GNU bug report logs - #63800
30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions for built-in packages

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions for built-in
 packages
Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 08:05:05 +0000

Hi,

All the Emacs packages distributed via ELPA share the same installation
instruction:

    To install this package, run in Emacs:
    
    M-x package-install RET <package-name> RET

However, this command will fail for built-in packages. This is
particularly a problem for older (<29) Emacs versions.

May the instruction be corrected?

Original discussion is for Org, but the same will apply for other
packages distributed with Emacs. https://orgmode.org/list/878rdbwlf3.fsf <at> localhost

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #8 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 06:46:58 +0000

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net> writes:

> Hi,
>
> All the Emacs packages distributed via ELPA share the same installation
> instruction:
>
>     To install this package, run in Emacs:
>     
>     M-x package-install RET <package-name> RET
>
> However, this command will fail for built-in packages. This is
> particularly a problem for older (<29) Emacs versions.

You probably want to set `package-install-upgrade-built-in' to non-nil,
or use the package menu to install packages.

> May the instruction be corrected?
>
> Original discussion is for Org, but the same will apply for other
> packages distributed with
> Emacs. https://orgmode.org/list/878rdbwlf3.fsf <at> localhost

Message #11 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 06:59:02 +0000

Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net> writes:

>> However, this command will fail for built-in packages. This is
>> particularly a problem for older (<29) Emacs versions.
>
> You probably want to set `package-install-upgrade-built-in' to non-nil,
> or use the package menu to install packages.

Sure. But only in Emacs >=29 and it is not mentioned on the ELPA page.
For Emacs <29 ELPA instruction simply does not work - attempting to
follow it will just produce unhelpful message that package is already
installed.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #14 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 19:06:38 +0000

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net> writes:

> Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net> writes:
>
>>> However, this command will fail for built-in packages. This is
>>> particularly a problem for older (<29) Emacs versions.
>>
>> You probably want to set `package-install-upgrade-built-in' to non-nil,
>> or use the package menu to install packages.
>
> Sure. But only in Emacs >=29 and it is not mentioned on the ELPA page.

I am not a fan of the option to begin with, and wouldn't want to
advertise it.  The official way of switching from built-in packages to
ELPA should still be to use the package menu.

> For Emacs <29 ELPA instruction simply does not work - attempting to
> follow it will just produce unhelpful message that package is already
> installed.

So what would you suggest changing?

Message #17 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2023 11:01:12 +0000

Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net> writes:

>>> You probably want to set `package-install-upgrade-built-in' to non-nil,
>>> or use the package menu to install packages.
>>
>> Sure. But only in Emacs >=29 and it is not mentioned on the ELPA page.
>
> I am not a fan of the option to begin with, and wouldn't want to
> advertise it.  The official way of switching from built-in packages to
> ELPA should still be to use the package menu.

I will not argue about this. This bug report merely raises the issue
with current installation instructions. You are in a better position to
recommend one or another way to install/upgrade core packages from ELPA.

>> For Emacs <29 ELPA instruction simply does not work - attempting to
>> follow it will just produce unhelpful message that package is already
>> installed.
>
> So what would you suggest changing?

I suggest changing

    To install this package, run in Emacs:
    
    M-x package-install RET <package-name> RET

to something like

   This package is a part of Emacs since Emacs XX.X.

   To install the package in Emacs <XX.X, run:

   M-x package-install RET <package-name

   To update the built-in package version in Emacs >=XX.X to ELPA version:
      
   <instructions to install the package that actually work>

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #20 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>,
 Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 05:08:41 +0300

On 31/05/2023 09:59, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Philip Kaludercic<philipk <at> posteo.net>  writes:
> 
>>> However, this command will fail for built-in packages. This is
>>> particularly a problem for older (<29) Emacs versions.
>> You probably want to set `package-install-upgrade-built-in' to non-nil,
>> or use the package menu to install packages.
> Sure. But only in Emacs >=29 and it is not mentioned on the ELPA page.
> For Emacs <29 ELPA instruction simply does not work - attempting to
> follow it will just produce unhelpful message that package is already
> installed.

Is that a problem with the command or with the expectations?

When Org is built-in, it *is* already installed, isn't it?

You will also see the same message if you try to use 'M-x 
package-install' as a means to upgrade any other already-installed 
package, whether it is built-in or not.

Message #23 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 06:04:18 +0000

Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev> writes:

>> Sure. But only in Emacs >=29 and it is not mentioned on the ELPA page.
>> For Emacs <29 ELPA instruction simply does not work - attempting to
>> follow it will just produce unhelpful message that package is already
>> installed.
>
> Is that a problem with the command or with the expectations?
>
> When Org is built-in, it *is* already installed, isn't it?

I have no problem with the command. I have problem with _ELPA page_
mentioning this command for built-in packages.

Org is always built-in. If a user goes to ELPA page, she most likely
wants to upgrade Org. And ELPA instructions do not tell how to do it.
Basically, what ELPA page for Org tells will not work for any common
Emacs version in the wild (and will not work for older Emacses that did
not ship with Org as well - they are not supported).

If you look into my other email, I suggested indicating on the ELPA
page when a package is built-in and also add instructions how to upgrade
it. That makes more sense _for ELPA page_.

This bug is not about `package-install'. This bug is about ELPA web page.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #26 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 15:34:09 +0300

On 15/06/2023 09:04, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> I have no problem with the command. I have problem with_ELPA page_
> mentioning this command for built-in packages.

Cool.

> If you look into my other email, I suggested indicating on the ELPA
> page when a package is built-in and also add instructions how to upgrade
> it. That makes more sense_for ELPA page_.

Not a bad idea, though it will also require adding some metadata on when 
the package was added to Emacs.

Perhaps a simpler alternative is to stop referencing 'package-install' 
and instead point uses to 'M-x list-packages'.

Message #29 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>
Cc: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 15:35:48 +0000

Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev> writes:

> On 15/06/2023 09:04, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>> I have no problem with the command. I have problem with_ELPA page_
>> mentioning this command for built-in packages.
>
> Cool.
>
>> If you look into my other email, I suggested indicating on the ELPA
>> page when a package is built-in and also add instructions how to upgrade
>> it. That makes more sense_for ELPA page_.
>
> Not a bad idea, though it will also require adding some metadata on
> when the package was added to Emacs.
>
> Perhaps a simpler alternative is to stop referencing 'package-install'
> and instead point uses to 'M-x list-packages'.

I think this would be better as well.  A lot of users don't even know
what version they use, so we should have to describe how to find that
out as well.  And if that isn't enough, we would also have to explain
what core, built-in and ELPA packages are, and how they interact.  Not
worth it, IMO.

Message #32 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 20:56:45 +0000

Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net> writes:

>> Perhaps a simpler alternative is to stop referencing 'package-install'
>> and instead point uses to 'M-x list-packages'.
>
> I think this would be better as well.  A lot of users don't even know
> what version they use, so we should have to describe how to find that
> out as well.

I hope that we do not have a situation on ELPA where a package cannot be
installed at all on older Emacs.

> ... And if that isn't enough, we would also have to explain
> what core, built-in and ELPA packages are, and how they interact.  Not
> worth it, IMO.

I think it is still worth mentioning that some packages may already be
shipped with Emacs. I do not feel too strongly about this though.

I am OK with changing the installation/upgrade instructions to M-x
list-packages for built-in packages.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #35 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2023 11:59:01 +0000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev> writes:

> Perhaps a simpler alternative is to stop referencing 'package-install' 
> and instead point uses to 'M-x list-packages'.

See the attached patch.

[0001-Suggest-package-install-to-install-packages.patch (text/x-patch, inline)]

From e3e7eae381c0756b54935121c3f0a641685af666 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
Message-ID: <e3e7eae381c0756b54935121c3f0a641685af666.1688903858.git.yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2023 14:56:22 +0300
Subject: [PATCH] Suggest `package-install' to install packages

* elpa-admin.el (elpaa--html-make-pkg): Instruct using `list-packages'
to install packages instead of `package-install'.

See bug#63800.
---
 elpa-admin.el | 3 ++-
 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/elpa-admin.el b/elpa-admin.el
index 7ee385d0a..2b5c9b3dd 100644
--- a/elpa-admin.el
+++ b/elpa-admin.el
@@ -1879,7 +1879,8 @@ (defun elpaa--html-make-pkg (pkg pkg-spec files srcdir plain-readme)
       (elpaa--html-insert-docs pkg-spec)
       (insert "</dl>")
       (insert (format "<p>To install this package, run in Emacs:</p>
-                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">package-install</span> RET <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> RET</pre>"
+                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">list-packages</span> RET</pre>
+                       <p>Then, find <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> in the list, click on the link, and click <span class=\"kw\">Install</span>.</p>"
                       name))
       (let* ((readme-content (elpaa--get-README pkg-spec srcdir))
              (readme-text plain-readme)
-- 
2.41.0

[Message part 3 (text/plain, inline)]

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #38 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 05:14:59 +0300

On 09/07/2023 14:59, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> -                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">package-install</span> RET <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> RET</pre>"
> +                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">list-packages</span> RET</pre>
> +                       <p>Then, find <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> in the list, click on the link, and click <span class=\"kw\">Install</span>.</p>"

Looks like an improvement, thank you.

Message #41 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:46:07 +0000

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net> writes:

> Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev> writes:
>
>> Perhaps a simpler alternative is to stop referencing 'package-install' 
>> and instead point uses to 'M-x list-packages'.
>
> See the attached patch.

Looks good, just one nitpick:

> From e3e7eae381c0756b54935121c3f0a641685af666 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> Message-ID: <e3e7eae381c0756b54935121c3f0a641685af666.1688903858.git.yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
> Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2023 14:56:22 +0300
> Subject: [PATCH] Suggest `package-install' to install packages
>
> * elpa-admin.el (elpaa--html-make-pkg): Instruct using `list-packages'
> to install packages instead of `package-install'.
>
> See bug#63800.
> ---
>  elpa-admin.el | 3 ++-
>  1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
>
> diff --git a/elpa-admin.el b/elpa-admin.el
> index 7ee385d0a..2b5c9b3dd 100644
> --- a/elpa-admin.el
> +++ b/elpa-admin.el
> @@ -1879,7 +1879,8 @@ (defun elpaa--html-make-pkg (pkg pkg-spec files srcdir plain-readme)
>        (elpaa--html-insert-docs pkg-spec)
>        (insert "</dl>")
>        (insert (format "<p>To install this package, run in Emacs:</p>
> -                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">package-install</span> RET <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> RET</pre>"
> +                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">list-packages</span> RET</pre>
> +                       <p>Then, find <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> in the list, click on the link, and click <span class=\"kw\">Install</span>.</p>"

Are you sure that "Install" should have the class kw (I assume keyword)?

>                        name))
>        (let* ((readme-content (elpaa--get-README pkg-spec srcdir))
>               (readme-text plain-readme)
> -- 
> 2.41.0

Other than that, can you push the commit or should I do it?

Message #44 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 16:24:25 +0000

Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net> writes:

>> +                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">list-packages</span> RET</pre>
>> +                       <p>Then, find <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> in the list, click on the link, and click <span class=\"kw\">Install</span>.</p>"
>
> Are you sure that "Install" should have the class kw (I assume keyword)?

I am not sure, but I thought that it should be highlighted. "Install" is
displayed as a button in Emacs.

An alternative could be <pre>Install</pre> - it will look kinda similar
to how Emacs displays it.

Also, note that it will change how all the packages are displayed, not
just core packages.

> Other than that, can you push the commit or should I do it?

I can try. Never pushed to parts of Emacs project other than Org mode.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #47 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 16:38:12 +0000

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net> writes:

> Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net> writes:
>
>>> + <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">list-packages</span> RET</pre>
>>> + <p>Then, find <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> in the list, click on
>>> the link, and click <span class=\"kw\">Install</span>.</p>"
>>
>> Are you sure that "Install" should have the class kw (I assume keyword)?
>
> I am not sure, but I thought that it should be highlighted. "Install" is
> displayed as a button in Emacs.
>
> An alternative could be <pre>Install</pre> - it will look kinda similar
> to how Emacs displays it.

I think that would be better.

> Also, note that it will change how all the packages are displayed, not
> just core packages.

Of course.

>> Other than that, can you push the commit or should I do it?
>
> I can try. Never pushed to parts of Emacs project other than Org mode.

I believe you should have access.

Message #50 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry <at> gutov.dev>, 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: 30.0.50; [ELPA] Inaccurate installation instructions
 for built-in packages
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 09:39:44 +0000

Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net> writes:

>> An alternative could be <pre>Install</pre> - it will look kinda similar
>> to how Emacs displays it.
>
> I think that would be better.

Applied, onto elpa-admin, with the suggested change.
I also moved the bug reference to commit summary.
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=1d766451f81b54169215ffce65a3facf67192a99

>> I can try. Never pushed to parts of Emacs project other than Org mode.
>
> I believe you should have access.

Hope I did not break anything :)

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #53 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to
 install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 09:28:22 -0400

>> But this should be motivated by a preference, not by a bug (which we
>> should fix instead)
> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
> that are not working for :core packages.

I still think there's a bug in there because the behavior may not be
what the user expects.  Maybe `package-install` should be improved so
that, instead of doing nothing it tells or prompts the user about the
possibility to upgrade the package (presumably only do it when called interactively).

>> .... , and not by something that only affects a tiny
>> minority of packages (otherwise, change the above code so it only
>> affects those very few packages).
> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
> package is :core or not.

That would be best.  Even better would be to provide instructions we
don't have to be ashamed of.  E.g. replace `package-install` with
`package-upgrade` for packages that are in-core.


        Stefan

Message #56 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to
 install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 13:35:53 +0000

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
>> that are not working for :core packages.
>
> I still think there's a bug in there because the behavior may not be
> what the user expects.  Maybe `package-install` should be improved so
> that, instead of doing nothing it tells or prompts the user about the
> possibility to upgrade the package (presumably only do it when called interactively).

AFAIU, one of the problems is that already installed packages do not
even show up in the completion and one cannot enter
M-x package-install <RET> org <RET>. The last <RET> will only trigger
completion window where org is not listed at all.

But wasn't this discussed in the past? There was quite a lengthy
discussion about this in the past (I did not quite follow it until the
end).

>> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
>> package is :core or not.
>
> That would be best.  Even better would be to provide instructions we
> don't have to be ashamed of.  E.g. replace `package-install` with
> `package-upgrade` for packages that are in-core.

package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs versions.
Do note that some people still use ELPA to install packages for Emacs
26.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #59 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to
 install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 12:59:05 -0400

>>> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
>>> that are not working for :core packages.
>>
>> I still think there's a bug in there because the behavior may not be
>> what the user expects.  Maybe `package-install` should be improved so
>> that, instead of doing nothing it tells or prompts the user about the
>> possibility to upgrade the package (presumably only do it when called interactively).
>
> AFAIU, one of the problems is that already installed packages do not
> even show up in the completion and one cannot enter
> M-x package-install <RET> org <RET>. The last <RET> will only trigger
> completion window where org is not listed at all.
>
> But wasn't this discussed in the past? There was quite a lengthy
> discussion about this in the past (I did not quite follow it until the
> end).

Indeed, but I think the discussion did not take a step back to think
about what the UI should be in a more general sense (IIRC it was
focused on "what should we do right now for `emacs-29`").

>>> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
>>> package is :core or not.
>> That would be best.  Even better would be to provide instructions we
>> don't have to be ashamed of.  E.g. replace `package-install` with
>> `package-upgrade` for packages that are in-core.
> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs versions.
> Do note that some people still use ELPA to install packages for Emacs
> 26.

But for those, the instructions have been wrong for years anyway, so I'm
not too worried :-)


        Stefan

Message #62 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to
 install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:22:32 +0000

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs versions.
>> Do note that some people still use ELPA to install packages for Emacs
>> 26.
>
> But for those, the instructions have been wrong for years anyway, so I'm
> not too worried :-)

Last time I checked, M-x package-install worked for me in Emacs 26 for
non-core packages. Same for M-x package-list, except that in Emacs 26
one may also need to run M-x package-refresh-contents.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #65 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: M-x package-install, upgrading, and dealing with :core packages
 (was: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to install
 packages (bug#63800))
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:26:39 +0000

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> AFAIU, one of the problems is that already installed packages do not
>> even show up in the completion and one cannot enter
>> M-x package-install <RET> org <RET>. The last <RET> will only trigger
>> completion window where org is not listed at all.
>>
>> But wasn't this discussed in the past? There was quite a lengthy
>> discussion about this in the past (I did not quite follow it until the
>> end).
>
> Indeed, but I think the discussion did not take a step back to think
> about what the UI should be in a more general sense (IIRC it was
> focused on "what should we do right now for `emacs-29`").

Then, M-x package-install may (1) Remove REQUIRE-MATCH from its
interactive `completing-read' call. (2) If the package is built-in and
:core on ELPA, ask to run package upgrade (y/n) - something like
"Package foo is already installed. New version is available on ELPA. Upgrade? (y/n)"
(3) Fall back to user-error that package is not found otherwise.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #68 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to
 install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 13:26:41 -0400

Ihor Radchenko [2023-07-13 13:35:53] wrote:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>>> There is no bug in Emacs here. Just on ELPA page providing instructions
>>> that are not working for :core packages.
>>
>> I still think there's a bug in there because the behavior may not be
>> what the user expects.  Maybe `package-install` should be improved so
>> that, instead of doing nothing it tells or prompts the user about the
>> possibility to upgrade the package (presumably only do it when called interactively).
>
> AFAIU, one of the problems is that already installed packages do not
> even show up in the completion and one cannot enter
> M-x package-install <RET> org <RET>. The last <RET> will only trigger
> completion window where org is not listed at all.
>
> But wasn't this discussed in the past? There was quite a lengthy
> discussion about this in the past (I did not quite follow it until the
> end).
>
>>> I could also put the `list-packages' suggestion behind check if the
>>> package is :core or not.
>>
>> That would be best.  Even better would be to provide instructions we
>> don't have to be ashamed of.  E.g. replace `package-install` with
>> `package-upgrade` for packages that are in-core.
>
> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs versions.
> Do note that some people still use ELPA to install packages for Emacs
> 26.

How 'bout simply:

diff --git a/elpa-admin.el b/elpa-admin.el
index 2c2d2aeab7..3d2bdcc2ef 100644
--- a/elpa-admin.el
+++ b/elpa-admin.el
@@ -1863,10 +1863,7 @@ arbitrary code."
       (insert (format "<dt>Badge</dt><dd><img src=\"%s.svg\"/></dd>\n" (elpaa--html-quote name)))
       (elpaa--html-insert-docs pkg-spec)
       (insert "</dl>")
-      (insert (format "<p>To install this package, run in Emacs:</p>
-                       <pre>M-x <span class=\"kw\">list-packages</span> RET</pre>
-                       <p>Then, find <span class=\"kw\">%s</span> in the list, click on the link, and click <pre>Install</pre>.</p>"
-                      name))
+      (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")
       (let* ((readme-content (elpaa--get-README pkg-spec srcdir))
              (readme-text plain-readme)
              (readme-html (elpaa--section-to-html readme-content))


-- Stefan

Message #71 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to
 install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:42:27 +0000

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> How 'bout simply:
>
> +      (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")

Still not ideal for core packages (package-install is currently useless
for them).
Maybe something like

(if (elpaa--spec-get pkg-spec :core)
  (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")
(insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>"))

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #74 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to
 install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 14:55:21 -0400

>>> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs
>>> versions.  Do note that some people still use ELPA to install
>>> packages for Emacs 26.
>> But for those, the instructions have been wrong for years anyway, so I'm
>> not too worried :-)
> Last time I checked, M-x package-install worked for me in Emacs 26 for
> non-core packages.

And still does and so we can keep using it for non-core packages.
This discussion is only relevant for core packages.
AFAIK `package-install` has never been able to upgrade a core package,
right, so the instructions have been wrong for years in this regard.


        Stefan

Message #77 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest `package-install' to
 install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 19:00:30 +0000

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>>> package-upgrade is not available in any of the released Emacs
>>>> versions.  Do note that some people still use ELPA to install
>>>> packages for Emacs 26.
>>> But for those, the instructions have been wrong for years anyway, so I'm
>>> not too worried :-)
>> Last time I checked, M-x package-install worked for me in Emacs 26 for
>> non-core packages.
>
> And still does and so we can keep using it for non-core packages.
> This discussion is only relevant for core packages.
> AFAIK `package-install` has never been able to upgrade a core package,
> right, so the instructions have been wrong for years in this regard.

We agree here.

But then I read your first message as if keeping things broken is not a
big deal? I feel confused.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #80 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest
 `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:56:33 +0000

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>> How 'bout simply:
>>
>> +      (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")
>
> Still not ideal for core packages (package-install is currently useless
> for them).
> Maybe something like
>
> (if (elpaa--spec-get pkg-spec :core)
>   (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>list-packages</code>.</p>")
> (insert "<p>To install this package from Emacs, use <code>package-install</code> or <code>list-packages</code>.</p>"))

Bump!
There is an awkward situation now with
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/log/?h=elpa-admin
containing my commit, but ELPA website not using it.

Should I push a commit as in the above suggestion?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #83 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest
 `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 08:53:06 -0400

> Bump!
> There is an awkward situation now with
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/log/?h=elpa-admin
> containing my commit, but ELPA website not using it.
>
> Should I push a commit as in the above suggestion?

Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).


        Stefan

Message #86 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest
 `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 08:46:52 +0000

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Bump!
>> There is an awkward situation now with
>> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/log/?h=elpa-admin
>> containing my commit, but ELPA website not using it.
>>
>> Should I push a commit as in the above suggestion?
>
> Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).

Done.
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=0dad7872831e49e5338d888ebffe525cf7f04e13

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #89 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest
 `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:57:32 -0400

>> Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).
>
> Done.
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=0dad7872831e49e5338d888ebffe525cf7f04e13

OK,, thanks.  elpa.gnu.org is now updated, so HTML pages should start
using the new wording (but only for those packages that get a new
tarball).


        Stefan

Message #92 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest
 `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:38:52 +0000

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>> Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).
>>
>> Done.
>> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=0dad7872831e49e5338d888ebffe525cf7f04e13
>
> OK,, thanks.  elpa.gnu.org is now updated, so HTML pages should start
> using the new wording (but only for those packages that get a new
> tarball).

I can see it working now, but it looks like Org mode ELPA definition is
not setting :core. However, it is not clear if it should.

AFAIU, with :core, the build happens from Emacs git repo, which works
for packages developed in Emacs repo, but not for packages that are only
_distributed_ with Emacs.

I am wondering if we should introduce a special keyword for such packages.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #95 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest
 `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 12:09:27 +0000

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net> writes:

> AFAIU, with :core, the build happens from Emacs git repo, which works
> for packages developed in Emacs repo, but not for packages that are only
> _distributed_ with Emacs.
>
> I am wondering if we should introduce a special keyword for such packages.

Ping!

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Message #98 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest
 `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 18:23:17 -0500

>>>> Oh yes, please (and then remind me to update the elpa.gnu.git scripts).
>>> Done.
>>> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/elpa.git/commit/?h=elpa-admin&id=0dad7872831e49e5338d888ebffe525cf7f04e13
>>
>> OK,, thanks.  elpa.gnu.org is now updated, so HTML pages should start
>> using the new wording (but only for those packages that get a new
>> tarball).
>
> I can see it working now, but it looks like Org mode ELPA definition is
> not setting :core. However, it is not clear if it should.
>
> AFAIU, with :core, the build happens from Emacs git repo, which works
> for packages developed in Emacs repo, but not for packages that are only
> _distributed_ with Emacs.
>
> I am wondering if we should introduce a special keyword for such packages.

AFAIK "such packages" is a singleton set :-)

We could fix that, but it doesn't seem urgent.
After all, I see at http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/org.html that we say:

    To install this package from Emacs, use package-install or
    list-packages.
    
    Full description
    
    [...]
    
    1. Install Org
    
    [...]
    
    To install a more recent version, please do it from GNU ELPA by
    running this command: M-x package-install RET org RET
    
    [...]

so even Org's own doc hasn't been fixed yet :-)


        Stefan

Message #101 received at 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92 <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 63800 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#63800: [elpa] elpa-admin 1d766451f8: Suggest
 `package-install' to install packages (bug#63800)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 11:29:40 +0000

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> I am wondering if we should introduce a special keyword for such packages.
>
> AFAIK "such packages" is a singleton set :-)

Maybe also clojure-mode in future :)

> We could fix that, but it doesn't seem urgent.
> After all, I see at http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/org.html that we say:
> ...
>     1. Install Org
>     
>     [...]
>     
>     To install a more recent version, please do it from GNU ELPA by
>     running this command: M-x package-install RET org RET
>     
>     [...]
>
> so even Org's own doc hasn't been fixed yet :-)

That's because I scheduled this fix after this bug is resolved.
Now, Org's README is updated.
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/commit/?id=11c626b52

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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