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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Instead of just saying that non-nil allows `find-file' to visit directories, say also (as does (emacs) `Visiting') that otherwise (i.e., nil) raises an error when the arg is a directory name. In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From unknown Sat Aug 09 20:46:56 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#63557: 26.3; Doc string of `find-file-run-dired' Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 05:24:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 63557 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 63557@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 63557-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B63557.16843874019997 (code B ref 63557); Thu, 18 May 2023 05:24:01 +0000 Received: (at 63557) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2023 05:23:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51682 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pzW6j-0002bA-C0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 May 2023 01:23:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41226) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pzW6h-0002aw-8M for 63557@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 May 2023 01:23:19 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pzW6b-0005ez-43; Thu, 18 May 2023 01:23:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=2u97UXl45tQ9Q8e5ikcqZypmpqeoIYW1Jf6r9FavTfg=; b=A//TIaT14ZpQ Qt5rhBBVSVZ/jwP/yflVamIKMwvBtg3IlMS+n87s77erxh2I7FiSWJxfmsOe6CtrR5JcEfd/ReFW1 h4nIR5AMEUb9VMkkXFTnFD3B1dTIK39zPJ1nxYtjKEhfowUPsSbmWXokkgtJJo8X/D6t35u7kdY6Z S/qs1yOBS0Z4SELrEQnZ1rKvnQo/XJot3L2cJLuxoDtnGGGZav8btX2FW+SVLYIOapdzthaniMeG6 BVeHVm3dTOOri5SY7uirlz20QHo3E0gYU8bSIVfF+yxFLeFeomQbD8moKvl1uj0vrHT9tHqoWZqce 5LPzogYmOcfAIUfqdQHMUw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pzW6a-0005xv-G5; Thu, 18 May 2023 01:23:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 08:23:22 +0300 Message-Id: <83v8gqw6ut.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 17 May 2023 19:43:17 +0000) References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 19:43:17 +0000 > > Instead of just saying that non-nil allows `find-file' to visit > directories, say also (as does (emacs) `Visiting') that otherwise (i.e., > nil) raises an error when the arg is a directory name. How would you interpret "allows" in any other sense? What could "does not allow" mean when the value is nil? IOW, I don't see why would we need to spoon-feed the user in this case. The meaning of nil is crystal clear to me. From unknown Sat Aug 09 20:46:56 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#63557: 26.3; Doc string of `find-file-run-dired' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 15:36:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 63557 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: "63557@debbugs.gnu.org" <63557@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 63557-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B63557.168442411423404 (code B ref 63557); Thu, 18 May 2023 15:36:02 +0000 Received: (at 63557) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2023 15:35:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54204 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pzfes-00065P-4Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 May 2023 11:35:14 -0400 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:44310) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pzfeo-00065F-W7 for 63557@debbugs.gnu.org; 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What could "does > not allow" mean when the value is nil? > IOW, I don't see why would we need to spoon-feed the user in this > case. The meaning of nil is crystal clear to me. That you can't visit a directory is one thing. That trying to do that raises an error is a different thing. Another possible behavior that doesn't visit a directory is to do nothing. A third is to show a message, without raising an error. Not being able to do something is not the same as having an error raised if you try to do it. From unknown Sat Aug 09 20:46:56 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Drew Adams Subject: bug#63557: closed (Re: [External] : Re: bug#63557: 26.3; Doc string of `find-file-run-dired') Message-ID: References: <83ilcpve09.fsf@gnu.org> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 63557 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 63557@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 15:47:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1684424822-24778-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1684424822-24778-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #63557: 26.3; Doc string of `find-file-run-dired' which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 63557@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 63557: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D63557 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1684424822-24778-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 63557-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2023 15:47:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54232 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pzfqH-0006RS-Ly for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 May 2023 11:47:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60112) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pzfqF-0006RE-7l for 63557-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 May 2023 11:47:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pzfq4-0007av-5J; Thu, 18 May 2023 11:46:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=b7XbIv/d/8kXRUySwooNy0lTrYxRxdrgdwIz6VtTur4=; b=bbpZiIy3FTPm IxURLOi0cCkoQ5NVxDzkmrQQanacouXw27ArYnr6tiDocwDYhA/QIQxORrDdT556kq6vCUgRuCHwj WvEZtWxKIrlhXqxmgPUE/XWvORKqL3vqillaD1jd+zvUpECdEMhjLjpDD0KktOhS4vuH0OjoTcvYn QI1YbeAyeIftGE5rgebHfUM41GaDZICzpKPIG6CN84xod4wRs51QQYQRROnedcCzoMv+pA0kQO347 I/DVwqCumPB3QbWbKmY2JUwu2ayhTtae77m4TnG24PKRz8V0U2X07r9byfLOWANiR+5mzkuZwhyEn njwx8NcfN6iI8eXlqnUHpA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pzfpa-0000AH-5W; Thu, 18 May 2023 11:46:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 18:46:30 +0300 Message-Id: <83ilcpve09.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 18 May 2023 15:35:03 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#63557: 26.3; Doc string of `find-file-run-dired' References: <83v8gqw6ut.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63557-done Cc: 63557-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "63557@debbugs.gnu.org" <63557@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 15:35:03 +0000 > > > > Instead of just saying that non-nil allows `find-file' to visit > > > directories, say also (as does (emacs) `Visiting') that otherwise (i.e., > > > nil) raises an error when the arg is a directory name. > > > > How would you interpret "allows" in any other sense? What could "does > > not allow" mean when the value is nil? > > IOW, I don't see why would we need to spoon-feed the user in this > > case. The meaning of nil is crystal clear to me. > > That you can't visit a directory is one thing. The doc string says "allows", not "can". > That trying to do that raises an error is a > different thing. Another possible behavior > that doesn't visit a directory is to do nothing. > A third is to show a message, without raising > an error. > > Not being able to do something is not the same > as having an error raised if you try to do it. You are splitting hair for no good reason. 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In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' ------------=_1684424822-24778-1-- From unknown Sat Aug 09 20:46:56 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#63557: 26.3; Doc string of `find-file-run-dired' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 16:07:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 63557 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: "63557-done@debbugs.gnu.org" <63557-done@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 63557-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D63557.168442601727800 (code D ref 63557); Thu, 18 May 2023 16:07:02 +0000 Received: (at 63557-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: /+serVSyMWNhh/RkmBDlbKdqkvPpfhVsqr9m/p142k3ovwPnIhzXL8SYdaZg6lC/hdUeH9R+pcpALPdeILFnS68W/5XT+8uwie1XeQDWnG3PadVlSiv6N8sKqKUgTLpoGLbbtFHIz+xEIE0+8Q8z5ZAWrfj/FL6j7qWB5lxR8FJS5HKEph9Vw4AEKtaxmLr0GILcTuABlfvJ36fq8YrQCYfgwZpomR5Ql0OKF3DiIFBe2o3eHEtKZPOtx9axai/BmngEG1LYjmmevqshV5GSBqpInwyIUDgUfKt/42+46Aq426kon8T6b9sQTb6LwmVqNFQf5SY/LYhEdnpq8pnekJmJm5qMAsFWJ6jK1M4fbD+VhVcQPdy7U/lyzE4Q0yrV+x3z3zh2WIAztf+clPLU2ccUm768zVkJrqKAiK8KK/LmvSv44HgfTPTav6mfj+hH0g/60cHgwoJN8X0ZWeDLNaPAECf5qtzG7WGG19YCk9ltyWjcFFLWAVlddmLZJAS3Zjw1B+JCplOQ4hQ8cQ1iJFWiKFkcKvzuJhthnPIsYPW+eDWKD8V9jFb6kAT1yXXAb5Ien/dTgs34AYxtp1Br7LGvA4H7lmX5WtCsgITSbiPSRCoVwF9jFeYmrmAhTYKKUbq3m7cLlJiMfrj3tM+2q3TamvS6fvRNfWl+8OFxQTkAdw5uYs+IOsEXtFFcXqjFj788AFFZkK5LKHOcSuV9SjMcUC+eV9+rmBFihE80T5lbks0iKFyhQQCQb8xYWfEYZuPk9yiW/Y3mwe55/qlTctVQh7h0ValgR/QAgyXG8NY= X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 732598d4-14c0-4d14-8698-08db57b9e376 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 May 2023 16:06:49.9527 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0mxZcKUs+A9++Srkg6uOj0y35+DOvl8zCvgpGU6PJv8MbnuCa6HEPmvPjL6kR3hpanHGjjia891kqCzWZ+CMKA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN7PR10MB7104 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.254,Aquarius:18.0.957,Hydra:6.0.573,FMLib:17.11.170.22 definitions=2023-05-18_13,2023-05-17_02,2023-02-09_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=486 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2304280000 definitions=main-2305180130 X-Proofpoint-GUID: cDgMCEDV1SmQh4rMzSVoIOCRyivQJM8G X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: cDgMCEDV1SmQh4rMzSVoIOCRyivQJM8G X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > That you can't visit a directory is one thing. >=20 > The doc string says "allows", not "can". That you're not allowed to visit a directory is one thing. That an error is raised is another. > > That trying to do that raises an error is a > > different thing. Another possible behavior > > that doesn't visit a directory is to do nothing. > > A third is to show a message, without raising > > an error. > > > > Not being able to do something is not the same > > as having an error raised if you try to do it. >=20 > You are splitting hair for no good reason. Tell that to the manual, which rightfully makes clear that an error is raised. Ask yourself if you're perhaps refusing a simple doc fix for no good reason.