From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:11:24 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#66306 <66306@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#66306 <66306@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Too many services depend on =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99?= Reply-To: bug#66306 <66306@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 19:11:24 +0000 retitle 66306 Too many services depend on =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99 reassign 66306 guix submitter 66306 Ludovic Court=C3=A8s severity 66306 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 02 08:25:32 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2023 12:25:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36197 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qnHzP-0006cn-TI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:25:32 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:53064) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qnHzN-0006cS-0H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:25:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qnHyo-00042z-DN for bug-guix@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:24:56 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qnHyn-0008Pl-Hq for bug-guix@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2023 08:24:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:Subject:To:From:in-reply-to: references; bh=ILkxzkhAEn7TLurVN+86Zb1fwdevSTG5x3DPt7cmFAc=; b=D0WQDqwLuUmZC5 F4i+mP2h73MNn1Nv553rE38rRfYux5r03OHWo2FmD3T0F5WRwSPeooilphU3sOW1Wgn7Es21hUAbw Wt2rQ24/FJ20etxXosZsIJxUu9EW6S0bA5qupAK2iepa5Ki86Sp6pgYxgiOfJvFowLqrtfHbonxl0 rp2WyQ6XFKLcLsX4b37aYQgvM8k5CYQVrdbn2UcuA7w2jr1kF3EFaX04blI0wIeUVrT8w78mrnpxt xZobpqFvjsAWI976cJP3GBI3Ga2MC67p5LeqP53FmQKnoyAQbj/gxlLYhgrM0KHm+FHR4Gbjf2asz yJVMVFBKmxgXYdFcA55Q==; From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: bug-guix@gnu.org Subject: Too many services depend on =?utf-8?B?4oCYbmV0d29ya2luZ+KAmQ==?= X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: Primidi 11 =?utf-8?Q?Vend=C3=A9miaire?= an 232 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution=2C?= jour de la Pomme de terre X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2023 14:24:49 +0200 Message-ID: <87cyxxjjou.fsf@inria.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) I believe too many services depend on =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99 for no g= ood reason. There=E2=80=99s a good discussion of the problem at: https://systemd.io/NETWORK_ONLINE/ For example, bitlbee, ntpd, hurd-vm, and avahi-daemon all depend on =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99. Is it always justified? For example, avahi-daemon unconditionally listens on 0.0.0.0 and [::], so there=E2=80=99s no need to depend on =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99. --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- $ sudo netstat -tupla |grep avahi udp 0 0 0.0.0.0:mdns 0.0.0.0:* = 650/avahi-daemon: r=20 udp6 0 0 [::]:mdns [::]:* = 650/avahi-daemon: r=20 --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- In other cases, such as bitlbee, it=E2=80=99s not as obvious because users = can specify different addresses to listen to, and those might depend on =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99 to set up the corresponding interfaces. Thoughts? Should we do an audit of these? Ludo=E2=80=99. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 05 03:13:07 2023 Received: (at 66306) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Oct 2023 07:13:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45873 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qoIXj-0004m7-BR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 03:13:07 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::430]:57437) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qoIXh-0004lZ-KD for 66306@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 03:13:06 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-323168869daso660371f8f.2 for <66306@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 00:12:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1696489962; x=1697094762; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references :mail-followup-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:sender:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=u0hK305qaLV6ilDWQSHMaRGVulHA0QYDwR2JA347IIo=; b=I+WkaZuk6j7ztQwXtd/JQi9taRK5D/FzyyyLyAON5k0gYsljdmQqbD15750G4K7OJ/ QKV3JuIbfSp0vEksWnZnBcXy5hxjHJwcw6wbXkePXGs+AvjFpHQiqi7zWUwiBbbnJrSK SrVDdBuxojOV2HrxZsNr7FGSzNORqR1dcsFZI8vfoG9ZvacHLUyBrv/+kjxisCCRf05S 8YUBe4b3klScPrmN+BUOhbN8uE31/BTOwdLeq83F5FB6+X6JZPXRT4xVhlmi/ltqDkKD RdTuzGI9Nbx/0j3AwgSIQU8Cj96Ig2dlo3BBhpi1qBi2Wua2C8AhaLvJx7QvnLTAnJ2t RyDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1696489962; x=1697094762; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references :mail-followup-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:sender :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=u0hK305qaLV6ilDWQSHMaRGVulHA0QYDwR2JA347IIo=; b=pEAaFV4yH/Abs1QEsDqTjDXMBpWxZJzthYlo/JKdkzsIYQnA8WwYBgyaFzCwDBX3yi VQDgsEoHto6++P8Ewj9k/B/iVWgkIFVfcqVf46xtGiBpxxNVO4Dg4dOvO/6iR6MGILAP xFl0AQeZWILK9epddRAnSiLidAx5p5Lyjb8LCtR3s+eePwiZJL1OCfuTLYVIcG/U10j+ b6FSCTaToAeAIOZrenkGv7JOYeU4+p4g498kc2y2PgSgvSRGYCAVRYVQCz5dnru5kXYr 9hdjEBoV6JpnT/hKnh7HH6ts34pDIpa5EB867j1WEyb7/hjI1pqZ3ibq+ySn96yrjxWL NfEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwB7K1DTSCHMGzcLiUE+TwRspHrSzM4rFEZuvVTT3Xw3CnW0M3c p9jI8Tuy/KOy8QsOVLS6Tfg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF4RFBiYJK1Gatoo1rYh2daZTcF06D0XN8ni+bRl/Ec5SeHLTimNrik+gKzwKiCDim9YC4GIQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1a50:b0:314:1b4d:bb27 with SMTP id t16-20020a0560001a5000b003141b4dbb27mr3862350wry.64.1696489961513; Thu, 05 Oct 2023 00:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2a02:ed3:916:6300:c3db:b80e:a694:a54f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v13-20020adff68d000000b003258934a4bcsm1036241wrp.42.2023.10.05.00.12.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 05 Oct 2023 00:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 10:12:39 +0300 From: Efraim Flashner To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: bug#66306: Too many =?utf-8?Q?services?= =?utf-8?B?IGRlcGVuZCBvbiDigJhuZXR3b3JraW5n4oCZ?= Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Efraim Flashner , Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , 66306@debbugs.gnu.org References: <87cyxxjjou.fsf@inria.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Z4Qg8MbwB6+nHkOP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87cyxxjjou.fsf@inria.fr> X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x41AAE7DCCA3D8351 X-PGP-Key: https://flashner.co.il/~efraim/efraim_flashner.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D 14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66306 Cc: 66306@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --Z4Qg8MbwB6+nHkOP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 02, 2023 at 02:24:49PM +0200, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > I believe too many services depend on =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99 for no= good reason. > There=E2=80=99s a good discussion of the problem at: >=20 > https://systemd.io/NETWORK_ONLINE/ This exactly! How much 'network' counts as 'good enough' to start the next services? > For example, bitlbee, ntpd, hurd-vm, and avahi-daemon all depend on > =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99. >=20 > Is it always justified? For example, avahi-daemon unconditionally > listens on 0.0.0.0 and [::], so there=E2=80=99s no need to depend on > =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99. >=20 > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > $ sudo netstat -tupla |grep avahi > udp 0 0 0.0.0.0:mdns 0.0.0.0:* = 650/avahi-daemon: r=20 > udp6 0 0 [::]:mdns [::]:* = 650/avahi-daemon: r=20 > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- >=20 > In other cases, such as bitlbee, it=E2=80=99s not as obvious because user= s can > specify different addresses to listen to, and those might depend on > =E2=80=98networking=E2=80=99 to set up the corresponding interfaces. >=20 > Thoughts? Should we do an audit of these? Probably should do an audit. For bitlbee, I guess the question is how does it respond to changes in networking? If it comes up when only loopback is up will it need to be restarted once an actual network shows up? For ntpd, I've had trouble with openntpd coming up while only loopback was active and then I'd have to restart it for it to get the initial big jump when starting. --=20 Efraim Flashner =D7=A8=D7=A0=D7=A9=D7=9C=D7=A4 = =D7=9D=D7=99=D7=A8=D7=A4=D7=90 GPG key =3D A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D 14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351 Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted --Z4Qg8MbwB6+nHkOP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEoov0DD5VE3JmLRT3Qarn3Mo9g1EFAmUeYeQACgkQQarn3Mo9 g1HYtA/+Lz0JDe8QYSmujf2y+m0lioue+czXOlm1Xt4mTIwD1eAI4JxzB6SkUOKr 1tiCBv48mYEev+0BXUoGnT2letDA44FGKjqSFDGWgYhoKSG0rgmZarD/zx3rExbH +Es++Fh0wgPV147oJHH9bGu3uqMN6zwTJu/5YuDoXU5TQwVLyimGP1YTLUsh93KW CRqW40U5bo8fezMT7jl47PmQlCSrip9UWH6si5Xblsra6Bl1s2917z6pTlbPRXIV eLNVsh7fAfKoGHNSbjI9yzkA4BAyVHgyUJQx1hJplmdCw/tN2P8kc2DUGllObZ4b IP/5K4cDE4uPT9ayfNZkNZlOozDIEnXbPE4lXtQO8GB3QqLUqKsnq59xLvldl6w4 +zr+nJdSAK2JDzqmgE8/KmufCX04UGozd4+FGPZWD7ZWvqQhJpLfV8H+HuiOlfmb j5uFziNjXYKvAv2lxsc7PqqNfECkvGuIuQ61xvHUqKGT8XjcoOOaR1JyCvQUbgNO snIiv87XSkKfvQgLQ49ojsD0jpz0vtCqJu0D1ptyBboDxTgXsfbauGeDDTfvScAw cjg8qe3sZzxDLUliYlB61UjtXlNkg0Gd8nQzFvjJpNmHoJSIZ/z/BqbmKvcC+ilf be/YYXmrq5PgXxDsF9gdnAbeE/8Yl19KpamAp//TZDZTETX0iv0= =QpE3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Z4Qg8MbwB6+nHkOP--