From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 21 01:23:56 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Mar 2023 05:23:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57381 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1peUTT-0004GB-Ps for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 01:23:56 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:36734) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1peUTR-0004G3-HU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 01:23:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1peUTN-0001AE-VY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 01:23:52 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1peUTJ-0003AV-U5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 01:23:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1679376223; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=VJHGpTieWRjOcLX+3ooIEs+TwurGovkX3GiFGztblUk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Subject:Date; b=n4NmuSSO3OytXn3KZQgfdxjeJDhW4gLGHDxp1gFYRD7IatLc5xgqR/dEa8CkAIkP1 iTOYP5qXt1YaWLNV8hOYKhDiu8gmHpug+/HW80PLXlUmSPxPPZrJ5d/U4FZ/DGYDJq YLerCZGaVPsndTvQa8BfPeH5bZd8d2nGEre1B85kOuvSdm7XDTVtcsEax7eW9Eh4Gn uKOYeSBUDWOBqRZhi21OR16dUp63Kv8rhbqrn+K2O+6cuvKL0xzm4yP2ukGZ+g+nYT OiXnnfTJ03wz2ZydqqLWgq4iUF9IZ2fn7QwsuanbX9NwIsqVPMLT6WU0Z22aFVOxll VOYVQ55N0Oa9A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([178.14.74.146]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N9cLR-1qaf4E27an-015H0s for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 06:23:43 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 06:23:42 +0100 Message-ID: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ZgQcwH34QZ9pHuTFtslYu2RMA57vxQ89ha35LsdLoRYmYyIR/jp x49MpQf9YASkWMxACu1JhGWLwXvgkKZx96XggpuX56udth4dLWKnlivO4+O6rGZERkCQ9Ve DFVUQCSjhptRDlr4nKyF33yotf5RwvvzM2pmkm+qlTiLiji0oz4BcXnmMfDvT92UrJduD/z Q/6yHmoBZEenVqyDxmvOQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:85x/TRuHjdw=;hMieE295ypxKApaSkAshHEEI345 7wRuicK91uuCOmm6EiWhC2VG2Zz8Ccy2oCnOVs3iKf0+K9uPWofxl7zq9OCMdbd16JUjnGd6j d1ZCFI8BPhi8soX6VJfQC0ial/g5Wckcv+5+nlH3SyoUP0XVurgkUk/Fnehn38NPbZzsejnBO wOvXDpqG8hvIvpwgZqs9z0osObf4596pym1okrOu/bxXBw534rfeBUwuXn/MIJgK8Uq09D6MF bhXV/0wlJbg1t7X8C85n/P3+Oi13Zj0rh/ZLx4KHsMllinJ1KuKxR3TNQYmeQg9IObynzF25f vQxSfzHfhZEGaMJRUEVmG4U4CuAF/lP9FE9XbcmAMdaNErHM3kuulfbAUMWvCXUcJIHxZ5TNj 14nOK3MZ2/hpH9lE4Dala+UTOBztSsWzdsCab9rYiIsfgAqlUOnJk4l9wZ4rA9JSoU1MJS4YA rBpEClcvn8qQ7dkOlBHLOmTwoan0CuLSr76+8pGxPTxUhH9qewWF/ts8EGC6vniGzUiwnoLf7 i90DdPpppbm2B0xpvppIzKDlRoVrU8U6CHJgeX/9/vAiNHJOVLWkvTGjqAeR1FN5y311dRvG0 AkNdFt2hcncLjhoJM0qWo8r16Du3wJW+5x1aOrkWs9tsbQy5eoBkZRs+GJMOKMVdqcL3ulmuL w1l6uEFBwaHp8Cve/CFpxoZusm3otJMFkHC+Zrj6JBJ60nXZnzE5Ulm/nBhcPU8LSOX85RRM/ HZeyDsFJRfph4DoOunT9HgXFIsfbn0bsBuUYZeg1+IG70A6kNewR8wdM+iepbCY51I8NplUGT DTU21Gwyb0F9ecbr8CpPK0UEy1wjAxj9kvXjS4C9ecFjkOTk1MOmub34F6fqEqPg4CzzcxD3B YqwPQqTfDn6+z4xXIBrcpwSozg7MRGmy4x+sNfKLc753gxFpRKJ823Bu7iWXj9xEJgEc9wRkE I+/QJdTh7j883Upym4Qs/xEZcXA= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.3; envelope-from=michael_heerdegen@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) Hello, I have some small suggestions to make (info "(emacs) Bugs") even more complete. The first I want to say is that, while we are telling a lot of (technical) details, we are missing a bit to tell what creating a bug report means practically, how it works in general. I mean simple things like these that are trivial for us but still not clear to everybody: Basically everything works by using Email. As the author of the bug report you'll be sent a CC copy of every message that belongs to that bug [it is important to let people know that e.g. a question of somebody is not necessarily addressed to the bug author]. You can reply normally to any of those messages. If you do so please be sure to keep the address that has been assigned to the bug (it looks like 12345@debbugs.gnu.org) in the list of recipients before sending your reply because else the bug tracker will not receive your message [lot's of people do this wrong!]. [...] parts are comments from me about the text, not part of the text. Then I wonder if we could say that it is helpful when the author loads relevant Elisp files before recording an Elisp backtrace [with a short explanation of what "relevant" means, and how that can be achieved]. Hmm - I think that's already it for now. You'll probably want to find a better wording. TIA, Michael. In GNU Emacs 30.0.50 (build 27, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2023-03-20 built on drachen Repository revision: aa54a24570e526b5438264caacf405a2370ba9d3 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12011000 System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 21 10:21:11 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Mar 2023 14:21:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60111 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pecrP-0005Gl-53 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 10:21:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44038) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pecrM-0005GS-20 for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 10:21:09 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pecrG-0004MY-GR; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 10:21:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=udapCOwQQI2xt+fCbhL5PPUTfDQf364PsZv/nnN259c=; b=lbMeUWtVmhn7 xfULRghh35J7d9N7pWoWKH4/BCSVGge36yEoul6yKzE9i2ctjgRwW5GJpLranGi5XrTwIOXwHE6ia Fzyjn0mPr/w7Dj6TjtsYbRQadGLINt4VB47t5z5hirvDi2uoTkqt80MFU2ELSgT89RX8s3S6wZq6a 3jWi6X4h0Y4Oive1z4NKrno9k9+Au2i2d9S248Rf+w8MkzS48L6+vseAs0N8wwwJKk9NTQMTyecOI 4/4RTrx0Q1sNF8dy1hjSINItFBQWuQ3X8STjv7ZyThXHw95v7nu02nN2cAwZOvarYrDd6X0+pHv/n dyCltjDXjTb1dLjgmtClDg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pecrF-0004cR-Nc; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 10:21:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:21:12 +0200 Message-Id: <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Tue, 21 Mar 2023 06:23:42 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 06:23:42 +0100 > > I have some small suggestions to make (info "(emacs) Bugs") even more > complete. > > The first I want to say is that, while we are telling a lot of > (technical) details, we are missing a bit to tell what creating a bug > report means practically, how it works in general. I mean simple things > like these that are trivial for us but still not clear to everybody: "Bugs" is a catch-all chapter with almost no contents of its own; all the real contents is in its sections. Are your comments to that chapter, or specifically to one of its sections, such as "Checklist"? It is hard to think about your comments without understanding to which part(s) of the manual are they alluding. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 21 22:21:56 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Mar 2023 02:21:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33095 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1peo6t-0007Ql-TD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 22:21:56 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:43663) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1peo6q-0007QV-Jg for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 22:21:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1679451705; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=tSUA8be6Q0zTPG+fyGIXBSifYKYmGMD3xo8HathWCos=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=EDGHuOQmSmvj5HFvg/ew8wLs32jsZArcd/j3W9YN6ufkFQcZowVVNUDJaMYLRb2Ig oK0dJQFh4G1f9YFoVJPasbxTfjaPX8Q0dApzQk8ZAdK9trMIjARBdsUoraHMheP6ca 7720kWrNqCp35baKnugwWaZsN5e8Oo3qUdQPiYPejdrhSyPF/C8IlW5szhnumOGtpE lfFiWAglmQGyU3XFTqkO779CpLDZH3toClPvvGUtM3eNd2b2KZT4dgIEK6g83r+sPv Fl65rS13MnAKGLqCJNoc7mQlVgAfvBszWQ304oRxd145l87gy3+N5fwtqgaI/h09SD TgkKGAa8bjDDw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([178.14.74.146]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MIya8-1ptatv2wxe-00KNj9; Wed, 22 Mar 2023 03:21:45 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") In-Reply-To: <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:21:12 +0200") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 03:21:44 +0100 Message-ID: <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:sz7+qeYy/gUpdgRQ/nVndus9B6bFMTZqQwhBiO3dY3yGXy2/1K0 9cba1kx7LvIck34hyGCMr0Rp+TvDtHiU2bkarA/M3tWgwm8Ko6XMXo0M6qPbRhpGItxX84C e3P/Lmxc1716TiRjidIXKu6lpNx/oXfKnOgv1DhdzNR4Wxi0BQ+5wbdV8/ZVmLgWOAOleM2 N8kstNHBJbayw5IxbBwlg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:CESK0VYAacM=;FXoBY1jN0gX6hGu62hu41QTBKZ8 f5TFs1x12rLxrej4X52t/ONgelcRpcREwoOiSIqaP12JYT10pSeQWymlqz1fIVw5yx4qPQg0l mc9C1/kmv34EfjM2WAFGRkjR3YOPlgtNQXfgIyXf8Va4+nOA0Q1vVLQHnCTN7WIwKqLpsQQeg 47LhHETSTAYpC7tizHg234oV+0QFCuSOA/srowOu6galEiI1QqyRcUowcfO4wX6wM2kQPm+hD TsWQ+GKNjFnPK+XZphB28UxLy9MCy2qRHUVhfcm/E9/IUaYNJs1ykJGx+4XzYo0qDPaym8lsA CtzJCgvhx1COQ4UB1x0HjPcqn9TsAjDTyVdmdig9/CFUlUoUyJY2PK49Ypb18tYVWNGx5YHLy 5NY6QKOowdsgxQvpuwFRtqGv+lLIJVRKqRhnP6sK8m9CsQBe7Qj9oA2mVnRVG0s1ixnQMrIA6 zjQvtl6tmA2zOQ4bMlNmwrUyxMJS1AMSvsTTPFFDJMC7hu7B4GIfaH2pG5g5BGedKpyRgn2Ak DoZFQ202CxPSPH6gGRRN1b6CWm2wl9TgwYIRm5vC7MXfaw5NQliBsabhieLS1fii3rArkd5Cw NoelSuNtlvrGx58E+bAHUaOSQ7KbyyvWdn+lrVjlQ0kvTToKx2IaVke1sBQxyTr1W/ojNy6py M10S+vNBGlSI6WIxx4PsWaKggxQkdWaZr1h4I0wBI+zLe4beMUNz98MG6eyI9O+2d4pBDwn4y AkYFYmhe2tPeK4hfuVnGQsgNCKnWkxNFPtbLVkZp4sQD1Ag4y6QmCTfpxJkz5M5pnUTochF89 HzQt4fvGgut+yofUFyLpt7pQ/C8l0fuMHxb4KBhD5jDcnlMc/0dBaHbdfR00MEsCDhfQHw0VT ubMTI+mqrG2mruLvKt4LM5fHe5jcxnHP88bnLspIecerngMAmdIphfyb93itHLsIMqGkK+xke bc7M4j1lSwMT8HDfsgg8WIVfvVE= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > The first I want to say is that, while we are telling a lot of > > (technical) details, we are missing a bit to tell what creating a bug > > report means practically, how it works in general. I mean simple things > > like these that are trivial for us but still not clear to everybody: > > "Bugs" is a catch-all chapter with almost no contents of its own; all > the real contents is in its sections. Are your comments to that > chapter, or specifically to one of its sections, such as "Checklist"? > It is hard to think about your comments without understanding to which > part(s) of the manual are they alluding. I'm just missing this kind of information in general. This was not intended as a comment to a specific chapter. But I think this would fit best (and maybe only) into (info "(emacs) Checklist") indeed. Maybe we could just insert a short summary text like mine as new third paragraph? Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 23 09:34:40 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Mar 2023 13:34:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37543 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pfL5U-0007Pr-G9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:34:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45186) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pfL5S-0007Pd-Cw for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:34:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pfL5N-0001gG-1A; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:34:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=uxtT2yI7L6ss7d7hSmJTDU47j7OnY5lkBPWadJQ3JcE=; b=rHc8rnPrlKMT 9xinpWaxRyzH7azpihP2P20Rz3EkgPk9LrrdqaJW/xn+I/jHXk0YPPydIj1AQloM3Laa9d9eXbc77 JXxgpn44dps12pWi3iw95xGymEXDNYkosLfxdyfqvD1broYKt+IpEBhghdhN48ocnZifnazL20wcs /YENs1y/rW/TrUXuCqKxQyM/5LvmTIvsPj4E3zUKGauqaNv9TDFZ8QD54tYcxuc09DqwsTdHrR+9E TJdZB/Kz0TK7bfSEygup6MWNvN6KKOkfNgUccfmJWIcN238J5cAPwbfRYDE4e5B9B3sKGoLZZXeqr hiuXczYX4s3lu03n6/XbmQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pfL5D-0008Jl-JC; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:34:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 15:34:40 +0200 Message-Id: <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Wed, 22 Mar 2023 03:21:44 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 03:21:44 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > The first I want to say is that, while we are telling a lot of > > > (technical) details, we are missing a bit to tell what creating a bug > > > report means practically, how it works in general. I mean simple things > > > like these that are trivial for us but still not clear to everybody: > > > > "Bugs" is a catch-all chapter with almost no contents of its own; all > > the real contents is in its sections. Are your comments to that > > chapter, or specifically to one of its sections, such as "Checklist"? > > It is hard to think about your comments without understanding to which > > part(s) of the manual are they alluding. > > I'm just missing this kind of information in general. This was not > intended as a comment to a specific chapter. > > But I think this would fit best (and maybe only) into > (info "(emacs) Checklist") indeed. > > Maybe we could just insert a short summary text like mine as new third > paragraph? I've made some changes in that section, please take a look. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 29 11:19:12 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Mar 2023 15:19:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54732 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1phXZv-0003Rs-VU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:19:12 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:38875) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1phXZt-0003Re-Sr for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:19:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1680103144; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=B+VA9hh2pFRKgl22XaScfBzd2Utu4/1jCGdifrI549w=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=wTnrWAJe3a16E863Uec5kGOGYQQYLQbDtaD6zf/TwyhP+05IXlp6Byw1j5zEU73C8 0SSMPlVzQnr9DFdmmMT+PcHosWofVf1ArTpL8M7oZ4T3WbWHa/flppZsDrk9FLl3f/ 0ViANBFBVVRclp6GbI8U77CIT7YqwIQEUkms2vA0FOXPpMJvQxxFB6p60I4Me1k556 7s1jxy1M7fcUk1gjXhAIsFhsWDGy+peFhaWY6OyKhnaBwVLazPgB2y/KoYuxo5oIYI N7Lpl8rdlEx2fTpy1Ny13VTVz+H/43V2o7IRdCj8ipvMNXvyDBt8/OWkgX6UtGrWTw ePf1u2r7VwtrQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([178.14.74.146]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MDvDU-1pXffo0l1g-009wqQ; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:19:04 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") In-Reply-To: <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 23 Mar 2023 15:34:40 +0200") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:19:03 +0200 Message-ID: <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:yTCfMNDNQMDELBsIHLTwsESXeQVzyckljQFCOmDgI1w+4M7b1BR sMPDpxAw+iI2EuV8MRUIIiVkMDl4usOKTPpxmZLFOtRzIwuMiK3bNPanUmjojP4EVjbmUSl MUHwJCb1/zRQXMBUgqBVlwoJmti57POpVw7+D3Ja3Cz1ySGLyPc7GyP+c1BDj3CcuT4dc/e oNnidoPAEb7laHiYUvJ3A== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:Ev6c/NHfyWY=;xoQ9LgMsXZYd2h49I8nQcOuPnwi LGxT0Qb6zw5lZAHDS+N4fHqCeLjwp47l17V4NLko6kGy5o1nLEYWbcN5txnn40/jm4IWOfOl5 GCtdreHL/VvF4r2Y/QsBtzQaJ4YZ7glcvpH2AYCbItZCA01FoHD0QWF7GFkICachnRe80Pg4l YJ4BxS/HKWrgf5Xro+2ahjTOkVFsezQtlZbx4lxZIdR4GaxT2eTgzRJVnF7WD1CHAk6MLcnM6 Fj3TPo5UaRDiZDvx7w/V36DtPUtyYzfWKmo9Dv28pqXpckzHsyy4EsKO58DY4Rqh6WpPj8k64 zjh75s42hB96AbuD/O+KkTxX3eQXREPaL8Wz40o2XW6l3KrscfW/fiyVUycDzJTYPInSwrWu9 jTAuKZWdVNDQwgQJKqhxhFq6ZmxFce9PF9B0vIbuxcvr804uXlK2oLiLhZZqjhVIs8av9Ubyl fTO4wduLL/Fxdq9OBep2DmDFwIZDnarqvEBlszgm2B9ctcAjmtuCWrSPeUu6WXJSl4+rlGQtR D926DER/LF4RAGjpCG/Y6Tu92ga4ftocxG8HgPSFIZFSDABGGjQ9mqUL1Lk9kAP0usHc1ypU0 XGWkr94+npLbVn2xl1WNyfrB5c1v5ZlpP8EE1SbyjduozadFhD8cW/DeWGEZqAkvxlqQromX8 PLLnQEQJeLjLzetPOUldnp1i4lqI5cQmlPyqXyfuAM7oBc5Iw953ZlVB1vGVIaks0XHqcBH2v 6evwlhqT380J1mil2JLjbWacsa0H1HZxn2FxxDMcm6vSJprchzFGKPXzIYw3kydVZ2RSV+GdK G13vcOftSbTidetQs/8NPWSmo6QkZHw4niz3IK37cXWh1qRHsCbHLlMJXjrQ0koXN5ZeQf8pf 8kLEGzw0ih1ij88t4wCK13dAlsZN2wh6SmTelmyyspVdYm24WVfeVk8jPvfVsrComVdmDoHlM hVeGFS0AQouZR8D/v4KOSBPiZM4= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > I've made some changes in that section, please take a look. Wow - quite a few! I've read the whole chapter again and I found nothing that I could complain about. You also have worked in all my suggestions - apart from the "if you know how please load relevant Elisp source files before capturing an Elisp backtrace" one - intentionally? Apart from that everything looks good, but I'm not able to have an opinion about some things (like the document structure). I hope that the requirement to read the chapter carefully and follow all the rules does not scare people too much (my fear is that the competent people are more likely to be scared than the incompetent but self-competent). Dunno if we could try even more to encourage people without tempting others to spread nonsense. Maybe we could add a sentence like "If it is sure that you have found a bug, of course we want to hear about it even if you are not able to follow all of the advices strictly for some reason. Still, please do your best to take them into account so that our developers are not required to spend more time than necessary to understand your report." Anyway, thanks for revising the chapter and for integrating my suggestions. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 29 11:52:57 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Mar 2023 15:52:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54777 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1phY6a-0004Kk-Qc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:52:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56622) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1phY6Y-0004KX-SR for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:52:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1phY6T-0003sJ-8o; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:52:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=FNpMX8YRdbYmv4DgcQ/m3THKckFuH6BwlRvxffcBtxk=; b=OtjKcDaFGdae OfdMry5edxYwxZXaqhpuIvmxZhVRYoZD4HgOrQUWKBZXy7gWPXXq4bDISa3uqJA3TUFKWkfz/iJx0 fMN36kksHBOcGZVnnKp/RrvUolxDE+DXSMkKio9DHC8daGL3cPxwHSZ9HmMlVdCc7TwoAeBu31Kvg ggQ9jLFqszf5KZtmHLd4UVwRc2LyXQkLoRTmBco/caAEjkgmpPNgTMoh01XKmG34tGmdg0WT0g53g i0Ga7PYx5LAa7DU/Wm6ht8IFnKJph4vuhLxba2a6YtPInl75+mVRH9qXgc1T+Jy4Uhaazsyx40toX 31ugWLRj0hTasIVCR1CMSw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1phY6R-0007r5-Rw; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:52:48 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 18:52:57 +0300 Message-Id: <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:19:03 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:19:03 +0200 > > I've read the whole chapter again and I found nothing that I could > complain about. You also have worked in all my suggestions - apart from > the "if you know how please load relevant Elisp source files before > capturing an Elisp backtrace" one - intentionally? Maybe not. Can you tell to which part of the text this was related? > Apart from that everything looks good, but I'm not able to have an > opinion about some things (like the document structure). I've at least explained why the structure is as it is: it follows some logic, which is now explicitly described, I hope. > I hope that the requirement to read the chapter carefully and follow all > the rules does not scare people too much (my fear is that the competent > people are more likely to be scared than the incompetent but > self-competent). Admittedly, the text is very detailed. I've removed what I thought was outdated and/or unneeded, but it is still too long. However, what is there now is important, so all we can do is to have summaries for the impatient and order the stuff according to decreasing importance. If you can suggest some improvements in that direction, please do. > Dunno if we could try even more to encourage people > without tempting others to spread nonsense. Maybe we could add a > sentence like "If it is sure that you have found a bug, of course we > want to hear about it even if you are not able to follow all of the > advices strictly for some reason. Still, please do your best to take > them into account so that our developers are not required to spend more > time than necessary to understand your report." I'll take another look and see if there's a good place to say something like that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 30 12:08:19 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Mar 2023 16:08:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59258 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1phup0-0003jF-Lc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:08:18 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:48421) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1phuow-0003iz-Tc for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:08:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1680192488; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=3HjqRObbO1c3UlrSru0ucksEfLpDx95HahUNuI7pUkE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=Yn8tZgMmoFTeZ2ND0EhXsxKd306+J7vq+IgxmLdTf3fmhbF2NyH9IGv1h6BNQLwWP GdWvJr2vZ4kOr4gLuRzyJqlzUMEz10ZyDt/p3DeJ+8wl/DhFCi8V3ZVEnW1VDCLxSZ H/Hn8h9BIphTM8b7xMUMevJHwc4fyJ8Q6Fmplrw4lZT7GpCz/0hU9LPSxJFaSDCDUN 57w405ai0qiKGMG5WvKIkDsby3TvmLqIgB7H0MP8lcMG1m6d9Q/FnHXYn8O46+swRC 5RAs4gOzlme+I09wgJHI78lf9ientPlUq4rVwlmSipWepZhLUi/X0cT0aVbV33Rw9h BWiOGwSwR62Xw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([178.14.74.146]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MzCA3-1qdIT52zC7-00vp8n; Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:08:08 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") In-Reply-To: <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 29 Mar 2023 18:52:57 +0300") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:08:08 +0200 Message-ID: <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fZfX0uoEi+paWlQo6nQdqiXjk2zD8lSWlb/cBTFg3Sw+f67T0Vl 2XPJZ+fOHHeqsvRsWc3fmMNut6xNQrpcRiygMwVRd30yhX7tXYDGA/iHT8uQM7shaTEJjS0 80DuULss7+0XP6kgFYV5hOgW/WqKOaYLltzOwb9aInFqO3wQ/G+DHWrJ1dV51bBfAQx1iJL ymTu/LhNG5uai68J0fmWg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:sSjayoubLQ8=;Dzf+Rg7yLLa4ZDn0+HAI36iD5tI 3h3kjUgM/Saz/hayUtZQ7QJrlZgXiyB6oc9deNLZCQ6OH9LooBb9vcAHbihnjZRyJE6KraefO 4Vvcw7P4ihIqvh3d/hQatc8gVUki8YZiAejHERV8AtU9nvpCs6PdLTqCSg+Jm/Cpema6AFRdY FvfgUYPZDpGd6fczbAk1/5Fx54lm4yko9ghR/ICXsvo6PrsVZHSW7TG8AiqEvRljK3M9RlGwI ndIKin8bLvuUjXTm71D9Cx9OICdjQZ10rRdEXzfJuTIhi7DPvoc1A9cN4qG3Ns+dvZIhd62Xk fEUSEukTK/B7kVMqJmfb+i+EGEZcFdyJmjtOhN3R595v7osveUlgGf2xxU5uLrA464Yya4l/g fd1WnKzJMWrt3/ZpgG9lUiFGOJCFGMB1t56wP7RLFagoVvBl8vkNHzPz3J8Pqi20kt9qZrcEP 8G/lym8r2Nh1f7GAkPGQW8rhRzMRXaEWecDLI8hCAP50RYLjRfb9ZUeLJ07VeCig6twjlnJW0 3cx9QXnhPGnC6zoO/rcTxVKlfdxV3Bw4JEXzIhIucsG8OFwNXLR6inb3Dj5qauPd9rnQXbuQX vM5wNLySVN16WnYL8B1nKdK0zFkjP+xb/cLWNVHCKSxn3GmcK99y40Blr1LWM05/6vhIdo99h UB3mmXR+N5ocz4SN6tAoWDc4x6tJpZvz53OCOBJ0Ws+ioSo2M8EZi1+ew2qSO/FFJMSaSfSTy Opi9Fq0fx+p5dhTR8tEAd6daXjsxYE4FCAnHcE9L5YRfJV97m+iLPeREaelA3/bJHNt7dXQ2x yxrIie/vShvx8DGjuCl3k/l8QKSvRhBbj9Oaj+EEWTri24GeHl0FZnP4w5AbTLK1hS7RCgcI7 APr9eh54ht4Qx+Ml3eFueQYvF4H/lsGXWU9utL9OlygSb8tutUNgLObk7kMsbUIR0uSimP9qw MqePjA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > You also have worked in all my suggestions - apart from the "if you > > know how please load relevant Elisp source files before capturing an > > Elisp backtrace" one - intentionally? > > Maybe not. Can you tell to which part of the text this was related? That would be in (info "(emacs) Checklist") - the first item after "If you are willing to debug Emacs and provide additional information about the bug, here is some useful advice". And apart from mentioning loading related Elisp source files, I want to say that mentioning Edebug in this first paragraph: This causes the error to start the Lisp debugger, which shows you a backtrace. Copy the text of the debugger=E2=80=99s backtrace into the= bug report. *Note Edebug: (elisp)Edebug, for information on debugging Emacs Lisp programs with the Edebug package. is a bit unfortunate - we should either say that this is a different debugger, not to be confused with the one that pops up when enabling `debug-on-error', or just mention Edebug at a different place (in a footnote maybe?). Thanks, Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 01 06:02:17 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Apr 2023 10:02:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35563 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piY3s-0001Ny-Tu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 06:02:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37208) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1piY3r-0001Ni-Eh for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 06:02:16 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1piY3l-0004Xb-G9; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 06:02:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=gotSuhQUKojCrQGF+zqLojkFvSJcu4WTaxa5t4uU0co=; b=CiI4OIFcFm1zOXvh77zk FZt5c2bM6XUedRNBzfT5vsR6H8jJ2WErmNxEZSiD1C3sDr8xYfF+VSs+cihosBTXtbHoDulxkDJCr t8HiHcB4pxG/S3hwRyzccw2WaSGKPgF6Pz8nFxpIdxgWbXMU1G3N9s45zXXymADrEI6/uguh4LsxY I9u2k+cpOend4dib4ND+38UbcNKrK7/Ngqsr/EMmt1fULai0jhTJXpyNuhPE7wnIDdAtry7kFTcQG Cx6gGCWRa7DkMb1RqAZki4kj8Ev0XNtsYgNhm8R/yHj3yjwe+T+gNSskPImSzXHv3OIvHC1puDTyv WPanVDQl+7Oi6w==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1piY3l-0001cG-0K; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 06:02:09 -0400 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2023 13:02:25 +0300 Message-Id: <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:08:08 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:08:08 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > You also have worked in all my suggestions - apart from the "if you > > > know how please load relevant Elisp source files before capturing an > > > Elisp backtrace" one - intentionally? > > > > Maybe not. Can you tell to which part of the text this was related? > > That would be in (info "(emacs) Checklist") - the first item after "If > you are willing to debug Emacs and provide additional information about > the bug, here is some useful advice". I remember debating whether it was important enough to have in this already very long node. But since now that part is near the end, as a kind of "Advanced" section, I added that back. > And apart from mentioning loading related Elisp source files, I want to > say that mentioning Edebug in this first paragraph: > > This causes the error to start the Lisp debugger, which shows you a > backtrace. Copy the text of the debugger’s backtrace into the bug > report. *Note Edebug: (elisp)Edebug, for information on debugging > Emacs Lisp programs with the Edebug package. > > is a bit unfortunate - we should either say that this is a different > debugger, not to be confused with the one that pops up when enabling > `debug-on-error', or just mention Edebug at a different place (in a > footnote maybe?). I tried to make it more clear that this is a different debugger. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 19 22:26:51 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Jul 2023 02:26:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57373 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMJNT-0004Sc-5Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2023 22:26:51 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:34375) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMJNQ-0004SN-9p for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2023 22:26:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1689820002; x=1690424802; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=zEIPC6j4p/fovhTDdLvMrhDxpm8lQADl25k1MgALPdg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=SfDxfOv3TuAB7+eUyfOLXHv4otOZCmra5gMZq+0vLYbRjLGfQpJFcBoyrIG3E/ztPopJyXC tF4yVEySd1SPR2luZzEEbSuMoYt+UIYpY93ttvlzGHFmSHBUvp7XFLskn56pJUtEAIwMXVCTG yo9L0leH7iq4bSTe+fU1oAYXLPVzo9Uwls3niamW86CO7HNET6EyZU/8m901LapVAT9iaBvD2 ml1KzNnYSrAwTm8M1F6gWoHruPlUYWeavzSLibmwjjcS6jG2VlPerN1dnipW6jeXKv76OfPmF RtT2Hzkzb+d5KzIhHdNwAfyFktielI7WMpUcg7grwH65h3oTxgFA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.36]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MzkOL-1q0V8d1UYb-00vLsa; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 04:26:42 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") In-Reply-To: <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 01 Apr 2023 13:02:25 +0300") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 04:26:40 +0200 Message-ID: <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:OoAP/hAzZ5+f6cipMyrIMmQCdM4NiSWer08/G+JSlNSqkDxchcu RrxdzxUc3fK0AVJCgkL14dSta9+ZwfC1b0flVqv1OO4kCBdTv3KPU2m2gAtWP0g8vvG8Xol ki8K7IZWi7q9oOWd8/N1Rtdo1O9qmgoeNKj1O0qdycv4G8Wp30Slo0mdDTPcmHz5Fs/s2E3 YkAPx71WIgarpCCDk9xHQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:UieroNnKXHc=;V8iAASYLX/f9Ku3R+Rt8KeLfXGD YtUA6wEeVogLmDWt+sC5DaywAAXZVL5WegDMVLu+t4YWVDGTV+bu6KqlUMtlG1Ug9nnC74C5b 2AO1unRb+d326hL1loiNDYPzPsTRJAa3JEClD+2c7lfSi5VSuasdlYpG7x9Jla2jwEDh9NTNK YccerJ6mn0ZcaP5Otxr9ph83g9JULTKBd0E6Pa1htOwEc+b3XWBiRoarCGa6nGN4ZGFdES2ki olJnzWKkhakSbm10wR9BdukAAp9e25Tzi7tnfXJfB+OYbnCABQb2b5K2cM/RgpTFc8T3Fia+i 4oxxzkjvB6EMjqbcdZDaia0PJa7zkvIyP0rm9Go3PUzsQkhHhSdVgC9+A91GdDjNLNMCw3wVy +mgTWj6wz3IHVhqEh8L851GuDRAkGF59h2c/CNcuRqjMJQWavegWLfkbN1QFk+rUclT9Behkb u9AWBdJxciq7SzIiUdgFLtojG5jPuI0bkMMDHiST8F8pV6R5vHMP6DeESiyPW4/Dbho2Q0mka /HG4IEVlAJY58+A7K5Fx4OBME3F6VJY4bX9eQS2+R6lA+ZFWMfLOab0WcQmy2DbXbFaTbaVgR 9Cap+4h9hx57txY1QU8Y8hx2lsphTPLCZuGPjXO/R4hay8aY9kYvgFFBptuZy0aSLcTPycpMY EqU4QFysjcdDYILWLBq15s80PTKslKCAQ/q694E4BN1MXNaHTQVZrdxM0sltPmL9zYMOPnTLq nu1g9SDF1gTIjoQDBJ/k6gfb7tYJ1a9QJVi11KXXT6VNQBKigR+bgh9CuGa8LHoktaOLEnW4u Tx/c7RKRzp3gJ+eO9AyUqke7MzQJdNNNqfH6DnFYymU4g/y4nyjAOuF384mfQ5aUnJjs0M9t5 SIBCtKPQck27sqC/BbDgqcnvej+B7X91Oz+IOypaaztoHMS3B1QMNsjDIqvV24GHn0eFqla2a ptfdYQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > You also have worked in all my suggestions - apart from the "if > > > > you know how please load relevant Elisp source files before > > > > capturing an Elisp backtrace" one - intentionally? > I remember debating whether it was important enough to have in this > already very long node. But since now that part is near the end, as a > kind of "Advanced" section, I added that back. Ok, thanks. > > This causes the error to start the Lisp debugger, which shows > > you a backtrace. Copy the text of the debugger=E2=80=99s backtrace > > into the bug report. *Note Edebug: (elisp)Edebug, for > > information on debugging Emacs Lisp programs with the Edebug > > package. > >=20 > > is a bit unfortunate - we should either say that this is a different > > debugger, not to be confused with the one that pops up when enabling > > `debug-on-error', or just mention Edebug at a different place (in a > > footnote maybe?). > > I tried to make it more clear that this is a different debugger. Looks also good to me. So, thanks for the improvements. From my side I would say we are done here. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 20 01:01:39 2023 Received: (at 62320-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Jul 2023 05:01:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57481 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMLnG-0000fM-Ri for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 01:01:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59718) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMLnE-0000fA-TQ for 62320-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 01:01:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qMLn9-0000H9-9D; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 01:01:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=P88/1t08ECuVLuHP5siLo9F+yVc4dGV/FDNpojOwSBM=; b=owOasUv4vlYx wGvfm4BLvP+SIt6BAmUIet1OMJ/ceZbnE+lyfz4mPNicLV9w0ZDdpv6EtL6aO+Yirt2u7bfsz8mv7 RIA7RrjubP57fAx0KR26Fd6RbhkEKZsJ181UZVDTfpKF4zjxg5bLccmKONs+Bsd/Gy41u8mJ+l1tj xGznZGRs5FhC4jdY08v0FbbQmiQlROl3ASqfwP42TcIcPht0LAKU/gA5mJaNNd2HOgvOPHGLj7JVP 0HjLfWlXRlbERLqQ5ldSxlHK4MRWAI7lIL+/xTSKB6ME1hP7aXezBjDe91JvTpRdfj8NCmcAVPQ2N +WNYvDKmqcgg5V/LjGDn/g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qMLn8-0006KS-PJ; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 01:01:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 08:02:03 +0300 Message-Id: <835y6f41mc.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Thu, 20 Jul 2023 04:26:40 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320-done Cc: 62320-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: 62320@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 04:26:40 +0200 > > So, thanks for the improvements. From my side I would say we are done > here. Thanks, closing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 20 22:42:09 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jul 2023 02:42:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60276 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMg5p-0004v9-9Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 22:42:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35740) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMg5n-0004uv-No for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 22:42:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qMg5i-0000Zn-GZ; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 22:42:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=IYxPUBBPqT1SueOK0M0ozNn2WsPwtyEhhXYKhv27e/A=; b=JWIIKb83qC9N 41KOCc9b7oMfLE8bYwc1fWYFwx10xa57WEpBZeKeUMhNNgwaEIYQd/i8rR+IEx5ow2lkrhwtYW5ns ue91Tx1zcdoNBg9aJjLD0lFNpx27lY+SMGdoe2qq+uwrI0eYJGUoRx8ySzlGz/Lzyt7r4gpx+YAGD 1ELY6eFvZqEaHMdQFu6KQ/xFBha9B0UNYw9CAgT7bh4f8XhXLCmeH+Yd8lQgvQTNbdko8Bb5H33kV 3vDDKVCD0QGiDyzF5uJ39eK6ln4m8CyxmaywAC0sFRVHqMdNMCKofLj3X1oCHBWj6C7f0A8NoX2be 9vGrJg1x3hABZnP2JIO5QQ==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qMg5i-0003SD-5L; Thu, 20 Jul 2023 22:42:02 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Thu, 20 Jul 2023 04:26:40 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 22:42:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > > You also have worked in all my suggestions - apart from the "if > > > > > you know how please load relevant Elisp source files before > > > > > capturing an Elisp backtrace" one - intentionally? > > I remember debating whether it was important enough to have in this > > already very long node. But since now that part is near the end, as a > > kind of "Advanced" section, I added that back. When a node is very long, that doesn't mean we should leave out something useful. Rather, it suggests we should split it up into several shorter nodes. Info's navigation is helpful when nodes are reasonable in size. For long nodes, they are less helpful because they don't help users find interesting _parts_ of a long node. I suggest that any node over 50 lines long is a long node, so it is good to split th enode into several nodes that are reasonable in size. Or at least close. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 21 01:53:02 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jul 2023 05:53:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60378 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMj4X-0002J5-KN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jul 2023 01:53:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35284) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMj4V-0002Ik-QY for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jul 2023 01:53:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qMj4Q-00075p-Dz; Fri, 21 Jul 2023 01:52:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Sm0Vh8Ojr3A7DOq0eZr+SjB2q5u0DSfmRnA2VfhKljA=; b=M/ZBGW+rDUQf 91pqZh/T0JFXSz8nPmG2lSbmtxxkyhfKV5BFbHr8do50B30OwtQyRzdaxvsDyrdoGrpLSfRSGTjLi Pq2hxHd5x047TzyGWKOF3azx8EV393A2XJ2AOJFtJA4ocsS47goydNEHek3XhQ43YuLTaoXOQy1Tv vHLHuoIBGGwTAZS2kN8UVSPMEmcBEZY4TQ2FolPR9RdA/+6Q8QS5epuYiICpfgYYrszC/it7kuDlV bZmKW5LI6ZgCNjYRZLF2ShHpfg5hzZA07fCftdhm4VjkL0US8CJbW7wn2ni68NVn0FjSxSLqFIcZG tCqAOLo0qcFv1icDszIdRw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qMj4H-0002oX-LG; Fri, 21 Jul 2023 01:52:47 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 08:53:21 +0300 Message-Id: <83o7k524ku.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Thu, 20 Jul 2023 22:42:02 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, 62320@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 22:42:02 -0400 > > I suggest that any node over 50 lines long is a long node, so it is good > to split th enode into several nodes that are reasonable in size. > Or at least close. If the node enumerates a long-enough list of actions or checks that belong to the same procedure, breaking it into several nodes makes the reading harder. But of course, I agree with the general principle. Although 50 is too small a number, IME; I think 150 is a better limit. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 21 03:55:55 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jul 2023 07:55:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60501 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMkzS-00066p-Nl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jul 2023 03:55:54 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:51869) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qMkzQ-00066X-I7 for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jul 2023 03:55:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1689926146; x=1690530946; i=michael.albinus@gmx.de; bh=DeHWDsthYZ2E4T8hn5XIrfFURjBVDuRqPY/rb8e7/mE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=kimrDob1TdO/4kJeViCxjGwkl7yBo3uw3+WZ4wDpi1lOr1+w2WQJls4so6WMcfd4jrfOHfy yif5rve5T+URYQkkCdBM7z5GCheDuF2BBq4sQRgVy1taeXpqh/iEdbSIkLl8mUdBr5utwoupw DivSvc6HKKDuU4T7LHW3zH4tfSU+4QT3R/A9+2HFleZ7dEvLZXRBgZxblBsmxI7SSo+YV/OWM DWLiLgmBVexdOQYxpukh0iFhTbLOkkhf6CpzIxobLlH/2Ff8q/IRASN2cUV6762RuSFpIRHuD 6FPWcOHu3Y0BPVZ53M7QK2dRVZ6AqjjcD5YLpVEABJeNtlwwBf9Q== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.39.27]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MMGRK-1qeyd21zYU-00JM2Y; Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:55:46 +0200 From: Michael Albinus To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 20 Jul 2023 22:42:02 -0400") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:55:45 +0200 Message-ID: <87bkg5em0u.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:A1+i9Ha4mfoyWXgYRaPIWseCUywQ1y/eUaxtVEWZd75zUC66vlK lDMwL93NiyQq3IncIJwm2HHbvU77OKiP5ccCWuDfZFMuvXM1JBlwYe1wi+fg5h965jwSOA6 FaX45XwOH/nWfGENGuLf0UsN9giR4ZV6iOArnEIrJAlKqozwgIEnc4d0m9qXiId2Dro3+04 kfS+h8IDJ+QOJITu3IWNw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:mch3q1Tmrjs=;jAh0rul1Mw95JtStyXmr19SyiMl jW8bihZYDhbaxEGJjFozkK7VEtgKeHrvPCRzoX8qKCbqj3PN07CMtBUWBEIYhKZdUNVz5Eqzs Q49zNHbIsVA76ux6upOYb368jkOZbZR4L4Z8b/oNaG2c5M0YMDQcHjH+zB5meVCWSlFeOJa1U eY9x1HSYGgFdOPRHM8ihntyyrFWsM1Zw2Y9TLgeWisclsK/5ZQhqA9e04eoPuzr7G76hNXgHV YFK/SuPV8lU5kdkL5shF0OIHnhebm2f3HfnjlWp48QZ9TFKx4qgQZ+Zn9i+Ur6Pca9ZNRtN70 C3BwGIJmIfBblPyrD9YticemHMAm5zsSOTpZlDWl5+HAudt8xyp+rfdI/7TEodrG/T1Ys1j4j gc9+FnNdt+/kl+2Za1NqgeB/dWbZpMS/mDK4q4dAmyy6cwNuDj2xlMvEJA8GPkUi8KGKQGwg7 H7FFuA4UM44T0BwyURJBRaAaWrD6UPbtBiCfK5AwYisyGsxmMr5wbuzKDtWzCbVW1Cc8IO1Xy 3FADjePX2bsSFPe70VR+zf1m4aUWps4QcBkRJSrQILf2nkaz9/8LP6D1P5Of5Q9p2vIUPOFEw AMvFzpd5T7cZtrZofcynm8BHRh68/1vsjruW4yuGefQBJ7HU8wW6gGCSkSilgnvsf5+InMzUV 8QvVeRs7s8cOtigY9KjWmq0rmxCuEwfbmhwLi15yc/M5fsHwKk4Cbie0asSj/QRBqob0ebpgR eDl88fCIOfRPGljmCdyRl0JN8IFMDhl+XRwy5iAxXa/UOHGhoPqJ5/pejm5oYRop8NEOfTdhF D72I5YFD6o9n58MbAiEGADTF7Y3V0RZ6VzjPS25NE1SLJ8GEHGGE2LEn3GwPpMdl/g795Vpuz 33Jznr1eYBWVS59+O/zpJZMQ7kWp+N9+1QzZe8yinXS12WBldbZrgnhyLr086lr5LMhSP+qAB 3gdGZw== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , eliz@gnu.org, 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Richard Stallman writes: Hi, > When a node is very long, that doesn't mean we should leave out > something useful. Rather, it suggests we should split it up into > several shorter nodes. > > Info's navigation is helpful when nodes are reasonable in size. > For long nodes, they are less helpful because they don't help > users find interesting _parts_ of a long node. In my texinfo files, I use @anchor inside long nodes. This allows better references to specific information in that node. See for example (info "(tramp)Quick Start Guide sudoedit method") Best regards, Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 22 23:01:16 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Jul 2023 03:01:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37732 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qNPLQ-000320-DS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59302) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qNPLO-00031f-26 for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:14 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qNPLI-0005Tj-Ru; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=diyKFX75UJGZMehwWAjAZd6rJKIr/5CGzR1G2eHT9z4=; b=XGhstJdv3LAF qqX/9YpTAGwmQilvX1PjFPXQ5jOqlnbhD96EYwHH/LX9rV2ERtqHHIxmNTR7EjUjfk/VsAYO/McOn 5bmWm/Sn0Fe7g4ilpUjzjhkzDqyZ1yjdwt29NSGNSsCWcJ4XB1K2z9cRqc61F8ib1/0xCAbvORxu/ u8mnYrteAKx377f385GV6ZLy21IKL+p9+2+VmZoVy16FiIU7b+l0xK0B2XgB2t6Z81iUVlagWI+Zx PS1rr8HywrwHeTkHADQ/JW0IIRi8u+7LfH398h6MEO0ZEVkmBXQpCf+30ZrroLn09XUFHXCvlYJvR 3wzu6mZZCnFZ131frVm3TA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qNPLI-0003ta-H5; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:08 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <83o7k524ku.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 21 Jul 2023 08:53:21 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> <83o7k524ku.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:08 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > If the node enumerates a long-enough list of actions or checks that > belong to the same procedure, breaking it into several nodes makes the > reading harder. Splitting a node doesn't have to be done in the simplest way. In a case like that, you can divide the actions into categories (purposes?) that meaningfully belong together, then write a subnode for each purpose. This offers a chance to explain them together, which is often very helpful. I've done this sort of thing many times, and I aim for 50 lines or even less. Give it a try! -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 22 23:01:26 2023 Received: (at 62320) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Jul 2023 03:01:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37736 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qNPLZ-00032T-3m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59300) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qNPLM-00031c-E1 for 62320@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:23 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qNPLH-0005T8-3M; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=go9U6X380Q1m59GV6Wsx8efLiUdTyXiq0KP61SXr3b0=; b=S8yHuQIADdD4 t6PNDhOOI8QXnKNAmkBeJ1pdWq6AvlUB6RKGpfNoV0p84YwWI53YPJiWsqPy9yo1C7i9s6YJRXVpZ MmQxKZqKMb3efl+W+hJPA6pTuPaC/VIc4KRj9IQ4bC0QvZmC0pLCln96zFxOcMqDFZiRSY6cvK39x tDie1xr67naE0DNmr9IVHZw9eFBqCwUAyFVIRtUGZdT8c09MHymlNZ2v4Zhh2uHMuNdnxKkr5hXYm Wp2pbksqYuCP6jsLx9hGCddr5uLuL9hprEpFp/L0YRiMoVdSydmotNot4AOCxx1Y43ap/ch3N5Wke pli75Gh20olcIuUNQzGwTg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qNPLG-0003hA-3h; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:06 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Michael Albinus In-Reply-To: <87bkg5em0u.fsf@gmx.de> (message from Michael Albinus on Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:55:45 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#62320: 30.0.50; Thoughts about (info "(emacs) Bugs") References: <87sfdyoext.fsf@web.de> <83bkkm6v8n.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkklcypz.fsf@web.de> <83wn374mmn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zg7vwpp4.fsf@web.de> <838rff7dwm.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8ii8bo7.fsf@web.de> <83h6tzzzri.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm4nuxlr.fsf@web.de> <87bkg5em0u.fsf@gmx.de> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2023 23:01:06 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62320 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, eliz@gnu.org, 62320@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Info's navigation is helpful when nodes are reasonable in size. > > For long nodes, they are less helpful because they don't help > > users find interesting _parts_ of a long node. > In my texinfo files, I use @anchor inside long nodes. This allows better > references to specific information in that node. I can see that it will help -- but splitting the node is a bigger improvement. It takes more work, but we can do it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:22:39 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator