From unknown Fri Sep 05 16:18:15 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#6616 <6616@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#6616 <6616@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Reply-To: bug#6616 <6616@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2025 23:18:15 +0000 retitle 6616 S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer reassign 6616 emacs submitter 6616 Paul Griepentrog severity 6616 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 12 02:30:27 2010 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2010 06:30:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYCX4-0004qR-JR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:30:27 -0400 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYCNQ-0004lp-PY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:20:30 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:56696) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1OYCNS-0007cM-Pw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:20:30 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=44445 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYCNQ-000413-Fw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:20:30 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, T_DKIM_INVALID, T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYCNO-00068d-Lr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:20:28 -0400 Received: from out3.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]:39579) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYCNO-00068M-Hh for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:20:26 -0400 Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C8416DA0F for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:20:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=smtpout; bh=e2YOmj9mXz3o06sTigcSLagUEm0=; b=tJRbcIR/tNBoPBmoZhgLZIVRY35LPk59XFMx0sE++ZUioZX5BRlLVkA2UVMmxslGSdLnVdMlkO6+IbdKz7VwLqzLeRWb1iIXOvDIGeaXZSEVsEvZfS9ZIRNO81npN4v1+r/KiKsW+vmDxjqx3xvSLVY2phJdW1lfJtbAD0Jiewk= X-Sasl-enc: HlAv/4+aRQ/czDk3b8w0zHRmTUqT9F64OCEv8v5dEQaq 1278915624 Received: from walnut.local (c-76-102-20-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.102.20.45]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A6954DBBB5 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 23:20:22 -0700 From: Paul Griepentrog User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.4) Gecko/20100608 Thunderbird/3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:30:25 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.2 (-----) The manual, (info "(emacs) Help Mode"), says "S-TAB" moves the point to the previous cross reference when in the *Help* buffer. But, trying from a default emacs shows "S-TAB" is translated to "C-y": emacs -Q ... ; Get to a *Help* buffer C-h k S-TAB C-y (translated from ) runs the command yank, which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `simple.el'. My guess is that the right place to change this is in the `button-buffer-map'. This way the change will propagate to other modes that use button-buffer-map as a parent keymap, including: apropos.el ; apropos-mode-map emacs-lisp/debug.el ; debugger-mode-map help-mode.el ; help-mode-map (this bug) man.el ; Man-mode-map progmodes/etags.el ; select-tags-table-mode-map startup.el ; splash-screen-keymap diff --git a/lisp/button.el b/lisp/button.el index 2a9a49c..ad4613d 100644 --- a/lisp/button.el +++ b/lisp/button.el @@ -73,6 +73,7 @@ (define-key map [?\t] 'forward-button) (define-key map "\e\t" 'backward-button) (define-key map [backtab] 'backward-button) + (define-key map [S-tab] 'backward-button) map) "Keymap useful for buffers containing buttons. Mode-specific keymaps may want to use this as their parent keymap.") In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.3 (i686-apple-darwin10.6.4, NS apple-appkit-1038.32) of 2010-07-10 on walnut.local Windowing system distributor `Apple', version 10.3.1038 configured using `configure '--build' 'i686-apple-darwin10.6.4' '--without-dbus' '--with-ns' 'build_alias=i686-apple-darwin10.6.4' 'CC=gcc -I/usr/include -L/usr/lib' 'CFLAGS=-pipe -arch i386 -gdwarf-2 -g3' 'LDFLAGS=-arch i386'' Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: nil value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: nil default enable-multibyte-characters: t Major mode: Text Minor modes in effect: autopair-mode: t autopair-global-mode: t yas/global-mode: t otherwindow-marker-mode: t window-number-meta-mode: t shell-dirtrack-mode: t recentf-mode: t ido-everywhere: t show-paren-mode: t tooltip-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t column-number-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Recent input: C-c C-g s e t SPC c u o r a n g e C-c 0 C-x C-f p t a b C-s C-c C-g b u g SPC SPC SPC f i l e SPC b b u C-g C-c C-g b u g r e p o r SPC b Recent messages: Loading ~/.emacs.d/paul/pg-config... Ido mode enabled Loading /Users/pgriepen/.emacs.d/recentf.dat...done Cleaning up the recentf list...done (0 removed) Loading ~/.emacs.d/paul/pg-config...done For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a. Loading vc-git...done Making completion list... 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help-mode view vc-git paredit server package remember org-install org byte-opt warnings bytecomp byte-compile org-footnote org-src org-list org-faces org-compat org-entities org-macs time-date noutline outline cal-menu calendar cal-loaddefs xcscope xgtags autopair yasnippet-config yasnippet dropdown-list derived easy-mmode edmacro kmacro assoc ibuf-ext ibuffer wn-org nav nav-tags python-21 python imenu nav-bufs dired-details dired+ dired-x ediff-merg ediff-diff ediff-wind ediff-mult ediff-help ediff-init ediff-util dired-aux dired otherwindow-marker window-number saveplace tramp-gw tramp-fish tramp-smb tramp-cache tramp-ftp tramp-cmds tramp auth-source gnus-util shell comint password-cache format-spec tramp-compat trampver recentf tree-widget wid-edit browse-kill-ring ido bbdb-autoloads bbdb regexp-opt timezone otp winner ring avoid paren uniquify advice help-fns advice-preload cl cl-19 tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel ns-win easymenu tool-bar dnd fontset image fringe lisp-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mldrag mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev loaddefs button minibuffer faces cus-face files text-properties overlay md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process ns multi-tty emacs) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 12 13:32:19 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2010 17:32:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYMrb-0001pu-9P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:32:19 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYMrZ-0001pp-Ik for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:32:18 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L5G00E00GOFWS00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:31:53 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.120.144]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L5G00CRIGP47S50@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:31:53 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:29:53 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer In-reply-to: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Griepentrog , Adrian Robert Message-id: <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 23:20:22 -0700 > From: Paul Griepentrog > Cc: > > The manual, (info "(emacs) Help Mode"), says "S-TAB" > moves the point to the previous cross reference when in > the *Help* buffer. But, trying from a default emacs > shows "S-TAB" is translated to "C-y": > > emacs -Q > ... ; Get to a *Help* buffer > C-h k S-TAB > > C-y (translated from ) runs the command yank, which is an > interactive compiled Lisp function in `simple.el'. This is Mac-specific, and it is due to this line from term/ns-win.el: (define-key map [S-tab] [25]) I have no idea why this line is there, perhaps Mac users expect this binding. I also don't see how this line plays with the following line from the same ns-win.el, a few lines up: (put 'S-tab 'ascii-character (logior 16 ?\t)) These two lines have been there for almost 2 years. > My guess is that the right place to change this is in the > `button-buffer-map'. No, the right way seems to be to find out why ns-win.el defines this strange mapping. Adrian? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 12 15:03:13 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2010 19:03:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYOHZ-0002YG-2n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:03:13 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYOHX-0002Y9-B1 for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:03:11 -0400 Received: by ewy22 with SMTP id 22so923222ewy.3 for <6616@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:mime-version :content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=ss6l6eeTaaUNBEnHR/TY27DU7Z8pltjmv4WMfsgYX5o=; b=DehH9MA2GeWVJPXxipLrf6UzAFSVtofmk8+FYxKTPh1VjmbcmZCzFGDEiHOKtqM4cN zc7U/7ywDRFybXqs72Pf6LfM7DaOJlzbc1k4Vx0yMiFZkcVHduYJQ4qZQ0m2YtOFp/tj 5cFSi0lPV2ONojjxuXuwR5Gxpyjc1Bea4xH98= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=NjMBZadnoHRytfFOJqICUC003kXoD/Fsn/lQot2LrLy8by0tjx8HPvGR5wNlnGclM2 vPXCaLGHICGuNqOiSgMU1RR/AzG5+1BKoeFS0m2wb0YES95BPS57D7rYsCin9lDd8ARg HoqE3Ek0dgOcaljJEme0f7A/WcWOMaKWwHaz0= Received: by 10.213.31.129 with SMTP id y1mr10655412ebc.81.1278961394212; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dsl-hkibrasgw2-ff6ec300-110.dhcp.inet.fi [88.195.110.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a48sm39533273eei.19.2010.07.12.12.03.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Adrian Robert In-Reply-To: <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:03:11 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> To: Eli Zaretskii X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: Paul Griepentrog , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) On Jul 12, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > This is Mac-specific, and it is due to this line from term/ns-win.el: >=20 > (define-key map [S-tab] [25]) >=20 > I have no idea why this line is there, perhaps Mac users expect this > binding. I also don't see how this line plays with the following line > from the same ns-win.el, a few lines up: >=20 > (put 'S-tab 'ascii-character (logior 16 ?\t)) >=20 > These two lines have been there for almost 2 years. >=20 >> My guess is that the right place to change this is in the >> `button-buffer-map'. >=20 > No, the right way seems to be to find out why ns-win.el defines this > strange mapping. Adrian? These lines were in the file when I started working with the port (more = than 2 years ago ;), and although the definitions got moved around = slightly, I never removed anything unless a problem was reported. Now = that we have this report, I propose removing BOTH of the S-tab lines. I = tried this locally and it did no harm, and let S-tab be interpreted = (though some default mapping seems to translate it to plain tab). The other stuff in ns-alternatives-map appears to be needed though, else = the characters listed there don't get interpreted correctly. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 12 15:12:47 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2010 19:12:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYOQp-0002c9-Iw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:12:47 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYOQl-0002c4-Vt for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:12:45 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L5G00I00L5RZF00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:12:07 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.120.144]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L5G00FUKLC5P880@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:12:06 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:10:06 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Adrian Robert Message-id: <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: pgriepen@gmail.com, 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: Adrian Robert > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:03:11 +0300 > Cc: Paul Griepentrog , > 6616@debbugs.gnu.org > > > These lines were in the file when I started working with the port (more than 2 years ago ;), and although the definitions got moved around slightly, I never removed anything unless a problem was reported. Now that we have this report, I propose removing BOTH of the S-tab lines. I tried this locally and it did no harm, and let S-tab be interpreted (though some default mapping seems to translate it to plain tab). Sure, go ahead and remove these lines, and please close the bug after you do. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 13 01:42:16 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2010 05:42:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYYG0-0006w3-2A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:42:16 -0400 Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.160.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYYFx-0006vx-IX for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:42:14 -0400 Received: by pwj1 with SMTP id 1so2082988pwj.3 for <6616@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:42:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/jhxfhHjRPtDlR6k/DHIHC5t7MBaGIn0no7VQxiOJlQ=; b=ddg4YZUEsNJ1TmYX915PCl/aYmV0J8YRd+JOq9myoat17i9nnaM23NrlEyZa0WJ4ft hkck1VZc7R4v6ByrOO5Oc1v5DsLGYQeePW8wuLswxF7fpudSFLX3OZBW0OvDB6wkJH9k PFIfE4tHYTcD7bXHDw/x2OiGAVwrQy8ycMSrA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qiskRphewrk5xlKiYe4RW0qemTZd/YOYiSuFPooCb+/aC8aZ9Hng3ojPPdHP7FucA7 R7aeL7x4dJL0StbziKAJks4UxjBK9h2OphI80RcmjeiOSxJe9DQyy4Og4kOPFbIblXqn V8IbSDuv1Ai4trRnEtzsEbwDtkhGmSnmY1eqg= Received: by 10.114.197.12 with SMTP id u12mr17416060waf.183.1278999735794; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from walnut.local (c-76-102-20-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.102.20.45]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q6sm80643652waj.10.2010.07.12.22.42.14 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:42:14 -0700 From: Paul Griepentrog User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.4) Gecko/20100608 Thunderbird/3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: Adrian Robert , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) Thanks for looking into this. On 7/12/10 12:10 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Adrian Robert > > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:03:11 +0300 > > Cc: Paul Griepentrog , > > 6616@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > These lines were in the file when I started working with the port (more > > than 2 years ago ;), and although the definitions got moved around > > slightly, I never removed anything unless a problem was reported. Now that > > we have this report, I propose removing BOTH of the S-tab lines. I tried > > this locally and it did no harm, and let S-tab be interpreted (though some > > default mapping seems to translate it to plain tab). With the proposed change there still is no binding for backward-button in *Help* and many other modes... the real problem. The translation from S-TAB to TAB effectively drops the shift modifier. How about removing: (put 'S-tab 'ascii-character (logior 16 ?\t)) and binding [S-tab] to [backtab] in the `ns-alternatives-map' instead? (define-key map [S-tab] [backtab]) Maybe stretching it here, but along this line of thinking, is it useful to distinguish between [S-tab] and [backtab]? Bug #1281 points out that it becomes a hassle for users -- at least under Windows OS -- who must rebind both [S-tab] and [backtab]. If it is not useful, we could remove the duplicate bindings which several modes provide. These modes often bind a combination of [S-tab], "\M-\t" or "\e\t" to the same function invoked by [backtab]: - forms - info - widget - org-table - org - mh-letter - mh-folder - mh-show - info Instead we could align it to other modes which only use [backtab] - erc - grep - compile - ses - diff-mode - log-view Thanks for the consideration. > Sure, go ahead and remove these lines, and please close the bug after > you do. > > Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 13 03:28:27 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2010 07:28:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYZuk-0007e7-DL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 03:28:26 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f44.google.com ([209.85.215.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYZui-0007e2-LQ for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 03:28:25 -0400 Received: by ewy22 with SMTP id 22so1021324ewy.3 for <6616@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:28:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:mime-version :content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=5byLaAZX6tId82wyDywNPbtZPuY6EJn+f0Sdwm504c4=; b=RvyJ7gI95/yA/UY5IMmy4VuR8RezG2aeRg1LO6MnrWsAXsw1Jz4imoWpImtpQlw8yJ HAsfV9mihH6u6yEBQrMY+Y271Z6RUN9eVWoIyLqdv9hzytH6VLQzP230KiaPpG9DEIw6 LpmcL+sReR2CnFloUMqX5GjVBhWHt3QooBuWs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=Y1AKl3w4aaQa7WH+D0ylHr1V/ujCRcuD/MV6xkksadaAKholNN9Ay5XMqESuHZFR0g w/6RyXMHVl5k+WLJ2HfZv06SZQkqVany0Bah4WkvTI0FJwplUcX6U8EkD69XnuF6yEgK NtY9qofG7rFArXGkGec0sd4DB4cRL97Vus3no= Received: by 10.213.7.2 with SMTP id b2mr2395863ebb.22.1279006108880; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dsl-hkibrasgw2-ff6ec300-110.dhcp.inet.fi [88.195.110.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v59sm44710886eeh.4.2010.07.13.00.28.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Adrian Robert In-Reply-To: <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:28:26 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0EA136E5-C775-4BF4-8C73-26EDCE90A5FD@gmail.com> References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> To: Paul Griepentrog X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > With the proposed change there still is no binding for backward-button = in > *Help* and many other modes... the real problem. The translation from = S-TAB > to TAB effectively drops the shift modifier. >=20 > ... >=20 > and binding [S-tab] to [backtab] in the `ns-alternatives-map' instead? Not against this but I'd like to understand why it is needed. All apps = that I've seen treat shift-tab as different from tab, whether this is = internally called "backtab" or whatever. Can someone explain why the = mapping S-tab -> tab is present in emacs? Or is this resulting from = something other issue specific to the NS port? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 13 05:51:15 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2010 09:51:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYc8w-0000DH-6V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:51:14 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYc8t-0000DC-O3 for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:51:12 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L5H00900PZIG100@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:51:15 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.120.144]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L5H0024KQ1E7ID0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:51:15 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:49:16 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer In-reply-to: <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Griepentrog Message-id: <83k4ozsodf.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: adrian.b.robert@gmail.com, 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:42:14 -0700 > From: Paul Griepentrog > CC: Adrian Robert , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org > > (define-key map [S-tab] [backtab]) FWIW, w32-fns.el does this for MS-Windows. Maybe ns-win.el should do the same. > Maybe stretching it here, but along this line of thinking, is it useful to > distinguish between [S-tab] and [backtab]? They are potentially two different keys, so I think they should be distinguished. > Bug #1281 points out that it becomes a hassle for users -- at least > under Windows OS -- who must rebind both [S-tab] and [backtab]. That bug is about info.el, not about remapping S-tab. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 13 05:52:47 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2010 09:52:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYcAR-0000Dv-9j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:52:47 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYcAP-0000Dq-DO for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:52:45 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L5H00900PZIG100@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:52:50 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.120.144]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L5H003ZKQ4008B0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:52:50 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:50:50 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer In-reply-to: <0EA136E5-C775-4BF4-8C73-26EDCE90A5FD@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Adrian Robert Message-id: <83iq4jsoat.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> <0EA136E5-C775-4BF4-8C73-26EDCE90A5FD@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: pgriepen@gmail.com, 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: Adrian Robert > Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:28:26 +0300 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , > 6616@debbugs.gnu.org > > Can someone explain why the mapping S-tab -> tab is present in > emacs? Perhaps because Emacs removes the Shift modifier if the shifted key is unbound? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 13 06:47:25 2010 Received: (at 6616-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2010 10:47:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYd1J-0000dU-I8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 06:47:25 -0400 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYd1H-0000dP-Cr for 6616-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 06:47:23 -0400 Received: by eyb7 with SMTP id 7so753512eyb.3 for <6616-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 03:47:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version :x-mailer; bh=LK57eNknUYwM+NEWRYpTfeFDiFctFm6gaVxZlRzQGSU=; b=d9z3jLO4m2T6hl60H58o3FldJT6XazMOL9JRZ6XYppunshvRCtIWMSqleZyBT2VJs/ MgMLEYRCccX1i9Vx9eCRsXmQZ1qt4+lmeTWm+qYCIIock//8x6KrkmJltu4kjDbSLb7j L7W4jQUbXFw8GpgiMS/woe6c73XWNiYsP4cUs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id :to:mime-version:x-mailer; b=IflnyLg57Rqmhxo93Tg/uv0qHqaKlZ+QTI/6xZt+I/gh+YNKv7fPUIe3PkedjihjDS XvI4QOfVOifkFAzyKlClD9XJAmYcBD5euYQUov/c9YHbibN2Mj+zDfAA4JJyDFjK1qc4 W3+1LD0e8l8nbbnLkEQtRSGwj1lHrjBneVlWk= Received: by 10.213.41.11 with SMTP id m11mr10838524ebe.19.1279018046351; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 03:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dsl-hkibrasgw2-ff6ec300-110.dhcp.inet.fi [88.195.110.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z55sm46098931eeh.3.2010.07.13.03.47.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 13 Jul 2010 03:47:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Adrian Robert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Closing, checked fix in to trunk r100808 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:47:24 +0300 Message-Id: <22DC9BAE-3262-406B-A07A-27D0FB85F5E6@gmail.com> To: 6616-done@debbugs.gnu.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) S-tab is now translated to backtab as in w32. Further debate on simplifying / lifting the handling of this generic key = will take place on separate thread. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 31 20:04:23 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2010 00:04:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfM2R-0004mh-6P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:04:23 -0400 Received: from impaqm1.telefonica.net ([213.4.138.1]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfM2O-0004mc-I8 for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:04:21 -0400 Received: from IMPmailhost2.adm.correo ([10.20.102.39]) by IMPaqm1.telefonica.net with bizsmtp id ondC1e00Y0r0BT601o4etj; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 02:04:38 +0200 Received: from ceviche.home ([88.12.128.66]) by IMPmailhost2.adm.correo with BIZ IMP id oo4d1e0091S5DLQ1io4eCB; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 02:04:38 +0200 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-TE-authinfo: authemail="monnier$movistar.es" |auth_email="monnier@movistar.es" X-TE-AcuTerraCos: auth_cuTerraCos="cosuitnetc01" Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 9896766140; Sun, 1 Aug 2010 02:04:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Paul Griepentrog Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Message-ID: References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 02:04:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> (Paul Griepentrog's message of "Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:42:14 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Adrian Robert , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > and binding [S-tab] to [backtab] in the `ns-alternatives-map' instead? Actually, we might want to do that everywhere, rather than only in x-win.el and ns-win.el. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 01 10:25:18 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2010 14:25:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfZTZ-0002We-S7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:25:18 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfZTW-0002WX-L9 for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:25:15 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o71EPXY8032370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 1 Aug 2010 14:25:34 GMT Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o71EPVVp003923; Sun, 1 Aug 2010 14:25:32 GMT Received: from abhmt003.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 455844361280672650; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 07:24:10 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.222.80) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 07:24:09 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "'Paul Griepentrog'" References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org><83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> Subject: RE: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 07:24:06 -0700 Message-ID: <75F343B7B5464F16B7E14D0F0E18BC5F@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcsxDZtMahAGaKnqRyWZBYW2AzVYBwAdfQGA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4C5583DD.0029:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: 'Adrian Robert' , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > > and binding [S-tab] to [backtab] in the > `ns-alternatives-map' instead? > > Actually, we might want to do that everywhere, rather than only in > x-win.el and ns-win.el. I disagree. S-TAB has always been a free global key, and it has remained free in most keymaps. In Emacs there are several different behaviors that here and there are associated with TAB. The use of TAB for navigation in the sense of being opposite to [backtab] (e.g. navigation in Info or *Help*) is only one of them, and it is a fairly minor one (for Emacs). We only recently added it to Info. Arguably it can be said to make sense for other, similar read-only modes such as *Help*. Beyond that it does not necessarily make sense. Please do not bind S-TAB in a general way to [backtab] or anything else. Modes that really need that can do so. That leaves other code (e.g. other modes, user code, 3rd-party code) free to use S-TAB for other uses, especially uses that are related to a particular use of TAB. TAB for navigation is only one use of TAB. We already have potential and some real conflicts between different meanings of TAB. A mode needs to choose which meaning it prefers when there is a potential conflict. Some modes try to combine such behaviors into a DWIM behavior. This is enough - let's not make this more problematic by throwing S-TAB into the mix in a predefined way. Let the code in question decide. Bind S-TAB to `backtab' for *Help* if you want - that's helpful. Likewise perhaps some view-mode contexts (maybe all of them; dunno). But otherwise please leave it alone. Thx. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 01 13:37:45 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2010 17:37:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfcTp-0003qs-1z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 13:37:45 -0400 Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com ([74.125.83.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfcTm-0003qm-NQ for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 13:37:43 -0400 Received: by pvd12 with SMTP id 12so1061779pvd.3 for <6616@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:38:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=937b6PXnTo+hjB73MbThpVKGx6VKmVtZ/uWLW1SA3KQ=; b=XgnTyMSdxnbo6Oe7BfD5dwhMxc25Ll+RHipqaY6WusaRo2caWtSphTLJh5iKcYuusg ZgiMXFBYALC2EB+1qIzl3rxIBtCfwQRpotqU04S91E8dbrWJARP06iX8dVuQRDWbfipq 5G8X6Ng6z5XD+W3HqPuoQS8NTg/ekw2BRkIY8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=opZS84saaJFLGoV5lxvjurC3wSIIuJ5pObAhCi4go6T4283CFo62V0fDPuxx5xsxrk Z+EoDf9sYCTRj3KpM2jnC1KcVArdETBE1KfacKwRAnIpZXEWnPdX73eFiJ9ZPGcL1GTE C+dK7j8f0+3uZjEIskSsio8/KArPrsY1drVEU= Received: by 10.114.79.1 with SMTP id c1mr5931565wab.1.1280684283206; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from walnut.local (c-76-102-20-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.102.20.45]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q6sm9402595waj.22.2010.08.01.10.38.02 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C55B0F9.1060101@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:38:01 -0700 From: Paul Griepentrog User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.7) Gecko/20100713 Thunderbird/3.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Adrian Robert , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 7/31/10 5:04 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > and binding [S-tab] to [backtab] in the `ns-alternatives-map' instead? > > Actually, we might want to do that everywhere, rather than only in > x-win.el and ns-win.el. Thinking more about the problem, I think the confusion comes from a perfect storm of evolution: - The [backtab] key does not exist on modern keyboards, but several modes define keybindings only for [backtab]. (See erc, grep, compile, ses, diff-mode and log-view.) - But, X and Windows translate [S-tab] into [backtab], so you don't even notice this unless you're working on a platform/ terminal without this mapping, for example: Mac OS X. - Add to that: people treat [backtab] as logically the same as [S-tab], even though they are different key presses when you have a [backtab] key. As a developer, I would be confused. I need to map both for my mode to be consistent across terminals/platforms. Several modes do this exactly. (See forms, info, widget, org, and mh.) I say, pick a solution and make it consistent across the modes shipped with Emacs. IMHO, [S-tab] is the 'correct' binding, since we press those actual keys. Update all the modes using [backtab] to use [S-tab]. Now, anybody who has a [backtab] key can actually use it, and the rest continue with [S-tab], like they always did. For compatibility with external modes, we could map [backtab] to [S-tab]. I can offer a patch to this effect. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 01 14:59:10 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2010 18:59:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofdkc-0004RH-Oc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:59:10 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofdkb-0004R9-Hp for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 14:59:09 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o71IxTC4032360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:59:30 GMT Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o71IxR3J013580; Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:59:27 GMT Received: from abhmt015.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 456015911280689159; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:59:19 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.222.80) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:59:19 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "'Paul Griepentrog'" References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com><83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org><83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org><4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> <75F343B7B5464F16B7E14D0F0E18BC5F@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 11:59:18 -0700 Message-ID: <28C12A395EEA4885B8502ED8CE9AF52C@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <75F343B7B5464F16B7E14D0F0E18BC5F@us.oracle.com> Thread-Index: AcsxDZtMahAGaKnqRyWZBYW2AzVYBwAdfQGAAAniXcA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4C55C411.008F:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: 'Adrian Robert' , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) I probably muddied the waters with my previous post. I was concerned about our default-binding S-tab unnecessarily to a _command_. But I see now that that is not what you are discussing. I have no problem in general with treating S-tab and backtab as the same key, for the reason Paul mentioned: there is no physical backtab key (typically). Sorry for the noise. I was thinking that this was about binding S-tab to a backward navigation _command_, such as we do now in Info. My bad. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 01 19:32:34 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2010 23:32:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofi1C-0006FP-24 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 19:32:34 -0400 Received: from impaqm4.telefonica.net ([213.4.138.4]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofi1A-0006FK-1n for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 19:32:32 -0400 Received: from IMPmailhost3.adm.correo ([10.20.102.124]) by IMPaqm4.telefonica.net with bizsmtp id pAyG1e00Z2h2L9m3QBYth9; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 01:32:53 +0200 Received: from ceviche.home ([83.61.38.247]) by IMPmailhost3.adm.correo with BIZ IMP id pBYs1e0055KwfZf1jBYtNU; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 01:32:53 +0200 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-TE-authinfo: authemail="monnier$movistar.es" |auth_email="monnier@movistar.es" X-TE-AcuTerraCos: auth_cuTerraCos="cosuitnetc01" Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5F69466140; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 01:32:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Message-ID: References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> <75F343B7B5464F16B7E14D0F0E18BC5F@us.oracle.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 01:32:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <75F343B7B5464F16B7E14D0F0E18BC5F@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 1 Aug 2010 07:24:06 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: 'Adrian Robert' , 'Paul Griepentrog' , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) >> > and binding [S-tab] to [backtab] in the >> `ns-alternatives-map' instead? >> Actually, we might want to do that everywhere, rather than only in >> x-win.el and ns-win.el. > I disagree. S-TAB has always been a free global key, and it has > remained free in most keymaps. IIUC you don't disagree, you just misunderstand: the binding from S-tab to backtab is via function-key-map, i.e. it's only used if there's no binding to S-tab. IOW it's just a fallback. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 01 20:03:03 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2010 00:03:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfiUh-0006SE-KE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 20:03:03 -0400 Received: from impaqm2.telefonica.net ([213.4.138.2]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfiUf-0006Rs-P8 for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 20:03:02 -0400 Received: from IMPmailhost5.adm.correo ([10.20.102.126]) by IMPaqm2.telefonica.net with bizsmtp id p98A1e00Z2jdgqJ3MC3C6G; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 02:03:12 +0200 Received: from ceviche.home ([83.61.38.247]) by IMPmailhost5.adm.correo with BIZ IMP id pC3B1e00F5KwfZf1lC3B1e; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 02:03:12 +0200 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-TE-authinfo: authemail="monnier$movistar.es" |auth_email="monnier@movistar.es" X-TE-AcuTerraCos: auth_cuTerraCos="cosuitnetc01" Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 294C166125; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 02:03:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Paul Griepentrog Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Message-ID: References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> <4C55B0F9.1060101@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 02:03:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4C55B0F9.1060101@gmail.com> (Paul Griepentrog's message of "Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:38:01 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Adrian Robert , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) > I say, pick a solution and make it consistent across the modes > shipped with Emacs. IMHO, [S-tab] is the 'correct' binding, > since we press those actual keys. In most cases I've seen `backtab' is the "correct" binding because it's the one that makes logical sense: the command is about doing something in the opposite direction from what the `tab' key does. The reason why S-tab is (also) used is that `backtab' is rarely available, and as a convention we use S-tab as a poor man's backtab. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 01 21:51:23 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2010 01:51:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfkBX-0007nZ-Id for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:51:23 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfkBU-0007nT-VR for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:51:21 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o721pfsf007822 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 Aug 2010 01:51:42 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o721dVXc023653; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 01:51:39 GMT Received: from abhmt021.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 456327371280713873; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:51:13 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.98) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:51:13 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org><83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com><75F343B7B5464F16B7E14D0F0E18BC5F@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:51:13 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acsx0d8IjF/M4tP1SOSX/Sq/YlZQ4QAExtJw In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4C5624AD.00A0:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: 'Adrian Robert' , 'Paul Griepentrog' , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > >> > and binding [S-tab] to [backtab] in the > >> `ns-alternatives-map' instead? > >> Actually, we might want to do that everywhere, rather than only in > >> x-win.el and ns-win.el. > > > I disagree. S-TAB has always been a free global key, and it has > > remained free in most keymaps. > > IIUC you don't disagree, you just misunderstand: the binding > from S-tab to backtab is via function-key-map, i.e. it's only > used if there's no binding to S-tab. IOW it's just a fallback. Yes. I misunderstood. See my other followup mail. For some reason, I thought this was about binding a command to S-tab (and backtab) everywhere. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 01 21:57:33 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2010 01:57:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfkHV-0007qE-GI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:57:33 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfkHT-0007q8-71 for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:57:31 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o721vpWr014119 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 Aug 2010 01:57:52 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o71NpoLG012257; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 01:57:50 GMT Received: from abhmt020.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 456335961280714269; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:57:49 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.98) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:57:49 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "'Paul Griepentrog'" References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org><83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> <4C55B0F9.1060101@gmail.com> Subject: RE: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:57:50 -0700 Message-ID: <4CD0D87139BC44498B99843347AF787B@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acsx1tn6lYRStIbnSK6MM4d0XJbAHQADmqsw In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4C56261F.0084:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: 'Adrian Robert' , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > > I say, pick a solution and make it consistent across the modes > > shipped with Emacs. IMHO, [S-tab] is the 'correct' binding, > > since we press those actual keys. > > In most cases I've seen `backtab' is the "correct" binding > because it's > the one that makes logical sense: the command is about doing something > in the opposite direction from what the `tab' key does. > The reason why S-tab is (also) used is that `backtab' is rarely > available, and as a convention we use S-tab as a poor man's backtab. Hm. Then perhaps I do disagree. I thought that I had misunderstood and this was not, after all, about binding the S-tab or backtab key to any given command by default, but it was just about linking S-tab to backtab (both being keys). I would oppose binding either key to some command everywhere, "fallback" or not. As soon as that happens we will get people who complain if a 3rd-party library binds S-tab, even optionally or via an initialization command. S-tab and backtab keys can be linked to each other by default for convenience, but they should both be free of any command by default - except in particular contexts (e.g. *Help*, Info). BTW, there are not only the S-tab and backtab keys that should (perhaps) be linked together by default, but also the S-iso-tab key. Typically, when code binds S-tab it also needs to bind S-iso-tab. At least in some cases, we have already taken care of that via backtab, IIRC. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 02 00:30:09 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2010 04:30:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfmfA-0000PM-QP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 00:30:09 -0400 Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com ([74.125.83.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofmf8-0000Oi-En for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 00:30:07 -0400 Received: by pvd12 with SMTP id 12so1163015pvd.3 for <6616@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:30:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cIfEOUcNt/BDth/uhMSroEJLgKjpdMsgDMwV4c7XpDY=; b=x2kr2vS1/KXpNJevsJ865wxcz6IEEtAiqO8VNkuzigR1h3Vah9Qu2DF1rkX2pYm82l DUcCxckG4F+Ra6Bd4Xeb33kB878IK032yBpzv8d/UyU7320Gt1hgE0dokyqG96fC2qkf tgK7zWDJpBa3tAKvlK1nNoWVLz8Whlp+uEYJg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=md/0oLjvSYKtg7AIN0TW8qPC84ZdkBWJBPqriHxMIENl7D07aQJSUFQ6QcpNZJG9Yi LYUtLUN3LL3JslZLvKJCvqKJxmWsOPvm7AB2DQW4srl1LyuIrwbholpcrogIbmaNqTcl f9e4ZYbl4+1FlP+82Hyb5+tYurVpTRGOzlgJ4= Received: by 10.114.67.14 with SMTP id p14mr6683731waa.102.1280723427704; Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from walnut.local (c-76-102-20-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.102.20.45]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d35sm10580216waa.21.2010.08.01.21.30.26 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C5649E2.4030603@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:30:26 -0700 From: Paul Griepentrog User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.7) Gecko/20100713 Thunderbird/3.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> <4C55B0F9.1060101@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Adrian Robert , Drew Adams , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) On 8/1/10 5:03 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > I say, pick a solution and make it consistent across the modes > > shipped with Emacs. IMHO, [S-tab] is the 'correct' binding, > > since we press those actual keys. > > In most cases I've seen `backtab' is the "correct" binding because it's > the one that makes logical sense: the command is about doing something > in the opposite direction from what the `tab' key does. > The reason why S-tab is (also) used is that `backtab' is rarely > available, and as a convention we use S-tab as a poor man's backtab. Works for me. I wrote a short proposal to Emacs Dev to stretch the idea to a bigger audience than the bug report, which Adrian closed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 02 04:22:43 2010 Received: (at 6616) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2010 08:22:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfqIF-00023n-9f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 04:22:43 -0400 Received: from impaqm1.telefonica.net ([213.4.138.1]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfqIC-00023b-Gu for 6616@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 04:22:41 -0400 Received: from IMPmailhost4.adm.correo ([10.20.102.125]) by IMPaqm1.telefonica.net with bizsmtp id pJHQ1e00a2iL0W201LNgMi; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 10:22:40 +0200 Received: from ceviche.home ([83.61.38.247]) by IMPmailhost4.adm.correo with BIZ IMP id pLNb1e0045KwfZf1kLNbTZ; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 10:22:39 +0200 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-TE-authinfo: authemail="monnier$movistar.es" |auth_email="monnier@movistar.es" X-TE-AcuTerraCos: auth_cuTerraCos="cosuitnetc01" Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id ED01066125; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:22:34 +0200 (CEST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#6616: S-TAB is mismapped in the *Help* buffer Message-ID: References: <4C3AB426.2040500@gmail.com> <83pqyssj5a.fsf@gnu.org> <83mxtwsei9.fsf@gnu.org> <4C3BFCB6.8000002@gmail.com> <4C55B0F9.1060101@gmail.com> <4CD0D87139BC44498B99843347AF787B@us.oracle.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 10:22:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4CD0D87139BC44498B99843347AF787B@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:57:50 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6616 Cc: 'Adrian Robert' , 'Paul Griepentrog' , 6616@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) > Hm. Then perhaps I do disagree. I still think you don't. > I thought that I had misunderstood > and this was not, after all, about binding the S-tab or backtab key to > any given command by default, but it was just about linking S-tab to > backtab (both being keys). Indeed, that's what it's about. > I would oppose binding either key to some command everywhere, > "fallback" or not. It's not bound to anything in global-map, AFAIK. > S-tab and backtab keys can be linked to each other by default for > convenience, but they should both be free of any command by default - > except in particular contexts (e.g. *Help*, Info). That's the current (new) state in emacs-23 (not yet propagated to trunk). > BTW, there are not only the S-tab and backtab keys that should > (perhaps) be linked together by default, but also the S-iso-tab key. > Typically, when code binds S-tab it also needs to bind S-iso-tab. > At least in some cases, we have already taken care of that via > backtab, IIRC. Never heard of `iso-tab' (we have `iso-lefttab', tho, so maybe that's a hint that there's an `iso-tab' somewhere as well). Is that event found under W32, or X11, or when? Stefan From unknown Fri Sep 05 16:18:15 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator