From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 13:48:20 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Mar 2023 17:48:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34438 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piIrL-0002u9-Um for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:48:20 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:53170) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piI86-0001hk-4B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1piI7v-0007Hg-Al for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:33 -0400 Received: from mail-yw1-x112d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::112d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1piI7t-0003mm-Og for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:23 -0400 Received: by mail-yw1-x112d.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-536af432ee5so427105287b3.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 10:01:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680282080; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=iQ87uMC/hCE0QCh2yp6VZWDc9uTPRwhm2PdimeB6hE0=; b=UZP+cEcUHlKU6U5jPzPfthVCJ/unqAUKxDmYb+cKRuojZz4oQPlkiHuu7BW0tmCRhd WvG94OHYTWiABueTcNC7zIeIjNMM7oEUVOAqonqt6OZ1nepRdewlyIajG085hEuOqwYk X2P4eAYekW/UbjtamsmsnWdFkRjDq6Kb+D1xs2UxEzQ1VbXJUHnp8fu7/612QXtLuR/e es609ZH0l+GtcCMGkuJt8QD6uziM0P5msPEIXvBZUcNdIj2aoGqn4GBRmkPGJVg7smex VZLUqdr9d4KM3cRWrqFTXa/BJWFexqTShuVeFTXpDSPcPK993dzEPEnPkYV51m5LlkRf tT+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680282080; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=iQ87uMC/hCE0QCh2yp6VZWDc9uTPRwhm2PdimeB6hE0=; b=Vh2eQFUabvucmsBwOH+hsSs3/kyVWnSzgXT1HRmVjS/8XzYXm9bhmKr3OMk0zBYOBP aKgekJzdJGLcrWHkFo2KICCh1dwOEl8C0gGGYSIY7xSxwautoribDD7jYsZgwn1/KXrt Uk4zPtoBr6TuOFLR42wdfb/zsHk4xTIquSO4xM+NMZZtBYD8/c4VQDkjmMaHmvDmndOl hjpdfO21TJ+HHStsdERShaTT3x1mbqn1f3/wZlH9CdpxSzcL4PpwxRP8zaJteClaA7JL q6L62mNYPVo3GFKK/axrN4KG2WYyglCRgerR76qjK1ZQnZ68eUCNXKHLHLPV/rc6VhHS rXXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dd6sx2pRiMwjfJ1PA2UGci54cfgRSrtHOxGZeQZkTEKx8aRSMY Fg6RaGE4tZWVCiwtmWkpv6RmYCOJVxp+XDrJKtghP9GLUMk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350b/liPoxoNqTpOw+odVdh1QDotHm7tSj4zBFwbRlSVlej9O6vMFv5ZDVAwOwYqaPIgTOXSUws3aYMJd0F7ASfc= X-Received: by 2002:a81:b647:0:b0:534:d71f:14e6 with SMTP id h7-20020a81b647000000b00534d71f14e6mr13220249ywk.9.1680282080112; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 10:01:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alberto Salvia Novella Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 19:01:09 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000081f54d05f8352834" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::112d; envelope-from=es20490446e@gmail.com; helo=mail-yw1-x112d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -1 X-Spam_score: -0.2 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:48:18 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --00000000000081f54d05f8352834 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In the past if you did: cp --no-clobber $in $out And "out" existed, "cp" exited with 0. But now, with coreutils 9.2, it exists with 1. Is this on purpose? (When replying include my email in the field "to", as I'm not subscribed to this list) --00000000000081f54d05f8352834 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the past if you did:
cp --no-clobber $in= $out

And "out" existed, "cp" = exited with 0. But now, with coreutils 9.2, it exists with 1.
Is this on purpose?

(When replying inc= lude my email in the field "to", as I'm not subscribed to thi= s list)
--00000000000081f54d05f8352834-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 14:32:47 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Mar 2023 18:32:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34498 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piJYN-0004EH-01 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:32:47 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:58756) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piJYL-0004E9-6e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:32:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1piJYK-0001J6-N5 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:32:44 -0400 Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([2001:470:ea4a:1:5054:ff:fec7:86e4]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1piJYJ-0007rC-2M for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:32:44 -0400 References: User-agent: mu4e 1.8.14; emacs 29.0.60 From: Sam James To: Alberto Salvia Novella Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 19:30:47 +0100 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <878rfczs90.fsf@gentoo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:470:ea4a:1:5054:ff:fec7:86e4; envelope-from=sam@gentoo.org; helo=smtp.gentoo.org X-Spam_score_int: -41 X-Spam_score: -4.2 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-coreutils@gnu.org, 62572@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Schwartz X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Alberto Salvia Novella writes: > In the past if you did: > cp --no-clobber $in $out > > And "out" existed, "cp" exited with 0. But now, with coreutils 9.2, it > exists with 1. > > Is this on purpose? > > (When replying include my email in the field "to", as I'm not subscribed to > this list) We hit this in Gentoo at https://bugs.gentoo.org/902751. We concluded the usage in the ebuild ("build script") was wrong, given that the coreutils-9.2 NEWS says: > 'cp -n' and 'mv -n' now exit with nonzero status if they skip their > action because the destination exists, and likewise for 'cp -i', > 'ln -i', and 'mv -i' when the user declines. (POSIX specifies > this for 'cp -i' and 'mv -i'.) It still was a bit unexpected though given POSIX doesn't specify -n. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iOUEARYKAI0WIQQlpruI3Zt2TGtVQcJzhAn1IN+RkAUCZCcnPF8UgAAAAAAuAChp c3N1ZXItZnByQG5vdGF0aW9ucy5vcGVucGdwLmZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4ubmV0MjVB NkJCODhERDlCNzY0QzZCNTU0MUMyNzM4NDA5RjUyMERGOTE5MA8cc2FtQGdlbnRv by5vcmcACgkQc4QJ9SDfkZDAEwD9GY1uDH31orPzVFT0Co03ERjIX1Uqa0Z+Uxqk 5tGntjYA/RfTXrgjb6fwKJqehmuMr4iiPVFfz+eJlTlDt52TaHwC =DQWT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 16:01:15 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Mar 2023 20:01:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34607 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piKvz-0006xj-F4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:01:15 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:58904) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piKvx-0006xU-EM for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:01:13 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C9B3C097AFA; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id AAm_YO3VN_rt; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02733C097AFB; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu B02733C097AFB DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1680292867; bh=Rjg2SJrOPzCiSNVutlQbd/bagBN8B/nWC2HaXqhiJr4=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=owcv2f3n4GmZzQ96JIoAPe08ywrScegninTwP+s4EpAqr1dJclyE1FnhK1xeYYW6U QT/WKyXgfosH7zoG6UQNVREefxCtFzqac8xpb+brWVRUK3hRuad5SQMxRh/ADpwoOq jk0KiUV6bH8vVqTpOoBfUSnCrS8Nz3KHrk4iq5z88+uOJ+QZBz/wdAhPzMZVB5h/Pn NRSqw3PzTyb9c8/PqhvwBBymT4aU3lQL3YelUMv11k4FSlVHktKVEYzOwxuvgVPvvp RGEzFfHSjK+sPF5ZeHsOOsgFa5ioMfBlSdmChR9Lc4vOfqXHxVZPmu/dLEPnDewC1h IN72A4ITF4MfQ== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id dlI5t480JsjS; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 895BE3C097AFA; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Alberto Salvia Novella References: From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On 2023-03-31 10:01, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > Is this on purpose? Yes, part of the idea was to let shell programmers easily test whether cp successfully copied the data. Having cp -i conform to POSIX was a lesser consideration, though it's a bit nicer if -n and -i are somewhat consistent. For what it's worth, the old behavior wasn't documented and the new behavior is. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 16:38:18 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Mar 2023 20:38:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34642 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piLVq-0007zv-Jt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:38:18 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:53965) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piLVo-0007zc-QK for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:38:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1680295080; i=svenjoac@gmx.de; bh=PQHTFIVuvC4cynSDPdofxBTPpLG4bLL9x3NKl95l7n4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=N0oAuFNgDMHZbxN90+MtGLYJGR5RcjmxwLNIOOEgeEzaEO4VVb73zr/iKfPQb6oDc sDIcRyMEbBwRJj5dTJ8/Ii8E6HvySSU0/Yk5QDnuWablZm1bYSkqhpv/zEOnwGuBWp bAqOsyrlQDf6IabU6KXMQK+IBcOZusnyAcJ8hs44ofLXJCK98I3/RYLmyrCzunNnLT lmgzl5Ko9I25ufWP4MLNA6jyx6QG5VKePM5DhT+kDaQepI0JHlNgcDwsqj1q6Nd2MW C+jUvcXLnVe3XU6FWr8XNhheyGBYGBpSs8k8AFpHt5Mew9JybAbc5FYggkoNK7XoHl SRfqWSLqLP4IQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from localhost.localdomain ([79.223.56.94]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MV67o-1ppSWc1APu-00S86s; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 22:38:00 +0200 Received: by localhost.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F20068008F; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 22:37:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Sven Joachim To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed In-Reply-To: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:01:07 -0700") References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 22:37:58 +0200 Message-ID: <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:IPcBZ/7HCu7Wdlj7IyHgmKRD+bla+Gcx5qPHsq48j4vKNSa3laV 2cdxzxLMURA3bA4Or+PUz2X9IeyO1ikPDK0hFQjU7bqWQxYoNaG9O/iZmlK4rhR6+zqNKM5 r1NSehCRB1Vm5v7yzXzvLe611aOG2Dl1lHU3Ic7R/hH8BjcfIlE3x6Z0LgMz+NAPfYBLIf2 oLCnMzNE25jJ7aRfe85Fw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+eoMK6eEgIs=;GsW5ZjXOwja1qt5ud50CcO9LUs0 e42GjySc4vNjt04uQMg39G5ZfwCeJD8PWPi1dNILawct87tMpmQ7kGI1ptFHuPUa9WWERphFq 7ag0qfXJ/OSMB+frybnqWI1m4DuPFeHj5PfDqtv86Xpqj00pdb9lblCysiVInm9Ew1hO28LBu eD1quw1/usRiH6ftJIOVsbLCkiUv6p7X7jNkVCJQMiMYHZZCUtAj6DltrGZrwV3+WzbTGd322 jHdxqrG9eLNPhv5fu/lXp/KUPcDBRnZ8T4sBlXGCnz3ouMtDQDU21JemDt+dr5T5PBSoP4Ryr AzDfLEoFm7tQkuKTxvmURDKyxuJ4epK2VkKX9zOqqksiyY4hYzJRt+hynbeY8h/1cRb0SHfnq ti4BwHNw6/XdGsM80yZPb8jeD9w2q1Ms/TLPHmuHs6cJ5WGCGznfBWwDDwF+xfJRDlkbps79u 4Sj9q4WUtkYjlhAO7ZcxjvX2c5ABFy+aijjCZfe4o+15oLwROjgpb1Ydk5w5eZd87N3EiuUqC 25e4JzpIWkscxlKzGBztg2RzhrR3IWqn8w1GsmXxmbBICVZ2k+cuD1cLlR1q99WvN1zKjLvJk NPpaGBl1d+L8x3n4ADiivkZbzXAPw005/Ns3j1EwZyK2mzLphmT1IkgDtmkBT2Yzg82nBqAVh MPuHgJ+CVmYGFTg+cR6dy1Fxo6WPBpo7Bm1Y1wIf+oA0MTpzB1jjz/7+WtMAbqMEH01yRiZSo QY/45Qc85iRm4dEGoWk7mGVB8a2H+hmvZIfwVu9WpfwVKiVsJH85kN2sEBea+k1XZ9Pztn4ky whxuzXMY3yb7WUMDDiI8ZH2s8zrKgwCHfavLvdWy1PhKM1i1dZBc08fGdAeMgMJZL8Ul8F7o5 88R7MhFvdV1Q2YnZlGk7xMlfK/Crbli2ggKC7yK2miV5ia5zzTlvBaOiF+Z/J6kPsNJzPaPj+ 37CbNA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Alberto Salvia Novella , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2023-03-31 13:01 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 2023-03-31 10:01, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: >> Is this on purpose? > > Yes, part of the idea was to let shell programmers easily test whether > cp successfully copied the data. By making them stop using the '-n' option, since they cannot rely on the exit code anyway? > Having cp -i conform to POSIX was a > lesser consideration, though it's a bit nicer if -n and -i are > somewhat consistent. It is not so nice that this is probably going to break several dozen packages in Debian alone. :-( Cheers, Sven From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 16:53:51 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Mar 2023 20:53:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piLkt-0000Bm-7L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:53:51 -0400 Received: from mail-yw1-f172.google.com ([209.85.128.172]:35660) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piLkr-0000BK-6M for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:53:49 -0400 Received: by mail-yw1-f172.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5416698e889so438244227b3.2 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680296023; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=f7s/6HDNNYW2kX/B9BZ7ZOMn+lMgdJyO21dRi4bFE1I=; b=DQPTEOSWa1wFroP/7Mbd2wACyJnGwafcOvJ2P7vIDLy98UqeySYu8k9+jlW6q/5plg ozI4twi7tZbNjIBU/yIACvIyv1pX+s4DwFV3fwJ7xxfGbV4adxL1+c9v28Vx0uSMYA/L M0YxyfSu3RF4I3cWPtwH6D5/u/MFFN+5c+AXS4gJCoV5VQ56SuoIla5WBcteAZ0jTWNO cNYPOPy01v04tY+0hFwWwgvefGjITKmZctxyTU4RZZqwp35tWZpl613pqR4v0xA17nZM xUo8zRopVuufc1UkP5AHTZVttCHyfYTyeBxl2oRPFRbFDuDP8D+8M5/D63Ts8JVjKTto IeRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680296023; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=f7s/6HDNNYW2kX/B9BZ7ZOMn+lMgdJyO21dRi4bFE1I=; b=XnSHtF3XLcPHA+gl79Wu8vtQTqcHmhl6Yh96ilP3ndGn4iMcwEEQH88WTdPjFk2EOa /TRXvaL8fANQcM6Yffpo2e0ghBtZ/1hID2JAyVJYb8t7XoJ3sYU0JCJExhLe0CW3hBox oqOGye1IXFFHcIqx/L7C4NBgSPXcs0h5YOj2Kz8lNt3ljOfGuX6RqzKfnH+ZoutTqC4p T98QS61D2MrFmz9VTI40JUutpBFXAZZI1OpfTH1/JF+e2pkMIb4AUA+f49fecx9gQT7o zmIjZCEHnRKd+nTRtrrq0kgUs+//FbnruMhlEgIUI67UxT+0OQvRi1CbgMwJrPs7VbvH 9ddA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eEe988dM6hxzXUR5wAGjFWoEQGNCWVOAmwHEali0aCluNIkXl+ alhEuIO9Rmal+y76b04RC9XxKn11wUN4o6cJKQg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bedWvR3PC1y03sYiP4fW4knQ/ZjcYXqRTDoxMalcidHraJiA3yC2FcZw7aEiCuBJbzVILYlw1L5wyuD2W5/uQ= X-Received: by 2002:a81:4b89:0:b0:545:632d:e78b with SMTP id y131-20020a814b89000000b00545632de78bmr6285091ywa.0.1680296023397; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:53:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> From: Alberto Salvia Novella Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 22:53:31 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000979ab405f83867b0" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000979ab405f83867b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" https://youtu.be/o_kh1_gOkwk On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 at 22:01, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 2023-03-31 10:01, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > > Is this on purpose? > > Yes, part of the idea was to let shell programmers easily test whether > cp successfully copied the data. Having cp -i conform to POSIX was a > lesser consideration, though it's a bit nicer if -n and -i are somewhat > consistent. > > For what it's worth, the old behavior wasn't documented and the new > behavior is. > --000000000000979ab405f83867b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 at 22:01, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 2023-03-31 10:01, Alberto Sal= via Novella wrote:
> Is this on purpose?

Yes, part of the idea was to let shell programmers easily test whether
cp successfully copied the data. Having cp -i conform to POSIX was a
lesser consideration, though it's a bit nicer if -n and -i are somewhat=
consistent.

