GNU bug report logs - #62170
29.0.60; the default tool bar icons are ugly to modern users and are not customizable

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 29.0.60; the default tool bar icons are ugly to modern users and
 are not customizable
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:16:38 -0400

1. Open "emacs -Q" and show it to someone who has spent the last 10
years using popular proprietary applications with big design budgets.
2. Point out the tool bar
3. Observe a look of disgust pass over their face
4. Observe that, if they do still try Emacs, they immediately disable
tool-bar-mode, even though it's very useful to new users, because it's
so ugly to them.

Proposed solution: it should be possible to configure the icons used
for a tool bar.  Then people could contribute new icon themes which
don't clash with modern design aesthetics, and eventually one or more
such icon themes could be adopted into Emacs, and perhaps one could
even be made the new default icon theme.

Alternatively, we could just throw out the current icons and replace
them with a minimal and abstract design which hopefully would have
mass appeal.  But maybe there are people who really like the current
icons and would be upset about that?


In GNU Emacs 29.0.60 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo
 version 1.15.12, Xaw scroll bars) of 2023-03-13 built on
 igm-qws-u22796a
Repository revision: e759905d2e0828eac4c8164b09113b40f6899656
Repository branch: emacs-29
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12011000
System Description: CentOS Linux 7 (Core)

Configured using:
 'configure --with-x-toolkit=lucid --with-modules
 --with-gif=ifavailable'

Configured features:
CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GLIB GMP GNUTLS GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON
LIBSELINUX LIBXML2 MODULES NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP
SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11 XDBE XIM XINPUT2
XPM LUCID ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Eshell

Minor modes in effect:
  eshell-prompt-mode: t
  eshell-hist-mode: t
  eshell-pred-mode: t
  eshell-cmpl-mode: t
  eshell-proc-mode: t
  eshell-arg-mode: t
  which-function-mode: t
  global-git-commit-mode: t
  magit-auto-revert-mode: t
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  windmove-mode: t
  savehist-mode: t
  save-place-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tab-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

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Features:
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term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe
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dbusbind inotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting cairo x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty
make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
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Message #8 received at 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com>
Cc: 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#62170: 29.0.60; the default tool bar icons are ugly to
 modern users and are not customizable
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 08:52:50 +0800

Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com> writes:

> 1. Open "emacs -Q" and show it to someone who has spent the last 10
> years using popular proprietary applications with big design budgets.
> 2. Point out the tool bar
> 3. Observe a look of disgust pass over their face
> 4. Observe that, if they do still try Emacs, they immediately disable
> tool-bar-mode, even though it's very useful to new users, because it's
> so ugly to them.

Curiously enough, I didn't see that response when I demonstrated Emacs
to a very respectable group of developers who were long time users of MS
Visual Studio...

Instead of ``spent the last 10 years using popular proprietary
applications with big design budgets'', how about ``18 year olds who
have never used anything other than a web browser and a smartphone in
their life?''

> Proposed solution: it should be possible to configure the icons used
> for a tool bar.  Then people could contribute new icon themes which
> don't clash with modern design aesthetics, and eventually one or more
> such icon themes could be adopted into Emacs, and perhaps one could
> even be made the new default icon theme.

Stefan Kangas was working on that.

> Alternatively, we could just throw out the current icons and replace
> them with a minimal and abstract design which hopefully would have
> mass appeal.  But maybe there are people who really like the current
> icons and would be upset about that?

I do.  Every supposedly ``modern'' set of icons proposed lacks color
contrast, making them indistinguishable from each other.

Message #11 received at 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com>
Cc: 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#62170: 29.0.60;
 the default tool bar icons are ugly to modern users and are not
 customizable
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 14:43:37 +0200

> From: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com>
> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:16:38 -0400
> 
> Proposed solution: it should be possible to configure the icons used
> for a tool bar.

But it already _is_ possible.  You "just" need to find somewhere the
icons you like, call their files by the names Emacs expects (for
example, "new.FOO" for the find-file button, where FOO is an image
extension supported by Emacs), then put them in some directory, and
make sure that directory is in image-load-path before the image
directories installed by "make install".

Alternatively, you can use in your init files functions from
tool-bar.el, such as tool-bar-add-item-from-menu, to override the
default image names used for the buttons; then Emacs will look for
other images.

> Alternatively, we could just throw out the current icons and replace
> them with a minimal and abstract design which hopefully would have
> mass appeal.

We replaced our icons a couple of times on the past.  We can do that
again, if better icons are available.  The difficulty is that for us
to distribute an icon it must be under a Free license.  So either we
have someone on board who could create beautiful icons as part of
his/her work on Emacs, or we find icons produced by someone else which
are distributed under a Free license and import them.

IOW, there's no problem with your proposal except coming up with
better icons we can include in our release tarballs.  It's not like we
are wedded to the current ones or consider them to be the best
inventions since sliced bread.

Message #14 received at 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
To: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com>
Cc: 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#62170: 29.0.60; the default tool bar icons are ugly to
 modern users and are not customizable
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:09:26 +0000

Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com> writes:

> 1. Open "emacs -Q" and show it to someone who has spent the last 10
> years using popular proprietary applications with big design budgets.
> 2. Point out the tool bar
> 3. Observe a look of disgust pass over their face
> 4. Observe that, if they do still try Emacs, they immediately disable
> tool-bar-mode, even though it's very useful to new users, because it's
> so ugly to them.

What Icons are we talking about?  I am using the PGTK build, and they
look just like the icons any other GTK would use.  Sure, it differ from
GNOME where the icons are part of the window bar, but that is a
different issue.

Message #17 received at 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs <at> gmail.com>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>, Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com>
Cc: 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#62170: 29.0.60; the default tool bar icons are ugly to modern
 users and are not customizable
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 12:36:15 -0700

On 3/13/2023 5:52 PM, Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss 
army knife of text editors wrote:
> Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com> writes:
>> Alternatively, we could just throw out the current icons and replace
>> them with a minimal and abstract design which hopefully would have
>> mass appeal.  But maybe there are people who really like the current
>> icons and would be upset about that?
> 
> I do.  Every supposedly ``modern'' set of icons proposed lacks color
> contrast, making them indistinguishable from each other.

Agreed. I think a good general guideline is this: for icons which are 
always in the same spot (e.g. the navigation buttons in your web 
browser), color probably isn't that valuable, and possibly a 
distraction. As a user, you'll quickly internalize where, say, the back 
button is anyway.

However, Emacs toolbars change according to the mode of the active 
buffer, so they're likely to change many times in a session. Here, some 
color is very useful for letting you tell at a glance what all the 
buttons are.

Still, I think I agree with the overall request: the current icons could 
use some improvement, partly just to make sure they all feel like they 
belong together. (This is worse on GTK builds, where some icons come 
from GTK and have one visual style, but others come from Emacs and look 
totally different.)

Message #20 received at 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Spencer Baugh <sbaugh <at> janestreet.com>, 62170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#62170: 29.0.60; the default tool bar icons are ugly to
 modern users and are not customizable
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 10:01:45 +0800

Jim Porter <jporterbugs <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Agreed. I think a good general guideline is this: for icons which are
> always in the same spot (e.g. the navigation buttons in your web
> browser), color probably isn't that valuable, and possibly a
> distraction. As a user, you'll quickly internalize where, say, the
> back button is anyway.

FWIW, I typically use the keyboard to navigate in a web browser, because
Mozilla keeps changing the location of their navigation buttons.  For
example, the Home button used to be to the right of the Search box, but
now it is to the right of the Reload button.

> Still, I think I agree with the overall request: the current icons
> could use some improvement, partly just to make sure they all feel
> like they belong together.

[...]

> (This is worse on GTK builds, where some icons come from GTK and have
> one visual style, but others come from Emacs and look totally
> different.)

This is mainly the fault of the GNOME developers: they keep changing
their default icon theme, so now Emacs's icons (mostly imported from
GNOME) are no longer consistent with the rest of the system.

Perhaps we could re-import icons from the GNOME icon theme?  The
non-symbolic ones, of course.

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