From unknown Mon Sep 08 13:55:47 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#62272 <62272@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#62272 <62272@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Erroneous claim in grep man page Reply-To: bug#62272 <62272@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2025 20:55:47 +0000 retitle 62272 Erroneous claim in grep man page reassign 62272 grep submitter 62272 dakra137@gmail.com severity 62272 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 19 08:46:22 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Mar 2023 12:46:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49632 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pdsQX-00023h-Qf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 08:46:22 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:42830) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pdpKx-0002X7-Lc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 05:28:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pdpKv-0006e2-K0 for bug-grep@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 05:28:22 -0400 Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pdpKt-0004N9-SY for bug-grep@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 05:28:21 -0400 Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id t10-20020a9d774a000000b00698d7d8d512so5213405otl.10 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 02:28:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1679218097; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:mime-version:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+h+ZlaUigZ/w1Bz6c8Wft0G+bcJFPlGzF/t0DQcwb5s=; b=FSWBGMenNR55DroXaKzAbvi+2fQ+d2ruTRfzXhJv/Sey04PQHSeYCUUnxV5doALvei 6/bnZDzFb4ZzMCCJRdz92x1tXwmRsA1spWBBh1yJ5rTDM7fQLILJNlwuTnJTYmGdyhWx BEw17s0qw1MHY05IvbQN+QLMmNGZ4ROPqB047ouoD8QK3kF36dDlitqaxoGB3dF8cwkP 0ffQY0NqDpknQXy7o41JPd6huREclNdWgcTV0xjAtkpkw/YBrCKz8UyDFYPitwGB4nbh VbFrD/6uLJioOXHS6MT0gBcvxrXE4cyQdK8qYCFFz5XlUtgbpwRkqWKCVtRlBy/Yq1XU H0qA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679218097; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+h+ZlaUigZ/w1Bz6c8Wft0G+bcJFPlGzF/t0DQcwb5s=; b=s3/OwvGWviwF/pxeMuvU/ZwQzI/rJt5cj/eYvvyC2Y71GC9eFK+PpXV5hC0yRVbTP4 MlpGtAXQ9C70nLisoe/q+wLURBQIwVAjJ1MIpGMVjfBkzBmJtfC8r/TBq/tgCa5TlsvH 0yBgWINXOmIELhCKmGNzS5XS4zM+LRSBS8MrfvMIxD3kuHSKBTT03G4Imxp9HxSdbMEu rKH4LpFfwvMAynXTqE15DaEwmNljsLM2q/QUjJBb/CObfJQwmlYKKsPr0tlyRUEkkn+1 8ReZqVC9aqcVK7ICzSPifvWqct8xvVNQZ9COPdB2lJXJWGJF7QqXDYAlqN02jNLLiTK/ ZQiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWx5U4LWV6EYEaTZWU0V2oBXc76Pug630YzW2kR0yNFS6u8THHM BPEGBEBZ+gYjacRLL+ZQaNjek2Q5UgBE26ur8dR94bKAmKk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+Sr6CZgDCVlJ34G81lPY8UnQc99E2Gg2zCwdybRXXiygQdEjT/d7hpQS2jVu9wLznQiU7AmEDVVWE/MjXAqlY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:2019:b0:69e:4f9:851d with SMTP id e25-20020a056830201900b0069e04f9851dmr1402322otp.6.1679218097231; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 02:28:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: David Kra Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:27:41 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Erroneous claim in grep man page To: bug-grep@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002f9a3905f73d6ed9" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::336; envelope-from=dakra137@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x336.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLYTO_END_DIGIT=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 08:46:21 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: dakra137@gmail.com Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) --0000000000002f9a3905f73d6ed9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is a request and further endorsement of a report from 2008, ending with https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-grep/2008-08/msg00002.html Request: Either add four words to the manpage or delete the entire sentence. ASIS: "In GNU grep there is no difference in available functionality between basic and extended syntaxes." TOBE: "Although the syntaxes differ, in GNU grep there is no difference in available functionality between basic and extended syntaxes." Reasoning: The user should not suffer for not realizing that "no difference in available functionality" does not imply "no difference in syntax." Example: *$* *grep -i "([A-Z])\1\1" * grep: Invalid back reference #but no problem with: *$* *grep -i -E "([A-Z])\1\1"* or *$* *grep -i "\([A-Z]\)\1\1" * --- Thank you, *David A. Kra* __________________________________________________________________ --0000000000002f9a3905f73d6ed9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a request and further endorsement of a report from 2008, end= ing with https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-grep/2008-08/msg00002.ht= ml

Request: Either add four words to the manpage or delete the = entire sentence.
ASIS: "In GNU gre= p there is no difference in available functionality between basic and exten= ded syntaxes."

TOBE: "Although the syntaxes differ, in GNU gr= ep there is no difference in available functionality between basic and exte= nded syntaxes."

Reasoning: The user should not suffer for= not realizing that "no difference in available functionality" do= es not imply "no difference in syntax."
Example:
$ = grep -i "([A-Z])\1\1"
grep: Invalid back reference
= #but no problem with:
$ grep -i -E "([A-Z])\1\1"=
or$ grep -i "\([A-Z]\)\1\1"
---
Thank you,
<= div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif;display:inline">
= David A. Kra
_____________________= _____________________________________________
=
--0000000000002f9a3905f73d6ed9-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 19 21:54:52 2023 Received: (at 62272-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Mar 2023 01:54:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53347 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pe4jc-0002vy-Iw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 21:54:52 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-f177.google.com ([209.85.208.177]:39786) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pe4ja-0002vk-QQ for 62272-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 21:54:51 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-f177.google.com with SMTP id a11so65296lji.6 for <62272-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 18:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679277285; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=vdjc8IQXpts0pDfDjGj9Q6X6a9VukxcWTeXiS1FxrRA=; b=RqfsN2G6x/7IEAE59pzJZMX2x1hEjNg0xwa6qzXj4+YnT2DmuEd2kwL//NOJO7Cn2H OiBScPcJ7Nk6B/nD/D4OJrsBkeLyo2FzsZHhfLhqujY1CBjl3eHkhSpjBdJK0yTi9BrV iat4oC2S5VD0wG6uj3lD82LuOL0TgU+ocTdqdxuSqTy/8L4RsuXQsrDocxVcSoqWeNRi nkRa384bGA+zpQgJtwlYnG7LWvTCw6LQzfYuWdk3/55rwxpNYw+eAYR9GMIZm5rSdsK7 KgfbRxiYzuE1iD+iKLUpYf/la58Z+vPrbh8hHMoMWpLFuiVXVejUkhO/Ai//pNE0k46R JxNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKW8XGuqI9o0vxboD8/1KTix4jiFhcudh2bwSeI8L/jnAALhLoHR Ft1HTFfSgRQVZX3+vIacRRWeo+acaGjTU+lUB8w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8+7X7iuxWroboKz/fliSSEu/kNQx5tsuP0i1tMaUBdcZ2EBSwKkicJKkUDVjp3K2SxNj/NdEUdhxIYgS072as= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b4aa:0:b0:295:8ef2:8744 with SMTP id q10-20020a2eb4aa000000b002958ef28744mr5531465ljm.3.1679277284761; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 18:54:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jim Meyering Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2023 18:54:32 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#62272: Erroneous claim in grep man page To: dakra137@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62272-done Cc: 62272-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) tags notabug 62272 stop On Sun, Mar 19, 2023 at 5:47=E2=80=AFAM David Kra wrot= e: > This is a request and further endorsement of a report from 2008, ending > with https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-grep/2008-08/msg00002.html > > Request: Either add four words to the manpage or delete the entire > sentence. > ASIS: "In GNU grep there is no difference in available functionality > between basic and extended syntaxes." > > TOBE: "Although the syntaxes differ, in GNU grep there is no difference i= n > available functionality between basic and extended syntaxes." > > Reasoning: The user should not suffer for not realizing that "no differen= ce > in available functionality" does not imply "no difference in syntax." Thanks, but that sentence already says there are two different syntaxes: basic and extended. Those are different names, which usually implies they denote different thin= gs. So adding those four words at the beginning of the sentence would be unnecessary and repetitive. I'm marking this as done, but discussion may continue. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 20 03:30:03 2023 Received: (at 62272) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Mar 2023 07:30:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53541 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pe9xx-0006TC-QD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 03:30:03 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:51224) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pe9xu-0006Si-8c for 62272@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 03:29:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C394160054; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Kc8ehmZTcTPj; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9AA16005E; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:29:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 zimbra.cs.ucla.edu 6E9AA16005E DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=78364E5A-2AF3-11ED-87FA-8298ECA2D365; t=1679297390; bh=tryUwr74w+bTJrYFZxa4hfVmSyYJi/RJMqXJhGBI3m8=; h=Content-Type:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From:Subject; b=LzI8I8zPifUp6f+UeTNAGJgVpg+nvJQ4ieBo6IjR4hTk51E/gN+JYva6KuhBua8Fd d9ek9sIC7du/fHIq5YlxTKHXgX47r/KIrKWEVdy1WLibZ0nxuKkXjF4/FQY/VRc4fZ g7lakOevCHWb4twnXSurE5kTIFyVQrAjLB1v2gYY= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id FVnJWQ8puyjG; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3979F160054; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------jq5vwSzgf3RSpSMHvg0wKH4y" Message-ID: <0d0b51ac-9d6f-e244-63b3-b97f727a672b@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 00:29:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: dakra137@gmail.com References: From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Subject: Re: bug#62272: Erroneous claim in grep man page In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -3.4 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 62272 Cc: 62272@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------jq5vwSzgf3RSpSMHvg0wKH4y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2023-03-19 02:27, David Kra wrote: > TOBE: "Although the syntaxes differ, in GNU grep there is no difference in > available functionality between basic and extended syntaxes." I'm not a fan of "syntaxes". Although it is a word in computer science it grates in my ear because in linguistics "syntax" is a field of study and there is only one syntax just as there is only one rhetoric and there is only one logic. Anyway (to get off my soapbox :-) there's a bigger problem in the next sentence, which says, "In other implementations, basic regular expressions are less powerful." That's not true for POSIX BREs, as they have back-references, which POSIX EREs lack. (This is documented in the GNU grep manual's "Problematic Expressions" section.) And I doubt whether it's true that PCRE2 is a strict superset of EREs so we should scale the wording back a bit there too. I installed the attached doc patch, which I hope fixes these problems. 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