From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 25 13:49:25 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2023 17:49:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53527 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prMn7-00066c-Jy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:49:25 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:46858) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prMn6-00066U-5I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:49:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prMn0-0006dI-M3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:49:20 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([2a01:e0c:1:1599::11]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prMmw-0000YV-QT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 13:49:16 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@free.fr) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53DA12018BB for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682444950; bh=cmE+jV6t8+pRVvHhdlVgkynZWsmQ3xY1BjY2DtsGYMM=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=Iljf+fnOOgnl7/CPPhE5ZpnUCfRZ38TCIiXlKUBkLqqp4gU8SDJ2shE55qyg0Daz9 xhqt+X5X7iB1YF7QFvC9lx9hN9YwJ90BCbrWAOmpRXcUau/c9pwgsPC/tegXOopo1j t1tqUC1I4FMtcKSL3BCI3qDRGVOsiAi4pmWHVCJdUfiVw9rr1dxgDkJw4hmxaJuaYU 3kpcg0noygsJUs8paZLvjIp22Jpptyu3fqOn9b0ogUpMKKMH3A4Eihpk6t07p24HK/ g+gq/4V3AdhysF8iUTXxYF5HcH1bOIy5fq4n6iFh2Wq0dxa7v68Vrkf4zpZ7ps0bmn 9QBC6I3L/6F4w== From: Olivier Certner To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:09 +0200 Message-ID: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:e0c:1:1599::11; envelope-from=ocert.dev@free.fr; helo=smtp2-g21.free.fr X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Hi, I noticed that the current "bsd" CC mode style is not compliant with what all BSDs have been doing since their inception. This is the first patch. Also, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have been having more stringent requirements (as documented in their style(9) manpage; for more than 20 years). So the second patch creates specific "freebsd" and "openbsd" styles deriving from "bsd" and adding just the two additional requirements. Patches to be attached after the bug report is created and assigned an ID. Regards. -- Olivier Certner From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 25 14:02:56 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2023 18:02:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53549 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prN0A-0006Sn-62 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:02:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58102) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prN04-0006SV-E5 for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:02:52 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prMzy-0004SV-L6; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:02:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Jen5mT4r2+NHY4kLerbxspj5iby8s/XeTikZahZVB1Y=; b=UktBFDAcOGar 7oR2SrxSQCRWE8VK3ePs5nLq1YOF1jLGE0YYyPpMcZTmSdpSsfeNYV/iJogPTZyf6e3lU6dsnYpcw Wl7CyKeGmkJiT0cKfLr+vHSYScR+suCCOX3JjfrwPJeeG/qTxfTzszg6fBNe389GMEf7tIouxKSts EfY3g1/zadTIlpGwJS1Cy2dyhS+RgPa4/palrRR5+nDydp3eODghRNlN7Uqk5BJv/kNtcj0JghOQV +EGFg1SERo3EL22snl5dI/tqpAC3bksVEUZ1GOBxpHllTgQZueEYaHJquh91OYx2UoycJ1MTLoSns R89RDL3UCGOoo1a4oIMr4g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prMzx-00068P-KS; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:02:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 21:03:09 +0300 Message-Id: <83fs8nvnz6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Olivier Certner In-Reply-To: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:09 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:49:09 +0200 > > I noticed that the current "bsd" CC mode style is not compliant with what all BSDs have been doing since their inception. This is the first patch. ENOPATCH, but in any case, I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long time. So I suggest instead to create a new style, say bsd2 or somesuch. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 25 16:57:36 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2023 20:57:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53686 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prPjE-00037e-Gh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 16:57:36 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:24728) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prPjA-00037T-7N for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 16:57:36 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@free.fr) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC980200709; Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682456250; bh=1WHFeI77lPsaR9tuoLWU+xAI/O5DSsCvcDw5nRclxCM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=f13gZgouKi3CwZRk2WEJWXBw8CDRhx1mF1vpxayW7rjmU1bKvyjl6qHnvns6CjNt3 5eGrd3pzdHzN2mjfIb0aPXFzIayQBrPF0r0NE4NRSPxWeUjspVEIkvaYUg5VmU6YkV 5l9oI+t3u7BipaslJvwdyG5Odkai4jrvm10uCZ7vIJRilO8v5BWfj82rEi3m5DpZ3t j2C+jE5vWQKOd3sSMUUKHYi4jFAWLMl+vREfO1Ob8Kyc7O0WjIwN2ZrDVTN/v8km06 wJL7DH7cPU1sxHLa2ETqe+Q8a/4q10CeozofALZ8QIePXUUMDDzY+N1WKCfN0wggN9 r1BQixxgjS19g== From: Olivier Certner To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200 Message-ID: <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83fs8nvnz6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <83fs8nvnz6.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > ENOPATCH, Yes. See end of initial message + was temporarily distracted. > but in any case, I don't think we can change a style that > was in use for such a long time. So I suggest instead to create a new > style, say bsd2 or somesuch. That may be a problem, not so much for the ancient "bsd", but for the new ones. After more reading, it seems that this "bsd" is in fact Allman's style, which indeed differs for the style used by BSD projects. So, I'm pondering with using "bsd-knf" instead (for Kernel Normal Form), which appears to be the dedicated term (and is even documented in Wikipedia). What I intend to do with "freebsd" and "openbsd" is to have styles reflecting the current practice for these projects. Which means they can (in fact, most probably will) be changed in the future according to how they amend their style guidelines. If this policy of changes is documented, is that OK? For those who want to use the current style for whatever project they have and don't want it to change afterwards, we could, e.g., make "freebsd" an alias of some "freebsd1" style (let's say, for version 1), and they would "freebsd1", i.e., a specific version that will not change. I'm not sure if this will be useful for some people, but at least it is cheap to do so we should probably do it even if in the end nobody would use it. I think I need a little bit more reading and pondering (and your answers) before I can actually submit meaningful patches. (So the interruption might have been a blessing.) Thanks. -- Olivier Certner From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 01:50:29 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 05:50:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54050 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prY2v-0001hj-8v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 01:50:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56780) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prY2r-0001hO-3C for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 01:50:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prY2l-0001Yh-Ch; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 01:50:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=AaOCcGC5sGG5UGpWznnAfjumyEKRceauV42EHWAq4ek=; b=BdO0XEY48pte u2o3dm6IfnLgUj2V+nUD+HQ5Ad4xdS/PuH1xj0sFv2M/ncKP9a/eLWBx0XY8jvkdGdOQuMSwL1bRp Z64fdiyOgT6WchaaNVrj0RKVg6lzlrD0sIJ5wkDYC5x3J11mLTuL74HhR+0RQqj/zq0FP1Ly6ABwL iygTNudRPgktAYlyaZRdyNLgtuIKohGQHFiVe9KUCODzUlZv2HdQxmCXxIcqfCWWKsh0ei2qKApr9 cxrf+ms+VyDBzWvohOXQDZ6/Gi7YD7OTQptnRGUcrNrqyIpkrVjlBvUrGd4T52j0kCF+BL9tm8wxU DG/jwi3Anqe6XpctnYphlg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prY2h-0002FV-9N; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 01:50:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 08:50:44 +0300 Message-Id: <83cz3rur7v.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Olivier Certner In-Reply-To: <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <83fs8nvnz6.fsf@gnu.org> <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner > Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 22:57:29 +0200 > > After more reading, it seems that this "bsd" is in fact Allman's style, which > indeed differs for the style used by BSD projects. So, I'm pondering with > using "bsd-knf" instead (for Kernel Normal Form), which appears to be the > dedicated term (and is even documented in Wikipedia). Renaming old styles is also a problem, but new styles can be named as we see fit, of course. > What I intend to do with "freebsd" and "openbsd" is to have styles reflecting > the current practice for these projects. Which means they can (in fact, most > probably will) be changed in the future according to how they amend their > style guidelines. If this policy of changes is documented, is that OK? If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves to follow them from now to eternity? That's a non-trivial maintenance burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves, and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 03:28:23 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 07:28:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prZZe-0004Zt-M1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 03:28:22 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:18702) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prZZc-0004Zf-2V for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 03:28:20 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@free.fr) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 85D7E200594; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682494098; bh=8x/PF6xy8TMLxEh4o32lwM32t3w8HzKuSxdWT6AikKE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=kYhKRmO0Ldneys/ZtV5DEo1LT/ibnFRKq9IyVq9ylqI+mIQkux1w2g/k8GD07F1b9 6J4RW7u2XHy97g6Fv4mEO6ASsulGn6mSd/ZlMxYFIML8s92LscBhJb24ZPZpLvzNgU q9CDNNJDoW9XDVO3gxQBGD839Qh/Ejdgo1KOfO8rTNanqiQslEETz3BBxN50rypRop 7hPN2lPh5NPIZLv4M3e44RSwsCeeq8+4sgxWu5rxbj1GDSts6x+fqvX6oCFhnXS1D9 BKMIwxiDW1JVNOJWIrCtHlxqNMZIXpnb7O9P48ldeErzBpvccUg/1PUGvNA2FoIk+Z AYufSiL4ZlnuQ== From: Olivier Certner To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200 Message-ID: <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83cz3rur7v.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> <83cz3rur7v.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, > If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding > projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves > to follow them from now to eternity? That's a non-trivial maintenance > burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves, > and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change. But I never said we would commit to that. On the contrary, what I would like is that the documentation says clearly that "freebsd" and "openbsd" may change, so that people are aware they cannot rely on these styles to always remain the same (contrary to the old styles). So that's rather a non- commitment. Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just be updated on a best-effort basis. Is that OK? -- Olivier Certner From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 05:13:17 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 09:13:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54256 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prbDB-0007il-9r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:13:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39802) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prbD9-0007iY-1P for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:13:16 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prbD2-00047p-Kv; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:13:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=aWfsHDxWxrwvNr4/XBuZCgf0DE7rxK3/bhjtHI/ev08=; b=DJzZMvX0N2qr B7jPuYrYiQmVgiZtTxTmZA4+9ISgDhe5SDLl+bnie4mF2y4Y3Qc067xKC3CS+zJWMb0XWABJGdJjC KZBOmc3/sriZbG5zfu9TgIaDocV4dYthLuVHRvlcrqKdgtG7BVko3W0aKQUSnKwfZQl0pVoAkuyq5 Nhz3/kB/Uf4t0LBp+hB5vGRyOmm0ofwPBnUtMEnk30NK07uVDyVQ8yzLh+ZgHnibElLWFP0/OIDIB LIYm0Wd69DXFBc8jHT1L/DlA50/X5HoAZXW9t8a1/y+NZmhTpu1m3eq5RCCqg924uBC6Qy5ondgdg iz+/8zrl1eaGiSTNNwL3NQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prbD1-0001Z7-PH; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:13:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:13:36 +0300 Message-Id: <83354nuhtr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Olivier Certner In-Reply-To: <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <4964691.nKnxuYGXMN@ravel> <83cz3rur7v.fsf@gnu.org> <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner > Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:28:17 +0200 > > > If documented that these styles change to follow the corresponding > > projects, it might be okay, but do we really want to commit ourselves > > to follow them from now to eternity? That's a non-trivial maintenance > > burden, unless the projects themselves take that up upon themselves, > > and will be submitting changes whenever their conventions change. > > But I never said we would commit to that. On the contrary, what I would like > is that the documentation says clearly that "freebsd" and "openbsd" may > change, so that people are aware they cannot rely on these styles to always > remain the same (contrary to the old styles). So that's rather a non- > commitment. > > Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just be > updated on a best-effort basis. The "best-effort" part is what bothers me. We introduce these new styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow those projects, except by luck? Does that make sense? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 05:31:34 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 09:31:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54284 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prbUs-0008D3-M0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:31:34 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:24580) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prbUp-0008Ct-Nl for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 05:31:32 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@free.fr) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B7EA200595; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:29 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682501490; bh=4OUYOY3vlqrHSDO/Uv6LqmP+/F2iC9S1vVuXtIIudYU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=BlkCTuFdudkjH0KBkQVMijhFMN52bm4QTL0t8+fIPsfszO3Y8bP3EcIGCQWXdGfAx Lu/DaLrAQwvdhVfjLddDpoiqCMwUVVoPubMpDHycsRht+hZKHV7haEknWcCqttUkhx 0tEkfQETIxHRAfqQuV6ZmOjaGrCutZ7GinqQVpwTu5H7MLdxjMkaNApbB6vCDLjyOi lwtR1WDkBfD7WdcVwo96g3qP6loGRmay6Ca5S9wiAk8iA+GyamxqIb1KLnMlpUAKIp zf67CR0aCOB54PIYyeGhtSuX8RJ0D0j7LmAlq/NdRiWk/YIAMJW0tD1sTTQe9qhnV4 Mu7iO84Rw1lqQ== From: Olivier Certner To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:28 +0200 Message-ID: <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83354nuhtr.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> <83354nuhtr.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just > > be updated on a best-effort basis. > > The "best-effort" part is what bothers me. We introduce these new > styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we > basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow > those projects, except by luck? Does that make sense? By luck? The last changes in these styles with a practical consequence for CC mode were done more than 20 years ago. Had the changes proposed here been done at that time, users would have been able to use the right style since then. Truth is, users not having the right style would be extremely unlucky, given the rate of changes (practically zero). These styles are *intended* to follow these projects' practice. And they will so more than 99% of the time. Of course, if a style changes and requires a CC style modification, then someone will have to submit it and in the meantime users will have to live with the discrepancy. Is that what really bothers you? That's what best effort means. Again, this will be useful to the relevant users more than 99% of the time. -- Olivier Certner From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 06:31:43 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 10:31:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54363 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prcR5-000433-JN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:31:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39822) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prcR4-00042q-IG for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:31:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prcQz-0001kY-9K; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:31:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=bhbqT5biZ4N57BgToSHFHK3c6TxbbOqp7DkcAba/Gc0=; b=SRF+HiISXg1I SVYHfIgF6ebQFbKhCAvNMAAW+6GvfaC5SWAoyWc7JEXSbriu83GQjuzDCNUDj7SDoVhVE4FA9squT 2q0yWWNn61CKrqDcC6laNvvtQ6B+qE2lJx29Nz4HE+CDTfid1DaxLF8NDTjJkoqfaW4XtIIeshOrm wFSAJoIJpYehQtDBx3tkkJO52e3xSLmYNU/xd4HaF+UjZ5d1F2Zj+J0eTS/N8lAFazmdU6JvNit2r wW5DPUCddkSQ01nTYu8OKYXHoJIj6MU2fPbSH9cC5OFmKIlauEKLyTFuNn7lMfUHAVFp6T6/TZebn qQ0EJjiywBEO99Sq3qQkIg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prcQn-0001LW-VI; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:31:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 13:31:56 +0300 Message-Id: <83ttx3szmr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Olivier Certner In-Reply-To: <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:28 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <2624808.XrqEPMHAR6@ravel> <83354nuhtr.fsf@gnu.org> <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner > Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:31:28 +0200 > > > > Additionally, these changes will be exceedingly rare, and styles will just > > > be updated on a best-effort basis. > > > > The "best-effort" part is what bothers me. We introduce these new > > styles because the relevant projects change the styles, and then we > > basically tell users: don't expect these styles to actually follow > > those projects, except by luck? Does that make sense? > > By luck? The last changes in these styles with a practical consequence for CC > mode were done more than 20 years ago. Had the changes proposed here been done > at that time, users would have been able to use the right style since then. > > Truth is, users not having the right style would be extremely unlucky, given > the rate of changes (practically zero). These styles are *intended* to follow > these projects' practice. And they will so more than 99% of the time. Of > course, if a style changes and requires a CC style modification, then someone > will have to submit it and in the meantime users will have to live with the > discrepancy. Is that what really bothers you? That's what best effort means. > Again, this will be useful to the relevant users more than 99% of the time. If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding them. But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that they do change. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 09:09:30 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 13:09:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54549 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pretl-0002YB-Qg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:09:30 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:11392) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pretg-0002Xw-FF for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:09:28 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@free.fr) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1015E2003CA; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682514563; bh=UV/fYGLllL4wGVecdjBH/bR2Quf7SkH2HUm1yRxAR7c=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=hhH7X8aKlDTVFHD/tTUA0dayxmBFxeJ5EQgforlEWZA9cBJPCIftGOUKjGlD2mFZv 3ZA7rfN2VO2DuJNm8KQgjso529U2FRXVf8DMNks4HRh0DKpdPawZJrb+lZ4ARL5dVV DKlpQkqlL59fyJLsBKv+4WFslNeN3yqKHkzVJKrepND4Jxi6DDSpW7AAROz7SPBQQl VCEgjQZOk26cYVubjqh6ekxR4rXN69UrpyJzveILgYQ2zqoWKwlvF82t04I9L9GU/q oda7PBLrp92C0t8ZfGuGSg041ghqDvMtqj7Bj3NX4SspyfbUZbZiyFbunOeHAsLFgw kG5qBChNOz/tw== From: Olivier Certner To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:21 +0200 Message-ID: <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83ttx3szmr.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> <83ttx3szmr.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding > them. But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that > they do change. I thought this was clear, but apparently not. I mentioned the possibility of a change, yes, because you and I care about backwards compatibility. To quote you: "I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long time". There may be changes in the project styles, maybe next month, maybe in ten years, maybe in twenty. I do not think the probability is 0 over such a long period of time. What I would not want is you or someone else telling me in 10 or 20 years, after such a change: "I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long time". What I want instead is that, e.g., "freebsd" can be changed as necessary. I specifically do not want to then be told to create another style named "freebsd2" or whatever. For that to be possible, users must be warned that these styles, although almost always stable, are not, and will not, be set in stone for eternity, contrary to, perhaps, "bsd" or "whitesmith". And I even offered a scheme with additional styles that will never change, if you think that is useful (I think it might be and is so cheap to implement that I think we should do it anyway, even if in the end nobody uses it). Is that clear now? -- Olivier Certner From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 09:32:02 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 13:32:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54608 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prfFZ-00039O-TY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:32:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prfFW-000396-5e for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:32:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prfFQ-00054U-GI; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:31:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=cFF2jmX31MW8d4NCHWEZTE0dZZe9s4hEK/xhVLEFuyM=; b=Ld71MdUE6thI 8VL4Cz1x/gxH+Ji0wft1nZcVbadOo/QfVdVwQ27aVFK9aCSKNKGZkB6K8GzM8D3mqSK9yM7vcpMFJ nAZTfGcw+bZ0fmarNdtUsAXYbU1mpWfva4R9LLnCjYhljvFc9pPxXgST85fIiSFNhPk3sHifqH/8L 51rUUqMukTsZJmwqUkKsb10qz70zQWbcCOYDi9xSJr8vCEveI5Y0bGErg2wke5DOnKqPgQ2iIrIZQ uMmU50aTx0PzVNqBkvd9qRrJLwLsl/tp1HH0AuxGmdX296y/1MHyLD/Q+liUdfrCjVKZqTxU1RcJZ X2B1/Uthay5q7Pb0ILwQbQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prfFQ-0008NJ-0F; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:31:52 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 16:32:21 +0300 Message-Id: <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Olivier Certner In-Reply-To: <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:21 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <2661733.poxlI1A5LX@ravel> <83ttx3szmr.fsf@gnu.org> <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner > Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:09:21 +0200 > > > If the styles don't change in practice, then I'm okay with adding > > them. But then I wonder why you bothered to mention the fact that > > they do change. > > I thought this was clear, but apparently not. I mentioned the possibility of a > change, yes, because you and I care about backwards compatibility. To quote > you: "I don't think we can change a style that was in use for such a long > time". > > There may be changes in the project styles, maybe next month, maybe in ten > years, maybe in twenty. I do not think the probability is 0 over such a long > period of time. What I would not want is you or someone else telling me in 10 > or 20 years, after such a change: "I don't think we can change a style that > was in use for such a long time". What I want instead is that, e.g., "freebsd" > can be changed as necessary. I specifically do not want to then be told to > create another style named "freebsd2" or whatever. For that to be possible, > users must be warned that these styles, although almost always stable, are > not, and will not, be set in stone for eternity, contrary to, perhaps, "bsd" > or "whitesmith". And I even offered a scheme with additional styles that will > never change, if you think that is useful (I think it might be and is so cheap > to implement that I think we should do it anyway, even if in the end nobody > uses it). > > Is that clear now? Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 09:53:29 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 13:53:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54634 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prfaL-0003ov-7n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:53:29 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:44650) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prfaG-0003ok-DK for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:53:28 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@free.fr) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1157E2003DD; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1682517203; bh=UAHOHWi7gROgMhIe12hlkfYgu5Szm10rDB1RfhF+V3k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=sogIoRl2cCyplI60d1gWB1ViD7If9D2TSXT2t+6u6ibq3mqiJmt+hufo6qT1IXvPW mh2Dz3bH3i/ZX1iWHGbkCGVbzHIgfhB+jl329AFHcnBfYUJeIj04IXmOSEHXVQRJ4m HPLExB33otlyn8GTNnUVhjQ9185zOfUaRFMAR9fmGFxMQKZpGYRRVlQfoAYiiMLnzI QuQ/HgbqAZqBzS14++OgsJlCqYoiBxZm9SwFCBFEw9bR4LXOMOpgDbN0HsM0v63w/p GOsT23WHOE9A4gkR39xnWIdJBDydRhq2qIvfJeAkyFpkrKLUGaQRAnAm9DJIYkF3x8 ybja6bvX8KavQ== From: Olivier Certner To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200 Message-ID: <1984147.pa4WFRhM9t@ravel> In-Reply-To: <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at > all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change. Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years. Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. -- Olivier Certner From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 26 12:07:19 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2023 16:07:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56842 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prhfr-0008OA-MA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:07:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33196) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1prhfp-0008Nw-BW for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:07:18 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prhfj-00032s-RL; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:07:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Iq6gLJVtGvoSORCPguwdN9UY7zzMteAJKo0Yg5SNGao=; b=U5jEL79Qi0xq BG8/F877PWCHRUtKqOVmGPgirmlb3ApOqmrbQVpD16ZUOXSR7f8gb8+E3cTZi4s+suTZ/DcDbW5HC pUHDa3RSgwqtk0qdu3EwNnTuQ6zeeXVZm4o1Qdd9JXaoicZ6rzJToazFSL98ghLljTSzwVQA3c5C7 nwDLJde8MapuYUrvrDDHL5sFrBhBZdi9t/C82nLDSJqfggAN4r6QGvmw4WNEyeXtF4KtANMUydYJ0 E98/wUS/S7qxO4OuxOdHgAFLcYwzvwdM65srEyw8/1Wqs8JXJfUc9CxoLctD8r/emFzxI0Y0+gYMv WBpuZdzj2J9oR2s3wIDukg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1prhfi-0007b5-0X; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:07:10 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:07:39 +0300 Message-Id: <83cz3qtyno.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Olivier Certner In-Reply-To: <1984147.pa4WFRhM9t@ravel> (message from Olivier Certner on Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@gnu.org> <1984147.pa4WFRhM9t@ravel> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Olivier Certner > Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200 > > > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at > > all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change. > > Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed > in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, > as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years. > > Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. Let's see that patch of yours, then. Thanks. 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Mon, 4 Sep 2023 01:32:53 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2023 01:32:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: control message for bug #63072 To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) severity 63072 wishlist quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 05 12:02:07 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Sep 2023 16:02:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58052 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qdYVD-00026l-9X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Sep 2023 12:02:07 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]:44467) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qdYUw-00025m-SV for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; 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CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org, Olivier Certner X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Olivier Certner >> Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:53:21 +0200 >> >> > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at >> > all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change. >> >> Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed >> in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, >> as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years. >> >> Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. > > Let's see that patch of yours, then. Oliver, did you have a chance to look into this? Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 15 08:41:37 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2023 12:41:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42393 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qh88e-00071F-TR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 08:41:37 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::135]:54726) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qh88b-00070u-BR for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 08:41:35 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-502e7d66c1eso3113311e87.1 for <63072@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 05:41:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1694781681; x=1695386481; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qxGYH+jb/DreOIs9yj9ziWdltWgRrguz/nNFulI3d4A=; b=fjAh+XQr0tnPc75KuoypnWzQGu5bcG2zBz4tlZLQNqshwhSyS4uAVj0Sd3E8v15sLY +f1bVj4zhoIS/TuBqMMKaYOqipM7OLmrT6OVyO3dqKx5mh34j4xfFD5eLhqXZqm11JLI 4l/mQOhjbicgaFhEmGgVPHwglEYPaXzJdfDfF4raDUU7m7QksgG5vxI4wDQ80b78igYp R3S3+5ioMdLd2GsuJrHl3ZOprL0EUaOoD9gLXdzZYYDcW497CP145HuiptshDL57Sf0H KytAUUNqJ+3ucyiHXTMGIrp/zxQUm5j8LBqNVMKaPVpZ9sQX68esyyQ1YnCJb2CMLh1R zeMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694781681; x=1695386481; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qxGYH+jb/DreOIs9yj9ziWdltWgRrguz/nNFulI3d4A=; b=m0X7UB6UijHCfayEeezWQlMG7aB9PNWs5ulVgc6LKJNvfq3gkIsVhCG+irbjrOJv3P Z9TV1ng44khxD/rP1l3oziBHhiAA64QDvUvmy1n5B59kabqFn7v0KXcZWU2Ba+yZ4OJB 9froaJnlXfbv7RJY8crP88mpYeUKhUX6MDVNPHHq268vt6hgESfrxuBxJOdBx5zX3xxN xsOvd6G4hEcMveC3QCSrNAfBbuDKkUJemCY7JcPmIVvjfKtRNQMibh9jEy8OLmedJoN2 5Mo4aqXfu5XGI5Xlyc6SrfbFdMLoyrUyMPItY5ugP5FcrSHh+LB/WKawOTw6JYcKb5bM KHZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzhN9GxwowFG6rPXT+WMRW8xBRhFeFhr7ITtlZNZhMmxISsD/Rz nmMQRkLhIs4/g3PJgbxYEL7lQZUX6LuGJc0+i62r+mNQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEK3+DJCI+nT/s5V3Kc99hmeyq5/0lqBEya6O/qKSv8K+1CJf4Rg3fKFviBvm/pvcWKN64n4o9DvDFb8x0WXII= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:e85:b0:4fb:91c5:fd38 with SMTP id bi5-20020a0565120e8500b004fb91c5fd38mr1738731lfb.0.1694781680596; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 05:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 15 Sep 2023 05:41:20 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83cz3qtyno.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <5569144.NofZdxuNk6@ravel> <83fs8mu5ui.fsf@gnu.org> <1984147.pa4WFRhM9t@ravel> <83cz3qtyno.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 05:41:20 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones To: Eli Zaretskii , Olivier Certner Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> > Given all that, I'm not sure we should single out these new styles at >> > all. Once in 10 years any constant is eligible for a change. >> >> Then maybe it's my turn not to understand. To me, allowing them to be changed >> in 10 years from now is singling them out with respect to, e.g., "bsd" which, >> as you said yourself in preamble, should not be changed after all these years. >> >> Apart from this caveat, I'm fine with your conclusion. > > Let's see that patch of yours, then. Ping. Any progress with coming up with a patch? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 19 12:16:01 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2023 16:16:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57707 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qidOL-00037I-1R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 12:16:01 -0400 Received: from smtp2-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.2]:30088) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qidOH-000377-EX for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 12:16:00 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [90.118.140.172]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@free.fr) by smtp2-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D9532006AE; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 18:15:45 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=free.fr; s=smtp-20201208; t=1695140147; bh=+AqLip9N/HSfOjn/w5GBSroHresLvJClepfAs+ceiLo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=dFP9N3fqKvHfurYBeX5GDY2Bv5zCHHFwbH3IevRGYAP3o5QuCWKEmVhkyJTjCOxCf r915esU9odw4/kmN765xcVHKDjGrJTfQ0OqHzVyQnwYzmJYlWaBFq4FNZHxHF2gEAI 9tGXTWvHrP69xWLPpbAWyOtQ+Fvb6c0M1KDTtk+07SyyM6Lioptk+9UHoiFLaJVFA4 YcvlBydZF/RZ7Los/4389jALg+5UTPjDN7U4MKVj4Uupe5Qb2vOqNDXpF7A0bMThmx JC1S49/1v3yQ4X6SyK01b+MB0uPtR5/BlSrMADniEJpASuZPKZ8cIPUOv/3QlahckC wglTU+4MepfwA== From: Olivier Certner To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 18:15:44 +0200 Message-ID: <4916306.ghxcXLinNW@ravel> In-Reply-To: References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <83cz3qtyno.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Stefan, > Ping. Any progress with coming up with a patch? I have been using a complete version since a short time after creation of this bug, but haven't had much time to work on upstreaming that, and probably won't in the coming weeks. Refining the new styles to cope with some corner cases unfortunately required a couple of new fixup functions, and minor changes in CC mode that may be controversial, such as setting all variables as buffer-local when `c-style- variables-are-local-p' is true, or working around the weird behavior of CC mode concerning `for' clauses (this one surely proved controversial, see #63286; it is possible to do away with a lineup function as a workaround, at the price of elegance and performance, but this is not the current setup I'm running so coming back to a vanilla one will require more work on my part). Additionally, given the fallout of #63286, I think you can understand I'm not contemplating a new discussion with the CC mode maintainer with great joy. In the context of this bug, being looked down on by someone who provided mostly wrong technical answers and that otherwise showed a pronounced tendency to spread FUD is not exactly my conception of an enriching collaboration. Certainly, my final answer there wasn't neat, but "as you sow, so shall you reap". More generally, I've found that interacting with upstream often wastes way too much time than it should simply because people don't really read carefully what they have been sent and/or have trouble with the nuances, sometimes even insisting on focusing on mostly irrelevant details. You don't have to search far for an example, look no further than this bug's initial discussion. I unfortunately know of several other examples, half of which I've personally not been involved in at all. At a higher level, to put it bluntly (and exaggerating in order to make sure the point gets through), a sample of discussions in the mailing list in the past months gives more the impression of a clique wanting to preserve their own way of working/thinking rather than genuinely addressing the concerns of other users and developers (yes, most of them are "outsiders", which is the reason why some "insiders" apparently think they know better even concerning their own requests). Besides the atmosphere that all this creates, more practically I don't have much time to contribute here so when I do so it's a significant effort on my part. In exchange, I *demand* that others be respectful for that by making the effort of carefully reading and understanding what I'm writing, and trying to stay to the point as much as possible. Else, I'm simply likely to loose interest and keep all my Emacs developments and customizations for myself (in 20+ years, they are numerous). I'm hoping your nomination as a co-maintainer will help improve this situation, so I'm sorry to have had to drop that on you. I've not given up on the idea to finally be able to upstream all that, but it most likely won't happen in the short term (next weeks/a few months) for time constraints. Also, I hope that, when the time comes, the next interactions will be treated with the goodwill and productivity I expect (and which some of the "core" members have already shown they are largely capable of to me). So this bug is effectively on hold on my side. I would simply leave it open for the time being, but then it's your call on how you want to manage that administratively. If you prefer to have a clean backlog, you can close it and I'll re-open it later when I'm ready. Thanks and regards. -- Olivier Certner From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 21 11:23:07 2023 Received: (at 63072) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Sep 2023 15:23:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34642 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qjLWF-0008LS-Az for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:23:07 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]:48483) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qjLWB-0008Kx-3L for 63072@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:23:06 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2c108e106f0so18794711fa.1 for <63072@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:22:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695309767; x=1695914567; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8YD1HidvavPJc/XA0GjFG7aYxRqL34XLyUZrl5JbSHk=; b=WaTCDuWlPLpKluVTsrnZYxrjY7fG+Xj3eb0HRGt/jtgbrAxkhpH1BIxNLA8rlc04wB uvIl3QM5NfjVIvsnjT49ang2oezikRB6VIHPpYlNsbaKNYANmdpxvjA5OnoR3IrXgGq9 UzHS0fz0lxtRzLW4jE0LIQoBgcCvaZ9zHzSVq9sp67fE0oxMtWX+91BY2DkQG53gfFUH p702xm3V6ntmL9+SUjPWSkZF+ovomtyfkjJEsUVjHoe2RmjFyuod4ofE3nMR4gAhy98I NFv8eeEukeokRBmDL3zLfWiRjjXAFDvJxvOfYEaH0gB6OpHcKtgwmwv13okJrr8nlZze gByA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695309767; x=1695914567; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8YD1HidvavPJc/XA0GjFG7aYxRqL34XLyUZrl5JbSHk=; b=V4YyhrzEoi6WLYeKR3pl+w8VhYHChn+2fmwFdDSuaD79GLko7e4W3eBlO3tkThbADZ 9Nq8VSW8w7tC8h6t1L2f0E2qV8nBGkosi09EY5ibjGFT+/xBXuTsvEhpvUMngHzAe4O/ jmMVK0cWd8O9UBxZRi/MhRTmZ17aZJL6tjdFSsVGXhtjkruQJ8b1HHGpR+hWuVPXJbd6 l73p4s/E9FlV86/REdFH4+8/7SAUYtssYt3p9wCKYVj6sj4z6k3Fbn5F8kSUsDxdKStQ y7TwzdKXcOoWYOnVI1v3JSgs081jqKTMuo5fJBoVQa5AbKA4l3yMsvZUWyn8AX2bxlFq E4Wg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxssilA1adGfKToaFM6ascQe/+4tynb/mrSGhglstFFB65fpby7 kV7+C18tLOvsEE3G7oA3eZuYWO5Ss52wEgdaYbI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH67ogEB8NGxlbNTuSzg52J17wzmiGb31YzcWRaqlbsYkXXHb7/FQqOKg1bWnwoBschZjPYJ3CfOZlKwx3P7/A= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a404:0:b0:2b6:a827:164f with SMTP id p4-20020a2ea404000000b002b6a827164fmr5265536ljn.10.1695309766623; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:22:45 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <4916306.ghxcXLinNW@ravel> References: <5023567.7IPSAfTSoR@ravel> <83cz3qtyno.fsf@gnu.org> <4916306.ghxcXLinNW@ravel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:22:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#63072: 28.2; CC Mode: Fix "bsd" style and add "freebsd" and "openbsd" ones To: Olivier Certner Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 63072 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 63072@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Olivier, Olivier Certner writes: > I have been using a complete version since a short time after creation of this > bug, but haven't had much time to work on upstreaming that, and probably won't > in the coming weeks. > > Refining the new styles to cope with some corner cases unfortunately required > a couple of new fixup functions, and minor changes in CC mode that may be > controversial, such as setting all variables as buffer-local when `c-style- > variables-are-local-p' is true, or working around the weird behavior of CC > mode concerning `for' clauses (this one surely proved controversial, see > #63286; it is possible to do away with a lineup function as a workaround, at > the price of elegance and performance, but this is not the current setup I'm > running so coming back to a vanilla one will require more work on my part). > > Additionally, given the fallout of #63286, I think you can understand I'm not > contemplating a new discussion with the CC mode maintainer with great joy. In > the context of this bug, being looked down on by someone who provided mostly > wrong technical answers and that otherwise showed a pronounced tendency to > spread FUD is not exactly my conception of an enriching collaboration. > Certainly, my final answer there wasn't neat, but "as you sow, so shall you > reap". > > More generally, I've found that interacting with upstream often wastes way too > much time than it should simply because people don't really read carefully > what they have been sent and/or have trouble with the nuances, sometimes even > insisting on focusing on mostly irrelevant details. You don't have to search > far for an example, look no further than this bug's initial discussion. I > unfortunately know of several other examples, half of which I've personally > not been involved in at all. At a higher level, to put it bluntly (and > exaggerating in order to make sure the point gets through), a sample of > discussions in the mailing list in the past months gives more the impression > of a clique wanting to preserve their own way of working/thinking rather than > genuinely addressing the concerns of other users and developers (yes, most of > them are "outsiders", which is the reason why some "insiders" apparently think > they know better even concerning their own requests). Besides the atmosphere > that all this creates, more practically I don't have much time to contribute > here so when I do so it's a significant effort on my part. In exchange, I > *demand* that others be respectful for that by making the effort of carefully > reading and understanding what I'm writing, and trying to stay to the point as > much as possible. Else, I'm simply likely to loose interest and keep all my > Emacs developments and customizations for myself (in 20+ years, they are > numerous). I'm hoping your nomination as a co-maintainer will help improve > this situation, so I'm sorry to have had to drop that on you. I understand your position, and let me be the first to acknowledge that email can be a challenging medium to work in. From my point of view, I can only urge everyone to try work together even when there are or have been misunderstandings. I also urge people to give each other the benefit of the doubt. If someone asks a question, more likely than not it is a genuine question. Emacs contributors come from all types of backgrounds, and there's always a chance that someone is lacking the necessary context to understand what is being said. Or they didn't yet have their morning coffee... you know, shit happens. Let's be patient with each other when we make mistakes or oversee some important aspect. The GNU Kind Communication Guidelines is recommended reading as a broad outline of the kind of environment we try to foster (even though we don't always succeed, admittedly): https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html My goal is that we can find a way to work constructively and move forward towards our common goal of improving Emacs. That would be the best outcome. If we fail, let's try again, and let's try to do better. In my experience, we usually get the best result if we focus on the specifics of the issue at hand. > I've not given up on the idea to finally be able to upstream all that, but it > most likely won't happen in the short term (next weeks/a few months) for time > constraints. Also, I hope that, when the time comes, the next interactions > will be treated with the goodwill and productivity I expect (and which some of > the "core" members have already shown they are largely capable of to me). > > So this bug is effectively on hold on my side. I would simply leave it open > for the time being, but then it's your call on how you want to manage that > administratively. If you prefer to have a clean backlog, you can close it and > I'll re-open it later when I'm ready. I suggest keeping the bug open for now, as a reminder about this work. There is no rush, but I'm looking forward to seeing your patch once you can find the time to work on it. Thanks again for your contributions.