From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: =?UTF-8?Q?[PATCH]=C2=A0Automatic?= elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:48:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: Emacs Bug Report Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.169808322319401 (code B ref -1); Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:48:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Oct 2023 17:47:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51588 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1quz15-00052r-2a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:47:03 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:41312) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1quz12-00052M-BB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:47:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quz0O-0002UF-Gq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:46:23 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quz0N-0002ii-1x for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:46:20 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507a55302e0so4876880e87.0 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:46:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698083175; x=1698687975; darn=gnu.org; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:from:sender:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fJPlknUZwkjyLeXn1X5uE19cZRyxWoauSdM8j03c+wY=; b=OFDRB9vB8eNGAOR9A59hJfDb54DGYxUsO1vqkN6ee9m0jheYLqBUYYrVGuPNOkwwo0 a5rSs0X8WoiysTb1NZYxw1RedfCc3UR9dRnLXdvyx+R3nS7w32GdIMKjIMAlGltjQzK0 KjZNUJGiJFXyhVkO28PumbP2DXb50M4l12Nb/FJQ56MzJiF7MjkmanqOXQU8lxU6swwr K66iBeLtuGlgn7cERCVTMOZnhDXcTeyvKrBb3EBh5sRZm4WDBCEDBZZ2L/y6NtrtrefE UDcfeT/XSZ8cr3S2wqTDdZcNFcD9CTXJlbLB55hi/DhcM4pgfXYrv3iapwbiKT1jbgeC 9FOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698083175; x=1698687975; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:from:sender :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fJPlknUZwkjyLeXn1X5uE19cZRyxWoauSdM8j03c+wY=; b=aGUWvpeXQXLqC8yWc6cyKYEXGi4JF8M4b1DiaId9AzE+jxc67diS4AjdaE/m7AMkdd O1I34wJcY7/c8MQ9I5ZdsggUdyT0jRaBf2ZUMmQzMRlN8v/1isE0aqtOXz6RVkelpWfQ F6rVkJ8j6jVGPqoO2WpFajwwBQnPXHJyOvBc1WEJvSxXgYB9svaAEBL+/3ROWJ2zDzAd jzVkEzHu5FwDpeFiTjgkqkfb4MqanGP/t7dNdX8qB4nGthH/ddcS42y44WN3NYPWS36h KGU5wgcKy8bZijdg06XJTLHNlGX9xxOSWCoUU9gp6O85ug7wyCN3l4dj+0QpUM8+/0y/ SvRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwYTaz7gzTqKbins96BhEn8QRZxcTuvVGJkkYXvzl8ABDfTuiVQ cmwk4Js/R7Wb6T9OU41M8Zlr7MxJ3U8EnA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEIzyZeWGq0BihzJtGnTOIqrhlqkiBKD0hZC4YIQrs+8InWMTAjORm13D3bsMNu+dMsu0E9Mg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:711:b0:507:a9b7:f071 with SMTP id b17-20020a056512071100b00507a9b7f071mr7027850lfs.1.1698083175468; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c188-150-165-235.bredband.tele2.se. [188.150.165.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m14-20020a056512358e00b00501c673e773sm1788053lfr.39.2023.10.23.10.46.14 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:46:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D3432800-D637-4F59-A33C-6BB3EE9E184F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Message-Id: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:46:14 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12f; envelope-from=mattias.engdegard@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) --Apple-Mail=_D3432800-D637-4F59-A33C-6BB3EE9E184F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This patch inserts the lexical cookie in new Elisp files automatically. It helps users by making it less likely that they forget to add it, and = eliminates some drudgery. Their code will be more future-safe, and more robust and performant here = and now. --Apple-Mail=_D3432800-D637-4F59-A33C-6BB3EE9E184F Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Automatic-Elisp-dialect-declaration-insertion.patch Content-Type: application/octet-stream; x-unix-mode=0644; name="0001-Automatic-Elisp-dialect-declaration-insertion.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46rom=201f046584a58da54b32b6be8c17d00c990453a177=20Mon=20Sep=2017=20= 00:00:00=202001=0AFrom:=20=3D?UTF-8?q?Mattias=3D20Engdeg=3DC3=3DA5rd?=3D=20= =0ADate:=20Sun,=2022=20Oct=202023=2016:25:28=20+0200=0A= Subject:=20[PATCH]=20Automatic=20Elisp=20dialect=20declaration=20= insertion=0A=0AInsert=20the=20`;;;=20-*-=20lexical-binding:t=20-*-`=20= cookie=20and=20set=0A`lexical-binding`=20to=20`t`=20when=20the=20user=20= visits=20a=20new=20Elisp=20file,=20unless=0Athis=20feature=20is=20= disabled.=20=20`auto-insert-mode`=20takes=20precedence.=0A=0A*=20= etc/NEWS:=20Announce.=0A*=20lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=20= (emacs-lisp-mode):=20Add=20hook.=0A(elisp-auto-dialect-declaration):=20= New=20defcustom.=0A(elisp--insert-auto-dialect-declaration):=20New=20= function.=0A---=0A=20etc/NEWS=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20|=2011=20+++++++++++=0A=20lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=20= |=2035=20++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-=0A=202=20files=20changed,=20= 45=20insertions(+),=201=20deletion(-)=0A=0Adiff=20--git=20a/etc/NEWS=20= b/etc/NEWS=0Aindex=20d0880669752..b87f51a134c=20100644=0A---=20= a/etc/NEWS=0A+++=20b/etc/NEWS=0A@@=20-797,6=20+797,17=20@@=20This=20= argument=20specifies=20the=20prettifying=20algorithm=20to=20use.=0A=20=0A= =20**=20Emacs=20Lisp=20mode=0A=20=0A+***=20Automatic=20Elisp=20dialect=20= declaration=20insertion.=0A+When=20visiting=20a=20new=20Elisp=20file,=20= Emacs=20will=20now=20automatically=20insert=20a=0A+';;;=20-*-=20= lexical-binding:=20t=20-*-'=20line=20to=20declare=20the=20modern=20Elisp=0A= +lexical-binding=20dialect,=20and=20set=20the=20'lexical-binding'=20= variable=0A+in=20the=20buffer=20to=20't'.=0A+=0A+This=20mechanism=20is=20= controlled=20by=20the=20new=20'elisp-auto-dialect-declaration'=0A+user=20= option.=20=20It=20will=20only=20insert=20a=20declaration=20into=20an=20= empty=20buffer:=0A+if=20the=20buffer=20already=20had=20text=20added=20by=20= means=20of=20'auto-insert-mode'=0A+then=20it=20will=20not=20do=20= anything.=0A+=0A=20---=0A=20***=20',@'=20now=20has=20'prefix'=20syntax.=0A= =20Previously,=20the=20'@'=20character,=20which=20normally=20has=20= 'symbol'=20syntax,=0Adiff=20--git=20a/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=20= b/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=0Aindex=20ff90a744ea3..8ac32ecd077=20= 100644=0A---=20a/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=0A+++=20= b/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=0A@@=20-363,7=20+363,40=20@@=20= emacs-lisp-mode=0A=20=20=20(add-hook=20'flymake-diagnostic-functions=20= #'elisp-flymake-checkdoc=20nil=20t)=0A=20=20=20(add-hook=20= 'flymake-diagnostic-functions=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20#'elisp-flymake-byte-compile=20nil=20t)=0A-=20=20(add-hook=20= 'context-menu-functions=20#'elisp-context-menu=2010=20t))=0A+=20=20= (add-hook=20'context-menu-functions=20#'elisp-context-menu=2010=20t)=0A+=20= =20;;=20Add=20this=20hook=20sufficient=20late=20to=20give=20other=20= hooks=20(like=20`auto-insert')=0A+=20=20;;=20the=20opportunity=20to=20= insert=20something=20with=20higher=20priority.=0A+=20=20(add-hook=20= 'find-file-hook=20#'elisp--insert-auto-dialect-declaration=2050=20t))=0A= +=0A+(defcustom=20elisp-auto-dialect-declaration=20'lexical=0A+=20=20= "Dialect=20declaration=20automatically=20inserted=20in=20new=20Elisp=20= buffers.=0A+The=20declaration=20is=20\";;;=20-*-=20lexical-binding:=20t=20= -*-\".=0A+It=20is=20only=20inserted=20when=20an=20empty=20non-existing=20= file=20is=20visited.=0A+Possible=20values=20are:=0A+=20=20`lexical'=20=20= declare=20use=20of=20the=20modern=20lexical=20binding=20dialect.=0A+=20=20= `nil'=20=20=20=20=20=20do=20not=20automatically=20insert=20any=20= declaration.=0A+=0A+If=20`auto-insert-mode'=20is=20used=20to=20put=20= something=20in=20the=20buffer=20instead,=0A+then=20no=20declaration=20is=20= inserted."=0A+=20=20:type=20'(choice=20(const=20:tag=20"Lexical=20= binding=20(modern)"=20lexical)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20(const=20:tag=20"No=20automatic=20declaration"=20nil))=0A+=20= =20:group=20'lisp=0A+=20=20:version=20"30.1")=0A+=0A+(defun=20= elisp--insert-auto-dialect-declaration=20()=0A+=20=20"Insert=20the=20= `elisp-auto-dialect-declaration'=20selection=20in=20a=20new=20empty=20= buffer.=0A+Otherwise,=20do=20nothing."=0A+=20=20(when=20(and=20(eq=20= elisp-auto-dialect-declaration=20'lexical)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20(not=20buffer-read-only)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20(zerop=20(buffer-size))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= ;;=20Don't=20modify=20a=20buffer=20corresponding=20to=20an=20existing=20= empty=20file.=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(not=20(and=20= buffer-file-name=20(file-exists-p=20buffer-file-name))))=0A+=20=20=20=20= (let=20((was-modified=20(buffer-modified-p)))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20= (insert=20";;;=20-*-=20lexical-binding:=20t=20-*-\n")=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20= (setq-local=20lexical-binding=20t)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20;;=20Mark=20the=20= buffer=20unmodified=20(unless=20it=20was=20modified=20before)=0A+=20=20=20= =20=20=20;;=20so=20that=20the=20user=20isn't=20bothered=20when=20killing=20= it=20or=20quitting=20Emacs.=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20(set-buffer-modified-p=20= was-modified))))=0A=20=0A=20;;=20Font-locking=20support.=0A=20=0A--=20=0A= 2.32.0=20(Apple=20Git-132)=0A=0A= --Apple-Mail=_D3432800-D637-4F59-A33C-6BB3EE9E184F-- From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: =?UTF-8?Q?[PATCH]=C2=A0Automatic?= elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:25:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169808548123448 (code B ref 66706); Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:25:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Oct 2023 18:24:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51643 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1quzbV-000668-2S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:24:41 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:9894) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1quzbP-00065n-LB for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:24:40 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 26B9E442B3B; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:24:00 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698085438; bh=f3Mo3fI6e3EE4pdxlgljO/rVGMKVwGoHJH3RbSPxDUw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=XnZPE862Y+jv5HTYgOTDrmf3b9jIHcI6qVA3BopXSSECminmdSyCFHsKPVOm+OQdE n4dp9Khkii11QU1mWMPt9ajFZeMYEBEm1hKMaRBBvu6+JbLRvw82DgZaQQkTDZzavw FchVoIyAKcoETpCoBi5NZpp5OTBFYZDIVgZmrzsxjclVSdyEaTCpcOaJMUaP0fRzEs DYVrQF3yHvl8LYZnljM6bzlruSr6a/WvIG/JpB3o5xMf2BZznf8+5AuEvhGj8cKnQc YKahK8kaoQq+cDIyQzyaXFfAFpnn9krZ+dcmgAwFF11jth2qy12UfKMjyCP2zwVvvq KZ8TWxy+Gclig== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id BA1B3442B3D; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:23:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A43281202C3; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:23:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> ("Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?="'s message of "Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:46:14 +0200") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:21:53 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.110 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > This patch inserts the lexical cookie in new Elisp files > automatically. It helps users by making it less likely that they > forget to add it, and eliminates some drudgery. Yes, please, > Their code will be more future-safe, and more robust and performant here and now. I wouldn't make any claim about "performant": there are important cases where we execute lexically scoped code more efficiently, but there are also cases (hopefully less important) where the reverse is true. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: =?UTF-8?Q?[PATCH]=C2=A0Automatic?= elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:46:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169808671925497 (code B ref 66706); Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:46:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Oct 2023 18:45:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51682 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1quzvT-0006dB-4r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:45:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48166) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1quzvQ-0006cv-8I for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:45:17 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quzur-0005ed-LW; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:44:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=9krUeeZT8vUdlKf5sZ7r1E+XIp9JkLhyrQPaRZRxcQE=; b=o0YMCkSW04YxXlm59ZDT rGhf5IYZhaqsAAFj1qbfDwl/VGuxh9gHYn+VTUMQsWgaEAleq8JzkUwXeEVrr1Ia3XE4fuZtewX0D SDrWMn1nKML/E+2jGDeMVaBzMqhd+NQ5c54KZ+xgSyKifzQvzAg5/ekSc6H1UtIW981RHrTsPzcUs LZSOqOfvrtXkPL8vBzUU0RNl7e7VU69kKUBNZpHuiqW69mDquLzKXNX7CTigh0HSJV2uqb3qeynjI GS7/n32fpi218k1CwXdomPRD1lZYWdL8dePn3B8ObH32A7Lv9S0hKaABFaP0Z4sD+f1hBgTLgw8Fz STyWfvZEPbEq/A==; Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 21:44:39 +0300 Message-Id: <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> (message from Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:46:14 +0200) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Mattias Engdegård > Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:46:14 +0200 > > This patch inserts the lexical cookie in new Elisp files automatically. > It helps users by making it less likely that they forget to add it, and eliminates some drudgery. > Their code will be more future-safe, and more robust and performant here and now. This could be an optional feature, but not the default. It is un-Emacs'y to insert stuff into user files or buffers without an explicit consent. We have several auto-insert features in Emacs, and they are all optional, so this one must be optional as well. Thanks. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:23:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii , Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16980889476902 (code B ref 66706); Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:23:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Oct 2023 19:22:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51719 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qv0VP-0001nG-4q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 15:22:27 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]:55504) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qv0VL-0001my-JK for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 15:22:25 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2b9338e4695so51313411fa.2 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:21:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698088908; x=1698693708; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=QXPJyetqldDZRo+4L3PMoB091BhlfKBwRfRVC2k6GqA=; b=RsGjTZ2FpfPw2jr4e3OhQgnQBVTrkdCcfP9wJo+KXfqcFx8DfmQfbPNFnd8ELqY8F8 og/im/zp+FOufm9/vvBeZcfARhFsLBG+u3Z5VsHlfnHYMgMnWHdvaYaR6BuSPJeaDTL7 nMSHh8FrGEcl3HgK1bKdtlvDiZ2AvFbY0nq0LUAc0ONkIDyOz8ReAo/x6/h7IG1+dD7c BdIIfqVHZ/T9ROH7sqnGTMglrAz365XbQpRIiTYpe2HjtuDCDgJUHw3rcErEmh6CWoPC 7kzLS/LoGbtc+pV81oCPuED0MwhJEQU1vR7GoXf9JHhAczFiMLJY1CCyuSiP+zH0WO3f t7eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698088908; x=1698693708; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=QXPJyetqldDZRo+4L3PMoB091BhlfKBwRfRVC2k6GqA=; b=jaNPB9RFKCcxCYC46CDOAf6HRHBj80DVAGKBahMfKV671BSgcA8SFAZ0+SfhXMZDHJ bk0Z38j6P4WhQKfr8vNxxHh+fL4g9u8wCOzAapf+zRi1lZEcZ9W4C4RPNAx3/RaE+sj0 E2lziZ12GCdtxeAvWoX8hbq/IURnGjrPjXqN9TxO6osESp4MaNPvcA+nwr9HPC8B4oQG KvmClDMJy94PpU+dW+rWorGM0IYCTpLpEmoauS1OcxPbVBKi658YZk341yKXmcE7kDs7 gBODk63zJVTfEZzZSTzhjYb+NAJOJjKVmcspgySpvOe4vPA2khROV50Cuffze3sULiE9 08rw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwBZIb7pnqtrt+7NzhGK75vCmjEz9ihRrf4x/LjvlNBKJ732DIB opRjHVKy2QDhFiMtva4MohiUnFJTFYYsWO/NcyI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEqNoyDy8Ete8oTAbn2ZP2E1BODF4RCp/Ka9tAz9r82WTQfC65v/nT40/NZ/GfNhFtzkV+/mxJV1Qiu84Hs0ZY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9a92:0:b0:2c5:106f:540f with SMTP id p18-20020a2e9a92000000b002c5106f540fmr8010192lji.43.1698088907960; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:21:47 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:21:47 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> This patch inserts the lexical cookie in new Elisp files automatically. >> It helps users by making it less likely that they forget to add it, and eliminates some drudgery. >> Their code will be more future-safe, and more robust and performant here and now. Sounds good to me. > This could be an optional feature, but not the default. It is > un-Emacs'y to insert stuff into user files or buffers without an > explicit consent. We have several auto-insert features in Emacs, and > they are all optional, so this one must be optional as well. Yeah, it's not something we usually do. But we also don't change Emacs Lisp in such a fundamental way very often (once every 40 years, give or take?). So I think veering from what we usually do is justified. I also note that this can only help and will never hurt users. If anyone happens to hate this, they can easily disable it. Whereas, on the other hand, making the feature optional makes it much less useful. So my vote would be in favor of this change. 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Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:01:08 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:01:08 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: control message for bug #66706 To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) severity 66706 wishlist quit From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 20:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Kangas Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16980924711362 (code B ref 66706); 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[188.150.165.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24-20020a2e3318000000b002bce87faca9sm1721150ljc.57.2023.10.23.13.20.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 22:20:30 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <80C933AA-E678-4A1D-B09A-AD31E5015AFF@gmail.com> References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) 23 okt. 2023 kl. 21.21 skrev Stefan Kangas : > Yeah, it's not something we usually do. But we also don't change = Emacs > Lisp in such a fundamental way very often (once every 40 years, give = or > take?). So I think veering from what we usually do is justified. It's actually a rather timid feature as language modes go. They are = supposed to act in their users' best interests, after all. > I also note that this can only help and will never hurt users. Right. This always informs our designs. The feature is carefully designed not to get in the way. It is not = opinionated: it does not add any other header, footer, copyright text, = preamble or anything else. Not including the cookie at all is the odd choice, and it is not = unreasonable having to type C-p C-k in that rare case. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 17:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Kangas Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169816873427453 (code B ref 66706); Tue, 24 Oct 2023 17:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2023 17:32:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56549 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvLGI-00078h-Bi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:32:14 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::136]:49600) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvLGF-00078S-DO for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:32:12 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507973f3b65so7501654e87.3 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698168695; x=1698773495; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=UXpepJGH2rKONY67R200kql3d8GWvKWbsfcF3jPJklg=; b=j82CAnFUSn9XhKnrPzLpyN043lZRM4RWgrz6vh4uzQb5NH1fO0zzrY4THkbP7xWHmK J/J90nx59ZMUeym8kq8v8OdW8PpY1as3k//W3C2pyMHvSipg6IumHTzghCMEiEZ3RMf3 VtblJHCAqqCa6Tp8iufODVkhy+4O+Epq/XvHkv1sCsUhHy7A7uWLbeiEqVhOWF+wdQdE 3FVLEMo5lBM998Y682Uid2zPg7YwKQaoYrcPMEefrXWVdL+pmAKFBt3v/ZjiYxCKaKXD iReCmN6vXvXRzZV6IldAwWdohRy8aLRnU4agzYah+AMyTgKkvPCdQRvQB+pJKiv4g+5w kdIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698168695; x=1698773495; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=UXpepJGH2rKONY67R200kql3d8GWvKWbsfcF3jPJklg=; b=eSTWH+MojuY5IoYHuNfLDcMkdN7PEVfohz9A+Yf2GrxzrSgAutkZ5OHjhb7DfgVfXj Q1oveG5sP9K1Nw9mYp5kZtf8+i2z2jND3bHs9wh19ICulp4+88NCk/Mk4oTIUkRyLAYP FfdbxNKIxwTf6JIQRJyakfYrzzGTnq6S607biZCCb0cKmIHdSDyW6eUkUcr9/S2M/pr5 use4PmhAEKjhC8IGHehYM3MWN0S0hn3hfu+hqIuLcrLx+Y1VhvCXK/TGR+uWVFUo9Kmb T5ZXlmy1kxc0efuC6N8m6YZZuAW5QEf74ViL2UOxigSfnFzGnDtn57TI645pQ2NAu0aK BjCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyPeO+wtu9TvTXz7bn9ZGFCHpfXKg8Zf348XhInXFd3vBy0nRFq 0Gc4+HZE0LImxpG3Tb4XrGE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IECEohs6YgAG3srJguavPc+KjVi9yzjB/JCns7DiIrQrcaFDczlGumTwACO4NudZq+8OSa6gA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:48c5:b0:507:9701:26ff with SMTP id er5-20020a05651248c500b00507970126ffmr8370169lfb.31.1698168695327; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 10:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c188-150-165-235.bredband.tele2.se. [188.150.165.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v12-20020a056512348c00b0050318721b62sm2213165lfr.6.2023.10.24.10.31.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Oct 2023 10:31:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Message-Id: <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_99AF7CD7-EDAA-4EEB-A008-E149862B67F9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:31:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --Apple-Mail=_99AF7CD7-EDAA-4EEB-A008-E149862B67F9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is an updated patch, now with a test. Not sure if this belongs in the manual, but if so it's probably in the = Elisp manual ('Selecting Lisp Dialect'), right? --Apple-Mail=_99AF7CD7-EDAA-4EEB-A008-E149862B67F9 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Automatic-Elisp-dialect-declaration-insertion.patch Content-Type: application/octet-stream; x-unix-mode=0644; name="0001-Automatic-Elisp-dialect-declaration-insertion.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46rom=2066270adb8cd546f4839fa6a476312063e01b7fa0=20Mon=20Sep=2017=20= 00:00:00=202001=0AFrom:=20=3D?UTF-8?q?Mattias=3D20Engdeg=3DC3=3DA5rd?=3D=20= =0ADate:=20Sun,=2022=20Oct=202023=2016:25:28=20+0200=0A= Subject:=20[PATCH]=20Automatic=20Elisp=20dialect=20declaration=20= insertion=0A=0AInsert=20the=20`;;;=20-*-=20lexical-binding:t=20-*-`=20= cookie=20and=20set=0A`lexical-binding`=20to=20`t`=20when=20the=20user=20= visits=20a=20new=20Elisp=20file,=20unless=0Athis=20feature=20is=20= disabled.=20=20`auto-insert-mode`=20takes=20precedence.=0A=0A*=20= etc/NEWS:=20Announce.=0A*=20lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=20= (emacs-lisp-mode):=20Add=20hook.=0A(elisp-auto-dialect-declaration):=20= New=20defcustom.=0A(elisp--insert-auto-dialect-declaration):=20New=20= function.=0A*=20test/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode-tests.el=0A= (elisp-auto-dialect-declaration):=20New=20test.=0A---=0A=20etc/NEWS=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20|=2011=20++++++++=0A=20lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20|=2035=20++++++++++++++++++++++++-=0A=20= test/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode-tests.el=20|=2025=20++++++++++++++++++=0A=20= 3=20files=20changed,=2070=20insertions(+),=201=20deletion(-)=0A=0Adiff=20= --git=20a/etc/NEWS=20b/etc/NEWS=0Aindex=208becfae7bb9..d09abd42313=20= 100644=0A---=20a/etc/NEWS=0A+++=20b/etc/NEWS=0A@@=20-804,6=20+804,17=20= @@=20This=20argument=20specifies=20the=20prettifying=20algorithm=20to=20= use.=0A=20=0A=20**=20Emacs=20Lisp=20mode=0A=20=0A+***=20Automatic=20= Elisp=20dialect=20declaration=20insertion.=0A+When=20visiting=20a=20new=20= Elisp=20file,=20Emacs=20will=20now=20automatically=20insert=20a=0A+';;;=20= -*-=20lexical-binding:=20t=20-*-'=20line=20to=20declare=20the=20modern=20= Elisp=0A+lexical-binding=20dialect,=20and=20set=20the=20= 'lexical-binding'=20variable=0A+in=20the=20buffer=20to=20't'.=0A+=0A= +This=20mechanism=20is=20controlled=20by=20the=20new=20= 'elisp-auto-dialect-declaration'=0A+user=20option.=20=20It=20will=20only=20= insert=20a=20declaration=20into=20an=20empty=20buffer:=0A+if=20the=20= buffer=20already=20had=20text=20added=20by=20means=20of=20= 'auto-insert-mode'=0A+then=20it=20will=20not=20do=20anything.=0A+=0A=20= ---=0A=20***=20',@'=20now=20has=20'prefix'=20syntax.=0A=20Previously,=20= the=20'@'=20character,=20which=20normally=20has=20'symbol'=20syntax,=0A= diff=20--git=20a/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=20= b/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=0Aindex=20ff90a744ea3..8ac32ecd077=20= 100644=0A---=20a/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=0A+++=20= b/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.el=0A@@=20-363,7=20+363,40=20@@=20= emacs-lisp-mode=0A=20=20=20(add-hook=20'flymake-diagnostic-functions=20= #'elisp-flymake-checkdoc=20nil=20t)=0A=20=20=20(add-hook=20= 'flymake-diagnostic-functions=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20#'elisp-flymake-byte-compile=20nil=20t)=0A-=20=20(add-hook=20= 'context-menu-functions=20#'elisp-context-menu=2010=20t))=0A+=20=20= (add-hook=20'context-menu-functions=20#'elisp-context-menu=2010=20t)=0A+=20= =20;;=20Add=20this=20hook=20sufficient=20late=20to=20give=20other=20= hooks=20(like=20`auto-insert')=0A+=20=20;;=20the=20opportunity=20to=20= insert=20something=20with=20higher=20priority.=0A+=20=20(add-hook=20= 'find-file-hook=20#'elisp--insert-auto-dialect-declaration=2050=20t))=0A= +=0A+(defcustom=20elisp-auto-dialect-declaration=20'lexical=0A+=20=20= "Dialect=20declaration=20automatically=20inserted=20in=20new=20Elisp=20= buffers.=0A+The=20declaration=20is=20\";;;=20-*-=20lexical-binding:=20t=20= -*-\".=0A+It=20is=20only=20inserted=20when=20an=20empty=20non-existing=20= file=20is=20visited.=0A+Possible=20values=20are:=0A+=20=20`lexical'=20=20= declare=20use=20of=20the=20modern=20lexical=20binding=20dialect.=0A+=20=20= `nil'=20=20=20=20=20=20do=20not=20automatically=20insert=20any=20= declaration.=0A+=0A+If=20`auto-insert-mode'=20is=20used=20to=20put=20= something=20in=20the=20buffer=20instead,=0A+then=20no=20declaration=20is=20= inserted."=0A+=20=20:type=20'(choice=20(const=20:tag=20"Lexical=20= binding=20(modern)"=20lexical)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20(const=20:tag=20"No=20automatic=20declaration"=20nil))=0A+=20= =20:group=20'lisp=0A+=20=20:version=20"30.1")=0A+=0A+(defun=20= elisp--insert-auto-dialect-declaration=20()=0A+=20=20"Insert=20the=20= `elisp-auto-dialect-declaration'=20selection=20in=20a=20new=20empty=20= buffer.=0A+Otherwise,=20do=20nothing."=0A+=20=20(when=20(and=20(eq=20= elisp-auto-dialect-declaration=20'lexical)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20(not=20buffer-read-only)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20(zerop=20(buffer-size))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= ;;=20Don't=20modify=20a=20buffer=20corresponding=20to=20an=20existing=20= empty=20file.=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(not=20(and=20= buffer-file-name=20(file-exists-p=20buffer-file-name))))=0A+=20=20=20=20= (let=20((was-modified=20(buffer-modified-p)))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20= (insert=20";;;=20-*-=20lexical-binding:=20t=20-*-\n")=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20= (setq-local=20lexical-binding=20t)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20;;=20Mark=20the=20= buffer=20unmodified=20(unless=20it=20was=20modified=20before)=0A+=20=20=20= =20=20=20;;=20so=20that=20the=20user=20isn't=20bothered=20when=20killing=20= it=20or=20quitting=20Emacs.=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20(set-buffer-modified-p=20= was-modified))))=0A=20=0A=20;;=20Font-locking=20support.=0A=20=0Adiff=20= --git=20a/test/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode-tests.el=20= b/test/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode-tests.el=0Aindex=20= 4fa869c773f..2a18b204ef1=20100644=0A---=20= a/test/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode-tests.el=0A+++=20= b/test/lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode-tests.el=0A@@=20-1131,5=20+1131,30=20@@=20= test-indentation=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20(emacs-lisp-mode)=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(indent-region=20(point-min)=20= (point-max)))))=0A=20=0A+(defun=20elisp-mode-tests--insert-gibberish=20= ()=0A+=20=20(insert=20"gibberish\n")=0A+=20=20(set-buffer-modified-p=20= nil))=0A+=0A+(ert-deftest=20elisp-auto-dialect-declaration=20()=0A+=20=20= (let=20((file=20"does-not-exist.el"))=0A+=20=20=20=20(should-not=20= (file-exists-p=20file))=0A+=20=20=20=20;;=20Try=20with=20= `elisp-auto-dialect-declaration'=20off=20and=20on.=0A+=20=20=20=20= (dolist=20(enabled=20'(nil=20lexical))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20(let=20= ((elisp-auto-dialect-declaration=20enabled))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= ;;=20Try=20with=20a=20competing=20insertion=20that=20uses=20the=20= `find-file-hook'.=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(dolist=20(auto-ins=20'(nil=20= t))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(let=20((find-file-hook=0A+=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(if=20auto-ins=0A+=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(cons=20= 'elisp-mode-tests--insert-gibberish=20find-file-hook)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20find-file-hook)))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20(save-current-buffer=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20(find-file=20file)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20(should=20(equal=20(buffer-string)=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(cond=20(auto-ins=20= "gibberish\n")=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(enabled=20";;;=20-*-=20= lexical-binding:=20t=20-*-\n")=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(t=20= ""))))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20(should=20(equal=20= (buffer-modified-p)=20nil))=0A+=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20= (kill-buffer))))))))=0A+=0A=20(provide=20'elisp-mode-tests)=0A=20;;;=20= elisp-mode-tests.el=20ends=20here=0A--=20=0A2.32.0=20(Apple=20Git-132)=0A= =0A= --Apple-Mail=_99AF7CD7-EDAA-4EEB-A008-E149862B67F9-- From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 18:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.1698171936558 (code B ref 66706); Tue, 24 Oct 2023 18:26:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2023 18:25:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56606 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvM5v-00008u-P7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:25:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50914) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvM5s-00008c-Ee for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:25:33 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvM5J-0008JP-7W; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:24:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=Pzv43hAD2P5u9Ax8rX+S0T4OqfhOWzV5uUoEuT8eJLU=; b=C3+rgKv+ilmkxRcnnWlV A9tGUbMTyx5tfvejrDekFPFAuvKMXF7/pla2OJSj5nR/AOoHWJatBCHq1sc7APsEFsTWDMdi4gM95 Vs/zirB9sJ6ajufCWzoFgP/mmOevfSAQ+Bx9Y4BzNjlE45ucDIdxtXGkevqJmnymtDPMgxG9ibD92 SYmDTbXrUTO6OSIpIo3HVCktNUgRQA1VoFHD9MgYRAB9ae/Z05DpFyWSvS7dyHohMm3CbjWUsJDmk yU0Oye7oMjlx6za2O+YeDczB5GwpsM2mMdH9JbQyvgsjJUlLsqdEYs99EX4wN0JLN/TWN504YPzCd TLowUukngv60jw==; Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:25:02 +0300 Message-Id: <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> (message from Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:31:33 +0200) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Mattias Engdegård > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:31:33 +0200 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , > 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > Stefan Monnier > > Here is an updated patch, now with a test. As mentioned earlier, please make the automatic insertion be off by default, and please reflect that in the NEWS entry. Thanks. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:23:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169817536616837 (code B ref 66706); Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:23:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2023 19:22:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56641 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvMzF-0004NV-VV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:22:46 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:60890) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvMz9-0004NC-QA for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:22:44 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 4CEB5444930; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:22:04 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698175322; bh=aKtZxoMyLGkKFuaYrXjHtVNRCijzr/ndu3N9BT6Uu+o=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=hxvsAzpOOVt3uTa1rketL6vdsT+PLf4pJ/Ob2oTcrufARSUuV8S+GBxu/aUg1b2iF IZSQBFdXlV2PfNtY1ED48UU3Cz68pf9aH1FA64MTvJmurFDwqTEvcbS3M5Mbtx782o qn4br5BzP7hSeKJbRV6BakxtOqdixYt0o72E2aP3X1EhXAriTQ2ZByw8m9HTnN3loz sBtfTKSvs+mW9B58+QzKT0RPkmzDmMmP9xAAQS4Vb1MmXdKlWGy5jumFgpvnHorEUb TZAJA98dzxn5xBNellWB3jyvetIYTSGJ3sQ/D1qjqmc8QNEHUa17lA+o94KpmnG9R9 llBV/P0UowUVQ== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id C766844492E; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B166A1202EA; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:22:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:25:02 +0300") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:19:46 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.108 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > As mentioned earlier, please make the automatic insertion be off by > default, and please reflect that in the NEWS entry. That makes the patch completely useless. There's already an opt-in solution (via `auto-insert`), so I'd oppose this patch if it's OFF by default since it's just added complexity. The whole point of this patch is to help those users who don't know better. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:23:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier , Eli Zaretskii Cc: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169817896523338 (code B ref 66706); Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:23:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2023 20:22:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56766 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvNvI-00064M-W8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:22:45 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::230]:59865) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvNvE-000643-Ab for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:22:44 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2c5028e5b88so71308691fa.3 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:22:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698178924; x=1698783724; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0sAsXVfXzCqtvit4vk9oLCI+XeiisyukFCJ2H88caXA=; b=T+2e4pOvQ9U/Ti4IQUpr/lskDQReDXB2K4OTysHRhDHtlKR1/02EG82iDdmySDqeYj TPYQfAkmHVAlPgsuyn3G3Lmt9eVKA2GBu7RCs+JOfZrmMnNa4FqYVUJOXr2IJW6crz/b wbfhH48mgSkRLdW5YcCkCaxGC9awTEsuZlyvSKNO3MxYijEviDiavv5byqQCc9vtPNpy tG3GQmIPrCUx34jgg6EHm73/kKW/+XWaaUxVH3RonsuNWFso5quySvnF83IPwpu6mjgU 3rRfdbSuzNwD+BzxzOdivJUZ2DJpmGAZ+aqpsziw2KFTEv8TF/LfM4Pi/SimYXXECUKc nh+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698178924; x=1698783724; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0sAsXVfXzCqtvit4vk9oLCI+XeiisyukFCJ2H88caXA=; b=IGf27H/3eoU5lCW2TdD+qsSxV9iJia3tfm2WJq9OcZUeSCBaVxY5TdWYgXo9ZcymXq Bs5Jg9McSkZgnv/FBlpAqii3x5MIl5EJNHlC5U6B91pstwXLOuNTgQc5xach+BPeLHSd /J1nsU0BSn9lliGx/tBi8U+/iIvY/pGERefnbFGsQcS/u70yr6iThdUNtwxqs9LycNZi iPboNUBQNZqLUGlhZrIjKleuJUGayQN1O3tYp64ASF/iX7X6Dw9KomhJ2WKU4IkcKvjT 9SpSr9Kjef3WEJBAVpl7WaWhjRMVtylR9nJt/y1lfjVQeyY2Yao+iEc93zv13sF596X1 Rmpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YztUJVS67KuOn/68ZUcqW+kTpBTGYsl9OS+b9Opil1w6WpNFMy7 5ljO59yAzDXAzSMiaqb4sBU9+3pTwJhBjiDZ+zQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHeYXO8Uo2xoyIfg1rFuPV9BzJidYUFCtKVkXO+1Phcg4WWOALpUO851Qd4T0MEovbxLSQBE3s6H2SisskL1sU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9051:0:b0:2c5:19e9:422c with SMTP id n17-20020a2e9051000000b002c519e9422cmr9200840ljg.24.1698178924027; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:22:03 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:22:03 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: > That makes the patch completely useless. There's already an opt-in > solution (via `auto-insert`), so I'd oppose this patch if it's OFF by > default since it's just added complexity. Indeed. I also can't see any downsides to making it non-optional. I think we should mainly ask ourselves if this feature will help users. In my opinion, the answer is clearly yes, in almost all cases. For the rest, a very small minority indeed, the patch provides a user option. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:01:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169819563720440 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:01:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 01:00:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56914 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvSGD-0005Jc-92 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:00:37 -0400 Received: from sonic303-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.148]:39965) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvSG8-0005JG-Na for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:00:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698195597; bh=C5ELL/Kgs5MtsF+ZZ7CucKE2WmmdrWOM32NPfFzblZg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=Jl7IAkxyDu3l/42QzkFfPcpLflk/uUSTdLarYQe8zWj6TIX0+ws50SBVaOnjw1OZvPgVZqUdG2SjHIzzpk1ebzCUnp4/Kv7E44vxp/VKBN9591omL5yr4N4tsepDuAGebz3l/IFSkEIVbtQ8VBNdho6/JtA2vXlbteVJJVGnodeTgfNH/LPLllvtqoktWzEtFWsmjRpY6F6/SpYgVHFeT1hRQwEJUFB7mt/YAtXc2LhbhQpdJZaC6mC6da3iZ9rxbY+ZzvRZXH7Gqi0ziz/oxH3NT9YuH0kfYglSFMDL/CGmV4grAeAFD0Xlzau3ihyG7JfjP8a9dnb+2EyPLBij6Q== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698195597; bh=bVHgXdHcx4mzGj4jPsNnHlK9jJKxHakjlZRXDMbwHwe=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=LOa1WiXdcI3wfqK4hxVKgXZGw6fxz07uuaVSwMfn9m2b9OHFeYLStlkYk7IA7lEXHyjm9kcJCqg8sEh0JmIrFumrFxk3IT2RqDj5GcMkhzgoa4loO6h2JCD1K6kK1jJWDJcZuiNKR18Ic2tzvb3zih3Bh/iLLYJH3FxB+YFfw+UDDUJ43+DB3qKvAvQ/KBFwNDonYL3iWX2VfbGYwXsxVM5xUNcaPRfi1B2TrD0pa/OKYcLAU3+sx1D59tFu9CHzKfrgj/6plyPXN2zOV5MrenVDA4JbMQUOR+6JF3G+zWcu6v3EVaKf2B7sn8/2ZvMY0tquZ2Swhf7rwWeNa0COXA== X-YMail-OSG: lYtZk00VM1m33_oQwtAxqOloOVSdMWgx5c2aY6CF7YgeKU7.wxI5r1yPX0GkoPS k9Sx47i1_DND4XqjBK1puTL1kG_SQmj_sLW.1ZxXiC1iQw9Yw636_BsWEkUa0voqqvLp.O07e58R sAzMaI7LmtrawceY_uLahyF1I_OUT4087ZOE1oL6vQWjGRKGyiJzWU2AsGbj8HdPU0cc2GWITeRd 4JZsiB4EylYFM26y8cFtwG0A2JgWL_IanuWPN0Y.M7l.L3TF8kb8SitWYjQXdS9cEmyabJy62HFA ltBbN8ma6k0MKaFVOhCk5AeAQEOTBYAl0OgGXlGWPo.oVLSqxi7_2AtYfPjSqfMAviNd0kBapLL4 xByRjWrEnfIYrx3Db93inmV1KwfCSdSLoZrtLPJlUz.qRPiyjFV.NyOxy2eS4L6WH56WyOfn6bso 5FKqmDHBgqIbx7fWztGo5VjGW_rlQfb1R87J6IXJvMI6L5XHTjhScX4nA1.o9gi16_0s9EOmwepB BxXbVq9Xy8tD7UIH_Axuzog2C32HbjwUNN8pwSrpNNRD.XM6jHHKERTbLofCuwk5gskmtcuok3lZ _tmH.X7BlPnfKE9ce4JQ.12QWCuK..gW9v5nkDNv2JZlQHXK_gtDRJD.03KYf6jX6iAHHYxw48qG Mm3vC1UPIjeiMPUZVtn_p6Zn1lDx4pFMI02L2wOPUhaWPIRcfI9L_scEysrP8zPdKZeDK8y5sEzq E4svhK4R86oyX_UGTRBOhI._zNZtVtt9hQQKW5DBW26K0vXcX7VAR5rWRv4HtO.6TG4Osgl87GBd cY2b7M7uksvm5_byYug_ql4spVwfQR2Mels0EDOI0bIAO7VrpO8C5W2zaJDD6T7I1shYsg2IV1ye HOqJziPIvRxHlXA8AiVG_4Mv91XkUlNIr2jEMrlSnlIvKwehd.EiQOQ6n2iRcTDXJ1QgSW4eTKK0 AM9RYyAAs3DUs.6NdjhSRAwfQTmv.5DXkFVx.sTWjQEpJu7tibXk5grp2cdewHBU8Vb8aWOCEC5H e.5SYApbk.v5wEyyldy1uj0mUdx5CwrfHB8La8TSU0.OQOK4qwq9tP613VW2CGSduBYRiuLhAOaJ wCH7EUTWE6_HclaAR5ffe4g3Gd_YEzliC.wPOahAvgD_pnpObO0eH1PrZ219FPxGP7IRHTO1HfHC RDkJYGdBhl6ECgHokJitpE8ZuLQCPRg8NbougihQK3qaGNcBrxAYGRvsguu5t5dW59JvbmUEGitr BhpvrQ3vxRRqw9ny9uZCRs1HcHJzhpIOJzVdfMu0wipAYPtNou2wskryxtIqRyu9DJ5Ip54pzPJj .unbMEZeIM_c6MJf8FdRjnnHW2WJW8kihqn7oxWNE7qPiKvSl7jxksZ.kzMYAE4xHgLlHMYuA0Kw g5bTihgngFskZ8JMhSYWl9N6DeYcG1HDwyxJN1qKljHzzYOIQjyA4L6msEq3hZql02tBzMZOVarT O1Uic20kwD6InCRCz519TTOkUorTIYgBjsSHf353SW7zN92L2Ia9ZIZb0XG.YoE3BtB80zv1.0kr xLlr1WLbg3O27YlNe3jzaUa.2ujWg2qRDHfbQf0ZGBMLIOLxuqKjdhxvIC8sBx1bN1MjW1A5T8Ly dKoW2cKn6_gbp3eEa1rD.vmD8hY_S.dGNBu7SJpVuE4Ll4yrM9mUX.4d4UQnzNqkX3DV.lDP2Qzu ujp379brOoAJcH2UvxNiQ8QrnA86FjihwNSmodif4IWj8J8kP9aqoWDsDdAY3EO9an8DEmYrkmpt 7RB_noN1aTIvee5_NZ5f8xciDzO_LnPSSwh76AQjiZTt5Cjw6JyX7ouPrb7QMBlJcQRDIlafYsZX 8BAffvSiGBbzvAH91yjbPjCILMDTRWY7hoU2d3BT41MueeJUnheUdJRsrzG4OnKoXc9yvyjgneaC QnjPVbttaVvyxT4S6PwQCgMu0EG6v1kOhr5OwNcKw7BZFWGIYKiDn_NW5xCRp7zgT.UiMkSNMK78 C22PsecDJ0Zi2Tqbe_OfZT7w4WVbhm._GADDRNNkV5_4Ea5wq2jVtuQukWU.G.3w5VfuqYBclsGs WMTIUOJFGsKTv6nacLPSk7YEFAEBTfRROKpK4_0v_5Rfe0sFZ5PIaU9RGkh9P94T8DzlhStiT2CS yXPHzVRUq4Nvc4J1oFrsFc2CmMNbwM2SV8rQ4pdTjDvmWOOXf1Ox7iP5VuWjfXOKPb0EDbQtNZkR sDqmppvTy0_ROcU.8f93hLLHaAGYTfXh1Lnbu8ncU6JlYMfIX1YBh6fuAZW2Nof8- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 9cef4440-c267-46b8-8693-2aa8312c53a6 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 00:59:57 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-57f7997989-rvbd2 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 42c8de1f2ee84e0744aabc8cd2aa0c76; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 00:59:50 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:19:46 -0400") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:59:45 +0800 Message-ID: <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1626 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: >> As mentioned earlier, please make the automatic insertion be off by >> default, and please reflect that in the NEWS entry. > > That makes the patch completely useless. There's already an opt-in > solution (via `auto-insert`), so I'd oppose this patch if it's OFF by > default since it's just added complexity. > > The whole point of this patch is to help those users who don't > know better. > > > Stefan I want this off by default. We teach users to enable lexical binding in the Lisp introduction and a myriad of other places; inserting lexical binding cookies is not "the icing on the cake", but a gesture that implies we should override the judgement of our users, and are willing to browbeat them into abiding by such notions of ours. Similar measures taken by other software bespeaks the existence of a sense of superiority in their developers; doubtless, they think it beyond their users to read several pages of documentation pertaining to lexical binding, and to make from that an informed decision. Users who know what lexical-binding controls will enable it without any wheedling, should they so desire. Users who don't or won't will delete the cookie, then repine about its presence; quite justly at that, for software which holds its users in such low regard is nothing except impertinent. We never insert text to enforce our conceptions of good practice in any major mode. Such is the first step down a very precipitous slope, which culminates in the adoption of the haughty attitude that other software has seized upon with particular zeal. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:22:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169819688722488 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:22:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 01:21:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56944 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvSaM-0005qd-Dg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:21:27 -0400 Received: from sonic315-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.147]:35894) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvSaG-0005qM-JE for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 21:21:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698196845; bh=Drn2FQkVyPpTZltVaDV5KEshWEebwSxxEdWUMWzKYF0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=A60pVxdN9ZMXMaUyVEGPjWtVgdj46hK9mdlbCObTPbIDzXkQBR5G0a42w1pZE6uCItk1S3RayuUqoha5er+nuK8Qxs7T3d2J807Sb+sWHkV10u55xAp4lCvR6Ea86Uubs9T5zBmpx9tXirnSmafJpgyXcll+2xlI3mPO3DVEBty8ex19MT9B9fY6s7QJaBl+iTuPX+82RIQI35J1YLLohZJUjop5tn+qIm1WlE0OBTy7LbYw06aIUe6vhY36L4Ka5Gfe0Mh9TF107v/MI+PEPHOZO0HUKvUKGJTmruy4vYQEdRAMaQFa1jggk8ikub6lBoxGqGSD9rSy9qhh4YnVqg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698196845; bh=wuqU4gIbE2PTyr59FeohWEDcSueCnbiNhPSVEjNB+9d=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=e6N7rApf4Mz8i7jyVsxTxQdrTENG2kNkpAr63p8f7JIKLZKVhzn0Rr8hroXLVPSELAlTK37yxLYbKdHtZfSuWxVdu3yqYpmZOcVsPcOo7/Hmxx8mSnxwM2coZk7Ufa47kegpz4fhMLzokC8bvN6s3av9ePULq6tjuf3ggd5rz/T6scaLoFJBGXAMrkaG1ra7FbCatkhiKub4cEwd9Qnnztca06kuvkMHVU33WgZxkl3sQ9RGvmrxWXLIiVcT5cdOcsmJAmjgUfU94rsmeEA9Lw8OXo+bBPgih2iorowCPi6UFnxJ7TQLtROZxOaMJbJwStTTR81D0b2b7vU03zkclw== X-YMail-OSG: hB5t2M0VM1n6TbhJmful9SybOqPV9dHcZ14LnuaciaoxTm7NiT475GYo5Sn4emY JsmucE5l9Gcv72jx6VjiD_CSOHiea5mY5818Rr8qsBd5yQPbzl.NRhOD.BLt192ABo_xwey_h81y SAD9EKtrelkKUD_VB.Yy7irOGEUS9I4zYmXo35rCiwUh6j4pTsQRdmo40l8YMcu9DU6lJEfw2f67 TQ6VE7SS4tkZwg95ugsEthcc.b4jdG7WianOvjZIf3Cx9JB3zjLJwDLTN_KztltiBTUmDQNCXpzB xQcqqX2OJWqehIiFKr2z2ch3iXwrKGFTUoS9tP9nDCGWlhHrIKv0u299HhDFaVv1YUful..ZOwh3 ms4nvV_ZzODIishbOop71VaeIgyKG2eXJG6IGGI7C0bcDpSisgr8DktdJf4AcVY6qz2eiNg312oJ POn_q8GwAF1PF6ca1gAOi4THUW9RRYZIe43.PpzWBawLs2hC3MduFbNRiA2gwDtFNDbS3nUogyZ9 ssLx6.NiIsY3iD1DzT8X3x_NU60sO4pZhWSSunqqajuQiw7OP9YyaU82TZqq3OddThmQ1CeBizGG hpHDH.QLdyLdO5czc493V82ddjoeTxmSiF8KYiYrmjtp8a4KSD2by.nzUSl0Cxtf0r0bFpSjlHg8 3XJGMMN3JNH5XSYAZIsKIwiKtmvhJIZI6yuK92vj3hYDw448yJZRQHC4H0hqVb4TgzHNE0HvHAaX ZLyYuTcMLDF9RDJQpnImzXf2u34p8vA_PbHFLpidCHEwAApKzIcHy0SFxe363cnMJn.0Egqg6fO9 .u6sfdpFuw8T7m04wOBWaMrQ.Fi063lOuLk1lGRyT2hAv3qkJ42lGQUAR_.SwTkyH5isRc0HsmfA jb6UAW3uSSl.A8aJXN_vqWnXyonBz.I.wOZLblo7Ri9bylwNu1FPAY539EdkFXTKLR5m8q22.oP5 0JAvxkWvLxjnLWwVgBepPfLHkAnmmGvxJEytqRmOeCeMdjPR41.5vLbkTBKgyNBeF5N4m.hfFUHR NN8pg0s1MQ4Jsv6H.ggl4eY1JNyF8k7j6kr8Ov.rEGt.EPkcIK.lhj7EhZ.RF1wtPXgd0ijCcRTP ZdF7divmQCH9WyMRndQWPerDEaAdmqKZPq7SXy8LED4DewNFMANl1RVY.ZDu8Uad56bBcV0nfk1e TPQPbqugP9ZmIOFihkZZm8iBarhEyIfHvspz4nwi47TM9QadPxV703uFba_uuxDknXh8C.QE27Qz vLeg.toQ5ONO7ex3gOCwbx1YnRSXQI.ispN.SVJbOafwAMK2mD6wbRvEVj.fSPc1Y7wDTUKpXDv1 fwlYAZfw8buyCoMVPf0kcwqvOMCFfSfhHMo.DP57R_baaOUqkHPPWB9Tz_x2KQkbLqCmzRM7lIFN .dcVzwz.bcXTIyJinjxPTGMt4_RIFkmWAqjRluLpf6ZxY0VgTerbLvj29kb75Qz8Bu2eG51ldRny rpHR2unskqJJ.v5idTDtPVmxTSo7lu__loLtk4.wEozSOjmGpcBrkI675zeUT.I_zfFcc9UpghfO LHZFjjhWN6bypNlCqx3yRXL7EcIafop9McDl678kgUY_9LENnB4OPiwy88rqGUBNdDyp3JT9OLl1 YBw8Jqaaali_siUxYONTmDIKCzyhXDZSafpNwyHv2G0v0jS5_P0bcIbIH9b.84Ve8LEF2oT5gOoZ OeuIeOgmXxKWTuCeMmiJk8Q3fR0j5._ipoCSjWbEp0tPRiR0FsS9VdiEEH6Zt7A5qP8IOSuQZD0C .36iN0su46EP4wcp3dRQi6J6fbKOo31cp55QGREW6Z24TsJ_Fk3j86j.xaqyi4sSdDQDQmrismYO TNA9IvOO2pbeZymE_0r517HHgTS2x3RGu2yAk1st4jMF_8tkmh07PGz_SBxVrT398KokW14HlxnB DPl1jd0mFVXySGCd7qTAEeBkyYgb9dRaJvUWQrQroea_hkmrZp43EjfJUyN_cUJAbpeBDbdy2t1f sgbBkuIdYGrQhzYfMVp1z2WJ2nEm4HTtyBYQWKYYQ5esun34_Rr7pCcgLpk3fizVJjmkQKNC1qU. pkZYYi8ls.BnduueCbAb1bihpjkujx.Bdv0L2ujwe38UGUppGHSyf.Dzs3KphlUdIXV5D3ng.w06 vOXAbTXl5eldXCfP8_IdvY26errY6ZZSTeoERIpFr5Wy3MBBWtcAXBDMrvRP8pR2okZRtzaU8qWW Vo_6oibJ5SFwcTD0eCPiOCcQlfZk8Mk0Kz5FQI30rpcGfnLJEwN5Y9D0kdwqv8dGhKNU- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: fec7281b-21d3-4fb0-91da-14adf2593d55 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:20:45 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-57f7997989-fcsf4 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f1aa48d8c8f40641582e4c14266a606c; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:20:40 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:59:45 +0800") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:20:35 +0800 Message-ID: <87lebr1org.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1714 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Po Lu writes: > I want this off by default. We teach users to enable lexical binding in > the Lisp introduction and a myriad of other places; inserting lexical I was mistaken here. Lexical binding is briefly mentioned as non-default behavior. So why are we attempting to remedy this pitfall of the novice in Emacs Lisp mode by inserting a feature hitherto _undocumented_ in our manual for the uninitiated? Everything suggest to me that documenting lexical binding in the manual is the proper course of action. > binding cookies is not "the icing on the cake", but a gesture that > implies we should override the judgement of our users, and are willing > to browbeat them into abiding by such notions of ours. > > Similar measures taken by other software bespeaks the existence of a > sense of superiority in their developers; doubtless, they think it > beyond their users to read several pages of documentation pertaining to > lexical binding, and to make from that an informed decision. > > Users who know what lexical-binding controls will enable it without any > wheedling, should they so desire. Users who don't or won't will delete > the cookie, then repine about its presence; quite justly at that, for > software which holds its users in such low regard is nothing except > impertinent. > > We never insert text to enforce our conceptions of good practice in any > major mode. Such is the first step down a very precipitous slope, which > culminates in the adoption of the haughty attitude that other software > has seized upon with particular zeal. I recognize this argument is grounded wholly on principle, but principle itself is as important a consideration as any other. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 02:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Po Lu Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169819932826842 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 02:03:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 02:02:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56972 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvTDk-0006ys-1s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:02:08 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:45900) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvTDf-0006yK-0N for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:02:06 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 56CD9803B1; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:27 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698199285; bh=KK0xGyLB0lBmus9YkhWy1Qv/8iCiLOGjMC3/egMCam4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=nWAOmpbWTfPett9dpK/4G1S/cZk70CW2dJdc9so7hzoyI4KH1ee9hPnBuuv3fibfu n2eZIDvB6Ha1ITtNYVJ+A+I707qkkKWtC8xNIHJGjtliwCOFSzbga6bWlMqYZPxSkI Vb91vTbeQf++GD0jLehg1ZM9e7pBONOEGXRbtKyhhhYYOrVw/JEoldEwOULyo5iHRa kgXDqiiyi91xMTgElTy7jd/rBGU9QoxKq3t4xCvvwIW8nA93KLyZZ3OVsuUuAbLw06 1gdqtQbYK9KfSJFqrnD4MWal73u8i0rMrefWGCUb4HF0Tfuq64AMLQaeQ8MYr9gFzJ +X7zKrwe20NCQ== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id D835F80257; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.216.111]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A11EA12025A; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:59:45 +0800") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:25 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.009 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > I want this off by default. We teach users to enable lexical binding in > the Lisp introduction and a myriad of other places; inserting lexical > binding cookies is not "the icing on the cake", but a gesture that > implies we should override the judgement of our users, and are willing > to browbeat them into abiding by such notions of ours. The lexbind dialect is the dialect we recommend: Lately Emacs is moving towards using lexical binding in more and more places, with the goal of eventually making lexical binding the default. In particular, all Emacs Lisp source files and the @file{*scratch*} buffer use lexical scoping. So why should a new file default to using the dynbind dialect instead? > Similar measures taken by other software bespeaks the existence of a > sense of superiority in their developers; doubtless, We simply can't satisfy everyone: either we impose the dynbind dialect by default (the current situation) or we impose the lexbind dialect by default. In both cases you can look at it as something imposed out of a sense of superiority, but I don't think that is a useful way to look at it. > they think it beyond their users to read several pages of > documentation pertaining to lexical binding, and to make from that an > informed decision. Those users who read all the docs can easily turn that option off if they so wish. We shouldn't decide on what's a good defaults based on them. > We never insert text to enforce our conceptions of good practice in any > major mode. Such is the first step down a very precipitous slope, which > culminates in the adoption of the haughty attitude that other software > has seized upon with particular zeal. Just to be clear: the long term goal is to eliminate the dynbind dialect, or at least make it be an opt-in that requires taking extra steps, such as adding a cookie to the file, whereas the lexbind dialect should be the default. Not because dynbind is evil. Not because it imposes an undue burden on the implementation. But because having two dialects imposes an undue burden on our users. Those who read all the docs may not care, but all the others are vulnerable to the usual "I copied the code from that webpage and it doesn't work" because the code on that webpage used the other dialect. So the question is how to move from here to there in the least painful way and I believe that inserting this cookie by default is a step that will make this transition less painful. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 02:29:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169820088529340 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 02:29:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 02:28:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56988 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvTcr-0007dA-HZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:28:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50536) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvTcm-0007cb-I3 for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:28:03 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvTcC-0004AZ-A3; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:27:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=/IoiW+SPxSzp6OK3t9gYwy4xVfGEGl2sGOifNsmERTs=; b=U6/jtV+ljnpfIsB2C22X 5QvtOxYVIEtqjp+RFHMvEl+mLMcRWRvukfSmKas/U/G0xdZ8CU9ulNfJ9sV0vGqk/CDbWvLo6AlpV pxOJG13JBNeLmeUGoNbWO043OgVp9em6TCD0JoUHG6rfBFaZ18OUjkSz/596d92RDVo/SQSGNedyh wVlwimwLgosykSIrT4oUIKwhENarBS554ntWF001SOOxfL2gcbLxvSp0Yz5Geap6G74hKylfwL4D1 2HJtIjRfMmDthyEskQlevKlnQ+n4Hdq8e4UxGoOwe6qSsCjY2lkF2ixy2vpa4NuHB3GE1fJT5NHLp NRWYfxoaV9Q4Aw==; Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:27:30 +0300 Message-Id: <83y1frjv1p.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Monnier on Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:19:46 -0400) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: Mattias Engdeg�rd , > stefankangas@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:19:46 -0400 > > > As mentioned earlier, please make the automatic insertion be off by > > default, and please reflect that in the NEWS entry. > > That makes the patch completely useless. There's already an opt-in > solution (via `auto-insert`), so I'd oppose this patch if it's OFF by > default since it's just added complexity. > > The whole point of this patch is to help those users who don't > know better. But we already have ample features that help those "who don't know better". We turned on lexical-binding by default in *scratch* and other situations, and we have the prominent indication in the mode line when dynamic binding is in effect. How much more is needed, and why? This looks like an overkill to me. Almost like tyranny. And inserting stuff into a buffer without the user's say-so is completely against the Emacs spirit. So I'm very much against this. I can live with it if it's off by default, but if you and others cannot live with such a compromise, then neither will I. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 02:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Kangas Cc: mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169820111329788 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 02:32:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 02:31:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56998 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvTgX-0007kO-G1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:31:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46388) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvTgV-0007kA-Sh for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:31:52 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvTfw-0004u1-LG; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:31:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=GK1VpHVVvJ5sAW1vQT+93oZJ9aYoVICZr2fNh7PG/7k=; b=e/ZtB9XmLAIoiVortNps zTTDqQzToRnVkxTD9WksrvenYhlmuM7wTEgADbZzcdOdtQ+bq0hlm2gRuv4OcWGiCRJzJQJvnBPy4 WUyt7dioL1EgYkq5ryVitdvLohCLwz+eS20BzBKuMXUiSCp3iQzwv8elx/HVmF2bCzQC09xAtwn+5 737+tPwB4jitF6dfmrH/GuyHlyX5lCUUSIrul+k7q934cffFX2da/STBTsYYuI0aLdVg4/NI3by8Y dMU/vKSxCHuvoAh75wVKwgb2TGMW2XBM0puSmoe0ETggox/H/zGf0rv0BAA7GwcRs7/Nbo2XJjgQu pdwwyQol2KadJg==; Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:31:23 +0300 Message-Id: <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:22:03 -0700) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 13:22:03 -0700 > Cc: Mattias Engdegård , > 66706@debbugs.gnu.org > > Stefan Monnier writes: > > > That makes the patch completely useless. There's already an opt-in > > solution (via `auto-insert`), so I'd oppose this patch if it's OFF by > > default since it's just added complexity. > > Indeed. I also can't see any downsides to making it non-optional. > > I think we should mainly ask ourselves if this feature will help users. > In my opinion, the answer is clearly yes, in almost all cases. For the > rest, a very small minority indeed, the patch provides a user option. We should also ask ourselves if this is not "too much". I think it is, since a clear indication of dynamic binding, with a face that makes it stand out, already exists on the mode line. I think this is enough. It is not Emacs's business to force users into something they don't want to do. Emacs never did that, and should not do that in the future. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 03:02:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.1698202911476 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 03:02:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 03:01:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57012 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvU9W-00007b-JY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 23:01:50 -0400 Received: from sonic303-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.146]:43982) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvU9T-00007N-Ge for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 23:01:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698202872; bh=2QeQ2jByol8dHzkqdbxTGIt76l7W6kVuXVl/XLpZSf0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=DvzGjAILonKv2laWCgAe7ejVzT+JoO0yZ78wfJ8+vRrg9t8JpaUZBM/uI79dPpROKM0MZjQx4/zwPgbvoZKY21YH6HIeUGja6AgZ6E8+J9WpDLqBWnG1KvCf1ArntfHPjiVBqEc0WNwgJYGLMtrcQ5/TaovvjFZgfuzHU93Q94S9YSs7oPZaWvwtQRq/giM2Gyj20hs8WqIzPDnwnjvRVj+J4wkP9pXT6ZSfA5r2C16Ko1n8DQJ1z/qsRujY+8pZ9EWMgVkhp/w6j3lrCgZXPsYpJ8xcWqL42Hc7K/g4tpwIKR324+QYhDsE/uOSOWfl/v38ESDeF6U4T1QybeU59g== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698202872; bh=cpEylbh1rPVqNawVSa2yviLf6uUq9MoSFxP7noCRvPS=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=fBY4R/7gUeAr4MmWkco7Ey/YN27JuzaTWpUaAEMwFX+OEyC8S1RYlMT+2I5i2Sht6Rsh8EwRvZN+pRoteT/V2Op/SvOo/eLXLHy1ZxnyEztrOjykZ/uol+6+blNZFwFuSohiO5+xxouv+7RAtJFCr/hob9dbWVUUWvTpfixIDLyGHXIM97VbIGMbRzceOfDLqTLMLqV+F3Ms8MzEDiOdpqFDblClFl4f0fQxceH4JLv0fiVy3A+eJlSYmoro2ILV7y45/5gofM3GLEcDxX9W9f7cDqZPQZG+XvshjEz73n6pXlTOJBz1p3X4WAQlYxvnQizvXNu6zv6Y12dbQGd1Bg== X-YMail-OSG: S5.Xy.YVM1mwLXYklVJLvl.Z5MfBphNX9KgdDVX1cN.z6RaSzT_3pqKfVp6fQAO i3xfTOvyLQw2gu5ysE.GnJZDXkIb9_Hns7a0cJ65CBeAE4iI9Nc6xi1695PVuaM2bgI2_1zz.rPj GNOzVZpQiYreB0NZr3R5YHKCAmBaeFhRMIO8D3Q9LuPqm94RMXLj3sR72cie0UoqMUDlJpZkzpXn J2oST0ESztfrE0W2we3XpD7.wlCV7qSjRSMeCNC1hHTm0dNpUgL78BXHLf.s7Zb0839g.jFPf_MO VSK4jNNHUah1jx33urUe0o.sMCtWlr0CkghH0Y7yT5FvOdUfsiKxlHYTAW07RVU.hUteQ0cFbpxz 9jhxEvtmpu0MGTVpvxsqNIhEjsTxebh9zpVnx0CBv9OUoAKwGkumxYum8MoqdjUiZOp_xEYBT2do CV0cjZ3gA08OOuDE6FzGsG6NF8IpT8uHHZtiSS8DHf6Pe_Gb37cG.Gy3Wserhp8ypeg.bP5rd_.z qRldgwLUJ6PrzR_c_l9dSjzrBELJjwstxj3evdeW.6C2GyMrCRdRxCJbWHlKLmcOC3jMI1QsM5Sl TvZbZRgnR_Ze15AQqOhrHkmuxRpRkxVizvCfRg8gRAhI8dPpVXozJIkxx0h64iEwfJrW5xEPI33i eRNtnzWyAiW_ihWeKwPZCr7Mw7nchvKoh_WxL4hLgnRERyJCrbe08MSPlVn1Nai7WL8e71zzkstG thaRqheA_t1WH4JPkjsfe7SGaM7kIM3LQ6QDST2L.LLeN8C08AlsP5hU2UlwOO5CSJOTUgrHrSOO GhO0tyBBVPSR_OC6ajj2pFgfs3yDyNUUuM1ALZkiQ2gJXM6lwsI.Xa5ADL2PVx3zIlGQ99S754Du MNvp40QbmTkhMWJXPNno2xj9kQw1Zn4we.gRxTIZvvEviaR8hw0Or6MG5wGnx7FlVS54FgY3USDh wBKUaD4VedpkaiCZV9fk7Gv.WC0NxvzGaXXtXkd_miMOQ9l2waborPKeI5H5y07fQp8pSw2EqIQI 1WFEUiyK3Gz3lWAXL4Tlf0ay317O8mJgFtfnrEIUgQqw7wQ68zQI0GWTwZi2qcRzQdRYcQIfDBO6 Ec9__gRFAkGBdoI5AJ0urb68nfUkpL6HPdeNCYie42L1U5MVpSXW7ZCJYGTyJqkMVvIng5ShpUeU k7jW1rMtMaEFh28sfS5GSWpF_gsFcCiDtTRegn2E.Eog4.VxGIQwijV3JaaC1qGxzM.b3_urAZyP O56VJ3aBb.Y9ac40.LGAMcABFuCaUdVzocsDXyqBsOsjLZTWTVcbJXRIG8lhaskttyubcPhjPCan lO7Sh2_8h0gdKwFyTm18JjeHW0kaEOUeaAkEGziqVTkbGRi.vKceewdv.5FL45l8tP267fC_z4oP E4HlEpuCdGctP6Rc77wbbBrhREAnBg.DBJreji2fdLEj5BVVp24LymKOb8cFRMRMCks3ZGocZF7l K_qVKGtlA6okL4UPpPU9PtokGO0dExKhawFonxGAF8FGwZfM7HBXX6.UBdaniWqMeECbc6qC.e0B LhLlTfBngPkXwZtD0PZ0SKZRFPJC2exjNBEQYE0QkPWh3YfrJd4.wEohXpooXcElqTcUCrhjYUwE BZaVfCITtWHZiGHuc0OJRIOlLbd5lZhdJBbQGGie_k6d8TqaC3NsI532O6WePifz5c5m6MScOdhl jRAJM4UVgZhBy3fk7iROO5aJJG6_41QhbV.2j4.xeICd0E8AWzg6vEMo6_BwFQU_27VgjP9VfHg1 ZLWwRN6YvCAk3lV5hg8vl20Xy6c45hkED8l_IeDwtiRsVDo17BupV3IOckKgpD1yCsImgG0SNfF8 _jV6LTEeNuYBz38wT1w7lpXzSvEm4Vu1xoH_ye.Dptqctsqft4VZJDYnaCxFrbLsjhxcc7y6sHYY hM2NQStz4OjGjLNAB9yZJ5bPbi7Hbwmg6fVeZnFcvyNWEVXkFp0mYghdOWhzHXvJKuIa4GY.xSwe e5gyoI96Av3oFgVf1srpBjQtTgrXx7HFQ1gv02CKmoAD8g5QMBiZsydN5KBSbdXP1L3dknrboL22 nm2V99_P0Zo5f1stc2n1DHG7aPnnjlGbT32fOCoAQnOvK5BfwOtPDi1MnMYKjKgIIIgWo1js9fOv U1wwRzg2MIDRlIuGOFKGA0y.FSHBwNkuGgklltTLfkNHxdkrylyICsm38amqiQFvc3QRbe0e0Kua gjnOprhcBLbu4vupjgJOYT6of4KtRPDBbTlKRHQPr1Jg2aetUl.WyI46DIp.cN0lGYyTeB4g- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: ed28a85b-c6bb-4ba9-8585-74d8a5f44b70 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 03:01:12 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-57f7997989-dp725 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 11eadcfc573d601c09ecd70e09d07e47; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 03:01:05 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:25 -0400") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:01:00 +0800 Message-ID: <87h6mf1k43.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 2504 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: > The lexbind dialect is the dialect we recommend: > > Lately Emacs is moving towards using lexical binding in more and > more places, with the goal of eventually making lexical binding the > default. In particular, all Emacs Lisp source files and the > @file{*scratch*} buffer use lexical scoping. > > So why should a new file default to using the dynbind dialect instead? Because that is the default, rather than a mere recommendation. A suggestion is an idea its recipients are meant to judge for themselves, on the grounds of its merits and deficiencies. > We simply can't satisfy everyone: either we impose the dynbind > dialect by default (the current situation) or we impose the lexbind > dialect by default. In both cases you can look at it as something > imposed out of a sense of superiority, but I don't think that is > a useful way to look at it. There is no quandary between default values here. This change is borne out of both a desire to _retain the status quo_, and a belief that our users are of such low intellectual caliber as to require instruction for even the most elementary of tasks, so that the one pious way of writing Emacs Lisp code is inculcated into them from the outset. > Those users who read all the docs can easily turn that option off if > they so wish. We shouldn't decide on what's a good defaults based > on them. As mentioned above, we are not adjuding which form of variable binding is to be enabled by default. > Just to be clear: the long term goal is to eliminate the dynbind > dialect, or at least make it be an opt-in that requires taking extra > steps, such as adding a cookie to the file, whereas the lexbind dialect > should be the default. Not because dynbind is evil. Not because it > imposes an undue burden on the implementation. > But because having two dialects imposes an undue burden on our users. > Those who read all the docs may not care, but all the others are > vulnerable to the usual "I copied the code from that webpage and it > doesn't work" because the code on that webpage used the other dialect. I find this categorical dismissal of the intellectual or problem-solving capacity, and perhaps fortitude if you will, of Emacs users very patronizing, needless to say with my Emacs user hat on. Furthermore, it is quite dubitable that minor customizations of the sort found on most web pages are suceptible to influence by the type of variable binding used. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:50:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Po Lu Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823454320140 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:50:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 11:49:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57561 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcNi-0005Ei-Fa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:49:03 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:3604) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcNc-0005DL-Rj for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:49:01 -0400 Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 561CB10013E; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:48:21 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698234500; bh=igydY7gb+stbAd4FOtEDiFlNF1doTc+DR5d6+LclYg8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Hu3ARDtMpgI01AeH5Yyc+XCtVJV2zhbTqQvM9lK/burTtlJbevde9N6Oe44j4h5Ju CjAAB/+cRRt14aojbRjDPwKU4yNLsiEahDepma2oMhHzf7GImVFJm1v6VE4d3yXOYm t82KgdRU2Sqoquj0FnDWnXA/1yJ+eloAAZRMkHc+GBsEi4pOXWqneqffbGu5pbNjBM sDPryVVVc6MDw8w1VncBwDT4dG9ItYqUPnrGetJjB8Fr1S0dNYskMn0MWpDd4vP29X ii5k6ORNmnK/2MmsKMWJd14MJvuvg9m9sG9+GpuI2oIoA/5puZeve79kltWmH1Ydgq absq4QJRk27hg== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 38F6E10006B; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.216.111]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 085D612044C; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:48:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <87h6mf1k43.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:01:00 +0800") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6mf1k43.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:48:19 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.149 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> But because having two dialects imposes an undue burden on our users. >> Those who read all the docs may not care, but all the others are >> vulnerable to the usual "I copied the code from that webpage and it >> doesn't work" because the code on that webpage used the other dialect. > I find this categorical dismissal of the intellectual or problem-solving > capacity, and perhaps fortitude if you will, of Emacs users very > patronizing, needless to say with my Emacs user hat on. There's no patronizing, here. Just experience. It *is* a source of confusion. I've seen enough such examples during my time in SX where people give a valid answer, followed by comments like: "doesn't work here" --Mr.Foo "I assumed you have lexical-binding enabled, try enabling it and see if it works" --Mr.Bar Sometimes the original poster tried to avoid the problem by including the `-*- lexical-binding:t -*-` cookie in his snippet, but the other user just copied that snippet to his existing file so the cookie didn't end up on the first line. I don't doubt that our users have the capacity to solve those problems. It's just that my sadism is already satisfied by all the other problems we foist on them. I myself get bitten by the different dialects every once in a while, sometimes even copying code within Emacs itself (typically taking a chunk of code from a buffer and running it inside `M-:` or `M-x ielm`). > Furthermore, it is quite dubitable that minor customizations of the > sort found on most web pages are suceptible to influence by the type > of variable binding used. And yet. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:58:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823505721035 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:58:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 11:57:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57578 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcW0-0005TD-RZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:57:37 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:39415) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcVw-0005Sx-TC for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:57:36 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 4EE264412FD; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:56:57 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698235015; bh=XUxR7NxAo5WCotdNBKo+LB9M+NQBTY99gPQNepKqfXI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=UGvrRDdVJBwHBVxw1UpEC+9/DAi495cXOkxf1kZ9JtffBfbk/UqvtVHLf0icKB7GU V8wAp1qmEfCF2OFg71o17HbZxarOJk0A7UxBxgu+6Y8yfc3jtpDnNs+HXKrZUUkBx6 HWQmy9hmy5quatuKusM4wGbqIa+ER8m0bgrvbXcuPPR2dzufCSQcys7If8zl2d8zG5 FNkRNOq84wlGNFkYTRGelbpHVUiU94BL+uDDebjGv0jGtAL1XWGvBloK5WbYyN8cmg BOhujP8gD6MrR5N7JrpoUCTwRWmHIRmedLD1VBUcXQn+yvFOBhFN+5v16WNLPWDzUf iyxadYfZ/iubw== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id A2212441213; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.216.111]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 75B4112034B; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:56:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:31:23 +0300") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:56:54 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.001 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > enough. It is not Emacs's business to force users into something they > don't want to do. Not inserting a cookie (i.e. what we do now) forces the use of the dynbind dialect. In my experience, most users either don't know which dialect they want or want the lexbind dialect. This is reflected in the fact that almost all the code I find out there, is either using lexbind or is old: the only code still using dynbind is the code that started its life before lexbind existed, pretty much. And this is to be expected: lexical scoping is the standard in virtually all programming languages (e.g. Python, JavaScript, C, C++, Java, C#, Rust, ...) so programmers are much more at ease with that choice. So we currently do "force users into something they don't want to do" and the patch will simply let us do that less often. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823542421730 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:04:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 12:03:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57593 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcbw-0005eO-8Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:03:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59934) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcbt-0005eA-LW for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:03:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcbJ-0006eg-Tu; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:03:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=/EiSfrSldrgNgeXhCLd/x6arOmpqf56i9VwJ6t8UUT8=; b=a5XnGlesFuUtFydiOWsR avQucM3TYQCUGVVuyivjDGHLapyTNVygifZr1hlvgpFblSZtEuW1aYWCC4YWz7K55G2MScrlDYh33 d/+5ZZ4KYf3lHsOijlv79fBsIiyl1xaQhybgel65Uti3jhV1+IkeeOZlYg8pej0cgbmZqjfwiDdet xiCz25llTYwQg2o19QHdBljvqW4EGgkyRCIPWbZc9IUfO2TKdPuBEfxL+3tWIH3LYWGrGcoRxNhCa rdydZur3wE8QUMyMlUYAxAYSVhTZoG3x0r4+Lnhkq/ixvlE4F6xekQ3wh7R+86JrGnwVxhWdrvv+z PyhSz+Qsd+2DVA==; Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:03:12 +0300 Message-Id: <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Monnier on Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:25 -0400) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Mattias Engdeg�rd > , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:25 -0400 > > Just to be clear: the long term goal is to eliminate the dynbind > dialect, or at least make it be an opt-in that requires taking extra > steps, such as adding a cookie to the file, whereas the lexbind dialect > should be the default. Not because dynbind is evil. Not because it > imposes an undue burden on the implementation. > But because having two dialects imposes an undue burden on our users. > Those who read all the docs may not care, but all the others are > vulnerable to the usual "I copied the code from that webpage and it > doesn't work" because the code on that webpage used the other dialect. > > So the question is how to move from here to there in the least > painful way and I believe that inserting this cookie by default is a step > that will make this transition less painful. I thought we already decided on that: we should make lexical-binding the default at some point. Until then, I see no reason why the prominent indication on the mode line should not be enough. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823626623085 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:18:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 12:17:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57605 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcpW-00060H-FK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:17:46 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]:44426) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvcpS-000601-8u for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:17:45 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2c503dbe50dso86190701fa.1 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:17:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698236226; x=1698841026; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=j51qNlUf/dFm9EcEtg02QARhLddW3hS42uX72fJXhFI=; b=Lg6QvWqXAwLUBeJtYHSfQOaOk7V/beOwDL2TCUebdVlwmh/iQgb5j4Ez6bV+d6hvQC J4eAG8QZD35YtTX3pCLWJsoJUU699pnw5Xq3w7ij7dBY3HdVzq2PlYLjUreUaFXvsAGU +KzU9ar4Bwf3B0s2XhAQqo2UthaqyMaRDLTrRjmle5u1gNTy9oCW9aeW/MoLyC+8cBRz jMXI/pF2VZk0r78+PSms8jrKplKCqDX2dIIIWZBhVE0tTDUrqxPmyH/b9U3MS4qPYXLq 3q29sJ5Bz4oioSjuf3m9NvoEQz4Gcuhj5hMSsBHWqsFLXhh3FF0RSQ4BkCYnOBu/QOGQ Bysw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698236226; x=1698841026; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=j51qNlUf/dFm9EcEtg02QARhLddW3hS42uX72fJXhFI=; b=Th/0FkHx3Da1VWHgcNIK/FqUYYypp6/JunMH8hJHnA3hOUjxwhjRaBz9t9DINyTcIU 1vKWPRvneKyDn1FxENMh4qn1+wmcEBW9b/ZHKkPohr0ZsV/a2chgdDWsKHOqUSW66a1s 4S7Gq8VspIxNhFTiRRKrikNP2jyG+TtQSLSjC7igiPb7aV5lLdv3k+xTIiMTsgAa3mZi pE09KIQrBrF6/9BM/2n7JdO/Libdjh85agijCyAjNMF5wOnYxCqb5ZNW1ImvPYyJWM6+ 8OO7npzcXedxPoLLJr6nlO48Mnr02Sx2kK0o/ATX2eXQqsY20Wwn5sxT2uyHQ6Q9EfHg R9Yw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyda9Euj5cBPd8KyR4z/91yCU3VGmheKiVMZCj4+YiB75RCL0yM 8lg6e0YEv1SFP2bQi6vYTz+JFQ1UnCsefSs0gVQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGRPRWGS9u4NEkR4l3Xj8z8Tp72dp3AVqeGXGtMkR1BhADThD0TmvjZ8stLgta3PNFbAYMYVj0ozD72MSNSmps= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:14c:b0:2c5:9a5:a1c2 with SMTP id c12-20020a05651c014c00b002c509a5a1c2mr11108485ljd.30.1698236225879; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:17:05 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:17:05 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > We should also ask ourselves if this is not "too much". I think it > is, since a clear indication of dynamic binding, with a face that > makes it stand out, already exists on the mode line. I think this is > enough. I expect the users most helped by this to not even register that warning on the mode line. It's quite inconspicuous. I never see it, myself. We have had the mode-line warning for years, yet most user configurations still implicitly use "lexical-binding:nil". Just have a look at the configurations posted on GitHub, Reddit and elsewhere. This will mean that a lot of users will have a Bad Time (TM) when we eventually change the default to lexical-binding:t. We can help mitigate that pain, or we can choose not to. The controversial choice here is to see this situation coming yet refuse to take reasonable steps to help. That would be unfortunate, and a disservice to our users. > It is not Emacs's business to force users into something they don't > want to do. No one disagrees with that, AFAICT. The proposed patch has a user option to disable the new behavior. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:38:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.169823742624985 (code B ref -1); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:38:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 12:37:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57613 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvd8E-0006Uu-9h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:37:06 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:35846) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvd88-0006UN-Us for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:37:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvd7Y-0008Ub-7G for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:36:24 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvd7W-00054s-Lm for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:36:23 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2c50ec238aeso81183711fa.0 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:36:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698237380; x=1698842180; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=M8JF5MIs5GuFpPHcxbY4QtOC8BOMqFVD63jSIWsjcOs=; b=hBCXbnUwbgzfKLjj8uqEY66u50d8pAtCFXFXIJ+l05QzI9KlPacoT34gSYj4VjSGtA Z3ohqkMaiKykYTbVML4/HPWMBLCvlWnULryl1leA+/T5i0vteNeJO10f7onutmC7R4yi DykK/oOYJoy5g/Gb8gnMmOmsenSDNT+hbO7lOxEbv+89C4bAg59cdOpl7Rn2hea/guRM oxbSmsXLEGEGY8P6qsADh1dtEZrmG7vb20cRvZKK9R0F+23HGlwniIk4KIEyD42M70tq ki1MWfYI2SLKdK+Uf8jTl7cDczePYHJzmdnBPkfm4ByCDv4bwGSsMe8VEP7GE5+UM6nT hT+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698237380; x=1698842180; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=M8JF5MIs5GuFpPHcxbY4QtOC8BOMqFVD63jSIWsjcOs=; b=cbKUUzLlnoKyvISuPMeCP9I9NCe1UjsiImuvZgUo7HPxZhr3N7BzOl7+TIHXrpkga4 eRIbrkpRIlfmxJxDeTXgAG0zSrT1YEJAn/5+Yt5H9YF1nYzvu/RIzVY22+yBiJa1TNnj S0hg2KND9+DFLLgjOXeDfOZZ7VyYeEqiFvvE5Sri9ia4cj1bmVZ72gCgI4j+MnjFi6Vo mP74lkgg3ssHwWcDjihHg/dJeRBlUFrOToZVNGkXC/JEIm/amAydiKJIgD6xql0YBm4N H4c7aY5rDddKWmBZSixWZwD0rm4VgyOF3YZHbXlZGnM22Mo0i5boCBONA6hOYgfO3wd2 uSnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywb9zXWDx8Rj5BYHU/NUhbTISi8/eGiL9mTPiq8lalMMfwpXI0s Gb8yLROv6MKia1XWrDL8XfktHYQ0mH4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEU7JqO8HZLqqQ5pqyW8j+IzhpzcyEjSzvYpiPeDylEBkU1JsqSZyALsJI2lcchzX0eLvUZIQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:a10:b0:2c5:1f92:b464 with SMTP id k16-20020a05651c0a1000b002c51f92b464mr14641142ljq.10.1698237380248; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2a02:2168:b3fc:c600:b19f:651b:42c7:7059? ([2a02:2168:b3fc:c600:b19f:651b:42c7:7059]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y23-20020a05651c107700b002c1256558bdsm2442752ljm.5.2023.10.25.05.36.19 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:36:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev X-Google-Original-From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:36:18 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: ru, en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::236; envelope-from=nikolay.kudryavtsev@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x236.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) I think a better perspective to frame this discussion is this: Lets say you go to a restaurant and you order a duck. The waiter asks whether you want a white duck or a yellow duck. And then you're stuck thinking about the differences in gastronomic quantities of both. Same thing here. Assuming the user is reasonable, but not knowledgeable yet, there's a risk that forcefully adding that cookie would derail such a user solving some trivial problem into learning the differences between dynamic and lexical scoping way before he really has to actually care about them. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:48:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier , Po Lu Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823803226022 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:48:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 12:47:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57639 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdI0-0006ld-D4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:47:12 -0400 Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:38399) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdHw-0006lM-9A for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <211ad6fd-72b0-4454-90af-2f9666807987@gutov.dev> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:46:26 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6mf1k43.fsf@yahoo.com> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On 25/10/2023 14:48, Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote: > I myself get bitten by the different dialects every once in a while, > sometimes even copying code within Emacs itself (typically taking > a chunk of code from a buffer and running it inside `M-:` or `M-x > ielm`). +1 From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Nikolay Kudryavtsev , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823812926393 (code B ref 66706); 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Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <514fda25-c526-34f8-c3eb-8e31bdcf1290@gutov.dev> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:48:09 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On 25/10/2023 15:36, Nikolay Kudryavtsev wrote: > Same thing here. Assuming the user is reasonable, but not knowledgeable > yet, there's a risk that forcefully adding that cookie would derail such > a user solving some trivial problem into learning the differences > between dynamic and lexical scoping way before he really has to actually > care about them. Knowing the difference can be helpful, though. E.g. flymake in emacs-lisp-mode isn't very useful without lexbind. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:50:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823817826634 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:50:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 12:49:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57654 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdKL-0006vV-HZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:49:37 -0400 Received: from sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.146]:34236) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdKJ-0006vE-7a for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:49:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698238139; bh=TdK4PbMkS2wLZKNIVOIzVpWJYlo4x3K+KrbjsujAVmg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=TWmgHJ7ds18nSh6CHOynW/cXE2ERQUk8JGEMOZjXKbQmRhFlXncD/yrIh8x2fIRObYxaN+vFy8UJEtA7bbLHmmzZa1JlNPRp02bOcrDsxLh7CBzfEEZ51idOphQMQCQc+6z+msemGdRhCJ94yFb1doROia7xekfo6Ap6jUbkx4BuQhDXKd9eS4fTZu7cdYMrJs1P95H/xLJKzOPlFeWDRQ/EfqLCwDEs5SMZPvBeiQ3UXoi01tY7hybSY1z0Rt9gLukncqsdxdh1SFS+NS6P66FC/jKr9cOlhqMWuc77H6yuH0gyAfo54mygPO5jOuDl4aK2UQhLFbvob7ph11ix9A== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698238139; bh=Ejo4sUl8d9Ymu31+3prKRoX1edjr24jQWvsx5w/yrKU=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=lScUeFGT3ex6xwV74EXfhnCqlZkcXdbg5Y98KUPQ70/UBrYS4FTiEf73EEJNYc0IFuXratyUAtJ3J8ED8eaicTuWdNIyqEoszw+u95zOJMXXNhaC6dGOaSn1R7/DifN9XRJbx6ZJ0+twGWWAFUuto/kNsPHd4zBExDB+HRG6wN2ooo+SXtV4Zt3JUhI+B6xaC9KwbnuKBk/XbaNcbxcIksALYbaecw+YEqwYDFRFWYMCfLKRB4Kd3Z3J+JCHsetW+7nEyPWbXtdvxV2DD6ZvSsx/tUX9Ue+aYhzm34OBIQxO9Haoqjt/DVqIZcpwVlr+5LQVHdoNSayYj7Md4autBw== X-YMail-OSG: p4zmpe8VM1lDXp9c1r7126sYlIvSEBHQH.ZAFarIWoklxl1OPzxcRDMrLjKF8ah rII6yveh62RfDKBxhEQOgi19mW_voIE2D8N7OdBqAeyPxc66uQUeQb6o0BFqbe73TRjeIe7uIULz I4QflpflTJQ7N9l2FXY70XDtBNbiUNkQBz8Inq0.sDN_M3IMkCHok_I5wTkuwpoNl9AFrFG6ic3T QuNQY5Cb5VYW08uHeVhJkgrUA_MUmL45pMVaHWKSkNEP2y5s_CW5v2E12OScJvMDHShe8vL5erk0 rwVQ39ClmEX2XouEY8DNrf_eNbE._8xQQi4ZrcPAHpS7A6upWVN1i7Nl5PjGXuAnomHH6iCVUqRI 4n7wi6wcTRCuCIxRbNqvkFWWvOa7ot5cuApSzoZOHzBK_EFJPkQ78OeG6mv87Nki_49tTzxiETBN n3r5jayx4.es_kqj65IYz3McRs2D4X2ODX.biqmX1WURe4BvG8Z5hZwdVvyybmCe8hTZvSsRpxaO 6Olvsms8MlkwxwxENThNJyJ2DWS56dplOXtBSEmoIpFdtxp8wCzPW8D16MkhjkIosMYtU3t.Bb6M NVePgdk0uV28qsItxcuJ7Mk4Y.LynLdsdZzKvHTe53dRpgkM1AiPeVd_9Hm7vWSgdV5MhGAMo9S8 MdqqF396IYmrrIAUMQXmkJ3o_5RyNIjift6up.3.iDLHZxWKP3N8QieRAxt83Qqe9t7XiFk7IE7n LU74hG0GRtrGTZRl64F_hjGfTY1xXpWgQGBPcoy2IjuPRPwuTpYqGiHWFRspg.HjPav7uTP24uqd 5Bkit9IGPv245aDwYJKdtx_qYFnHWi_DQsd4UhrvbMs6QqbALu0Th1H4Hquur9izHR0g3jEahDGy 7dxALJqPBb2S.DKUXX4BRBxOoRA2bcqOmnoKswKxkczFXzUDs9E6jPJeSU6DUuZwdQn1MnDtmua9 vm18EGX76Ie3yMrCE1naZ7DwSZQn0HkHNysXEGb.UkBf441GdhWGruXnxk_3Jd1aVX8isIi0qgAy Da.0xXKmTdXgUVre.8XfFJmlnEZjJ4H9tta1KX27u1vMzCtYhCrhu5_WsDjJOugtAcRfMalqIIlh n54OGLI3i6MVTz9kVcNb1kbwtWm3SamTNMNkFJXjqZaen7XnZX6hWZ4yXcS70vvjV6QdjzOqjNdY frnQbKEHmOJnV4mc4CKvgX7EyQG1DD6U5_4mIznLW7LM1jZDkdnAFK3Ub7hGmnxjky1pqtl59OhJ eDMaePDG9rzm6ElfFOG1aXF3sb30Hv3GsMEyMuXo1UMb.rI4UY101OL35aonan.2QNv7vhC9V7X4 P5maIJ_nhjSC4xWDJCesqL4b5XMR_5Nx3UIqXoNBsv9IiflMl2z1vGaii1paYH0zYr5jVpjtrauh QvT7F4sAt54rDD0BdReygXGfMCoM5oVCLTJjPizNQ9mZE5nsowNi7WUWrgfuxDzOunBmEZZe4wIO R_TY0WLWAf20U7wTgjWvL.O_m.lJnfxLrqffiqa7tNdIy5n8WX4RzaXgGISInUAaOVvQ6pTcx3_z 2HBFqt87WfMZWGzsEMcXA9xHGJi4lxksNr0OutCuzDtXgazpXTGovCkC7mzQl0XpUWe.BiPV2TiS uj4rZ7vKwaBZ33euj4OnUJI41RQrvIeEsow9GBFIpcZZxazZjGn4pflygPL5G18B7SxbfKZi7lYp TwuLFTsMrBzTKPT2JAwJC_V3JoLMmoZHXFDrXbFFuccFmXMLtTvEjyaf4uzDDAAx_309GviflKFT _pfnhIbnwXEn5vibspPSN.r0w_WLpyQ55F3ZolG6r9V5CgAQjTHvn3W.sTxDPsV6KkoUZnNYZn3H 6GKHM3lhvB8GhQL.LV.kIlv63Q6yZD1N5652giVMB1hy2mvEdlRkkNAGguXW_Su_dC.fgWXlX92O H30pQqZfi6ENvr1.SulLGJ3sMN0m90I2kxxWD_9aLLfxGXN3XfwsbNqnlT2Ap9XS7oV7peGauiuU _NljKazsau_Q9nXuUKfcZ45fTJyTyiBgOYT02XrDkv6YMJeiv31WyexN__sT0W7uMzNTc6j7RpxG K.jj.Y_T9zcd_Cd0dTONEniWNqbalJUij12hVu2LRY8TLEYpXV___mGsNzcHxseTMKtPIVPFFQcY 6t5_e.Hgu5axOKY82LcEgRO7OCYJLJuu1JgIgT3Xf.nkFBe_SxOen1d9yqEVry4NZPS8m_k56ZxI m4ibGrqydGiE_268pQDxaWaoa2HrTozS3aY4m9d17WipWB_epKCKKPJj7uokVgyFNIO4- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 9680b3b9-4bed-495a-af27-8863ff19dd60 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:48:59 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-57f7997989-mcz6s (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 66b9b9bb63c6f98b22eba41ef3e40d6b; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:48:51 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:48:19 -0400") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6mf1k43.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:48:46 +0800 Message-ID: <87cyx227gx.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 2083 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: > There's no patronizing, here. Just experience. It *is* a source of > confusion. I've seen enough such examples during my time in SX where > people give a valid answer, followed by comments like: > > "doesn't work here" --Mr.Foo > "I assumed you have lexical-binding enabled, try enabling it and see > if it works" --Mr.Bar OK, and why is it such a reply does not suffice? And why would any measure short of initializing lexical-binding to t eliminate these people, when so many have failed in the past? > I don't doubt that our users have the capacity to solve those problems. > It's just that my sadism is already satisfied by all the other problems > we foist on them. Then please inure yourself to such trifling matters of theirs. Those who are ignorant of lexical binding will run afoul of it once, learn their lesson, and from that time forward routinely check whether it is enabled. You are not obliged to guarantee that no person stumbles across this pitfall, and we are long past the juncture after which the law of diminishing returns begins to assert itself in full force. Such "safeguards" as those proposed here will irk the informed and the ignorant alike, while the latter, which is to say those who elect not to read the documentation, take notice of the prominently decorated mode line lighter, or heed advice given to them on forums such as StackExchange, will continue not to enable lexical binding where it is due. As they have always done. I am not the only person empty of the =C3=A9lan for lexical binding that serves as the impetus for these increasingly heavy-handed measures, incidentally. Eli seems to agree with me. > I myself get bitten by the different dialects every once in a while, > sometimes even copying code within Emacs itself (typically taking > a chunk of code from a buffer and running it inside `M-:` or `M-x > ielm`). How will the automatic insertion of lexical binding cookies in new files affect M-: or IELM, both of which already execute lexically bound code? From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:56:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Kangas , Eli Zaretskii Cc: mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823854427236 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:56:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 12:55:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57659 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdQC-00075B-GU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:55:44 -0400 Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:35601) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdQ7-00074p-BY for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:55:39 -0400 Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E17320096F; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:54:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1698238498; x=1698324898; bh=in5Ac1jYPv+MLYmpOsLDtEccSlDRdWSRDZd vFBwHSOk=; b=VU6aqzuaS2VVzAQLWA1P8L99ZZma+wS3mAoYIOJkrRrXMSDge0n bxpQqwzdUNEJE8Ma6rjRQ0TLlzLfVD29spbLhiHNl9MKvDscfFXo6QrurON+DOiG pyFg207ptmGbnBI0T+DUQk6lu/OK0nRoM4gbJbsBZxtr/jwFCVRg/wS2H/s7XHC5 V9dnyuNAFt4Dm+qUFyhniWS4lZZKC+UmguB9M+B0zoYIG9OjJtpOAKl9t9nZD8yo 2Uvy4pdu/BZo3O0vnALn9ogBF5N2mjOoL6miexiHFn5eIKL/yk9DVOBBg8AbcLek KX1S8uwTwiF3xdcn2Flnhm0CkIZta7Grf1Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1698238498; x=1698324898; bh=in5Ac1jYPv+MLYmpOsLDtEccSlDRdWSRDZd vFBwHSOk=; b=Qn0kCazMYVHMfwtErhuWO3Cvkaqb2jft7xksgoGqdWPcPL72FdL x2d3ibNev82m0d1nxFNVP0WN6zV55SGA8DFCsU32NwfC/4L/kViR2zFiXk/anIFg aPd1VdUl1g8QQ0w5FfDIQumJRoX0SJqWYnYMt8kh5vQlXtDtznUrOQPMym3+14rx 1hk84KqDRqesqKewiEH0t4GXZIA09P8GtxBRFpNPpfsADQKEum/lXpYr1BF6+M7q tXmz/7c+I0nhY9anXidKhgpIN82EFiIJC1fb0yFNyPNn59vGpwQCHlZecOZx10Iv DkkrRxgm9spWUf8KpALmRWku/SPskMk5DLw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrledtgdehjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepffhmihht rhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeeigfetveehveevffehledtueekieeikeeufeegudfgfeeghfdulefgfeevledv veenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegumh hithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:54:55 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On 25/10/2023 15:17, Stefan Kangas wrote: > This will mean that a lot of users will have a Bad Time (TM) when we > eventually change the default to lexical-binding:t. We can help > mitigate that pain, or we can choose not to. There will be such users, but their number will likely be lower than some might expect, simply because the lexical dialect very much resembles how programs are written in other languages these days. To use a feature specifically available only in dynbind (e.g. access a local variable from a caller function), one would really have to know about it. But of course there can be typos, wrong refactorings, etc, which could contribute. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:08:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169823924628615 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:08:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 13:07:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57698 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdbZ-0007RT-NH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:07:26 -0400 Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:44531) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdbX-0007RE-0v for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:07:24 -0400 Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A372B320097F; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:06:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1698239206; x=1698325606; bh=K6glWaeHxh2B/U16fCWmHlxzoUFt7+YSNxq mHy0e4VY=; b=kGhDc9hcXtDat69xvWtzdK2q34b2FxgpmDsS+bKNc3jz4m7Y5m3 izW+hvixGWkD7aBG4rD7VAJRh7jmkW7fpYpWFg3o3+Ai0l0iNmB4x612i0Awqf6j lZ+q6o30ozOQ8HqJG71w5oRW01CLUkTf2Zf6p0p40J1LigfTejIiN7THoXK7KgGz RCD2HkucrMSGW6zFOBZvi9ZcA9nU4YiSlG93jvpUWwWX+Oop+Zdojzpo2/SOypCo 7qg2KCrcW6uUfFm5RYdgFMHu7aXyTkuxcEqmRBSkckImT9VkE0ozQyV6c8Gai0ZB GVH8Vwx8mAFARjez45apNKNT9WDH890mFUA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1698239206; x=1698325606; bh=K6glWaeHxh2B/U16fCWmHlxzoUFt7+YSNxq mHy0e4VY=; b=ljt4lrrMLpd+hx9RmHx/vvM+LEdZEzRWtCcoufXguI4ok8uEDw8 2avYtnLojnBhSIyBuJ7uu+JoEogEE87kHFzW6oHHBhTjNSCquIr9mBUYyNFsyFb5 HuZXu7wFgs5ift/3DuPKjlH/MIU2/wBf/7CVbMU+sBXS9YPxe4cqjR2hj1Brn3ph B1wOyqk8IP1uspezlj30Dxu/39mLh030D/KUbjZDIJOY9a0kS2irqh5ii4L36CkR vb5Ms6v+4fnRP4Bu1WC4vMLFCm1tGq0Ac8GcN+X5S3ZRUPgXfG99OlzIjQArn89p LrPXvleaC9naaqD4O+YM3euOZL1ZiZpDqOQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrledtgdehlecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepffhmihht rhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpefhffehleejffegffeugefhkeektdffgfehjedvgeejtedtudehueffgffgfeej heenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegumh hithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:06:43 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On 25/10/2023 15:03, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Stefan Monnier >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Mattias Engdegård >> ,66706@debbugs.gnu.org, >> stefankangas@gmail.com >> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:25 -0400 >> >> Just to be clear: the long term goal is to eliminate the dynbind >> dialect, or at least make it be an opt-in that requires taking extra >> steps, such as adding a cookie to the file, whereas the lexbind dialect >> should be the default. Not because dynbind is evil. Not because it >> imposes an undue burden on the implementation. >> But because having two dialects imposes an undue burden on our users. >> Those who read all the docs may not care, but all the others are >> vulnerable to the usual "I copied the code from that webpage and it >> doesn't work" because the code on that webpage used the other dialect. >> >> So the question is how to move from here to there in the least >> painful way and I believe that inserting this cookie by default is a step >> that will make this transition less painful. > I thought we already decided on that: we should make lexical-binding > the default at some point. Until then, I see no reason why the > prominent indication on the mode line should not be enough. I wasn't aware of that indication myself, FWIW. Or forgot. Regarding intermediate steps toward making 'lexical-binding: t' the default, are you of the opinion that we've made enough of them now? And will just be able to flip the default in some future release? All in all, I'd say the byte-compilation warning "file has no ‘lexical-binding’ directive" which we already show might suffice. But it only helps after the user learns how to byte-compile files and/or enable flymake-mode. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Dmitry Gutov Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Stefan Monnier , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169824009830236 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 13:21:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57714 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdpJ-0007rc-O5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:21:38 -0400 Received: from sonic312-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.204]:39665) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvdpH-0007r4-Je for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:21:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698240059; bh=TwMJ1mYr/kSZlQ1pa3bmKefhMaulQF+1q5w7DfOumfQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=YOMvCk0ML7cFas4mz6hegzoMr02I/dH+RSEgcfEvCM4pU5eJbTp2BHeQ6uHDD9J0dtJ5Ry0zCYGjAB4IopXgG4roSGF0GNU74BiduXDIC3CM+t8aozBmuLYlEvOiyrgmkSrVEAafIT+I3IWzglb4PCaRmUMjqTwOSHF/zTCMHXVH/LJPRT52iB2f5nwSQP7ny5qdivDbB0qshTzQthwrsG/xFFTJwWBYjhbAWX461oKyD6uTV8sGW0w/7bQ9/Xlc4KkpPauOpC2xsa5REy0etxspl8HpZVTO8C923e20vR0DZuBn4WIRyXJoTAqBE2ZyDpBoC8nJtezUcQR1W1UGpQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698240059; bh=KTltBTajBcOzb+3gFLNx5HsMFyEEcBCLkT+4I8T0V8s=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=IajulgsBh6wc8QtlyBtEBR0MHWUmge+M4lZIHlxbI9tBoMwkKb9ALGPeVHuflmPBpUBUjrBuzY3u/UPPbUzcB43CZrBjvgfRlFDv2Ljm7kChsrSJE4K6MP0vpIM/MQKhKT7HDonglw1hw0V60sqVODMrNg3J0F3gL/YLDmf5BH+qNP9NAs6wdL8cSCIsfC67Dio/GdyCpuxS4gDRglXnQo5bwowMtDkUyoI3aOPgi1HQ1SkT4ZbgWTfCROB57roVn8KfsmXmJMyTttaAvsszc9Na4kNQlAKccIByeOU4dAsMTwH9zmhPSQXryweU/cN0aSpODuENEw6RujW0ggnw2Q== X-YMail-OSG: Z2zCMIoVM1nIcleUCZSjWUZYma9YwZi3KgWHjjAnhXo.LwKYc_oK4Zi5gzn1MEL kl2XcPVfc.5T78by6KtYAJ1TdR4YAzN_Udr3gLlBrVRh6fw2gNQ_6dvJnwLjc_juKC.2rCQaE.PA t7Z8BfyZCXPGk4cPeXd96gkhqZV66W00cnw_fz4OkZyd9RxRvMC8bXgmKHZyLKLcHGzBQKkUf39l If4NJxPtbh4lSdq7tiRPxCDODfqTA8h0jwGh6.AqrEZJHfQkaVlPOsGu3LMa0LjLUVKcv_KoWwLi Xx_42ua6f1.3nPOiELPqi6HGSM5bWn3L7Y6ZcwAjYklVJxyIV_1UwWtjoLsCU5Wry2d9F5A7iSCt JXvKTGlb689D0T0Wb2.1.gcKISCcP_rdTa98I8MpYWNDlnmOQ28NXIuZthBGTMS_MbBg7__c2sm0 GMH7ZtPcReZcamz2Agrx0zIIHQHkBIYUQ34FCNfAJ9nMKhaggYvy3japoT5LiZ5JkT3EOave4hND 2wH4cNfzNqt5Ml2.PS1ytYaRhxK3bnxoGclnbpon_awvYyTrQXFigPrS9H7TwcsvL0AAtpFbnLsl 0WTnpta0D3JUb8CYMIjr25t0mQTOZSGvTe9SOPV9Ki0nF7e15USGXjy3da6zzGHMV9Y_LA9uWYsB 630bwzlsIY5OtMA2rjC4bwklt1DJmTE7pWkBG8K3JOzFscmcWhYsy2Vr4G1GSKZx_2iWUUa6GEeV BEnP7cZ7bWX8mpj0R5weQmQ0WYy_PjGOVYkAW02TQnQdD8xxRJevek1QjnxE2I7azUcPqKJV0Xi7 oX0u0MLpY3LE22SQh8blgnhg5ECIuDuOjtmE7FJXvoBKlOoWjgITiCmfMkeIBhRXBfGM_jxanv_G xOrA_9AQ.n4A9CueocY1jc7r_5jEdQxOyZUS4V4lb42RuDArtkA7nzP1xa2ya8fkvtwQfopOrSuf h1afC_RaKtyYx4Imx3TQrjND4UucG8rXjLAV57UPXOLRJsHjwamwSBRmyMM4kWP9YonhVmNUH2Uz H.QTq23J1_vNNDFLVi0p44avy4pTwL0X5PtHI_oJnrR3EBZTaQIZt2wZgFdv56zdPEQB.2spsUMc dsn7hbMz.R4IFU4fvp4hSyCoYDHOJb4ZAYxu.T_sEBfG1ID3LzMe_mBvShKy9OMvJBtg0HxtG5Df uRdF1cc3nHNNTAFRq47tsP0HNPTzil4e6MD7Xekvdcmca3MVhp_Gk5W5AH2u_M8d2AcKNZXqIKXu 4YX3kM9MTkIt2_UtTA0KdwSujwCTrJXJiYxC7_5YjXjBM5pHh_QTOEr6QfkEYJ3uWmStcR69eobS DkY5M3AIXCvQLm8cnEgRrtecGznYnKj.h.nJeI5Edpn6jvuBN3PXMXmnOugmcarqoTLGgTbT4K3b oxY1424LfcFMVq0lTpKDfgO2oLC.k4v0P.TB4oKvFbQvazDsVttLE23WPWfqJrTVmtKDHDZ0Fd1h bcSjRXI389yxuXB775kb0psffAB6lwI6Wpx6Gg12VR6lEeDtW1o1aUl9njTzjwrNuci2e4aKrW_A IDdkwMNx98dnw3Ugf7cQUCpGs.2LBbwCs38xib.KSSfwiml.z6XA98W.OV80nAqz2mdk6I2zS1U0 00x0aJpsv9nJXO5zh6eUeJDcfcjabbivHHdz8FiQsp29sde4wwCRGHNpE.R1lmyrtGss3N81Z9yC gDgBLKrbtlv_qHxLjfziqPVabOlnGyvB8R2Ssb95sIHUO1iz6vfebEsxmeNx8FohFl6FInwMFJxL _XeczkkTNdNs8r16M1uEvdQwhG1NsJ3HM3r3pJYFcPmQbAOgvQDUat8euFt.k7nczhCIj99WPTEy 4Cei6RNzYxzBI9052_9RrYQSRcMB4bUAOeXczO3.frF52q.KmK6Oz72wT.H4g42S6wI7YK1k6_8V 3t5w5sMJiSXjkqw6jjHCeHcKHXVM2fBWX03axdEW.kQ32dWhmff.V4T4g1b9Dp_onfAhwn2.Hn74 f_x3jetKk2IN8YJdn4FDLiXeBu0DBI7wNgqudTpU_lFAhqGjkXcWJEvfeQhquYr6VB6HwhVOACNA 2WKB4dLxzVg2A96ESV5WXhsxZ61E4HyiFNVYSoUwql.gMBsaznaxYDzMUTgCDRzK6weQQ7Es5FBv Q1TICbwTHunU.Zlb_.KAYkemiaN52IUE7UutO1Ykl_erc1t5PdNEhzqIJUErJs4D0wte61XUhNRT d0WXYQTDvp9ho3eWQhJep7STJU.pQLTbO2gmCFstaB.Zt0P9t_j9zx7peRw2TSihK7vJ__DeE X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 20a35240-c3eb-43d2-bc06-a65686a11f9a Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:20:59 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-57f7997989-dp725 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ee742727cb0aa7e8e750849f17a3838b; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:20:56 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:06:43 +0300") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 21:20:50 +0800 Message-ID: <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 921 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Dmitry Gutov writes: > I wasn't aware of that indication myself, FWIW. Or forgot. > > Regarding intermediate steps toward making 'lexical-binding: t' the > default, are you of the opinion that we've made enough of them now? > And will just be able to flip the default in some future release? > > All in all, I'd say the byte-compilation warning "file has no > =E2=80=98lexical-binding=E2=80=99 directive" which we already show might = suffice. But > it only helps after the user learns how to byte-compile files and/or > enable flymake-mode. We cannot make lexical binding the default until an adequately proficient writer is found to explain it within the Emacs Lisp introduction. Any volunteers? For doing so would certainly be more conducive towards that goal. But today's software types are generally more interested in the much simpler (if doubtfully efficacious) expedient that is coercion. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Po Lu Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Stefan Monnier , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16982413009832 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 13:41:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57754 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qve8h-0002YW-RG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:41:40 -0400 Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:50065) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qve8e-0002YG-4f for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:41:38 -0400 Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0DA3200932; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:40:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1698241259; x=1698327659; bh=zIAgXKGwRSAi6t5mpQWQIhvP5EHI2yUBkxm /Ma3/Je0=; b=IbLg119rvST0lAh82/Ev/w6+yEhEeJTGti4NdYxWTuRLKueF5Y/ Y069BcOXE4r0Cu18yOk5emSZuSpZ3EKbKTTjcugsAzfFAc7lDYSZRWOUhVlCsYz1 9/ALp/xbWeio4NB4PL2XWEmz6rMknGFle6NGVd8BDQXhEihypHE2kcwulOMHcwsz 1hKaax0yBPJwTwsJkEANYpIRufpPpA/I3wLwlcSZk8gqKCxpgxQUiWUpTG5uHS3u B9uNVwt9wM6SHbltDvVqKTNj+9CuYUjom6/jZiKfNas+18pA01Zt+J3yDt0fr4Ts Ukpql5RaVYr7Om0cw5RbzYsNDRgjm5CKY0Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1698241259; x=1698327659; bh=zIAgXKGwRSAi6t5mpQWQIhvP5EHI2yUBkxm /Ma3/Je0=; b=PLSRn7RV1n9ZaoI2P5LE6c+gLcP6DHE9XUz0NN3Akret1wdjOl6 wXxAVxNDy4NSYPHGBj4BvrXDLpdsdOj1Jm5UJFtNZRqsyk+o9STZUR7IvWf82dgE X6gmUSjiY7R4S2xb2sx7iCOrJFJ4ZXa9L17A95HB4X/5eCiHB/L+nmKYQ7BU6jT4 Fw9Zgu62uPBviWGhwDWvbYM3CCHSDos0PPHINADsG1cL15V/5VmsNPmLYF1+NjZq 8fFmibmaTOttHouDdKarh7tMzMbU4R6esHmK+3mH+Rxj7m3YZ7FUP47YPktuTp5q hCsciQ+1G2p9cM30n+Qf9RxCudObLWrvF/w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrledtgdeiiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepffhmihht rhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeeigfetveehveevffehledtueekieeikeeufeegudfgfeeghfdulefgfeevledv veenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegumh hithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4d66e353-5dc5-124a-574f-015f131d6982@gutov.dev> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:40:56 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On 25/10/2023 16:20, Po Lu wrote: > We cannot make lexical binding the default until an adequately > proficient writer is found to explain it within the Emacs Lisp > introduction. Do we have an explanation there of "dynamic binding"? Or mentions of any features that wouldn't work in the context of lexical binding (e.g. referencing a local variable of a caller function)? If so, those would be the places to start with. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Dmitry Gutov Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169824228713639 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 13:58:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59715 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qveOc-0003Xu-Ua for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:58:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49052) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qveOY-0003XL-Pn for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:58:05 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qveNy-0004ZB-1b; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:57:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=zeckM1Vmbq1y0dN9Q+UOFLfdswX4zShRq8SLGUCTd7Y=; b=e/S7tvstDI8N5GSNWw0l rmYQebjyEBC9nxbrOUSJ/ea2dee/K+9B5NLvFRFVWA/t+FcA0z8/0sKO7CvzviZjLA3ao8/MAOnOC tKWHpHAIKWtpAi0Gs4OOD+wR4iSeVENY7buCdE9qbfs1gG++Dd/zQ8TOMhDgUO5vCKdU7fTW7PLQc KDXEXQpdls0Rwko3L64WXHbwJWljeVqUIUXMtg6t3Ms2yxfoCypJflpyj5z+kl+CHj2HI4AR+WOJb VHohR3Ne4bQGuWit/AG2qREA2PNlnK+yZGgYgVevPkW3c72Tugz0+BpLBpWRAToibEbdiYnX5CPE6 Kieeu6UpkvliMw==; Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:57:30 +0300 Message-Id: <83v8auiz3p.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:06:43 +0300) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:06:43 +0300 > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com > From: Dmitry Gutov > > On 25/10/2023 15:03, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> From: Stefan Monnier > >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Mattias Engdegård > >> ,66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > >> stefankangas@gmail.com > >> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:01:25 -0400 > >> > Regarding intermediate steps toward making 'lexical-binding: t' the > default, are you of the opinion that we've made enough of them now? And > will just be able to flip the default in some future release? I thought we already answered this question by YES. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:00:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Po Lu Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169824598130287 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:00:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 14:59:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59770 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvfMD-0007sR-4c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:59:41 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:24159) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvfM8-0007sB-H7 for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:59:39 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 9A922807D7; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:59:00 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698245939; bh=WGrkMThpSnVQscD6AMdKDzBtfhpfaU4DuAG2fFwcWB4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=JTfyR2RN8mUErOOlSj7tV2itqmA/wB0ixCgsMl2Mbo2NpQW3Fkzixffb14Xeamrja Y2yPPi0adlW9swkdFe100q7jrWuMnqGP1DqdtJWeR+g8aIgQVHFMVyDfuRUrqhxDt4 vwKsQ9G3Ss2B4dqME/gPaZL2IogcVQk3b45MmHMTlvEQa/zZKLv2rbtq58JUuE32yz ggYwavIti4nVGlJ5/E7Rb1DdjwfSMGCCWk6/ibZ/l2aafpWXtEkFix5xZd9IYs8CxL aNVqjyT1dkpEhkz5LVCcg+c1lR8+Y1Ymjsho5IIMoZ4Xv6iDvonNLPHUODPZEvD93r 8tjLljancV07A== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 0987780409; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF3C712016C; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:58:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <87cyx227gx.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:48:46 +0800") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6mf1k43.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cyx227gx.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:56:50 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.070 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > OK, and why is it such a reply does not suffice? And why would any > measure short of initializing lexical-binding to t eliminate these > people, when so many have failed in the past? Initializing lexical-binding to t by default is currently not an option, because it would introduce too much breakage. For this reason, we need to take smaller steps that will later make this change possible. > How will the automatic insertion of lexical binding cookies in new files > affect M-: or IELM, both of which already execute lexically bound code? Because it will reduce the occurrence of the case where I copy a chunk of code which relies on dynbind and then incorrectly execute it in lexbind mode in `M-:` or ielm. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:15:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16982468829496 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:15:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 15:14:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59782 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvfaj-0002T5-H7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:14:41 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:56600) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvfaf-0002Sn-P0 for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:14:40 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 27BAF8014F; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:14:02 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698246840; bh=rPYUK3PGWsDoJCsmiyhEbSBTleF78JA+pC/IFW7HHC0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Kk1EZUO1CibYpvbdzQQ5QKdhKr283yk9TCXI4PbgYqR0hu0k5EVHdhUDK9Hs8qPjq uvjbk2IXDGEzbbXV+ahmGKXI5AzJIqSyitUd2gcwGDC1W3OXF91eL7BXXNAZp9t5bt YAWJVDGUqIiwjuQDgRogkw8rulyMbEvZcVGPvTaQo0BWYGjTvMn+rfhwljNZBLE+eJ T7RTYgS9Rd0KA2GF+MeBtNSR0dLPkz5SiDLG4sj2tINp5lQGTnw8hGPpyvhmf5Rdtq +ownIg5ByoLUdAgA4r3uIQQV9+y7eOmMVSXeHN5F5cGYZIryBs7o0oJwoCoUPI0STx 5uySZYQpIC+Kw== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id BBC9880409; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6A0412036E; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:14:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:03:12 +0300") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:11:52 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.070 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > I thought we already decided on that: we should make lexical-binding > the default at some point. The question is how to get to that point. My understanding is that we're waiting for enough files/packages to use lexbind so that the change will not introduce too much breakage. > Until then, I see no reason why the prominent indication on the mode > line should not be enough. It's much easier to write code directly in lexbind dialect than to go back and change existing code to adapt to the lexbind dialect. Since "we should make lexical-binding the default at some point", all files which come without `lexical-binding:t` cookie will need to go through the harder path, compared to those who started their life with that cookie. So inserting that cookie in new files would help our users take the easier road. For that same reason, it will cause less breakage when the default is changed, and thus will let us make this change sooner rather than later. Of course, maybe I'm not being bold enough and we shouldn't wait: let's change the default `lexical-binding` to t right away and just tell people to add a `lexical-binding:nil` cookie if they don't know how (or don't want to) adjust their code to the new dialect. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169824989914806 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:05:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 16:04:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59848 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgNO-0003qj-Kn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:04:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48794) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgNM-0003qU-8V for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:04:57 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgMm-0004hm-6A; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:04:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=hdN/lJXqg5ANgHQ9rAl3+kyNMQb7htpU63un5nvZU2M=; b=NeHr9i1ZpDFCUWWINKFG n+EkdKzBt1eyMzbEkkkn+XyhjWkt0hgEx1mn4n/1EzuUUOVInmUkhqC3gIWQXQcgkiJSNxTnlM2Kw /nMCDVu4WVz/aNg//6esVZM9PLbI3W/yOzuD58T1kbn9AIdWQ6Ktx8YH+x2wHfZ3aKmckuZVZx9un R0N9Pu6JsocG8EXh6QeNyAu5JqfYh2BMC8jUG2becK4Dj9m4SlSHCQeZLI4y377LLE+5miINY50c+ iDc1Lip9P9fG9n9QoBEgzYmXipsCFiNcep1tJSYW85rwbQo3wo6BVMT7Dkxt4QNb28k+foh3qGjHU 2gu/ojHnLYjI8w==; Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:04:23 +0300 Message-Id: <83pm12it88.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:56:50 -0400) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6mf1k43.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cyx227gx.fsf@yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Mattias Engdeg�rd > , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:56:50 -0400 > > > OK, and why is it such a reply does not suffice? And why would any > > measure short of initializing lexical-binding to t eliminate these > > people, when so many have failed in the past? > > Initializing lexical-binding to t by default is currently not an option, > because it would introduce too much breakage. For this reason, we need > to take smaller steps that will later make this change possible. I think if turning lexical-binding on by default is not yet possible, we should wait until it's possible. I see no need for any intermediate steps, certainly not for a step such as the one suggested here. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169825011915203 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:09:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 16:08:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59861 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgQx-0003x9-06 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:08:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55240) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgQv-0003wt-BM for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:08:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgQL-0005U1-2o; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:08:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=6z/2+c0H/MMMZD2Tk55coq/j08f88F2uW3Tn98DJuSs=; b=fqPKT5Ryu/FG lNXnaADduWHqMmQRnn6YE2lKpRBgJZEKQu6kvDNgbccmUwVCs4GBv1utQF3GnJGUl1GNPz4AHkQqr r96BojK8bxOaPki3StgXrh1rGFKGFtf84pTgoVqC3Vl7TzWl/t1sMTA0h+u65LDI2Us5wIcE9mnUW qIOV4MuOKpiXuiCXSqW1DOdPCJpxE8X6GLImztRHrfRU9qahbIHt5vIRTqdlty4Mjq+3neFfJbC13 /8j5b2S+Q+68nnPwLX4y30Kt+6KChLhywipY9NKUgTB1KK6KHiqUfaMc/eywLtAleCihqtyI354dG pF3+Uwt9c+sAoK2UNOnRsg==; Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:08:08 +0300 Message-Id: <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:11:52 -0400) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, > 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:11:52 -0400 > > > Until then, I see no reason why the prominent indication on the mode > > line should not be enough. > > It's much easier to write code directly in lexbind dialect than to go > back and change existing code to adapt to the lexbind dialect. If you think that inserting the cookie is okay, then it should also be okay to turn lexical-binding on by default. The effect is the same. > Of course, maybe I'm not being bold enough and we shouldn't wait: let's > change the default `lexical-binding` to t right away and just tell > people to add a `lexical-binding:nil` cookie if they don't know how (or > don't want to) adjust their code to the new dialect. If this is what you were arguing for, I could at least understand it. The measure proposed here I don't even understand. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169825030015505 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:12:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 16:11:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59871 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgTr-000421-UO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:11:40 -0400 Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.21]:44259) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgTn-00041k-J1 for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:11:38 -0400 Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E81E320090C; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:10:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1698250258; x=1698336658; bh=s03DDL0sb4TeC9FHuofUeNoIoXSYAPyK2N+ bdcYbSJU=; b=n+kFJfNc4LWV/t7o6Y2xpOULZGjSoQSydLxGyyf4WryAADOqVWA lZq2wqZhWrVjvCZ2KcjCOXKV41q9Q7B38f5OXwC+/IrVOi3uusfsjar0W4ZhkbYZ hfKhmxKf2It/ahEbNhwsmjMMgq4j4n4DhXmo+8XwWh6jCT6CdeVAWxzaUrY6VUa+ CPBak2rBnJ0p+U7pS3JPPOXYr1pDUzL5DoAj8s4RmDtdrEggOWDX2kTNzHA2Dk5g BN2Vo72UHQLBT+MRJtl+NwOPeL1jyzf0MIHDYmfdF6fyBrxImoDbolt1NsmZAzC+ kuqtI+h98TKOzFscQL9OwUj4+iYCXLfI7sA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1698250258; x=1698336658; bh=s03DDL0sb4TeC9FHuofUeNoIoXSYAPyK2N+ bdcYbSJU=; b=dUR8+aSHd+nEt6Z9riGspkTF9MvMIATSMwaS2X8DlxuTVtDkEVV 5TMqsoFBycw/on78xgOvX2TOzL6XBF8//fWscb6o3ny4RmDHCcTAFcqVmxQ2XZ+W j6gYVbxvDj6+08H6wegaSpYFVlzuLfMNrlxZ9mM9FCv4/VJ1MLitkixJ3BVSF5IA ugf9AER1qI8HFOPiqZB3i0Ltm9bRFqPs/rwuxYWlXsQIw0P8GRIvH5+Wp5M20tF9 M9hr67t0vXCSnOEdJfwB5m7KqJEizhuCxPNN8ZwVJ0ZEJF+mzusEjjfmphmAmc3j gMlnrpsoUXFMIrnpeejpi+OD8WLbC96gqng== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrledtgdeliecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepffhmihht rhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeeigfetveehveevffehledtueekieeikeeufeegudfgfeeghfdulefgfeevledv veenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegumh hithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5f43f9d6-e3c9-1be9-4676-1f27777901d0@gutov.dev> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:10:55 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On 25/10/2023 19:08, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Of course, maybe I'm not being bold enough and we shouldn't wait: let's >> change the default `lexical-binding` to t right away and just tell >> people to add a `lexical-binding:nil` cookie if they don't know how (or >> don't want to) adjust their code to the new dialect. > If this is what you were arguing for, I could at least understand it. > The measure proposed here I don't even understand. FWIW, if we flipped lexical-binding to t in the next release, that should also solve all user scenarios that were presented in this discussion. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:24:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Dmitry Gutov Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169825101416708 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:24:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 16:23:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59892 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgfN-0004LQ-T0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:23:34 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:26836) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvgfL-0004Kx-4o for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:23:32 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 6C963444999; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:55 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698250969; bh=yJZGFB/gElMwIw165s8uN1wiYeMC8njhcXPPoArGF3E=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=N6OpvDmxIGV7pamiwbCO82CQZDy3AVKYaeKSjk5sfYaaFy5J1sBmwOy6AGI1qOEFe haQZPXqAPpHkckP7Hm8wcdKRrpx2R+AXbzkPXoyJ41aYTr/TqYCflt0zuAoMp8DmVS MGgiaePKQCmDdLv1hMc1idioCiqVRbPCM22yxWsyXbC/PqzeOTrqhpG70ilUoXAqwq JIAk6Pb858o7/lx36GGsZU53PRb035e6BaIGxUaXZC/cz8tDSl/MqCamSOlTkrBOOI oZEMMdNJlS1crwyvcmhIYKQCsNAYN+79K27ntX82ZxVf8PnbWsmP/rycJepUc971h9 FYO3J/YglNbjw== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id C31CB44498A; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA70E1203EF; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <5f43f9d6-e3c9-1be9-4676-1f27777901d0@gutov.dev> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:10:55 +0300") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <5f43f9d6-e3c9-1be9-4676-1f27777901d0@gutov.dev> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:20:41 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.108 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > FWIW, if we flipped lexical-binding to t in the next release, that should > also solve all user scenarios that were presented in this discussion. Sounds good to me. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169825802229051 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:21:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 18:20:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60015 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qviUQ-0007YV-0o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:20:22 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]:58638) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qviUN-0007YG-QT for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:20:21 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507be298d2aso8822382e87.1 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:19:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698257983; x=1698862783; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=huGZFSljOLDuRyw7vz3FtNFyqmQwwqBAXhV5/ISYl+M=; b=GZ++lxRRJhF+Y3aJ+86JLMA+fXi8pJx7oqtW/mP/jMsr23ybKm+fNNroszxoXaimk5 9Z/DZpvG8zYT3NXDbk6/80U9CLqh+g2rhahLdBZvZJJvOemKGaztpXXmF1JZ8Fq1RcxX fvKqSPUAbAOTVMjIn4U4kySESxOl1QWJOZtCEv+wNan+8YFfGSkzDMYG97gCIv22WC9T DwEe3fG39c0z26MDqnjyQ3/bpZ7T/CgiplfSWjL77T6NI2VCPt93gUodCj2+WaBwwk+C +4SCkL1EBT8YH9S98O3Bla6G9kMryM0T/OvooJZ0h25WwY4hYEPERWIrRbRMXYfCLGGE tyFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698257983; x=1698862783; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=huGZFSljOLDuRyw7vz3FtNFyqmQwwqBAXhV5/ISYl+M=; b=KbNpMAQpfch1N4RJVono3x0pxfor5ASxz3ctmucAf9zAiJaLcfh5Q4LA0g5MxFOv1B wUPKxR4XKqSwnbT/aZ8+tb3HabKIeKSCC2Gf4qhSrxTBGXMZxHB4uEIuZU+p47aIkodp iDeQlmWWZMYMuJUP/Psm1XKL0o1K52Ig3J8p2AJDANTWsuY875bDOPkp1B0tpdWyFo+f HX+oD2wGI+sXJDcNpGjs+FvU6og9u8SdpNzcmYYlMWuW7W8gO5eh5FWPUaoeKBijBmW3 JzUlP/PhBOLBCs96fgWKYm/S2iNUnvez/wj88L4nivnzkhV0mfV4X444JalhVP9+OfLe x7bA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzJsavou20lrwqg3xgxHLvYT3BK1Ux3Fodh7j6dJBy+1ogd0RJF DJodyWG6uhF5L13u1B+3BTI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEpahem4u6HirUw1w6NrglQK3AkMYJkCk/Ya0rCYlQ1UR7L+ghVOX/JQ8WS3KXIO13r0aH3LQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac2:42c2:0:b0:507:b7db:1deb with SMTP id n2-20020ac242c2000000b00507b7db1debmr10021476lfl.38.1698257982540; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c188-150-165-235.bredband.tele2.se. [188.150.165.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id dw24-20020a0565122c9800b004ff96c09b47sm2626601lfb.260.2023.10.25.11.19.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:19:40 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) 25 okt. 2023 kl. 18.08 skrev Eli Zaretskii : > If you think that inserting the cookie is okay, then it should also be > okay to turn lexical-binding on by default. The effect is the same. No, the automatic cookie insertion doesn't affect existing code. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:41:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169825924831300 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:41:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 18:40:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60038 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvioB-00088l-LK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:40:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40756) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvio8-00088N-19 for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:40:46 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvinW-0000Nv-V4; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:40:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=MsHPPqGSja5zCHqa2Js9J/c2Vst4zreOBhXRV60M/T4=; b=mQt/6/ogwhVFGLdqQU1n ESMUZmiQtWGpW5Xa+TwFW7CMZyWJnQO0UpnmFwb8gQT08FYDzG1JY9e1r65awplK2hWaQF5+N+C9Z VOpyckRo+YQcH6ArKh7ipIdApiu3LmQwORSidFCApBuB/4tDz3XlqDJBeI+VikIdrppNUiIIBo5Up 8Xq1hSE3scSkGvc8I3iejK66sOMydPA2xQapdHl5zCm9MDCLsZnaZWxIRTdYXcTfh4NDgJKPDTZWz 4zyFI44cOTJoMF/VwTTkZso7aRK+4TRp7IwGgQ4GxnzLxXC7Qnv3Bj3mEhw7Ntdb/h8nF4txQPswT LHDd0Shj5AY6BA==; Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 21:40:13 +0300 Message-Id: <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> (message from Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:19:40 +0200) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Mattias Engdegård > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:19:40 +0200 > Cc: Stefan Monnier , > luangruo@yahoo.com, > 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com > > 25 okt. 2023 kl. 18.08 skrev Eli Zaretskii : > > > If you think that inserting the cookie is okay, then it should also be > > okay to turn lexical-binding on by default. The effect is the same. > > No, the automatic cookie insertion doesn't affect existing code. Which is even worse, because some files will use lexical-binding, and others will use dynamic binding. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16982610122360 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 19:10:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60045 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvjGd-0000c0-Gr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:10:11 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]:46525) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvjGY-0000bM-Bc for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:10:10 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2c50305c5c4so1130411fa.1 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:09:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698260969; x=1698865769; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NB08UKc9JrJX+wnpbvO4cVFfOk1k+9LxqPsjLx5lqwE=; b=ZrLDXAwOphK8eBuWJKTGqu4+i5MUuzCylP20m30SmA/GuxwGt0ZWoaVZIePSPr8qzM EseqaVgXRkefWcYUbU+9OoxzyFDHJZDE/xyC4lCrNp1qcIGuNAdLSxE+j91VplSGw8Cr Xt5/ogu/W8GEpKcb1trpMfMHzHJvozOQBBQ9N6jBC5X0Zyd0u1KmfTz4pSWqhMIDYBxi yo9Zd2L6rKCvY0w59dTf61cCfk6OlmQF1PNmyhvCpn7S3eht5A/ZaD6NVyHomf5A7v7v W7yCc/mENxagoPrisNp60CWCcwf4CiL4b6ykGEQDcRhxVI9SknFLQCG0zo8cUyEB4KZ1 StLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698260969; x=1698865769; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NB08UKc9JrJX+wnpbvO4cVFfOk1k+9LxqPsjLx5lqwE=; b=cWuY/c5B9tFOUtXUFza+cZAhRiK0DQ3sUoobqsiMfVThsnC+sqHIfpnYfBdHUu1oN1 ZcLVhgRYR6p3jxv7NoQTh+jU66ebwhY+VV4BtKJ7p4lhQR1v7gAEntkJRpTAyAanapiH KAjj2KZ83h0vwS9lEuxb0hdV5aFPh6GAYSyEjRQ3PNSGkzf6heS1mUe0tvAy8Hq0aYNp iZEGNSORwGwFB23UgSTWQwehbgh5oeahx8U1U+vzUlu9auR7bCf8Gyri5zxHBAva7yOr VOjxXeHhQtZBYDkbxnSfpiuTDIsksJXVrx7LYTJAXLXY5WjyG+oF7kwCqQ2eO5UIaezo 6q2A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyPQDXb605zuKY+g3JJBegDPT7zLuLfG28yogv59Z07AGsWGqzm CqGXcWvOL1ZmLnGbJJ01+HY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFitvgHJqtDvl5FNd+O2XnGFVPeOjlQWm9WEybOBGztk5dnZR2Q+sVVGSlOitrN43XWMSvMDw== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7c17:0:b0:2c0:33be:3530 with SMTP id x23-20020a2e7c17000000b002c033be3530mr10983118ljc.45.1698260969309; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c188-150-165-235.bredband.tele2.se. [188.150.165.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y5-20020a2e9785000000b002b6d68b520esm2467691lji.65.2023.10.25.12.09.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 21:09:27 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) 25 okt. 2023 kl. 20.40 skrev Eli Zaretskii : >> No, the automatic cookie insertion doesn't affect existing code. >=20 > Which is even worse, because some files will use lexical-binding, and > others will use dynamic binding. In other words just like now (but better, since hardly any new code will = use dynamic binding). It depends on how much sympathy you have with people having existing = code written in the old dialect. It could be argued that they should = have converted their code long ago, but that assumes that they know that = they actually have that problem. Only now do we have a compiler warning telling them, which is only = effective if (a) people recompile their code when they upgrade Emacs = (which they don't need to do because we are almost too good at .elc = backward compatibility, and some run their code interpreted all the = time) and (b) they look at at the warning and decide to take action. We can and probably should try to devise other methods to catch those = falling through the net, but the assumption was also that we should give = them some time between being aware of the problem and being forced to do = something. Of course, this can be discussed. Indeed, ripping off the bandage quickly can also sometimes be the best = solution. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16982774529004 (code B ref 66706); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2023 23:44:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60229 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnXo-0002LA-05 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:44:12 -0400 Received: from sonic316-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.147]:36093) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnXj-0002Kj-I6 for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:44:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698277411; bh=a5tmp0uVlFagX6QKKIAPbmHA5c9OR17j9pH9778kiio=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=RCuwgHVXu8GetYgF0r7CQ5Kumpjzt8A8gkds9vdqg9hBmZJ+kYV7310a8sNTGzKsMUlIg80g+LMBzZHFnVaaZzU69YpjfX2Rg974eF2qoDTIA04xMVQtwehGs2PqVAauiM34KnSTt0841LNJutG6pUQkOvz3WEXfTyFcSlRKAxnly36mrTOYqE/+K+7SaOjETFuejXVkMiR4Swthdc/8BskVxzUb1fe07dkN9cdBOBgiAgC2kRUYqUxtiyfvzRJGCIBXqy2blUmvyXogsLCjjfdWACL7PbfgJlfaWOMDCp4zg/IOpFtC5b6ohGOT0Ez4aVIHpNp/WsiEd7QDLf6bTQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698277411; bh=P04fUEKHfa4DLC2xjKOCLjHdrP5Ae6zsdWseSAtBlXH=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=kQKde+c2hBHc1M6E6ihjfU2IbJWR6/GoOzffcj2RhvRDLrDR+d9zxtXZ/6ymB84aefkiGSV3vmIfpAhMxsIQdbr/M4TDXI0RIeS/0rOCDgJx+KtGAK3oOhcV+eZjE4J1gx/2GnIrkMKd0J1TvtCx8ZeP9NJzufAXShKUPG75W5ukZnLkNbxjzEqwcJfcl8qvc7ijQeFcxNGup1ZrNoRhBUqyAyOJEJxx467vFYPaCKREjNzw4BfeNsCP8eFyWflWmHoxJb+i5ym/XA5kz0IlSYeTmzVd62iiy9DD0+ZZ7bf38QGOqno2gTgDPBVkQbDnkhQTfO50naddfsmaZqixLQ== X-YMail-OSG: yjhCECkVM1kp0YUP9f0BAIrfrxIXDt6ibJBfNl9J73xPprCDvflGrPkgCn6RIuW pJZcCK8D9j2ubgGqZMrf2za1nvk4eG2ODZELoow7X7.o8l_bLfg4x8uVIzsxkReIoHiJp8PWaVg4 J0o0ZHzerUJhRn1csKkVofirbEMZXHw8ce.M39aWwYNhDsF.WM5m1OpKEJrQiB8viyCgSQzvKl1Y MavSpjxE4kNCJTW.zxLx6PxYJkT7795.5prYeGai0vXTqU4QR.Yzb1FFf1ZZNbQaf3j5meaIwGoW kw8KoBq98amOwIomZcx1IUleWaUhXdr4HRUIRfhUA2dhDDPRPD62J_pMbhSvZa.mceaidKLFk5ZW CaEJxkSw.5u5TchXv7fGSFi67Sb0gbapjK_k.9NxF1fxvXfj8KmJgsD_pjPSJ3WUqeTOa2Sacuum tJqO9OomN1waC7djYFRD7IKVVr8L9GMLZifzeUc2jgVLfXlbUEN.VViN3S1ILRpmebicTNDHBRxT ibEhHKZcAsWe1lOWiyZdvl7G8AyuB91UnL5CyAQCB5VMMsmmogDyEDzfK1xvWGsTaxgORP_qV6vp Ociz8syeIvbw1pLfnMBAj1h.7_4wXjQO3hbFYJ3dlC1eiN5YRYmQLAM.xPxSpVHcQpVu9.J9tt6P I964GYYXMxxhfleoRIBCiiqeg.0QLwhDV3GUsB7VYV1HnKLQKw.2A5cVLgwRb8W15IauEVUQMnYI tCwHMRiEIgwYWdaO6v2nPpFaDa4Ah3RO.hF4VD6SurQJ474uv7yRcmL_kSL4KEJHVPg705l.jqkp Emqk3o_wOi3stFFKeBFI8rwtmE1_SZuxTpT5sC4JVXkpLWuiFnPVDmdMO3Yz5RcQcwrkguCtxuJC hcFl6M4F7FDlTSduUJENS21QxeFiNZIGVY0bwDGSvS0qJYmMXTIG3TMfW10LywIZC5hl2LxS1pO_ GKbGe_wvAX6OWBZA9647JTuYW6SJ2ASwEYMMawWXb0Tb.mvHmRCX0647BFBHPR65OwDG.nF9MxgD Ev84ps1M9zq6gtFjzzO7sjiWPbB8TQ..rMpJKb83WLlFEjZlvjkzBB9iqsV8BLtE2Hwm7lM7gkZX FzWhYJh0mkmdUxLiZ7PBBPfNv5hKNn8I1OXwOv4Sn2gibx2p4QjrfFDsxzuyUui2gY2pezzUXZ5W EBMVsYC9efTSJc7yvSiHIYu102cw9XkggEpo39umCcWvaHQIE6069V_lgyDrCjoHreVcrYkbVCCM ggo_0FgTLYTsJafisEdxNZZ69GWWcr3c5bX7IShZwj6.bjMKdx02lo5ecc_887vN3nxoxxDrE3eN jIOlFqs1hFQXMqqCsWp3Wsw6RkkKrB2uF4PoM6xcAzjXHYWty93WGSRu2BZ_wf5Bhn2CCYczACoX w6m3ULupePTsKcH84j5v7uHpMCc4ZI_TkifdoQoDXbBLFPKiI4NpiIfOgRf_d6RebRk6P50Pnwty V.j7hHcHj60GQwkBDfQ0FNKTEwRfWxMkoO9EwfG7yf4I1_0kK3E4SmDicufkhsgK1dAR_P9a1u0g MD.ciVWkb879EJG55i3eXrHq8jyiKR6HP9d1HRhW5pxvArNcdJFVpmZN19nZQ_YFX48AksZH88vJ C01zH7D.1WJoWFMmXOYHNeM8kx4mzYgJcws91Ky95aAMFI9UVJ3pI3U.Pw7csZYzR_n8E93tKZJH QxPyXcr0JoSzraJEd0lIHn7cZrxzEhwWnPSqYxhTklJl_aQh0u_G1.blTaXbZeX543MSv3ZC_65N SXeUlpVpgKqe0FvBABFVbwpAYeaSVwiHQioQRVAjimYdN8iiSji7_mvOqTQtf.SS8xmktKaG3o9O e4l23QYgko4ttskS8iIv_8xD_roa3.C1NFTU4oc0neuqjR8Z_MMCtdMea0nyN8J.ngDAuNQpQTwq 6iPAU2_yTA1e9j6A37ZfdsTw43GclRT8gizijPaCBN3BG0vpwWoO2OYr_QG4ksfnDZ4rD4Zu11Wq O1yRuAGznaXn_YKPXYuWXylsiF3LOt5gQGnUqxDdZLiqiiO2BNEnaOkQRkN38PrcfHrtVdYLl9gl Faqv7J735SB0o0Dd7mDBZD2XFvfYqFA.awgVO3BpBQppjh0oQNKa05q4XYqStNnq1TCYM9jG4rHr b6aJF3K32WgOPYTHrP43uaDLso4SGI4gLhd49hRc0mpXJ6QjQ.3LIqBCqQwId7cnKXlU_UoZRKym mhJE39qQYWQbS0ccS00bvzF3WnEhldqeKEhphIf..i17Ay1OIQZ34ScVq X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 6733a392-a56c-4d61-8590-707a6d979c10 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:43:31 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-8696d769c6-b69bx (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 62ac5ce2057be1d5e1b2abfa9939ba3b; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:43:27 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> ("Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?="'s message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 21:09:27 +0200") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:43:01 +0800 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 784 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd writes: > In other words just like now (but better, since hardly any new code > will use dynamic binding). That's a theory, one inconsistent with the results of all other measures to promote lexical binding that we have taken so far. > It depends on how much sympathy you have with people having existing > code written in the old dialect. It could be argued that they should > have converted their code long ago, but that assumes that they know > that they actually have that problem. The mere existence of dynamically bound code is not a problem, and nothing enjoins users to convert their code. This is the sort of fallacious thinking that leads people to propose draconian measures such as the subject of this bug report. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169827856811168 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:03:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 00:02:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60241 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnpo-0002u4-3q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:02:48 -0400 Received: from sonic306-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.84]:36919) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnpm-0002tm-4u for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:02:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698278530; bh=QvrKo1ZFpj8ztHYwELvzxCWAx2ne9xPJYuQYZEfm5+s=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=AGD7xp3JFe8r1a382izQJPOkVf0T0wIc5Ybk4ZjHCbs6c58xWS/BGm51LCdQlFm+e0EJ20+quC/uIOWRnHLMljdoKtvRv6TvzDHy1OpCjBM3HspfvSHnh37IRxAWMujojQbWAxb0cXEOLsJxd8b37B2tcLz42gIhGiZ7KZLxBfNVb5LamrYinaoilAu6o5VJusMKQJPa7IohJOOfoKcH3JMPIL+DynJo3qgp4m9KJOUrVY7pVPUhdKC15JFqDeJXr8qxWqZhOcNIyrEIXTSfun+/2zRxWCSr0zh3hxJZd57Vdk/9wMXdEEis169o9a07cPbqRwYJv9qP0iJ9zoTW1Q== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698278530; bh=a7ThXBsA9y6CYPCCthNPE310rRdJxJDjnMb05qm1I+n=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=XcWXw3AvWTO6iSDvoySP+UrUiwbrRpIQgh5eprDgo3QLcTPfISMgOZlsdt61h02WFF+HzwSZW41HV19bOtHD8+cocUmqK1qa9qbOdoILE+WBzoa02HMgyRV3aviK7uGbZvkr3OAudsyfg1vFbxN3iFRFzHyJx7pAKui6Y3zqfbHyHD1NTknGNowisRbMM2j/HDVjiAY8mhJOrFPzWmQArxxDCG2qExUOVoZ2ndaxbGXvs9YW3XLv+KmX9OJuQr3aHASWoXB0SwGSFOj5aBoAHXa27Rf6Z2txGXijY4gMWtmruczPgWgsfQDg+ia4XqOT+rL7Sg0q1J+R2d08KMGrcA== X-YMail-OSG: zfSCdesVM1l.VxPt1ElWbKgf.4.UoTBXNFT.Si8Mm2vRbWLn.Jg_y6TAIiqGLs. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 98018e941e0c3f79ebc207364d42130f; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:02:03 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:56:50 -0400") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6mf1k43.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cyx227gx.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:01:40 +0800 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1832 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: >> OK, and why is it such a reply does not suffice? And why would any >> measure short of initializing lexical-binding to t eliminate these >> people, when so many have failed in the past? > > Initializing lexical-binding to t by default is currently not an > option, because it would introduce too much breakage. For this > reason, we need to take smaller steps that will later make this change > possible. As previously mentioned, the law of diminishing returns now applies in full force. The intensity of our measures has grown substantially from merely introducing lexical binding, to converting all our code to use it, displaying a prominent indicator in the mode line, and ultimately generating warnings when dynamically bound code is compiled. The proposed measure ups the ante from wheedling to browbeating, with scarcely any evidence to substantiate the assertion that it will reduce the (already negligible) prevalence of dynamic binding. What's next, duress? Perhaps that will first take the form of a prohibition on dynamically bound packages in ELPA, and gradually toughen thereafter? One genuine step towards enabling lexical binding by default is the revision of the Lisp introduction to describe it. Of course time and again, people here have demonstrated themselves so much more eager for imperiousness towards users than the comparatively bland task of writing. Or perhaps such users of Emacs as those qualified to undertake this writing don't share your fervor for lexical binding. Which can only be a good thing, as it were. > Because it will reduce the occurrence of the case where I copy a chunk > of code which relies on dynbind and then incorrectly execute it in > lexbind mode in `M-:` or ielm. The incidence of such code is low as it stands. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:04:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169827863811287 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:04:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 00:03:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60246 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnqo-0002vs-In for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:03:58 -0400 Received: from sonic305-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.148]:43918) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnqm-0002vd-KV for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:03:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698278592; bh=ZfxI3pfcQ+RmztmnuSNT3IcRRy10GQ9D/JdBPpPtUl8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=IJ7j1RBUMkCKSkg8FIlHD8fq7Fcc12VTWhN3i3VXJp+ZH7nRMaSCvBIa3trEnNvCGd9Do/HgCtX33nr03UHquz9x8BOFYapiwvhPNQtLajzXbMu5NDKFGlzrFTONzZ8MZHSoMDsFOf5ExtOuoenTz9UGBSM2Wxit4pQUUEXdcOd5Jzoou548XH1o4rwHl6fFjK7GfJnFokZ47edxr63yF0tqW2m9lzIzIU+LFKZO5ei6lX2CFQaeSBJfzN++CRqWv7uz7CE3budgwYLiYHT7Qu8nq7KNrY+/6dzgZZd49YCbyXjWHnjg+7c5yKEXVQ+R5l6LuXsdrM8hHH1iJhLMuQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698278592; bh=zxZnvJ0NzJpesdZFzVHrwE86gbxg1ri4fLAdGrILYcz=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=kOuP4eYTCJ7gMQOcoun1ZkDzVfn2LpIeIiYWXlIuDv2bwQaldYYTOI2TXdibfbsJSsx/RwF/n3iszdKeNdC4g+blmBEVynOFiKEtVb7zSxr+3kS6t3g0NJQAoQWPdGsK9hTjyVDOZT7A/ILuaoie0B8kxs6NSzVBPrvUtGKroey3Do/LrX4YhDamCziWnWFvrjuRS/DssP3IpxULqoi5WVms7d/YaK9tdfIAgQLqQAol40CSFTKeMitrj+e4/eknRXGgprY3CeDX3IllG43tC2NjHHr38i4ICn6Dl80COLBF4hAgZsd7SGNIRFoww5dMqFxpohQy/CwtbbjouHrACQ== X-YMail-OSG: HO0e5R4VM1lurUjuk0PBL3vBwVdQWDNRy27Cg3Y39Nx4hhWnn4hu6RxIxINmKt1 Wisx83t4_Si7l4HHIw61ThJYxTj3uZ87kUgYTaudsUWgrqH0uXInVW0WQj0sn7l1BaFgJFzUjY.0 KBo3GOYbBL4Uxfrylyls6XgcXhyeoMioZf7fliOyYlfmisIMeFHCdTTaJ_ap822mPNibIZZ75w4a o53yTOX09IjiaKfvwEyKL2nstJ9R3RkSIw9Ajvls3bt18v1j9_cCqf52SfFOH1liOvfRM_mEMiI6 SDLhugc3WrSNv9.3F9kHj_4vrjpTrA618zbSVJMCs4wm0Y81OrMPuZ4qYs_rqO_0YatuxYE2rUwy ZoDG4vjaUVv54txMbTNtq4s2nz94qejNRr3urU15ksuq5b7WN4vEoE0eSiRYWxs07.jjnqLzsLT6 c0QwC76D3JHYliyOwKIkp88bH0Q2C.Cdaqt4YQhXs.GPBrIwyYoOfSXDW5.xbI3iBWeuI2RB6f2t HyeeXXhERZcA3kXibXhhcgMTRMWj6d6Q5bWGO2cZH_4QDNq35hyDQdmUGn_nJOvHLaBcBFLzP892 CGXa0iPzPwxFqEuqVaSKlcqOI44zy.DCbgHNfRGKATwNpkC9E6gZ19spX3qUVGXkyHm_PjRZPRlW yWm3snVgPKdjsrch8tXTyk8csIL.PpCsbNxe3A2RiXYKdu69vDccVIpg8Xlj2SP_NiV1fPzT1a5P 0bWRWJ8VjlqHocUf9lzn7QcEypKOP.ILZdVA2xYbmusVx4c7hJBp7Ce5eVJUGrf8ApGFkIxvTLO8 8VJOFdHTIi6e3egXzsLx2q6qwEbWm4cAIMJpO6GAl3JZPAdtW063SGNX_T_X_FElToteo4ZA4Nkz o7s0.xfTVmpvOKZDhGpAVKLbU.P0jP.OEYj90Xze0XiY8Pk7pCPIeCjzUjzi66bsAwHqZVz47imh CFNP4eXu_iumZ0Z38AoUu8PS8imQ.wUUkWhxAMoreNvDbzy238UeIOJhlSHsiRIom5yMbpp2qcJq YCW9fAGnBvjTYVwMXqo525X0sNEqzEzFrk.z4gzBkPDICCWox.2rGj4mcgM4W2OCec.Ge5vrzZJm cUeVZpAgVmN4TpTCDHf9FXNuIIJ3AnQlhc44uzG_0PsT0dHbDJLcz3mf9.l6UdYnS_MLLLvGJ4yT yx77eNTDnBFfsRUQL7opzxzikhF9XBIfGzxB9_zXKkm0RKcLk6K98MDDbWfEmR_M6JpvZFlS1WRC qMsg388DPByuacFO8GrAS_T4Lrb4hoBu.uL0Y1MAaRHH4Etfu3pN6Yp9F8L78dfIczqXkfb.dkWC gTSo5BPHO8Ee3fg1TCrQczE7t_Lyd23oWIcsuL5BLZ10qTeYEeO8xVI4.fmnP3m2sMWQo8WYeQVh 10GqouGTg6kiqstz63eeVHuk2j1OseuyOA5kbA3grdMHaNW7Pcj7DRkJIXfa0gg1QEpGVnGW_9he ch4TxUW7hkRJFjy3oDf6Y0qRBLRlzr4YQGPlsAPsRI9V8zH2AXoX1FVGDROv6d9Q.sLq3rWr9mKg EHdNwFsVzcyWkpITG9cXPMFn8jPi_qYCiRRH_I8AcvdMNY9VfqEIvnBy6aDW2FOljf4kK3f1dhOU zAndJaAkyS.k3kvbnR.mK5_8AiMSa4kxMFjeL_nZtdao8NbfehELUyUoj2qHTeami1ya1YtRMdFS TTsZDqq3kzmh5GNkUnBxX13T5BhEor1BouacAzJBuH2QTFB3mdbGy9OzbdY68TcJOaEY7XSDR_R4 pRPYASM8YpcHwCxvqsXKK1WiR9k6E19twTb1YkMPVlg8PeZvQ3Z4xqVeLF99hRmhvsLcFR4rgQuF 3fUIfvv0uKkDpVQfok99B_e0vSoVL3xVAkHK0hlBlfEpfwQGgsqEMFCFprXQ_TjFMZNSqO1tWFcw T3Ep.wR9wVpTekgrrTus4GP_tlExebwGqWvnNtEj6k1qALwRFfYP5VXnDUDGc88xn_3UdgfQlyVY GcPlSR95L8n4pk3rRSIL4ui1IA8axEUH4TCE2xEDnIMfNHhUVx0BH6xqNMfNFosYHohiTtBlTULd hhNcaJpCY6Xzsfu408U8GSMryg613QatoScFR5vKg6IVM2HEMtsKOOmTCiaL8qoZCGpwhfdocraK XcFEO_a6a55psdPRAGtx3lGIjHVFZflbCME7uR9XWmzmscSr6LHggIh1_I10iqZWuZxF.6IXbQ2y q7qOipjE2Bpaze9AFlECOjWG8wAR3aJ7Xu2a.QgqwPUaScWVBBJc3.xNvF3kZPz0j_dg_ X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 49aecc11-d446-46d4-ad3d-fec50618363d Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:03:12 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-8696d769c6-tw8ps (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8a0043fb93805f06fef2010814d09c7c; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:03:07 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:20:41 -0400") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <5f43f9d6-e3c9-1be9-4676-1f27777901d0@gutov.dev> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:02:39 +0800 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 297 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: >> FWIW, if we flipped lexical-binding to t in the next release, that >> should >> also solve all user scenarios that were presented in this >> discussion. > > Sounds good to me. > > > Stefan Who will update the Emacs Lisp introduction? From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Jim Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Po Lu , Dmitry Gutov Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii , mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169827886211651 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 00:07:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60250 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnuY-00031q-Fn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:07:42 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]:50257) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnuV-00031b-Aq for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:07:40 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6b201a93c9cso292788b3a.0 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698278823; x=1698883623; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xRiXwRYwSzy141x7Q3R4KpqfpfPvl5LLdUdLXl3YBrY=; b=U2Ly2F1z2J7cZfrud2VxxkwHYVm/wCUJIK+oNN3eenTKC2IgV9GwAuF4TmmxMd1QdV peP2rvgHnmZpIINGNP44FtcErfXm+n/mtyOeEnxpIUAZ30+4sVUC673FyhZtj7rq/BhM RPhRdLj9WCXM3ab3y0Rv6LftZkiVHwToyk/zS5/K7jBwOowXu6E5hIJ3+NsxF6gppxFy aZChqJjNZqaoWWZCT9QdXTgz6Tyb3T6wdckCdwu+5m65uCg6b51vmL0+7ZbQt9ngIDXD ob92viyCk4kGw6yg8mYAhCGqQmuf8CR+z9eUB+z2GoMoWiFoDrazT7hhEnwPtjtDEdwM a6ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698278823; x=1698883623; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xRiXwRYwSzy141x7Q3R4KpqfpfPvl5LLdUdLXl3YBrY=; b=MchRhC7QqgJyr3/6x8UsbbqQe7I6gQ4YWpdCT1i4hWmnEAejAh/sVdyjtysLq9+3Ed T2F8naK3YNdia2LzGg0jBsqJ1+36jPsR9FvvsRXcpQotM+Qpd1Us8+8e4xmiWFXM3u2a MYt1KQDC4rl4OLUIOhiFPzRxjf3k5XlqhWjXkKiX66zFvGDrPqxDa1+4QWgHEyOsFewl 2X4Vd0tPfMe3NoS5IE+lbDkFR2ejVSa9dJZnwvttyJ6Dbfd/mSuo6Ia9819sqmtIGFIR lrGA/y6+eyVR4TR51HlHsfpRmzXOmwtHr5aDOXZvp7U6v/AUI6C9qOf1gKgKduYrtq+t tQVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YygS7GDlNyOW4EMT+j6MVm32bHYXvTtEzX8Ir1esgZ5H2ep0GqU 853VQsVy8H2lY3tITsfJRDw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFdk4U6g5nMtHZJd52y0PItPGIq0qHvZwrdS2IVHaxhhV6xY6lyTtJHE+b3VGetMLexEa1xQA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a21:4841:b0:16b:74bb:e57e with SMTP id au1-20020a056a21484100b0016b74bbe57emr7025945pzc.12.1698278822617; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com. [76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ix21-20020a170902f81500b001c0a414695dsm9759430plb.62.2023.10.25.17.07.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> From: Jim Porter In-Reply-To: <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 10/25/2023 6:20 AM, Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote: > We cannot make lexical binding the default until an adequately > proficient writer is found to explain it within the Emacs Lisp > introduction. Any volunteers? For doing so would certainly be more > conducive towards that goal. If we can get some high-level agreement on things that this explanation should include (I'm not sure how much detail we want to go into in the ELisp Intro), I could take a stab at it. In particular, what's missing from the following paragraph[1]? > Another way to think about let is that it is like a setq that is temporary and local. The values set by let are automatically undone when the let is finished. The setting only affects expressions that are inside the bounds of the let expression. In computer science jargon, we would say the binding of a symbol is visible only in functions called in the let form; in Emacs Lisp, the default scoping is dynamic, not lexical. (The non-default lexical binding is not discussed in this manual.) [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/Prevent-confusion.html From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Jim Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:09:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , Eli Zaretskii Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169827891511755 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:09:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 00:08:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60254 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnvO-00033W-Sh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:08:35 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]:48196) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvnvM-00033D-Hf for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:08:33 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6b5e6301a19so310591b3a.0 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:08:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698278876; x=1698883676; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=4rxiCPHk3Ct6KKMHJDfI6PaIc9SxlULolwMBpwIzYbQ=; b=JqA+YJij1Dazl3g4W9wDLXcHONhXxvm+eyiGhqbKGpIsUDMayAjk71IE1UHDYWxMFL 0mbu3gIcotQVyZy7mwTd7aAqAhO5+at8uXupbEXpHGaRJKQ3tKE5qJ/YwW+Tym46T9kL 4l+01LZlXnfRj+kEv/bu09j5+xNee6SX8dcLoE9sF3ILyqppnxrMNXQHDFLZ79wGx6bL e2kz94wadIxQNRfXuyDDd4jVQbMVUFRPHFHGT6JTMvIseL4In2IsF/1nWRM7UK/eGtne x455HO/f8gWoITffeGWjSX8BCMAN+DrZATq3G1vwzVqGTav2BKGFcx0MALmzwQnDCYRb HcwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698278876; x=1698883676; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=4rxiCPHk3Ct6KKMHJDfI6PaIc9SxlULolwMBpwIzYbQ=; b=SPW7rQfXqwh/pPfDLqJdFuYear2Oeyi2UCtQZoqUZtr8JYNEM+BMvgxUKj0GN++k6h CGcV7Q0S4qwCGNKhZVKVF/N2qGBoQL11eLgfK5RrsyEyT3GoZUfMHiGpY60zQGkpqXbX imcp6HLFPi2Ey4WK5Jm+dLqH/8sw3+SszyDeGo9PwicBMOKcHsvXF7dfv7nhyCk+s6gV 3HrjisTyMZRYb35nQfNK3/bXmDS7SkXt0kzbGpbyVAyF/OwJjBkMRDPdpG1xXzjDFfGL Qe6z9doCJQUUn76sBzT1L2qb+zv1MX3Zyow11G//oFs6clEAMfrl0zH0S0vrdztTtG/u etnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw4+f1s6HwtAhCnKccb0BHEMmuIWP42ElzWB4Y3XjutGG3DAG0v 8UlAQpovOvzoa1f0ZR3z6ZQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG1VkSkMh4pbwMzfNiC6D6s85E8TdePzzLOgAWWCqiRyhJ9hafEi2+cDfnhWYmt+ltL1qmeOA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:158a:b0:6b4:231b:a45c with SMTP id u10-20020a056a00158a00b006b4231ba45cmr19566554pfk.26.1698278876385; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com. [76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y3-20020a62f243000000b00682d79199e7sm9842846pfl.200.2023.10.25.17.07.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> From: Jim Porter In-Reply-To: <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 10/25/2023 12:09 PM, Mattias Engdegård wrote: > Only now do we have a compiler warning telling them, which is only effective if (a) people recompile their code when they upgrade Emacs (which they don't need to do because we are almost too good at .elc backward compatibility, and some run their code interpreted all the time) and (b) they look at at the warning and decide to take action. Assuming we don't want to flip the default for 'lexical-binding' just yet, would it be possible to warn the user any time they load interpreted code that uses dynamic binding? We could potentially do the same for .elc files that were implicitly compiled with dynamic binding (i.e. without a "lexical-binding: nil" cookie), but in my opinion it would suffice to warn users when they recompile that file. There's nothing I'm aware of that makes the dynamically-bound .elc *wrong*; it's just not preferred, and one day, you might get a lexically-bound .elc instead. Or we could just flip the default now. - Jim From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Dmitry Gutov Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Stefan Kangas , monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169828036014186 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 00:32:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60279 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvoIi-0003gj-4M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:32:40 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:41997) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvoIc-0003gR-Qz for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:32:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1698280309; x=1698885109; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=y8/vSYnkgUT4lu3uxCzTKAvW2afSb8K1nRcJvwHCV/c=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Date; b=k4I7uqFf6z8YiiNIbR5aM2a6e06qMuigRaMhGmsdSawWpBZx2gQ+Knzvy+tegv2G dBY1QpgTEK7TnZbDud6D4VVbPjiSHlesWchlWjODiRG510j7umbPl50D2mQJXryoK jlNbyPxHwgiphnQzB9j4wdtjfJwZZtobbby7pIIZRlfsxO69GnHMiWmt/GluOCRvQ cvyMRgN6VbCX/d29GM98ur7I+W6XuEyU1S6LNHKZcGCqSfUY0w6PQI/yK27mJfEUQ t+f72IHfHLOfDVyEaQvmKg10MBqifyackquu/wTxNwRbU/r0tMVu1W4b78EeoKDn0 ahqFhNrD1zI1mUl0vQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.159]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mvbiu-1roBrH0OMI-00srRI; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:31:49 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:54:55 +0300") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:31:57 +0200 Message-ID: <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Hpy2c/z79hkKoJVLf6evo8C9xAfCMW4zkPjbLwlmsVQTD8fPR6f U3Co3iUOpczWjKJ7E01/sBKKcfMAsHayEzUdEFB+P7YUdlmbbBc+U6dSJO2fs4TDbWVQfFT mSehuYe50fHjYepAXqf6RjTTnazft+dgXZyihzL2xPM7elGJfmpuTT10nizBebPzwSDbuHM 8awe7UM6+FoSAC9oJ/VPw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:amaaHYnniFM=;0Q4tDE9DdbVpbqSXBJRakoIdnjj DBzFylmDUgzWvEWGdNEMAEmgDocd1HEv/vnRKDf0B0YnFfMYRoa3yZG61vqvOKv0k3/errlhL dEgwcYJ0aPug0MM1RT3MM6/6U/96uaRIe02NHypw2NesLTKADnp8sTiiMnmVhwEpYVL3CSzFk C5QDXEvCjb4nIfcsKZXINjYaGVoRbzqwAerCqfiKYtT7MCQ6IrJuJo3qeBdIi1UMjnHhm14Tw kE2ib3Ecjcyp9Zt80zX5R1eL7dMS+RqtRjyOVPjhBHFnEY683z8+y+AhE8G/ssRTPp/tnirKG 8NMD/TtCrC7drUkT8VWMfeWgfz1eNQUmtoYic78GkFmH86qHwZpU+0FnL3sGtaojh9XglzStu bT40CwOXc0kMGZjuGLJo0/xP3hr05aOWViquV03CEmNcACURtI2IYZSG4jqdX+kHlir9p0TSl yx6YJRnBfOBFCECyU6qA1z6F2hRJ+7aA9bru4K1cUQPcoRD0ZQJ9B9tkDcjrM5GpQqe2Vq/zB 8jMUqs0OKPhw52NqhwvOwwTHzJprgwd5XyR1I7RY78C9cQSZuyzQaZO8SgQ/2TXv/u1Qz+IbP +dBHpXTrOpozIhIb+e8eniut7wOotPne2XouNo1/hmdv5NCKWjELB98h06rdYvzryNgnaNXQ0 7KGmTE8+nhVoz5m6D5YrS52FezJN8540azBONxeTUIW0xYOB6IwdAInYd+Z1k1TkZ4Wrp2kgB FNMLOWbjurutMue5TOo5VPjTWqrcjAUjMnl0nyoGZouxahm9WX333a3FYEGl42y0nTwF5QZaE GXd8x6kNPoVwHNQZMVxuZshQIkwkA8bFB+qUYChfgTzWWW9smk3OdM0fJSD9B6uTImZSOFYDu 6DECM/+N0UAk6nwEGt6QJedDscFjSIVvXPhQ47lOZofjsQMYO7lfQGGO3b5qUk7+xPKfiN8wb x/9ujQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Dmitry Gutov writes: > There will be such users, but their number will likely be lower than > some might expect, simply because the lexical dialect very much > resembles how programs are written in other languages these days. Short version of my reply: Emacs users are a different group than Elisp package developers. Let's help them by forcing a lexical binding cookie in the config file instead of simply making their Emacs potentially not starting up. Long version: I guess most new users have not read much of the Emacs manual before trying Emacs and starting a user config file. Most of them will not have started their config file using a lexical-binding:t cookie. That means: Most new users started their learning experience of Elisp using the dynamical dialect. Since Lisp is not that widespread, not all Emacs users are programmers, and not all programmers take the time to care about such a detail as long as the tool works, I would think that the numbers of users which will see a broken config would be higher than you expect. And a lot of them will not know immediately how to fix it, because this might make not so trivial changes necessary. Without having their tool at hand. Not cool. This would be an unfriendly and annoying thing we would do to some users. Especially when Emacs is still perfectly able to interpret the file. I really hope we find a different way. We could temporarily make a cookie mandatory for user config files, and make Emacs barf at startup if a cookie missing (or ask about what to do: insert the cookie for you, ask which dialect to use for this time), but still use dynamical binding at least for a few releases so that Emacs will still start up, instead of forcing lexical-binding interpretation on a file that has only ever been interpreted using dynamical binding in the past. Michael. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Jim Porter Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Dmitry Gutov , stefankangas@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169828090415005 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 00:41:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60288 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvoRT-0003tw-9M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:41:44 -0400 Received: from sonic303-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.148]:41211) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvoRC-0003tR-PN for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:41:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698280850; bh=Ys3KTL0yy3Qdh0RJPfRramUVhq6XrOP8qCi//sEr6HM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=Uq6IS6hxMoE64cLNayBPgEo6xCKX7SFI4ehfdhGKfJaKy7xZQonwHuxWUKuAcGyyHNE/6nDbLxV3KodXVoOv601AdIL2SXHQ0SWDNRvTBkXEWzCQfMb7+fD2uxO0dyzboj7hvYQd25/r/xhuvz/z9ZQzJALXW0C32mkBC+lYm0n+95UUcT7ttvObN3IinukZ1rqoo6lX6p0wbRsdwCzsDtFOSB70EbmbR6Luot/N0Rqv6NwUwAzRm0nnIh2YCdS4yBtUd7tuiDbk12kawadpSajo88lSLKK5glSA9enaDCaD+VA33dSw3rmFot4EeBoOfu/fXVlWbMvjhXru96IByA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698280850; bh=F3aY+8Lfxa8s45JPWRsZm2SQXbsVT0Pqgywjki7gT+p=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=UuhYM/p+BTMBgSIyyIi41Ba2mPNP4kabnBMP4saHdQA5XsgobVK7vHmXat1b4tDA3lsT+UfPJ/owt81R5XctI9kQ4+XQmkeoY6v2vveMC3oF+KCmfcZVViEBhEf9g/HUFPGi2bNr2F57VjBqzteW6lKi5Q7S/3jFsUK72kSCT0sHuoeIn0fuauDINPf9pqHR/gbdFveZoNahZPCzOUEerhcEXUMOLYznRlZwfpbOSvcr0hyNxXgQVdNE+JekY5STUCmK/aQoE5EHoB3oM3J/aKXNRSrf+g8zooMEKkjJFTkduCzBiUEZgC5c7YNnW6kqK2ojZzVhctEVKOLNWIJFXw== X-YMail-OSG: B4gDZx0VM1k4O95FXModYXsJW77.qxCziJ0VJUuwZaOV4L3bkg7p4PcVoMsWu1X YO8Ef7XTwEvGFTu1ZToFUK1RK4ahSnHQODFzL4ObH55hnB1a2gugmRwFU4hD4WGOq1qGhv4L8vbn Jub6hsgQk75IHUfAC4MixP0DCE112HcPJ_0I9guHwwrFAebFoCSewCOtPay3xF6xXXHwjBrjDOu4 It7ym8aBVAjDs69mdTW5QVOM.Og8bB1lufjXwGNTya4K.WCjTS1t8V9Sf5rfGlbCa_3eljS.efI5 NXl9.FxP1TgVgKIwk0ADxW_kC8cmjHce8WNxa1WlpYKBQ8EHcc0j66SzTxSCz1FsvQSf.WI5AUpH bM2MHzs.gJ5iUwQ55YaDYkGGA99vRxxlUpKN5AsdwH3uT.WQF8rUDBA1xTFwutQu9WKPcT8hp3G7 M69p0KsxdIlPgjsfoL2EwCcs4l9K31jugcrwoeHk72tC5JqC3oDPxeK1fYew4MYwmySLnFSTsGTE iS7aQImYy1ob04YuQ1STLIUcmkY3PmkildZfdqHIIm_J63rOJJNq6mbX6t_Hi9gaAogK_StgI7ZC cSEij31Dg6iaRZla2XY4ymPeXjMGh8MTmbAdjRiNI3nJtzynMc0en.DLk1uSSmOJT7_gP6oaR_o2 uRHbbT1xNv7oZRzZ8BiEMRyshOaZNxfsmtaFsr0ll2hDwn3IshNmoVIcQqfw2I7t7uytzVdmH9Sm whHuwg2adqGpiNY.AiIuWcSVGMaTdWvVJvZINYMls.IAimnpQDZfGIgMdHnbhoAetDYT0m8DHBeb 429UfmuYjtNl2V2K06yHKwbFNG_i9XH0dsMRiKi_6D4r4QPrZ.I53WYw9.dAaQlR8nxwn1qMeOIc wRDlqTbYV.AGOQGZLhkTWRfsiQMjb04DZUSP9hFdZEALTb_FMn7ki1KVK_R71hucIUfTp59zoPvr 816aoihkx6EFqb4hl.QGWn12C38AhUECutDGhrhUed5mMs97SqnEXp1TMef.cEGVVesMDbGGzRsZ fKLp.YF1LCwoeBWydyRAWudQGJL8ipfxn4QFy7tbhcfdRc7nmCG7ikdF_LmnYwUz6Rmd7fkFdWDt 0M0bt0Rj3KerZ8b61ox7PqNAUYC32u4p5.wGVQPCWtLHBkJpDXvItX8A84flu_FcjLrRIlgiP7Eu .mk3Fv9OC6zhjIHMgf1JY7e4VyDfjUNzwoTuQT.K.dUQKGWlHzy2yh95u_pTf9tQCxnJwIuFvUw4 rGbHnAtqXlkEyFVUO4t3KUfxZvbNGKFOZClRA0cYBF_eNJHk5GbxfjpdepxDz0V2y24Q5O3VWQAG 2g8JIAQpvCs.9dfmyJQksy3qtA0Ecw8mjKkVEpcHEOlBptx3SurqTQss5QaZL7WgKLERHv5a4CLB QSe_If6nf6mUTueLbvVD76q9eYyLGEU8xn90pH98xhfj2_ijcZFFosHQvFXU8lKckctOvTeOlTiB DGnUM_9IV9kTYxfTG_0dOLpihW0B9vmunUQRhO_YgXt49X9A6y7R1tCsrKSEuB4_WnfOKXgYr6kx P8XNTu4CwJjUQtwgcaNduA6ScpY82OQrozieUZctpve0G615RXAlYY.NmlY6HH5Onl7oH9bbrr_5 ncGKQWjf4G9YOFp1FM0_NP_NDBUWtwPRUY5PxiuJWoJK1wCBFkRYHZC87Hg8WRYKktxTZ2_AmLwy zqSrMTQRjWY7J9FoMdTWgqw_AaFiZctFJhLNZ9Yl12GISnqe9r9z6ulGr0JroxdyY9BoY0_HscEx ffO9asqUm0r4C0OHiDTjYImeGA4UM6Wsq4i7iXWUxabfEIH_q7m9Vg8_X7mep_xbE6sMd0ix0C11 .MebG4On.cuGREsrolbONa9L9XqlSG7bX79xenxDKH0_YzYaLfol0lyZWw6PioiEXzVZ.qgq7BIe MNI58xQ7nEqMHyvi2fG43xLKRBRkLU5ZZKAEPMPTMdTQRiqFuOldZyyWu0IPhymWDancfSbBNZOd nCmliMAQnvyfKgYnAyLtj_Gpzjn_aRS3ZhcHXHzNwWZBxIoE3QEd88Vv_qJ9eyE77KxH75iMrnt2 79u5Ah7yTOOXdx0bE.40WLzu8DP8dXG.gknbYe6zJJau1SoFM1AheqtWelRpLTLr0_cjnilytOMF vcR_R9ZOnU9LKyWpRtv5nD9uZWSRjoMPWm_CzDukoTdhp.ulDcVbP.BziaoDiJxjMun2KDgWjA2q 20yDgRuWAL_cm7KOwiU63ngDYxWvNWjQD_Ec0MDOgrvyojHApxulzt0DjJjpYn.PjBHmWZfBJ45c rzw-- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: abcce988-d849-41bc-84c2-2b96778df869 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:40:50 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-8696d769c6-46q4z (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 6bbe9dd1200fd89a8246f9f89c61561c; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:40:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Jim Porter's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:00 -0700") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:40:36 +0800 Message-ID: <87zg06z057.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 672 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Jim Porter writes: > If we can get some high-level agreement on things that this > explanation should include (I'm not sure how much detail we want to go > into in the ELisp Intro), I could take a stab at it. > > In particular, what's missing from the following paragraph[1]? I'm not certain. My recollection of the previous discussion is that the entire manual must be revised to relate lexical binding to the complete novice, without sacrificing the clarity or simplicity of the text in the process. The latter is a real pickle, for its original author has since left us, and no other technical writers of his stature remain at our disposal. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:53:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Jim Porter Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Po Lu , Dmitry Gutov , stefankangas@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169828154616299 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:53:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 00:52:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60297 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvobq-0004Eo-8v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:52:26 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:9831) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvobn-0004Ea-8s for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:52:24 -0400 Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 57FD6100126; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:51:47 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698281506; bh=xU5kY063E61b500eNTvh6k/wPwvhFPABI1t0g2cY/yE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Xn0r0Nmik/yVS0HnOZ87APfywWPbhMEnbU1fCVcxzp7ZaxOgbQp+saKCO9HSe4BQ1 bNfe4h2pVth/PoQ0NG6EY9VNnyKEbSZWGcjAaccIlYV568elSPRPxWOEWGY6rxpbx6 8wG01Ok87e9lDmNiWOh28aPMxgfha7Fjn87s3AJvNbeO+EMvzWVlxQwzSCkACPoAlZ jIVQC2VbShNypRXn3nYj+n3xJffTvZRfNlr2rumkP9TAPjlu14DehPHkTKLdc5ndam EGgifbC/kvAUMxiXFlARAsJVHHwPbB8aWa/Wr+8Kq6DXV5JeCccfPWc+RFlsQCV3oW mylpeXCEdDaSg== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id B7E70100033; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.216.111]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 61F2F120432; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:51:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: (Jim Porter's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:00 -0700") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:51:44 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.149 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > In particular, what's missing from the following paragraph[1]? > >> Another way to think about let is that it is like a setq that is temporary >> and local. The values set by let are automatically undone when the let is >> finished. The setting only affects expressions that are inside the bounds >> of the let expression. In computer science jargon, we would say the >> binding of a symbol is visible only in functions called in the let form; >> in Emacs Lisp, the default scoping is dynamic, not lexical. (The >> non-default lexical binding is not discussed in this manual.) Nothing is "missing" but the above describes dynamic binding, static binding has a different behavior which is not like "a setq at the beginning which is undone at the end". So this paragraph needs to be fully rewritten. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Jim Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Po Lu , Dmitry Gutov , stefankangas@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169828320318874 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:21:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 01:20:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60310 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvp2Y-0004uM-FI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 21:20:02 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]:45500) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvp2U-0004tj-BP for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 21:20:01 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6b36e1fcee9so315833b3a.3 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:19:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698283162; x=1698887962; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XT2GWLtr83cZM+Lt2/0I9/PMyDEYw96+OiLmrOKMx1c=; b=dYGJxHa6TCK+BOKuDlCa/oOuVInBDHJRQkFOIX9HBLTQV0PXpWoWsz+6NeUy6KkVMR 17xfTKsifkqKuNgAvVcm4RTd6JZcmdfE3b7dKkSZm++flx7kuVazzzZllfvHdziwFpYd 4NydUR5fkiBBLDHTxCM1iNK8VFxqJSameb2ej2nkPqkljPdG5tOQIkFmwjBlAx/848d4 kZ7FAyvAc3/CS1E0ssowAaF1+3zHzigIwIhHNJ3YugqL2t+IPxNWLSY5CVaEdy/Yl9f1 VKBLCSr6XRdYeTXB9pLeqaGYZcRx8KZ7p8YGQj5ZaFQXaWxHzj2cE1M8phsVA44Pxjpm hmGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698283162; x=1698887962; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XT2GWLtr83cZM+Lt2/0I9/PMyDEYw96+OiLmrOKMx1c=; b=ibCuZuKm14xsE0SCbYNuxFrBnEKc0NYQcXrTsQuaHWnhqqXHrBLueR5+eK/9Qknztx CieCsNvcVqvP/pjdYL6JEtA5OOF30wHhFM59+NFOQg1uLipA++qtAlgxtqRHMiBoXCgD vpGcmALjJ5J6EI7dx0MCg1RSdEhD2kIX/TwYwujS/9FHoU+3cQkipBTPFiKSNO02ChYM nKanB3+6ftKr4/OvfZmt49y7JI2MzI2d8K/SJhmpOpQ3XF1uvfHDgNMovrVBuUwOaet6 kVoZh/jiv1z0WwkoNLpbQ/kGlUVkSyh5qPEdR35gs6F55xj87Sv/0eCf2I2mtxYjj3ix 0GGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw8fQlegTkXlXc/lw+Oyk1g3AG0JZhxpLRW0kBD+GKRcG5R1it6 pcqEX8QQlSeqMOX29+GNjr0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH7MhMYyLTMRz83b+O4M0Ast4/3u2d+ivEVdcFHC1HO0g0VeXcwr7NetSIztPOrCf+63kesSA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:b47:b0:68f:f650:3035 with SMTP id p7-20020a056a000b4700b0068ff6503035mr16767910pfo.12.1698283161892; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com. [76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w14-20020aa7954e000000b006b287c0ed63sm9949112pfq.137.2023.10.25.18.19.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:19:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> From: Jim Porter In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 10/25/2023 5:51 PM, Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote: >> In particular, what's missing from the following paragraph[1]? >> >>> Another way to think about let is that it is like a setq that is temporary >>> and local. The values set by let are automatically undone when the let is >>> finished. The setting only affects expressions that are inside the bounds >>> of the let expression. In computer science jargon, we would say the >>> binding of a symbol is visible only in functions called in the let form; >>> in Emacs Lisp, the default scoping is dynamic, not lexical. (The >>> non-default lexical binding is not discussed in this manual.) > > Nothing is "missing" but the above describes dynamic binding, static > binding has a different behavior which is not like "a setq at the > beginning which is undone at the end". So this paragraph needs to be > fully rewritten. This is helpful. The bit about 'setq' seemed a bit roundabout (to say the least), and while I can see how it might help explain 'let' to a novice, it's probably more likely to mislead them instead. I'll start with a patch here then. I think this is also a prime spot to add an example or two that would actually show lexical binding in action (i.e. a sample where the code would do something different under dynamic binding). - Jim From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Jim Porter Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Dmitry Gutov , Stefan Monnier , Eli Zaretskii , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169828452120882 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 01:42:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60319 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvpNo-0005Qj-Pn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 313c15f451ef077a994bd4484a5d28a0; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:41:16 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Jim Porter's message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:19:20 -0700") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:41:08 +0800 Message-ID: <87v8auyxcb.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 668 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Jim Porter writes: > This is helpful. The bit about 'setq' seemed a bit roundabout (to say > the least), and while I can see how it might help explain 'let' to a > novice, it's probably more likely to mislead them instead. > > I'll start with a patch here then. I think this is also a prime spot > to add an example or two that would actually show lexical binding in > action (i.e. a sample where the code would do something different > under dynamic binding). > > - Jim Does anyone recall the # of the previous bug report this subject was last explored in detail in? Where IIRC this boiled down to the absence of someone like Bob Chassell? From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Jim Porter , Po Lu , Dmitry Gutov Cc: Eli Zaretskii , "66706@debbugs.gnu.org" <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>, "mattias.engdegard@gmail.com" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" , Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169828735825513 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:30:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 02:29:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60328 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvq7a-0006dQ-1a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:29:18 -0400 Received: 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classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2310170001 definitions=main-2310260019 X-Proofpoint-GUID: HB2XZ4csRfa2i7Dg04oJi9lENkaiYDl8 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: HB2XZ4csRfa2i7Dg04oJi9lENkaiYDl8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Nothing is "missing" but the above describes dynamic binding, static > binding has a different behavior which is not like "a setq at the > beginning which is undone at the end". So this paragraph needs to be > fully rewritten. Exactly. You put it simpler than I did. ;-) From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Jim Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 03:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Po Lu , Dmitry Gutov , stefankangas@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16982921292124 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 03:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 03:48:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60372 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvrMW-0000Y7-6b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:48:49 -0400 Received: from mail-oi1-x230.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::230]:52663) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvrMP-0000Wz-HK for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:48:46 -0400 Received: by mail-oi1-x230.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3b2ea7cc821so275097b6e.1 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:48:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698292085; x=1698896885; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=in-reply-to:references:cc:to:from:content-language:subject :mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=IL5ITPuLT37epEyLbaxowdA13rLBE1LBnjN6YGSux7A=; b=nM48RS/YskBiECY9OTtsBOlJ6VeExONfFr2MWDVHFyHssNNgHHilu+Mvo56bpaWU4t xLQazlLXbbH5oiqxlor2I2Vl7FQDoneFPU5JGtbNzf4cSfCjjRYXj6vXdBfUXpLJoDVg ip8x7el7KfuHpoP/PUcgt4+7XxetDt8oefUG0WTJa8HdMfa1q/PbhyiwDOhztTr3Z2DD 3ErTR+4vtVGpPk//V6dq4fyIYL6rIZ8ezhOblvOt0p/mSvSC91fgerhRKLF9tFxdNm4u Fn1CBRenI38Ps5P0G/FVDfZzR9jpUbQRE//aYzK+WWNpS4VWbKh5c4L1hjarjUBvMkvH nZcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698292085; x=1698896885; h=in-reply-to:references:cc:to:from:content-language:subject :mime-version:date:message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IL5ITPuLT37epEyLbaxowdA13rLBE1LBnjN6YGSux7A=; b=kRNC+gGxF1zVlGW+ZzXhp7H5P5OhVkPGc33Ro5w3AR1Rc86GVb1v4nZkbgxkaco26g wru+O6EWVodAjr2+7R9ih9SvIG04doTyIiMKlN1Nl3tghZXY/DK8RbxNt2VEKf2SIRn9 vWW2GIYypMsjowiT9M45x1oIhhHByJpIMvSJ9pnLsYOd/2VULs+Gzm2G1Vk7ABGLvz3w RTZZE02nuQzwp/3V71cce1tWE/f52MA1/3BM9ObjTvethXUG6Rgd5cVd929ks+KHMLSp 6o31l108dqapWEgjbnBoyTqHAyGf/tIuH5QU3oA02tFVL0WXE8+yJcnuzx6y22/gvDdd TxpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyJv1FJKFAmLwra6jdzQJRbJBFlTaUdhRiACH0AaWg4900gdx3l F3bIRy5UJrq5XWO9AopHeK4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG38dgSTIsFFjQ8n8Uj/2Bd8auzgTUL6eMXY+60zo44LKWXuBiANW75vsf/f1p4Z2yYO2sJ2g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:144f:b0:3b2:e3d0:862b with SMTP id x15-20020a056808144f00b003b2e3d0862bmr20781995oiv.57.1698292085087; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com. [76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y5-20020aa793c5000000b006926506de1csm10058578pff.28.2023.10.25.20.48.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------mBofXQeMnPtJ08pmad8qSDWP" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:48:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US From: Jim Porter References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------mBofXQeMnPtJ08pmad8qSDWP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/25/2023 6:19 PM, Jim Porter wrote: > I'll start with a patch here then. I think this is also a prime spot to > add an example or two that would actually show lexical binding in action > (i.e. a sample where the code would do something different under dynamic > binding). Here's a first attempt. I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it (the digression into setting 'lexical-binding' to 't' is a bit disruptive), but hopefully it's an improvement. Of course, we can keep adjusting this further as needed. --------------mBofXQeMnPtJ08pmad8qSDWP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename*0="0001-Introduce-let-using-lexical-binding-in-the-Lisp-Intr.pa"; filename*1="tch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSA2YmM5YmJiYjk4MTA1ZjcwMGJiOGQ1YjA0ZThkZTVlMjYxZWZhNzc3IE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBKaW0gUG9ydGVyIDxqcG9ydGVyYnVnc0BnbWFpbC5j b20+CkRhdGU6IFdlZCwgMjUgT2N0IDIwMjMgMjA6NDM6NTcgLTA3MDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BB VENIXSBJbnRyb2R1Y2UgJ2xldCcgdXNpbmcgbGV4aWNhbCBiaW5kaW5nIGluIHRoZSBMaXNw CiBJbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24KCiogZG9jL2xpc3BpbnRyby9lbWFjcy1saXNwLWludHJvLnRleGkg KFByZXZlbnQgY29uZnVzaW9uKTogUmVuYW1lIHRvLi4uCihXaHkgVXNlIGxldD8pOiAuLi4g dGhpcywgYW5kIHJld29yayB0aGUgZXhwbGFuYXRpb24gdG8gZGlzY3VzcwpsZXhpY2FsIGJp bmRpbmcgKGluY2x1ZGluZyBob3cgdG8gZW5hYmxlIGl0KS4KLS0tCiBkb2MvbGlzcGludHJv 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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ju22-20020a170903429600b001c625d6ffccsm9920422plb.129.2023.10.25.20.56.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:56:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> From: Jim Porter In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 10/25/2023 7:34 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >> Assuming we don't want to flip the default for 'lexical-binding' just >> yet, would it be possible to warn the user any time they load >> interpreted code that uses dynamic binding? > > I hope you don't really mean code that > uses dynamic binding. Yeah, that was poorly worded. I should have said "warn the user any time they load interpreted code without a 'lexical-binding' cookie". From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 05:23:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Jim Porter Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, luangruo@yahoo.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169829772212693 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 05:23:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 05:22:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60419 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvsok-0003If-Ao for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:22:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60944) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvsof-0003I3-8J for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:22:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvso4-000683-Tl; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:21:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=IwzYhfWP2u3yxF4BAag2tS8BWfi0iXPkhGRCpA3Q3ik=; b=U3wqv/5PGRmT 8/yxnMVRJDpnQbCw3LD9NL/jC0x/1V5KZfyRS02wtX78As/Nv8iNp7dDxBdA0nLYurNaE7PLJ3J+1 nhF+9Yq9b72JgGjkWVIFV9Igyn9EV0w388DwzN24ZS3ylaspSzG5rRKBNQb2UrjAJLSoa89YXzclc cFqGJO3y0zKlXR3DSg5AfdiuUS6AzJOnWVzOD08fqYBzohC7CpKqUhjMHtG/agRwfF4/YsK9QARlZ qq014ZopMV8XzqOvR1vxeF0kxZPNQShBw5yQGzNCHOfi7e4sytRZRA2loAZR2Zf8uoOUbOxxT0+UC un8J7MTCipsNTsEHHraB2A==; Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:21:29 +0300 Message-Id: <8334xyhsbq.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Jim Porter on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:00 -0700) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:00 -0700 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Stefan Monnier , > stefankangas@gmail.com > From: Jim Porter > > In particular, what's missing from the following paragraph[1]? > > > Another way to think about let is that it is like a setq that is temporary and local. The values set by let are automatically undone when the let is finished. The setting only affects expressions that are inside the bounds of the let expression. In computer science jargon, we would say the binding of a symbol is visible only in functions called in the let form; in Emacs Lisp, the default scoping is dynamic, not lexical. (The non-default lexical binding is not discussed in this manual.) > [1] > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/Prevent-confusion.html IMNSHO, it is woefully incomplete. Much more needs to be said. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 05:24:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Jim Porter Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169829781312850 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 05:24:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 05:23:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60424 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvsq4-0003L3-OV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:23:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53358) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvsq2-0003Kk-SN for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:23:23 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvspS-0006GM-Ug; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:22:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=73bnsJbg7FXXZCoVmfHp2Yua2ed26+bo8yLzadjUMp0=; b=YDyaNInlMO5K4ACB3h+c i3MvhjjaUHbNR3FZabvhL9r/3Y+YePgaG8DHTvlhYE3s3eUAcoyP0K3ues3TqGwPQJh5XH+aEdKAP 46KsE4mQ5+5N9O1x2xTKtjkHEHtMymH/oRTVPkW8B2kzBsX439LQXJNVUMfqjqOmueAPf6E+L+UFJ YYxR++EosQj5N7BC0r87dE08eZAPjCqS2RjjgsBtXrQN4dLBWUjGD3iTNcUR4hMXXnj1FqrMLB2mW FUUzZMDb+VVsX0Rr+DFhYK2k8ZsOPoPHGp4EQgs92/iJdYmd+qHKoJlQxs0Omy9qnt8OEVjGpvRMB p/SM60p0Q9fNXA==; Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:22:55 +0300 Message-Id: <831qdihs9c.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> (message from Jim Porter on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:55 -0700) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:07:55 -0700 > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, > stefankangas@gmail.com > From: Jim Porter > > On 10/25/2023 12:09 PM, Mattias Engdegård wrote: > > Only now do we have a compiler warning telling them, which is only effective if (a) people recompile their code when they upgrade Emacs (which they don't need to do because we are almost too good at .elc backward compatibility, and some run their code interpreted all the time) and (b) they look at at the warning and decide to take action. > > Assuming we don't want to flip the default for 'lexical-binding' just > yet, would it be possible to warn the user any time they load > interpreted code that uses dynamic binding? We already do: on the mode line. Doing more would be an annoyance. E.g., many init files use dynamic binding. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Jim Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 05:57:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, Po Lu , Dmitry Gutov , stefankangas@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169829980916994 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 05:57:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 05:56:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60451 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvtMP-0004Q1-9Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:56:49 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]:45401) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvtMN-0004Pm-6O for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:56:47 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-565e54cb93aso441408a12.3 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:56:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698299771; x=1698904571; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:cc:to:from :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=m4qtSlfw0So7w1tKenD6t9s5mT9EVhVSUWf2U0r+cZk=; b=AiJnI01SvY6vIdLWRPycEFrQukCCqBJLAkRPdq5tnFqjx0Wt1MSN7jdaUqY1HHfV79 9gJpN7gxZLG+oCmW2yMBg6f1kM9tBLlhq57ZIdlpHg7jdYfNMF3e5cM7sl81R+FMIeN0 XUIw6EJi9PTwHM14yx+u+xOqc4dFJmzLZ5is8KheNoOA30rfaDq8n+S6To4y74a+ZKDa 8Cu4NaZQ93+qBH0re/AV7m1mxVrvphTdQWo07OhOzpXpfHbwPoDuDimbd9YATZoY8d0I W+XpkmsGOvRxtXiSMM9J17aGL2X1cu31Nh/ndAGBxykbdlXmC2k6Zk2uZUmfmZGne0PH vEDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698299771; x=1698904571; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:cc:to:from :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=m4qtSlfw0So7w1tKenD6t9s5mT9EVhVSUWf2U0r+cZk=; b=HRkLIf9BEV8wOVYCpnw2SRD+40jyx0ykeCRddp91D/Uyb6jpRzNTDRakJ85duW64n9 XVl3+nsT0mIaLz82+VM/hm2queZ3FiHOUCkWHp8QwgTVLRLGE0AYQg2rJouTO5tN+jl0 V5KfDSetdHc/HPt5g35FLWMx5HrxCeVqUngZjLoDc/cx/7s5JkB7E0zlb6QQZZqjUKC6 R3ve7Av8q+2HAN+g7bN2/dVs+4AsFolFpLuS37I6a+gpvV/+3cVWJbgo7NeKsaBAqHsr WKexSy40ioEDyRXeFM5PumFYCX+aBt8fQzo/QhXm61MIOP+JKGY5+Vc4xcyWY4jOXOcH hBng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwKgtVcKoXc1PVuK9XD7RGHGigQrcMgVd55y15z2xvfNH2mxZ37 X3+rlTRTTHgGIcrNE3qmG00= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IERB4lSj3XU5OlRApgBMS5Y7rJQAKU2oj3Gi+gj8Uc7xz+sI1ZygCKFm5h31zzek4xDiKPd0w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:9383:b0:14c:d494:77d1 with SMTP id x3-20020a056a20938300b0014cd49477d1mr8855356pzh.10.1698299770709; Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com. [76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 30-20020a17090a195e00b0027cfd582b51sm950975pjh.3.2023.10.25.22.56.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51a7eaf8-8dd3-4e38-57a5-4a97c5cb6abc@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:56:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US From: Jim Porter References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 10/25/2023 8:48 PM, Jim Porter wrote: > Here's a first attempt. I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it (the > digression into setting 'lexical-binding' to 't' is a bit disruptive), > but hopefully it's an improvement. Of course, we can keep adjusting this > further as needed. On second thought, let's discuss the documentation work in a separate bug so as not to hijack this one: bug#66756. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 06:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: Jim Porter , mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169830196721064 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 06:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 06:32:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60461 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvtvC-0005Tg-Ea for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:32:46 -0400 Received: from sonic317-34.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.45]:41537) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvtv9-0005TK-ML for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:32:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698301927; bh=cOYJe8T/mLkdwvzoWi9LOrFs8/r4k8kzu4Z0vLFAanc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=W4l5OGTJtSyVVxrKQ609qnB6VY2VAJa9EOUtW+AUvyN22TWe3lQrnKiOyb4s/aZgaa5zhdhTHhjsfqPbt7mY2/p7bk1+WR0F8M1uSucDTOtfNsJ+5TWAxNwRDRUdYDE8lH4L3kDUbs9biR12XuCTvJYnQcjAsBCG/nC0EKFTP15ZbvAlw12ipH+zFA89qtdJ0A8EzzoLAX6mM9KzXN8yTOsjk1PJOpMh3Vy7Lx0Qp4G0L5moAnikZ4BsvwU3JKpPkrePfjRwpNl8ZFvXmohjtVbkSam7vSQQGts7Hw8Uu+Fkq+mTcSzS8ylBLsInPsjaWnOuHapRmUSRINThzF/E0g== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698301927; bh=K4DOQyXaADXuO9gM1GXQFqrAQfG2CnNrSEMCrNUv+dK=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=MxZecn1hOvO00Seb30haDbHR97j5lq7E1ZHXosADmu1MeJ9oYQLlQZxsRbKfMcm63fxPMtVyv0kBcARaXeocbi8pZ5CvCxOWmrpgV4nlUDZdFmQT4RKncXWmhLTSunjNHlnjsfTjGXRB3njU5Z1U5AAsvRMN+8IPbR6zNjlOGFNdoD43H7zaF25464xbwkQj0a5iRnbxyrEwRJd/qhTIBGaWl9IhSjm/fGaTG/k+e9Z1bRoxufU7vBoMoiz2HiOBIaL09BHrrDOfJEjCmQuckBX6cqog6vKYQx/Z7J6xZZriHYhFkrzw1ZmSz80t/Zw3pZpCbzWtSOV0d8Vux5mkzA== X-YMail-OSG: JXNyS7UVM1nMxrUQ9lG_e0hQkB7As0YtSCUoNZDUsguH0L23rrJqESJqAhBhpGr AFRiUjfO1XAYpRPgzzkarLrBNdFCpUUDcpZf2TD64XR_pKhEPSsgy85TnxZcUEVB8Y9XCESc3uEv ZV22LovF1Rae72GEomQX7v3WcMkFU_N1XIEyrc38slF4JiRpSdW_wf1SeTSOX93tcLUa4kWcQFCx IMLyHc_F6H2PB4Hu2Q2d_XIKJoVqK6hilV86_jQCFozoAH8PzXBKXDqYeeWpcp1xDbX0PJ5klvit IeDexmp8WF.yA_M4UL0qOQ._qVynpxkM_DAPyoryT1OVhfOsZbsG5PZqNwqn7nyH0WhZceW9Zazh 3UZBgPhctaPaL2QgBpY11Ys6boaVz4nOvPKEbusbtq2FI0GLhB0VeaiiHLK9VkEd6CX4YME4zxYw 5IcgypuOV_Bt1hekClUvfH92il3YWWGbDaRMPlg5EXTD36HVjbWz0BwEpUrvuQh7VQEQ0ekAagdO 97LmpZqMYPmVMGQLIT1McmgdH9XwfiXkqVFbZmy4ISJR4h0mtzdeJTu8z7S1CDaZS8s7YQh7bZLO 18FlCdIsvKYiYv5sVrmdwrSPchAxHxVCeSBFW1kiXoE_tl1l.yzkOVws13ydcQ8v2wT3BIoqAx9D QwwEbGhWdO1wDb6CZOehZiKEZWU_YMbS34bCZVFvj6WVCr65pjGJgRSvgxuFwd.Qd1MREDhfkuNQ qYY2jbnbmCBKZxeGzm2SvwctbKV7u_0qGzPWu2lsScJw_iDfKeEDWx5itoNCCR2lqYIkVICt9KSq cW2YVeE8jIxMVRrq_MUUCmD0kZobLiDMnvMM3d719SNoxD96KJeDThz_JSdvLKMwJ8umgggzIGJM I8EDXgHd8p6JtsBmUFBv2RcDfy6zhhPZJO33LMSWYaMT3zwJiTrr1kX1L8wXYPR34BBUaGSE44B1 1_XaMRbZpzTuWj4XlUpfsMCQd_NZG3h0a42eLONa8BBKUcypsM1GdEgY8hT9Z8lTM6UIhtQFhJdq tJo3SR9WLflA9MTwxmxc9IeSOz6DlR_3QfzvhQJhtVcbyaPw.9M1SXk9EKBY.g91eF_EFqTzbTd. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 2e888f39b20cb00b95f2efe3d9b90532; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 06:32:01 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <831qdihs9c.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:22:55 +0300") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> <831qdihs9c.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:31:53 +0800 Message-ID: <87r0lhzyg6.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 227 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > We already do: on the mode line. Doing more would be an annoyance. What's more, it would be disrespect. And I think that goes far beyond the pale of behavior acceptable from software. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 06:37:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169830218621504 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 06:37:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 06:36:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60472 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvtyk-0005am-6X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:36:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55630) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvtyi-0005aS-IX for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:36:25 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvty7-00036H-48; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:35:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=rhnFOhupRuFEZKEnqNnKMAi7u3D/YuyI2FnCWDMVB4A=; b=ZqRckcSQ1lRp FvHuoetAu1uUFrklxcTn2NQ6c1EMMpfS+5jfxN1PbNgZLjXj4G60byGeihtx/rZdz+bHFfKIthV1g kwCIAbKV6om8zT5hj6kvk+wCZYdRcs1JK1i+v+Zq6QQHn+B2C1cfshK6GnGXG7CF8oT8EAXMkgfj+ cJ/TIl8IMDtRHofd1hWykz5hCzAJoOp2m1/I5aTSZBAy5nZhoWQ/jZzEnnLygIayTVMALeLPWfha5 iH13yykNb2BrZGzbozGqpV7k/PJ4A7x56i7uH3ET1FtOJEXw+jw/+/ty063cavwOuQA3d2VWxfYU1 6WQWWPrGy3uYd3jtDHB5ZQ==; Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:35:42 +0300 Message-Id: <83zg05how1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:31:57 +0200) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: Stefan Kangas , Eli Zaretskii , > mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > monnier@iro.umontreal.ca > Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:31:57 +0200 > > Dmitry Gutov writes: > > > There will be such users, but their number will likely be lower than > > some might expect, simply because the lexical dialect very much > > resembles how programs are written in other languages these days. > > Short version of my reply: Emacs users are a different group than Elisp > package developers. Let's help them by forcing a lexical binding cookie > in the config file instead of simply making their Emacs potentially not > starting up. If this is about init files, we could instead make processing init files assume lexical-binding by default. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Jim Porter Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, luangruo@yahoo.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16983042173268 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 07:10:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60500 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuVU-0000qc-OD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 03:10:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53968) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuVQ-0000qF-Qp for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 03:10:15 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuUp-0001Yw-RZ; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 03:09:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=25MXtX+BsLF2xN+a9n/WODyOybcdLRTehPAgcJ+YM7w=; b=gpwsr9ObKWOr EqaEdqdWdMZ3O0/2W+NDu4r3kqwxAYx/RNku9hke4sE2TeNkVMl/Nu2khnGKynaU6g9+6gnFEjWNx 6/IVTLiZz+t6wy72jy5Aj5USd8zlS4d48kjKFY5ECzTv8DwfZjleVnHgvZyObu6lRgNcr8h6tVKkr w9T4j3QMQnUEf60bi1mQ9Tp54/4+nQAPiQySHoPI6qXPNSfU5B9j1Mwgud7UV8q9di3mE2//D1lph 9LimNtGYMugVgZYrZpDmw1GffHdA6HPwKZ2LWhi6T7+Yc7p0cz+sBjIIDeP999cbxd7J/ahXNF0rA QQKsmTpEE5IzkfBsEGQzow==; Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:09:42 +0300 Message-Id: <83r0lhhnbd.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Jim Porter on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:48:04 -0700) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <438d1186-3759-4462-06d8-b41c69134eda@gutov.dev> <878r7q25zh.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:48:04 -0700 > From: Jim Porter > Cc: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, > Po Lu , Dmitry Gutov , > stefankangas@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii > > On 10/25/2023 6:19 PM, Jim Porter wrote: > > I'll start with a patch here then. I think this is also a prime spot to > > add an example or two that would actually show lexical binding in action > > (i.e. a sample where the code would do something different under dynamic > > binding). > > Here's a first attempt. I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it (the > digression into setting 'lexical-binding' to 't' is a bit disruptive), > but hopefully it's an improvement. Of course, we can keep adjusting this > further as needed. Thanks. The challenge in updating the Lisp Introduction manual is to try to keep its informal and reader-friendly style as much as possible. It is not just another ELisp Reference manual! So please try to keep that in mind when you write the text, and in particular try not to modify the existing text that is still accurate -- it was written by a master, and each word there counts, even if it looks at first sight as not important. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:34:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Jim Porter Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, Eli Zaretskii , stefankangas@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169830920811862 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:34:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 08:33:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60562 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvvo0-00035G-3c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:33:28 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::131]:56812) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvvny-000351-7v for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:33:27 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507c8316abcso681291e87.1 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:32:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698309169; x=1698913969; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=vi01nSVwUzyBTyconWIxgckBI6LWSRNEbgCPxNroMwQ=; b=Me1+fCwGOl9U6L6cbOVJCZMxpLsmZxFiwvR7cd6tS98Q6qZYxTV00g718AaK2rfMS2 bZ3RmiGGusi83Oz6FJZLmdKYd04ZKOGR2ZdDUGg8QhsD/3GEPMwJ3mD8mn0BE2KtD+Rd LPymGgx9qrH9XdwQ0HQPoD1ts3DLpMq6DDd7mM701P0fEEZ8YkeDOEVHVoejpo5vNh9j ITMVZqJ5cZ6Yw2DPGurDCa8qIRZjSG3uAsttXk5ABn1UNIFksgt6myLoEFasSv1w3gJ8 hwyCdVIduZ+vKRB1MXobhOhmEUAEG7y5E+LTkNZnQi6SOeiFMz3YsgJ4cVgoWjNVF/63 IgPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698309169; x=1698913969; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:sender:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=vi01nSVwUzyBTyconWIxgckBI6LWSRNEbgCPxNroMwQ=; b=QX6SKHYZ1aB2Ob3sCYh9ncU/Yk11hD6Q8WT5CjiR/46VbS/raFtFAofSjICCXmGC15 zA651iSHLH0qEv0ywXTkCNFgUhSWHec7vMhmpiqaGbiCeW4lPCbfeTXEZeKIHNH9k4gH 29H+9ZGatOYmcykBgW19eVYgU7/mwukNyh1mCstsGO5IhcpDBSt2yNXspUkvHqJEJFJl iz/BBIUtqnUJR1srhOBTIDsAO7XM4Wa0pwEK2BWb/x9BMT3uciENJQShcumaoR221Vlj CgOeFoRiW55R0qMaKabKF8pKtqIDfxnJbw+vB6dDS9LNZsEZ3FBSuSeb/tboVHQtvHXc grjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzBC/WJafKMqn5+0qD2ThMJc18TIwmLVmuj2AdtKwauM3FmHwWq /UqD5wvtiUEAkNRSpMCpoJ0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFYy5WjMRBjyZG/F7thWURYTD2zUm1jC4e1pDTFTnuoHbw344kmj9gsjpfNEi3zB/EDbQixoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a19:914a:0:b0:507:9b4a:21c0 with SMTP id y10-20020a19914a000000b005079b4a21c0mr11904431lfj.42.1698309168956; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c188-150-165-235.bredband.tele2.se. [188.150.165.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w17-20020ac25991000000b00500cede2786sm2898715lfn.65.2023.10.26.01.32.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 01:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.15\)) From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:32:47 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <206B0014-2E05-4AFB-B538-A3725E5FBBF5@gmail.com> References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.15) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) 26 okt. 2023 kl. 02.07 skrev Jim Porter : > Assuming we don't want to flip the default for 'lexical-binding' just = yet, would it be possible to warn the user any time they load = interpreted code that uses dynamic binding? If you mean .el files without a cookie, then definitely yes. > We could potentially do the same for .elc files that were implicitly = compiled with dynamic binding (i.e. without a "lexical-binding: nil" = cookie), but in my opinion it would suffice to warn users when they = recompile that file. Not sure how you would detect that. Ideally we should try to find a way to recompile code (and emit = warnings) without inconveniencing the user too much. > Or we could just flip the default now. If we had a modest pot of money, we could sponsor young and coming (or = old and going) programmers for converting code using dynamic binding = that is still in regular use. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Dmitry Gutov , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16983184785214 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 11:07:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60663 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvyDW-0001M2-5y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:07:58 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::133]:47275) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvyDU-0001Lp-72 for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:07:57 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5079f6efd64so968714e87.2 for <66706@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:07:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698318439; x=1698923239; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:content-language:references :to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BA9KaLTesAKiOIAGNZyJDGKfoZFFSdHHb8/yItm1jRQ=; b=fgklcqnFA/POdVDts+7PMsPJiOANpx8jjmUEcD51ww83KXyypbDDlX6OuzF3NhPYZ2 G26QSKybe2OHQ7qpQ7sm2fv/aUTmCCrxaMSbwBM7kqGyls1RaO03/RlOURH/oGaNbZHD 6S/xVZ0x9KonSIcZq/uUJEDf26DKEKHlHdSbfUDdVEZeK8aiC9MgpmuKoyrF6HrWflaw BYUL7OKA2HHiwA2Kev9E/zL1Ua4Y67J9xXAl2ENDyHDcFD5j/B9I/yyBIwhWTGyG4jC8 x+WFllC13Qq4XF4HHhYC7bySJdJDSWxM1q7+aA2c940MefuouDAAlaYWkh8dX/gKMcsT /ASw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698318439; x=1698923239; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:content-language:references :to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BA9KaLTesAKiOIAGNZyJDGKfoZFFSdHHb8/yItm1jRQ=; b=iFKwKn8EEFFqpgPSiMUemwGsrqfqLJswOU0jalGF3+AtEZjyLXa6sVEfgJSCBKDWqc VrqcnzIlD+hrQNc62VjxNqC0mhW2cIkPbPIO7Bs3nNa2lxOicrJ52lZJajbY6KqOGGSM 5DjYdb/VLBwhgijj7DxLJ8ObZ8a8q1II2P5lbJupDpML6qInn5avEymr1AB/5s9/WW4B +JuNFp2jB4ekfQd4PHoQdL3S1aK91ISjU/koRpaYix+jNcB3wfK+roeSMNrN1PgIgE1T LepdIqx8B4nm/QW5LmZh147OItqehfVXmn+Jpvd/ReJAyeF/XPIp6jMuBdTAXG/KZ7wh H2+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz99MjtQIwkBRpSO2W9TShnYciwX9zzEaeV/adRinsswV8+OQxs osdx66V+D7UqZA8YkUIv0Ak= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IERTZSY/FzLCtPWmNKIoOjP+CFeeS18HPOl9fZKLhI+s7u1Pd4u5N8yN+iTt1endf3URoOVxA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1396:b0:503:653:5711 with SMTP id fc22-20020a056512139600b0050306535711mr14462951lfb.9.1698318438760; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.199.2] (broadband-90-154-73-8.ip.moscow.rt.ru. [90.154.73.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v10-20020a19740a000000b0050335c6d091sm2932170lfe.79.2023.10.26.04.07.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:07:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev X-Google-Original-From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev Message-ID: <9b416306-7bdc-4b8d-abcb-2debce23d2dd@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:06:52 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <514fda25-c526-34f8-c3eb-8e31bdcf1290@gutov.dev> Content-Language: ru, en-US In-Reply-To: <514fda25-c526-34f8-c3eb-8e31bdcf1290@gutov.dev> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sure, knowing the difference is extremely helpful. But still, I think it's one of the more intermediate topics, which should be hidden from users up until they absolutely have to know about it. The ideal of Emacs has always been about bringing the extensibility even to the non-technical people. Where someone could learn Elisp and use it even without any other technical background. For someone like this, there's already a steep learning curve and a conscious effort must be still be expanded to keep that curve in check, and maybe even smoothen it where possible. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:41:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: 66706@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.169832041918245 (code B ref -1); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:41:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 11:40:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60670 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvyip-0004kC-4X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:40:19 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:57476) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qvyik-0004jp-JH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:40:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvyi8-0006Zk-P5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:39:36 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvyi7-0007f3-9u for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:39:36 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507c8316abcso904546e87.1 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:39:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698320372; x=1698925172; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pN7ct0VZXSdQwVcx9H037UNwS8VwlIIg3vVvKaYOScg=; b=a+4eUgRjmKNj7tY8/mgWjsvPjsy53m5Zz41wfUGdqw+Dz+w2QeFMIB7YZVmqODnggV 9omkObUY5Wpd4PFVYeWJx6A7w4D8kIrVP6/mPePDUGmUs4rqJBUM7W6LmZCnN+TRUN+D 6xcT34WazoWM2SGlZLDJY5LSg1VeKcbb7cdOco65Odnj7fCExaPjzgZeNgngQCZ1TBgd Ax5KGsS3zLhwQWCoWtUmpQ2LHmCqnBWkRxLiy+XTOTH14lC+LlPVTAQ/y8pdNG31S7sC hLL3/AdStc34E8+mV13xd1BgT/HQk5xZWha+k5EWwWT3F08Z/cwEGTzN+3AVYRsPh+GT TlbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698320372; x=1698925172; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pN7ct0VZXSdQwVcx9H037UNwS8VwlIIg3vVvKaYOScg=; b=Wqdf/ShMMQSBNoLR8e78gYS1x+IQaYMyEr3MNUFoFhp9gm499lOv1+6I9xncIWY3+J 7goWEo8xPYov7h7UBjM8GnLj7JclNYL0g2FVTGVdoXrtsk3kBnq938WsQNMYBWvrJYvV SazKAmoAWQVmIwYgWbbbB+rXhfg6bpCp6pajie0ih5Mo78dCJnZHGPsXqn20u64nSjmc gj97KeJm70yGBaJjFqDQBsay2ohnXT6Pbe4ZWzukjcr8+JqiAVOC/tog5lPM44lmprcc WIgNZYvK4cDyYqmE2kw5X/FvnbNLoK9kTUtG6Qdu3IATfICDQl5OEwEMfkZSlJxHv7K/ l3Xg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwMHbb3xE3qJl0q+QDH3QG1JHtJW6tnecvD8r8z19fMHv6AQjLP 2F14SQG4l2meqmXYneKQe3wjbx5X+UirGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEsU/feaQVQVDwCsomxcQJWbJt7mEKnidIdTora0DDuBiqyLz9F9mGePFVxqBVb4LQPM0rOjQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac2:47fc:0:b0:503:3654:37bd with SMTP id b28-20020ac247fc000000b00503365437bdmr12280198lfp.45.1698320372082; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2a02:2168:b3fc:c600:4a4:d7cc:c82d:c1e2? ([2a02:2168:b3fc:c600:4a4:d7cc:c82d:c1e2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e9-20020a05651236c900b004ff973cb14esm2949868lfs.108.2023.10.26.04.39.30 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 04:39:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev X-Google-Original-From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:39:28 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: ru, en-US References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> <206B0014-2E05-4AFB-B538-A3725E5FBBF5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <206B0014-2E05-4AFB-B538-A3725E5FBBF5@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::135; envelope-from=nikolay.kudryavtsev@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x135.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) 26.10.2023 11:32, Mattias Engdegård writes: > If we had a modest pot of money, we could sponsor young and coming (or > old and going) programmers for converting code using dynamic binding > that is still in regular use. Dynamic binding allows you to tweak some behavior when you have to conform to an existing API, even when it has not been properly designed to to support your use case. We just don't know how much 3rd party code uses it in this perfectly valid way and refactoring those mature API to support even some of the use cases like that may not be realistically doable or worth it in the first place. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 13:56:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Po Lu Cc: Jim Porter , Eli Zaretskii , 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169832850532624 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 13:56:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 13:55:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32794 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qw0p0-0008TO-JJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:55:05 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:23478) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qw0oy-0008TA-6t for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:54:49 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id D783480409; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:54:11 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698328451; bh=w4wipwPTd5JISVcGAU7FkESKC6jejRmCN4+9NJFN1HM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=UFxBnoOudo0xAbHi24ECExYg0fs5iC7Y6X1AMx3qnCPRVGGcxoeXGnoEkz4adKLvN jAeCaFwHX/ClYRuRrgl7Vl6q/g7GI/UmMru8So3wNnZ8j7PYLBIwCwv8iVyxHlWLN5 KpIbpDhtQQWCIZNLIuSG5JR8kS2Q+1a0XpJgrgx581Zt2MULZgI7ZQ1oO4irRN+e/z bO0S8fl9x4kgev7msBFeL5LuR2Xctj85XC3iYDtfWVcXBpzdFItwQgzV0bIlSKTsj9 JPoeWpu2CLWihLHTA0C4JuJfyakB7j8DhXjy0MOr/3NdJWLesya064Yyg3+n7WdNPz viFywiuc3Jcxw== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 347548036F; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:54:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.195.71]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E64C812036E; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:54:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <87r0lhzyg6.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:31:53 +0800") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> <831qdihs9c.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0lhzyg6.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:54:10 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.000 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > What's more, it would be disrespect. These kinds of arguments make me realize that we're deep in bikeshed territory. Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: Jim Porter , Eli Zaretskii , mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16983290122371 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:04:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 14:03:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34271 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qw0xQ-0000cB-DG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:03:32 -0400 Received: from sonic310-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.205]:42983) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qw0xN-0000bt-LA for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:03:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698328969; bh=qKObKcVA5iXmCI+eDf4lFxDSAVgFDdeAfoJgUg4MHv4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=bOlEDQFzDUWDgXu+sWvI6is4XGeTu7Io6GcAhhibikqv5dY8H1xTZkK8qQl+lr9hJO8YGbFdtHeURLLJ1LpygSJpBCGGnOSqXf7SZwwOxxZDkwdsb0ZjXQv8WwLab40EYMf0aB/orPq/PvtJHBYOU8LSnBUrLPUs+q53THaF9nEsLH+v9t3cSNSW5s4nMPq0e61T2ja8Ez421MA2jeTieU189IGxT9y9BQDTA08zhAM0uaUxaskaRpcbigJCcY4RU8RhqLTEWBUzWAAUCAdA54WksfOALnUu2vhdL26bslnzOFSvS8J6ypycYBn2EyCQdLd6iFV+enIjvTAr/2EPRw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1698328969; bh=R+JcxSu1JB5SqSQAbkXAUrrjBPXcYZucpuUqAgAUCv+=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=JJ8jPNa+tMikblPV7Qp+/FV/z3bbTGERHSBK+db2n4zPmUZFgWiHPYAzDHU6haXn3Vxyu10H9TKCr/cVH2uqEvQD7mbOq4ts3ab37hAo+7RDA4pUP3bCzffwM77unaQ4RDrfCAlAiEdOyGCz+YddagD+u1Df9wGDgaUl9MxZluc2yfT4GdbAn/zxJiJw6SDR76051lW2PhoedXYjmchxcw+rhTvE2O0Fb6cQthzrZgnLSnzC6V4alt2mHw1twCviQlugIJIe+sq8QInqx45um62MJ1uZh+N38BV54CukSarLQWsg30WDXeMbP4qUJS3NmmOHi8qkW04S3Jukf0hCZA== X-YMail-OSG: E6CHHNUVM1nBca0SybvjkHqoHsWQb9mT0GXZnwFOORu_Dy7.DiyUGJK2VRED_K_ dIRvfEbGTWbQKYJnaXgLRNIy25L1IAdMyv03VJyl53q2wmhkodfYtPRLVYpR8cb5OBi1SWax28_4 Zwcu..WSfprHq88dg7tER5gjFPCYHg1Xab_oRoh2KaSAW39Cdj1LAweLW037RUgoDgNC91HLgDSa 4tpE5je2dPifK2_4Z5gYdRYxw5AGH_G1cf9G_VRJGvUvmzNAYrDvLy5whFUMSQQ9NdsT5Vqslv4m fOHuuxWZxcX3okl0Uw5SmaXIBqKbowJ8oc2nSW61WHX06Nf8_tTC8ky8.TlAXR5SgKFPfJvW7fIx ROzj8wCw33E2ob9ObygRSv_pZURZ7XPG3iXe_zk.CJhKXC.djksmXZdAs0pc2ljqIJ4ZJpObqZGD 7olJNxNT3SqXPE5xEaPhgRRd5s5aQpJ.Pp5zICv2ek0v_RBocj0CttuA5dBVxzpjPOreRsNVbL5O DdK88FuosYN4htY8lavrV01CFLrb7G6Fn.YCODyoW1EOs3VrLX36LBgAmR4WH.MhZW.IFv.dEc8o veMLKoW0JojR3sPhDFfSjBVLpizIbBITDgGOnpAdHFG5NbDA7itnJ4uTyljo9oXmm7QK3qj1s8t3 ty.SncIHJ18uicce1iCl6niGS7CMjwBcEZZhc9N2zrSOAV3WwHPWnGOR4_xTZJ.P9tc9.f3Q8QC8 QTNFxMF2mH_OKSoTe2p_gfwrfySVsM7ybg0M6ckXo6zICuYhcE7f2JCTbwPSI4lREA.GLwH_m7zz LAaqEJT3R2FLnTjPJbsFgcHKCeN72qYBNemiOo44Vm8OEg84WYvdhAuR78eYQ7pyjRahSrlNpzQG tJ9p4QWL9cPb7_gZyxuoiDXjlI0lRz3J7xWU8ncGqYsdtBUce49dUJ_oECda77f_nOcmueNXJAr7 iYwebzmzS79Vn6agBF0mhFPoj3CMFtCJMEecYqJbFOSYIOPX6G3xF1KX9sJAbvJxcQXAtdijJZsp yCxM7b40RT7kb2X6WtIKbRqdUIw4qKzvQpS8XiLc60bKjSqlV4qwaOd.6m1U2gt5JFtGM2KzuYsn eMYR5FVIytPsKOOpXVtZLLODDO1w_zxo6IrxivUQCWuHt3bbmom4PTZG0oTM0T6ZKWCb_jw10eHF N9c0rzVCxRbwIoXxdntrjUnjv6Jw8vLIeX5in6T1iZne3_QTttHAGLyPH_QjrmvA4oEXcyD7Pyrg 1R7wDPq_4SMguYDSFN6p1V3jGFJWKFh_xWdxaeXfY0b5FA.WXjZ8tINN46p7pKmp42nXC_rIs6vg 0UW9MEZlr19EAZq4KtVOZtTvzgeU11pLKbdK_5LQ9MbDPNjQf8_n0jzBMbMqV6WmyerLlzNRoCNz 7DePNjc3dCsRSZHeI77MoEjHQ6sb0FqKGeT7VvtBbvXNk_Ilb1IJIEi0fcMSy3V88dqNSrS6Qmm3 q.WTR1T_TqCjygDbTJYiVtF818gtzIlnDoFmgZWdlyqWbpjvRiBreRwH5A3X6iJYuiJ9XSkBmIi4 IRLbco_dwLacgvsmI3lk2J6kV10kdn6IVTgky8g48FZ5ZIKW5FTLWd3SdELMZW_ddAwZ_AX3tVaB FqKbfqJarSv0vvkdZNk69YNMmFi.P35SKgis1wyLvXYM0IqrgyjFoVQo.viKq1qVOKQ74AgRo3y2 .mGCvs.NXQK60zuaQeSYgW8uKScCisOjSNQWBm8Pv3yuB76Jzv_QOAQbLorgEvr79JvOWF2FZhnp nvU6EcWM2f3358sriOv5k04nnyQUOQ1ldaAqu4fI9_phVIAx22O4oHNdeeTFnoQHXgowE5.HDLcU Q9LRMC3hilMHEMo4.K5EyRj88mbupAhNFRorFldXblekxAg6HLFFpqVMXdKq4XXqX5eQMXT7UlSA 5I33RcPkBhHNJozve.cUJPPSiaU5a876Fj108SGPXrs.WlLwZXwK_fxk7Ym65pb6BILhrCh1aw_X YHQYi6hrYWu7JD8Uyl3rtiER6v1LlISyXQKArKdnyXcB.ltQ_lPQE_z.javzoZBQovqbVtIlEHHf i7jZCsDliZVz8t.l4NZsVtXT5jV.RvkCYIXjXg3SLoIY5f0G5_R5RHGvjrBT2RPJcooFQZVek7Oq iLPh52ekEMwV7wsYulVv5NZ8g3a6nEv.h.gfKsbqOoX50XyvbqmsrUiEz74gYgEHEw0zHxTbdPxD d_yUdU8dHHo3Y8WcA6ajTJt97XJi6SfRB0nIE1I0lSu3XIdgEYxUeOvmjLxhep3ovDiaXnUb8 X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: e0774350-07e9-423d-9654-2212b28e2f94 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:02:49 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-8696d769c6-cdtmc (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e7869b38ed7f6a9ecf13cc5805de295c; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:02:40 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:54:10 -0400") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> <831qdihs9c.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0lhzyg6.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 22:02:35 +0800 Message-ID: <87a5s5zdl0.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21797 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 292 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: > These kinds of arguments make me realize that we're deep in > bikeshed territory. The argument stands wherever we may be, so I'm not willing to compromise in this department. Emacs is not a truncheon its users are to be bludgeoned with. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:37:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Po Lu Cc: Jim Porter , Eli Zaretskii , mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169833457412290 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:37:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 15:36:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34346 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qw2P8-0003CA-5l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:36:14 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:2998) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qw2P2-0003Br-G9 for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:36:12 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id D747F4423F9; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:35:31 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698334531; bh=CVPqt149+QkEpX7FvdOP16y9CXqJ3t8UIqNGxct8h3s=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Hns2IZumTL1qhzqN9348hmkm9MC1zbw4Wy6pkcHQTcanLjSZtqYZTjfew8ZgqJtq2 bgw4dYuVF3sSFWpzzuo2oEmHOvi/2VrvOUJZ8oMVpOCXs/jErqAlMB1F2HNgDTm+T8 AgonR2xSlNeA5zYEXYJcCkEae7B/77VuPVvyolxjxjnftSNacj3soJ4zyfq359tDCw lgkDTsCVfWVEbnffUOkBIU+WivMi6kXpF0jIQ6Rv7W7W7dW7NEaYiFo7uiRSD8QStz uV195Fftr/rWHucYijifQZXLnVH6loUhE7bKZC7TiR6BA0piktlSOynEVxKcV7X/5z VPiXkYr/lWikg== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 0EAFA4423F0; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.195.71]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D545A120443; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:35:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <87a5s5zdl0.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Thu, 26 Oct 2023 22:02:35 +0800") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm131pq6.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7gmkiyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7gmit1z.fsf@gnu.org> <1AADAFCC-F55E-4FD2-BBC1-3564E52AAEC7@gmail.com> <83bkcmim0i.fsf@gnu.org> <98071F94-880A-4617-8733-EC91E2D4E6D4@gmail.com> <1d059dfe-ca63-7277-e46f-ff1f0e764b01@gmail.com> <831qdihs9c.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0lhzyg6.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a5s5zdl0.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:35:30 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.001 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> These kinds of arguments make me realize that we're deep in >> bikeshed territory. > > The argument stands wherever we may be, so I'm not willing to > compromise in this department. Emacs is not a truncheon its users are > to be bludgeoned with. Luckily, "le ridicule ne tue pas" :-) Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:38:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Nikolay Kudryavtsev , "66706@debbugs.gnu.org" <66706@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169833462412389 (code B ref 66706); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:38:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2023 15:37:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34350 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qw2Pv-0003Dl-HO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:37:03 -0400 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:52676) by 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ZGluZyBieQ0KZGVmYXVsdC4NCg0KTG9uZyBhZ28gUk1TIHN1bW1hcml6ZWQgdGhlIHNwZWNpYWwg YWR2YW50YWdlcw0KZHluYW1pYyBiaW5kaW5nIG9mZmVycyBmb3IgYW4gYXBwIHN1Y2ggYXMgRW1h Y3M6DQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmdudS5vcmcvc29mdHdhcmUvZW1hY3MvZW1hY3MtcGFwZXIuaHRt bCNTRUMxNw0KDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5nbnUub3JnL3NvZnR3YXJlL2VtYWNzL2VtYWNzLXBhcGVy Lmh0bWwjU0VDMTgNCg== From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:15:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169837649417677 (code B ref 66706); Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:15:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2023 03:14:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34798 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwDJG-0004b2-6j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 23:14:54 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:39471) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwDJB-0004aj-5w for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 23:14:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1698376444; x=1698981244; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=iM51mAdEJtkcihR4xxC/QrftbdDmzY+G/uX2+7YsyXc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Date; b=cNh6tYqDHHF6bRtcIFANRbw+/P59dRjyB5iS/0sYKe77eO0umbtmKAySlsTRdsvT C7YVANjPlBNm9PjtOS/787MEWpN5B4mDLrBEgIQ+JRnKPHLxiB6MsA+pygmjTjEOd q5VDslQ7IwxDLqn8YRTWS7QAp4IW4k4VQyhMKvdXknoEmgXX1AmD5aH3KUk5xbIOS nSpFHhdwCGrlK2V9vE0pWe9WTcK2Ocp6mZD/4y3/uRz+R2SaDniW/zk1/IVpa0cg9 5sYgItb51P39xgTf6XpyVkKpGRPgTdUPKtN8U7HemPMR5PLjz7hD3osdRvi6Jaffu Egh12j+cs3eAPhYjaA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.159]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mav2X-1rSVuR0rVr-00cFDw; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 05:14:04 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <83zg05how1.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:35:42 +0300") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> <83zg05how1.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 05:14:11 +0200 Message-ID: <87pm10sqnw.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7SN4y22sL3UVzAnNSnq12Vrjamz0nUGFC49F6LOq2kaRzruMueX Fh53GLwzBBK2uKqnOaLWGxJT2Oilg3SAJY0lYhrjpTyXZdTwRYILI0SBpdp20kymPo63KQB W+lU59MOOt+VNW5uUzDOkLme13Ci6jxlDTGrADznhYsDYkjb9KEmPMFg3o5g6Zl6ANA67qG eJBHbjFAF4oCgb5Ja6euA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+QUfn1FvCxc=;0jmbjeBYGX396B5erjyVc7BZSGT +wP6f6agz2NtXjZXIcJKAMCBWojzMSIwMaLARsEjO+xxVJm/MtI9gIi6Te9Zm0QsCrOMgobJl MuDQtNqJ6EHZ4BvUGfkSWNR7FB9KFTLtZ2vD8NueL7xKH6gmBBj1a8FdMedqXzHIo7onhO0M1 QgTBcFHdeb3IJejEzLoKOhAqeaEu5zDIq04HZ7zB6PWla4oxNi9DtPlCzKYj1aaj9dWU06tlW 3GZ85VZ0hF2zFuF+xyTFjrMsr2BCVm/U7ZDdS4JbdWRpzll7v7nwI1uL1CLxE+aTp1B3zYlxy oPwiJYCmZG9mLkhrb2wlHnDfGE10gSKItd4TqA1SvSg0yF8QYD9IIRd1rEKtRAtr4txhFJzE6 ddr+fV0P/3gF6YSQYFLL6EfBwihtwiRs8kLVYzqYccf22Hy6N0ySub/PlXXoDu8nWe+ja8hdM jHta/XLIq1i9rLN2kWLs6gApDWFdThte8BuasSTsgbdnBYX+FE63O6bYmMwNlM2qUGEyDKSE6 y85A9IrWmevNiNU8qm4v3l4NVawLZYVzCFfO63JxzWPjD47PwxY+updoP46XzaM1QhDDi+/yn uUPHlSwA2SM8MOLo8VcnezOWtUJCTjxXVqxgasIIL72iFcIWNM2+AUdAP3rR8VJeYIDa+J7/E XM5cyuotcD/zjCGYwdYDTpt56CIzgsVju5qeiSNDKitX9WY0/yURM4DCo1NshSj6TaabsaaBE 1qhtBrUkpP3BV2Kl92/iF9US6LFKezb1aM3zGhSyfewhjJN+i/hzzVqoYYp5jN7/W6//6wWYy M3GJmZ/dfOa0UgTOIETtEoHChXC1rHNKEpKpjzkWKLqSNqcAD4TM9bnDM5eed4ITPPvn6WxBz R+Mh+9nRzqXi3yz3YznVuAQpVePyrAB4nbY7eCLl3aRcOROWqzYJpFQop+KoxJajkzQ/nnhH/ WLCM4w== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > Short version of my reply: Emacs users are a different group than Elisp > > package developers. Let's help them by forcing a lexical binding cookie > > in the config file instead of simply making their Emacs potentially not > > starting up. > > If this is about init files, we could instead make processing init > files assume lexical-binding by default. That's exactly what we should avoid because it can make Emacs not start up for init files that require the current default of dynamical binding. We also should not assume dynamical binding: lexical binding is the default. Emacs should not guess: it should ask the user and then add a cookie. That's my point. Michael. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 06:27:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169838799815302 (code B ref 66706); Fri, 27 Oct 2023 06:27:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2023 06:26:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34951 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwGIo-0003yi-Bl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 02:26:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43670) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwGIj-0003yQ-Rp for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 02:26:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwGI7-0006wG-TL; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 02:25:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=rzFeBoRLlWJklIoVbPOvpT35BSUxfaUCTLz+tRWjWCM=; b=JxQCB0g8WNHR pT/cN/vl+0m7uQkom1fEW/zyNkGVdMT5+4gIvPDuktIxXWVWyNAlgzr9awi2Tk4edGhsZTtFre5ks LAYAo3OOKs4k3Q1hwzmG7sSJNkQEFEyj0Gfo3Lu4RGi9vKPxzH62LiFIe2H8wacuq9WAWjbL0n2I9 BaujZlbYdV4Fz1Rmi+jI9jQZg0xT8MKpB68zDJnBjMOEhsfX9D1rWshDQCmK9bD9Oj7L/ZKQcXZKp 8cc1OuOreCWRFzfVa3Zyr6eqQ00Qxj5kJ/sB177NKcHimirwRpgu7s7zRssugISI4lSBb5uZvcKC2 Fj3M8dl4mCsmXSnalHW4vA==; Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:26:06 +0300 Message-Id: <8334xwfuo1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <87pm10sqnw.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Fri, 27 Oct 2023 05:14:11 +0200) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> <83zg05how1.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm10sqnw.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca > Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 05:14:11 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > Short version of my reply: Emacs users are a different group than Elisp > > > package developers. Let's help them by forcing a lexical binding cookie > > > in the config file instead of simply making their Emacs potentially not > > > starting up. > > > > If this is about init files, we could instead make processing init > > files assume lexical-binding by default. > > That's exactly what we should avoid because it can make Emacs not start > up for init files that require the current default of dynamical binding. How many of init files do indeed require dynamic binding? And why? If a new Emacs version refuses to start because something in the init files goes against some new Emacs feature, we have --debug-init and other facilities to debug and fix those. Why should lexical-binding be considered different from any other backward-incompatible change that we sometimes do? In any case, how will injecting the cookie help those users, exactly? If people who write init files don't understand the implications of lexical-binding, their Emacs will fail to start, something that you think is a catastrophe. And if they do understand it, their init files are already compatible with lexical-binding. > We also should not assume dynamical binding: lexical binding is the > default. Emacs should not guess: it should ask the user and then add a > cookie. That's my point. Your point seems to be incompatible with our plan, which is to turn on lexical-binding by default at some point. We don't want to have a schism of two separate flavors of Lisp, we want only one. The current situation is a transitional period, not the ideal. You seem to be suggesting that we should keep this situation forever, and that is not what we decided, AFAIU. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169839150221602 (code B ref 66706); Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:26:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2023 07:25:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34998 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwHDK-0005cL-D4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:25:02 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:43457) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwHDF-0005bh-Bj for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:25:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1698391451; x=1698996251; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=Of4vabf3+RawrT2Qwsyf+7XVHuR6TVyqV1qevTtSLBc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Date; b=dbuDJiHNifuANv6E/DAuD9Exaza2/tVojNgkDrN3Ho2Y+JaSz8hs8/cNfTCr15xX aZ1sGI1HdjCdr4QoOu0BolUP5zopuwPzkBEJxvU6BHVk0nNYRd4ls1SMeCz7hPTgU +QgoUyrfwo39AJaY4M+xoqSRvZBQPgY7toX24OhB3/Ay8wQgc8FOl6WiCWqURPqBc aS/pzb2/OOIS3n5po7qjoDVYLnx/JUnDZkBr8G7uaKTYJO09p6QtXe+pEIrVAug8D s716yVk46NukhE4t7c9XxB0d83/Atb4CKWwu4QNIoyZnJWMufEg4UHllkfB+lfD94 x2WKxXdS+/mk6Nwa4g== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.159]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MjxeE-1rKaP531iK-00kj1Y; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:24:11 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <8334xwfuo1.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:26:06 +0300") References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> <83zg05how1.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm10sqnw.fsf@web.de> <8334xwfuo1.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:24:19 +0200 Message-ID: <87fs1wil3w.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:q43qW+Ps4mA9lN1Xc6tmOgHR8Mcne4/SpVeO2rOHh6ZKA0gl3JG cFph4z2+dp2FtIpjFWr2WD2E+BcgriCeVl4YhtAcx58GD+cU4H47zRZX2DQXtn4u6ydTJUd 8sYBWynKYU1aTCR7E/EYN8+VV8vvc5Ofd5N+9ymBvmlNyHrRcHSAtS05GfNFWZa3cLEwYIO fz6Yev4WQt0r5saJXijlw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:HTrVZacZ7f0=;VfGfpQsnrDbI5K+iYoHAeICee3T 0CNRKA1aovT01MUN1GmPb2U4GSk7ctZkNryKlZgjhBa//kkhYiIwrGp35RD2uTCk6YcwViMeG Lym0b2rSn7MIqpXQbOXmrsNYnoAGDvD9M+r2AuNdP+4LUgTB66DkDcjPWYUVO1GlYx+qsXdZH zpBbRAKChted/xZ5EWlJWadJ7FSH1miQpLC5sABAbni/DeUsuCgoL82rH3FYJ89RGJTTavTid 6x/b37qnHqAHQ5yMpXRkkZ/fZk2HidosNb2dA/dYB7QL7QmbZNHlpSssbDCU7smUVcgXUBl5k E4iu1yOei2S/Nk1XA6Wbhok+g4FcrsrByNljN2smrnDQNZja5W3AVrscb2KzZBJkmBDBtfbho 9WouSfmzRjuX2qtyNM5laXde8eZ8DKGbgA2h3Wrt7njxYpuWKmAjCDzCACDM0SLOgYtcx6I/w rHh2qG11xfYNQlOIhk9HV6tXagziMDhS2nbdiRID0lczxdUrpvur7Aa3K4YfsJ5xCj3cA8byG XscOTxE88BsKfbDBVrrHCX+lEwlTYVBI5nDZxHhSaAJ6/Mk8ttm+2bYMqkClfTk/P/3/4x7gK 9YCffcGZ1kNnApUsV0iWncmPCWUkAssAuoaun323DNzb3sGA8xKlpgbk+KJ16ZDx+rRWTxPuW Eed2HbqTnBQixdqNdaWiVePdAlwnJRKD7/wgwJsxUsqsFaVkHVqVELM2hjhS4UmH78uA/Lsc7 gvyHJBVJIgAcNhq++4LSMIYjC7rYDq+UjU7Q0mm8Sd+dY5h+SVbIzdCyUeblBey40ur909clZ YGJ4iihd07L1mwDBhxWea5yUET03NxxDkmaW2TSu+tboIKgZSYz1roQf+HsYRgG2XRYYZjPs6 MbbY3JVPfMAJBq2Ga3wrw7G3Yzu/oC2KDoytGlj8eCZa0XuUwUE0ZWGIkJ/+3QOrtdu7nWlMU enfxnplz9ya9TsnvLMT0WRubgDI= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > How many of init files do indeed require dynamic binding? And why? It was the default, and when I read what others mention ("look at the code is posted here and there"), I guess there are a lot. And exactly those users will have problems with the upgrade. If you look at the code that is posted in emacs-help, you see that some people use a coding style that heavily depends on dynamical binding. > > If a new Emacs version refuses to start because something in the init > files goes against some new Emacs feature, we have --debug-init and > other facilities to debug and fix those. I don't think that a debugger is that helpful for rewriting that stuff. > Why should lexical-binding be considered different from any other > backward-incompatible change that we sometimes do? As I said: it's unnecessary to break Emacs startup when we can just be nice and use the other dialect. We can still force users to rewrite their init file in nicer ways. > In any case, how will injecting the cookie help those users, exactly? > If people who write init files don't understand the implications of > lexical-binding, their Emacs will fail to start, something that you > think is a catastrophe. And if they do understand it, their init > files are already compatible with lexical-binding. If Emacs starts and it doesn't find a lexical-binding cookie in the init file, it might be written in the dynamically binding dialect. I suggest that Emacs then prompts the user: hey, your init file lacks that cookie, if you upgraded your Emacs recently, it is likely that I should interpret it as dynamically binding, although lexical-binding is the new default. If you just installed Emacs, you should use "lexical-binding". Use lexical binding for now (y-or-n)? And then you would be instructed to add a cookie for the init file. With a hint where to look up the relevant information about the two dialects. > Your point seems to be incompatible with our plan, which is to turn on > lexical-binding by default at some point. We don't want to have a > schism of two separate flavors of Lisp, we want only one. The current > situation is a transitional period, not the ideal. You seem to be > suggesting that we should keep this situation forever, and that is not > what we decided, AFAIU. No, I don't think you fully understand. I only want to help the users with the transition. Nice programs do that, they help you a bit with necessary changes to your config after major changes. I suggest this treatment only for the init file. And also only for a transitional period (I already said that though...). Michael. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:34:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169839199522531 (code B ref 66706); Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:34:01 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2023 07:33:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35010 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwHLG-0005rJ-T7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:33:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46004) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwHLF-0005r6-9T for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:33:13 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwHKd-00077w-De; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:32:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=b5qQEKdRmjUAtsVkpBNrz3kQuG8Ptg0TubnvDDpzEIo=; b=FaT9c33NoSNr Kwhctn80jCXZFN18wMdQYrc+TE8zgDTZLKOSjFLIhPexNVS6G1Bq+lHrKfbRa/eAejsVoM79yn3fb JnGqFtroHfeiwQufZpLXtoetH0PuVAlcR+l3EHfBMrSx1FGIczqGYa9g4ILQUcnWgXyVUCDTwCqXU W7+14L13S3j7wdp93MrcUMsKEuZCOZK0pO19jdLIBfT81zOu2LcCVKf5tcaHUoiGEm6td2c9WkXX0 b2F0+J3swuQ2+RZ4RCDfU4JBnIryDtpxxMVgipDrW69mq6A5daJHPuT4dw0wHfwjh26jt53gytMfl kL3KQ2PjmCu2U+z/WCO20Q==; Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:32:47 +0300 Message-Id: <83y1foed0g.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <87fs1wil3w.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:24:19 +0200) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> <83zg05how1.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm10sqnw.fsf@web.de> <8334xwfuo1.fsf@gnu.org> <87fs1wil3w.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca > Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:24:19 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Your point seems to be incompatible with our plan, which is to turn on > > lexical-binding by default at some point. We don't want to have a > > schism of two separate flavors of Lisp, we want only one. The current > > situation is a transitional period, not the ideal. You seem to be > > suggesting that we should keep this situation forever, and that is not > > what we decided, AFAIU. > > No, I don't think you fully understand. I only want to help the users > with the transition. I don't think it will help. I guess we disagree about that. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 14:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: Michael Heerdegen , dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.169841774324685 (code B ref 66706); Fri, 27 Oct 2023 14:43:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2023 14:42:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36830 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwO2Z-0006Q4-Gg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:42:23 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:33467) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwO2X-0006Pr-Lu for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:42:22 -0400 Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 9559A10006B; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:41:44 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1698417703; bh=q3nD9upvSOjRAjj1NBqwlf6h5vQijKJmkOo5uAAVQdQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=RuBKGflWQlcVRm4GMGYVe9sj+SZ2aMm5AiQ4wTc5BW6+Kfp780FfLxjQXKDBbiOTY 2FlC+vF/2NW+RYtzBGEHkGP8szvV4Ikxflk0a1oWJ2paWBi0ktCP3AXyY3zm1Kj6fe 2fbaJMg0YBiyjOf4i0Ao2lWX19Zwx91Go31YGTyhCCSOPa3sXqA/eyHtL7yever+/R jwiaf1qb2hqboLkEHLTC2/BIRHqly6FsrRP6gVKw8dYTk1mtJD3yOumnPPHlxHxaAI mBMewuT6Xo2r9ALnwrKTckI9KcfeX9fk2QH/y8iD702zKJWOBuJZZCdbAkheCJ6I5v A8ieMRl/1Q8ZA== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id E0C9810013E; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alfajor (unknown [23.233.149.155]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ADEFE1202E5; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:41:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: <8334xwfuo1.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:26:06 +0300") Message-ID: References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> <83zg05how1.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm10sqnw.fsf@web.de> <8334xwfuo1.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:41:42 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.161 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Your point seems to be incompatible with our plan, which is to turn on > lexical-binding by default at some point. What's missing before we can do that, in your opinion? Stefan From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:15:25 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#66706: [PATCH] Automatic elisp dialect insertion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:27:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 66706 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Stefan Monnier Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, dmitry@gutov.dev, mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 66706-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B66706.16985824203894 (code B ref 66706); Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:27:02 +0000 Received: (at 66706) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2023 12:27:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40670 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qx4sd-00010k-VC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 08:27:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34294) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qx4sc-00010Y-EI for 66706@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 08:26:59 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qx4s0-0008NC-Ih; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 08:26:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=D3sUMvNQG5KOcAaEyU93A8lO6rMsdlalLuGWAgHVzCA=; b=WX8cPL6Fd+c8 kQPLb5/MGYHYDelOZE6+IoA30NI3XDKvivLmSjhZcsmzRBBTHD8yr7n9RElahYRwHjju3s8tuJGeg UleVEXbTN+vcLWhxb/7KEpWbOy75mJVE7In/Uu4ObIy9Ay7tLJ8QKQMGjLtnnadvSoBF/6PIxvWeB D00WXEwJEEsNfzTXx2FyKJN85E7BkbKJRj9C+AWfi0NCV1hHVwLIagkhjHb/XRiQ0jvbLuJXEMC46 GJPqpvCs90C+qJUjtf9L1/h8+u3qyWqL6cuDBLKdNn2jpUJwNnrfJOQ+TwMbvECBT+xA6z5qN5JYt w4xSmmab06l9X0/2dZviKg==; Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:26:04 +0200 Message-Id: <83cywxboo3.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Monnier on Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:41:42 -0400) References: <17C83052-7946-45DE-B660-DA7EB82001B0@gmail.com> <83sf61mb54.fsf@gnu.org> <98CD592C-0E82-4795-8168-2B5E597FF7A7@gmail.com> <8334xzlvy9.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8avjuv8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edhicjgi.fsf@web.de> <83zg05how1.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm10sqnw.fsf@web.de> <8334xwfuo1.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: Michael Heerdegen , dmitry@gutov.dev, > mattias.engdegard@gmail.com, 66706@debbugs.gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 10:41:42 -0400 > > > Your point seems to be incompatible with our plan, which is to turn on > > lexical-binding by default at some point. > > What's missing before we can do that, in your opinion? Our decision?