From unknown Fri Jun 20 19:54:50 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#64871 <64871@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#64871 <64871@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file Reply-To: bug#64871 <64871@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 02:54:50 +0000 retitle 64871 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file reassign 64871 emacs submitter 64871 Ihor Radchenko severity 64871 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 26 07:04:34 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Jul 2023 11:04:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47618 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOcJm-0001ea-6e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jul 2023 07:04:34 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:57570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOcJj-0001eN-Hj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jul 2023 07:04:32 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOcJe-0006Vd-Af for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jul 2023 07:04:26 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOcJa-0003nR-PE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jul 2023 07:04:25 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3EDA240028 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2023 13:04:18 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1690369458; bh=mBfJTHqNe3C6xtnq5iL2KifMlfVZC3vw9vUiZmaePF4=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=FD0Rjpfk3Pt7qYZFUk4WOrSEZgaaFIFijGz9UQ4LJvh9zSr4jYp3fhBpxShPtQddw +lMpQMj63zTR0HpWVoANjCmUAdX5zL8peH9tSrwp5hV4D1fBdZrFZ+GZMpE2dNnDGM IJ65taZbv4Yd3i73Esfmf2iauggMB4e+MwavyLGUFl34RPwKiUEZ1BgYwBT4Db6E5F VkzYT9Eno0/lxWg2lTtAgOvZBXKAqHy8fntLurkLM4ujBs47P8qZAq6kYjMNbSpLh8 u7E0xR/h+eUMFInC26ZsWxxqdR6SlQr9g45sE/yJWA4TSEQqlOVmA1Otw3f7+KNWt+ YdRZVmgW6sOHw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4R9rcy1PYFz9rxR for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2023 13:04:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 11:04:31 +0000 Message-ID: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, >From my experience, many new Emacs users have difficulties adding things to their init file. Especially on Windows. I have seen people being stuck when asked to "add some Elisp snippet to config". They do not fully understand how to open that "config". In some instances, users just created init.el in some random directory, modified it, and then got confused why the config is not affecting anything. I think that it would be nice to provide an easily accessible command that opens init.el or creates a new one, if not exists yet. The command should obviously be available via M-x and maybe also via menu and toolbar. WDYT? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8e7fedf2b81a6158caf14e0a8a471831; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 01:09:30 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 26 Jul 2023 11:04:31 +0000") References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:09:24 +0800 Message-ID: <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21647 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 746 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > The command should obviously be available via M-x and maybe also via > menu The global menu bar is already overflowing, so let's not add any more items to the Edit, Options, Buffers or Tools menus. The Emacs manual holds a description of the location of user initialization files. We can't help people who don't read, and something tells me the individuals you mention are not the type to carefully browse through our convoluted menus to find the item you propose anyway. > and toolbar. No! Adding that item to the tool bar would increase its (limited) size and defeat its purpose of holding frequently used editing operations, relegating its role to that of a dumping ground for miscellany. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 27 01:35:42 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jul 2023 05:35:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40530 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOtf4-0005Qn-6d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 01:35:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57164) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOtf2-0005QZ-4V for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 01:35:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOtew-0006dB-CU; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 01:35:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Gr/3CJz/epvj4ZziSvknbhnoq1R6ySvCQS6P8f/G/Ac=; b=QcrQsBs7YVVk QaGVWsUAvOHutTNB1XqC7OPHnjoo4kBzbqW0k6UmkCUzJM4zCtfnjDq1Upx35PWY5Aed9i7fbFkz0 G3SYxOjAOdzKhZv8IMfZBcrPWiz5Ri+svScXNWMjtlwnUIP/vbDNxaBbbIzcdmVPe7lYM6FAj/tlm 11BenpXfAhysynhO6kZ0EZmfxfTLl4R3lUopNFDQGms+l5yPdVpHhADActhUeygypIL29aReGLEbG QV6e2Qn7LdHQPkNRrTcyX/GMi7cbp5AdSzMCPYZcCUlf3RPEdfU9sEoj2HLfgJwl3OHZVfxRDjTMS 0qJNlWrkor8x3hGUV2seqg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOteo-0002XP-VQ; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 01:35:34 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:36:17 +0300 Message-Id: <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 64871@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:09:24 +0800 > From: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Ihor Radchenko writes: > > > The command should obviously be available via M-x and maybe also via > > menu > > The global menu bar is already overflowing, so let's not add any more > items to the Edit, Options, Buffers or Tools menus. Before concluding that this suggestion will cause trouble to the over-crowded menu bar, we should talk about where this new items might be placed. If we place it in an existing sub-menu, then the problems it will cause might not be that grave. For example, how about the Options->Customize Emacs sub-menu? > The Emacs manual holds a description of the location of user > initialization files. In a 55-line subsection, plus another 54-line section in the Appendices that describes the Windows-specific quirks! > > and toolbar. > > No! > > Adding that item to the tool bar would increase its (limited) size and > defeat its purpose of holding frequently used editing operations, > relegating its role to that of a dumping ground for miscellany. To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it. But I actually wonder about something else: what other applications have a tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the customization menu? 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c88d166245e8010db92e52bbaa124ecd; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 05:44:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:36:17 +0300") References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:44:39 +0800 Message-ID: <87tttpx60o.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21647 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1291 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Before concluding that this suggestion will cause trouble to the > over-crowded menu bar, we should talk about where this new items might > be placed. If we place it in an existing sub-menu, then the problems > it will cause might not be that grave. For example, how about the > Options->Customize Emacs sub-menu? I don't think that the people who need help finding their initialization files are likely to look there. Maybe the tutorial could mention the locations where Emacs searches for initialization files, or we could put a link to the init files on the splash screen. > To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it. Not on my phone, where the default tool-bar is about four items away from wrapping. We certainly can't afford to waste that space on these items. > But I actually wonder about something else: what other applications > have a tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the > customization menu? Other applications don't treat their tool bars as disposal areas for anything they want to make prominent :-) On a slightly unrelated note, I think Emacs would be well served by an interactive tutorial, like the proverbial Clippy from MS Office. It could be opened from a link on the splash screen. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 27 02:19:13 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jul 2023 06:19:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40561 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOuLB-0006Tx-55 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 02:19:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42202) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOuL8-0006Tl-Ow for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 02:19:11 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOuL2-0004NN-Hb; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 02:19:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=1YhipPJDWLVII3vH0ETojNuEvLLwwNpMFyeG+vCRXiQ=; b=aI4rF+7bIIiF83ZOt6Rm qRlSktXVmFK69/vRfZEUEAsWPHh8HrW7QD0e9zyTiNz5PO0hM7QhVPSLaN8VNHV/hX5M0hqORNiqI bPLvXK8pDXNcJ69Khznm//cv+nJGZfPLWDntMJqaOOcvVFBgbJYjZzE0edS5+BszI5lwIfEcPRO18 Wgr4E76bynaaLxWORgKk6DkGhgfUtEnB9kH+x3fBeg9v5qpSn+Au19s8GaskzLGmF5ZOFmtm1gojS MD0wFttnnazrvXjzmXXsQCrd11doKkbIq7b+CeDIG3VU3KrePj0hcopLWebSHJ5Ohs9YzI5oznk5D rQceca+ebXbnig==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOuL1-00088s-58; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 02:19:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:19:52 +0300 Message-Id: <83lef1naev.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87tttpx60o.fsf@yahoo.com> (message from Po Lu on Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:44:39 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87tttpx60o.fsf@yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Po Lu > Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 13:44:39 +0800 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Before concluding that this suggestion will cause trouble to the > > over-crowded menu bar, we should talk about where this new items might > > be placed. If we place it in an existing sub-menu, then the problems > > it will cause might not be that grave. For example, how about the > > Options->Customize Emacs sub-menu? > > I don't think that the people who need help finding their initialization > files are likely to look there. Are people who want to customize Emacs likely to use the Options->Customize Emacs menu? If yes, why not have this one additional item there? If no, why do we have that menu at all? > Maybe the tutorial could mention the locations where Emacs searches for > initialization files, or we could put a link to the init files on the > splash screen. The tutorial is not the place to explain _where_ Emacs finds the init file. > > To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it. > > Not on my phone, where the default tool-bar is about four items away > from wrapping. We certainly can't afford to waste that space on these > items. So we are now using a smartphone as the reference platform for making UI decisions? Smartphones might need a whole new approach to the Emacs UI, and a bunch of very different UI decisions. They should not dictate what our UI looks like on desktop and laptop machines. > > But I actually wonder about something else: what other applications > > have a tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the > > customization menu? > > Other applications don't treat their tool bars as disposal areas for > anything they want to make prominent :-) When did you last look at modern word processors and their tool bars? They are, in fact, much more crowded than ours. > On a slightly unrelated note, I think Emacs would be well served by an > interactive tutorial, like the proverbial Clippy from MS Office. It > could be opened from a link on the splash screen. We decided it would be a good idea long ago, and are since waiting for Someone™ to actually make that happen. IMNSHO, this is more important than having Emacs run on Android (hint, hint). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 27 04:32:23 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jul 2023 08:32:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40689 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOwQ3-0001h9-Ir for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 04:32:23 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:46213) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOwQ1-0001gw-4J for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 04:32:22 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FEDE240105 for <64871@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 10:32:15 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1690446735; bh=9yHZuTPb7yNNzV8OiSMWhmErXtqu8FO5/9JDp6fYNLk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=OAohaHbb68JMaVjnvK84PJbX5ZVyz4kpn+rLsxTCRBCXBxSt/caYg/ykmeLoYJnEj BWiQY4fR84HUL1EvbwbhxoMk+VYcm7YAGs9lYyf56uxsSmwEBTkodM+XOYWG2fICzl RPFzX0vf8+zYyVRpx2VKuhQZXQ9xXwMTHxOfxy5qlVLpP+HzgYGqmeaSJ0cJ3romy4 Cwu0oH9HO8eaLPDWIN1QW1LFbX/JmdJZAWRkMIbhY5aGMGa9uFZRjnuNkZCc6Yxa5U uhuVMrL8l+D5nEUNoobvKVjUEsNP1nROdwNELb+a1bvQVU+cLVLxYzUrg1yejmUsDU TrFBF0KLG5z1Q== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RBPC24hNqz6tmv; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 10:32:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:32:27 +0000 Message-ID: <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: Po Lu , 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Before concluding that this suggestion will cause trouble to the > over-crowded menu bar, we should talk about where this new items might > be placed. If we place it in an existing sub-menu, then the problems > it will cause might not be that grave. For example, how about the > Options->Customize Emacs sub-menu? My instincts from other GUI apps tell me that common places where customization staff is located is Options->Preferences, Edit->Preferences, or Tools->Preferences. Options->Customize sounds like something new users would be able to find. >> The Emacs manual holds a description of the location of user >> initialization files. > > In a 55-line subsection, plus another 54-line section in the > Appendices that describes the Windows-specific quirks! I myself had difficulties finding what is "~" on Windows. > To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it. But I > actually wonder about something else: what other applications have a > tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the > customization menu? "Preferences" gear icon is something I have seen on toolbars. And for init file, it is not a common concept. Another idea could be adding a button that will open init file right into customize interface (near "Apply"). Side note: I now tried to look into Emacs "preferences" via menu and it feels a bit awkward. Options->Customize Emacs-> has "Top-level customization group" and "Browse customization groups" do not sound very different and I would never guess (even knowing Emacs) that "browse" implies short overview of all options. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 27 04:53:53 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jul 2023 08:53:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40722 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOwkq-0002IS-Sw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 04:53:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47922) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOwko-0002ID-Jp for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 04:53:51 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOwki-0007Mo-QN; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 04:53:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=5yUvy0tWzFQ9JmJAibA2BkI90dx99bIvpgNTZMaJi8k=; b=NVlK8X26zY2Y v3SF9h0/xGvmpd3A2i0tlu1o9RUwSHb6alMoEF9PxZjg9n6mF9EKVBluZuakQpuHPc6Wg7Pbh7C1e p8xp1QZrHyC91x+5jC55jJ+WUxPcyTwqyB/7b7uN4bL9uks5Lf2IesFO5lo2PefEK8CE+X6F2jdbz /Lp6r9CGKeohgI34fjeN1ndukeZkVBQbSM0QO0HI2BCfVu09wkDg3bkqTxQQiMD6iE2T+KT8IN6L+ NtSGce/jBakOA1BOjO0/ZSchtNvYTC9JyR6KEY/qD7FhgI2JT/DPJJ6CA2mhjdWb0gdieT0OqF+6g Bnrcij1Qk8sDLvfciWdIbg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOwkh-0005BW-Cy; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 04:53:44 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:54:33 +0300 Message-Id: <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:32:27 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko > Cc: Po Lu , 64871@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:32:27 +0000 > > My instincts from other GUI apps tell me that common places where > customization staff is located is Options->Preferences, > Edit->Preferences, or Tools->Preferences. > > Options->Customize sounds like something new users would be able to > find. "Preferences" would be a silly name in Emacs, because every customization in Emacs is about "preferences". > > To be fair, the tool bar still has some free space on it. But I > > actually wonder about something else: what other applications have a > > tool-bar button to access the init file, or even just the > > customization menu? > > "Preferences" gear icon is something I have seen on toolbars. That's a separate issue and a separate request, though. > And for init file, it is not a common concept. Exactly my point. The easy-on-newbies interface for customization is not to present them with (a largely empty) init file, far from that. > Another idea could be adding a button that will open init file right > into customize interface (near "Apply"). Why? > Side note: I now tried to look into Emacs "preferences" via menu and it > feels a bit awkward. Options->Customize Emacs-> has "Top-level > customization group" and "Browse customization groups" do not sound very > different and I would never guess (even knowing Emacs) that "browse" > implies short overview of all options. Did you read the help-echo strings they display? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 27 05:08:19 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jul 2023 09:08:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40740 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOwyp-0002gA-Gu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 05:08:19 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:46077) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOwyn-0002fw-Ew for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 05:08:17 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D2E7240029 for <64871@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:08:11 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1690448891; bh=psxtP9M5qiDDCyeAiSpTnMqf446TRa5XRGIbLgMXNCo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=AC7/oJJH4F2608r3yCcH4ub1CulhWfwNFeEr9YbEzIPgSVWX2vXdls55KmA+XPgBF yWZqBzKEnKuQOSwNJdH8lGkux37gu825p8SnYdEDTnB0U0bxqzejO24f+Q6a5Cux8a lvDl245joxRrf8y5vI3T6QdL3f2U2zTvc3z5/98MvdwVegHOGOKaeRB5vj9Cc+09zB vMucVTDCrODyaj5dcPadAAnEfqyMutGAyUnB58Mzu/wneiOZ7wg/RHXLE4aDuRhY1X RHe/sXpjeTUAlmjj0tuyCPe4RJTDyk9FdSL5EdK91RBlCPxSjRahXtbYvKhqF6Ki6x /D2eg4GbJ6R3Q== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RBQ0W05hDz6tyS; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:08:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:08:24 +0000 Message-ID: <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Options->Customize sounds like something new users would be able to >> find. > > "Preferences" would be a silly name in Emacs, because every > customization in Emacs is about "preferences". Sure. I did not try to suggest this word. Just tried to explain how I would search customization when exposed to an unknown GUI program. I agreed with your suggestion that Options->Customize is the right sub-menu. >> "Preferences" gear icon is something I have seen on toolbars. > > That's a separate issue and a separate request, though. I meant that having something about customization is not uncommon on toolbars in other apps and thus can be one of the places new users are trying to reach. >> And for init file, it is not a common concept. > > Exactly my point. The easy-on-newbies interface for customization is > not to present them with (a largely empty) init file, far from that. Good point. If init file does not exist yet, it can be created with top comment explaining its purpose. Similar to initial *scratch* message. >> Another idea could be adding a button that will open init file right >> into customize interface (near "Apply"). > > Why? To make it easy to examine source code of the "saved" changes right after using Customize buffer. >> Side note: I now tried to look into Emacs "preferences" via menu and it >> feels a bit awkward. Options->Customize Emacs-> has "Top-level >> customization group" and "Browse customization groups" do not sound very >> different and I would never guess (even knowing Emacs) that "browse" >> implies short overview of all options. > > Did you read the help-echo strings they display? Not helpful: 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me. 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization groups" - what new information does it provide? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 27 05:50:08 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jul 2023 09:50:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40767 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOxdH-0003lT-Tm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 05:50:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44254) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qOxdG-0003kr-3D for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 05:50:06 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOxdA-0000c6-Do; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 05:50:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=uIBHGSbbPplHaTLUwoufETjbpnNDIFtkDtI2vhYHLr4=; b=OvmL4QHqzBl6 DI4lMQVzUIEK//QKBCzzEVopO+THxECpukZLdJVgO3h7xS1ZyQq9zfh3yKgbxIOBXyeEHrAsmQEFj E3/Kj4zgGYzrf1HJHSSF6X3Nw/zdjPib4zj+u3yZydEh5fwCHIK33xfkEEP2SHkI8DQLdkd94pw2S b9bD4MiSe4NU+su5LmxNot7LUBH31ko8kTL3aretjEiFgqv1JveBMwY1ELQW1DeLUB+1NUD9sNirs XFN8RKgb3MxxhVQ/H5xuG0cwXgGmk7czSSmXJoMvfJG6RKROr9p22pFlhNCvB3yLG7VQz1MuENCuY Mj1N5wpeDg26gPuzIU/1ug==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qOxd9-0003OZ-Ts; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 05:50:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 12:50:48 +0300 Message-Id: <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:08:24 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:08:24 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> Side note: I now tried to look into Emacs "preferences" via menu and it > >> feels a bit awkward. Options->Customize Emacs-> has "Top-level > >> customization group" and "Browse customization groups" do not sound very > >> different and I would never guess (even knowing Emacs) that "browse" > >> implies short overview of all options. > > > > Did you read the help-echo strings they display? > > Not helpful: > 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group > called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me. > 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization > groups" - what new information does it provide? Feel free to suggest better help strings. (I really don't understand how are those "not helpful", but that's me.) 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d2d82d01209e0ddedab2b27e50359952; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 12:29:54 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <83lef1naev.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 27 Jul 2023 09:19:52 +0300") References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87tttpx60o.fsf@yahoo.com> <83lef1naev.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 20:29:48 +0800 Message-ID: <87h6ppwn9f.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21647 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1400 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Are people who want to customize Emacs likely to use the > Options->Customize Emacs menu? If yes, why not have this one > additional item there? If no, why do we have that menu at all? Users who need to customize Emacs don't necessarily need help to find their initialization files. > So we are now using a smartphone as the reference platform for making > UI decisions? Smartphones might need a whole new approach to the > Emacs UI, and a bunch of very different UI decisions. They should not > dictate what our UI looks like on desktop and laptop machines. Actually, the amount of horizontal display area available on smartphones tends to reflect that of low-resolution desktop displays and computer terminals. Emacs UI currently works well on either. > When did you last look at modern word processors and their tool bars? > They are, in fact, much more crowded than ours. Nevertheless, each of those items is used frequently enough to justify their placement there. ``Open the configuration file'' is not, at least in Emacs. > We decided it would be a good idea long ago, and are since waiting for > Someone=E2=84=A2 to actually make that happen. IMNSHO, this is more impo= rtant > than having Emacs run on Android (hint, hint). Well, I need the latter, but not the former. So I'm currently more inclined to make the latter happen, sorry :) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 27 08:47:56 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jul 2023 12:47:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40868 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qP0PM-0002r8-0i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:47:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40882) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qP0PI-0002qD-FA for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:47:54 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qP0PC-0008Gc-Ic; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:47:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=50NAFvT3j5ZbQB5ccjvrC3JTkckGvZ/l4rOuJgfkAkE=; b=F0lgfG9v2wnF J6OiLKouwetEtT7t7mTdG99mRT2647oX0ysDw/ips/HVbNBAcSt7/y48EbPEoImp9YSSuvYZngfb8 RlApb1Carn8cVz2HC31XDvIacAzVrk2usDO5S5mXbkeRW/ByaFMdtcNHkViX9MEQ3t2oCnoucaefu Kxrsezdu/6mqOJJhfepErmD9kxvC24MNgvfKbVHxIQA52z1ORjyOmPWHZqPJc+c+/UupOFR0GG2YM l7wKuSiY/I/UwA5yzBgof+Zo0ukxmsZdI1xTyYEk8bu32T41QS/vVF3+lPeimiH//TiIlkQfeA2qO YrOyQk6nKj2RZCwX8a6oMw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qP0PC-00066G-26; Thu, 27 Jul 2023 08:47:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 15:48:37 +0300 Message-Id: <83zg3hldui.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87h6ppwn9f.fsf@yahoo.com> (message from Po Lu on Thu, 27 Jul 2023 20:29:48 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87tttpx60o.fsf@yahoo.com> <83lef1naev.fsf@gnu.org> <87h6ppwn9f.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Po Lu > Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2023 20:29:48 +0800 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Are people who want to customize Emacs likely to use the > > Options->Customize Emacs menu? If yes, why not have this one > > additional item there? If no, why do we have that menu at all? > > Users who need to customize Emacs don't necessarily need help to find > their initialization files. Not necessarily, but possibly? Not every menu item we have is "necessarily" used. They are there because they could be useful enough, that's all. > > So we are now using a smartphone as the reference platform for making > > UI decisions? Smartphones might need a whole new approach to the > > Emacs UI, and a bunch of very different UI decisions. They should not > > dictate what our UI looks like on desktop and laptop machines. > > Actually, the amount of horizontal display area available on smartphones > tends to reflect that of low-resolution desktop displays and computer > terminals. Emacs UI currently works well on either. "Low-resolution" meaning what? 640x480? It isn't an accident that HTML has special meta-elements devised for mobile devices. If browsers need that, I'm quite sure Emacs will sooner or later need something similar as well. > > When did you last look at modern word processors and their tool bars? > > They are, in fact, much more crowded than ours. > > Nevertheless, each of those items is used frequently enough to justify > their placement there. Not IME, no. Many tool-bar buttons go entirely unused. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 28 04:09:45 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2023 08:09:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43582 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPIXh-0000un-3Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 04:09:45 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:44137) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPIXf-0000uT-6J for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 04:09:43 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A57C0240105 for <64871@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 10:09:37 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1690531777; bh=xxOsVn7cWZw7UvRDw/R7mMBaCeSLUxui9V5tLM4HJyQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=qH+VDvDU9bk5xHxv7lFzB9aKO2txzNprqYWYkk9ItSll6rl9dz/ywIUttqMTGCrGv Py9YOvVN93yL2yqg3Kt7tIOiEnmzHNcLymPpwbek4c4MZKl0hpB0Fc2PcNclzLDSOT vJU1g1OrV3PIL8mjCemyoM/By49A+iP/03nzy1a/p/7hlD9QLt0XJuaB0DB2US50XS gPLnyFKLRL0JzJxZu9etKiP+5Snui+vGgYVSHrNPRjYwRbHhvBr/+1R1HeIFyXgrN0 +w/UALgDqEFIHrXtYo/YyS3M/ukjW2fmGI7tM3UnePddchAiUSxhyHUcgKdV25D24X YXNHOaCAz2ZzQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RC0fT0F9yz6tsb; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 10:09:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:09:51 +0000 Message-ID: <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Not helpful: >> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group >> called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me. >> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization >> groups" - what new information does it provide? > > Feel free to suggest better help strings. (I really don't understand > how are those "not helpful", but that's me.) What about 1. "Explore all Emacs customizations" 2. "Abbreviated overview of all Emacs customizations" -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 28 08:03:13 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2023 12:03:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43947 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMBc-00047f-RP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:03:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56414) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMBb-00047S-HK for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:03:11 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMBW-0002u1-83; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:03:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Bq1Q2h04NWlsIYGjHHiRZTv/7mt0yFAFwvyoqXz2oTE=; b=jBUowBpr17lH Gu/Y7ASjX1J6x93764b41afpW9+jggOGtTqhQ5r/FHI8tCi9mgeZe12Z7I6OGCSq6DFbzi9uLzjHt 5/kQbaI3dWV62qDvP6LHDlCGJLY9B5w3QnUjQIKsXyxuh7f7tHGa1zGuejoPv3/EEmcnHMpdrvg1Y ao19Z916tFi54061rm8hqkTEc85HWQu7na7G7KYQ1LlhuGvQxlNhBjgtHUwmRQUZ/9s2fJs39cPkO 5BUT6J7vX7HwoB2sU0aXpLTDd9WPWY0B5ITkalddUxUldClz8YHqHbq7SKah/mkLqYEiW/mzJR4VQ 9bg2TUNrgugxPLJ7VvFZvw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMBQ-00074Z-Re; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:03:02 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 15:03:53 +0300 Message-Id: <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:09:51 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:09:51 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> Not helpful: > >> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group > >> called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me. > >> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization > >> groups" - what new information does it provide? > > > > Feel free to suggest better help strings. (I really don't understand > > how are those "not helpful", but that's me.) > > What about > > 1. "Explore all Emacs customizations" > 2. "Abbreviated overview of all Emacs customizations" That's inaccurate. How about: "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions." "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 28 08:24:13 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2023 12:24:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43998 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMVx-0007Hc-HC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:24:13 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:39917) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMVu-0007HJ-S4 for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:24:12 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A823F240028 for <64871@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:24:04 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1690547044; bh=2nOkv1zEOw8XO4mISKH+v+3xtSOvVQbmzQ3VgXGvZRM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=TCZ6Oo0/xXRVU+6JwvP2RTHxA9lAb8iAqLr3SNNOSPv+aEV+zUYjHfstrLPh4Un8W naPx0/wd0pMcbwwVj9KDXmsFjIDmoT7u422VL5jABUSM/o0E6H24lTXLPmSCrpU+CQ HU89AcNFktmx9ExEf/WXHcBHtwKiLRTfRR8qzz7t4v628wFFuqH6zYBgoZOg22JUL1 z0Un9Cc481/7yVcB4nlAU+dLuYDaLV0DOikooYfimfAen2UkEpowikTFegQXGE7O2q 0ETz/y/wrUlpx8DdLXWZiH2T/ChPnG6ExcpbF+gyKKd6rq1joz8vltsmtXbefsEdfz nlstrpYCatBzA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RC6J34tbhz9s0l; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:24:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:24:18 +0000 Message-ID: <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> Not helpful: >> >> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group >> >> called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me. >> >> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization >> >> groups" - what new information does it provide? > ... > How about: > > "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions." > "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options." I agree that it is much more accurate. Then, may it be acceptable to change the menu names to: 1. "Customize Emacs" 2. "Tree view of all customizations" These are a bit more familiar (IMHO) and we still retain more accurate popup text. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 28 08:42:48 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2023 12:42:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44071 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMnw-0007qu-01 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:42:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36146) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMnu-0007qf-Nw for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:42:47 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMno-0000EA-TO; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:42:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=pO1eIrXv0OO1A9BnLLcGB1kWDtiScvfnffcHoMdfWWY=; b=KaqZHIlUhQi+ zKFdodHDIVZf2l5jQZe7BIGy/d6J5Z/e5SJIiXhxym7jTTbg+PMARIpLYpiHGxkebIrVHhoh3/5ME oEbVMGhKwa5smhVIMyXuvrO9R5+N/5P4LBfcFB7R9/JaCU3UbElHkhLW887L5FQETiXO+TtKyH6rK QFm0YZcNTOqBsDS2hSjaDWMCYhn/71kHp5BIDowkFOpCot1IB26f3l4WiFY4RHvt35Bun8RXzyxld 6U2wE3kO0xYG7E7ErhE/y2F9fkbHeRGzz/fyjxs/GiLnvLWHHnglxybRhogLecKXVQcnRyv+A8SbN YmcV1+jE/AFmAjtAPymceg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMno-00037k-C5; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:42:40 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 15:43:33 +0300 Message-Id: <835y64jjey.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:24:18 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:24:18 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > How about: > > > > "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions." > > "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options." > > I agree that it is much more accurate. > Then, may it be acceptable to change the menu names to: > 1. "Customize Emacs" > 2. "Tree view of all customizations" > > These are a bit more familiar (IMHO) and we still retain more accurate > popup text. I think the current menu items convey additional information, so repeating the help-echo text will be less useful. And in any case, I'm very reluctant changing names of existing menu items, unless there's real trouble with some name. We arrived at these names after long discussions, so they have some weight. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 28 08:47:19 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2023 12:47:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44075 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMsI-0007z8-Nb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:47:18 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:59565) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPMsG-0007yv-AR for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 08:47:17 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6922C240028 for <64871@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:47:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1690548430; bh=VgMIPgEuI91CGvGTVmMxVli9u6bUzA9qNtsOfp4raPg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=c8ygaioIsD7zekVzVNykmmbRAr1xljfb0rSbZNSjWL99Kl7GrAosGAFvBAvZw6Psy olYONffQCLg8XhR4oNNMwvbuvr3NCiepp9ZB7MuqaR34H9aq1lsdtsehfRg/Z1xb0P O/z0AsSaUnfngT5IbJEq0WAnho2RqTzR18A9PyMRlE4zkpr6Jc/zJjt6aOxgMMRtx4 WXfpR3Dt4rXB50YxXZSJV8lSRrdmxzFihcEL0BzkwbpwvFxh4fZgJyymviBtdLrTiI c5Vr3jWZUC7oTNxfz/GKIn0AOq0sdqQmSIfrq1QER00/cPbOmCCykBBwynbkRpP9RO RFMNVLizksKOQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RC6ph3nZhz9s1H; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:47:08 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <835y64jjey.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> <835y64jjey.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:47:23 +0000 Message-ID: <875y64qk2s.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> These are a bit more familiar (IMHO) and we still retain more accurate >> popup text. > > I think the current menu items convey additional information, so > repeating the help-echo text will be less useful. And in any case, > I'm very reluctant changing names of existing menu items, unless > there's real trouble with some name. We arrived at these names after > long discussions, so they have some weight. Got it. Updating the help-echo will also be an improvement in my book. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 28 10:15:30 2023 Received: (at 64871) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2023 14:15:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45786 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPOFe-0002O6-0h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 10:15:30 -0400 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:5060) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qPOFa-0002Nw-PC for 64871@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 10:15:28 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246630.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 36SEENjD005798; Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:15:25 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2023-03-30; bh=t7wKCwc7mQsRrBaFAY0lGfw0QnP5NtHnybT08qAm9Gk=; 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Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:15:21 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Ihor Radchenko , Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file Thread-Index: AQHZwVEmvO5XVZUeEUO+3gEXfSe13a/POHzA Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 14:15:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> In-Reply-To: <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|SN7PR10MB6499:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4d6ef39e-c01e-4e6f-02c9-08db8f751459 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4d6ef39e-c01e-4e6f-02c9-08db8f751459 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Jul 2023 14:15:21.8141 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: BNZAlH65r562wrHELsu/YpQHdpVqsmwEemTpuBjw8lkVLNAe1c36TiF5VVNddinsurMaaTfMusLOYCJrxSNDsw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN7PR10MB6499 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.254,Aquarius:18.0.957,Hydra:6.0.591,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-07-27_10,2023-07-26_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2306200000 definitions=main-2307280131 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 1txMRH0tvoIcq4kN7d8pyt6cTDJ5mItb X-Proofpoint-GUID: 1txMRH0tvoIcq4kN7d8pyt6cTDJ5mItb X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871 Cc: "luangruo@yahoo.com" , "64871@debbugs.gnu.org" <64871@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions." > > "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options." >=20 > I agree that it is much more accurate. > Then, may it be acceptable to change the menu names to: > 1. "Customize Emacs" > 2. "Tree view of all customizations" >=20 > These are a bit more familiar (IMHO) and we still retain more accurate > popup text. FWIW: 1. "customizations" includes anything a user does to customize Emacs, which goes way beyond what Customize does. 2. A user "option" is a variable you can set using Customize. Customize lets you configure both options and faces. The word "option" doesn't cover both (in Emacs). AFAIK, Emacs hasn't chose a term for both - words such as "setting" and "preference" have been suggested in the past, but nothing was adopted, IIRC. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 03 04:08:51 2023 Received: (at 64871-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2023 08:08:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50754 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qRTO7-0007Uv-L1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 04:08:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37728) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qRTO5-0007Uh-7z for 64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 04:08:49 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qRTNz-0002dN-Ng; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 04:08:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=e2JX851bdZZ+KxcKIrwhA4PjVZxxUbnkzI/+ekElkhM=; b=b0d5ciaI7fQj USHOCQC3iCClmtgMelfLK8pErLqD5nYu5YJ8+7r5rwJVFofg2GdtGO0LIzTtjuAyNu9Zs9E3OPCVW ehCI2rlmrPnc4GPVgBvxw9WMdeftPyMQqy2JapWMF6H0xzuqGKUK3a5zP8/baDB/iqx//UaBACARU PTJokoipjvtWILOzlJCfj3omG4+Dz9//CCxWXiXsA86wUkeujx/Vf7ga0GbZHWBhZMJhlrP6h/uFQ 37CyVmI2Aoq0T6TAr3yztWcdUth0nK458gTq0j7ZMj1k0TgIIWPk0MTL/j0hmT9oIKX+oHBe3nV4X 9he8dDr650it4REj6aq8Iw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qRTNz-0001Qv-7E; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 04:08:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 11:08:53 +0300 Message-Id: <83r0oky2cq.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:24:18 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871-done Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2023 12:24:18 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> >> Not helpful: > >> >> 1. "Top-level customization group" has help-echo "The master group > >> >> called 'Emacs'" - it does not clarify anything for me. > >> >> 2. "Browse customization groups" has help-echo "Browse all customization > >> >> groups" - what new information does it provide? > > ... > > How about: > > > > "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions." > > "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options." > > I agree that it is much more accurate. I've now made those changes on master, and I'm closing this bug. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 03 04:36:38 2023 Received: (at 64871-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2023 08:36:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50798 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qRToz-0002gq-SF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 04:36:38 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:48753) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qRToy-0002gZ-55 for 64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 04:36:36 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9501B240101 for <64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 10:36:30 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1691051790; bh=XH5mt2im/FXs1/mwE6irXpFRZOCP9lUWtZvg9JCipsw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=ix/8r0MU95yCmOERljJJ7x/nhrH55X7a1guXjBBmMGgEUNxpm49r8DEU94pXgN7PF QGH2qiqbz7vuiNWo5/8VhqWLM/A9Kjm4DVgER4Nfrt+wiAVD7SfI/GgbVbXkCJOsCd k1Bj+/rNsCDpTFidu6l1epMeLn1v1qgtsd1SdR4dV8Okxhq2yzXFlJ/ycXi9sM49b4 t0bnp+XQgS5bkRcEoDbdcQbA/bUFpwpdSlSBdIyr/pIdaPDlu+1a/BRFaAhod+OUxm apLlvwh/1ir4/oO5oh8GQphO/SXKJ210cBckvbTRfA0BDlzYxzlGk04FTEVtNXmO+U Y+Fto88+7v3Lw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RGhyj52KFz6txf; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 10:36:29 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file In-Reply-To: <83r0oky2cq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> <83r0oky2cq.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 08:36:45 +0000 Message-ID: <87lees1q02.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871-done Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> > How about: >> > >> > "Top-level groups of customizable options, and their descriptions." >> > "Tree-like browser of all the groups of customizable options." >> >> I agree that it is much more accurate. > > I've now made those changes on master, and I'm closing this bug. This was just a side discussion. My original proposal was about user init file command/menu/toolbar. Should I consider my main proposal rejected? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 03 05:07:57 2023 Received: (at 64871-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2023 09:07:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50876 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qRUJJ-0003e0-7b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:07:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58764) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qRUJH-0003dm-Dv for 64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:07:56 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qRUJA-00026Z-1J; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:07:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=fps8nkBXwSMMwypk0QBsA6uVPdsi+i73B+jtYsfwB1g=; b=IAF543VPl2uO PK2L/EYZhM7ppa9hE5xdPEnPM+SFC2GdHLq9zqoOWmuzxCMP9tfd8Eenc8JrcYppiSlN9Q17/ebKm L7IFLBA16gOCSv9QYtLkRdVU+DLtysiZsvPq+woLO/JLgBQ7j7wrK5DHKkfOWnitAwmWABWTXCY3K L9g9cnPeCPO+3hbB2znMQmKR6l6pWXFTQnJPrJOuCcFMNIfnfN5xf8tauv000dYBSL9EGnf0YXrW+ BW4sRS43btoc6pmFtAJrRJVAK0AVmCnr5+OHmksytOSwkuL9Mo4V8s20zpa7cQ7PeTBvPdRjbGy3O K1r8snkBhZKwtyXxVuGs5Q==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qRUJ9-0007pS-GQ; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:07:47 -0400 Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 12:07:57 +0300 Message-Id: <83a5v8xzma.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87lees1q02.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Thu, 03 Aug 2023 08:36:45 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#64871: 30.0.50; [FR] Add command and menu item to open user init file References: <87jzun7x34.fsf@localhost> <871qguxirf.fsf@yahoo.com> <83sf99ncfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ila57o10.fsf@localhost> <83bkfxn392.fsf@gnu.org> <87cz0d7md3.fsf@localhost> <837cqln0nb.fsf@gnu.org> <874jlofods.fsf@localhost> <83ila4jl92.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkfwql59.fsf@localhost> <83r0oky2cq.fsf@gnu.org> <87lees1q02.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64871-done Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 64871-done@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 08:36:45 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > I've now made those changes on master, and I'm closing this bug. > > This was just a side discussion. > My original proposal was about user init file command/menu/toolbar. > Should I consider my main proposal rejected? I don't think we've found a good place for this in the menus. If you have a good practical proposal, feel free to reopen the bug report and post a patch for discussion. Thanks. From unknown Fri Jun 20 19:54:50 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 11:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator