From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 64692@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.168962505930049 (code B ref -1); Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:18:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Jul 2023 20:17:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50983 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLUf5-0007ob-9w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:17:39 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:60098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLUf3-0007oN-4X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:17:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLUeu-0004ee-BB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:17:29 -0400 Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLUes-0007pl-1P for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:17:28 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:17:19 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1689625043; x=1689884243; bh=8tx3TzOH3IkbA2O2+9p6KwDlbrE1kbDR1J6EN0ELM5A=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=PPqoUTUq44SoWD36ljX8hkMgXgFtvk507jMzKFUQsQrBVsyyC9rsbFBEzESpvNhxS qoXjgFDAwO9kQnwR3fDcmgqO+/e+HBM+BP5kGR43C2P6KRuTp4C/q0t1Va/Ok2Hssn ly0BV8Wn4pO41xKAr8J0sB8RlHKVPAPij0Amdz6V1ZMdyEAM+kPoo0DOU4r+XYD1ao 82y4lHNx1CoP5FxRuXAE4NT0ul189W0+fVjRiub9qI9KXkZlAXq4bUGi24TK0dgkgl C/62anta7pjMF3PyVH+LNN1hcpmrU7SZsJtttcgDeHPuHHLyWhcuC0So8IlcF3eRGq l0iQnta9eT3wg== From: uzibalqa Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.19; envelope-from=uzibalqa@proton.me; helo=mail-4319.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Have been looking at the documentation of menu-item described as (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) This requires a good understanding of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation. But I do not see a serious attempt to explain this. Whereas the Emacs=20 Lisp Reference Manual isn't designed as a tutorial with explanations, the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" simply refers to the=20 "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual" for understanding Cons Cells and Dotted Notat= ion. This means that the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" would benef= it=20 from some real-life list syntax. Currently I find it short and far from rea= l-life. For instance, whilst it cam became natural for users to make menus. it woul= d be=20 difficult for them to understand that=20 (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) describes how "item-property-list" would not produce a list inside a list, = but a=20 single "(menu-item ..." list. In general, the construction of menus should be better described as it is c= urrently=20 too theoretical in the reference. From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: uzibalqa Subject: bug#64692: closed (Re: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax) Message-ID: References: <87jzux5x2g.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 64692 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 64692@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:34:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1689676442-19608-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1689676442-19608-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-lif= e syntax which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 64692@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 64692: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D64692 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1689676442-19608-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 64692-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 10:33:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51631 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLi10-00055B-Nn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:33:11 -0400 Received: from sonic316-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.148]:32944) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLi0z-000550-Fj for 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:33:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1689676384; bh=7wZuVQBBJ9QqmvxloDpKcULEsDp9jNr5ljUZpwTO1Lo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=BhQWcMrMzUS3nUo3XpaHohPXBbsT6n/ZG8VTCIx3lE2+VnBquFjkDWGJyO+fdu6BdmcWnhvVPF51ZWXZXQZM3BeW252fPKJY4IAO/Eg2UymgoKVw/49rB8cnygflR7hpLu/EK3xomBZBklKbiiqmi98EaXpgsj4iRreWXFFITrNcu407vzj+vvty4i4wazOPZYHJZ8VXh75ci6uvamQ/nNuWm9zGO09scOrVzubN20KPB0dBofd+eRa0Zi/cEVU0vZattiRPOOVGa/1nYLGEj6BIs7sBkmhOgXBvqa5SDvVSWDm/MU5wqWx8RD/5vkbfysDd/leeKYGO/aWojZCAow== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1689676384; bh=S5FYCNdwNGnsUnSfKm3JmsGPGau3iEX5+8MvLx01jak=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=q1bw+/xFid3uiy2jBWrL1OUic4UxAmW4m/d96yIw/93nehNNT+rr6fjwZGxwXqs7qCCNq6RhWOBabtRR0yEYe5y6DUALTj9oLhZ8KKFHWMQyqtAq4m5nDTP2JE6NpUBJRjhwywFl2J1fD6/BsUGcSIJUJnK1aFWo45mxoFOGl8r02EmC1w3m1l6RBTioU5OWONLt1+rohKVk6ucWpnHZj+pLPRK/bSZGNdiDRao+lOxxstshFkHUapT2q0hTXZewme3CrtBlP+VWwE19bqMS1/uDOr/I0ebmHegGq0TZyktvXCArghcUe7kNYQti+TReOZPjTqe1chAXfKhtptLxgQ== X-YMail-OSG: Hp7BK8AVM1miBEvJmgLbS4U5oTPKz6S8iPzwQmq5dpw1b7zcIqmMM42yTY.HmmD wT1RmK0Wp7WEc.ebM7ufFdMWoGT3CrtK.XZ3B_7Sg0k4u_OU.l0XG1WZntggaDRXRTQVKWw3c4.S fvAbFBqMYUo1mOFJv.YNN1xSZwBHol8mgwFHbTyY92iOr538jI_t9D9Wdrq0Bk6Nwn2JwbhyRlnE h0gdl1XMTqD8pjxUnUgkeVKeB_smG2yuJxiWCDDXpDOHVod4uJxwa3a3jp3wBfl0A.Awl_HOYLN8 jqRDZoyB0GclzMQ5yLDOlwPPK8TMuq5h3IFGjz6s41X1erzDYQcPL0W1CoUP6w.E_.5DrAiM0zmT Kng6jjiq7oYsNTDCk6iKOXqeai5LGwauWr0yHQItvs4KdvlAHD55NlaZXO7Y7hbjCvPNnI70_fdS tRrUOQdTtdgvWNDdtUv1BovMTqwZs17hY9krq8eMZY7kh5Qe5Wzv5x1KYl2ObJQVcUzKMv2ZXqvr yGnp9UqZBfZjlB6Yn_cAFk2OszeWy5M3Q.L5WVLTL7TDEhScGj_h5mI7gPwGhbTMCBUXvaCagHVX OfI8qyumAr4MEPR_QlPEJd4uYwsX.D81xhvrJXBw3DYk8kwu9M9HnHzQgntnGRTw6rujVSdhIRrs y7SH22L8z4xaA3mx77zETcyIIKgd6DcTKmfJZb_rcWoKAZZgbv7PraTTvNOwRjw7kGDObNtaTcqN KH8xY0ZDSTiw5n6F7nx_u590kz43_sNXYKnyzlOf4xg8I8ju0J8rcfuEVpAS5l2ZH6RbjvCVR890 A0yBeccsCaI_L7vXSJRs2.C2PqRoRb0pdYWv7HZLi5sS6qNgfzOwte3jUc1VH_o3vMHLFsj0X8nc Vdinfha13AlpHZoF5EDJwXQSjv4xLSnCs8BVS7WfKRocEcO4OSihXxB5CyMNCnm0qcKmX34c04p. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 09e61c593f29df1596199005f6110a52; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:32:59 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax In-Reply-To: (uzibalqa@proton.me's message of "Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:17:19 +0000") References: Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 18:32:55 +0800 Message-ID: <87jzux5x2g.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21647 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1339 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 64692-done Cc: 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: > Have been looking at the documentation of menu-item described as > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) > > This requires a good understanding of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation. > But I do not see a serious attempt to explain this. Whereas the Emacs > Lisp Reference Manual isn't designed as a tutorial with explanations, > the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" simply refers to the > "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual" for understanding Cons Cells and Dotted Notation. > > This means that the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" would benefit > from some real-life list syntax. Currently I find it short and far from real-life. > > For instance, whilst it cam became natural for users to make menus. it would be > difficult for them to understand that > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) > > describes how "item-property-list" would not produce a list inside a list, but a > single "(menu-item ..." list. > > In general, the construction of menus should be better described as it is currently > too theoretical in the reference. The node containing your example is located in the Emacs Lisp reference manual, which contains two adequate descriptions of both dotted lists and dotted pair notation. I see no problem here; closing. ------------=_1689676442-19608-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Jul 2023 20:17:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50983 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLUf5-0007ob-9w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:17:39 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:60098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLUf3-0007oN-4X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:17:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLUeu-0004ee-BB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:17:29 -0400 Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLUes-0007pl-1P for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2023 16:17:28 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:17:19 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1689625043; x=1689884243; bh=8tx3TzOH3IkbA2O2+9p6KwDlbrE1kbDR1J6EN0ELM5A=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=PPqoUTUq44SoWD36ljX8hkMgXgFtvk507jMzKFUQsQrBVsyyC9rsbFBEzESpvNhxS qoXjgFDAwO9kQnwR3fDcmgqO+/e+HBM+BP5kGR43C2P6KRuTp4C/q0t1Va/Ok2Hssn ly0BV8Wn4pO41xKAr8J0sB8RlHKVPAPij0Amdz6V1ZMdyEAM+kPoo0DOU4r+XYD1ao 82y4lHNx1CoP5FxRuXAE4NT0ul189W0+fVjRiub9qI9KXkZlAXq4bUGi24TK0dgkgl C/62anta7pjMF3PyVH+LNN1hcpmrU7SZsJtttcgDeHPuHHLyWhcuC0So8IlcF3eRGq l0iQnta9eT3wg== To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" From: uzibalqa Subject: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.19; envelope-from=uzibalqa@proton.me; helo=mail-4319.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Have been looking at the documentation of menu-item described as (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) This requires a good understanding of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation. But I do not see a serious attempt to explain this. Whereas the Emacs=20 Lisp Reference Manual isn't designed as a tutorial with explanations, the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" simply refers to the=20 "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual" for understanding Cons Cells and Dotted Notat= ion. This means that the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" would benef= it=20 from some real-life list syntax. Currently I find it short and far from rea= l-life. For instance, whilst it cam became natural for users to make menus. it woul= d be=20 difficult for them to understand that=20 (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) describes how "item-property-list" would not produce a list inside a list, = but a=20 single "(menu-item ..." list. In general, the construction of menus should be better described as it is c= urrently=20 too theoretical in the reference. ------------=_1689676442-19608-1-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: Ihor Radchenko Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:37:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Po Lu Cc: 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org, uzibalqa Received: via spool by 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D64692.168967659919877 (code D ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:37:01 +0000 Received: (at 64692-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 10:36:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51638 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLi4N-0005AX-BT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:36:39 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:59645) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLi4H-0005AG-M3 for 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:36:37 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86490240103 for <64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 12:36:27 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1689676587; bh=qlL2xERnrrqwAMuJ0fkXdz2W9extMQJR3Dhe2Xf2dpI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=iEsOXISpDegk2yy5BPcD2HR70ncyyl4yuVPX0V/pPj1DieEacYa9NoAOx6FJLnZVd WKUyT8Y8ZQUmT3psq4n2Eckvhdp3YaAWK65SCEZAWa/oFY/N3qTzZYYqJnnuFr9TYW A9QTv7+mK5nUQK9mRx2SjOGt4shGkm6s3okHOJ1LF0VGJ5iGHcdTpN+pNeMDhY4NtT oIV0NXE6omu12/hovdUM4R2itaU6X77UXguzXQUcAdb7OBNvyBz55ltuSwdQPvQAzz nbyb/DZtgXB3Y3oUU1sUx4Z/ThzFV5m2kWibF0CTs7XfR9ONg9wun3GByjfgwbxf3k nlvK3p43QVzqw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4R4wNV2SK7z9rxK; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 12:36:26 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87jzux5x2g.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87jzux5x2g.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:36:36 +0000 Message-ID: <87h6q1v74b.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" writes: >> In general, the construction of menus should be better described as it is currently >> too theoretical in the reference. > > The node containing your example is located in the Emacs Lisp reference > manual, which contains two adequate descriptions of both dotted lists > and dotted pair notation. I see no problem here; closing. The problem is for new users who see no need to lookup Emacs Lisp reference. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:54:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: uzibalqa Cc: 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D64692.168967763821947 (code D ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:54:02 +0000 Received: (at 64692-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 10:53:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51657 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLiL8-0005hu-GZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:53:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33492) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLiL4-0005hg-Ht for 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:53:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLiKw-0004Ph-QM; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:53:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=MWftMlb8776PHQ3aF+RxcRgYhQ1GqgR/nhhPyRosTqw=; b=SORWdHbzrbbu sqm9OSlcKIfy3y8IAT8/aXMcBmh3ZoUo1ajkvIBLG1ek/yjTCv+D4wJD2nG1/fjFgz2i2WztP8Aov sJZ7Vluc7BCEab5I9QIHUBOlVo8Msln+J73h4R6OhPe7R1EQYSha+lpTYoLzwOF5Bqg75t8Ci/1OK J4a9JiccOfiDw+q9AHS6dgwkb1Mvy8RyFeWWCwaDqFg+WAsQVo8QUAivq4QVx4C6zasdTLWrpN7bO d+hPxygcy4jS2VxeKHRVqSH+RLLQhE6eC/XvGG7NrYe07raRwOFWJyP8kROsEVv6qTmGNT8x47PPr 4fiSbMJ9lTS1L0vjrcS2dw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qLiKw-0008HY-3a; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:53:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:54:13 +0300 Message-Id: <83pm4p7ane.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:17:19 +0000 > From: uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Have been looking at the documentation of menu-item described as > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) > > This requires a good understanding of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation. > But I do not see a serious attempt to explain this. There's a node "Cons Cells" in the manual which explains that. The cons cells are so central to Emacs Lisp that it is impractical to explain them in each place where we use them in the manual, or even provide a cross-reference in each such place. > Whereas the Emacs > Lisp Reference Manual isn't designed as a tutorial with explanations, > the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" simply refers to the > "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual" for understanding Cons Cells and Dotted Notation. > > This means that the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" would benefit > from some real-life list syntax. Currently I find it short and far from real-life. The Introduction manual has a node "List diagrammed", to which you will get if you type "i cons cell RET", which describes that, with pictures. > In general, the construction of menus should be better described as it is currently > too theoretical in the reference. I disagree that it's "theoretical": it's quite practical, and even includes an example. So I don't think we have any problems in this area, and I'm therefore closing this bug. From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 11:20:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D64692.168967917724503 (code D ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 11:20:01 +0000 Received: (at 64692-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 11:19:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51712 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLijw-0006N8-Pw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:19:37 -0400 Received: from mail-40140.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.140]:54947) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLijr-0006Mp-KU for 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 07:19:36 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 11:19:14 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1689679165; x=1689938365; bh=Gpy30NN9iFsZO0XkBE/aFqg1jXgCaEhWWmvq9HotMjs=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=M3gvOGB1AlwaEb27iULEy19obmMMRxLtKLCA8NQAVkNHf0kZ0gTSc4M/hM8wteBLn DPgO6tTxpbrJQSpW3qp/2GIxjGhb0QnxSjXi7bLlVtY3wdPTKSdSzV48y0M9eVrkT5 hG7N0Ayuf5p1cVhxcSlaLjHTdxS+QDdCOLSbK2IfX87Bj0ok7Wmv1hsNtL48/m83mR IWFfHJID3WYmyBheOSMfBEzPJ8j3JyuEoOWdB0A4WnzuBOjeMsc4Lx0Jc+na6efJjv DYuCr2E5Ej9U3+u9w98XzA3nHFkqsEMu7gS23qXBXrOLIc28CnbHD0of8jOoZfkLDR wQ3uYJ9t5ko8g== From: uzibalqa Message-ID: <9mpth_kCQ9iv3_-Tk2wLiHgbpRyj12nL_rNlECoWNsqlkzrCzZDRaCABpdCQXsLyuxPVJD2dyvKlyrxzTMFPVYAfBww6lZqk8DAaWD_Kvk8=@proton.me> In-Reply-To: <83pm4p7ane.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83pm4p7ane.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, July 18th, 2023 at 10:53 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote= : > > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 20:17:19 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > > the Swiss army knife of text editors" bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > >=20 > > Have been looking at the documentation of menu-item described as > >=20 > > (menu-item item-name real-binding . item-property-list) > >=20 > > This requires a good understanding of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation. > > But I do not see a serious attempt to explain this. >=20 >=20 > There's a node "Cons Cells" in the manual which explains that. >=20 > The cons cells are so central to Emacs Lisp that it is impractical to > explain them in each place where we use them in the manual, or even > provide a cross-reference in each such place. The suggestion is to improve and expand the section on Cons Cells and Dotte= d Notation not only in the reference manual but also in the introduction manual. Unwi= llingness to not even provide a cross-reference is a disservice. =20 > > Whereas the Emacs > > Lisp Reference Manual isn't designed as a tutorial with explanations, > > the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" simply refers to the > > "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual" for understanding Cons Cells and Dotted N= otation. > >=20 > > This means that the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" would b= enefit > > from some real-life list syntax. Currently I find it short and far from= real-life. >=20 >=20 > The Introduction manual has a node "List diagrammed", to which you > will get if you type "i cons cell RET", which describes that, with > pictures. No, I am talking about a direct discussion of Cons Cells and Dotted Notatio= n, not about list diagrams. =20 The specification that=20 (a b c . dlist)=20 results in a single list should be described rather than having everybody= =20 figure it out independently. Whilst using a b c in not so bad, if I but=20 such code in a package, most experienced programmers would complain that I am being too cryptic even though they should have the ability to decipher whatever I'm doing. Real-life examples of interesting situations from the= =20 emacs code base should also be used if you want people to transition from toy descriptions to real life work. > > In general, the construction of menus should be better described as it = is currently > > too theoretical in the reference. >=20 >=20 > I disagree that it's "theoretical": it's quite practical, and even > includes an example. The examples are incomplete because making submenus is avoided and there ar= e no calls to 'define-key-after'. And because the reference is not for examples as th= e experienced ones insist, that information should be put in the 'Introduction Guide' ins= tead. Besides, now that it is suggested that calls be replaced with keymap-set-af= ter and 'keymap-set', the reference and introduction must reflect the change to the= new calls. =20 > So I don't think we have any problems in this area, and I'm therefore > closing this bug. How very convenient when new users are telling you that the information is = not useful enough. From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 12:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: 64692@debbugs.gnu.org, uzibalqa Received: via spool by 64692-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B64692.168968414611171 (code B ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 12:43:02 +0000 Received: (at 64692) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 12:42:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52008 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLk26-0002u7-A2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 08:42:26 -0400 Received: from sonic302-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.147]:43560) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLk21-0002tq-CX for 64692@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 08:42:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1689684135; bh=PEvY+FHPFPTFo6UX6V0OuWgPL+LsfAV/ijW9j0rkwjU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=Pulxn+i5mi6NqHOHbvaqwqSb/qMf0f9rfYD1aQH+RP5ZhNXauud4bnm5ug+JXF6wWCQL38RqiM8owX0h8+NtbAwyl8qJzOP6E6/VPOZO6nbI15Okwb4d2kh+/tlHD73JTyHyAwz3Jg5ZOhsHpQQ9NHSk9BbQoIluIEgpVhyRmV7VsQpKMAAHxh7D8m/CpFOhHVG+dKgdhpgh8ZJO5SbkD1UVGGy7z5pmiwMcflBuXAfrG0XgqRNv6TiK8Vt7awAhAvbxFsz5xvED1TPiASI/VdbxmPW5jG6P0gjBunfaXJHZArjDWdVVVAqjiZJaqpRTxwUIlKy5cPMaACa9L2Hd4Q== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1689684135; bh=IUfZQ0J1Jxo1nSpU4pfCY0U3a691AW4bfsRvVEJ2eCS=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=Zr7NE7vi8h/I6xHoKqlya9x58iLMh055J2+8hPzWLsdzfAOohAsqZskMd5VALA2hIgUtOiUR6NZipGRyu6+MjvmRsnLnK/9CMJShWmMQdkuqltRbq/ATz+mDEOs1wp7++CgBSKpOeTMMo/PAvWHphZW/lz5Hssp+HRPU5nUbFX+Vj1/mWPzKVy2gxZrpYfCh4yURle1T8CkNquUPic2eCH+vOtuOsDicH4egNTokNq3XS7JwdQYdqFtbMbssvr4E0DpR1O9e+81QlXxjUQ4AjU8lqWlAU1QugSE8Azk1+vmTE4hXRHApt1It/v7UguUsrBUMA9ENvijjq+bhVsYGbQ== X-YMail-OSG: poOORBwVM1lUrMS1GdfbC9aFRa4KmqXDqjG8GBe.aRy5.G1YcIrA4xyGy0kgL3F QawkgVj4oJKZLi45f5KgcczFaPPK1PVQCXfFzdKRm5mNrhpyKOCAxnZr9_hxNsxFueYUhQx5dSFr 30EVBu906vFiZ2T8Kz99J7RllGFj8sN.DnqKclAbp8CdoMeDvVzxlvAn2PNeMD52iCWNAMGFjJIj U8cRLZZ8ic5Ty_.TZPfyWyvu7xWvjkcSe0WuDR4Et0acGHEfbFzpUb4iV35AH0InZRxjFmoP8xIa m4mItf_prVNLtJFc.nvFj_hBLPcjFxXcIvhBQpVtizy1x0B.L27rROSWFjk6tabutIF899PQuUDZ 5kZIbB.mAgkA7NA1M22CAJkSuajwKi4N4mZKNO0LjCGDxHdmkB1JzLV7WqA5mlyrqtMPCcQTMNlQ izS20vbzBo0LbpfDfntCeTJnRAcbNA80TrdPBfT53m6D89R.lAqBUyr5_xmX7MUo3j3rh5kla70e U92WIUrIFvOb6pZjhLz0ZwxL4DD6V.ly4m5JNRZd2UTkYapPlY3icaZ4NjzS1mhr7m0H7wDEHruI TmQgmUSHIDJAuUhpRu.QPA8AIFpeGQZBI1C0BdXadmG33sTQGu_ToG63LmLxEYL7a3elbWk9RqWU EIV8jl1FPsJgnAkMPexDM9rYh8u3cnqmTahrlVjLfvjxrf0k6_PMxE3AMlFX6ue6rOrBW6shD2bt jJpUFIIDAquFNhE2Hpnl4IGh3JlJjmjSJO5iMddZ0MUeb8Ln08eH8MuL5L35ZXUPG8MIujaqeNel ki2WogVmDMjPi58YgtWROimziNxX6vX.v0_K5O6BFI0EMkpzdzQA6sVWTNuVf_pIFE5eMp25dgcV 7EZ50V5Eh19.2dq7dM23KKR2jw2z7tcaaekFsRDX_9.V6EEPCjVVRRQace.0SQsoANr0tg8HhCAs G2WXOkT0rMldnc6I9kGix95n1yrneyPghtr7pi302.hO.dEEOp1U1lw4pLBgOZcOCkFaw.8XJC_p UxruZoYJONHqEio744m64QShLHuE5yxx6FYGSqlRqOGAcMthqVd2RgriVvbjjmAOqRnIQmxAmZ8R Ztj7Njs4S3hFnMh58ZL9Se3gkBgmQx2CNnNEJ8L8eJAma26KO7lBVRzrnemUpWtta2QNd6Nwx_FX OKGHne_rmwRwIRYUHOGjO4yfLNX..ad.8dvxBRct14J2952wl8MI30O_.hjM2QhT_WrZ6PP021Ra IHAYNkuEeQuQ3u1gfjh.o65smOFdY6CNb8Ve3BhY86ZmpQ1olYrIKSr_J.EYWag4XxqAU2xmdreE KNKEdxVboeq583.t6TsK6Tw2fcfGkivw_qyyEl2R8LuvhuzxCjH1Z1lzvoZV8g2m_P0v.PaObpjf Im7KKAbONvRxvARGT0TnAENMWruWT9P9_rq2sGXpw8khbG5jqt6LnuUZfF3audEssmtxSTrNHS0a 8ScUsdcJu9m8ejLEpUEIRY5uDLWlHpVnw.YiH2qch15kfn6wtl1631iEc_8CcZoONbCF8a_z3hFa XzP01K41z2mYzPPvsa9y8j7UQCZnVQ14qKBj8xkju04cYXKoswiXbkdwT4K41f8_7a3bbc3yDmaW ldS7ffmHWIT3zuWezD6dH_iSrlLdPjgqiT1WgBo8TO.lZnwIfv08t7xM72PA7ZPW72Y8aNtczDIl QCKpyd5dtfFtlCjeyNoVdpVo8bUZLq2xg1gvfIjcdIt6csj0KV6ggt5jEaTx2s26IgHEwmB0UUPk dRRNx6twbgaQZ20o8ekWM5RFU87ke9mIZVjQTwzS042ysWYvKjI_UxmTKXMwsNymeaHCddCWCbnW zUe1.aNygVuI4hx0wCgK62XwsTSrWzW2WxUMnPbxxuW8f3HS8vT4Odnr2U3NNOZMRmdR0eF1rgWE IgUpPXWXVc2UaHy8jEyIf0Ct0eFtwAAjJhaR217fIVVFgAMfKrpK_SC7t8PGD85qzppz2lu_Sx_E t0loETsFR3_1bxJYllZE.1fnhmwmPI7ct4xGllnT4MFZiWNSTnnrsfak0Rqv_Q8C12wRzXnILw47 lj3QHG4yVmsRQfs382AL.aiTAUZ4Ih.Udia_IafI2qEcqQ3Lo13MhDP2z0cvjip5UyawDIWm8y3d PRlSUxYJ0On2wy5l1UimAsdOOMoru.Cv3kSgGiczStYjWoyIqd46GYOMQGVnJ2raeniVD4JycaM6 _f3wVL9aanhT1fQ4y1hwjRFUFz_nz_EWeUNALyM03_rgChCHEQWAmn8x7q1iMX.tKeDI- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: e759ca18-444d-49e5-a48d-66034593e58e Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 12:42:15 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9dc5f54fc-4dvcl (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e8abed5df375551981d6e043c09f9bd3; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 12:42:08 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87h6q1v74b.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:36:36 +0000") References: <87jzux5x2g.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6q1v74b.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 20:42:03 +0800 Message-ID: <87fs5l5r38.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21647 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 249 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > The problem is for new users who see no need to lookup Emacs Lisp > reference. If they are reading the documentation mentioned in the bug report, they are _already_ reading the Lisp reference manual. From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: Christopher Dimech Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 12:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: luangruo@yahoo.com Cc: Ihor Radchenko , uzibalqa , 64692@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 64692-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B64692.168968511713158 (code B ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 12:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 64692) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 12:58:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52065 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLkHl-0003QA-B0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 08:58:37 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:56533) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLkHg-0003Pq-Vb for 64692@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 08:58:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1689685102; x=1690289902; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=2GE39XFkBVvBv5F0oFz5msMCfxZMlQ77gh0Nvb97vew=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=qHsu2bun7k1gunoqFCPoUvuUuQyPCNb9BHxlplJ2dHtJc3ISARZG6XY1d2hcn068jzNokVi VDoV8ZMireIp6or0L4cBMka9tw8rqsXc40L3suoBCeeI4vjjVdhxFjNmqnEcycfTrSWhNQVE6 Jb5YyB0xo1BUlrRhD/Ei4fQdCn4U0PyLmJWo8yYo+aeWbkeDPIxLwRCMFQiSv6KpY2TEmUE3O dSyyymk5h8RI3FIXIPfgmQqf5XJBvaMRQhUaUXI9Eb+Nb9BDIY/m18MSGwBOoqmfKa/ga1hXn DhVKzEEYv2M3TGT0ND9RpRVAzGxm43KwVbglYUGLt8Z+DM3T4PiQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs07.server.lan [172.19.170.175]) (via HTTP); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 14:58:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 14:58:22 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87fs5l5r38.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87jzux5x2g.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6q1v74b.fsf@localhost> <87fs5l5r38.fsf@yahoo.com> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:c+yhBY7BszfErBLSVrypvp8yerq0W6Hgh1adgsGHOzFOWpBrxy/+jqbywdrcw70cZnTnX x0lvt1XUHGHuz3gxDePWRcJuNmjV0Tr1GksRyiteQIU+V2+gze3MG0dmhntZBmkc/mLZNxBx5nde xOccuGTxZ+8Mqhh8mqc6deahZKvprdwtw8gC2aQb/TcLtfklSAf26iO7K2u7PXdy7ZFy/22YirN5 rBP7op/m52LGrJuhTz6slKtPzQnofeqf87sY3n2U2iqlL5BE9LwH1aSrrGDQALjyEzYvIz1IDLC/ 5Y= X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:cqzf3JuuP68=;ILbnsEBX4t7p28YGr8USLld9wiR 52XlrNxrXo/hXouklxul8R2t4UuocDQM7HpSUjCd+ytVEsjc9os8yIOsfLRURewwu5eEhGsWE ehCVixkTOW36SzLwpr1q6VQm5iKWbQHco2uzXw0Ripe8jV8YD3J78ZpP93TPFXe2E+6n6d1ql 5ZvgwprVudlqEk09ejZTnPGR8eOcHXIQ1KdqenvouFygYY7hUNy7MXel/n5Hdhcqfbcv9SZPt HbYmkc5f2Zo/t37VkylIekD81zIqPxSdF/pPF0UNjSPZniYbP6uOErijvQyzCHGwZ3u+7aDRl jTk+kb/bZ9vpr58w2kIHqrnAW09p6I898RySjkDvi7xyei0vhk7ks83jSfF/YlnuSt5+C2JPs HGNJPsbAXUuEBXGgtfdnvJZEijVWgR3xtW/KoIaMwfRqSDlDG2um3UkPmM96RMTJCwKNp+B2H tzSaoTbHW1eUUbTmbrd1w587mglyTEX+tQ9znDK3FUHwGfKwTKQ3eJSerNHVWRzYVxo2iBHDP /+j81U/A65KnEgKmzYC71Yy4MvFBrrAyeJ48mpQk82TMTjQxkSRrM54kU6hL3WnMvjLuXOlsw OPlzU+xVPuVsr7i4D53uwNS9vn+gtxkiFcjTPpg5BC30cWYYwFWqNAasXKT03gIfEXtTHMeBW oiEhBF/kn+rgRMb/4myXYISGRC2YzzVHDprzvSYeIw23mxOWj+x4sIbNQGEqDHE0GZcwQR/xH UdWvAFNZZCyRQmbUHCcwUgisdVYPS7TREVXKZqBG8xt0+IsR0slf8pI1xIP5QMQDFXwGUwJXV iou/JAhMZ+GtfSdNg3IVSECpdbVuXYtyrK3zyynrZF1/w= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:42 AM > From: "Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text= editors" > To: "Ihor Radchenko" > Cc: 64692@debbugs.gnu.org, "uzibalqa" > Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notatio= n with real-life syntax > > Ihor Radchenko writes: > > > The problem is for new users who see no need to lookup Emacs Lisp > > reference. > > If they are reading the documentation mentioned in the bug report, they > are _already_ reading the Lisp reference manual. Reading it does not mean understanding it ! From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: Po Lu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:25:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Christopher Dimech Cc: Ihor Radchenko , uzibalqa , 64692@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 64692-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B64692.168968668316112 (code B ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:25:01 +0000 Received: (at 64692) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 13:24:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52172 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLkh1-0004Bo-Gx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 09:24:43 -0400 Received: from sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.146]:42849) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLkgy-0004BW-Ny for 64692@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 09:24:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1689686674; bh=fjIcdmX/RrsxwetkosPiEDuXYQ/76Fsz9CI9Eps+jY0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=ENUSeYCPPh7g5n/8fvjH/oi4Z8rgU0Srndvi1LzxwF/ha3PjmrT9u/7pCf4OnuoLZjZxw/JaKdIio4uv+IyBnynpMJdUZQ0K+8VVKljOJ71HaNIs9hZ1vY1YSZLSQLuZAr3hbDx6N6a2xH4JuJmmeD+y7wAzLnUh/s1U3bFmbpT9OPBmWYIqyVQCVTWqqDI2yakH5Zx7M0dGYtKFaGIqfYHObS1VoDiKtEUhp5koBcd9eo8mJqug9TEXqRcocbz1SD5cW5DgbGu9D6B7iNEwao220ONIG9+/AIBBPmoVRsleCvS8ZwIlnKzfnSgoBAWNOY1Rbr7biiRKG9xdMhyANg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1689686674; bh=K5X/BZEDLea26AhMhPlIqzrG16VWwNdWkxxdbYvxM1Z=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=SEYplFArEj7aFAbvIECem9/SgqFQfujt57W+qrtOqZYHiHp6+h3hgTgF+6UljXBiIb9GLzDJMn+LU7wOD6LpV2lwE5Z81tjGzdoe9YCekRPbgZNcWzibPEk4cCOfe9stsECgFu+jMa8rqZparE22BsuQ+cN+pUvw21VpqCbM3XG6phqmS2nThcfswnW/BdaphY3XswElglGj03zk570tzQB4H/FOJdatANSXsJ/JJZgV7DEEI3CjXfiYiZmee2ds0yHTAR9lY9cfV2PEUmA0u2bB0rDxuh4C4zy4oNi3buEDv3sgLd5sjP2sFZLDpcDfUYNEXS8fg+6idGgR9paAIg== X-YMail-OSG: GVm0sGYVM1kT4JUCNHNW7SWacxmgy6Fq3efzKyo7OhiBowzc5jH2a.MKMiHbER2 3ZscNuibKUL0JKitS_DUKolPpGvPRSlAnOpuT0a63LEi74seECmD3u19jWFNcYfPHN8hylmOp9bw P.25IcnCQdj6HrTtcs0zQ4g1ONubq3BOUCKJ2wxrdM.sB8Kq3rmVUA.oFFHwtZt.UwTsa4tEzbWu cJiqdf1uvHaTGNTE2o_.5s34NVlrgmGyspsxJ1dnzY_HLexr1T9UUKc7LDP5sclE48NGhSbFZh1R DIHMhHBf8WiGAb0Gy1vPhGulPDlI8Sf6JIDKWn79ovzQpyGRRKO5pnfG1UvFwX7_iEzBPdCDHsBx 7mmAAWgM12lyffFPNajBmCrQgUSIjUDiW88hFio8HRZX1G.DVjDbX5i2Z53MjNgY9juOHNyzOVm9 I6fF0fHIzqbUfX_UOa4T5ZMR3HcSLCTTgIKtfuTJqpMYwi27TYNauWow.I87kUGtTSZM9NI9Lv0h K2DcSoHWegpdQCV4GA7XJ_Wrr.WRTc7uCZwLm0ulruXaYPpyle9uoDwLSvsuh0SFZ6TSTCE461B2 iD1mPFfRTTbsn6QrjWGSLXZHqtw8IYqII0fHiCr7MOI0vFzgs0CM4u4000emGLFW00569BZllTXh OabaRIDU4xMdRT1P6HkVDJHJDITmaJ8HFNg24WLyfDDxi0qe1mIO7meWOc5LbTo7I9wx7SKpiglj MdepjfPp1tfRxyXBuSlYJmh1TqPHnCnXwzsCgFrK5nhq2K7ALCpzk1mflvanOJF9ZZGW9VsDlDkT vMV5Ve9Ntu8PQAhYctmC89LIKur8ZceDTFdRB7cQTNzqNgyvdipc58MAe2iPA13NeCIwhc8o_apQ v1i_eFj6Kio2jD7A2mQOzyrm9kyXiyFyFxlTjyFF7p5kcT23FRhJU9R4riKhgjvatlJUEg4H1RRd M5R_vM65NEGuqZHuGxMOKiEd44KGiiPEfl1oO8KO8GvgKVfKO3xb0Zz4bMgXX4lwf77p3HhNM52n _HPxiKyOnSCnV07A0zUoU1YF4vPsD0EvDGbhc0TQUswDQ9DrPkiYRt3UAl052yOfoPUCb2xzUTRk z9KuR.br_bAYErRXRYkYFDdvBP2E0AMKBJTH.KyuCC1MLd7G0mBDLznrV.rdG.6ClFJahhubkkeo WMxm55lxUryxBONFGhptaP5wVbPAHF9LB.WjhDR55RKjrF13B8DzIowlRByapBIbgSufDwTfoWEZ X8AHQUA6m1QbdRs.496uXrsDqvLRZS34B0OLsirxags3T9msgm9C5CqHgto70UxWVJWax3Wsimfa 9hk2dXcBgMLSRjfQTNWV58M9b8P.qJyaTzBltVvRi6ITA.GqbEnqEhY3WhC9niZfgAKQBLxROhHZ 9wPPaxCWpBQkFVNOnKAiICmL6N8xg71jtJgGx7NZp5pKOp_zUkBxCPrS1m3_HmegJsTrW9syhUwB G21Qzk8hxXvbyGtgh6Ab751x5kqOJa2ENDMutaBbtX1cfwIJw1D1xA1gVgnhV0B2Np6A5cPxmK.q BGbKmPE4GYXRsvz74v285u8RcCDBl_DZThfO5e5IAqiS1Q0NzcFHaHPEZGmskTMz3cIpsdSAkn7r DbuU2eV4B6Nku2WGwtE26Jv0vsPEG6vycD_5rsY095JXJSaGDyOw1BvNnr5n17.feWfUkcyZw_Vw SJrnGlMgjYMHolLytfMjJ772.66bicHZbCUy5eyV4jpoiNbsMGP8HI0HYsovxBmfMDvVDi_bNJ_X ZYRvu8s9tVPJre8OcTNNBWUuMoER6F3BRde0ZnreuKc7H9wmpeTCteOlclVHDf2Xz.A6zRMgJngW TWbifMI8fEpRjw6vuKpog66YwtreZXcEoPjsuTCYcGZEEifPqx.mznjfPpkxOUWoCWz_luWdHFQB uZRsI5VoQCdafOiTJGCX2.uAtt30xLQVgdQ_xvqo7VCERpEju61LFfaEouRr0p6UFWnQR0n2LogM CmVuE_sYaJAL_XEZoQC7uG2f_90JhmhGq2bHjGpKKSgKUkubKyusGOIye0Wc09mSd9HHGhz76DBz 7r26MHeHKPcCg1QnGRuvIle4nlumNavqb5Qj7wK0fkvoY.4_oP1S5kfcRMyx.VN2AEBrSU6OzG5Y vyijbPjl6IwpLobB_UkzqWreLrrhUKKSs_456OoElc2KbHZF89pkzI_SkO97r7nVVihqspmGLyfg k8fMPma5Uji4ISijGlUOqoPOH5.sEyhm79xgfQKNTNK7h038xk0jsT9pOoaaRbGo.1d4g X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 2daf10ab-f8d4-4484-9c5e-a287c0ebc56e Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:24:34 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9dc5f54fc-jctj4 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5636c0b3d171b59d385ccf373fc6ec8b; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:24:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu In-Reply-To: (Christopher Dimech's message of "Tue, 18 Jul 2023 14:58:22 +0200") References: <87jzux5x2g.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6q1v74b.fsf@localhost> <87fs5l5r38.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 21:24:21 +0800 Message-ID: <874jm15p4q.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21647 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 200 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Christopher Dimech writes: > Reading it does not mean understanding it ! There is no space in any Emacs manual to repeatedly explain basic Lisp reader syntax every time it is used. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 99f63709-db0c-44c1-bfbf-08db87b25ecd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2023 17:13:56.6940 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: wRcJ2fXv1xGACUDjyprlObbiYN52W58Uo8PtbM6Rr53k79WyZ+p0whaMkG1lSmVpCNBlFbey8RT6vUMXz6j5LA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLAPR10MB4929 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.254,Aquarius:18.0.957,Hydra:6.0.591,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-07-18_13,2023-07-18_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2306200000 definitions=main-2307180157 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 8itEva1YPWQw-khn683M2Jn8tjXNXhLS X-Proofpoint-GUID: 8itEva1YPWQw-khn683M2Jn8tjXNXhLS X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Whereas the Emacs > > Lisp Reference Manual isn't designed as a tutorial with explanations, > > the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" simply refers to the > > "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual" for understanding Cons Cells and Dotted > > Notation. > > > > This means that the "Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" would > > benefit from some real-life list syntax. Currently I find it short > > and far from real-life. >=20 > The Introduction manual has a node "List diagrammed", to which you > will get if you type "i cons cell RET", which describes that, with > pictures. That node doesn't explain dot notation. It does have a link to the Elisp manual for that. But it doesn't even show an example of dot notation. A reader may well wonder why there's a link for "Dotted Pair Notation". It would be good to show Lisp notation for some of the cons-cell diagrams it presents. It does show that for (violet buttercup). It would do well to say that this is the same as (violet . (buttercup)) and the same as (violet . (buttercup . nil)). IOW, show dot notation as a succinct version of the cons-cell diagrams. And say that the Lisp reader can read this syntax: (violet . (buttercup . nil)) is read the same as is (violet buttercup). This is a useful bit of Lisp knowledge, and it's missing from the intro Elisp manual. Nothing in the intro Elisp manual presents dot notation. The most it says about list notation is that a list of items a, b, and c is written (a b c). The intro Elisp manual _shows_ dot notation in passing in a couple places (e.g., custom entry in init file), but it doesn't explain or even mention the notation at all. It at least points to the existing explanation in the Elisp manual, in its nodes Build a List and Lists diagrammed.=20 But preferably the intro manual would itself introduce the notation briefly. The intro manual goes into the whole cons-cell diagramming thing. It would do well to tie that explanation to the Lisp notation for lists, which includes dot notation and the identity of (a) with (a . nil), and thus the identity of (a b c) with (a . (b . (c . nil))). > So I don't think we have any problems in this area,=20 > and I'm therefore closing this bug. I think this enhancement request should remain open. It could reasonably be on the list of other possible improvements to the intro Elisp manual. A reader of the intro Elisp manual should be exposed to this syntax, IMHO. (a . (b . nil)) is a beautiful depiction of the corresponding cons-cell diagram. From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 17:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Po Lu , uzibalqa Cc: "64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org" <64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D64692.168970081819624 (code D ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 17:21:02 +0000 Received: (at 64692-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 17:20:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54131 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLoMz-00056R-U1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:20:18 -0400 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:65258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLoMy-00056I-B9 for 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org; 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But a reader of this menu-syntax node won't have a clue about that. Please provide a cross-reference to it. Defining menus is one of the first places a new Elisp user will run into dot-notation syntax. Another is the complex syntax for font-lock. There too a reader will need to understand dot notation to make sense of the syntax spec. > I see no problem here; closing. That's too bad. From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:46:32 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#64692: Better descriptions of Cons Cells and Dotted Notation with real-life syntax Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 17:34:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64692 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Po Lu , "64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org" <64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D64692.168970159021102 (code D ref 64692); Tue, 18 Jul 2023 17:34:02 +0000 Received: (at 64692-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2023 17:33:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54188 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLoZS-0005UI-Go for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:33:10 -0400 Received: from mail-4027.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.27]:45969) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qLoZP-0005TQ-8y for 64692-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:33:09 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 17:32:59 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=2kigtjki3jdknlhryyihs2tuhe.protonmail; t=1689701580; x=1689960780; bh=OP3YJzuV7DDCDG/fOwq6Tn23zoeo1VOYae+LGLrIJRw=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=HTwXoc/dQUkg0bAdoMQi9x2ina1XeXb+2uXCqjkBwnkU3UFTu5PDx0n7TrG3jh0M8 5XnCEfy6P9Wmy9iMgih6s4n2Jt2be2/4HJ2zYdnfj2efESwzoq92S5b7ikzx1S0761 Oq1JFdXVvU+Elq6SMkczpXD28A6/wpTs9Ie3RypliVLFcJgvA0g49UEhL3IubBvy1/ qEpVq3AocIe3xpPVVZdG08IK94eAKoLYoVi+fMSx5r/e0nol9OqnCoInsY2ZHma9Q7 uAkopbvsd4yg52dgEklXQYs734dra2mzzwcwT3e+2I+IwN04qr7ZsYot7cLSfRIR7b 5H8oGoA4/H99Q== From: uzibalqa Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <87jzux5x2g.fsf@yahoo.com> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, July 19th, 2023 at 5:20 AM, Drew Adams wrote: > > The node containing your example is located in the Emacs Lisp reference > > manual, which contains two adequate descriptions of both dotted lists > > and dotted pair notation. >=20 >=20 > Yes, it does. > But a reader of this menu-syntax node > won't have a clue about that. Please > provide a cross-reference to it. >=20 > Defining menus is one of the first > places a new Elisp user will run into > dot-notation syntax. >=20 > Another is the complex syntax for > font-lock. There too a reader will > need to understand dot notation to > make sense of the syntax spec. >=20 > > I see no problem here; closing. >=20 > That's too bad. It is too bad for us. With people who should know better barking orders from their lofty place that everything is fine. Same as the socialist=20 politburo in the late 80's. A system fucked up beyond all recognition.