From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:42:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.16946016994626 (code B ref -1); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:42:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 10:41:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60915 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgNJS-0001CW-W6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 06:41:39 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:50798) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgNJO-0001CH-W0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 06:41:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgNJD-0003im-W0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 06:41:24 -0400 Received: from mail-4318.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.18]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgNJA-0001IS-5g for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 06:41:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694601675; x=1694860875; bh=zHKu8EV3/pGgc6I4CgM0Zp/xr44TmcOOd/6NpJGDyIQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=BMOKCQi9xV4OSI/fA4Hum9UO0Kxl6IM2CcLoCv0oo35Rqe8XXbHTwwvv2SILjwK4M smPlZ2y5RSoOpNprIJBUPfFSjSduS8nhiq8THY8wvaIqyf0lF2XUbuw1UIgI3N/WkP V6cyBa25ojZXHSRpMkh6DwSy9SJB5imQXTGwVSxGToPIY0pSEfeCalKDxv+KkFtHkD UnC4JVRhlZ9AFJ4MYENu68oJagiJjwPhrwqrkRJy0k032hkSJ+UC0F7V/bvhSTq/sP u1faWzd8WI1Zpug+/tAnhVd/78XsC2Lk0ohZk8C9PU8nPfurf71KaUDmIoJBjw1QNX hKA1XpJZQAGRA== Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:41:01 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.18; envelope-from=heimeborgia@protonmail.com; helo=mail-4318.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Any time one wants to write (insert) into a read-only buffer (e.g. *help*),= =20 one has to make it writable. Doesn't matter when that time is. If it's=20 read-only you need to make it writable to write into it. Reading the source for 'with-help-window', it arranges for 'inhibit-read-on= ly'=20 to be set to 't' around the call to its body. Once the body finishes, that= =20 temporary binding goes out of scope and read-only is in effect again. The aforementioned resetting of 'inhibit-read-only' to 't' is an important= =20 feature that should be included in the docstring for the function 'with-hel= p-window'. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:14:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Heime , Stefan Kangas Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946108137891 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:14:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 13:13:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32933 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgPgS-00023D-NP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:13:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48798) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgPgR-000231-Kt for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:13:31 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgPgH-0001aK-0U; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:13:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=nFLfjd/ZcApmx70/MjTG51fkI3GPvbCVC+rBciGlEnU=; b=fiumC/HAHFdx xpu/KwX4qQcj4A4/QcSj7OetZQBhsMGdfGRCcAb+Gh491SkB5AoO7ruXAvqFJaaGKs5AywXhfAtpS lTTQYtcRfGIFXbP6MMiTPnMD8YCeSb1l5PWea9iDPVOUIHJnDW9meLWtfuzyRgIdfU2YXrd/BiW3T Neevkc993ejL5+4E89npKo0by07DwAk9KJIesStQwU5xxUrS+yzN6egc5zwmXnqHpg55q4HGK8yo/ ++ABUBKwUu/9jO3CTuJB/99i5BRLYqyidAx9c7TPxcMOn0ltwRaEm2ISRSqpCybQBJ33rjZRRg/kZ pdLceuC9BQutiMxw5/mnCw==; Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 16:13:09 +0300 Message-Id: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:41:01 +0000 > From: Heime via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Any time one wants to write (insert) into a read-only buffer (e.g. *help*), > one has to make it writable. Doesn't matter when that time is. If it's > read-only you need to make it writable to write into it. > > Reading the source for 'with-help-window', it arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' > to be set to 't' around the call to its body. Once the body finishes, that > temporary binding goes out of scope and read-only is in effect again. > > The aforementioned resetting of 'inhibit-read-only' to 't' is an important > feature that should be included in the docstring for the function 'with-help-window'. I disagree. The use of inhibit-read-only is an implementation detail of with-help-window (and of many other functions in Emacs); mentioning it in the doc string will IMO have no useful purpose. The doc string of "C-x C-q" (read-only-mode) does mention inhibit-read-only, which is I think a much more reasonable place for a reference to that variable. Stefan, WDYT? From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:28:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946116299126 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:28:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 13:27:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32948 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgPtd-0002N8-4W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:27:09 -0400 Received: from mail-40130.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.130]:27301) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgPtb-0002Mc-9m for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:27:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694611615; x=1694870815; bh=rpCgAu2l0jqq/PhV+QZNGU7elbC91EDOLXzsuxHnJYk=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=VwrsOS465tsgHO4/E7l+ra5OACIuKy7Hd9jNl9mk3a57ZYhqMRj6HzJY6M9UC9zqU cZCwHURkItndhqM3URhh/hmTQuGKlHYAE+6mE9hnI32RwWEnSqOl9rbXjt1ggvreIt WnlmVqgh+Q+6qK54gAXSduPKNHm3F/P4wDHdlIuOejW+s1SZ7gLnR0iGsC3eCqAYor 5g6glyOOruAs9/JgT9fM559vgC6rz+q5+QV3QbNtpbJKwZbXvZMslr8eBYK9FToDSy e0L2gbYVw8fkuvTD4W2++kvrLCOjPRDpSYGszHRk04bl0XJrtFewomqiZmpWEPMKw2 T2XVBjZJja8MA== Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:26:51 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: <_hKt5j_6bUwtEyWyE-e6GenkfdjfDll8AAVkejgxh3gyiYkvovpnhPNs1-ijjzyQaXlAJNSKb917yFQKrejO0q4tTql2vw0iu35n-JbUl8w=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 1:13 AM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: > > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:41:01 +0000 > > From: Heime via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > > the Swiss army knife of text editors" bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > >=20 > > Any time one wants to write (insert) into a read-only buffer (e.g. help= ), > > one has to make it writable. Doesn't matter when that time is. If it's > > read-only you need to make it writable to write into it. > >=20 > > Reading the source for 'with-help-window', it arranges for 'inhibit-rea= d-only' > > to be set to 't' around the call to its body. Once the body finishes, t= hat > > temporary binding goes out of scope and read-only is in effect again. > >=20 > > The aforementioned resetting of 'inhibit-read-only' to 't' is an import= ant > > feature that should be included in the docstring for the function 'with= -help-window'. >=20 >=20 > I disagree. The use of inhibit-read-only is an implementation detail > of with-help-window (and of many other functions in Emacs); mentioning > it in the doc string will IMO have no useful purpose. >=20 > The doc string of "C-x C-q" (read-only-mode) does mention > inhibit-read-only, which is I think a much more reasonable place for a > reference to that variable. >=20 > Stefan, WDYT? Docstrings have become so short at times that reading them is of no practic= al=20 use. The reality of it is not simply an implementation detail of no conseq= uence. Because if a developers knows that detail, ho would refrain form introducin= g things like=20 (with-help-window (help-buffer) (setq buffer-read-only nil) (insert " Graphic Organisation") (setq buffer-read-only t)) and instead immediately write (with-help-window (help-buffer) (insert " Graphic Organisation")) =20 From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:58:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Heime Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169461342924494 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:58:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 13:57:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35454 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQMf-0006N0-AA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:57:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40824) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQMb-0006Mc-UY for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:57:07 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQMR-0000Sg-22; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:56:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=qyg6bEzQuCqTfHLeqxekhXUAF9S751j664QGg4JuEsw=; b=MiOclJ6ZeMBR KoOvDXF8tlSAaNiWRa1JIS+F+WPis1Bx/pZKADZ2lGxBOxxxyY3HCsyKuv9U4Jdmskx9Bbep0CFR+ J0WL7N8tfVmtkcxDThisrS1cCqLxLKnIeVHvlM1j9OYAME2RwGhOXv8Xw/Vz03066QmRGgwDKsnDL OSyyoXEa8xoEgTYwCyBBCLNaGbbxkF0tmkaN8fhxEecWB0VwcPkGqgIw/CNrXb8FTlXUR32j/hEAi +rnXIEZAN/A+fqdjBvcYTq8VRDIAwWq6JHFJYkVbl0UTrp7AZ01LvCBeMFG/5wvR4nsoZmUOR7Ige 4nuBqHdNyO+AcLgX44UHbQ==; Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 16:56:30 +0300 Message-Id: <834jjynpm9.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <_hKt5j_6bUwtEyWyE-e6GenkfdjfDll8AAVkejgxh3gyiYkvovpnhPNs1-ijjzyQaXlAJNSKb917yFQKrejO0q4tTql2vw0iu35n-JbUl8w=@protonmail.com> (message from Heime on Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:26:51 +0000) References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <_hKt5j_6bUwtEyWyE-e6GenkfdjfDll8AAVkejgxh3gyiYkvovpnhPNs1-ijjzyQaXlAJNSKb917yFQKrejO0q4tTql2vw0iu35n-JbUl8w=@protonmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:26:51 +0000 > From: Heime > Cc: Stefan Kangas , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > > Docstrings have become so short at times that reading them is of no practical > use. Only because you think everything can be learned from scratch by reading only some more or less random doc strings. That's not how programming in Emacs Lisp should be learned. There's a large Emacs Lisp Reference manual, which has a separate section named "Read-Only Buffers". If you read it when you started working with read-only buffers, you'd have found the inhibit-read-only variable described there. Our recommendation is to read the relevant parts of the ELisp manual whenever you need for the first time work with a specific aspect of Emacs Lisp. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Heime Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946138873074 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:05:01 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 14:04:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35462 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQU3-0000nW-2n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:04:47 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::235]:54379) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQTz-0000nG-R6 for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:04:44 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2bfc2b26437so1310371fa.0 for <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694613872; x=1695218672; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=z2N+Y1zXH/XX78sutxTrnUtxOoDKuYRs2BgpZ8LcAQ8=; b=O1q/VH1sWARuqD/gvnTo4cNmBYrg4hfPiy3wHORqTCKVSL2G0TASdRU7KrGSttAbmt x9dHOmOxk42E/MZKQDx7Jk3lsfWlGy86uB7bYufwdiwWA9T9errRQ/8JY3YNXoBrh5P+ Uxk5wwMUPecM3xgTCRCraciVKkItzXvwvd2PPlmbkKlEiRaKwDOuhzP7oZLQuUuhgL9b GgXLO6oFvnhyWI8X4QqKD7v0vdt35w3JTHuJZaN1xX0wTFDvsk9gWQ2NHv5v8dRMmHj8 C6vXchhkGK7Ysvl0+hDbbqYMv253PLCkcjb9o0Uh2YTnqIuWrSCaL1dOGhS81sgSQS2R uoFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694613872; x=1695218672; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=z2N+Y1zXH/XX78sutxTrnUtxOoDKuYRs2BgpZ8LcAQ8=; b=bXpCCf8lGD/BRWbk4AI7AV2xtCn6H/PZlx/izijPX3OKUWBoNtsUuaO7PHSvxwaSR/ BXjqifAMqIYKt8rL1yLfFXqjkZCndm2L/8MUn8x6wfAU5vndoPcLXKP0wOtJI5gQcin7 soq2al1jG0RzV4ImyT+CkEYc78RB8zmNX3dk10d1R4IqBHJLVDpDlL1XRUpwMP731gdr 0Rb7isXWwnxFB0DNe1M+RHX+OZMzcz6baNQ+BfjPlQ8JS1K3DagtH9YIz5+Hg7aWPi24 UlnMlHLazwUk7iFIZW7uR9UKKuOFiyyw+I6v7SAeBwSZKb5/TQVpj8CG4uopM9FgtV/J 7txA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzNFql2UvDdCGrGfVZVBEZpou6+xEJnW/uuIY6dEt83nuABcxIZ Mxid09og+/lLY2bt79VTBSwbh+TYZtzWatNsuw4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFG61pRvmG6mgEelYnUR5nGB/IdoXKtn7CcFM/1cvv35gJYQ7d4tgKw9li0O/390KrSCDYqEJqY3rMWVfKsiD4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8190:0:b0:2b1:ed29:7c47 with SMTP id e16-20020a2e8190000000b002b1ed297c47mr2542305ljg.8.1694613872337; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:04:31 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:04:31 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > I disagree. The use of inhibit-read-only is an implementation detail > of with-help-window (and of many other functions in Emacs); mentioning > it in the doc string will IMO have no useful purpose. > > The doc string of "C-x C-q" (read-only-mode) does mention > inhibit-read-only, which is I think a much more reasonable place for a > reference to that variable. > > Stefan, WDYT? I tend to agree with you. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:28:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946152295345 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:28:01 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 14:27:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35530 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQph-0001O8-CB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:27:09 -0400 Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]:48451) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQpe-0001Nb-1N for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:27:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694615210; x=1694874410; bh=8KGBdBKXu90awiT6NxcoHFrTPYMSoJhi2Z17EyxLVPI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=t0YDX4JRMwo0/1nQVmZC9MQ5PQ7WjRQYiBMChoNx66nDpOL1RRF8QvZhhT1luvRew RPIke9hD+nhBygCoXXSnP7o0ypmDIVNZ/wfAIHcOOngmsTWHfU/1RI7y8lW/6evQVn Vs6G26kC2mD7vToZz6cf9cNiyO+ebOPj4zRxm9kBGKJ4zZAtkNDa2eg2IFeR+nV2n3 Q3Lbk4pGFaTKJ6+ySwcrz77kCa9Lyxj5wTZruNQxGx0pax9eHq/PC6wKy94AFuOrKI UAnlhh88C/HG49AdS98YoqK/fz61xQlAYxKJm2Lskb+a+8EKb38i+w35S7zwsRTjaR nFjPbQCO0/aHA== Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:26:34 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <834jjynpm9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <_hKt5j_6bUwtEyWyE-e6GenkfdjfDll8AAVkejgxh3gyiYkvovpnhPNs1-ijjzyQaXlAJNSKb917yFQKrejO0q4tTql2vw0iu35n-JbUl8w=@protonmail.com> <834jjynpm9.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 1:56 AM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: > > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:26:51 +0000 > > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com > > Cc: Stefan Kangas stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > >=20 > > Docstrings have become so short at times that reading them is of no pra= ctical > > use. >=20 > Only because you think everything can be learned from scratch by > reading only some more or less random doc strings. That's not how > programming in Emacs Lisp should be learned. There's a large Emacs > Lisp Reference manual, which has a separate section named "Read-Only > Buffers". If you read it when you started working with read-only > buffers, you'd have found the inhibit-read-only variable described > there. Not everthing but at least the minimum level for the description to be useful in a practical sense. Particularly when neither with-help-window= =20 nor help-buffer ever mention that the buffers are read only. If one does not presuppose that the developer knows that the buffer is read only, there is practically no way this figure out using the self documentation. =20 =20 Whilst it is claimed that Emacs is a self-documenting real-time display edi= tor, it hardly ever words that way in practice. =20 > Our recommendation is to read the relevant parts of the ELisp manual > whenever you need for the first time work with a specific aspect of > Emacs Lisp. A decent programmer should be capable of extracting some useful information on using a function directly from its self documenting docstring. Otherwis= e the self documentation is quite pointless from the practical point of view.= =20 Merely saying that this does THIS and that does THAT is certainly deficient= =20 in many ways. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:48:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Kangas Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, heimeborgia@protonmail.com Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946164397512 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:48:01 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 14:47:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35594 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgR9D-0001x4-2o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:47:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40174) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgR9A-0001wp-O0; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:47:17 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgR8z-0008Jh-Nu; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:47:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Y5oq/GeVo417GZAwXoy5UVCqa4n/qFfTODNcUPShoC4=; b=lhl25M/OZ2gx mAsuXl8ll3MTtct5dCCXlulsQ/JOGswstDxYAFkLjw6U+aOJEEYwtrLMEQQZmPBHrTHqD/ADg0eBS KDAMUfRs1OrDxm/pOT3huZmhEw18Z/mhlVBMos4FpxRWLq2p5ZdZ5ToJaTuALZxB5+SfDB3sNaQRl HEyxwYvJnTxt9knD/o0ntR3J831TPRrztRfJIzTNHy88ZSZxEantvVAbxpWG/9ixu0TZSUzm7JLdP 5bPv7g+0uWFfP7b0dEQGOaqrLAxZcqjHrKc84taiSi6+Vod/gcbKV4vPUA6DrjX8FhLv5A7agfp2a dfpK9d0M97f7xhQg4cGJLw==; Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 17:46:53 +0300 Message-Id: <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:04:31 -0700) References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 65913 wontfix close 65913 thanks > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:04:31 -0700 > Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > I disagree. The use of inhibit-read-only is an implementation detail > > of with-help-window (and of many other functions in Emacs); mentioning > > it in the doc string will IMO have no useful purpose. > > > > The doc string of "C-x C-q" (read-only-mode) does mention > > inhibit-read-only, which is I think a much more reasonable place for a > > reference to that variable. > > > > Stefan, WDYT? > > I tend to agree with you. OK, so I'm closing this bug. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:53:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Stefan Kangas Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946167268323 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:53:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 14:52:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35610 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRDq-0002AA-FB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:52:06 -0400 Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.25]:55999) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRDo-00029h-O3 for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:52:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694616709; x=1694875909; bh=yfekfMuU4quSITESuMzKw6wyHOBgAL5OaKRLKJE3mBA=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=C9aXjEpd6TBtzAv8VpDGmYWKeLUa3ygN7iCnI4iXQeMtcw+eZnRkq+uefhudjqTxF xHcEiKDPn0nu89qKwqOS2CGx4CKOqAHMxYI3zk5fX1oC05hscF2XoQo3uduHt7cycc LwQN3czc+jApAb6tuCvXrjpmxoBZi/WeZQstJf+wzA5eNyoKBMpWpB39uu8ExAS23U 7SMTCgHrI1Ofl6/EDaEW01PwBZGV7qV7MLo4K4i7efZy83/wUer4zhtYLVvlpl3HiW SjLXZD6jd0Ve0p7jucfZIwyOJr1fbWT8/oS/W8k0grk/umVtFYXrJD/mpIxqQts7z6 MHPS+U+HirDXw== Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:51:30 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: <04_YeulwxttSgx-ucr-VfmWTxKH81JSzyGT-sOTCmIoygmC3J7tNUFEY6pzA1O53iwhjtDqN88gX6pkBNR7e7b_kCefsrYMoIGPKJKt99rM=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 2:04 AM, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org writes: >=20 > > I disagree. The use of inhibit-read-only is an implementation detail > > of with-help-window (and of many other functions in Emacs); mentioning > > it in the doc string will IMO have no useful purpose. > >=20 > > The doc string of "C-x C-q" (read-only-mode) does mention > > inhibit-read-only, which is I think a much more reasonable place for a > > reference to that variable. > >=20 > > Stefan, WDYT? >=20 >=20 > I tend to agree with you. Stefan, is this to say that for you it is good that there is no way to figure out that there is no requirement to reset buffer-read-only=20 from the self documentation ? And that it is even unnecessary to state that the duffer is read only by going through the different=20 docstrings. Such conclusions is seriously deficient with little regard to how much time developers waste in working with the language. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946168748577 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 14:54:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35624 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRGE-0002EG-HH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:54:34 -0400 Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.25]:47585) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRGC-0002E2-5W for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:54:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694616857; x=1694876057; bh=ilxvRnxSDTUgbSiD+KSjaO/ahKnXWJWje8ti/Xta14A=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=aJ+GgzYreVRVuWKb2xzBUeHU01c5wm1zc3Fxlah8lp/XDZINDycU99fNu12AbyAcA b5MmSPmpO4mgNqpy1ulQktga8rfonoZJZuoB9VrWoqU18x2Tp1bMHERH6XcWEGm5Lg oNlIa9990ERNHvbF57tnM8ZzI1woqSqJCBiwAiqgVhvutTGQND9uDsr6vXSYbXZKgM FSorYD5cHFsCzwBndBDNtZ73XAirrmZ9Qqzs4wUwGiSNXW7hCYotL3YFqO28H83qSM EaO6mehVXEYTXayNC8OBAGnBywnKvVAr1DXRfsDuwTEV0RsfWb8LZyvjqS1PTEiGdm Zl3LQPZgMn1fA== Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:54:04 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 2:46 AM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: > tags 65913 wontfix > close 65913 > thanks >=20 > > From: Stefan Kangas stefankangas@gmail.com > > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:04:31 -0700 > > Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > >=20 > > Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org writes: > >=20 > > > I disagree. The use of inhibit-read-only is an implementation detail > > > of with-help-window (and of many other functions in Emacs); mentionin= g > > > it in the doc string will IMO have no useful purpose. > > >=20 > > > The doc string of "C-x C-q" (read-only-mode) does mention > > > inhibit-read-only, which is I think a much more reasonable place for = a > > > reference to that variable. > > >=20 > > > Stefan, WDYT? > >=20 > > I tend to agree with you. >=20 >=20 > OK, so I'm closing this bug. Congratulations for the disregard ! A disease that makes only the the opinion of maintainers relevant rather than those using it. A Total Disaster. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:15:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Heime Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169461810220885 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:15:03 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 15:15:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35654 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRa1-0005Qa-Oy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:15:02 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]:52551) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRZv-0005QJ-Sf for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:15:00 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2bfbbd55158so12022561fa.1 for <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694618085; x=1695222885; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=S7GNPW6c47dm55JiYroegfH+7k63UK1C4ZN9eTheijo=; b=P6vu1ucE0ztugE2WvBrvPXfNQpLHWfpS4uI3WFwbHs2Jk0SASeQtJIijIOf09JTMAU n7uzzFDk5cFOGromLMJRrpSeGu8tD1R6NaI8m0yNq/qAOLKcVuQ5DFFB8KhRJ7NERM/x Vfc9SudEuC9st4z5RsZVIC1vJJPJtgXk/PHxDDdgKinsnzuAtL7+cksK+6Gpu86piaOP QjO4sS7NLKqDh4BjEX71kvx4d9gXxaWBYxIRFE0DDTPomcK+uO0Una4IBUT6mG+rh0Ze EP/l33k2nb9Ot0hbW0H1CcHXvlu9VrKVsM+Y3iMC9lU1zmah5EepONTnrhYlpNk/hgRW Z7/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694618085; x=1695222885; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=S7GNPW6c47dm55JiYroegfH+7k63UK1C4ZN9eTheijo=; b=Z8F8+QQZOjS/8ZLP3Y/xcFckYKskREf4aPEVFIG1YslqOUOkzdU86lcMiw1PZwTK5K Ts0Wz8daPIZPT6Rk5DCl4T5+Ii6KESZYGT/V6yi1C42nsiStSgmOG5AFhFoR3L38FljX OTD9AcCWMuTS+yC58dpoRSgkTMGSUq/KJNkbUqRkpT5tAoB6mIxv7CF4pGgf6V0rSgPB mQVSTgkvggSgUvuLwtXDf81v7Up//KIRdcF0KwHLAFTvYlsaT5Vb4WKOqpET4e6jshhO 97GE3rT3Nxv7CLkbhHLuuuLC7p/isImCnBJNnl4MvDPRZXjGnGcMPBSrL9jjHcbqp7cO /Brw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx1sU8eLZE6nMO+3/zgtwBoQHVZ4tPxsuJdwwjkrIIQY16701d0 jvjjmpMA8BQpG5CDqpXhG2Gsqhkb/3Vt/E5/gbU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHBUmHNYVQUZLteaMXUlvjeXFm49GHsubnReqQFSwnGKHNDHKgFsAP/zQvvFf6mV2hKFJDGFpYH+FNdlgCjd6g= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a318:0:b0:2bd:1000:431d with SMTP id l24-20020a2ea318000000b002bd1000431dmr2279643lje.10.1694618084562; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:14:44 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <04_YeulwxttSgx-ucr-VfmWTxKH81JSzyGT-sOTCmIoygmC3J7tNUFEY6pzA1O53iwhjtDqN88gX6pkBNR7e7b_kCefsrYMoIGPKJKt99rM=@protonmail.com> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <04_YeulwxttSgx-ucr-VfmWTxKH81JSzyGT-sOTCmIoygmC3J7tNUFEY6pzA1O53iwhjtDqN88gX6pkBNR7e7b_kCefsrYMoIGPKJKt99rM=@protonmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:14:44 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Heime writes: > Stefan, is this to say that for you it is good that there is no way > to figure out that there is no requirement to reset buffer-read-only > from the self documentation ? And that it is even unnecessary to > state that the duffer is read only by going through the different > docstrings. Such conclusions is seriously deficient with little regard > to how much time developers waste in working with the language. No, I just don't see why anyone would assume that you would have to mess around with buffer-read-only, given that the manual (for example) says: -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-or-name body... This macro evaluates BODY like =E2=80=98with-output-to-temp-buffer=E2= =80=99 (*note Temporary Displays::), inserting any output produced by its forms into a buffer specified by BUFFER-OR-NAME, which can be a buffer or the name of a buffer. The docstring also seems pretty clear to me. Nothing leads me to think that I can't just (with-help-window "*foo*" (insert "bar")) as indeed I can. And help mode is read-only so that part is clear too. I understand that this aspect confused you, but we can't add every possible confusion to the ELisp manual and/or docstrings. They would end up being much too long, which would also "waste time". Therefore, we have to focus on clarifying aspects that are confusing to many. Is this an exact science? Not really, quite the contrary. The purpose of these discussions is precisely to make better decisions in cases such as these. In this case, Eli asked for my opinion, so I gave mine. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Heime , Eli Zaretskii Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169461849121509 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 15:21:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35661 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRgI-0005ar-Q5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:21:31 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]:61914) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRgH-0005ad-2W for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:21:30 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5007616b756so11385205e87.3 for <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:21:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694618477; x=1695223277; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kEQiXPJpED7eDVw1Ao8sSAIo7IUw7PohGSgUET9o5bI=; b=foX0dqBLo57Xz87dPOtTBYBQoUXqMsg5c5lrFJnPNaIZl6vW47ZVWG8VVzQGDCdn6F XVWKt8zaIMNSP4CSBpC/J8P83I1bKkAvnwXqdCTAoflFcOdpIwr4vxhn3+UHiHBR1Dwu 6tRsFE5HaDNT71axF2VYzEr0jjwEHWeEV2qOUYiqgICyiP7Of/K3Wgdz5WYVJK4AytT8 7zpd2753ehR2qoIUNx6TFzPQzx9fSSkLnQHb/tmkL3aaygBBuOnzdrmAzJvEEMIaPxXf b2UBDlMH3NaT/TJgcdq9utvX00DPBUIJz7b5xvfQFdMTQ4uKqo9qBUtu+P78UdeTsb2o OXxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694618477; x=1695223277; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kEQiXPJpED7eDVw1Ao8sSAIo7IUw7PohGSgUET9o5bI=; b=WBKyWM34pOXJQiwGh180CIwslWPDCE2gIgKzPLjCpLw8SyWJaBDZv+krychgehZ8lK Sxw9RVqCNsG0BYqZQFjhOhL1K6VBxAi2OCeci5VVOrKRVb+hOg6X4kr9xuvN878/FNMM jK0S4ndEO1z/PkDKY/MxxJVTfIvl3bZ9WTuFl54/xVW8/6T9OeHly01kd5Ulcp3oAyWR rWjhgMwvh0TgbQ/o9aX8UUUma7WTE64F8Rjpee00Cru80rrWWOgraZavOYS9QuQFMeLK Wgm/5n56jE3lKJBcBVA8QboeG6b71emYlO2tPh/yScmyFmpwksU97iSbQ+2uLeQEH2rb t8Fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwgJXoCE8eIvYm6Yz1j0MIQoRnyjLhzzw9i327m2G8cWsd87CJQ j5GbMQcD0H94WI+hr9nK6idnVxybqWiXc3H5Ia4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IETip3BWcbiPxsjBbp+AzE5AdhJApuJEs/Ws8ciD93rcnRWa3WAbhS79LmUGaBEcLn4gU9lkwV9qYwseofc+kg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9154:0:b0:2bc:efa4:2c32 with SMTP id q20-20020a2e9154000000b002bcefa42c32mr2503001ljg.37.1694618477425; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:21:16 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:21:16 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Heime writes: > Congratulations for the disregard ! A disease that makes only the > the opinion of maintainers relevant rather than those using it. > A Total Disaster. I see that you're disappointed. It might not look that way, but we always try, to the best of our abilities, to listen and take arguments into account. We actually almost always add some type of clarification when asked to by users. But in a small minority of cases, we don't. Please consider our situation too: we have tons of bugs on our table, and they do have to be decided upon by someone. Sometimes, there are judgement calls to be made, and as much as we want to, we can't make everyone happy. Perhaps you can see the wisdom in at least some of the choices we make, even if you disagree with others. Thanks again for taking the trouble to report this bug, and feel free to report other issues in the future. We appreciate the help. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Stefan Kangas Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169461927522833 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 15:34:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35693 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRsx-0005wD-6o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:34:35 -0400 Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.25]:61987) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRsu-0005vw-Qf for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:34:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694619260; x=1694878460; bh=I68+1UfF82ASu6x7BUENEGCNqaaYeN6+67MKkM+Yt5Y=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=tEnvHUMAwwfF4lV3r83fh0H0G6BeOE6Q2HgsWQ6gZvpRHoZTzURJKamQeF665+4H1 1NWcUB4UBbjAXNk/sCeFsiB1Ijk85LhuTl329OUhG/4qS9+Cr7GPA+0pdpXC6lE5Ep b1AwaS2GsziOSRkr78/8UEZO0YMY7WqemyKbjgm4LdD/OhvWlaHY5Y1hjJ/8piPUd6 FNwd4GIgdgneGfq2DjsaXI1hzlcDecQpdSRjzW3FBYXt3a2icJvdHApxGlNSm100lw N9g7WR31omkeF0gKblEcOA9vsHgCjls9YPk90svk8j3/m9TRHczeitXUTHPMx3ttCf hog0T5dSqxNZg== Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:34:08 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <04_YeulwxttSgx-ucr-VfmWTxKH81JSzyGT-sOTCmIoygmC3J7tNUFEY6pzA1O53iwhjtDqN88gX6pkBNR7e7b_kCefsrYMoIGPKJKt99rM=@protonmail.com> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 3:14 AM, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com writes: >=20 > > Stefan, is this to say that for you it is good that there is no way > > to figure out that there is no requirement to reset buffer-read-only > > from the self documentation ? And that it is even unnecessary to > > state that the duffer is read only by going through the different > > docstrings. Such conclusions is seriously deficient with little regard > > to how much time developers waste in working with the language. >=20 >=20 > No, I just don't see why anyone would assume that you would have to mess > around with buffer-read-only, given that the manual (for example) says: >=20 > -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-or-name body... > This macro evaluates BODY like =E2=80=98with-output-to-temp-buffer= =E2=80=99 (*note > Temporary Displays::), inserting any output produced by its forms > into a buffer specified by BUFFER-OR-NAME, which can be a buffer or > the name of a buffer. >=20 > The docstring also seems pretty clear to me. Nothing leads me to think > that I can't just >=20 > (with-help-window "foo" > (insert "bar")) >=20 > as indeed I can. And help mode is read-only so that part is clear too. >=20 > I understand that this aspect confused you, but we can't add every > possible confusion to the ELisp manual and/or docstrings. They would > end up being much too long, which would also "waste time". Therefore, > we have to focus on clarifying aspects that are confusing to many. >=20 > Is this an exact science? Not really, quite the contrary. The purpose > of these discussions is precisely to make better decisions in cases such > as these. In this case, Eli asked for my opinion, so I gave mine. There is no problem giving your opinion. What I contest is that most of th= e=20 opinions are by those who actually know to much, rather than for those who= =20 know too little. I am of the School of Thought that this should change bec= ause more information is better than less in many cases. =20 The documentation is usually of much more practical value than the docstrin= gs. I cannot see the harm if after the general docstring description there is 1. A corollary on some additional things that add value from the practical = point oy view. 2. A reference to the relevant section of the manual that would be importan= t to read about. The strain is currently put on the developer to find the way through the ju= ngle. Most people find the wolf waiting for them. This is the opinion from someone wh= o knows too little. There are many like me. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:52:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Heime Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169462031124809 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:52:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 15:51:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35724 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgS9e-0006S5-Vj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:51:51 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]:61542) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgS9b-0006Rq-Us for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:51:49 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-502a25ab777so8491331e87.2 for <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:51:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694620296; x=1695225096; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DKtUSubETTsDHsrnbCJa9TLHcDZcllspXok+4pXVI7g=; b=LdmG/0JxSh7NmGbv5h9/YwWitMYQPwsbzzQfJCyS+WAZzThgiPmWAr7/CXAb2hTNHX ohzD7Y256CwG0UIAjtwb7Q5LwmO2vaOKGf5X3SdCpekhLuluW8eAoCDqhxztnK9O4LLd Grqfa3vLqlJTHIFXSe/QWZZH7p3V5CjxwvihRmOtXtNJOxcagG1/exiJyDtiqtacNXre hsua9+Ix/xnVLPe8mKEOCjgHEFLL8Y+EeYYCJc6gr49AOV27w3A1NzbgOu/19FEUWDdS c/xG9Q1LGcITChIiRYkC6nWDEvQC5ASet1JdZr6vX9oYSqJqYOHwIzduK+uvwfqEql8w a4GA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694620296; x=1695225096; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DKtUSubETTsDHsrnbCJa9TLHcDZcllspXok+4pXVI7g=; b=VwkWyw03s0dn9cP9pR239Qiu57Bn9kTMYAdrI3UppiFtREnzUxgxaY3k3YDdvd6FmX LZ4o44kM7iI6Y+L7ntw+VQvPiz/1CzLwhw3uvF4mPm7Y0n3WGjP5ZCd5HZ77mM2N3uOo yqKo9iS3BG7OfbbPnR+aWtyfYTwY+YayAiz3KvMKquQZhFJDqHA5xVsyacV6NbE/NWPM mCrnWAuCF1HlPShR0szSCooO6poBU2mPbz0C6Jg0Wh4bgjgC8RPYwTAEggrzRiUklcjN NMNBUc59ag9sxd/RNFq0Du4EEJuYwxTtNyEsgcM06MPY2pkfz9a00KCgRc1CyYZU65C3 mFTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxLbbjNOzSIquL1H3ek5ByfUh+2TLI2ns1UOccP9y9g4ZgIfcz3 ecaZ1AuRAKDn3MWh5q4FJd8H2kGtJxN/L1o9GhY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHbVeIo/mkjtw8h6NhnRhWa9egCj0uaFCLmBaTUFCJ0bmqbQ4ZFgki8YLPAUiuNSWK/uSd5Z0SeWqW2WJNWt1Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1151:b0:4f8:74b5:b4ec with SMTP id m17-20020a056512115100b004f874b5b4ecmr2715834lfg.41.1694620290692; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:51:30 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <04_YeulwxttSgx-ucr-VfmWTxKH81JSzyGT-sOTCmIoygmC3J7tNUFEY6pzA1O53iwhjtDqN88gX6pkBNR7e7b_kCefsrYMoIGPKJKt99rM=@protonmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 08:51:30 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Heime writes: > I cannot see the harm if after the general docstring description there > is > > 1. A corollary on some additional things that add value from the > practical point oy view. I basically agree, but the details on how to do it have to be worked out in each case individually. > 2. A reference to the relevant section of the manual that would be > important to read about. Agreed. See Bug#60587 where a more general feature like this is being worked on. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 16:25:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Stefan Kangas Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946222995840 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 16:25:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 16:24:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35783 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgSfj-0001W7-6T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 12:24:59 -0400 Received: from mail-40140.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.140]:50089) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgSfg-0001Vt-V9 for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 12:24:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694622283; x=1694881483; bh=MySQbNIM2AWz+I+FaoH/P6Aofhm3Tn3Rfk9LvC90ilY=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=Gf5LSFyefDxC035Y6665gjlDwoujEvXdjG9jWOyvbGctnCALm+gAOZfbcZb4yJvjh P7nK8HcSxDU82ttUWNfGFaysE82CwhMX781fb+in6AG8isyX6+v9MHZ/0Cp8n6ufN4 QdM2k6ScbK3trkdUPa0GZiaFt5fbAZmSTEHclHTMyn4Kgdc9aPMS9LA9wfdFhawK4O N+h61fqwpWwCeU13gR4/2dn7dc7agZkRgHRS4VUrQ2C9hG9JEkbRcGvA4YeGP1yHdh NuSkI3YAkoYbfyZ/QwsFT1qFOjce2IO3OS56F8fkmJ0rWpr7cSo1Wmh2V42MnI53xi OHJOPOu33F5EA== Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 16:24:23 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <04_YeulwxttSgx-ucr-VfmWTxKH81JSzyGT-sOTCmIoygmC3J7tNUFEY6pzA1O53iwhjtDqN88gX6pkBNR7e7b_kCefsrYMoIGPKJKt99rM=@protonmail.com> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 3:51 AM, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com writes: >=20 > > I cannot see the harm if after the general docstring description there > > is > >=20 > > 1. A corollary on some additional things that add value from the > > practical point oy view. >=20 >=20 > I basically agree, but the details on how to do it have to be worked out > in each case individually. Right Right =20 > > 2. A reference to the relevant section of the manual that would be > > important to read about. >=20 >=20 > Agreed. See Bug#60587 where a more general feature like this is being > worked on. Glad to know that some of the deliberations are recognised. I usually take= =20 the bother even at the risk of some antagonisms. Whenever you want perspec= tive from someone who knows too little, I am available. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Heime Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169463183620046 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:04:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 19:03:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36040 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgV9X-0005DG-LX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:03:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49564) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgV9S-0005Cx-2X for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:03:53 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgV9G-0006xw-Ca; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:03:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=0bA09r4IADdQ8JQBo6NsAWRWMOdHEANM+Mv/OkzZwgk=; b=jp0+aVwwoWKu 9tpPLRJp/CjDLHZxaNotYCzQNFc83JBPeVrT4I+j8y3TH87hmlSIe3sfo9cJKW82xG3Qg1yFdkzRa revhr7PW6V9Gq/yjfeAp7a7ijMoIngkA4JlcG4K7CPOVr7Ze4vEBeXkVm2YHMGGjII59LUr+BdSUV Kf7Tjlhewg/8mybmfCGOQhyPaOBgix2yCCw3aE0myYOV2uKBvuNaNRjfezD7ao41RIRcYOdKqLBFP RASvqh6Mox3z00Kjj07HED66yajn/fgr/TyqWtHs2MtKfZ91KXorG6IIrbnwWPm8GWH0xMc28Suvp qMAgguZI+RZNFjxCJT4qFg==; Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 22:03:25 +0300 Message-Id: <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Heime on Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:54:04 +0000) References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:54:04 +0000 > From: Heime > Cc: Stefan Kangas , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > Stefan, WDYT? > > > > > > I tend to agree with you. > > > > > > OK, so I'm closing this bug. > > Congratulations for the disregard ! A disease that makes only the > the opinion of maintainers relevant rather than those using it. > A Total Disaster. Please don't be unfair. Your opinions were heard and considered. They were not rejected because they are irrelevant or for any other such reason. We do not have to agree with everything you say, especially after we explain why the doc string of that particular function is not the right place to mention inhibit-read-only. Other doc strings, which are a better place, do mention it. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, Heime , stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169463264721312 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:18:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 19:17:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36065 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgVMd-0005Xf-7E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:17:27 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:11909) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgVMO-0005XB-EA for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:17:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1694632620; x=1694891820; bh=zbom3DLy6IwA3jgvs6j0DmdVwYQPbhWp+5CnOnRsSgQ=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=ChcRnr9CU2KyGB3Cf1Kcz8LwFxW8ksnPOhiu0i8tQlpvZjT8US7aQKDRqAhCJAmyt exVyYb7ADyQ/7xlieVSAgmJHAtWyE4qtUoARRSh/XAACKSXw+2eK2c0/6ChR8sOSsB YLLOogAJWbM6fn9OdkX+LXDuaiCd2Fh8Jn2MwFs/k2bQTDIpScFL2JhKUGUFxqQcgT ano24NsifUu4DSgOPlQLZSldziFFkvv8zJ8CwnC1qVn4sZnfzOt3KZpfneHwaAMiYh aSqn9lxUpLg5iuSwG0/R9BqIuKn1HO37x0EGqYcTREtSCA0GNWdHXN14jkc4ts28c1 OjvMoC+IoVYUg== Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:16:52 +0000 From: uzibalqa Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 7:03 AM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: > > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:54:04 +0000 > > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com > > Cc: Stefan Kangas stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > >=20 > > > > > Stefan, WDYT? > > > >=20 > > > > I tend to agree with you. > > >=20 > > > OK, so I'm closing this bug. > >=20 > > Congratulations for the disregard ! A disease that makes only the > > the opinion of maintainers relevant rather than those using it. > > A Total Disaster. >=20 >=20 > Please don't be unfair. Your opinions were heard and considered. > They were not rejected because they are irrelevant or for any other > such reason. We do not have to agree with everything you say, > especially after we explain why the doc string of that particular > function is not the right place to mention inhibit-read-only. Other > doc strings, which are a better place, do mention it. The purpose of the docstring should be expanded. And if using the manual is required, please provide that information from the self documentation. I disagree with the notion that working with emacs should be hard. With most people I communicate with, it is generally agreed that using the language is hard. It is the solution that I disagree with. Because the solution that I am usually given is to endure the time it takes for everyon= e=20 to learn it. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 04:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: uzibalqa Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, heimeborgia@protonmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946672491130 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 04:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 04:54:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36473 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgeMi-0000IA-Ut for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 00:54:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48942) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgeMd-0000Hb-2F for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 00:54:06 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgeMP-0006PK-Rs; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 00:53:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=KGNpnjJ//rY9zX938W3QQxr+FQbuosj4xgnrqOCmMlE=; b=pXfMAkp+0v7f AMPRhMT8H9GtABvZunk/e7iBHfCXaHUQgYCc2aznzL2k1oomOfiWTaVjg50HQmzTyw18h7AVAtZOr qkPV9FDR/zkSgijsJmRhbpCwl/pFXjcqPJguKLS/X6eRKjKCDbJCuVu2IjxqkfD7TT9/8M2qtvOas daOVbGg52hv8Jix/D3OgHZR+jGSXIQcMUdckdd/p7/mW9wca6yCmmjLZFe/soejhUhOlJP3AJ/0YE 7dS0XAKlelbp46EP5YDh2SPvwo2kU5g+g123Xpwsj4YzlT9iaXm17jwEw4DattHXvJ563UachpKzU cT4kDnfG5of8KnzuHCF0ew==; Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:53:36 +0300 Message-Id: <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from uzibalqa on Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:16:52 +0000) References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:16:52 +0000 > From: uzibalqa > Cc: Heime , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > > The purpose of the docstring should be expanded. And if using the manual > is required, please provide that information from the self documentation. We do that when needed, but not in this case. There's no reason to mention inhibit-read-only when we document with-help-window, because with-help-window is not about read-only buffers. > I disagree with the notion that working with emacs should be hard. So do we. But this issue has nothing to do with how hard it is to work with Emacs. You simply looked for the information you were after in the wrong place, when the right place should have been pretty obvious for someone who writes Lisp programs: the ELisp manual. > With most people I communicate with, it is generally agreed that > using the language is hard. It is the solution that I disagree > with. Because the solution that I am usually given is to endure the > time it takes for everyone to learn it. The solution you were suggested was to look for information about read-only buffers where read-only buffers are described, either in the ELisp manual or in the doc string of the command which toggles the read-only state of the buffer. In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where that subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. Consulting the documentation is one of the first lessons that each Emacs user learns, and resisting that lesson is not recommended. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: uzibalqa , stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169468808617663 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 10:41:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37755 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjmo-0004ap-EB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:41:26 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:50641) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjmm-0004ab-2S for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:41:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694688071; x=1694947271; bh=Do+hBzguBRGjaI8p2uNrNTeVzf6U/8Nai1SPxZnkXJw=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=Oz5uu/oOsQC7p+PUejAyHTlbjHKnVagjiFmI6g7StgRa+c1sTqh6iaXftFsmL7pnb eEloEsxtEAR/MZAh+3hc+CMUMfxp9z6tV/yWAHUT38VtdpmCg9lk4Nv0ZMM+uPpBiS mpC0fvPAf0fE/FF8hF5ACwhnuZdU/PSb9649s/cOJ2M9/bPSb0WbgB30tas2xFXvHE d5spKEc1ciNCAQLmlYUWgV4qTlmJTc/JC6U+0qeBoBD/1bCNC4Vame5zxdRld46sSq NSSCA4odXxcliYmugi5JP0QtAlOLy1XjvERHdM24aOOvT+V9Z6VM3pzcGZvZeOuk9U yVtpEHBMWaECw== Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:41:06 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 4:53 PM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: > > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:16:52 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankang= as@gmail.com > >=20 > > The purpose of the docstring should be expanded. And if using the manua= l > > is required, please provide that information from the self documentatio= n. >=20 >=20 > We do that when needed, but not in this case. There's no reason to > mention inhibit-read-only when we document with-help-window, because > with-help-window is not about read-only buffers. >=20 > > I disagree with the notion that working with emacs should be hard. >=20 >=20 > So do we. But this issue has nothing to do with how hard it is to > work with Emacs. You simply looked for the information you were after > in the wrong place, when the right place should have been pretty > obvious for someone who writes Lisp programs: the ELisp manual. Stefan mentioned a project to have the docstring communicate with the manua= l so that finding the information will not be too laborious. =20 > > With most people I communicate with, it is generally agreed that > > using the language is hard. It is the solution that I disagree > > with. Because the solution that I am usually given is to endure the > > time it takes for everyone to learn it. >=20 >=20 > The solution you were suggested was to look for information about > read-only buffers where read-only buffers are described, either in the > ELisp manual or in the doc string of the command which toggles the > read-only state of the buffer. The difficulty is that while something is discussion theoretically, the actual function gives some conveniences that might not be so apparent. As was the case for with-help-window. Once such conveniences are understood, things are good. =20 > In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string > that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where that > subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that > everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. Consulting the > documentation is one of the first lessons that each Emacs user learns, > and resisting that lesson is not recommended. There could be some manual or metadata that could provide rapid search and association capabilities to find relevant information and avoid much manual labour. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:52:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Heime Cc: uzibalqa@proton.me, stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946958798327 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:52:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 12:51:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37928 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgloV-0002AF-0p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:51:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54330) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgloS-0002A0-Qm for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:51:17 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgloG-0003Au-6n; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 08:51:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=UBJ3uaR0ZuoCVHzKq+OiHdfW9fu6SgbTtchk7ZaKsKs=; b=c9q9vq9pY717 hIO+1wNqXVB4QVU3hXhzM89Et62l2azg+yPlY1Nkq2tgeU4jGHxWdSXIlc4R5yuFHXr98czD151s3 my/YTrgvDj3YRcaS6BJ45R8nc5fkQIiCVVsPvDn15lZM2hJxNR1FwkJuKC+FUbJt3nlCCBMiq3UR8 IOHlnwjmoyb4+kE1G/iPV8NgnHh9Nrg3gL+WFHClO7SdNfW850wUJFCuLkj857+IDyqVZmTafRX7P qGJXXRyn5snGMhfsiBORSfiMhIXhljtUP9F9TbaPiO3YTx818085Rtdp/zAQlse6yF8++/ofshdQl cH82MnNyyFJi/jd58TIhFw==; Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:50:45 +0300 Message-Id: <83y1h8lxzu.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Heime on Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:41:06 +0000) References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:41:06 +0000 > From: Heime > Cc: uzibalqa , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > > > So do we. But this issue has nothing to do with how hard it is to > > work with Emacs. You simply looked for the information you were after > > in the wrong place, when the right place should have been pretty > > obvious for someone who writes Lisp programs: the ELisp manual. > > Stefan mentioned a project to have the docstring communicate with the manual > so that finding the information will not be too laborious. That's an existing feature, we use it when appropriate. > > In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string > > that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where that > > subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that > > everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. Consulting the > > documentation is one of the first lessons that each Emacs user learns, > > and resisting that lesson is not recommended. > > There could be some manual or metadata that could provide rapid search > and association capabilities to find relevant information and avoid much > manual labour. We have commands for that: "M-x apropos", Info-index, and others. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 13:19:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: uzibalqa@proton.me, stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169469749821114 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 13:19:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 13:18:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37980 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgmEc-0005UU-5u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:18:18 -0400 Received: from mail-40132.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.132]:47985) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgmEX-0005UD-Ao for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 09:18:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694697480; x=1694956680; bh=DLDuLllRrzcqzeqURXHaSbbyATrw8AWpjn1nKbVuAQs=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=QZEePa0+rZlchaU5WdblnA0i7bSYyp5fYDzJ00tr6fk6dQx1UAQITFdXazLlQ3RFT q5TgtIHGbzSHYfOM6AuvqH9Z4gHs5gVOwovPLTMGNK0b9pXkNtQKGexIX7S28d8Lqi 3x3GSt1aQAHwlzMZSNLpW6Z3zIoZi14ESbDpUmXl63gHLfzqWl8hXm5zeuvcSn11SR q0f/fGSx6wA05iVpGAEJo85r+c3GIGkGyQ/Md9TZOG540RKNEYtXmsb9bGm5nDE6eJ d/QvskSV+KfnEt+6xje1JEkGAxUxtnAcQf/DraOr+OtaYZ/Hk4/zpqLen7qLM24BBs fR7/JXTUbVl9g== Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 13:17:43 +0000 From: Heime Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83y1h8lxzu.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> <83y1h8lxzu.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, September 15th, 2023 at 12:50 AM, Eli Zaretskii w= rote: > > Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:41:06 +0000 > > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com > > Cc: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gm= ail.com > >=20 > > > So do we. But this issue has nothing to do with how hard it is to > > > work with Emacs. You simply looked for the information you were after > > > in the wrong place, when the right place should have been pretty > > > obvious for someone who writes Lisp programs: the ELisp manual. > >=20 > > Stefan mentioned a project to have the docstring communicate with the m= anual > > so that finding the information will not be too laborious. >=20 >=20 > That's an existing feature, we use it when appropriate. >=20 > > > In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string > > > that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where tha= t > > > subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that > > > everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. Consulting the > > > documentation is one of the first lessons that each Emacs user learns= , > > > and resisting that lesson is not recommended. > >=20 > > There could be some manual or metadata that could provide rapid search > > and association capabilities to find relevant information and avoid muc= h > > manual labour. >=20 > We have commands for that: "M-x apropos", Info-index, and others. Many thanks, shall look into this and see how far that gets me. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Eli Zaretskii , uzibalqa Cc: "65913@debbugs.gnu.org" <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>, "heimeborgia@protonmail.com" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169470745328824 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:05:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 16:04:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40938 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgopB-0007Up-6b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:04:13 -0400 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:38298) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgop6-0007Uc-4C for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 282afa3f-82d5-45ab-1a7a-08dbb53c333b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2023 16:03:56.4988 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JwaXs9DFzUmVlm/MWj04M+/uV/s2n3dDji9GswFbS/RBwS6A6kE0zAwD6g3L1hkpJILndi2zLNvrjjndZEz8Mg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN0PR10MB5207 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.267,Aquarius:18.0.980,Hydra:6.0.601,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-09-14_09,2023-09-14_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2309140139 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Hpd6zTHQwpOu0ZlxNFnu5-ZSDAYsodYg X-Proofpoint-GUID: Hpd6zTHQwpOu0ZlxNFnu5-ZSDAYsodYg X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string > that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where that > subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that > everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. Amen. This is a common request from users, who sometimes expect a complete answer to their question - aimed at their particular immediate context/problem - or a complete understanding of something, to be right in front of them, at the first page or help msg they encounter. And they want it to be aimed at their particular level of background understanding. It's an individualistic, "Gimme, gimme, gimme, me!" approach, naively ignoring the fact that whatever help they hope to find will likely aim to also help others, with different backgrounds, questions, contexts, problems. I'm guessing this can also come partly from a frustration from _searching_ as the main - or even the only - navigation users employ. Search can be very good, or very bad. Some experience/knowledge are needed to search effectively, as well as good search tools. Emacs has good search tools. The first thing users should learn is how to Ask Emacs. The help commands of course, and later even how to ask using Lisp etc. A just-what-I-need-right-here-right-now expectation is a problem for help/documentation in general, but especially so nowadays, when it's no longer the case (if it ever was) that readers start at the start of a book and read sequentially. Now, more than ever, "Every Page Is Page One". https://everypageispageone.com/ Readers arrive at a URL by googling or following a link from somewhere. Off the web, inside Emacs, they arrive at an Info node or a *Help* description directly. The solution to the "problem" is for every "page" to provide relevant links to other pages/topics. Every one. That way, wherever you start you can pretty much follow the paths you want, to get the info you need. It's not a simple problem with a trivial solution. Deciding what goes into a given "page"/topic, and which other topics to link to, is a judgment call - or more correctly lots of judgment calls. And that means that even with the "best" design, for some set of targeted readers/users, some will be frustrated. (Even deciding what the targeted set of readers should be is non-trivial and involves compromises.) A good model of a generally helpful doc system is Wikipedia. Emacs help and doc are pretty darn good. This is largely because Emacs maintainers - first RMS and now Eli, in particular - have long been hugely interested in the help/doc - self-documenting - feature/aspect of Emacs. Emacs didn't exactly invent self-documenting, perhaps, but it nearly did so. > Consulting the documentation is one of the > first lessons that each Emacs user learns, > and resisting that lesson is not recommended. Agreed. There's no excuse for not dipping into the manuals. Or for not taking advantage of other sources: tutorials, videos Q&A venues, etc. Different users learn differently, of course. That said, more links from *Help* to manuals could help, I think. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:16:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Drew Adams Cc: uzibalqa@proton.me, heimeborgia@protonmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169470813529940 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:16:01 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 16:15:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40958 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgp0A-0007mq-HE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:15:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54154) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgp07-0007mc-0q for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:15:33 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgozv-0004hP-1U; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:15:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=7+c8zLQS8fhBnXm5neL3bVHiMJUC2EiGPcmlufqmEcM=; b=F7dsbEbBCGxz DBJ6P1TAhlRVveB7VHYR8BoKa93h4YwwZZCjIdAvz6S2IMQtZnWSlIBjVygUvulazBRrsiacQDf0I 5RgmPrjlkStHwlE9SteETJK7FqrGDjcxXt8Mi6sM5FgTIHshttNRgsORit/eNy6y4VjPX6VpT6YZe 94xQWFqW6v4fKlic8c2YsDMAdNUcuY/UgkyUMGdQ1PmTROAfOiOudEvVLKjZdZZIDh0GImNruL43o hg+REEXVBPTO+MOaUn3vtJDa9c/gPbvmDJMllEcS7KJmfA0aC6oo0cLvjSlZQlhnd3XYKmQnmDiwT P3PDWTTeOiHXStmiCZS0Hg==; Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 19:15:02 +0300 Message-Id: <83jzsslojd.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:03:56 +0000) References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "65913@debbugs.gnu.org" <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>, > "heimeborgia@protonmail.com" , > "stefankangas@gmail.com" > Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:03:56 +0000 > > That said, more links from *Help* to manuals > could help, I think. Yes -- when either the manuals have information that is generally expected to be in the doc string, but we decided not to have it there (e.g., because it's very voluminous), or when the place in the manual where to look is not trivially clear from the doc string. In most cases, the place where to look for the related information in the manuals is quite easily found: just visit the manual and then type "i SYMBOL RET", where SYMBOL is the name of the variable or the function whose doc string you are reading. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Christopher Dimech Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Drew Adams Cc: Eli Zaretskii , uzibalqa , "heimeborgia@protonmail.com" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" , "65913@debbugs.gnu.org" <65913@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169470899531323 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:30:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 16:29:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40973 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpE2-000899-SI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:29:55 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:57241) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpDz-00088q-J6 for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:29:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1694708973; x=1695313773; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=t3ch/jGmAREeykR5fP7HnVoyrZH/XpsFuGQx6xHri6Q=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=A/yIcPeSuo+4ss8slDsIhPGTMuEi3vgpi0rDvYwVKtvy9rd5ccs6wDQGTCQzXuymoCBybK8hC/K 6gPNnByzvDkX/vMMLkIj3WnmXKi5snud+tK+HUFk0UKciekso6S+ZasCYWzE8eQV40lrfnY66QtYU KjpafsQtJvtv8+y1OdY1qQUZq+X8yh7qG8MLj/zBbaCJG2ikYaEEFxOwQ5MiVJj1H5jSZjvhciA13 WT9JmoKdKEpOaA/y2g2VLiprQDXYWqy5bkAwci0Amubtdq1EepDTr/KDB3GXBS/mQQAehvFbeL/Eq dudbHrRCnKOmmDO0F0DPLKXdnCl4PkFzEGHg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [141.8.81.247] ([141.8.81.247]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs10.server.lan [172.19.170.178]) (via HTTP); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:29:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:29:33 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:IU23Ft9I5/urtkEPQDRIRdFE46V/fs8WtP4NmVVARqz9ee1YYYn6dXlPY6Bd8OApUMGkM pXPkEssFAcGp2gfPP5ckJQgCgSShG3EA+phuAlPuD0l/D6drcFd4SiXJegyXedV5C3TTgh37YPXi i4/OM//gqrkAYG0j6jv4Wnm4KeIk7WkB2nVM7iBDXybjzAWo2290HeCIFoJ/T9CtafZzFTEVWp4s ZhOIJcY5u3Z0fn8o4pRyhdE6T8jqCavBkaRv3K0L052UiG2WIGrI0iuMIAv5E9LOEhUtBJBVJPFw bU= X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:/jjKQ0GjdAU=;i9cxXDGxTzERRJZmCRIUQIu6g1E dnLKXr/4+ascUpQ4WpPTAi4dmVjYvT0C8EVQKPYouw2BuJ2alRR8lBz8ie4DNowqD7aZUMvyC 5Hp5y7IUyEnUnszLof0Su7lSc/vGjDroPAoxMLPeXCnt7adRVser/P7DS3iBE4kTFqdwx0TiL qrKS3qsY+NsQk60RwYgYa8j7sH64/ocpOMWOymWBYInw34miZpY3qT09ZRWDcKHGAi9HTevt3 4O1LdmOR8eedsWm6e4Prt1C6DQU2iF9kLp5YywZ2G+3SCp4WVkKKc3zvCHyxwBWfynF19Ml9+ 0z+MrOU7VBvrYiBuCGYsSf6LiWOpeP3nMWL1CI93KKH/QM3TBU024d6+iWDVMacEICT1S0zBx 8GuDfdrMSn4unNDQSW43HGqSg7uWucA070yf0/fBot59kdZkchLF9+8a+5yvYRaVH34TgHeB/ NgS4EQmYWMTuuKwiZtydFkhws0etxgaPc7ftmfYKOtFRTs8LM3IMNqCO7NzO99c7jFp84LNOQ Kr1g6FMQYET2SYLpzK3mDCQtgCjKsDM38L/0LphRn9NA5/hy/19qIQmHCPkXtX2A6mzvYXrsO 131Kpx5MbLBi7LjfIhoUUSXTnMOlckxPbGUCGxfo7SYxB0oJSqZzq8cBg9u46cJfu9xZqhSbO sEzYBvdXvIXbcYfF7hf88llB5EbtBazxJAv9YiR1s60Q8irHh7etFTeXWBbC1mFJZdp74f3Er eLyynPwaRuSUp3K+03exJbRt1zB/yy9rXoniznjqUsBhjzvqbIpbzRuAr9WzNvXYpcl13Qj+0 XP2HQaEfXuEG57thiczi6wqUWVCONVWqo27O5c65MxiNE= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 at 4:03 AM > From: "Drew Adams" > To: "Eli Zaretskii" , "uzibalqa" > Cc: "65913@debbugs.gnu.org" <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>, "heimeborgia@proton= mail.com" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" > Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to= be set to 't' > > > In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string > > that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where that > > subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that > > everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. > > Amen. > > This is a common request from users, who sometimes > expect a complete answer to their question - aimed > at their particular immediate context/problem - or > a complete understanding of something, to be right > in front of them, at the first page or help msg > they encounter. And they want it to be aimed at > their particular level of background understanding. > > It's an individualistic, "Gimme, gimme, gimme, me!" > approach, naively ignoring the fact that whatever > help they hope to find will likely aim to also help > others, with different backgrounds, questions, > contexts, problems. Functioning autonomously in the whole point actually. I support the capability of being able to access to whatever might be needed in an automated way for every function. A function should have a list of associations that are relevant to that function and have the capability of giving you that information. > I'm guessing this can also come partly from a > frustration from _searching_ as the main - or even > the only - navigation users employ. Search can be > very good, or very bad. Some experience/knowledge > are needed to search effectively, as well as good > search tools. > Emacs has good search tools. The first thing users > should learn is how to Ask Emacs. The help commands > of course, and later even how to ask using Lisp etc. > A just-what-I-need-right-here-right-now expectation > is a problem for help/documentation in general, but > especially so nowadays, when it's no longer the case > (if it ever was) that readers start at the start of > a book and read sequentially. At least it should tell you what you wight need no know to fully take advantage of the capabilities of that function. > Now, more than ever, "Every Page Is Page One". > > https://everypageispageone.com/ > > Readers arrive at a URL by googling or following a > link from somewhere. Off the web, inside Emacs, > they arrive at an Info node or a *Help* description > directly. > > The solution to the "problem" is for every "page" > to provide relevant links to other pages/topics. > Every one. That way, wherever you start you can > pretty much follow the paths you want, to get the > info you need. Or a separate tool. > It's not a simple problem with a trivial solution. > Deciding what goes into a given "page"/topic, and > which other topics to link to, is a judgment call > - or more correctly lots of judgment calls. And > that means that even with the "best" design, for > some set of targeted readers/users, some will be > frustrated. (Even deciding what the targeted set > of readers should be is non-trivial and involves > compromises.) In many situation, compromises meant that valuable information is missing and never included. Instead of deciding the targeted set of readers, tools should be as broad as they can ever be. Because one might not know presumptively what they might need. Particularly when some function inple= ments some convenient shortcuts. > A good model of a generally helpful doc system is > Wikipedia. > > Emacs help and doc are pretty darn good. This is > largely because Emacs maintainers - first RMS and > now Eli, in particular - have long been hugely > interested in the help/doc - self-documenting - > feature/aspect of Emacs. Emacs didn't exactly > invent self-documenting, perhaps, but it nearly > did so. > > > Consulting the documentation is one of the > > first lessons that each Emacs user learns, > > and resisting that lesson is not recommended. > > Agreed. There's no excuse for not dipping into > the manuals. Or for not taking advantage of > other sources: tutorials, videos Q&A venues, etc. > Different users learn differently, of course. The excuse is that one can look at whatever you are saying, only to find out that it was all a waste of time. For instance, would one go through the Xah Talk Shows or go through the EmacsConf or Libre Planet talks unless you are sure it will be useful ? I don't think so ! > That said, more links from *Help* to manuals > could help, I think. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Christopher Dimech Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:41:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, uzibalqa@proton.me, heimeborgia@protonmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169470964232518 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:41:01 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 16:40:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40978 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpOR-0008SJ-9l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:40:42 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:57111) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpOM-0008S1-EJ for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:40:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1694709616; x=1695314416; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=hG+X6kWHGjyzNIcigk9Nhym4o4SKxFxzCmQTrL80qbI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=iR7/j6hRdJ5vWmQ2HYhiRQn5Cx6EP27qWq71nLB7GP3P3a5RePgpSbJ76S765C07PN7tmr+SERh VOxxVZGoPpw46XVdV3VdPb+nrVKsX+8s+flTzm+MDjmGyBMVjuAj3XQvIdCsAbAcxJXwNc/J3tskG RKNAJlVNhe6HAM3HO8QFILfs91lkQN9rFLoifAF2CFkN3rMK++C6j0TVgAlm2SMTL+BXaVmsKrv2b aDYDFEjwudeX5uGj5klC4PQdMt1aRQH4xSXgaf1bZ39aFwWRPqF1SWTQqAzNQSgCKVVZuQA97w+Gm qAmJPwcsvmBnA8Bb3mPzpOiqMU/K5atbTz5w== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [141.8.81.247] ([141.8.81.247]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs10.server.lan [172.19.170.178]) (via HTTP); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:40:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:40:16 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <83jzsslojd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> <83jzsslojd.fsf@gnu.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+HwFhMtzMBG4hDSnOQ9wQ1N3t7+ZgAXMRWg24hA3N9QdfdejZq2wcsJyzMVhAY3cWLNeJ o5PQnlcJVKW5RBO1D3bBzA9ekKOeZUjhV4mzYhHzWweraOQHpducG3E8s9GvDvLxI/qAefZXKsdh JnI9Ub/n0mxvaEWSJALZ1em0mj2UYSqHp2F6FT9PRdzLLh/OtrF0vNorqF0MvrWx03SXrBwxMuKs Jnz+wltno3H2Eih9DaUGv9uNQ3MNdq6kQQrY6tvoqSQOU0iLrIOA6XDOVlpibWfijH0Fsma/tLrq HA= X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:ObRTeHlN+uQ=;OOZgaHTVICwRDqdfRHUNZWG1bYy jUV1sXcskrHcMQas6seYu6k3nQlLsaIGgW+m2+37TcbMR0ZooR7XUQrEdtZHlmbgjWt92IheQ +RfupYWRtCIC77Qo76n4c70DyjLSQ34WvhtGMvyL8blbGeOHrh6U7GhVyyfblQTp7b4+UXI5I zMcRO1SIzamWy9x4OXJvkNktgX7bt1GIYlJo1wsYFUM4gnGFRy+/V2suZjPv9//dResvXsM7E X+ljWBaMn0VrAF1LJA6zLFZXOO5SunQd4x4K4HTBWKf+WtpR5kiXnMSbgeYI3+olkkxpjzf9o c7iwaZ1OvUSA0XmdDhOABl6wXdy6czt8BSJqhQD/ule5+EwC4nrzHWkM56Cdz8iSPwi+cqvh2 pllW5m9uN0FACCQDO9KEU9fUbyD33/VFnB0ThXmkOEALt0jCEKZbyeGAPzJcYN/dohf/kTTxM rn3BoKe9YJQENnLNCpNywgopgcwW7011u+w2lMWBVwvK+wmoBpj3wqhVXX8Xlx4fRmVSCAI4b 0NlTNwbWnnMh/NlZGJTSzfSMZamVA74BlVFsRf0k6ynOi6FhpVHbHBn2y+I+9uVZDzR3JuogT v13wlG6S1MpGaBKkVtAcIupsMNlP3lBNaBwt/M85tl3rYB4FjOykk7cFnT3Foylb2wlD8LTwO e9Pc1EAdbXiEBCwG8x6mW1dQtq72eRJkiy2TPcM37UNx0bVtoR7zNYxG2SC82QZLxqxsF2cx1 gv+559lfNPnAEd/6XuPg4h0ofXrYeEj0+RiUhS2j8TI6uXk+0pFumnzfa6YSdJKb4fqx/AeE4 25aGiAUDAOglBO8WqbSHJr4g== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 at 4:15 AM > From: "Eli Zaretskii" > To: "Drew Adams" > Cc: uzibalqa@proton.me, heimeborgia@protonmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.c= om, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to= be set to 't' > > > From: Drew Adams > > CC: "65913@debbugs.gnu.org" <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>, > > "heimeborgia@protonmail.com" , > > "stefankangas@gmail.com" > > Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:03:56 +0000 > > > > That said, more links from *Help* to manuals > > could help, I think. > > Yes -- when either the manuals have information that is generally > expected to be in the doc string, but we decided not to have it there > (e.g., because it's very voluminous), or when the place in the manual > where to look is not trivially clear from the doc string. I think the whole point is that if the information is available somewhere, one should be able to access it (voluminous or not). > In most cases, the place where to look for the related information in > the manuals is quite easily found: just visit the manual and then type > "i SYMBOL RET", where SYMBOL is the name of the variable or the > function whose doc string you are reading. There could be some information in the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" that illustrates an actual serious problem and how to get to the information from within Emacs itself in an efficient way. But, in my opinion the introduction is more about toy problems rather than complicated actual work examples. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:56:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Christopher Dimech Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, uzibalqa@proton.me, heimeborgia@protonmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16947105422188 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:56:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 16:55:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41012 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpd0-0000ZE-GS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:55:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36636) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpcy-0000Yr-NW for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:55:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpcm-0005KU-Rn; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:55:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=6dyO+UWTHm1QKri/bVZHNl3EQXbnW1X4ZTPtUI0QDrI=; b=LOrE+u+/tF6Z Yy72YfD7NCSJPeBKwUx2XvZFAZtWGSv3H2JZt6deNJZYrlXo56fjUHGZ5NA13nD5Y3MmNL8gVvvLS ToiWhadPF3p5PhzIRs4qZliyetKmemJG+J33jab1axsVg+t/Sd14HnNAXRWZ2Utdsjcj3KEHhlxSb 5OgE3iaVIDO/CnpKSQ13ZkZW8yL0Y6KnSAt4O0TiabtZsZFFPCyK6Bc+1dVlKUVssa2pE8MVfvrbH oKLlbiNvab0YvmsZztSJg+MdKTiGMM4ke+NDStWxbUAoTukQAth57oot6Emn3/EeX7N6kuLDoEKab Xl391IYECKACcL3lXQNfCw==; Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 19:55:13 +0300 Message-Id: <83fs3glmoe.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Christopher Dimech on Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:40:16 +0200) References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> <83jzsslojd.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Christopher Dimech > Cc: Drew Adams , uzibalqa@proton.me, > heimeborgia@protonmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:40:16 +0200 > > > Yes -- when either the manuals have information that is generally > > expected to be in the doc string, but we decided not to have it there > > (e.g., because it's very voluminous), or when the place in the manual > > where to look is not trivially clear from the doc string. > > I think the whole point is that if the information is available somewhere, > one should be able to access it (voluminous or not). Emacs shines in this area by providing commands that allow such easy access. One just has to use them. > > In most cases, the place where to look for the related information in > > the manuals is quite easily found: just visit the manual and then type > > "i SYMBOL RET", where SYMBOL is the name of the variable or the > > function whose doc string you are reading. > > There could be some information in the "Introduction to Programming in > Emacs Lisp" that illustrates an actual serious problem and how to get > to the information from within Emacs itself in an efficient way. We already have this in the Emacs user manual, see the beginning of the chapter "Help". It lists the various methods of finding relevant information in the available documentation. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:46:35 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Resent-From: Christopher Dimech Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 19:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, uzibalqa@proton.me, heimeborgia@protonmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169471826518227 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 19:05:02 +0000 Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 19:04:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41148 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgrdY-0004jv-TO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:04:25 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:42853) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgrdV-0004jZ-KS for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:04:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1694718242; x=1695323042; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=TdTuAOxOTcWOVCZY/HZkiEF/nSIKv55UVTCaNlF1JBI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=skNK1cmioLNqWEJkxvKXDQJHv4xdJedXLghjfiRt//Hew3WxzNrLkLviYo7ccpXOWeW7uhNrQbJ gOrt7HNzz23iCD4VHjsGPVy9y40Qi0w1rdoicgiq5Z+cEdnJz82uVxO24trVW0tIi027oNsvfM3Qe CnBQjhqCAHw1WBJvnsMGCYP0csUzCKgNymsbjW47w0PYeQ9ax6O6kmqIZYhIxQnRssp8yFttX1DuH 77Gx5fL6LROTEVOpJogR2LttBpsfQCKnC8mM74Riqf0RjMBkbRt1jkdubHnQQotfPhJtrYZ3uEqkK W/DLM1YTSBdlkoyAegQp4gupyVcBPqd0iPUA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [141.8.81.247] ([141.8.81.247]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs03.server.lan [172.19.170.169]) (via HTTP); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:04:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:04:02 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <83fs3glmoe.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> <83jzsslojd.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3glmoe.fsf@gnu.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:TurCo21VUbb0uZdzGFLR1URt1dbSwrmCQna9CCh7aTUQb76RaKZOVQiIDWdl5KOfWa+ef 9mn5goMjaIisOauA4LKegKxuDI5DK7w6W/JlF64DeKTt3jxS+vkXAUKwR1NwDKrWc1M0TypAGgSv e6GWC0nuOocFksojb19FBiK22D1IFwKyvEPD4hyFsuyUYtsIDexGWeGmXK7cV7AZC5v1N0oLB5Zj PC90+CqWmdY/7PzhimQXk0saervpfI80YLE0JUgXqMc2uKMO9mkF+TL2Epy/NaRxFEuSKIm5ZxXq mI= X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:2vvzwagYPjY=;objk0N+tIeleRkmWOc/8MDrZH8c SbRhYoYHQcZV4WH8gbDe0jVdl4WNG2H3YVkUbdviMNpGUGr4YbB6XDEodTFOV2uMyim7pFxMt euwSOX32Nlhc27HpIFqshSe91I1XBuMpuS2iB6CJPQaCSfnbUQ+o0MfdP87Twi3AMypG11ls3 c3367v7jKTbiUho+1MtBAkI8hI4DeyM00a+FuAxK4SguiMZ8Gf/2zvHJTI9o9H+QMz+ForaIQ 3RGMzcZSL+XcjfxAJKtoZW5x3OqH6ooL/k+1QfgSbMXw3SwD56HAUfRQpxVmLG8nfWCvm3GNJ WQtiufonnfvBeA4D83qePJ66KYDx1K9Rf7t/DGlYQUxl+KRuFKMXpEFi45f5yCH8eDPSCn+9b b6JQ7eD2p6ObsWya4MkQpP1JJ5HK2lKRuIHOiLTjebEg2vWjeXnxI65CrzBbFdtdIGEF2KpHV l12ORgf98FuZwGLKzEbH9/Zuk3g7V0gZelbIJqqfJ/M8vDAEHdrkIxgWfZmRwxvqtb4REoijM POEuAAoLLy84rUBkKTE8Xnq0qiS5Kb0jeKGaz9eGZ59a6/Ykm1DX33sJs/WsdXN4MK2jsJkFi T7YA2W8MmkL/gjK2SHDkus1KbIPLsecWpLaQtINNSy4e4q8mKWIiiUE9va545GaW9oH1SUNr0 JRfWeeHkhAnsPe0S2JQXSAUjmlS1ULJmvKuzosyqMMyZDCyq+gN1tfNO08XfSko0N7Xc+ea8O sQhSgiKYzdonAP6ANsOoH3dTMTjTe/6SWXCpNkX8u1W0kHbsWGw52Iyob2TUOYTiuXLh8r3R8 T3SouW2kE8LYhJT1yS0IVXDA== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 at 4:55 AM > From: "Eli Zaretskii" > To: "Christopher Dimech" > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, uzibalqa@proton.me, heimeborgia@protonmail.co= m, stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > Subject: Re: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only= ' to be set to 't' > > > From: Christopher Dimech > > Cc: Drew Adams , uzibalqa@proton.me, > > heimeborgia@protonmail.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu= .org > > Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:40:16 +0200 > > > > > Yes -- when either the manuals have information that is generally > > > expected to be in the doc string, but we decided not to have it ther= e > > > (e.g., because it's very voluminous), or when the place in the manua= l > > > where to look is not trivially clear from the doc string. > > > > I think the whole point is that if the information is available somewh= ere, > > one should be able to access it (voluminous or not). > > Emacs shines in this area by providing commands that allow such easy > access. One just has to use them. > > > > In most cases, the place where to look for the related information i= n > > > the manuals is quite easily found: just visit the manual and then ty= pe > > > "i SYMBOL RET", where SYMBOL is the name of the variable or the > > > function whose doc string you are reading. > > > > There could be some information in the "Introduction to Programming in > > Emacs Lisp" that illustrates an actual serious problem and how to get > > to the information from within Emacs itself in an efficient way. > > We already have this in the Emacs user manual, see the beginning of > the chapter "Help". It lists the various methods of finding relevant > information in the available documentation. I can go through the "Reference Manual" and the "Introduction to Programmi= ng in Emacs Lisp" to make sure users cannot miss it. Look at some of the que= stions by the OP and see how easy it is to figure things out via a specific proce= dure that can be followed.