For what it's worth, the old behavior wasn't documented and the new=
behavior is.
--000000000000979ab405f83867b0-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 17:15:58 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Mar 2023 21:15:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34700 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piM6H-0000uE-So for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 17:15:58 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:51046) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piM6F-0000ty-QC for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 17:15:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853783C097AFA; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id W_uIDjaef7Yt; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B743C097AFB; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:15:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 77B743C097AFB DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1680297347; bh=w3R9uwkCy0rFvFJNUkoVop+EcHPRiwkeaQ1g32NuPcY=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=FHPSknz+syo0RBLHv4ummSvJjdqD9ZplPc0UFkqJ+YLARQp0pG6w+n6N0YOAAokzl rnEj+Y3OPPv+7UO3ezuVMuctHvxVc+1lmskS0pCPRBNaumODjiM5KR9UZsGHGUtnky sTQpi4OqDYcdt2Qit4Hx9aXWau47hXhN5rDPidqd4/M/bdfLuvinSfZ64xspca7GGe uDRfa0meiWN1DSC6t0SOT2SLnj/Qdb3ZuLvpcwlIwRzXph2tz/RhtDCm1J4tizeVqt twcZgDADmIfGBdMmpDalB5cDzd3Koqs7ThENCDienlgjijKY5rQIojc+G/1cJU5qXI s9NZTVyVkliYA== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id BsslVSn6-znW; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DACD3C097AFA; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:15:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Sven Joachim References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed In-Reply-To: <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Alberto Salvia Novella , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On 2023-03-31 13:37, Sven Joachim wrote: > On 2023-03-31 13:01 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > >> part of the idea was to let shell programmers easily test whether >> cp successfully copied the data. > > By making them stop using the '-n' option, since they cannot rely on the > exit code anyway? Portable code could not rely on the exit status anyway, as FreeBSD cp agrees with the new GNU behavior, not the old. See: https://bugs.gnu.org/61105 It was a messy situation where there was no perfect solution. That being said, there is an advantage of consistency with FreeBSD, and the new GNU behavior does avoid the race mentioned in Bug#61105. 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[95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id s7-20020a05600c45c700b003ee2a0d49dbsm11049204wmo.25.2023.03.31.14.32.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2023 14:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 22:32:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/109.0 Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Paul Eggert , Sven Joachim References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Alberto Salvia Novella , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) On 31/03/2023 22:15, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 2023-03-31 13:37, Sven Joachim wrote: >> On 2023-03-31 13:01 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: >> >>> part of the idea was to let shell programmers easily test whether >>> cp successfully copied the data. >> >> By making them stop using the '-n' option, since they cannot rely on the >> exit code anyway? > > Portable code could not rely on the exit status anyway, as FreeBSD cp > agrees with the new GNU behavior, not the old. See: > > https://bugs.gnu.org/61105 > > It was a messy situation where there was no perfect solution. That being > said, there is an advantage of consistency with FreeBSD, and the new GNU > behavior does avoid the race mentioned in Bug#61105. Perhaps we should support: --no-clobber[={skip, fail (default)}] so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=skip to get the old behavior? An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support: --update[={none, older (default)}] where --update=none would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior. Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case, to make it easier for users to see what the issue is. cheers, Pádraig From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 19:29:12 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Mar 2023 23:29:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34837 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piOBE-0004hc-23 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 19:29:12 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:60536) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piOBC-0004hN-T4 for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 19:29:11 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F623C097AFA; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id PI2B8nSx3pVI; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEAF3C097AFE; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:29:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 0AEAF3C097AFE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1680305344; bh=DW2jG9Hirl0xqCx0UXAYyNZsYqW6at2nOHr71hkfM9M=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=KsKQSOL8VwcH2boDEW26NDpLYBaHC4gm2AX4z0ebQUFvZf8P4r8mK/uLyBiwj46sq 6+s1ScteyPH32Wbo56F+dG+CJPLOaEJYGmpvR6GYcvF4c3rL526t5DK+lDm/fexqzN WUjUDfs2ffFNrJxe5INTJnIu1TzhTq3dZyUgZUrIETJk9hLNgMxZ4/soHk+vPAA1+k 79P84QtOMTcjdxuA1bZxA14PozAFKSTZFzDmNldVXuR+DEkuXzPb0CW6Qmew3JQnA3 s6Xv7NNUaDn8A5L0VvdTM/FUtwQOFy/EiLd2t4ZdFxZiNa887MWNjv3L20ZAqYfruf oCH7kpgjCeePA== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id dXxqsdUSNxmp; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CBD773C097AFA; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:29:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=c3=a1draig_Brady?= , Sven Joachim References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Alberto Salvia Novella , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On 2023-03-31 14:32, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > Perhaps we should support: > =C2=A0 --no-clobber[=3D{skip, fail (default)}] >=20 > so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=3Dskip > to get the old behavior? >=20 > An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support: > =C2=A0 --update[=3D{none, older (default)}] > where --update=3Dnone would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior. The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We could=20 generalize it a bit further, e.g.: --skip-diagnose[=3D{yes,no}] Whether to diagnose a copying action being skipped. --skip-fail[=3D{yes,no}] Whether exit status should be 1 when skipping a copying action. Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv. All these extra options might be overkill, though. > Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case, > to make it easier for users to see what the issue is. FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed, so=20 it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 20:05:26 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Apr 2023 00:05:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34843 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piOkI-0005nM-AK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 20:05:26 -0400 Received: from bird.elm.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.212.17]:5087) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piOkG-0005nE-Dd for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 20:05:25 -0400 X-Sender-Id: instrampxe0y3a|x-authuser|calestyo@scientia.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073BD5C086C for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 1 Apr 2023 00:05:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from cpanel-007-fra.hostingww.com (unknown [127.0.0.6]) (Authenticated sender: instrampxe0y3a) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1DBEB5C01DF for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 1 Apr 2023 00:05:21 +0000 (UTC) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-2022; d=mailchannels.net; t=1680307522; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=FJWpln4mFn1eXSt8fP0A5YvMDZILiy6lB0Iyc4HLBnJkbbXkFJi87wPT7fen2R8fWdpYQz TVh3xfYzNlhgyhAcYnOagMzVYvg3qmgqWl1EatnaR6nCvjH/ANixhpSv2Zb1RhJ5gcGKXN WYvn1zxok2Ny2Wjd9MPfa4ZmPdy3/D9wolJXdflqYg/64kMiEKJ9sYqiR+gkrk1ARELd8W RxVcCOYGseRvRdZPzY24RHp3HdsiqmhtKPYTqFiv7De4Q4rByvgNZliTubmjqoOSEcwAQa bNaKn736uQg3E9JfwRKqGL1+nAwGnCjadMONXDRtpp9ZUEj63ECWLKuIQvszsA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchannels.net; s=arc-2022; t=1680307522; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4cqPkFDYjfUce9WY/SZSjMrof8KbShSndXXfkvX+1Mw=; b=IiWJNIstfTfgb7F2jRNLeaBIWFN9a6gi3UNSG2sYz2OV6ENHN5EyPkZSi2iSW/acl3gQkq sQXES/jxFfKtUBucv5vX3wW+NBC2Spsc6VW+hbdyguKXMqAALjYDwvHf0chExQ3dquD9a6 6QNIuGjbax2sOhColPPmZQFXBkbm+FeAWvJhG4xbGEZjCLyBGtymzfNqcMvTI99NvhYmNE HWXPqu3YSR5cvCtChQe4neZmrLzzWGPqakP7r6TiP6oTSXHJA8iKGCbDOq/tUicjGecUAu o5CxuHfrmmHJVrA8nuh1L8II3+XFvxT4vEIgjAM+2n0JW7oj76z5/7cjInOzeQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; rspamd-5468d68f6d-srkzh; auth=pass smtp.auth=instrampxe0y3a smtp.mailfrom=calestyo@scientia.org X-Sender-Id: instrampxe0y3a|x-authuser|calestyo@scientia.org X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: instrampxe0y3a|x-authuser|calestyo@scientia.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: instrampxe0y3a X-Coil-Tart: 251485a561916450_1680307522597_2433716393 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1680307522597:2884617402 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1680307522597 Received: from cpanel-007-fra.hostingww.com (cpanel-007-fra.hostingww.com [3.69.87.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.104.253.204 (trex/6.7.2); Sat, 01 Apr 2023 00:05:22 +0000 Received: from p5b071320.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([91.7.19.32]:45268 helo=heisenberg.fritz.box) by cpanel-007-fra.hostingww.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1piOkC-0003Rx-3A for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 00:05:20 +0000 Message-ID: <88b8a3bcc5312f0703f0ef29590b369c86a72ff9.camel@scientia.org> Subject: Re: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed From: Christoph Anton Mitterer To: 62572@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2023 02:05:15 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.46.4-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AuthUser: calestyo@scientia.org X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) In principle I have no strong opinion on what the behaviour should be. But if one strictly follows the POSIX wording: > The following exit values shall be returned: > 0 > All input files were [copied/moved] successfully. > >0 > An error occurred. The change seems to make sense, as one could argue that the above ain't the case with -n if the destination already exists. It's however open to debate whether --no-clobber - were it in POSIX - would have fallen into that spirit. But at least as of corutils 9.1 's cp info page it was documented as: >An exit status of zero indicates success, and a nonzero value >indicates failure. together with: > =E2=80=98-n=E2=80=99 > =E2=80=98--no-clobber=E2=80=99 > Do not overwrite an existing file; silently do nothing instead. > This option overrides a previous =E2=80=98-i=E2=80=99 option. This o= ption is > mutually exclusive with =E2=80=98-b=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98--backup=E2= =80=99 option. that doesn't seem like failure to me. So it kinda breaks the "promise" made by the documentation. I like P=C3=A1draig's idea in message #26... but no idea whether it should be more POSIX like (thus non-zero when nothing was copied) or more backwards compatible. Cheers, Chris. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 21:37:07 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Apr 2023 01:37:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34915 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piQB1-0008KL-7A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 21:37:07 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com ([209.85.219.181]:37530) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piQAz-0008Jn-LC for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 21:37:06 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id j7so29380321ybg.4 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 18:37:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680313020; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qn8R8H+gE6PyeaavPRwcAnyEru0rw9SnhXFeN8f8uoU=; b=WyV0c4sX0oEm/7rYZVCxHiQwha9vCHA7jbEg/Qdhlip+Zh+5qSGfmmucVmzxP4BzCY YtAXyLyIyHMXUBfuwtR8C2MvAbDWqREJ6e34axM6fMHOkVYnMsiY+NrvlU7hqIEujyVe 9TOX0ieyzB2jQi1vUYCeUYDVaT0kQ5wm0SzMtoGdiAGQnzjuERFZnwpIKznQAn/QMSj5 3W5TBd/+/2iWneDdvWZcTTBWJEJs8xlVmR3mqgjcg2exg7ajTBXUDqnA3/loAlqJJTE2 stu/ahFt045iR1RWwKs2dUkifHkW0pq/YNRLvFvvJOFT8GPqjjy94JeszuHkjJBheooy kchw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680313020; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=qn8R8H+gE6PyeaavPRwcAnyEru0rw9SnhXFeN8f8uoU=; b=hQzn06x+jwJzfABu3RkrHqswDgZimcjnjlbvkWVwjTVD+QuOkDiCS5PVzoQ1nLLsI/ 7MJa/8hEj3NFTdZQKGAG+JobCj0gCAFtUr7BFjv1raJfppWzbz3sgl1UNz1IDhBgOS5m agFcWQ3bA7f0XfAmtVhDzn+MMimr0mzpEKcIWKAR7M+riGsF/fPyoI+4DZEg1tYmajGL Q6Y3xX48x+zoe563w1pXnIqG4J5Qqyn4mW+NpNdTk5PuuNDSOGKOrPHcmPec4w3agFaI vXhiMtv6YXmTodcomwrN6M8+3IflLQTZLgsf6OkKL8Y+5AD7yKMR7HoxEfs3lpSu8Ipn 2fLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9frbhEG0UkqAQ2BaaZX5ys+Cr5Wgo5P+DIXRNiIQPeTUibwYdBw bnsxU4StUDc7xqfsR6eNtkaALtg/gQ/oi4Tx6gA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bki6y6yBkJyTspt7T3xjvfcmExOCJyrkAKeOBqTQfcUIEh2a9u+7prp8zL16Aw+nGVMDO2XKLyJ5WkbWi97ls= X-Received: by 2002:a25:8712:0:b0:b6a:2590:6c7f with SMTP id a18-20020a258712000000b00b6a25906c7fmr14962400ybl.2.1680313019922; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 18:36:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Alberto Salvia Novella Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 03:36:48 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a9fe5305f83c5cfb" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , Sven Joachim , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000a9fe5305f83c5cfb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I get the impression that right now --no-clover is optimized for the less common scenarios, while making it less useful for the common ones. Also --update isn't a substitute of --no-clover. As --no-clover is for copying when the file is missing, not when it isn't updated. For example imagine that I have a config template, and a script copies the template only if it is missing using --no-clover. If I did the same with --update it could happen the following: the package that provides the template updates, then --update will override the config even if it exists, just because the source file is now newer. No good. So right now the only option that I have is to avoid both --no-clover and --update all together, and to test for the file existence separately. So totally useless. On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 01:29, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 2023-03-31 14:32, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > > > Perhaps we should support: > > --no-clobber[=3D{skip, fail (default)}] > > > > so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=3Dskip > > to get the old behavior? > > > > An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support: > > --update[=3D{none, older (default)}] > > where --update=3Dnone would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior. > > The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We could > generalize it a bit further, e.g.: > > --skip-diagnose[=3D{yes,no}] > Whether to diagnose a copying action being skipped. > --skip-fail[=3D{yes,no}] > Whether exit status should be 1 when skipping a copying action. > > Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv. > > All these extra options might be overkill, though. > > > > Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case, > > to make it easier for users to see what the issue is. > > FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed, so > it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie. > --000000000000a9fe5305f83c5cfb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I get the impression that right now --no-clover is op= timized for the less common scenarios, while making it less useful for the = common ones.

Also --update isn't a substitute = of --no-clover. As --no-clover is for copying when the file is missing, not= when it isn't updated.

For example imagine th= at I have a config template, and a script copies the template only if it is= missing using --no-clover.

If I did the same with= --update it could happen the following: the package that provides the temp= late updates, then --update will override the config even if it exists, jus= t because the source file is now newer. No good.

S= o right now the only option that I have is to avoid both --no-clover and --= update all together, and to test for the file existence separately. So tota= lly useless.

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 01:29, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 2023-03-31 14:32, P=C3= =A1draig Brady wrote:

> Perhaps we should support:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --no-clobber[=3D{skip, fail (default)}]
>
> so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=3Dskip
> to get the old behavior?
>
> An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --update[=3D{none, older (default)}]
> where --update=3Dnone would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior.<= br>
The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We could generalize it a bit further, e.g.:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0--skip-diagnose[=3D{yes,no}]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Whether to diagnose a copying action being skipped. =C2=A0 =C2=A0--skip-fail[=3D{yes,no}]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Whether exit status should be 1 when skipping a copyin= g action.

Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv.

All these extra options might be overkill, though.


> Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case,
> to make it easier for users to see what the issue is.

FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed, so <= br> it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie.
--000000000000a9fe5305f83c5cfb-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 31 21:41:30 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Apr 2023 01:41:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34920 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piQFG-0008Qs-2a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 21:41:30 -0400 Received: from mail-yw1-f174.google.com ([209.85.128.174]:34815) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piQFD-0008Qf-OQ for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 21:41:28 -0400 Received: by mail-yw1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5463fa0c2bfso117277947b3.1 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 18:41:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680313282; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=zhLpvQ7zPyygghQVTaX0PjMzwNuO8RviyBjMWcmsAAI=; b=HS642IkofiyeDXgMqXSsacvamT/iDM/RpfcCRvFhFGJkpxeBTNVxNk8FqG3g3jOpF3 inIIfw783CbG+MJw73nLkZ47jageg6kYNppoQihMeB0jw0zNpRhBccH6nNZR5pvk4TGd sazCYjyioz6pyq3pbsQWt/r2lmSTOvdOYYXeQuc+zlc0gitBkM/D3P1fM/kX/Ugk6Aw4 wAsv4nb1I1Oi/KDY4U0QiPBNRe08yQUCWfW8iI0W93giEXmzSjTqdQzx8pSnDhAXlTaQ gThSXjrj5TXXhMrtNMrcWcCTtFAO/mlkf9E2UmsmRHh/0hX1gXYu9g/5/R4knTLOFNR1 DE9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680313282; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=zhLpvQ7zPyygghQVTaX0PjMzwNuO8RviyBjMWcmsAAI=; b=i0aqJC6jJ8QdVr7Io8C6cpipfzRvwMGmpnqL5hNRFlwVu3dmHO3A7P5wayI2J4IfLF v8tj+jvVyIJgNc5BYufhBXz64EDXgK0qkGRnfqA9ZHJqvtjDIHD7Umvo1YhEslaWxVu4 vjL4R1Ds/xZwcRG2sGmNqik9YZMDCkr8KiRANXlNOgs0D39xS9/S+ykKgrW8pnPn1yjd MjyssLUsIk1fnWaDuIUD35wzR9uelNJGlcXIkWdnEGl9RveURj043hqDQx14WXBJRpP4 RO97kZYRMs3KXsA0Sz2KEDDJw9AsSv3154bnrOwq54lqESiwgIovWnWKSQoBY/7+2PvO AcSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eMmWdNcOs/PGXbkGE6aZbWOrdRYV2nijwSpbr/1YC1ipICGnZ8 FbO4Os+tsEF5f5ZjeT4kKCNR9IJaW7t1RHI8jgk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YPbGJDoLpGHb6eBh4fT7B4b1zFW50pP9KHKtUsHV7AP7nv/554Z1v05Ej8Mg16gT5JPmwWpeVZiHqpTXx4M2Q= X-Received: by 2002:a81:4426:0:b0:53d:2772:65d with SMTP id r38-20020a814426000000b0053d2772065dmr14642252ywa.9.1680313282146; Fri, 31 Mar 2023 18:41:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Alberto Salvia Novella Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 03:41:10 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004b37fe05f83c6cff" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , Sven Joachim , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000004b37fe05f83c6cff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or use: cp --no-clover $in $out || true But again, surprising behavior. Just a new special case to memorize. On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 03:36, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > I get the impression that right now --no-clover is optimized for the less > common scenarios, while making it less useful for the common ones. > > Also --update isn't a substitute of --no-clover. As --no-clover is for > copying when the file is missing, not when it isn't updated. > > For example imagine that I have a config template, and a script copies th= e > template only if it is missing using --no-clover. > > If I did the same with --update it could happen the following: the packag= e > that provides the template updates, then --update will override the confi= g > even if it exists, just because the source file is now newer. No good. > > So right now the only option that I have is to avoid both --no-clover and > --update all together, and to test for the file existence separately. So > totally useless. > > On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 01:29, Paul Eggert wrote: > >> On 2023-03-31 14:32, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: >> >> > Perhaps we should support: >> > --no-clobber[=3D{skip, fail (default)}] >> > >> > so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=3Dskip >> > to get the old behavior? >> > >> > An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support: >> > --update[=3D{none, older (default)}] >> > where --update=3Dnone would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior. >> >> The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We could >> generalize it a bit further, e.g.: >> >> --skip-diagnose[=3D{yes,no}] >> Whether to diagnose a copying action being skipped. >> --skip-fail[=3D{yes,no}] >> Whether exit status should be 1 when skipping a copying action. >> >> Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv. >> >> All these extra options might be overkill, though. >> >> >> > Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case, >> > to make it easier for users to see what the issue is. >> >> FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed, so >> it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie. >> > --0000000000004b37fe05f83c6cff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Or use:
cp --no-clover $in= $out || true

But again, surprising behavior. Just= a new special case to memorize.

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 03:36, Albe= rto Salvia Novella <es20490446e= @gmail.com> wrote:
I get the impression that right now --no-c= lover is optimized for the less common scenarios, while making it less usef= ul for the common ones.

Also --update isn't a = substitute of --no-clover. As --no-clover is for copying when the file is m= issing, not when it isn't updated.

For example= imagine that I have a config template, and a script copies the template on= ly if it is missing using --no-clover.

If I did th= e same with --update it could happen the following: the package that provid= es the template updates, then --update will override the config even if it = exists, just because the source file is now newer. No good.

<= /div>
So right now the only option that I have is to avoid both --no-cl= over and --update all together, and to test for the file existence separate= ly. So totally useless.

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 01:29, Paul Eggert &= lt;eggert@cs.ucla.e= du> wrote:
, Sven Joachim , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000005f58cf05f8476699 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also there's now a bigger problem: that you cannot tell when the copy failed because the file exists, or because any other reason. People will just use: cp --no-clover $in $out || true But if it fails for any other reason, cross your fingers. Hence now the option, in practice, is useless. Nobody should be using it. On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 03:41, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > Or use: > cp --no-clover $in $out || true > > But again, surprising behavior. Just a new special case to memorize. > > On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 03:36, Alberto Salvia Novella > wrote: > >> I get the impression that right now --no-clover is optimized for the les= s >> common scenarios, while making it less useful for the common ones. >> >> Also --update isn't a substitute of --no-clover. As --no-clover is for >> copying when the file is missing, not when it isn't updated. >> >> For example imagine that I have a config template, and a script copies >> the template only if it is missing using --no-clover. >> >> If I did the same with --update it could happen the following: the >> package that provides the template updates, then --update will override = the >> config even if it exists, just because the source file is now newer. No >> good. >> >> So right now the only option that I have is to avoid both --no-clover an= d >> --update all together, and to test for the file existence separately. So >> totally useless. >> >> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 01:29, Paul Eggert wrote: >> >>> On 2023-03-31 14:32, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: >>> >>> > Perhaps we should support: >>> > --no-clobber[=3D{skip, fail (default)}] >>> > >>> > so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=3Dskip >>> > to get the old behavior? >>> > >>> > An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support: >>> > --update[=3D{none, older (default)}] >>> > where --update=3Dnone would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior. >>> >>> The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We coul= d >>> generalize it a bit further, e.g.: >>> >>> --skip-diagnose[=3D{yes,no}] >>> Whether to diagnose a copying action being skipped. >>> --skip-fail[=3D{yes,no}] >>> Whether exit status should be 1 when skipping a copying action. >>> >>> Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv. >>> >>> All these extra options might be overkill, though. >>> >>> >>> > Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case, >>> > to make it easier for users to see what the issue is. >>> >>> FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed, so >>> it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie. >>> >> --0000000000005f58cf05f8476699 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also there's now a bigger problem: that you canno= t tell when the copy failed because the file exists, or because any other r= eason.

People will just use:
cp --no-clo= ver $in $out || true

But if it fails for any other= reason, cross your fingers.

Hence now the option,= in practice, is useless. Nobody should be using it.

On Sat, 1= Apr 2023 at 03:41, Alberto Salvia Novella <es20490446e@gmail.com> wrote:
Or= use:
cp --no-clover $in $out || true

Bu= t again, surprising behavior. Just a new special case to memorize.

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 03:36, Alberto Salvia Novella <es20490446e@gmail.com> wrot= e:
I get the impression that right now --no-clover is optimized for t= he less common scenarios, while making it less useful for the common ones.<= /div>

Also --update isn't a substitute of --no-clove= r. As --no-clover is for copying when the file is missing, not when it isn&= #39;t updated.

For example imagine that I have a c= onfig template, and a script copies the template only if it is missing usin= g --no-clover.

If I did the same with --update it = could happen the following: the package that provides the template updates,= then --update will override the config even if it exists, just because the= source file is now newer. No good.

So right now t= he only option that I have is to avoid both --no-clover and --update all to= gether, and to test for the file existence separately. So totally useless.<= br>

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 01:29, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 2023-03-31 14:32, P= =C3=A1draig Brady wrote:

> Perhaps we should support:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --no-clobber[=3D{skip, fail (default)}]
>
> so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=3Dskip
> to get the old behavior?
>
> An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --update[=3D{none, older (default)}]
> where --update=3Dnone would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior.<= br>
The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We could generalize it a bit further, e.g.:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0--skip-diagnose[=3D{yes,no}]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Whether to diagnose a copying action being skipped. =C2=A0 =C2=A0--skip-fail[=3D{yes,no}]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Whether exit status should be 1 when skipping a copyin= g action.

Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv.

All these extra options might be overkill, though.


> Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case,
> to make it easier for users to see what the issue is.

FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed, so <= br> it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie.
--0000000000005f58cf05f8476699-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 01 11:43:34 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Apr 2023 15:43:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38409 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pidOA-00061y-IU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:43:34 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f54.google.com ([209.85.221.54]:37503) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pidO6-00061j-Uz for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:43:32 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f54.google.com with SMTP id y14so25261411wrq.4 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 08:43:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680363805; x=1682955805; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DQhcpyg5jPuNnSjPw3WREn2cjz1ZyPSpIR1BWVwgIAU=; b=f2+Vv2JdwZG6xPtTBJTBQN5xLk/EMXmtdKqZhyUCTji3JvggtJNY4aPWQ6syp/ajRB isFrnRZFMQkcwugRiZMSp/NXxgehcVuDqffnjeS9fpEHecwAoZAzlJVZjZxnkeCAObML Qo82DIMz7XIqs46SBA3gM4FndtZNBNsNtsjWi8x4KCsjeAXjDwhGROJipMb/rLE5Rzey 2VSi7WX4NQaIfhRpkKj8WwrIyPm8qB3qDPMCk8FWZDnGtR9DTOwQ2pH7KC3dMdUG3ZsV C+MvmZTexjS7Bi8rdQWIYDVUHBDkU7TnEtWpj9x83Yrw9z8GSZIbrDnJvIX/CLrgLR+m 6KqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680363805; x=1682955805; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=DQhcpyg5jPuNnSjPw3WREn2cjz1ZyPSpIR1BWVwgIAU=; b=CU1KYpwhVk+EIsOMIGML8b2NB/jXORtwMyhqu+MGkv2WYhDYArGRKFUeXWJEthO8Z8 Oyi776Pdc1v55tdXuKUeLGJWZkm/iy+ClAVYF3WvPi++fGxCVuOZGLpvgAeF+ZNpgHAu euGnVcRkTvYcHMkPYxDOkcfkA5iYhK5T06xGBukTXV3kI45c8o+OU9Kz9eZWsuKGCfxf Vm/cuPVr9RGAPvUsKxx5mCzdZ+xqR9BR0k06t8Ry1DPjDwWRu2LVIdO/PNLa8sc20q9P hFsBFqd3J8zaLXNjQB5UDwyEO2skZEAaCU4yMX29a3oT+s0sxA+DoyXfLuuH1eQV7TGj TXig== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fcAyJSQHodSMoCIGzIXgFalxQFp71EnIeCMNeIqEjOD6FQH2wz nwjTKiVreGgk43iHERWQaYQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZVVQPXAlcRXlsrmhPqXeDOJFx0gNIXI/n6thE1FtD6CulAN/TtDHKRHZOsWjy2oKcKwomMkQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:d4c8:0:b0:2d4:d4ef:265c with SMTP id w8-20020adfd4c8000000b002d4d4ef265cmr23969266wrk.45.1680363805017; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 08:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (95-44-90-175-dynamic.agg2.lod.rsl-rtd.eircom.net. [95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z15-20020adfec8f000000b002cf1c435afcsm5174233wrn.11.2023.04.01.08.43.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Apr 2023 08:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 16:43:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/109.0 Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Alberto Salvia Novella , Paul Eggert References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Sven Joachim , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) On 01/04/2023 15:46, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > Also there's now a bigger problem: that you cannot tell when the copy > failed because the file exists, or because any other reason. > > People will just use: > cp --no-clover $in $out || true > > But if it fails for any other reason, cross your fingers. > > Hence now the option, in practice, is useless. Nobody should be using it. Well the current thinking is -n is useful to fail with unexpected existing files. For the functionality you want of only updating non existent files, one should use the proposed --update=none new option. It's worth mentioning that this being a new option impacts the portability of scripts that use it. cheers, Pádraig From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 01 11:44:47 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Apr 2023 15:44:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38413 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pidPK-000645-Tn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:44:47 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f54.google.com ([209.85.221.54]:45780) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pidPI-00063s-JD for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:44:45 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f54.google.com with SMTP id r11so25227507wrr.12 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 08:44:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680363879; x=1682955879; h=in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:sender:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/epVHPTftd8xCSTQYKKhGi29qSmywfyi8I3+AcGkU+w=; b=cig3VL8X6zLZjGIUSZlYKTNfbaYoorL6S0pMgdktfJMVs4V69F/H2TDHDRBGWMo3eA qm0wQWtlH8zadkPogaGNs64VestQKregUSYHR3m5c0X6gLGgMqXIrmLs2Rg7lP4EFizt ZZpU6zHbmbwhKLdChxXRKUruaohgd6QlQLMfhozNf+vkHTXiO/lh1kKsPnW4iWcyrd4Z 88BbiFO4/qZZk92DfXQ66yE8nCxZepmgM5eo8Gm1yrVuUY6DC/NA9Xg1am5xnFksXY5m Xj7B9TUpBgTJuf/oUvscZAUogU1DcMHFlxVGw5SAoz85XdnOnbi7YtBwUVJSN5LNKcDh icfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680363879; x=1682955879; h=in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:sender:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/epVHPTftd8xCSTQYKKhGi29qSmywfyi8I3+AcGkU+w=; b=3R8qgMQTUtHAJCiYRQWTKZDWAuF+tS5ph536MgWIQi8Fb29X/S4TVmO0QvSaZxd9t6 Uj1WGvNnavvmzfgdjJNi7NwmfKv/V8qwTCV/fOUs1xt8FsoTtqbWnRbfuoGGcmaQdurv j/6H7a+5sSUDPmufrA2By9Zqg8zUq7WvvUkdGWEvnkeRT627mYeaYg97SeJJ7PqLrv/b aILbfLtx9MawYVBlgncnuEy73FaPaitCMQI4mwhbDliO9uRkGIuXFUS3Uer+3CLU1QNi h4E/FGjY4XT/jsIfoRHm5h+i2DrfrpZg2MArMZ730WJrjYHFjZ+XeIBXNWU7/WermoxS O2NA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eAQWnN1MCccFB+BcoSvFgjMbUbfYLSKTFvnKJRg3ylgbHL0EQ7 geRmMXc9Bpj9X2/lEi+8aKA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350aDEZBaFTjTW+osvQp3QazvIHDANT1xGm56GJK51w9/Pf14SAqtukgNjKccLaDUT+ftoW6iAw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:ce01:0:b0:2e2:730a:c7dc with SMTP id p1-20020adfce01000000b002e2730ac7dcmr12514421wrn.25.1680363878839; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 08:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (95-44-90-175-dynamic.agg2.lod.rsl-rtd.eircom.net. [95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z15-20020adfec8f000000b002cf1c435afcsm5174233wrn.11.2023.04.01.08.44.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Apr 2023 08:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------yPqQDaddEV0MEPeCfrdxNBNq" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 16:44:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/109.0 Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Paul Eggert , Sven Joachim References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Alberto Salvia Novella , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------yPqQDaddEV0MEPeCfrdxNBNq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 01/04/2023 00:29, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 2023-03-31 14:32, Pádraig Brady wrote: > >> Perhaps we should support: >>   --no-clobber[={skip, fail (default)}] >> >> so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=skip >> to get the old behavior? >> >> An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support: >>   --update[={none, older (default)}] >> where --update=none would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior. > > The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We could > generalize it a bit further, e.g.: > > --skip-diagnose[={yes,no}] > Whether to diagnose a copying action being skipped. > --skip-fail[={yes,no}] > Whether exit status should be 1 when skipping a copying action. > > Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv. > > All these extra options might be overkill, though. > > >> Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case, >> to make it easier for users to see what the issue is. > > FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed, so > it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie. OK first stab at --update=none support is attached. cheers, Pádraig --------------yPqQDaddEV0MEPeCfrdxNBNq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="copy--update-none-patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="copy--update-none-patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSAxZDA2MTcyNThiNGU5NjA1ZTM0ODY3OWRmMzYxMGMzNTZjODM3N2IwIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiA9P1VURi04P3E/UD1DMz1BMWRyYWlnPTIwQnJhZHk/ PSA8UEBkcmFpZ0JyYWR5LmNvbT4KRGF0ZTogU2F0LCAxIEFwciAyMDIzIDE2OjI3OjUyICsw MTAwClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRDSF0gY3AsbXY6IGFkZCAtLXVwZGF0ZT1ub25lIHRvIGFsd2F5 cyBza2lwIGV4aXN0aW5nIGZpbGVzCgpBZGQgLS11cGRhdGU9bm9uZSB3aGljaCBpcyBlcXVp dmFsZW50IHRvIHRoZSAtLW5vLWNsb2JiZXIgYmVoYXZpb3IKZnJvbSBiZWZvcmUgY29yZXV0 aWxzIDkuMi4gIEkuZS4gZXhpc3RpbmcgZmlsZXMgYXJlIHVuY29uZGl0aW9uYWxseQpza2lw cGVkLCBhbmQgdGhlbSBub3QgYmVpbmcgY29waWVkIGRvZXMgbm90IGFmZmVjdCB0aGUgZXhp dCBzdGF0dXMuCgoqIHNyYy9jb3B5LmggW2VudW0gVXBkYXRlX3R5cGVdOiBBIG5ldyB0eXBl 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debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Apr 2023 18:14:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38593 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pifkB-0002FL-5p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 14:14:27 -0400 Received: from mail-yw1-f171.google.com ([209.85.128.171]:44832) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pifk9-0002F7-DB for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 14:14:26 -0400 Received: by mail-yw1-f171.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5419d4c340aso475798857b3.11 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:14:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680372859; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=LopcLY/XidvCrloiZZNcMUteJGqfQvqtTuw+f1+gXis=; b=OGk22r3XuC8zQAQkWLJZOQsagmHOBAWe3g2e4DBzbeliW9kGPYFo1GMQ9fkc/+By6U 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AAQBX9e/Snor2dJhYEsbrlPOwWTUPFbpUvKMNIwK0Rc6Aq2mnlZB2dp1 Hzq9+dSI9vBMUyLT+8az3OTkVSAQIEVDhQb2mmA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZO7FswJXG4G64hotePvOnIeVs3rtqoQzhcY04O/7NUuZRC4J4VP10L4faaA3UXWFi+hyDabGpkLs/57It4W2o= X-Received: by 2002:a81:b647:0:b0:534:d71f:14e6 with SMTP id h7-20020a81b647000000b00534d71f14e6mr14742692ywk.9.1680372859484; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:14:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Alberto Salvia Novella Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 20:14:07 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000613f5005f84a4be8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Paul Eggert , Sven Joachim , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000613f5005f84a4be8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe simpler: -m --missing Only copy non existing files. On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 17:44, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > On 01/04/2023 00:29, Paul Eggert wrote: > > On 2023-03-31 14:32, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > > > >> Perhaps we should support: > >> --no-clobber[=3D{skip, fail (default)}] > >> > >> so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=3Dskip > >> to get the old behavior? > >> > >> An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support: > >> --update[=3D{none, older (default)}] > >> where --update=3Dnone would be the equivalent of the old -n behavior. > > > > The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We coul= d > > generalize it a bit further, e.g.: > > > > --skip-diagnose[=3D{yes,no}] > > Whether to diagnose a copying action being skipped. > > --skip-fail[=3D{yes,no}] > > Whether exit status should be 1 when skipping a copying action. > > > > Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv. > > > > All these extra options might be overkill, though. > > > > > >> Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case, > >> to make it easier for users to see what the issue is. > > > > FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed, so > > it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie. > > OK first stab at --update=3Dnone support is attached. > > cheers, > P=C3=A1draig > --000000000000613f5005f84a4be8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maybe simpler:

-m --missing<= /div>
Only copy non existing files.

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 at 17:4= 4, P=C3=A1draig Brady <P@draigbrady.= com> wrote:
On 01/04/2023 00:29, Paul Eggert wrote:
> On 2023-03-31 14:32, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote:
>
>> Perhaps we should support:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 --no-clobber[=3D{skip, fail (default)}]
>>
>> so then users can at least easily change -n to --no-clobber=3Dskip=
>> to get the old behavior?
>>
>> An alternative would be to augment the --update option to support:=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 --update[=3D{none, older (default)}]
>> where --update=3Dnone would be the equivalent of the old -n behavi= or.
>
> The latter sounds a bit better but I suppose either would work. We cou= ld
> generalize it a bit further, e.g.:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--skip-diagnose[=3D{yes,no}]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Whether to diagnose a copying action being = skipped.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--skip-fail[=3D{yes,no}]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Whether exit status should be 1 when skippi= ng a copying action.
>
> Presumably similar options would apply to ln and mv.
>
> All these extra options might be overkill, though.
>
>
>> Perhaps we should also diagnose files skipped in the -n fail case,=
>> to make it easier for users to see what the issue is.
>
> FreeBSD cp -n doesn't diagnose, and GNU cp -n has never diagnosed,= so
> it's probably better to leave sleeping dogs lie.

OK first stab at --update=3Dnone support is attached.

cheers,
P=C3=A1draig
--000000000000613f5005f84a4be8-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 01 18:45:03 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Apr 2023 22:45:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38690 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pijy2-0003n6-KX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 18:45:03 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:44792) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pijy0-0003mT-DU for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 18:45:01 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B00A3C09FA02; Sat, 1 Apr 2023 15:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id kllVQtrRW3he; Sat, 1 Apr 2023 15:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6533C09FA05; Sat, 1 Apr 2023 15:44:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu CC6533C09FA05 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1680389093; bh=mwx+P9FJecOfFWqJYn2e2cXCh25EnMNTU09zFfVK990=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=AWqPRMB7uS8B/6XZ8QowN9g5jttV1wlNozhKE/CT+ZF4OkX5d2UTBo+t+k/wZ7VeX tHb9Wp8hgLrWacSx9dKcGKhZqr54+Ieyk3XXNNUz7nfcCluwVnz1VATbkuPBOozZ0l e2hqdRAP7KhJ9lJjDRbnf7ftIxO0/11RqpBtLoJ96lwjsrFHVpz00AqZ96s2OXlxrZ O3+14I62lgbUMWEydO7pdl343GXUSAJ8RruYV1UAfhG2U7hYSkWNbc1Ilc6Fk75f0i KQRSlFOb06Souz6mBwzKN8UENM7de/QJQhL+aXZGBxoOxeIX/UvXzoAxG4Nope33h0 puqxmVIp2sG7g== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id IhujA2-UWLWM; Sat, 1 Apr 2023 15:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A69763C09FA02; Sat, 1 Apr 2023 15:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8450ada9-f787-1131-6ac9-34278032e540@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 15:44:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=c3=a1draig_Brady?= , Sven Joachim References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Alberto Salvia Novella , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On 2023-04-01 08:44, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > OK first stab at --update=3Dnone support is attached. Thanks, some comments: > + /* Always Overwrite. */ > + UPDATE_OVERWRITE, Might be better to call this UPDATE_ALL as it doesn't overwrite if you=20 use cp -l or -s or (in some cases) --preserve=3Dlinks. > +static char const *const update_type_string[] =3D > +{ > + "none", "older", NULL > +}; Perhaps there should also be an --update=3Dall, which is the same as no=20 update option at all? It would presumably override previous --update=20 suboptions. > -n, --no-clobber do not overwrite an existing file (over= rides\n\ > - a previous -i option)\n\ > + a -u or previous -i option)\n\ Shouldn't -n override only previous -u or --update options? I thought=20 these options were processed left to right, with later overriding earlier= . > + -u only update when the SOURCE file is new= er\n\ > than the destination file or when the= \n\ > destination file is missing\n\ > + --update[=3DUPDATE_MODE] like -u, but support skipping existin= g files;\n\ > + UPDATE_MODE=3D{none,older(default)}\n= \ This might be clearer if we describe --update first, and then say that=20 -u is equivalent to plain --update. > + if (make_backups && x.interactive =3D=3D I_ALWAYS_SKIP) > + { > + error (0, 0, > + _("options --backup and --update=3Dnone are mutually excl= usive")); > + usage (EXIT_FAILURE); > + } Why is this needed? --backup and -u are not mutually exclusive now.=20 Admittedly --backup is useless when -u is given, but it seems a bit=20 harsh to error out. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 02 06:10:28 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Apr 2023 10:10:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39248 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piufM-0000ot-4I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 Apr 2023 06:10:28 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f50.google.com ([209.85.221.50]:44758) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piufK-0000oe-G2 for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 Apr 2023 06:10:26 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f50.google.com with SMTP id d17so26461255wrb.11 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 02 Apr 2023 03:10:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680430220; x=1683022220; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OqMCEKXEgiNbz7CBvwuhDSY593hrJZqh/VNULQcYuYo=; b=Q54GSV3kIbLMA/jdgtoLjlPVAwMM5UHTvi5VXR69iAhEmkjl72lZgkZistJTnpHhQj SJnd4NKl7d2YZp544ZNyUgvLS2SZNx4mzh2jqcPGlN9nNQSNtjaPsc4kx24iYRL/IW2n j4erQ2jCP8YoIusJZtiwgQR50qvwgP49DLQwz67wpzOLyFs//eMFlUJnbHfet1/ZOGsY kFl3j9QhOIpCd9uxczekV6og2yyoFu2t7lbwDUyEAx33SUg+A/DnWKSzT14WGCQzSwzR 20sY+oXlbRnW8S+GcOYErKeS03ctjMJAC0M39dT2qQ7tM2tm88Oy6ZinLHfbV+QdIquV N6Bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680430220; x=1683022220; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=OqMCEKXEgiNbz7CBvwuhDSY593hrJZqh/VNULQcYuYo=; b=NFALPJARsxNkqrMAIErpYaI8S3dhqPzrdV1CRB/uzPRD/ov9JtaRFMRbb3cjUUyaPb ydB14M8huaNFZ9s1v5c7Hj7JwYWByKk0o770PZGsabyZtfWVmvw1hFvnWIq4G0RaxS4Z 0UXSoRh1nffLmvj8JoCQV18HElj2TSESjRj7HKHKXhKux8OzEdN80hqJgbCMInVmjf/Q bqBJ1zuiyfh729uPNz4+qBuukM1LOH8EUTaNN0gu3Fmy2Z+TRe9rwCr2ZEYhSCFshYID CP2KkvgxClDHeCUMQhcATtab/pFWIXp8G+D+l+JCqdFYgfik6qKWclsyS4kLWMOQK0J+ QTdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dE1HFP15BJ8idcevRh0LxADK905f6B7WFOtWeEEKYz48AKnljT jLKQ6LcmAUNJkLjdZhFIm8E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350auD2N3Go9J4Vr1W3LtFtrA+nVMApq4MUJvt1QA2+9U4yC1gxbZDk8VPvqNSs7lcxulAhyqRA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:ee41:0:b0:2cf:e3d8:5dff with SMTP id w1-20020adfee41000000b002cfe3d85dffmr23175768wro.9.1680430220477; Sun, 02 Apr 2023 03:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (95-44-90-175-dynamic.agg2.lod.rsl-rtd.eircom.net. [95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r1-20020a5d4941000000b002cfefa50a8esm6937503wrs.98.2023.04.02.03.10.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 02 Apr 2023 03:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4be12628-6a34-7b37-b3a3-561ec0231f69@draigBrady.com> Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2023 11:10:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/109.0 Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Paul Eggert , Sven Joachim References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> <8450ada9-f787-1131-6ac9-34278032e540@cs.ucla.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: <8450ada9-f787-1131-6ac9-34278032e540@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Alberto Salvia Novella , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) On 01/04/2023 23:44, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 2023-04-01 08:44, Pádraig Brady wrote: > >> OK first stab at --update=none support is attached. > > Thanks, some comments: > > >> + /* Always Overwrite. */ >> + UPDATE_OVERWRITE, > > Might be better to call this UPDATE_ALL as it doesn't overwrite if you > use cp -l or -s or (in some cases) --preserve=links. +1 >> +static char const *const update_type_string[] = >> +{ >> + "none", "older", NULL >> +}; > > Perhaps there should also be an --update=all, which is the same as no > update option at all? It would presumably override previous --update > suboptions. +1 >> -n, --no-clobber do not overwrite an existing file (overrides\n\ >> - a previous -i option)\n\ >> + a -u or previous -i option)\n\ > > Shouldn't -n override only previous -u or --update options? I thought > these options were processed left to right, with later overriding earlier. Well I was just keeping the existing global treatment of -n wrt -u, as per: https://github.com/coreutils/coreutils/commit/7e244891b -n does seem like more of a global "make sure you don't overwrite anything" setting (which is analogous to the shell "noclobber" option BTW which also induces a failure when triggered). I'll think a bit more about this. >> + -u only update when the SOURCE file is newer\n\ >> than the destination file or when the\n\ >> destination file is missing\n\ >> + --update[=UPDATE_MODE] like -u, but support skipping existing files;\n\ >> + UPDATE_MODE={none,older(default)}\n\ > > This might be clearer if we describe --update first, and then say that > -u is equivalent to plain --update. +1 >> + if (make_backups && x.interactive == I_ALWAYS_SKIP) >> + { >> + error (0, 0, >> + _("options --backup and --update=none are mutually exclusive")); >> + usage (EXIT_FAILURE); >> + } > > Why is this needed? --backup and -u are not mutually exclusive now. > Admittedly --backup is useless when -u is given, but it seems a bit > harsh to error out. Yes --backup is redundant with -n or --update=none. We already disallowed --backup with -n, so I was just being consistent with disallowing --backup with --update=none. I'll remove this new restriction. thanks for the review, Pádraig From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 06 10:50:20 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Apr 2023 14:50:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54691 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pkQwN-0004Ue-1r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Apr 2023 10:50:20 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f53.google.com ([209.85.128.53]:39659) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pkQwK-0004UQ-TQ for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Apr 2023 10:50:18 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f53.google.com with SMTP id i5-20020a05600c354500b003edd24054e0so25673492wmq.4 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 06 Apr 2023 07:50:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680792611; x=1683384611; h=in-reply-to:references:cc:to:from:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:sender:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cYJ/QklACM6XjRPuZ1UKAsIOjrG7FL4m917qp3F5kv4=; b=mPhWKJ2BlfdLfbMOEMnYxIyHf7alImk3OysLMiu9TSYa9RaJIHtJdrvRCly7WhpEIP mAQrcrBsKrSx2cYohNfvQ3pgo1p7EHawhsfVtCEuaGIEyhKaI0oqlbUr4dfijOsG3fir jVjgSiOmfdwVRMlFicyMTRvJX8xLuuxWm06Y713mT37j0lqLNZ+IdCSmEjPweEtiLW7w uBeSS/5Bfh7Lhu4K9Id4Oc3LQJCZLb6/JIPnV/asALcRModcF81/kVnlKW1XxMjGI9oq mPYrCDm8nGI901CIndyBL3Bhhmg5vWzK/MdgT+1oyEUpYpBqwMfWbLyMD3t9Iqa4wGTs VgDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680792611; x=1683384611; h=in-reply-to:references:cc:to:from:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:sender:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cYJ/QklACM6XjRPuZ1UKAsIOjrG7FL4m917qp3F5kv4=; b=cbP1fXho022Xgr+ZE7g8P/17/IesISDlAff7ntczpB606vbFvvyNYaNCvbECsql+VL XSeVci8nNUhqQ2QkQ+IwwBDW8KLAJ5+mvSRh9AH2St73NB7U+Gav+pseZ7e/Uxhuxk/A 1qJeZ7oousMZGWFz7fh83REasLL6HiNl1V8oAr9SfCMEYJ77wo7odr459OyBmEovPIPE ibgW5yn+FiFJkHuibWv2j/m2we/9OUmEA+Jxqwv8YAkbgPsH4+Ukj5PuMepRmabqrGvR ou+zXyKTl0v+69FGmo6cMlQvfi4PKuKRFV7YnwhaKBa4bPf+s3SndTqnvxndBVVFV71K Vj3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fQaEnBWWgZP7FUUFWH6GWeAX1vpOc12vRXRODPft5h2u599yLD TnR7GAoMH8Ik2+ezi995QcA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bFxT3m5IML163Br4ENVJLtnlyl6e0VGpShste+gxNF6p0xT8Cg4jLEz+/QxU1M8wUDK3e4GQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2052:b0:3dc:4fd7:31e9 with SMTP id p18-20020a05600c205200b003dc4fd731e9mr7820643wmg.7.1680792610526; Thu, 06 Apr 2023 07:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (95-44-90-175-dynamic.agg2.lod.rsl-rtd.eircom.net. [95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id l25-20020a05600c1d1900b003f063a709dbsm5996248wms.2.2023.04.06.07.50.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Apr 2023 07:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------G1AAeHVJgVOnsb1iWnc0pf40" Message-ID: <59bf1258-b941-1dda-7786-ec45a567bd81@draigBrady.com> Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2023 15:50:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/109.0 Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= To: Paul Eggert , Sven Joachim References: <0cab4887-df33-0404-9a1b-9a84c87b7087@cs.ucla.edu> <87jzyw3bdl.fsf@turtle.gmx.de> <8450ada9-f787-1131-6ac9-34278032e540@cs.ucla.edu> <4be12628-6a34-7b37-b3a3-561ec0231f69@draigBrady.com> In-Reply-To: <4be12628-6a34-7b37-b3a3-561ec0231f69@draigBrady.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Alberto 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cHkuCi1jcCAtLXVwZGF0ZSBuZXcgb2xkIHx8IGZhaWw9MQotY2FzZSAiJChjYXQgb2xkKSIg aW4gbmV3KSA7OyAqKSBmYWlsPTEgOzsgZXNhYwotY2FzZSAiJChjYXQgbmV3KSIgaW4gbmV3 KSA7OyAqKSBmYWlsPTEgOzsgZXNhYworICB0ZXN0X3Jlc2V0CisgIGNwICR1cGRhdGVfb3B0 aW9uIG5ldyBvbGQgfHwgZmFpbD0xCisgIGNhc2UgIiQoY2F0IG5ldykiIGluIG5ldykgOzsg KikgZmFpbD0xIDs7IGVzYWMKKyAgY2FzZSAiJChjYXQgb2xkKSIgaW4gb2xkKSA7OyAqKSBm YWlsPTEgOzsgZXNhYworZG9uZQogCiBFeGl0ICRmYWlsCi0tIAoyLjI2LjIKCg== --------------G1AAeHVJgVOnsb1iWnc0pf40-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 11 20:08:01 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2023 01:08:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54685 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1yxF-0005Xo-Es for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 20:08:01 -0500 Received: from herc.mirbsd.org ([2001:470:1f15:10c:202:b3ff:feb7:54e8]:7906 ident=root) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1yxC-0005XV-P0 for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 20:08:00 -0500 Received: from herc.mirbsd.org (tg@herc.mirbsd.org [192.168.0.82]) by herc.mirbsd.org (8.14.9/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 3AC13HYl025402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:03:24 GMT Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:03:17 +0000 (UTC) From: Thorsten Glaser X-X-Sender: tg@herc.mirbsd.org To: 62572@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Make the errorlevel distinct perhaps? Message-ID: Content-Language: de-DE-1901, en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, from https://bugs.debian.org/1055694 where this broke things where files were deliberately not overwritten (klibc installs its utils but only those busybox (when used) does not provide). In this case not copying the file is absolutely not an error. Perhaps do it like diff(1) and use distinct errorlevels for some files were not copied in -n mode vs. there was an error in those that *were* copied. Then document that in the manpage as extension and reach out to FreeBSD to follow. bye, //mirabilos -- (gnutls can also be used, but if you are compiling lynx for your own use, there is no reason to consider using that package) -- Thomas E. Dickey on the Lynx mailing list, about OpenSSL From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 15 10:56:15 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2023 15:56:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53385 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEAXv-00088p-1a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:56:15 -0500 Received: from stravinsky.debian.org ([2001:41b8:202:deb::311:108]:54012) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEAXt-00088f-5E for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:56:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debian.org; s=smtpauto.stravinsky; h=X-Debian-User:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:In-Reply-To:References; bh=ZvgYtz+ybf/P2AHrCoA1RnKj2/SVswrROIXirQTErzw=; b=NLhwwNKm2/nT16yGC91kUvHVHI sRgZbJTRzZ6sfj3cykFBbhuJzUwhxVHXDOgzLN0XCqvFSEBNU5vMTG7LWdBrCDvA5tZNBW6QxrSL1 9jmnQx4rM+EIAjvNbYYYw2PaVO8Ltp+i+9VqImqXRXbeJk0nVsinI1ZGB++I/x+awRA1ickRVqrrY PGT7k7qSDLi6ExIjKTlDi3lQxJ54FB/SoQAsMtOSPhQz+YkYiFWtgp0s6nPRpfZM+BPvI1jGfAC2V 5NcAarjXicNqh/s8EXeb9GYvHjC3tStD6ve0CSsyFyAF/GBtPPdROeMX4R8jtvuON/J6RTEyE53yf kci5fS/Q==; Received: from authenticated user by stravinsky.debian.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_X25519__RSA_PSS_RSAE_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256) (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEAXp-008fDh-S0; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:56:10 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511EF6E779; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from osgiliath.mathom.us ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (osgiliath.mathom.us [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with LMTP id 0dgX_LUDIMfy; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1E6C46E842; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:56:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:56:03 -0500 From: Michael Stone To: 62572@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline X-Debian-User: mstone X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) I tend to think this was a serious mistake: it breaks the behavior of existing scripts with no deprecation period. A stated advantage is better compatibility with freebsd, but I don't understand why that is more desirable than compatibility with all deployed gnu/linux systems? I also don't think it's sufficient to try to lawyer out by saying that the current behavior was undocumented: the previous documentation said that -n would "silently do nothing" and that the return code would be zero on success. Logically, unless cp fails to "do nothing", it should exit with a zero code. Such a drastic change in behavior demands a new flag, not a radical repurposing of a widely used existing flag. I was hoping to see more action on this bug, but that hasn't happened. I'm not sure I see a way forward for debian other than reverting to the old behavior. I am reluctant to do so as that will likely lead to divergent behavior between distributions, but breaking scripts without a compelling reason is also not good. I would encourage coreutils to reconsider the change and finding a non-breaking way forward. Michael Stone From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 15 13:33:10 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2023 18:33:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53442 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rECzm-0006oE-ER for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:33:10 -0500 Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]:52526) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rECzk-0006o1-OS for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:33:09 -0500 Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-40c6736d10fso11960315e9.1 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:33:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702665182; x=1703269982; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=slHkAI9ktELTgL79QsavQxlArJrfYceNuSxhOWBXZ7Q=; b=AW/LxQ2CvXgumjcp7XLu025OAVexarhEwa3wAfLQJUYtum729zQdGfRtJ0XMeAkQq3 DbnvgBT2nLnKwVWzmPKyXekZfySnm3r4WdixKJlVPVFkFXdqEUGT4c6xNbuFbFzwVkm5 6CgMiD3Pw3ku3WZeKjsCl/IcBEOZ3MsjVTV+Zz0sdnRK/Cs5O1URfmbrxvays5xUel73 4wdL0d/63/7FYEAgQM3PCkoHmH+RUW3KEgTeqWaqGBCBfbDyuYOQ7iehl4VKldllsHSM KM1BcRH8W7+WXSDMO6ilO79/L3NUPw6twATTBpaVmAW9Ufn3j5d06SK1YDL6e0DByz47 MFNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702665182; x=1703269982; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=slHkAI9ktELTgL79QsavQxlArJrfYceNuSxhOWBXZ7Q=; b=VNNBYDmwSJWu1Qzj6tz41QgOgvhkfGRfJNpGHW/XBRaEhqNifmMeT8rFyHsIkm3JeG o0kL+xRbd80AYZKWpbPUrWz2tp3dYhMGZ1NIXAnkENs5BD1BtcRFccVlpPLISD8FM10U 5cpCW8h/hgbFCNF3KcNiv1wMfab+StUarLazVRTzBhLgrVjjuMF3Qu0o2GTODh7kiS1o rNt6A6qyoABvAA5oNCjYGALfXCsUwGq9JJzXwTHm+dyVbAJkpvYucvu81LJLK9ZXWEtx R7K8bZw/oyIL2SX2j3QKBwFVvd3ngRXdIc294q99t96W4qdVkBoJdxp1n3U/v0MrpN7i t3tA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YynWnsfUR/jVr8O/p/diiWpn2xy9sxFYrFy6xju3fMKLVyB79KH EVUMEmDqw70AOL6Ulfa/6jk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IENaWfyMdh57KfvGbxKD9X0M94K5FrtxhqQavjcbz9+Eb2P+uUeL5iJeoujX9yRsXNWg0a/8w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:4a9f:b0:40c:5583:c6bb with SMTP id b31-20020a05600c4a9f00b0040c5583c6bbmr3718938wmp.174.1702665181946; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.20] (95-44-90-175-dynamic.agg2.lod.rsl-rtd.eircom.net. [95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k20-20020a05600c479400b0040c6a2f7387sm855227wmo.0.2023.12.15.10.33.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:33:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 18:33:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Michael Stone , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 15/12/2023 15:56, Michael Stone wrote: > I tend to think this was a serious mistake: it breaks the behavior of > existing scripts with no deprecation period. A stated advantage is > better compatibility with freebsd, but I don't understand why that is > more desirable than compatibility with all deployed gnu/linux systems? I > also don't think it's sufficient to try to lawyer out by saying that the > current behavior was undocumented: the previous documentation said that > -n would "silently do nothing" and that the return code would be zero on > success. Logically, unless cp fails to "do nothing", it should exit with > a zero code. > > Such a drastic change in behavior demands a new flag, not a radical > repurposing of a widely used existing flag. > > I was hoping to see more action on this bug, but that hasn't happened. > I'm not sure I see a way forward for debian other than reverting to the > old behavior. I am reluctant to do so as that will likely lead to > divergent behavior between distributions, but breaking scripts without a > compelling reason is also not good. I would encourage coreutils to > reconsider the change and finding a non-breaking way forward. Yes it's a fair point. It's an awkward case, and worth discussing. To summarise: coreutils >= 7.1 had -n skip existing in dest (2009) coreutils >= 9.2 has -n immediately fail if existing in dest coreutils >= 9.3 has --update=none to skip existing in dest FreeBSD >= 4.7/macos has -n immediately fail if existing in dest bash has noclobber as a file protection mechanism, and fails immediately upon trying to overwrite a file. This is more consistent with the new coreutils behavior. I see a reasonable amount of cp -n usage across github: https://github.com/search?q=/cp+.*+-n+.*/+path:*.sh&type=code Now it's not clear which behavior these github usages expect, and the original docs didn't make it clear which behavior to expect. A quick scan of the github usages also seem mainly to expect a protection rather than an update use case, so failing immediately would be the most appropriate action there too. Also the original coreutils bug report here expected the new behaviour. So we probably all agree that failing immediately is the most appropriate / consistent -n behavior, but GNU had diverged from that so there are about 10 years of scripts that may expect the silent skip behavior. Two options I see are: - Leave as is and fix -n usages that expected the skip behavior - Deprecate -n entirely and prompt to use --update={fail,none} Advantages of leaving as is: We get consistency of "noclobber" behavior across systems / shells. We fix cases where previously scripts could have proceeded with stale old files in place. Disadvantages of leaving as is: Users expecting the skip behavior, have to change to --update=none. There is no potential for data loss etc. so it just comes down to how disruptive it is, or how often -n was used with the "skip behavior" assumption. We've not had much push back as of yet, and my current thinking is it's not that disruptive a change. So I'd be 55:45 if favor of keeping things as is. thanks, Pádraig. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 15 13:50:10 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2023 18:50:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53451 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEDGD-0001PR-Tn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:50:10 -0500 Received: from stravinsky.debian.org ([2001:41b8:202:deb::311:108]:60808) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEDGC-0001PE-Al for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:50:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debian.org; s=smtpauto.stravinsky; h=X-Debian-User:In-Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date: Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=4ZBZYPXwEv6OAHiyBbTQN+zVXVblacuk/CNPnKV3d5k=; b=wMXaANjWFK2u+k1VEXdfsa4P7y sDBAf9MZ+Ji1dA8IZ8Cu9If3nRr1/Y+jB2/WxaBo3llsKYHRrQWparvg4lbaYnhzUAD1Edh5kbPxj 4HGF9N+iwRb0OslFx0PYOnFnBOj1cGnBIl8at762BouRpAVVu6o18WPpbDt8Ma3ZjWmcdkZmgKYoh uixwEDmJaCiTl0xxwELAPMIg7G5AXRW0VYXKGFS47OVAhe+CHnRRboKz/IxKhKjxkPNixCOeiyMZq w/5V7TiDSZA6dZuLTL7m+wE90vVu8IyhLBBQa1PWewM80C6xFC81NO6obpX385W37/nHRhdQDJl9H pU24olSA==; Received: from authenticated user by stravinsky.debian.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_X25519__RSA_PSS_RSAE_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256) (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEDG8-008ll6-Jd; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 18:50:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367156E779; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from osgiliath.mathom.us ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (osgiliath.mathom.us [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with LMTP id Q6Hcyd89EIA1; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D57AC6E842; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:49:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 13:49:59 -0500 From: Michael Stone To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E1draig?= Brady Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Message-ID: References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 02D5 315F F11F 1861 860E 1E02 F61A ACDC FA11 FFDE X-Debian-User: mstone X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 06:33:00PM +0000, Pádraig Brady wrote: >Advantages of leaving as is: >We get consistency of "noclobber" behavior across systems / shells. You don't, unless you ignore the coreutils/linux installed base entirely. Essentially the current situation is that -n shouldn't be used if you expect a certain behavior for this case and you are writing a script for linux systems. Maybe in 10 years you'll be able to assume the new behavior. Better to just tell people to not use it at all, and leave the historic behavior alone until everyone has stopped using -n entirely. >There is no potential for data loss etc. There may not be, strictly speaking, if you look only at cp without context, but we have absolutely no idea what the impact is on the unknown number of existing scripts that depend on the historic behavior. This is causing breakages in practice. >so it just comes >down to how disruptive it is, or how often -n was used >with the "skip behavior" assumption. IMO, it should come down to trying to avoid breaking changes in core system utilities. There's no compelling reason to force this change, so why break anything that depended on the historic behavior--especially without any notice or transition period--regardless of arguments over whether the historic behavior was right? >We've not had much push back as of yet, >and my current thinking is it's not that disruptive a change. I suspect that's because it has not yet been widely deployed, which makes now the time to fix it. Michael Stone From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 15 14:21:15 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2023 19:21:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53465 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEDkJ-0007QL-FB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:21:15 -0500 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:38232) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEDkG-0007Q0-TG for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:21:13 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9BD3C011BD7; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 11:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id ZalbAW26P_Ua; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 11:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6888E3C011BD8; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 11:21:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 6888E3C011BD8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1702668066; bh=wPyzi35t/ByMQ1O7F7NkTj+2xVy+/RrmIZcZ5DwanEE=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=OmHSqJiVmJYgl5PzL2T5rzfdmkpRe67JfADECCWYL+BEU+i8qfMdw8+w6aE+uKNqQ 12auhhe3C7MzSiqs3MaKX0klAATN24CRkC2SWTa4mPrx6opwbPoFrsMkgzy/M1EZgg yvonvPZZPKqri/0P7w358N19iBSS6UceMN0GTLbiHDE/3oAmOfl5bEugVXumDJkSP0 kPCnmz+zx3REdqoN730eo+/cntNbzZJvUyB0u/ZAZsLXFYFhWPvU81J+s9qDbGJ7lW wvwDsHlm6MHelFlUh1ZB+9h80SEBqHJH9mUUHOpDQG72d+Vy5BDO735l9Oju24VVsK +gVGDL/u5rSOQ== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 8KMMXTf-HrdZ; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 11:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.254.12] (unknown [47.148.192.211]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3D3303C011BD7; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 11:21:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 11:21:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Michael Stone , =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2023-12-15 10:49, Michael Stone wrote: > There's no compelling reason to force this change Well, certainly nobody compelled us at gunpoint.... Stlll, P=C3=A1draig gave a reasonable summary of why the change was made,= =20 despite its incompatibility with previous behavior. (One thing I'd add=20 is that the FreeBSD behavior is inherently less race-prone.) It seemed=20 like a good idea at the time all things considered, and to my mind still=20 does. > Essentially the current situation is that -n shouldn't be used if you e= xpect a certain behavior for this case and you are writing a script for l= inux systems. Maybe in 10 years you'll be able to assume the new behavior= . Better to just tell people to not use it at all, and leave the historic= behavior alone until everyone has stopped using -n entirely. Even if we tell people not to use -n at all, that doesn't mean we should=20 revert to the coreutils 9.1 behavior. The cat is to some extent out of the bag. Unless one insists on (FreeBSD=20 | coreutils 9.2-9.4), or insist on coreutils 7.1-9.1, one should not=20 rely on cp -n failing or silently succeeding when the destination=20 already exists. This will remain true regardless of whether coreutils=20 reverts to its 7.1-9.1 behavior. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 15 15:13:28 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2023 20:13:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53517 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEEYq-00009g-G1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:13:28 -0500 Received: from stravinsky.debian.org ([2001:41b8:202:deb::311:108]:34148) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEEYo-00009U-MB for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:13:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debian.org; s=smtpauto.stravinsky; h=X-Debian-User:In-Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date: Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=8+6bY5jLJTe8COB1O8x7IgB8slx1HrFEQXMysgxzrYI=; b=Iyanhn4oHNF8MxAm/IVNt+czLv z7r26DPSOkHdjmKafN8iY3ua0mpeb8rvotwVvgBscpnsKBHGn8rkP9c+SBSytXyFGJwAFxeeCuf/D acHFpOdYEWTmWuwAutEPYpD6cNMwz/Af7indEgfckALOCxpFi5Cd/4VCWrnitsArpwTGKNva5mCqq ygde/33UclkFjvS3Hqt4wRzGhPKqSWv4Nm/lcPC1mkciOAEgEr4rHVUlgWxdXFVsvKeyzv81qKPix ZqUgtUwCEri31rjBqZ5grAn+EpRwMP2nUF0y8mURJjRrSRqzTaI4ZE6RQ5QyBJzoJpX8KEpO3n9zI 3EtyKTfg==; Received: from authenticated user by stravinsky.debian.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_X25519__RSA_PSS_RSAE_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256) (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEEYh-008oop-Gx; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 20:13:19 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530B16E779; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from osgiliath.mathom.us ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (osgiliath.mathom.us [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with LMTP id Ivgq3lwvGU_s; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2285B6E842; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:13:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:13:16 -0500 From: Michael Stone To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Message-ID: References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 02D5 315F F11F 1861 860E 1E02 F61A ACDC FA11 FFDE X-Debian-User: mstone X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E1draig?= Brady , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:21:06AM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: >Stlll, Pádraig gave a reasonable summary of why the change was made, >despite its incompatibility with previous behavior. (One thing I'd add >is that the FreeBSD behavior is inherently less race-prone.) It seemed >like a good idea at the time all things considered, and to my mind >still does. I think you underestimate the value of maintaining compatibity with deployed versions. In the abstract it may have been a nice cleanup, but there are a lot of dumb things in the posix utilities that have been dumb for so long it's not worth the pain of changing them. Since this change hasn't yet hit mainstream debian, ubuntu, rhel, or suse users, I strongly suspect that this is a case where the absence of complaints is simply a sign that most of the people who'd be impacted haven't experienced the change yet. >Even if we tell people not to use -n at all, that doesn't mean we >should revert to the coreutils 9.1 behavior. It does, IMO, as it would be less likely to break scripts written by existing coreutils users. >The cat is to some extent out of the bag. Unless one insists on >(FreeBSD | coreutils 9.2-9.4), or insist on coreutils 7.1-9.1, one >should not rely on cp -n failing or silently succeeding when the >destination already exists. This will remain true regardless of >whether coreutils reverts to its 7.1-9.1 behavior. Or you use a distribution that has to patch to maintain compatibility between versions. Ideally upstream would revert the behavior for now, deprecate as the long term fix, and all distributions would work the same. The other option is that each distribution decides whether to be compatible with upstream coreutils or their own previous release. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 16 16:47:30 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Dec 2023 21:47:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56222 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEcVN-0006pG-NW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:47:30 -0500 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.13]:55611) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEcVJ-0006on-7q for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:47:28 -0500 Received: from [192.168.101.10] ([91.49.71.159]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MdeX1-1roEMc14Yz-00ZgbN; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 22:46:59 +0100 Message-ID: <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 22:46:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Michael Stone , Paul Eggert References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> From: Bernhard Voelker In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rG9tyRMdhq8EqzGeUdM6FkghRwpN0kUCvbnLgJUSYQj7SAQmWh9 SF54GJEKRMlsRK8bLNQATAM2Ki/avDKsJNySajkL5Moj7IGYgXIcM2ZWueBANtHvJSHK/79 zxNbT/MfkDtQt9nCM30hwgyvlLe6bTRdpEZbM/rvTkgSN19GRqUCtwsuFvtJvsP1uYOhXDj 8iZRJwcwWyKq00uRTsciw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:meWY4DeeU/o=;CJ1we1FCo4RtdmT9/gVmDcVqwWI nSAPFhOept7gwL3ux9liooxUF0yvvR80VXLP30LJ625xzlEOWd+MQqDdHs0NjQzS0tPc8EEU9 suzBPXzl3Gq0Q+2JD352zVeI6a8EoJ+aMD5b9Wo3b21s+e3WqeMLKfD1d0rAgdfJipCfBzCDH wS6yK+jeCxj85ST5xewEvYHgsD7lKSUwoM1Cr+lnJj5PnTeeVtxzgGrG5bQBl/dwWGNANp3mT oB0Ina6oZcQwUnb1C55D9VvyvSDFyRuFjK6Sn8PGwjaPaywqM5LsF+wZxbyc2mcnI15iM7kOj dulr/vSMKKwUO46d1k4UH0Hl4cOwBMT3moqAuE+4GAvGkkEC0gvHnzzUt2E59GehnLGNLKnV+ 8O+1xjSMz123p8qSsqOtS2VMtUzC7TytRWuQmqgwFGb2vDXoXwrRqq3CdTXmfh5qT8ULu5w60 9MXIi3ZAwZqn0zXuY32kix9aPDfJoafz+P1UjOWcCURVg6UGxH9O010I0xCCLbl5iDE9hHU12 DR5msBc+fw+GvF5M9KER9b+Eb2Ng5Zu57YnUVhDSEFUL+7j1S5r+uwkCFTZFacD6ZloktvFpE mInaSt9dPCL5EBYM0i1hUKKa17qh7Cjwy4KKbiO6ljL3rZE1lWlDR95boyCb513FCWruN1gD4 bhNGobgAqTzT5aODJKs90esX/HM9unlEnDDXthUGbiM8Oh7OkXVp92a5cUfwL3PlLfBkjS1na hs8DKlC8y45FGGCUjM1q8P5Avjkjt5q8LkkKEtNzrt+uI9B5BGYyLK93lmTtu/0gXcjY2SDNe 2iICvJ5HtoajJyWQBst7JSHJJEwjk9juisfF30Q78J8Gp3b6IsUTJl5QFO5IeVg0FNfZy9UO7 HOzCc0/c/FdWLKw== X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 12/15/23 21:13, Michael Stone wrote: > On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:21:06AM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: >> Stlll, Pádraig gave a reasonable summary of why the change was made, >> despite its incompatibility with previous behavior. (One thing I'd add >> is that the FreeBSD behavior is inherently less race-prone.) Whether the implementation is race-prone or not is an internal thing. I think we're currently discussing more on a user-perspective level. IIUC then the question is whether `cp -n` should continue to behave like the (new) `cp --update=none` which returns EXIT_SUCCESS. Regardless what other implementations do, when reading the -n description from a user's point of view: -n, --no-clobber do not overwrite an existing file (overrides a -u or previous -i option). See also --update then I'd expect the tool to just skip existing files like `rsync --ignore-existing` does. In that regard I would be surprised if skipping files would result in an error. Well, I would understand if there'd be a '--no-clobber=fail' option. As Kamil added the option in 2009, I'd assume that the same patch was already active in RHEL versions for quite some longer time. Now changing the exit code feels kind of rough. Therefore, from a pure user's perspective and regarding many years of precedence, I am 80:20 for reverting the exit code change. Have a nice day, Berny From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 17 03:34:22 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2023 08:34:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56559 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEmbO-0001zU-1H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 03:34:22 -0500 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:34022) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEmbL-0001zB-NU for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 03:34:20 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E15D3C011BDC; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 00:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id rwF3XZApO6OG; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 00:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317D43C011BDD; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 00:34:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 317D43C011BDD DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1702802052; bh=1yEKwqTc+em01yQ+h6oydfyOXCWuZjc4aU8uBaPo7eE=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=q18VgC3F+A5ySgfgtZ3CFxsY7jF4ghJuRovTTahaxF02fzDBESwxpm04wq30Y35+c NV6oSDMYQs62IYFKh9obNJN3/6Nk2lk3bRO+7XumZvwo+lottYkVsIVJWW8KA2n9QT JqnEfElQ88LgDDeFbGQn+rqJ8df5LtJ7sMLHovVcV0+M/jzyIkrytleAHVkMAOgc8G 8emYm5YQ6GwfhVx2awvJYKb0BMOz7nhFjzx2ckXIkBHA3AbQNONimd9Vl7EJsDlqBE o2fg55gHuKSEBQ4wSWSQfpuC45g3mQMN0z1WLifpuypFJv/ob/iuQT3av9ccNOtSwT LGt5KolUccEng== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 8EeMLk0KZa97; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 00:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.254.12] (unknown [47.148.192.211]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 026513C011BDC; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 00:34:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00928078-830e-4d01-8627-91e348e71f7c@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 00:34:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Bernhard Voelker , Michael Stone References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2023-12-16 13:46, Bernhard Voelker wrote: > Whether the implementation is race-prone or not is an internal thing. I wasn't referring to the internal implementation. I was referring to cp users. With the newer Coreutils (FreeBSD) behavior, you can reliably write a script to do something if cp -n didn't copy the file because the destination already existed. With the older Coreutils behavior you cannot do that reliably; there will always be a race condition. 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[95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f9-20020a05600c154900b0040c4be1af17sm26495743wmg.21.2023.12.17.06.46.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Dec 2023 06:46:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 14:46:03 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Bernhard Voelker , Michael Stone , Paul Eggert References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 16/12/2023 21:46, Bernhard Voelker wrote: > On 12/15/23 21:13, Michael Stone wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:21:06AM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: >>> Stlll, Pádraig gave a reasonable summary of why the change was made, To clarify my summary a little, there I said that -n now _immediately_ fails. I should have said _silently_ fails. I.e. the complete copy operation proceeds as before, and only the exit status is at issue here. >>> despite its incompatibility with previous behavior. (One thing I'd add >>> is that the FreeBSD behavior is inherently less race-prone.) > > Whether the implementation is race-prone or not is an internal thing. > I think we're currently discussing more on a user-perspective level. > > IIUC then the question is whether `cp -n` should continue to behave like > the (new) `cp --update=none` which returns EXIT_SUCCESS. > > Regardless what other implementations do, when reading the -n description > from a user's point of view: > > -n, --no-clobber do not overwrite an existing file (overrides a > -u or previous -i option). See also --update > > then I'd expect the tool to just skip existing files like `rsync --ignore-existing` > does. In that regard I would be surprised if skipping files would result in an error. > Well, I would understand if there'd be a '--no-clobber=fail' option. Agreed we should improve the docs a bit for this option. I'll apply this at least: diff --git a/doc/coreutils.texi b/doc/coreutils.texi index 1f8b356d1..bf0f424d3 100644 --- a/doc/coreutils.texi +++ b/doc/coreutils.texi @@ -9057,6 +9057,8 @@ Do not overwrite an existing file; silently fail instead. This option overrides a previous @option{-i} option. This option is mutually exclusive with @option{-b} or @option{--backup} option. +See also the @option{--update=none} option which will +skip existing files but not fail. @item -P @itemx --no-dereference diff --git a/src/cp.c b/src/cp.c index 04a5cbee3..3ccc4c4e6 100644 --- a/src/cp.c +++ b/src/cp.c @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ Copy SOURCE to DEST, or multiple SOURCE(s) to DIRECTORY.\n\ -L, --dereference always follow symbolic links in SOURCE\n\ "), stdout); fputs (_("\ - -n, --no-clobber do not overwrite an existing file (overrides a\n\ - -u or previous -i option). See also --update\n\ + -n, --no-clobber ensure no existing files overwritten, and fail\n\ + silently instead. See also --update\n\ "), stdout); fputs (_("\ -P, --no-dereference never follow symbolic links in SOURCE\n\ > As Kamil added the option in 2009, I'd assume that the same patch was already > active in RHEL versions for quite some longer time. > Now changing the exit code feels kind of rough. Well RHEL 6 came out a bit after (2010), and had the --no-clobber change, while RHEL 5 before that did not. Taking about distros, it's worth noting that the change is Fedora 39 which has been released for a month now. We'll keep a close eye on issues, but haven't heard much as of yet at least. > Therefore, from a pure user's perspective and regarding many years of precedence, > I am 80:20 for reverting the exit code change. Thanks for your thoughts, appreciated as always. cheers, Pádraig From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 17 09:49:34 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2023 14:49:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56819 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEsST-0001dn-Na for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 09:49:33 -0500 Received: from stravinsky.debian.org ([2001:41b8:202:deb::311:108]:36962) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEsSQ-0001db-S7 for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 09:49:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debian.org; s=smtpauto.stravinsky; h=X-Debian-User:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version: References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=bAL3rUlNF4Cv9385TVblK3YG6SbGXVhvlFxhl6FBUIA=; b=IOE6zMurMtsOVfefLGpkE/DnAV FVTpcmY/cjXTGMiLYLk8JKG0zFXdm1agaO1oj2sHVZ4q3xx12fTDfNeNjYHY/sG/kSHOyXnbhuWJI 1JlXku6vm9KR16niNGHUZLzsjSci/+AAsKANOMIXY11fsVcgUDJ/Haj6sFcNsBfr3cj2MUbpmLOZA /VclFHzgjqS1ODs3h19f/ocsRq/tuYfenTi5rA1XaMTbLv/72s9itXyab+2j1mnxnZOMmiMSNJwwB BYt3SO3HNtmft+vootFGHLvLEO/GuPm0bB5lxr2MoHZWch0Y6RGNMMZTXTJPHw/FU7QVMp9V0+W9h ClEPgwTA==; Received: from authenticated user by stravinsky.debian.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_X25519__RSA_PSS_RSAE_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256) (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEsSI-00APPv-2K; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 14:49:22 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39B96E7E4; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 09:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from osgiliath.mathom.us ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (osgiliath.mathom.us [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with LMTP id 1aGGIHhYOExk; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 09:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E20A6E814; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 09:49:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 09:49:08 -0500 From: Michael Stone To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Message-ID: <41581dc6-9ceb-11ee-9b6a-00163eeb5320@msgid.mathom.us> References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <00928078-830e-4d01-8627-91e348e71f7c@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00928078-830e-4d01-8627-91e348e71f7c@cs.ucla.edu> X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 02D5 315F F11F 1861 860E 1E02 F61A ACDC FA11 FFDE X-Debian-User: mstone X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Bernhard Voelker , =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E1draig?= Brady , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org, 1058752@bugs.debian.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 12:34:11AM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: >On 2023-12-16 13:46, Bernhard Voelker wrote: >>Whether the implementation is race-prone or not is an internal thing. > >I wasn't referring to the internal implementation. I was referring to >cp users. With the newer Coreutils (FreeBSD) behavior, you can >reliably write a script to do something if cp -n didn't copy the file >because the destination already existed. With the older Coreutils >behavior you cannot do that reliably; there will always be a race >condition. You can now reliably write a script using the new long option. Changing the behavior of the short option helped nobody. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 17 10:52:05 2023 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2023 15:52:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58898 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEtQy-0005rC-7y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 10:52:05 -0500 Received: from ipv6.notk.org ([2001:41d0:1:7a93::1]:33428 helo=nautica.notk.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rEq6i-0005EK-Am for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 07:18:57 -0500 Received: by nautica.notk.org (Postfix, from userid 108) id A5C98C01C; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 13:18:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=codewreck.org; s=2; t=1702815533; bh=wdfhWVgBaKqbd/1M/JhrkWN8/f6H+UvQ8DXnh82X9Q4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=1n66Ea4PY61j0ndUO7xB/D4LlLUTQLzkHB5T1vTPdmkBOpiANGxcJkoUdnkhNJeZc wwUQ/5Cvz+bSoSklN7Xoi5FsVoQxtoPix3JQvK63Uap1IyC7W6KUUKS4SA3xA4ZCPY ic0abFJuUTlfeG8Do4cjzTdGtx2C2XgTbMeidz+O7NHMa3uk0obALCCFkh0T8exH00 REH6Lou+/bq+UVwhvCnGFPNX72P9JAF5O7lKA46Q6n2ykWWt47zDGtvFRQyNoVUA5K 3NHQx8Z6jidFoFk6UDThswqA85L1BDbBoZiAhwfjeQwn/JhQqQWjtl3fqdoFRnbbup 7tgUpZ5uszp/g== X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on nautica.notk.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from gaia (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nautica.notk.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A26D4C009; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 13:18:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=codewreck.org; s=2; t=1702815533; bh=wdfhWVgBaKqbd/1M/JhrkWN8/f6H+UvQ8DXnh82X9Q4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=1n66Ea4PY61j0ndUO7xB/D4LlLUTQLzkHB5T1vTPdmkBOpiANGxcJkoUdnkhNJeZc wwUQ/5Cvz+bSoSklN7Xoi5FsVoQxtoPix3JQvK63Uap1IyC7W6KUUKS4SA3xA4ZCPY ic0abFJuUTlfeG8Do4cjzTdGtx2C2XgTbMeidz+O7NHMa3uk0obALCCFkh0T8exH00 REH6Lou+/bq+UVwhvCnGFPNX72P9JAF5O7lKA46Q6n2ykWWt47zDGtvFRQyNoVUA5K 3NHQx8Z6jidFoFk6UDThswqA85L1BDbBoZiAhwfjeQwn/JhQqQWjtl3fqdoFRnbbup 7tgUpZ5uszp/g== Received: from localhost (gaia [local]) by gaia (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id c67393bf; Sun, 17 Dec 2023 12:18:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 21:18:33 +0900 From: Dominique Martinet To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Message-ID: References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 10:51:58 -0500 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, =?utf-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig?= Brady , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Stone X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Paul Eggert wrote on Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:21:06AM -0800: > The cat is to some extent out of the bag. Unless one insists on (FreeBSD | > coreutils 9.2-9.4), or insist on coreutils 7.1-9.1, one should not rely on > cp -n failing or silently succeeding when the destination already exists. > This will remain true regardless of whether coreutils reverts to its 7.1-9.1 > behavior. This. Scripts that want to be portable already can't assume cp -n will do what they want, so at this point it doesn't really matter what coreutils does in the grand scheme of things. For distros like debian since even -testing hasn't seen coreutils 9.2, there's still value in reverting locally (with a warning that it's not reliable perhaps?), but in general coreutils 9.2 has been out for 9 months (2023 March 20), so many systems can already be considered affected; but it's a disservice to users to just try to hide the problem under the rug. (To give a data point, this did bite us as well, and I was annoyed enough that I went to look for the old bug report back in September, but at that point 9.3 had already been out and I had given up without reporting anything as nothing would change the fact that my scripts would need updating. For the gory details I also need compatibility with busybox cp (where -n silently ignores existing files), so --update=none is not an option, but I for this particular usage I settled for '-u' (--update=older, that busybox also support as short option only...), and I since hurried to forget about it) -- Dominique Martinet | Asmadeus From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 28 08:22:41 2024 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jan 2024 13:22:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56850 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rU57R-0004cv-EC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:22:41 -0500 Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]:45215) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rU57P-0004cf-95 for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:22:40 -0500 Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3392b045e0aso1802039f8f.2 for <62572@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 05:22:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1706448145; x=1707052945; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:reply-to:cc:to :from:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IHF2XS/8sAF+b4GI8SPON+kxdpd7BwrdTDFjYbEjrWM=; b=P2q7EUDG7WiC7PC6aZJ03BgS9TDeQ4vG+CP+GbQaY3xwBfLXSc4UjhAz/IrUKrHkNX svwWEeMz+iQ99Gp539peJKKW2VE6aTH7ZPOzuM9/O4bD1SIyO7pFlHrcS93xB4uRUBeF hQUaydgtJtfP05UXlhesT+F7Mn8k81JKDpwp/HM6tLcHjA71uPTuem6CN9bC2eTMg4Jr SOrzSqAaNXiaPIHSYSBTnYRdDNVPUSuAILjr6jhjI46kcpuE3gZ80BP/xaRk5vnvfBo2 Rfkwf6pSDhORlamtBSS/8H7YV2XgjbU/3X3gaZwhIITM/VPZii7XJfMzsvWAvMM7JbXe zmUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1706448145; x=1707052945; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:reply-to:cc:to :from:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=IHF2XS/8sAF+b4GI8SPON+kxdpd7BwrdTDFjYbEjrWM=; b=BLP27Bu+cZnGWI7nGQbK4FtqsKG2z+5a+c8saUtEZwuBJNhtB4vxSJm30Mp9CYoe7d ew3FZu6iBneDxpnctc5HU/vOKnU8uNaUle98/tEzlbTwjLb2yb2v1T8R8PBbgsl3rffy LrYznX5/fY5f+PCSnRnJ8ZKzELSucg04Ykq6wg17cEMlD4bn3T0XyqCNPgpGAWMwipic DWXY5P/M25spspgRZt2aYzkEcWKRZVocEK6vRSJwTAV6kS0kchmC/rgrXSrxE5rIp+sF 2ea0UX9AIpmFmk0K0SBRrRkheqntNxUcoCJ6EiIc/55LEaIwY+CsRcv+axPJgwKDf6ED //0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YybiSkvU4KVX5b4D2/FTBOkLp9IJ06yj6Yo91rGiC5x4Pk/j43+ P6a3F5SGzHxPxYe+h7QHUfCdvvpZM6cX6hA/TaouIJHzvCDhkBlJefu0Qyyz X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGvcJ2D0IEpM19qUkUtjIW6ZYMwYPfh9XWG2gQhZ1IjcuJTCRDr5aNrbBQepikRjeaTEKOkNw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:ead2:0:b0:337:c730:d7e3 with SMTP id o18-20020adfead2000000b00337c730d7e3mr2372447wrn.57.1706448145320; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 05:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.20] (86-40-129-3-dynamic.agg2.lod.rsl-rtd.eircom.net. [86.40.129.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f7-20020a5d58e7000000b0033922f918f2sm5582321wrd.64.2024.01.28.05.22.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Jan 2024 05:22:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 13:22:24 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= To: Bernhard Voelker , Michael Stone , Paul Eggert References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> In-Reply-To: <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , 1058752@bugs.debian.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 17/12/2023 14:46, Pádraig Brady wrote: > On 16/12/2023 21:46, Bernhard Voelker wrote: >> On 12/15/23 21:13, Michael Stone wrote: >>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:21:06AM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: >>>> Stlll, Pádraig gave a reasonable summary of why the change was made, > > To clarify my summary a little, there I said that -n now _immediately_ fails. > I should have said _silently_ fails. I.e. the complete copy operation > proceeds as before, and only the exit status is at issue here. > >>>> despite its incompatibility with previous behavior. (One thing I'd add >>>> is that the FreeBSD behavior is inherently less race-prone.) >> >> Whether the implementation is race-prone or not is an internal thing. >> I think we're currently discussing more on a user-perspective level. >> >> IIUC then the question is whether `cp -n` should continue to behave like >> the (new) `cp --update=none` which returns EXIT_SUCCESS. >> >> Regardless what other implementations do, when reading the -n description >> from a user's point of view: >> >> -n, --no-clobber do not overwrite an existing file (overrides a >> -u or previous -i option). See also --update >> >> then I'd expect the tool to just skip existing files like `rsync --ignore-existing` >> does. In that regard I would be surprised if skipping files would result in an error. >> Well, I would understand if there'd be a '--no-clobber=fail' option. > > Agreed we should improve the docs a bit for this option. > I'll apply this at least: > > diff --git a/doc/coreutils.texi b/doc/coreutils.texi > index 1f8b356d1..bf0f424d3 100644 > --- a/doc/coreutils.texi > +++ b/doc/coreutils.texi > @@ -9057,6 +9057,8 @@ Do not overwrite an existing file; silently fail instead. > This option overrides a previous > @option{-i} option. This option is mutually exclusive with @option{-b} or > @option{--backup} option. > +See also the @option{--update=none} option which will > +skip existing files but not fail. > > @item -P > @itemx --no-dereference > diff --git a/src/cp.c b/src/cp.c > index 04a5cbee3..3ccc4c4e6 100644 > --- a/src/cp.c > +++ b/src/cp.c > @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ Copy SOURCE to DEST, or multiple SOURCE(s) to DIRECTORY.\n\ > -L, --dereference always follow symbolic links in SOURCE\n\ > "), stdout); > fputs (_("\ > - -n, --no-clobber do not overwrite an existing file (overrides a\n\ > - -u or previous -i option). See also --update\n\ > + -n, --no-clobber ensure no existing files overwritten, and fail\n\ > + silently instead. See also --update\n\ > "), stdout); > fputs (_("\ > -P, --no-dereference never follow symbolic links in SOURCE\n\ > > >> As Kamil added the option in 2009, I'd assume that the same patch was already >> active in RHEL versions for quite some longer time. >> Now changing the exit code feels kind of rough. > > Well RHEL 6 came out a bit after (2010), and had the --no-clobber change, > while RHEL 5 before that did not. > > Taking about distros, it's worth noting that the change is Fedora 39 > which has been released for a month now. > We'll keep a close eye on issues, but haven't heard much as > of yet at least. > >> Therefore, from a pure user's perspective and regarding many years of precedence, >> I am 80:20 for reverting the exit code change. > > Thanks for your thoughts, > appreciated as always. We were undecided how to proceed as of the above discussion, with some hoping to consolidate -n behavior across all systems, with others preferring to keep compat with original Linux behavior. Things have changed in Debian I see, so that cp -n now aggressively warns like: https://sources.debian.org/patches/coreutils/9.4-3/cp-n.diff/ $ cp -n /bin/true tmp cp: warning: behavior of -n is non-portable and may change in future; use --update=none instead This is problematic as: - It's noisy - There is no way to get the behavior of indicating failure if existing files present - The --update=none advice is only portable to newer coreutils To summarise existing use cases of -n: 1. User expected -n to exit failure if existing files 2. User didn't care about existing status 3. User expected -n to exit success if existing files Use case 3 is the problematic case we changed behavior for, but also I think that's the minority of the 3 use cases and could have been fixed forward. The debian advice forces use case 2 to change, and provides bad advice for use case 1, and in fact there is no solution now for use case 1. At this stage it seems best for us go back to the original Linux behiavor (use case 3), and to silently deprecate -n in docs to document the portability issues with it. We should also provide --update=noclobber for use case 1. Having the control on the --update option, allows use to more clearly deprecate -n. I do realise folks may expect use case 1 now with -n, especially on releases like Fedora 39, but given the feedback that would be the least bad option. thanks, Pádraig From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 29 02:14:31 2024 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2024 07:14:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58991 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rULqg-0001rF-RJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 02:14:31 -0500 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:55836) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rULqf-0001r2-2Q for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 02:14:29 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70C53C013279; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 23:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10032) with ESMTP id uVctBcLvtGS2; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 23:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986EF3C00FAB4; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 23:14:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 986EF3C00FAB4 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1706512454; bh=1b54JXteM9bIZTBqi8dTD0fyjgo5FwVX6fsOvEmqhIs=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=MFkkBtejGcBW/zpGpYA0SIcghVQz5bM59QA50gjwFZ9cHR/stabXyLUFAc7qN/Iq3 XC1ckttPmlMz9qBBwvmp1oGKI4lf/7irOCL9XKPvce0KGrfgRAXNSvGxzp1ULlXc6L QlJ0Zo3bdsEGPPIDOq7CxtznlNGyjgn6R9BzyamJeC0kJaJWOCmMoX6hOgOkh2404o esf/WAp4UpQjkn6YnG59T0Yav0l417HfY5SVqD10XDiXfoZQNrC3uBjxPx0nxs9uIg R7xYkNZ4atSn/sclSkf5xuX/GAQ9+VXhBXgcp53cCf6zPp08vTzpAdvbdCCJ7gwC1V UZh0jckVaWdDw== X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10026) with ESMTP id Jt3fcJVzcBQu; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 23:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.254.12] (unknown [47.148.192.211]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 681FA3C013279; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 23:14:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 23:14:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , 1058752@bugs.debian.org, Bernhard Voelker , Michael Stone References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2024-01-28 05:22, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > At this stage it seems best for us go back to the original Linux=20 > behiavor (use case 3), > and to silently deprecate -n in docs to document the portability issues= =20 > with it. I'm not sure reverting would be best. It would introduce more confusion,=20 and would make coreutils incompatible with FreeBSD again. The recent Debian change indicates that their intent is to move to the=20 FreeBSD behavior too. This would improve cross-platform portability and=20 I don't think we should discourage that. > $ cp -n /bin/true tmp > cp: warning: behavior of -n is non-portable and may change in future;= use --update=3Dnone instead >=20 > This is problematic as: >=20 > - It's noisy Yes that's a problem, and I doubt whether we should mimic Debian. > - There is no way to get the behavior of indicating failure if existi= ng files present Yes, it's not a good place to be. Surely current coreutils is better=20 than what Debian is doing. > - The --update=3Dnone advice is only portable to newer coreutils True, but that's not a deal-killer. No advice that we give can be 100%=20 portable to all platforms. > We should also provide --update=3Dnoclobber for use case 1. > Having the control on the --update option, allows use to more clearly=20 > deprecate -n. Adding an --update=3Dnoclobber sounds like a good thing to do. Another possibility is to add a warning that is emitted only at the end=20 of 'cp'. The warning would occur only if the exit code differs because=20 of this cp -n business. We could stretch things a bit and have a=20 configure-time option --enable-compat-warnings that builders like Debian=20 could use if they want such warnings. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 29 09:01:34 2024 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2024 14:01:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59339 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUSCc-0007Rm-8c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 09:01:34 -0500 Received: from stravinsky.debian.org ([2001:41b8:202:deb::311:108]:60348) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUSCZ-0007RZ-9M for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 09:01:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debian.org; s=smtpauto.stravinsky; h=X-Debian-User:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version: References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=7zJGgrgZuWGSRKLoif5E+s0ECy28+Gnwm6OkpE2kJrE=; b=KyiWh0+wc/o1fOUqeOgY/ILTBV MmF7+QmTzT+Gg65QzGBlvXJ+O/+RdqP/W/KfVYUW3VoM3uXMhspVwVKqSet6W6ebuhLhqwT3FsN8F 5pz9VNqv8qnK7nUtPhtIy4Ml3hdm78ewJR5p5lPfvMr7Z8m8QVhC1mFyq5u+mtZnS0fhCXypNMKko t2UpS0wtu82o4N+EMeCcDFWUDj4BHsDqiIZiXseGSCbv0nsvsVJTeGl35GJrURa98nQfGiIKuDk+l 5UBjuRfgzTNYE5uIWAhdL5LWxcQLSiUmqUbFoly/2EtqroZ2wtKuT0GRj1G6xVgzzgDkTRw3+3PwU FL1mWoGA==; Received: from authenticated user by stravinsky.debian.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_X25519__RSA_PSS_RSAE_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256) (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUSCJ-005I5m-Te; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 14:01:16 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD036E655; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 09:01:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from osgiliath.mathom.us ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (osgiliath.mathom.us [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with LMTP id V0T50kLVDIgW; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 09:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ADF0B6E768; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 09:01:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 09:01:10 -0500 From: Michael Stone To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Message-ID: References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 02D5 315F F11F 1861 860E 1E02 F61A ACDC FA11 FFDE X-Debian-User: mstone X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E1draig?= Brady , Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 11:14:14PM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: >I'm not sure reverting would be best. It would introduce more >confusion, and would make coreutils incompatible with FreeBSD again. Reverting makes more sense than the current situation. I do not understand why you seem to value FreeBSD compatibility more than compatibility with the vast majority of installed coreutils/linux systems. >Yes, it's not a good place to be. Surely current coreutils is better >than what Debian is doing. You've introduced a silent incompatibility and I'm trying to find some way to make that clear. If upstream would provide a better solution I would certainly use it. I have despaired of there being such since your attitude thus far seems to be entirely dismissive of compatibility concerns. >Another possibility is to add a warning that is emitted only at the >end of 'cp'. The warning would occur only if the exit code differs >because of this cp -n business. You'd only emit a notification of a change in behavior if some (potentially uncommon/rarely encountered) situation arises which would actually trigger breakage? So people can't prepare ahead of time and change their script to handle the necessary change in logic, they can only maybe figure out why something broke at 2am when the uncommon event occurred? At the end of the day, -n is basically a useless option with unknowable semantics which should be avoided by everyone. In the past it was an option which wasn't portable between coreutils/linux and freebsd systems, and I guess you've "fixed" that (by making it an option everyone should avoid entirely), but let's be honest about how common that concern was. 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[86.40.129.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id m3-20020a05600c4f4300b0040e89ade83fsm2021057wmq.1.2024.01.29.08.11.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Jan 2024 08:11:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 16:11:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Michael Stone , Paul Eggert References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 29/01/2024 14:01, Michael Stone wrote: > On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 11:14:14PM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote: >> I'm not sure reverting would be best. It would introduce more >> confusion, and would make coreutils incompatible with FreeBSD again. > > Reverting makes more sense than the current situation. I do not > understand why you seem to value FreeBSD compatibility more than > compatibility with the vast majority of installed coreutils/linux > systems. > >> Yes, it's not a good place to be. Surely current coreutils is better >> than what Debian is doing. > > You've introduced a silent incompatibility and I'm trying to find some > way to make that clear. If upstream would provide a better solution I > would certainly use it. I have despaired of there being such since your > attitude thus far seems to be entirely dismissive of compatibility > concerns. That's a bit unfair. The current upstream -n behavior is with a view to being _more_ compat across all systems. Now I agree this may not be worth it in this case, but it is a laudable goal. >> Another possibility is to add a warning that is emitted only at the >> end of 'cp'. The warning would occur only if the exit code differs >> because of this cp -n business. > > You'd only emit a notification of a change in behavior if some > (potentially uncommon/rarely encountered) situation arises which would > actually trigger breakage? So people can't prepare ahead of time and > change their script to handle the necessary change in logic, they can > only maybe figure out why something broke at 2am when the uncommon event > occurred? Yes I agree with this point, mostly. Outputting a diagnostic would help users diagnose what's going on, and help users to fix forward and avoid their problematic -n usage. But yes, the crux of the issue with fixing issues as they occur, is it depends on the state of the destination and so can become an issue at any time. Now I previously did an audit with github and debian code search and noticed very few problematic uses of cp -n, but that does miss the mountain of private code. > At the end of the day, -n is basically a useless option with unknowable > semantics which should be avoided by everyone. In the past it was an > option which wasn't portable between coreutils/linux and freebsd systems, > and I guess you've "fixed" that (by making it an option everyone should > avoid entirely), but let's be honest about how common that concern was. Right, that's why I'm still leaning towards my proposal in the last mail. - revert to previous exit success -n behavior - document -n as deprecated - provide --update=noclobber to give exit failure functionality - BTW, it probably makes sense to print a diagnostic for each skipped file here as it's exceptional behavior, for which we're exiting with failure for. - the existing --update=none provides the exit success functionality With the above in place for the next coreutils release, then debian could remove its noisy patch. thanks, Pádraig From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 29 11:45:20 2024 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2024 16:45:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33318 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUUl6-0003rU-DX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:45:20 -0500 Received: from stravinsky.debian.org ([2001:41b8:202:deb::311:108]:58512) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUUl3-0003rH-Lo for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:45:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debian.org; s=smtpauto.stravinsky; h=X-Debian-User:In-Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date: Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=N0zl084D62buc2TdJoxPM9XRt+/MxZi2nPIBMza2Wv4=; b=fv0hUDiHGO3Q7G5f04nol5+n2p 9l/1SmJOs/hJZm2UKg6+G833JPRIOzh/IH/KlM70qNq6fDMmMWHF74AGh/rYlJy785aEEsbaktKy1 YL7GoGZbX/W3NF4xoNav5rtupq/KCin5vnN1D5FNV09UamcubELu9JmlkK82F3fHgQRLSZkRtq4RD fazKmAYwdHOCHdg5fzKQmDgWyyEapQSYm3JHkNGUenF3MaQSLX5R+q8yFkdppsE8qXmYM/aQ7wcmF UzisWY3GWRNPilYDCzgHzoi3FNzWq8dzSpWzRL+nmJKZ4oV7SIwD4cegPVFd2CdI9XyYO/YOvetVi gPTDFslA==; Received: from authenticated user by stravinsky.debian.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_X25519__RSA_PSS_RSAE_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256) (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUUkn-005OPr-Sd; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 16:45:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611106E655; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from osgiliath.mathom.us ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (osgiliath.mathom.us [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with LMTP id 6dL9_fPLOhaM; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by osgiliath.mathom.us (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 08B946E768; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:44:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:44:57 -0500 From: Michael Stone To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E1draig?= Brady Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Message-ID: <631248ea-bec1-11ee-9b6a-00163eeb5320@msgid.mathom.us> References: <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 02D5 315F F11F 1861 860E 1E02 F61A ACDC FA11 FFDE X-Debian-User: mstone X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: Paul Eggert , Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org, 1058752@bugs.debian.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 04:11:05PM +0000, Pádraig Brady wrote: >>You've introduced a silent incompatibility and I'm trying to find some >>way to make that clear. If upstream would provide a better solution I >>would certainly use it. I have despaired of there being such since your >>attitude thus far seems to be entirely dismissive of compatibility >>concerns. > >That's a bit unfair. The current upstream -n behavior is with a view >to being _more_ compat across all systems. >Now I agree this may not be worth it in this case, >but it is a laudable goal. You are saying that again without explicitly acknowledging that "being _more_ compat" in this case means "becoming _incompat_ with the vast majority of installed systems". IMO it could be reasonably phrased as "being more compatible across all systems in the long term when all existing legacy systems are gone", but the key here is that I read "_more_ compat across all systems" as dismissing the coreutils installed base as part of "all systems". I understand that may not be/have been the intent, but I also can't help feeling the way that I do when the benefits of compatability with freebsd are repeatedly emphasized while the costs of incompatibility with the coreutils installed base are dismissed with something along the lines of "we'll see what breaks". (If the costs of incompatibility are really that low in this case, why would compatability be a worthwhile goal in this case?) I do wish that more users had noticed the change earlier and that we're fairly deep into a mess, but it's not always easy to see the impact of what seems like a relatively minor patch. I do appreciate that the new version printed some diagnostics when the change was triggered, as that certainly helped call attention to scripts which were impacted. >With the above in place for the next coreutils release, >then debian could remove its noisy patch. I would certainly align with that, and the sooner the better to decrease the chances that different distributions handle this in different ways or we get to the point of having to release in an interim state. If you commit a final version I'll apply that patch if the next release isn't imminent. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 29 16:44:35 2024 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2024 21:44:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33592 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUZQh-0006QS-JY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 16:44:35 -0500 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:56140) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUZQf-0006Q9-AI for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 16:44:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4AE3C011BD4; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10032) with ESMTP id 4yK4Mh6nGZ5S; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F41823C011BD7; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:44:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu F41823C011BD7 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1706564658; bh=HP1AMmZE1AI8JGs4juePpy4UBiU+szLHt5wE1S46IEQ=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=KQJdKwpk0XbzU13FvX7gBQegNZQLatJzsU2iHRb+30VRNpXV6UxNq4huUM+4fQoor UklEfKqIqeTo4q60QSvw0XTYs3Lxc/fyAZYBO9QHXibm99zClyxkIoYlCyF3BXeBtv KJKn/LOW2x30gz0zQX6zgKWdhj9krapUCN+v/9I8iP9Zw+iem/2j6Kn/N6wNpSO6nR V1UdiNZEEDg1zTzIM3vE7ExtL1PEP+JrKs+dDJOpr1iF1PMZGaLuQ3tKWEoKCw/6MT TGp7SRgW+ERdwDSkIxznZKoYSzM+9cyhJ6bXmq/xmzABD6p0dymg5koE3rwzNQO5TV yq1sDw95zcbVA== X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10026) with ESMTP id cShd1ajFsp-l; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.179.64.200] (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BEEF23C011BD4; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:44:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <17742009-6e7c-4ee3-a6cb-afd4440195ee@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:44:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , Michael Stone References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 1/29/24 08:11, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > Right, that's why I'm still leaning towards my proposal in the last mai= l. Well, I won't insist on doing nothing; however, the proposal needs=20 ironing out and now's a good time to do it before installing changes. > =C2=A0 - revert to previous exit success -n behavior > =C2=A0 - document -n as deprecated > =C2=A0 - provide --update=3Dnoclobber to give exit failure functionali= ty So --update=3Dnoclobber would differ in meaning from the deprecated-in-9.= 5=20 --no-clobber, but would agree in meaning with 9.4 --no-clobber? That=20 sounds pretty confusing for future users. (And a nit: why should one=20 spelling have a hyphen but the other doesn't?) > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - BTW, it probably makes sense to print a diagnosti= c for each=20 > skipped file here > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 as it's exceptional behavior, for which= we're exiting with=20 > failure for. Coreutils 9.4 cp -n already does that, no? So I'm not sure what's being=20 proposed here. $ touch a b $ cp -n a b; echo $? cp: not replacing 'b' 1 > =C2=A0 - the existing --update=3Dnone provides the exit success functi= onality It seems to me that this proposal conflates two questions: * What rules should cp use to decide whether to update a destination? * When cp decides not to update a destination, what should it do? Exit=20 with nonzero status? Output a diagnostic? Both? Neither? Aren't these independent axes? If so, shouldn't they have independent=20 options? For example, since we have --update=3Dolder, shouldn't there be = a=20 way to say "I want to copy A to B only if B is older than A, and I want=20 the exit status to be zero only if A was copied to B"? 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[86.40.129.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id p9-20020a05600c468900b0040f02114906sm1679755wmo.16.2024.01.30.03.18.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Jan 2024 03:18:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:18:12 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Paul Eggert , Michael Stone References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> <17742009-6e7c-4ee3-a6cb-afd4440195ee@cs.ucla.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: <17742009-6e7c-4ee3-a6cb-afd4440195ee@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 29/01/2024 21:44, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 1/29/24 08:11, Pádraig Brady wrote: > >> Right, that's why I'm still leaning towards my proposal in the last mail. > > Well, I won't insist on doing nothing; however, the proposal needs > ironing out and now's a good time to do it before installing changes. > > >>   - revert to previous exit success -n behavior >>   - document -n as deprecated >>   - provide --update=noclobber to give exit failure functionality > > So --update=noclobber would differ in meaning from the deprecated-in-9.5 > --no-clobber, but would agree in meaning with 9.4 --no-clobber? That > sounds pretty confusing for future users. (And a nit: why should one > spelling have a hyphen but the other doesn't?) That's a fair point; just avoid "no-clobber" entirely. We could choose a new name so. How about --update=none-fail >>     - BTW, it probably makes sense to print a diagnostic for each >> skipped file here >>       as it's exceptional behavior, for which we're exiting with >> failure for. > > Coreutils 9.4 cp -n already does that, no? So I'm not sure what's being > proposed here. > > $ touch a b > $ cp -n a b; echo $? > cp: not replacing 'b' > 1 Sorry I got confused between your suggestion of added diagnostics, and FreeBSD's silent behavior here. Looks like we just keep the existing behavior of diagnosing 'not replacing' iff exiting with failure. >>   - the existing --update=none provides the exit success functionality > > It seems to me that this proposal conflates two questions: > > * What rules should cp use to decide whether to update a destination? > > * When cp decides not to update a destination, what should it do? Exit > with nonzero status? Output a diagnostic? Both? Neither? > > Aren't these independent axes? If so, shouldn't they have independent > options? For example, since we have --update=older, shouldn't there be a > way to say "I want to copy A to B only if B is older than A, and I want > the exit status to be zero only if A was copied to B"? Well they're not entirely independent. It's more appropriate to output a diagnostic if exiting failure, and POSIX also advises along the same lines. We also have --verbose to control diagnostics somewhat for the non failure case. So we now have the proposed change as: - revert -n to old silent success behavior - document -n as deprecated - Leave --update=none as is (will be synonymous with -n) - Provide --update=none-fail to diagnose and exit failure thanks, Pádraig. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jan 30 13:31:51 2024 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2024 18:31:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36709 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUstj-0001WA-GC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 13:31:51 -0500 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:59312) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUstg-0001Vu-GF for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 13:31:49 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FFC3C011BDE; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 10:31:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10032) with ESMTP id TGSVFnGY6aW3; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 10:31:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805243C013279; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 10:31:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 805243C013279 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1706639492; bh=71/L2UZlwlU7l0L7Z3EJCS8EA2JdowGCxf81wNo6izg=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=JLHTy3ORAk8HNKz7NmVt8zeAC22T8DR0os+Nx17ufFqewuq1B+mwVOy4AyQ5apjF2 Akc6qDNEz2r2MgKKX8bPAgYBp7620XbRYsjEgCNOLHA12Qlk2NSpl9/GjaOEouG6cb eWZ5d8KAC9dhvpx0kYqvAtnqF5AWpetbklbyS2MwhOzz0fdVsD455lVbKkCEi6e6tC IMXENgtVq4WpDyw+RIiw982tZ52qGT8CAh8SJ2HcRJC/9U8Xz3P7l58I+0AwiK1N+y 7GQ9xingJCk4DDYByJ6WnfBdo+Amiz3cbOOuDaC1xQaXHhr2iDks2QrGI/ci4UNUgL ZLWooqwUzoTbw== X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10026) with ESMTP id YZs8URxquSi1; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 10:31:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.254.12] (unknown [47.148.192.211]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C5E43C011BDE; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 10:31:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 10:31:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , Michael Stone References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> <17742009-6e7c-4ee3-a6cb-afd4440195ee@cs.ucla.edu> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2024-01-30 03:18, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > So we now have the proposed change as: >=20 > =C2=A0 - revert -n to old silent success behavior > =C2=A0 - document -n as deprecated > =C2=A0 - Leave --update=3Dnone as is (will be synonymous with -n) > =C2=A0 - Provide --update=3Dnone-fail to diagnose and exit failure Thanks, that's a better proposal, but I still see several opportunities=20 for confusion. If I understand things correctly, cp --update=3Dnone is not synonymous=20 with the proposed (i.e., old-behavior) cp -n, because -n overrides=20 previous -i options but --update=3Dnone does not. Also, -n overrides=20 either previous or following --update=3DUPDATE options, but --update=3Dno= ne=20 overrides only previous --update=3DUPDATE options. (For what it's worth,=20 FreeBSD -n overrides Some of this complication seems to be for consistency with how mv=20 behaves with -f, -i, -n, and --update, and similarly with how rm behaves=20 with -f, -i, -I, and --interactive. To be honest I don't quite=20 understand the reason for all this complexity, which suggests it should=20 be documented somewhere (the manual?) if it isn't already. This raises more questions: * If we deprecate cp -n, what about mv -n? FreeBSD mv -n behaves like=20 Coreutils mv -n: it silently does nothing and exits successfully. So=20 there's no compatibility argument for changing mv -n's behavior.=20 However, whatever --update option we add to cp (to output a diagnostic=20 and exit with failure) should surely also be added to mv, to aid=20 consistency. * Should cp --update=3Dnone be changed so that it really behaves like the= =20 old cp -n, in that it overrides other options in ways that differ from=20 how the other --update=3DUPDATE options behave? I'm leaning toward "no" a= s=20 this adds complexity that I don't see the use for. * If we don't change cp --update=3Dnone's overriding behavior, is it stil= l=20 OK to tell users to substitute --update=3Dnone for -n even though the two= =20 options are not exactly equivalent? I'm leaning towards "yes" but would=20 like other opinions. 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[86.40.129.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id j23-20020a05600c489700b0040e4733aecbsm1669518wmp.15.2024.01.31.06.06.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 31 Jan 2024 06:06:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 14:06:08 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Paul Eggert , Michael Stone References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> <17742009-6e7c-4ee3-a6cb-afd4440195ee@cs.ucla.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 30/01/2024 18:31, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 2024-01-30 03:18, Pádraig Brady wrote: >> So we now have the proposed change as: >> >>   - revert -n to old silent success behavior >>   - document -n as deprecated >>   - Leave --update=none as is (will be synonymous with -n) >>   - Provide --update=none-fail to diagnose and exit failure > > Thanks, that's a better proposal, but I still see several opportunities > for confusion. > > If I understand things correctly, cp --update=none is not synonymous > with the proposed (i.e., old-behavior) cp -n, because -n overrides > previous -i options but --update=none does not. Also, -n overrides > either previous or following --update=UPDATE options, but --update=none > overrides only previous --update=UPDATE options. (For what it's worth, > FreeBSD -n overrides Good point. Well -n is a protection mechanism really, so should override. Since --update now incorporates a protection mode, it should also override I think. > Some of this complication seems to be for consistency with how mv > behaves with -f, -i, -n, and --update, and similarly with how rm behaves > with -f, -i, -I, and --interactive. To be honest I don't quite > understand the reason for all this complexity, which suggests it should > be documented somewhere (the manual?) if it isn't already. To my mind the most protective option takes precedence. So from least to most that would be -f -n --update=none --update=none-fail -i So the main consideration there is that -n should not override --update=none-fail > This raises more questions: > > * If we deprecate cp -n, what about mv -n? FreeBSD mv -n behaves like > Coreutils mv -n: it silently does nothing and exits successfully. So > there's no compatibility argument for changing mv -n's behavior. > However, whatever --update option we add to cp (to output a diagnostic > and exit with failure) should surely also be added to mv, to aid > consistency. Yes I agree. > * Should cp --update=none be changed so that it really behaves like the > old cp -n, in that it overrides other options in ways that differ from > how the other --update=UPDATE options behave? I'm leaning toward "no" as > this adds complexity that I don't see the use for. > > * If we don't change cp --update=none's overriding behavior, is it still > OK to tell users to substitute --update=none for -n even though the two > options are not exactly equivalent? I'm leaning towards "yes" but would > like other opinions. Yes I think we should still give that advice to deprecate -n, if we ensure that -n does not override --update=none=fail. thanks, Pádraig From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 31 19:36:36 2024 Received: (at 62572) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Feb 2024 00:36:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39341 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rVL4G-00047H-DB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 19:36:36 -0500 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:43918) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rVL4E-000472-0G for 62572@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 19:36:35 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946B03C00E8B0; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10032) with ESMTP id jDQvi7Fupvcx; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312153C00E400; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:36:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 312153C00E400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1706747777; bh=gbRRO6T4fXQ6q0kvcL2HE8KqSfQ5VoT5G7yM8es5oAc=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=db3BicwaH5GEyUpfsBGUfdGLh+PtVqlwjGiGerQxtSRqtv1iLI1ptGeOIAi91sV24 4cD34vdCdfSwA9FsimKDeMf+Kd0fHTonnI6SUKStpMMmX4RsHz1FLc1dgI0fpVidJl DEmn3YuRSheRCsgaXRfct3yxycqcqP5pfLtAMZO6FJ1m8h5jZmNqLyYpYqUPc890rX PD0jOyMgr+ha1RbLyqucAmLropY3z+26zl4ZoahMmfLflHX8CDjT9p58k5Yf1EkD0E NIDKmqdFzI3OzlNr/J8aMnWGJkqF66to5+SvU5PEZsQJtwV54+1J/2AxsY3Z1kgVJL P/303aA+G8PAA== X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10026) with ESMTP id FGup-g9IjCV8; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.179.64.200] (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0758E3C00E8B0; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:36:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <594ba962-ed16-4191-b899-83e8d09d3354@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:36:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= , Michael Stone References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> <17742009-6e7c-4ee3-a6cb-afd4440195ee@cs.ucla.edu> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 1/31/24 06:06, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > To my mind the most protective option takes precedence. That's not how POSIX works with mv -i and mv -f. The last flag wins. I=20 assume this is so that people can have aliases or shell scripts that=20 make -i the default, but you can override by specifying -f on the=20 command line. E.g., in mymv: #!/bin/sh mv -i "$@" then "mymv -f a b" works as expected. Wouldn't a similar argument apply to cp's --update options? Or perhaps we should play it safe, and reject any combination of=20 --update etc. options that are incompatible. We can always change our=20 mind later and say that later options override earlier ones, or do=20 something else that's less conservative. 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[86.40.129.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 20-20020a05600c229400b004120675e057sm3370960wmf.0.2024.02.24.14.13.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 24 Feb 2024 14:13:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------yH0ReM9QZ7rdlDrXI0JJb7V0" Message-ID: <42b57d84-b774-abda-c754-7dfae3aef38a@draigBrady.com> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 22:13:42 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#62572: Bug#1058752: bug#62572: cp --no-clobber behavior has changed Content-Language: en-US To: Paul Eggert , Michael Stone References: <3225f182-5eda-be18-e6ce-43b4b7967f2c@draigBrady.com> <08b5b5cf-6ede-4a58-b0b3-0abf3fce157d@cs.ucla.edu> <6c4fc819-5fbb-45c3-a4cf-f6cc8528f299@bernhard-voelker.de> <69628008-b583-5d15-3a57-338050a140ad@draigBrady.com> <97a405c2-474c-4665-a9cb-93abda8a446c@cs.ucla.edu> <50daeb1e-9529-c615-b8ba-9165214cdcdb@draigBrady.com> <17742009-6e7c-4ee3-a6cb-afd4440195ee@cs.ucla.edu> <594ba962-ed16-4191-b899-83e8d09d3354@cs.ucla.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: <594ba962-ed16-4191-b899-83e8d09d3354@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62572 Cc: 1058752@bugs.debian.org, Bernhard Voelker , 62572@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------yH0ReM9QZ7rdlDrXI0JJb7V0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 01/02/2024 00:36, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 1/31/24 06:06, Pádraig Brady wrote: >> To my mind the most protective option takes precedence. > > That's not how POSIX works with mv -i and mv -f. The last flag wins. I > assume this is so that people can have aliases or shell scripts that > make -i the default, but you can override by specifying -f on the > command line. E.g., in mymv: > > #!/bin/sh > mv -i "$@" > > then "mymv -f a b" works as expected. > > Wouldn't a similar argument apply to cp's --update options? > > Or perhaps we should play it safe, and reject any combination of > --update etc. options that are incompatible. We can always change our > mind later and say that later options override earlier ones, or do > something else that's less conservative. OK I err'd on the side of changing as little as possible wrt precedence. -n still has precedence over any -u,--update option. That's simplest to understand (while not changing existing precedence), and shouldn't cause any practical issues. I plan to push the 2 attached patches for this tomorrow. thanks, Pádraig --------------yH0ReM9QZ7rdlDrXI0JJb7V0 Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-cp-mv-reinstate-that-n-exits-with-success-if-files-s.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename*0="0001-cp-mv-reinstate-that-n-exits-with-success-if-files-s.pa"; filename*1="tch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSA1MWNmNmYzZmYyNzI0NjdiYzljZGU3NWM0OGQwMjUwNDQ2YmU5YjljIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiA9P1VURi04P3E/UD1DMz1BMWRyYWlnPTIwQnJhZHk/ PSA8UEBkcmFpZ0JyYWR5LmNvbT4KRGF0ZTogU2F0LCAyNCBGZWIgMjAyNCAxOTo1MTo1NiAr MDAwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0ggMS8yXSBjcCxtdjogcmVpbnN0YXRlIHRoYXQgLW4gZXhp dHMgd2l0aCBzdWNjZXNzIGlmIGZpbGVzCiBza2lwcGVkCgoqIHNyYy9jcC5jIChtYWluKTog QWRqdXN0IHNvIHRoYXQgLW4gd2lsbCBleGl0IHN1Y2Nlc3MgaWYgc2tpcHBlZCBmaWxlcy4K KiBzcmMvbXYuYyAobWFpbik6IExpa2V3aXNlLgoqIGRvYy9jb3JldXRpbHMudGV4aSAoY3Ag aW52b2NhdGlvbik6IEFkanVzdCB0aGUgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gb2YgLW4uCiogc3JjL3N5c3Rl 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