From unknown Fri Aug 15 20:51:02 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Resent-From: Tim Cross Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 6521 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 6521@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.127763833813048 (code B ref -1); Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:33:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2010 11:32:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSq5w-0003OP-U9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:32:18 -0400 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSnlY-0001lS-To for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:03:05 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:51853) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1OSnlV-0007eq-VT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:03:02 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=49662 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OSnlU-00078X-Bz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:03:01 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSnlT-0004tg-0J for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:03:00 -0400 Received: from ipmail04.adl6.internode.on.net ([150.101.137.141]:23505) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSnlS-0004sg-NB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:02:58 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AosFADqvJkx5LJBO/2dsb2JhbACSegEBjC9yvV+CW4JJBA Received: from ppp121-44-144-78.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net (HELO lion.rapttech.com.au) ([121.44.144.78]) by ipmail04.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 27 Jun 2010 18:32:53 +0930 From: Tim Cross Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:02:52 +1000 Message-ID: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:32:16 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.3 (-----) It appears the section from the emacs manual that use to describe the old pre emacs 19.29 behavior with backquotes has been removed. In previous versions of the manual, it use to describe what this old behavior was and why it is no longer required. However, it now only describes the use of backquote as it should now be used. I think it would be a good idea to put the description of the old section back into the manual. The reason is that 1. The compiler, when warning of code that still uses the old backquote format references this node, but there is no reference to the old behavior in the node anymore. This makes things less clear to new users that perhaps it should be. 2. It may not be obvious to more recent users exactly what the old behavior was, making it more difficult to identify the old style and understand how it use to be formatted in order to update the code to use the correct modern style. 3. This is likely to become a bigger issue now that emacs 24 is changing to assume a backquote with a space following it is modern style. I just encountered code which failed to compile due to this. When wanting to clarify my understanding, I found nothing relevant in the manual. I was referencing version 3 of the elisp manual (for emacs version 24.0.50). regards, Tim -- Tim Cross tcross@rapttech.com.au There are two types of people in IT - those who do not manage what they understand and those who do not understand what they manage. From unknown Fri Aug 15 20:51:02 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 18:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 6521 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Tim Cross'" , <6521@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 6521-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B6521.127766174825788 (code B ref 6521); Sun, 27 Jun 2010 18:03:02 +0000 Received: (at 6521) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2010 18:02:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSwBX-0006ht-7q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:02:27 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSwBW-0006ho-1f for 6521@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:02:26 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o5RI2JG2021693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 27 Jun 2010 18:02:20 GMT Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o5RHbP4o017721; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 18:02:18 GMT Received: from abhmt020.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 360257251277661732; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:02:12 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.88.51) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:02:11 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:02:19 -0700 Message-ID: <120D76DC1AA8437E8C7E421F7E0901DA@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> Thread-Index: AcsWIPGzfDXUTv3uSmKHIr8GBzGuLgAAeEvw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4C27922B.003D:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) +1 to what Tim said. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jun 27 14:22:40 2010 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2010 18:22:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSwV6-0006rf-8q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:22:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSwV3-0006rY-GO for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:22:38 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSwUy-0007UL-8F; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:22:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19495.38632.222849.423675@fencepost.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:22:32 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: control Subject: control X-Attribution: GM X-Mailer: VM (www.wonderworks.com/vm), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs) X-Hue: blue X-Ran: W=bD1~1Woy>BIrx2L~;9:d)@Rv"*khC7I}X1O=2QvTaD[3)m_7%,=-'4(vG8I#t$]la6CO X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) forcemerge 5158 6521 From unknown Fri Aug 15 20:51:02 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 06:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 6521 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Tim Cross Cc: 6521@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 6521-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B6521.127796485930606 (code B ref 6521); Thu, 01 Jul 2010 06:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 6521) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jul 2010 06:14:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUD2Q-0007xb-Q8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 02:14:19 -0400 Received: from smtp-04.vtx.ch ([194.38.175.93]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUD2O-0007xW-H3 for 6521@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 02:14:17 -0400 Received: from ceviche.home (dyn.144-85-133-055.dsl.vtx.ch [144.85.133.55]) by smtp-04.vtx.ch (VTX Services SA) with ESMTP id 8E67A29AD7B; Thu, 1 Jul 2010 08:14:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 8AA3D66268; Thu, 1 Jul 2010 02:46:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 02:46:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> (Tim Cross's message of "Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:02:52 +1000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) > 3. This is likely to become a bigger issue now that emacs 24 is > changing to assume a backquote with a space following it is ^^^ You mean: out right? > modern style. I just encountered code which failed to compile > due to this. When wanting to clarify my understanding, I found > nothing relevant in the manual. Could you send it along, so we could see what it looks like (to better assess whether it means we have a serious problem, or if it's just bad luck). Stefan From unknown Fri Aug 15 20:51:02 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Resent-From: Tim Cross Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 07:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 6521 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Cc: 6521@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: tcross@rapttech.com.au Received: via spool by 6521-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B6521.1277970718411 (code B ref 6521); Thu, 01 Jul 2010 07:52:01 +0000 Received: (at 6521) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jul 2010 07:51:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUEYv-00006a-PC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 03:51:58 -0400 Received: from ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net ([150.101.137.129]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OUEN2-0008TW-Hd for 6521@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2010 03:39:42 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArEGAE3iK0x5LJBO/2dsb2JhbACTK4w3cr5WhSUE Received: from ppp121-44-144-78.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net (HELO localhost) ([121.44.144.78]) by ipmail06.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2010 17:09:35 +0930 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:39:33 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <20100701.173933.520277347.tcross@rapttech.com.au> From: Tim Cross In-Reply-To: References: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> Organization: Rapt Technologies X-Mailer: Mew version 7.0.50 on Emacs 23.2 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 03:51:56 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) From: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 02:46:39 +0200 >> 3. This is likely to become a bigger issue now that emacs 24 is >> changing to assume a backquote with a space following it is > ^^^ > You mean: out > right? > yep, I meant without a space. >> modern style. I just encountered code which failed to compile >> due to this. When wanting to clarify my understanding, I found >> nothing relevant in the manual. > > Could you send it along, so we could see what it looks like (to better > assess whether it means we have a serious problem, or if it's just > bad luck). > The code which failed to compile was BBDB as bundled with Debian testing. Do you want me to send the error message that was generated? (note that the code still compiles with emacs23). Tim From unknown Fri Aug 15 20:51:02 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.427 (Entity 5.427) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Tim Cross Subject: bug#6521: closed (Re: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission) Message-ID: References: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 6521 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 6521@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:09:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1282342142-27534-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1282342142-27534-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission=20 which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 6521@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 6521: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D6521 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1282342142-27534-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 6521-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Aug 2010 22:08:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OmZlg-00079v-W1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:08:57 -0400 Received: from impaqm1.telefonica.net ([213.4.138.1]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OmZf1-000772-Dg for 6521-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:02:03 -0400 Received: from IMPmailhost4.adm.correo ([10.20.102.125]) by IMPaqm1.telefonica.net with bizsmtp id wm2y1e00Q2iL0W201m3Cza; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:12 +0200 Received: from ceviche.home ([83.61.35.93]) by IMPmailhost4.adm.correo with BIZ IMP id wm3B1e00220aCvn1km3BLB; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:12 +0200 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-TE-authinfo: authemail="monnier$movistar.es" |auth_email="monnier@movistar.es" X-TE-AcuTerraCos: auth_cuTerraCos="cosuitnetc01" Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 0FABB660E9; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Stefan Monnier To: tcross@rapttech.com.au Subject: Re: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Message-ID: References: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> <20100701.173933.520277347.tcross@rapttech.com.au> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20100701.173933.520277347.tcross@rapttech.com.au> (Tim Cross's message of "Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:39:33 +1000 (EST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6521-done X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:08:55 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) [ Can't remember responding yet. ] >> Could you send it along, so we could see what it looks like (to better >> assess whether it means we have a serious problem, or if it's just >> bad luck). > The code which failed to compile was BBDB as bundled with Debian testing. Do > you want me to send the error message that was generated? (note that the code > still compiles with emacs23). AFAIK, this problem has been fixed a little while back. Stefan ------------=_1282342142-27534-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2010 11:32:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSq5w-0003OP-U9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:32:18 -0400 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSnlY-0001lS-To for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:03:05 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:51853) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1OSnlV-0007eq-VT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:03:02 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=49662 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OSnlU-00078X-Bz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:03:01 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSnlT-0004tg-0J for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:03:00 -0400 Received: from ipmail04.adl6.internode.on.net ([150.101.137.141]:23505) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSnlS-0004sg-NB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 05:02:58 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AosFADqvJkx5LJBO/2dsb2JhbACSegEBjC9yvV+CW4JJBA Received: from ppp121-44-144-78.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net (HELO lion.rapttech.com.au) ([121.44.144.78]) by ipmail04.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 27 Jun 2010 18:32:53 +0930 From: Tim Cross To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:02:52 +1000 Message-ID: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:32:16 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.3 (-----) It appears the section from the emacs manual that use to describe the old pre emacs 19.29 behavior with backquotes has been removed. In previous versions of the manual, it use to describe what this old behavior was and why it is no longer required. However, it now only describes the use of backquote as it should now be used. I think it would be a good idea to put the description of the old section back into the manual. The reason is that 1. The compiler, when warning of code that still uses the old backquote format references this node, but there is no reference to the old behavior in the node anymore. This makes things less clear to new users that perhaps it should be. 2. It may not be obvious to more recent users exactly what the old behavior was, making it more difficult to identify the old style and understand how it use to be formatted in order to update the code to use the correct modern style. 3. This is likely to become a bigger issue now that emacs 24 is changing to assume a backquote with a space following it is modern style. I just encountered code which failed to compile due to this. When wanting to clarify my understanding, I found nothing relevant in the manual. I was referencing version 3 of the elisp manual (for emacs version 24.0.50). regards, Tim -- Tim Cross tcross@rapttech.com.au There are two types of people in IT - those who do not manage what they understand and those who do not understand what they manage. ------------=_1282342142-27534-1-- From unknown Fri Aug 15 20:51:02 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.427 (Entity 5.427) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Kevin Ryde Subject: bug#5158: closed (Re: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission) Message-ID: References: <878wddcidh.fsf@blah.blah> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 5158 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 5158@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:09:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1282342142-27534-3" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1282342142-27534-3 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #6521: 23.1; bytecomp ref to elisp manual on old style backquotes which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 5158@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 6521: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D6521 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1282342142-27534-3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 6521-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Aug 2010 22:08:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OmZlg-00079v-W1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:08:57 -0400 Received: from impaqm1.telefonica.net ([213.4.138.1]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OmZf1-000772-Dg for 6521-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:02:03 -0400 Received: from IMPmailhost4.adm.correo ([10.20.102.125]) by IMPaqm1.telefonica.net with bizsmtp id wm2y1e00Q2iL0W201m3Cza; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:12 +0200 Received: from ceviche.home ([83.61.35.93]) by IMPmailhost4.adm.correo with BIZ IMP id wm3B1e00220aCvn1km3BLB; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:12 +0200 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-TE-authinfo: authemail="monnier$movistar.es" |auth_email="monnier@movistar.es" X-TE-AcuTerraCos: auth_cuTerraCos="cosuitnetc01" Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 0FABB660E9; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Stefan Monnier To: tcross@rapttech.com.au Subject: Re: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Message-ID: References: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> <20100701.173933.520277347.tcross@rapttech.com.au> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20100701.173933.520277347.tcross@rapttech.com.au> (Tim Cross's message of "Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:39:33 +1000 (EST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6521-done X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:08:55 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) [ Can't remember responding yet. ] >> Could you send it along, so we could see what it looks like (to better >> assess whether it means we have a serious problem, or if it's just >> bad luck). > The code which failed to compile was BBDB as bundled with Debian testing. Do > you want me to send the error message that was generated? (note that the code > still compiles with emacs23). AFAIK, this problem has been fixed a little while back. Stefan ------------=_1282342142-27534-3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 8 Dec 2009 20:39:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,FOURLA,SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q0 autolearn=no version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id nB8KdEbr000651 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:39:16 -0800 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NI6q1-0000Dv-QO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:39:14 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NI6pw-00007C-HT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:39:12 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=36685 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NI6pv-00006e-RB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:39:07 -0500 Received: from mailout2-6.pacific.net.au ([61.8.2.229]:49616 helo=mailout2.pacific.net.au) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NI6pv-00067D-78 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:39:07 -0500 Received: from mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (mailproxy2.pacific.net.au [61.8.2.163]) by mailout2.pacific.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C8619D0EC for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:39:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from blah.blah (ppp2B95.dyn.pacific.net.au [61.8.43.149]) by mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1AC27408 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 2009 07:38:06 +1100 (EST) Received: from gg by blah.blah with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NI6o6-0001WV-Pw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:37:14 +1100 From: Kevin Ryde To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 23.1; bytecomp ref to elisp manual on old style backquotes Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:37:14 +1100 Message-ID: <878wddcidh.fsf@blah.blah> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) Byte compiling (defmacro foo (thing) (` (some ,thing))) gives x.el:1:1:Warning: !! The file uses old-style backquotes !! This functionality has been obsolete for more than 10 years already and will be removed soon. See (elisp)Backquote in the manual. But that node in the elisp manual doesn't describe the old syntax or what, if anything, you have to do to stop "removed soon" from breaking your code. In GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.16.5) of 2009-09-14 on raven, modified by Debian configured using `configure '--build=i486-linux-gnu' '--host=i486-linux-gnu' '--prefix=/usr' '--sharedstatedir=/var/lib' '--libexecdir=/usr/lib' '--localstatedir=/var/lib' '--infodir=/usr/share/info' '--mandir=/usr/share/man' '--with-pop=yes' '--enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs23:/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/23.1/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/23.1/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/23.1/leim' '--with-x=yes' '--with-x-toolkit=gtk' '--with-toolkit-scroll-bars' 'build_alias=i486-linux-gnu' 'host_alias=i486-linux-gnu' 'CFLAGS=-DDEBIAN -g -O2' 'LDFLAGS=-g' 'CPPFLAGS='' Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: en_AU value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: iso-latin-1-unix default-enable-multibyte-characters: t ------------=_1282342142-27534-3-- From unknown Fri Aug 15 20:51:02 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6521: 23.2; Elisp Manual Ommission Resent-From: "Tim Cross" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:40:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 6521 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: tcross@rapttech.com.au, 6521@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: theophilusx@gmail.com Received: via spool by 6521-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B6521.128234396528366 (code B ref 6521); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:40:03 +0000 Received: (at 6521) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Aug 2010 22:39:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaFA-0007NT-JE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:39:25 -0400 Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net ([150.101.137.143]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaBg-0007KS-0o for 6521@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:35:49 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAE+ebkx5LN3n/2dsb2JhbACgOXKpVwqIJS6IWYU3BIRnhQyHVQ Received: from ppp121-44-221-231.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net (HELO puma.rapttech.com.au) ([121.44.221.231]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2010 08:06:55 +0930 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19567.898.422804.121281@puma.rapttech.com.au> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 08:36:50 +1000 From: "Tim Cross" In-Reply-To: References: <87iq5497b7.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> <20100701.173933.520277347.tcross@rapttech.com.au> X-Mailer: VM 8.1.92a under 24.0.50.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:39:23 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) Stefan Monnier writes: > [ Can't remember responding yet. ] > >> Could you send it along, so we could see what it looks like (to > >> better assess whether it means we have a serious problem, or if > >> it's just bad luck). > > The code which failed to compile was BBDB as bundled with Debian > > testing. Do you want me to send the error message that was > > generated? (note that the code still compiles with emacs23). > > AFAIK, this problem has been fixed a little while back. Yes, the problem with compilation seems to have been fixed. However, there is still a problem. Now it is a documentation issue rather than a compilation one. The manual no longer has a section about the deprecated use of the old style backquote. The warning message generated by the byte compiler still refers the user to the backquote section of the elisp manual for more information, but there is no reference to old style backquotes in that section. This makes it very difficult for anyone who is not familiar with the change in style to understand what use to be different and what needs to be changed in the code to get rid of the warning. Given that this change in style happened many years ago, there is likely a number of users who are unfamiliar with what the old style was and they would probably benefit from some explanation/guidance. I recommend that either a footnote be added to the backquote section of the elisp reference manual or a new section be added about the old style backquotes and what needs to be changed to make it compliant with modern usage. The compiler warning message should probably also be updated to either direct users to the footnote or new section. regards, Tim -- Tim Cross tcross@rapttech.com.au There are two types of people in IT - those who do not manage what they understand and those who do not understand what they manage. -- Tim Cross tcross@rapttech.com.au There are two types of people in IT - those who do not manage what they understand and those who do not understand what they manage.