From unknown Sun Jun 22 03:48:14 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#61325 <61325@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#61325 <61325@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Reply-To: bug#61325 <61325@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:48:14 +0000 retitle 61325 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual reassign 61325 emacs submitter 61325 Ihor Radchenko severity 61325 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:01:26 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:01:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49658 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP3vq-0004K8-FW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:01:26 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:43014) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP3vo-0004K0-0x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:01:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP3vn-0008FD-7l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:01:23 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP3vk-0003kN-L1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:01:22 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C8E42403DC for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:01:16 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675699277; bh=6VKvBSr0PXEU52PYUpFxu1pa8N9R4vxm+r5pKF3w9u0=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=fltR1s/yKUsJcrna18K9mZy04/T08r9S401pM7g3ToqngjD+5HU2y8z+9QFpmxiBK ZAvJjV1yqsCxdwwepULY2HNjNU5OK8Cv47kX+tkD4VOqUxtblB+IxvF+Pube6GmBqm 912+l4Z0Ueu3KYERnt+BVaWe388vID5df+ZYNZLHP/36fZO7uLkj4rbM31ShjoKJ2Z tB/eLy4edJcT6PD/q0RDyGevrnMtCCTiXr7nSwLfo0kW1aC1FT5B3SnUS45EHct5et DVTuJaEDYYgLBGPH2sqQ39fq9lOx3br5VcatkdZDMFydU9La7kBlP5Kl+rYaWvf3S4 kZlQStXV1K1rg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9WG33zG1z9rxN for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:01:15 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000 Message-ID: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hi, I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8 Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find the style of these sections insulting. While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described topic. 3.15 Exiting Gnus has Note: Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the back of her plastic chair. I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user find this section insulting. Further, the last sentence in =E2=80=98z=E2=80=99 Suspend Gnus (=E2=80=98gnus-group-suspend=E2=80=99). This doesn=E2=80= =99t really exit Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I=E2=80=99m n= ot sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. 3.16 Group Topics If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful pieces of information coded inside? After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally) 8 Scoring has Other people use =E2=80=9Ckill files=E2=80=9D, but we here at Gnus Towe= rs like scoring better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. They do something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay attention! For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable. Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting files on file system? --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:27:18 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:27:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49690 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4Ks-00053H-AH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:27:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45042) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4Kq-00052y-J6 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:27:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4Kk-0000Le-Qs; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:27:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Ab/lw5+BBYe8eCUMhY11uT4RjPukB2e4tVgCP7r+VEo=; b=dbXPr6Ba8b1b 8lQYtqM3y9JpysJCvL079lhd+OwYeuIAXm5Txd8iQ7/Trr+mIIRSwbO80LOVWW2ZFw9fNQpMBGdFT 7yLI2UvcaT6KFsDN7OvA7xCI3GJimRF0Nb+zQ759Tk+CTYSbpmRIOi/DnGVIB1lISsUhr+I0Ne/3C enN5KitY89lGKZxtFINcFOoeItnklMfmxjFa0zwgXJehIjwLVw1E0u0qx8OS34xcwlKwkJQXsCnaW GSJk2WKQBmo7NbdTJqh6My5v5AYP6jh54TMTFgJs5BqDiIrPtMEEjotP7aayWM8HkO1xUk5Gz00Jj rNVym7V+EWB0TK30uvXF/w==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4Kk-00036n-4N; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:27:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:27:23 +0200 Message-Id: <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko > Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000 > > I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable. It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable. The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what a sad world would that be! (Come to think about, the only way to never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.) > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting > files on file system? A "kill file" is a filter that discards posts you don't want to read, ever. For whatever reasons. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:38:23 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:38:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49702 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4Va-0005NL-PY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:38:23 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:53883) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4VZ-0005N9-4j for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:38:21 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FC3A2402AB for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:38:15 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675701495; bh=bdkNUzvMM+WOC8KRdOp7nYsIpfPhaM6CP1jgUXvV2qI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=NHcBlmPasvX7bSgWfOjTNtz/wiCWqv6nL36+SyX3/JvMYy81mJi+1Cj8USzVUMICz G5i3yJ4krdnpve/SMMyBlTxobL3ezcui9/zWZYIDxactZE46RZjFMXS/UthScd4qg7 8duvDCkaF1N4DFYHWAGauLYMKsd92PkPNCd9+AVNadmjHLsYEbworO5daA+dln9cQw actnKnlRFhq7bo29ke089O8WJcXT4Rem+XKlMAxaX64tuyRMOf6fDOACNfREZLn0rv qkVtwAxX5B6drb4lsqxy5q1mwKzAvcrGh988iOIZK1gmro+8ZnzGne0J8JhUhIEObY QOwsIyK8Qjn5g== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9X4k24h0z9rxL; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:38:14 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:38:44 +0000 Message-ID: <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable. > > It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable. > The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what > a sad world would that be! (Come to think about, the only way to > never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.) You are overgeneralizing. Some jokes make larger fraction of people uncomfortable than others. There should be a borderline. Of course, drawing a line is tricky. However, the topics like sex and bullying are considered uncomfortable by whole cultures, not just individuals. I judge such jokes as over the border. For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs manuals? >> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also >> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting >> files on file system? > > A "kill file" is a filter that discards posts you don't want to read, > ever. For whatever reasons. See > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file Thanks for the reference. So, this sentence is not a joke. A footnote would help for younger users, who haven't heard about Usenet. (I've heard, but I am not familiar with English segment jargon). -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:42:07 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:42:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49707 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4ZD-0005Tm-Fq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:42:07 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:54737) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4ZB-0005TH-Q0 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:42:06 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E3AD2401DE for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:42:00 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675701720; bh=PhqR8nmquaMkYqwqxFW60GR6JuPgmF7Epk28zKu6qYA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=QSyEbf/DaKnM5mM+H5hSs57NDxnYxKYgIjCnSZeMyg8iHnJG/HcQXb76vv+HMdru2 NpBoyeEgn8shN9ZUFprRMx31NTIj5QT6qoQB795KHtG4Obe/KfBHHo9M3lo490s44z QiZkmTMELxJ5gj/pq46xJDJSTRJTuxMJ6eIRrX7wcvI+W3zu0w+z+ByGTzN0uf9ySG yzXF74DuGzLIQrCzath7DzjpPEIQ7oHEUec5bfYqFsSRs0JaN5wk/zPNl4+VkYvTfN eMHTB65Sh5s/xScV3mgYH2dvXJZQwdNvOGYEqD8SOQlxgYzMGmiITxJ/z7QYdfpf4c UZMVrZhXg3Vqw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9X935pJ8z9rxB; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 17:41:59 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:42:29 +0000 Message-ID: <87mt5q7nka.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Ihor Radchenko writes: > For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered > more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation > is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs > manuals? *I was referring to USA taking race jokes more seriously. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 11:51:18 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:51:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49734 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4i6-0005nQ-6C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:51:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51922) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4i4-0005nA-NO for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:51:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4hz-0005Vf-D6; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:51:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=hFFGZyV6g8jUj3fMDQRBhwgtAQP9fLSy+dDl0iMs+Cc=; b=REOjIzOo1E2X vAAiVGpA+Ud7KJ36CzxBi/RReiBGGGvAaAayqOa3IBonnlJzMO/mJ9nIjzdi6nikvKJOn4EyaaYnE MrCZ5qpLFKoW5j3BgQ/i4G2zAN1b226nc/p0bUdosnP+Z5b23sKIr30Qff8bwi4SXTudh1Pu9iaFb frsiPVaL5ndE5LsGOmxw4fOCR+R9POI8IaLOHwZLERfUUfuEPXjCF3PMwhGmBNDB3HNG84LM4lXkp rXGaohktq84PjjPc1HDklaGTNYSNFkYpTon0CBaaayVM7YoM8lkQu9Bg2Amch1hPxkyJKAt7QYPxl QmsL6J7PcEGUWs4Iut1vzw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4hy-0000BZ-6l; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:51:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:51:23 +0200 Message-Id: <83pmampwj8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:38:44 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Ihor Radchenko > Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:38:44 +0000 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable. > > > > It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable. > > The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what > > a sad world would that be! (Come to think about, the only way to > > never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.) > > You are overgeneralizing. > Some jokes make larger fraction of people uncomfortable than others. > There should be a borderline. > > Of course, drawing a line is tricky. However, the topics like sex and > bullying are considered uncomfortable by whole cultures, not just > individuals. I judge such jokes as over the border. > > For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered > more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation > is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs > manuals? Who is overgeneralizing now? Are there such jokes in our manuals? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 12:03:48 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 17:03:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49756 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4uB-0006BA-Sc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:03:48 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:52737) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4u8-0006Ar-TU for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:03:46 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AB4D2402CF for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:03:38 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675703019; bh=PnohWqS/dD04LEtsygnap6RyQe7fe3l5aYXDTz0oZ5M=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=Be3kQJwp2NNsgxsLKzdX6Ce88hM/XzrtUPA9txVveBuI5DnlaGI39dihcK16ps4nB Z/l8QVdfUmzorWT2IcCm29rtxFNsn0vjyaEswAiv0O+Kz8I8vOBwyGFdyq3tMzgFKE T2V5NIRcblDt6mf6Iks/RQZ2s4ZcXqt5ELv/vxYK6HvFRLtOu2GSAteq48LmEFMWQ5 Dw1+HoTcZ420FGsbf9kCiH6LQ3BHNbwLN05j4nwfyXqHfsnFxqCvoZw4VpsZrMzelU ilFldtX2N4qqSU7HAyUTaEDjYunPRAr253BJ1LSkYmJUYjbPxrt1wFg+/0geqbIive C3UGOKvsQUCag== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9Xf13F02z6tm6; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:03:37 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83pmampwj8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmam7nqj.fsf@localhost> <83pmampwj8.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 17:04:07 +0000 Message-ID: <87k00u7mk8.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered >> more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation >> is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs >> manuals? > > Who is overgeneralizing now? > > Are there such jokes in our manuals? I was trying to provide illustration that helps to understand the perspective of non-USA user. Apparently, it was not helpful. Feel free to ignore this kind of example. The previous two paragraphs are the main statement. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 12:24:03 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 17:24:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49772 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP5Dn-0006m2-Hy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:24:03 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:35644) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP5Dl-0006lY-J9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:24:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP5Di-0005gB-LM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:23:58 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP5DZ-0003hf-3K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:23:58 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pP5DH-0006cr-AA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:23:31 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Pankaj Jangid Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 22:53:21 +0530 Message-ID: <87fsbihfna.fsf@codeisgreat.org> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:P5Hk8lUM1ZjcBEx83/M019deQds= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Ihor Radchenko writes: > I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8 > Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find > the style of these sections insulting. > > While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside > USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the > listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described > topic. I am outside USA, and I really enjoyed reading the Gnus manual. Infact, this is one of those manuals which a user can read end-to-end in one sitting, without getting bored. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 12:49:03 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 17:49:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49819 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP5by-0007cq-TW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:49:03 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:50375) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP5bw-0007cE-Df for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:49:01 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F02E02400D7 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:48:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675705734; bh=XPfmNzem+gJ2npDc7A1MiAAWuOc4ILOgX1EgUHKfZUs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=hu19jbcGivnPgqKUuz25uQ9h00P+b23rPRRFsYJH7O5KD0y1Do9WHrAB4jhZxNpJj dFjnizIkTLYrYCI8bZyA9qm/hkeE0AATrzWfYAvEMe/QEs8Ym/1Qt2YBPBcDpJ79Ps TTPCLyeIp/TgXqLz6tvCw8FzMCsqoOSt4aY2RT1o28NV9z16adhlXnTXluCMtycM8C nDPICfzjEGFlocFW61q6Gj0+dArVsjRUuFbsPL28R6PX+gwye+wwZ6dXWxyI82GPxo 3XMcHZ7PCeKUwguSmTYGvn1JfzQ/FS1WPJ7Uty45CVVahK7exmOPUUzTATVrwuVCzA wgKAGvXmr3gWg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9YfB5JKSz6tns; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:48:50 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Pankaj Jangid Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87fsbihfna.fsf@codeisgreat.org> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87fsbihfna.fsf@codeisgreat.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 17:49:23 +0000 Message-ID: <87h6vy7kgs.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Pankaj Jangid writes: >> While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside >> USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the >> listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described >> topic. > > I am outside USA, and I really enjoyed reading the Gnus manual. Infact, > this is one of those manuals which a user can read end-to-end in one > sitting, without getting bored. Thanks for the input! May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 12:49:20 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 17:49:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49824 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP5cF-0007dP-PU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:49:20 -0500 Received: from mail-qt1-f179.google.com ([209.85.160.179]:42584) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4EB-0004qj-Nm for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:20:23 -0500 Received: by mail-qt1-f179.google.com with SMTP id 5so3444054qtp.9 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 08:20:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Sj0knyxNMMJykHXWtOjkvvWyQThZDXkbTXx3gtyFX00=; b=Y51mE1veTRKVKmZK5V8eyUW6hobY+UkhJTeQ0bESdIlvioOo1gXU+B0NWr0fhc142A d5IYmQqPVBEruoub1Fy38BHKP6Wlw7YQGo/0YZzS+yH8zKEzI8hSCC1D5XfQEz6BDoZs FHTL/+wtakcqOJviV3Ba89uSkv2VGj3G2OsHYHYv7a+kPx0RWg0zXt6vnbyeHYcDVNaY w3JV+ZwfDxkq9fNB9j2oE3lDtC0rXNidfGQeRWGLSwEx9CA0KjPCDDbQ5TiKICOVORgi 4N8KBZyXRKVS2Spmpy/BASBk/S7Y/Xtxvg9J0Ud6POkY9efXb1gPjNvCUqtBHxuQIWWG mcOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Sj0knyxNMMJykHXWtOjkvvWyQThZDXkbTXx3gtyFX00=; b=CD6VW3bWiXL6twJbKiInIw0VSG/7n54yEV8Jz7zRhuaRaOPF0QGtsWuoXE4Gn9I+qF xJ8jhyCYDK7oUjXCVu+mHjhqYdeuNf4yAMb73+MdmepZUjpYZFDRM9qwLNdL4kWuLMm5 qPznh3KbID7PMLSXuBebM4mYgErEgKphTdW62j2Ow3Spj96SqRn+ws+fHnwXMsXXwBF0 Vf8spMSRCsrvhHhunEv1YBe/U6Ivu1a1xZlgak59ZxojXIIVrEVqxZu2V/IX2kokx02w yN0ZMW15XPjTQCmuNbmuL8k1MnRQz5lKzxz/l0+a+WAkGJLslbF+3chPlp/d4rbFIkPc rlHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUOJWatJi4r2Vj7Zx60KA2pcrHyNQIWrXnuUv6X9Gxx8M6Rdovy 7zWPVzkOuGn/XKxcrO5+iVc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8Yk/T5P/8jeo3zgV9L+60+EzmBvF7xoADzIsHMXhZhdV8UsnlYUBSGekLdVcuNjK8Yu0AEhA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:2ca:b0:3b9:b1a1:73ec with SMTP id a10-20020a05622a02ca00b003b9b1a173ecmr37837400qtx.23.1675700417887; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 08:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ool-45763be4.dyn.optonline.net. [69.118.59.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24-20020ac851d8000000b003b82a07c4d6sm7452604qtn.84.2023.02.06.08.20.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 08:20:17 -0800 (PST) From: dick To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:20:16 -0500 Message-ID: <87r0v2rcjj.fsf@dick> User-Agent: Gnus/5.14 (Gnus v5.14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 12:49:18 -0500 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) The guy was 20 when he wrote the now-in-retrospect mealy-mouthed and profoundly unfunny manual. Even I, someone who's repeatedly landed himself in hot water ribald off-color remarks, can see his attempts at levity and irreverence fall flat. Gnus is, by current standards, largely shit software, so its manual is oddly fitting. I wouldn't worry about it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 13:37:50 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 18:37:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49915 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP6NB-0000Zt-RJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:37:50 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:33698) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP6NA-0000Zl-Dw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:37:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP6N5-0007Xh-G1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:37:48 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pP6Ms-00036H-D1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:37:43 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pP6Mp-0003kv-U3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 19:37:27 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Pankaj Jangid Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 00:07:21 +0530 Message-ID: <87a61q4p3y.fsf@codeisgreat.org> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87fsbihfna.fsf@codeisgreat.org> <87h6vy7kgs.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Zzx9k4PjZBfw11YZ3beNQaABYIs= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Ihor Radchenko writes: > May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find > them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific > examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise. Most of the jokes are contextual. And sometimes they carry an assumption that the user is already familiar with Emacs jargon. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 06 13:44:51 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 18:44:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49927 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP6Tz-0000lp-Ho for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:44:51 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:57047) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP6Ty-0000lb-13 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 13:44:50 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A24C224013D for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 19:44:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675709083; bh=t70UWVpQAMmoQoi70NdOUuavTCSMBJkx+OpNg03F7b4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=GRKgGQqGDK6wWmU7mOllwzcnRWMYudRpKWLG6rImpTZP6+qUHNBIdM1EKz5xIrbER xNgUoAUiWyFl0zs+2Y7q8d9gSONtiUIvGM56MX/q+mThiU6SaQk1mpDZDqrygHYtgw 0/A8HLdxYAxcJ2AVyc5t83fnRSeh/pc+/t9xDa7QnvCqEry/3w5T9JGDgji7u0t87+ B9wEygcoJwj2nUuC2RXxdmVyYULm7/dMLpMbt/L7jedXsXBm/SLWOCrE2XcuKrBMTw BmaLKxXqour4/WfUox77tgg1CNKD2OaeJtaWju9Jet/0V9QTxQJDHeZBz8LSpWE8W+ LA6ZFQTTvwaPw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9Ztc3h4Bz9rxL; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 19:44:40 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Pankaj Jangid Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87a61q4p3y.fsf@codeisgreat.org> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87fsbihfna.fsf@codeisgreat.org> <87h6vy7kgs.fsf@localhost> <87a61q4p3y.fsf@codeisgreat.org> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:45:16 +0000 Message-ID: <87cz6m7hvn.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Pankaj Jangid writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find >> them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific >> examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise. > > Most of the jokes are contextual. And sometimes they carry an assumption > that the user is already familiar with Emacs jargon. Sure, but what about the specific examples I provided? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 26524ba057f35663cf4527a7118f97f4; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:04:56 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:04:51 +0800 Message-ID: <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 3358 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside > USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the > listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described > topic. I am not American, yet I understand most of the jokes in the Gnus manual. > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > Note: > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > back of her plastic chair. > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > find this section insulting. > > Further, the last sentence in > > =E2=80=98z=E2=80=99 > Suspend Gnus (=E2=80=98gnus-group-suspend=E2=80=99). This doesn=E2= =80=99t really exit > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I=E2=80=99m= not > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. > > 3.16 Group Topics > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o= ver > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s= o?) > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You = can > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! > > Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often > negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel > disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the > first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful > pieces of information coded inside? I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a public news server. > After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted > jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is > distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally) > > 8 Scoring has > > Other people use =E2=80=9Ckill files=E2=80=9D, but we here at Gnus To= wers like scoring > better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. They = do > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > attention! > > For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of > word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we > .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that > make people feel uncomfortable. > > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting > files on file system? Gnus is a news reader. Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in its manual are those who read net news. Since you don't know what a kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that paragraph. The internet is for adults, not silly folk who cry about everything they don't understand. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 06:24:24 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 11:24:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51246 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPM5I-0001xK-Gr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 06:24:24 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:39915) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPM5H-0001x7-4n for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 06:24:23 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A43B240474 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 12:24:16 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675769057; bh=iFpSFNIPueJ+7x4nUolaSLpKSXQCsWadr/OWltkzx6k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=RAqYiEhZSmQeVrB6mJAnM7DcJlHSdx0G7uV1N9ksnSHvTR/15S4xy3BQaRdJKnNrA CsPwcjIugeJXCwLNF/XWpYbaSo9SQkjgcgX0dJr8EyI5OKQL3HK926JHb2LwGFAm2Z oY2LxDK6+3h6zKvup2apcM4kQ0qaSAKSJnL0Kq6B/Zr3sP/Hl/9zUIslf5nxlsnGUK IIJiIHT4E/kfIsgI6plp+0xPdUUyM4i+GGAKv0C6K9GK5kWZgiGgfZDp9wG0lZMiTu QEnI7TxP4j7tUEiCF5J940LK4et+khj8hcMOciN814xXIa2oYeFMzdEx4m7iPSM8tm xTojv5sxPQhMQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PB13z433yz9rxF; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 12:24:15 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:24:53 +0000 Message-ID: <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: >> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has >> >> ... >> 3.16 Group Topics >> ... > > I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a > public news server. May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to? >> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also >> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting >> files on file system? > > Gnus is a news reader. Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in > its manual are those who read net news. Since you don't know what a > kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that > paragraph. Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic, which is present in the same paragraph. > The internet is for adults, not silly folk who cry about everything they > don't understand. I do not mind not understanding. But I do prefer to have manuals written in such a way that I can at least distinguish jokes from the technical information I actually need to use GNUS. I admit that the paragraph about "kill files" is clearly distinguishable as a joke. Not so much for 3.16 Group Topics where jokes and non-jokes are rather mixed. Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to use GNUS? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 904f302d5d18c777824891bbfde2d948; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 12:36:41 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:24:53 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 20:36:34 +0800 Message-ID: <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1775 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Po Lu writes: > >>> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has >>> >>> ... >>> 3.16 Group Topics >>> ... >> >> I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a >> public news server. > > May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to? This one: 3.16 Group Topics If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! I do understand the rest as well. > Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic, > which is present in the same paragraph. There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other newsgroup? Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get a life! > I do not mind not understanding. But I do prefer to have manuals written > in such a way that I can at least distinguish jokes from the technical > information I actually need to use GNUS. I admit that the paragraph > about "kill files" is clearly distinguishable as a joke. Not so much for > 3.16 Group Topics where jokes and non-jokes are rather mixed. > > Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use > GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to > use GNUS? No, but they are not expected to understand the jokes in the manual for a _newsreader_ either. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 08:00:52 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 13:00:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51480 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPNae-000751-3I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 08:00:52 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:53213) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPNab-00074m-9J for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 08:00:50 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 353682406B6 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 14:00:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675774843; bh=vWQTYUz5CSDuvb9PPOXYMSyOXIPzMt8fBrxKhlbgY1A=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=jwq6VpFqunAuQkeRQpJw3+MHFDut8OHL+hDqfcc39rtvOOUvZDTaMkdDmv2EiVvjD 15QW8v2ikZNYOabjp39erGSxJIz+YxBqeaYNwvXWZGqsulbT9MICEMfTQCg5Ccfm0A ku1EZTzRdhIo9n1g5zmpnfWWuGvMvNDZXBAsox9Zm0XcB50NBhE9AQy/2GowmghkLF 72BDmB+PicxNm4QDbOoH3gJevSzHDD4e7Y3Z1do8duYSj1TiAmlb8tMbgUOCV5ni9I mi4ibV1YU6jnstnpgeZQkrysRyMzGK+bOmVmyko93OhieLkr7G2eCtBWnD27+64vcq cM6hi6STdNTnQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PB3CF1w1sz6tlh; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 14:00:40 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 13:01:14 +0000 Message-ID: <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: >> May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to? > > This one: > > 3.16 Group Topics > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o= ver > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s= o?) > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You = can > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! Thanks. I also partially understand the joke. My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is technical or still part of the joke. You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! The paragraph structure is basically: Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself is not understood. To summarize, my problem is not a joke and not that I understand it or not. My problem is that I do not fully understand technical descriptions in this paragraph. > I do understand the rest as well. Ok. I am especially confused about the Note: part in 3.15 Exiting Gnus has. I fail to see a joke there. (this is not important in the context of this bug, I am just curious) >> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic, >> which is present in the same paragraph. > > There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes > about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other > newsgroup? > > Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get > a life! While I do agree that people should ideally understand that jokes are not aiming to offend them, even if the topic is not acceptable in someone's culture, it is not practically the case for all the users. In particular, topics sensitive within whole cultures (sex, race, female bullying) are likely to distract (or worse) a significant fraction of Emacs users from acquiring the technical context of the manual. The fact that another fraction of the Emacs users find such jokes pleasing does not change this fact. I would also like to point out that GNUS is well-known to be hard-to-grasp. A manual loaded with large amount of culture-specific jokes does not help in this regard. In particular, I do find "3.16 Group Topics" section of the manual difficult to understand precisely because it is overloaded with jokes. >> Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use >> GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to >> use GNUS? > > No, but they are not expected to understand the jokes in the manual for > a _newsreader_ either. Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 69c6906d544ae84bd5d73a7b04c1acc9; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:03:28 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 13:01:14 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 22:03:22 +0800 Message-ID: <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 4294 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Po Lu writes: > >>> May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to? >> >> This one: >> >> 3.16 Group Topics >> >> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group >> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups = over >> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or = so?) >> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You= can >> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs >> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! > > Thanks. > I also partially understand the joke. > My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is > technical or still part of the joke. > > You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the > Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! > > The paragraph structure is basically: > > > > Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself > is not understood. > > To summarize, my problem is not a joke and not that I understand it or > not. My problem is that I do not fully understand technical descriptions > in this paragraph. > >> I do understand the rest as well. > > Ok. I am especially confused about the Note: part in 3.15 Exiting Gnus > has. I fail to see a joke there. (this is not important in the context > of this bug, I am just curious) > >>> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic, >>> which is present in the same paragraph. >> >> There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes >> about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other >> newsgroup? >> >> Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get >> a life! > > While I do agree that people should ideally understand that jokes are > not aiming to offend them, even if the topic is not acceptable in > someone's culture, it is not practically the case for all the users. > > In particular, topics sensitive within whole cultures (sex, race, > female bullying) are likely to distract (or worse) a significant > fraction of Emacs users from acquiring the technical context of the > manual. The fact that another fraction of the Emacs users find such > jokes pleasing does not change this fact. > > I would also like to point out that GNUS is well-known to be > hard-to-grasp. A manual loaded with large amount of culture-specific > jokes does not help in this regard. In particular, I do find "3.16 Group > Topics" section of the manual difficult to understand precisely because > it is overloaded with jokes. > Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts. They do not. End of discussion. Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''. They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc. Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they appear. Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such individual. And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a problem with the jokes therein. Just read it again until you do. How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it at least once or twice? XcmsCIELabClipL This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary. Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes of crusaders? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 09:42:50 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 14:42:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51630 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPPBJ-0003eh-Hi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:42:50 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:60295) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPPBG-0003eP-Oc for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:42:48 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B5962404DD for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 15:42:40 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675780960; bh=5luOzGDxbP88+tiDeVCUb3J7jJLG3cmrtE8iJm/22Ag=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=JZOgPxGrV9MFJpDmGsgxT480oZXA4J5MexknfLN2f1OqYl+0GoWg1SPhKRn3C622P D/sOOBv39E/+2OGhNBts30LJzgCQ7fqzbnIVvusva6GFjH34rZn6xocbauootACT05 kGUg3pD7rrTgKVrGZMnNH/TSiSuClKOh08QDMjU87eZXaPeySDQj65iI5CEjTUgy0k IlMbDem9ebX7NTv31YX7OqUv2+hG/+n9aw09EaVLxBAZ79B9DuNTItPBtCBpFRdVpl cPk/towgszL+bQCzG/Ac7cz0ZrHSOV0k+RqXi0bwo1VALcHF1wYI6ONGX4tVmtNMLX dRq4atQl0FINQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PB5Sv3dtgz9rxB; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 15:42:39 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:43:06 +0000 Message-ID: <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" writes: >>> 3.16 Group Topics >>> >>> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group >>> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups= over >>> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or= so?) >>> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. Yo= u can >>> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs >>> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! >> >> Thanks. >> I also partially understand the joke. >> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is >> technical or still part of the joke. >> >> You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the >> Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! >> >> The paragraph structure is basically: >> >> >> >> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself >> is not understood. > ... >> Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts. > > They do not. End of discussion. I kindly disagree. 3.16 Group Topics section was difficult to understand _for me_ precisely because of the jokes. I will elaborate below. > Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately > tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''. > They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they > report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't > understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc. > > Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they > appear. Upon hearing about the problem and checking the specifically indicated sections in the manual, I tend to agree with the person being offended. Not because I am not offended (I am not), but because, as I stated earlier, I believe that jokes should not complicate the understanding. > Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen > other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such > individual. And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a > problem with the jokes therein. Just read it again until you do. > How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it > at least once or twice? Absence of bug reports does not imply that the manual is easy to understand. I do not say that it is incomprehensible, but the examples I pointed to do make it harder to understand. Won't it be an improvement to make the manual easier to understand for more people? > XcmsCIELabClipL > > This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the > screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness > (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the > gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond > maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the > same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab > coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See > `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary. > > Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes > of crusaders? I do not see any problem with the provided paragraph. Yes, it contains a lot of unfamiliar terms, but they appear to be necessary to describe the technical information. In contrast, jokes do not convey any new information. They are good to have as an _occasional_ distraction - a break that may be necessary to simplify understanding; but not good when they make understanding more difficult. Imagine a joke inserted into your example, on top of all other unfamiliar terms: > This brings the encountered out-of-gamut (not gonad, mind you) color > specification into the screen's color gamut by reducing or > increasing (let's not think further) CIE metric lightness (L*) in the > CIE Lab color space until the color is within (mmm...) the gamut. Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes when trying to understand the above sentence? --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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[69.118.59.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y23-20020ac87057000000b003b86b5a07b3sm1153369qtm.90.2023.02.07.06.15.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 06:15:55 -0800 (PST) From: dick Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu via's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 20:36:34 +0800") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:15:54 -0500 Message-ID: <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> User-Agent: Gnus/5.14 (Gnus v5.14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: I don't think "joke" means what you think it means. A joke need not be funny but it does need to at least attempt capturing an irony. The literary device used by the Gnus manual is merely whimsy. In a [...] Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (dick.r.chiang[at]gmail.com) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 1.2 MISSING_HEADERS Missing To: header -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.219.43 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [209.85.219.43 listed in wl.mailspike.net] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:54:57 -0500 Cc: Po Lu , Ihor Radchenko , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) I don't think "joke" means what you think it means. A joke need not be funny but it does need to at least attempt capturing an irony. The literary device used by the Gnus manual is merely whimsy. In any other context, the prose used, e.g., "Go wild!", would not raise any eyebrows, but because it's injected into a technical manual, non-English speakers mistakenly interpret this as an American's idea of a joke, when in fact it's just grating ennui. Now someone who spends 1/7 of his waking hours modifying emacs telling others to "get a life." Now that's funny! 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 71d91acc9a522abfb01ae489f91b7000; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 15:09:35 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: dick Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> (dick's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:15:54 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:09:28 +0800 Message-ID: <87edr17brr.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 180 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Ihor Radchenko , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) dick writes: [drivel elided] *plonk*. Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies from being recorded on the bug tracker? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 10:12:55 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 15:12:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53756 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPPeR-0007KP-E0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:12:55 -0500 Received: from sonic305-48.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.174]:45471) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPPeP-0007KA-Kf for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:12:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675782767; bh=B7OWb8av8vqmIQSFp5onpah9/Onkh21wUPjey2ypSzQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=s49MwANzU0AoCxCIadEveZow4yNWIgKgRf6jXmTjwC4OMhGozBspJb7cbODxQ92fokSkPAxgmghdrOqmGtN2Fz+Q5yeXBQ2ruvNPMXxdmnebkUK/V/3Yh+EwQeUWcuFcuShiGz3vWdDLOsvGZ+8/X8XDEpvuUIuCntczRuMA4RNII1CDN7stUhqde7/NaAZjFRHw/UJPfgzZ+NHlXyNTBzWNIiFhKkYQ4CEupMhzAWsgyfKWVoeVSVmA0YSh4Z+imjmJCrKUx1jElnml1g2JImM3fnKUYeAFjO0sEtVPBF/fg9Ot2HQEzCIvO33PIOT5guDqxjFCAmzFXKZwn0hqQg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675782767; bh=UpCpae8kW0a5rFMDnSeyk13cQECLoKDVd71LP2xc/IH=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=cV//Tji5ZhHnQUv8PWBNYHQBpVMOBcnX7wX3l4wzWbqUV9SuT0kUPillJBKXCh7X2YQx+LELTDvEzWO+XGV3BBgBmVy0rvClbn3LFwh8OSdFMW+zQ5HqO4OSd7v4ES0gOZc240zcUnaMiJiwQSt6PLQwLG0FvQcNnUfYvv6ZE3ruQmtOp3iVlQq1B+1yxZf9rzRWVsXJmpAlhbxCUL4fqFEhks0Zlql/pJPw69Kp8XYFW4kUvtei4kqbxDVueWuIsl8qNCVo4NgIEtqaX7I7xL2vHbcxx1vXzJd5U6lWlGMdZSX7Jgs6l18IFk+l9Z6fuj9PVL+4UoZmw8BIW6zUsw== X-YMail-OSG: 2v.N79IVM1nuDHfcE73a1dusZDiW8FHqGWuM.Fj3xwxnv37Wsh_jDZMshUF_PYQ 2xMhA9ZoI8VqMhHeVRmNel1.0F3tqlP593N6sfJi3WwL69vjAREqFLmUjoPUjKGT__MbHITxjXip VUXv2QmEvWpty_54w3ROJpeBNkQpGJRPtBvGTCbX_4.3hs9ZziOi3FrgcLaFvWcbYotZ3PpLa7Wj tIeGC7AaeqFvQnlspAbuTX2EbAEtclUhrqOv1Y7RfUx5rQ4K84Vq2iuOilQZS0nbn2Lu4dfRzMA9 BYbBba2_2Udyg1BLy5ob_V38PHMAGtfs5RJ7fmkvB.h2UDmWjaTQROatwpXS3i31isKTg2sCV1X3 .SEpzl54eMgEnlNzb8YtbQZuEXdCZqUZQcAEPc6gv5bsR4i17C13uRq871byaKw90d7e.A316XCg n7UDxEcwMETllNGdc04_lXyiqVcKtzZlNEFs0B0Eb35Ptdc8TkKW6ZiNNovAURzgNnZxqNSgxOVt 1EY_AlREY75yveS4MO5NdaKeUglm57FQudZ6JwYv1EhWDX6suRydfdfWPzON.pW7mRac6zmwCZ7l V_wuD36KL3Q9KkIhUf3RoPkksjhxVDoyUwveHSpXptjeWLiLaSLjAifEW132.kTodR06V2Qg27lu qbzvB1QmuBdenJk..Gzp1ZVZf2p_5BIaPr2JleQaUySzjXDOBt_ZXWkYitrz9LHp7o1K48RYTYwt M_0Lc1.2jOrW4_L1m2677rHczM9TkJ7DNlcsaRKI_4E9L3xsNDUQjJFVQwh.L3C4GRb.8oZtQ.6e 6cxKKTrq4IqRcoPIEP6OMXg82NAwkxaRB0ufGLPwkd22ajYMAEYLInsHykjgLMNbYVLt.Tn6OBtV 5T2LsvCmH71Le890A6knBP7q5skG744LReouo60bM.iwAwer1D3_G7DPOWMraVk4DIU1hFxAwsdg kbT1DwbcWxBxyC5zabTAWPvY4uQOPE9bMVGmeBQl469zl_vajamGLiP_yVUqyYnApc_TgFi4xFYw pOuQhhG7BkM.e.af93IioKJG0ksXjCkKFREkI75KyK3VQxbv20yWRqUZEdBzjYqmpHxGSMA60B3T F3vZL4ITNrr2R0gRpzlDefQPS95q_iHRqkAzAKcpLzI0ZpGBwr7nsr2Aq52BIFa7DnTdlVaqS.pD OwMMns2l8_17Q1OhCzf4_prEeGbghreuVL8SHauixVJTWmNpNFe4DkrUZjJ9V6PjGM6Ls8BlcA4S oFCH67GsEwvdl870AsAjuM57LgtemsiolPnYuWHPYiaiSpggorWgh1_iKZ9s0eNnta2ZZxWn.S30 1GKcI1lMmncUWxzszPizRCxjmTYQRsvLGYiuKLGdFHCrir2QkpCdV_UIfdG61QjlDfkMaPeX4CG3 tyrjz6VpEOPW6jtXw_de93RQywQ9nopmAgMSThFy2R2SSanWKf5huePF3S7WYHbnr9QQsETjo2rK nb_oNLtnUsyjqDlBLwvs97zi.tDLy.HhISEl1dD8_.f_sXUeBzWcseuHJI3H6k4Pl.m_JMTKHDfh _CzNDGS7hAtrL.VUWUvB9_YA.P8UdAJOD4k5.tqebQAXMFB9C4R7JHxWORVCBt2Xp7l7rYzSneh9 um.zmXJGh4LmCC7EkM3eVq2pqxVyvCCpAEjOoG26otTN8iSyfJFHYlPKdvp4BKq_yJgoKmhmFCD2 .C4jNG24tAoy31eAkRt7jsAIyxdKdJcZAJPjlv_9ZFEo2Dm_x77pEO6B6fpYVn_LT6RjjkFnhPb_ sAoh9looKiQlCzgpEfMOV47hH.PfMkDtj7Sh5HOXWFXl7LU27_q_rBg3sGOcBBNUuS1RwBoK5tOL fPtC4MI7CDcFIk_e7xEdGW9Y_pSEvlP7AZXZ49.MGRg29Hfw2AXjRq.VVPExUIZsgItWDZWMBunA BxEc8SwVzX9Hi.wyJpLjkzLuMxPzW2gz2rlo_UYhqvVlCWTTGC_MAbE2p7xgqlAY1DJz2SSW7i9t 7dwqoLdwEcu0RLVImdPSEzAt2eNOLWbJwv90F6_rrV1.DYDugdjHaQluWe5zzsrEx_i9m7DYxCvA GxKac5TX5lXGZdB0wudPxUpvm46pqGd1d4L6X5ttTAHwWHgnp9rO.pvixQ36A6EFFIasqRPeN3i2 4eY5xt.JYr79ei_BmGkhse4ZkN1TV4uxYRqLpxMEla7_P99_rHu59OuHnbC2BBXn23dG6Kx.3eRg dUQJ1PXMEm8IumR6NtJn8442iqa7xKPaSU6D6gJtCPNR.zt1lXUMS6m12l9riGeyvezkwDTEsWOL TMzNb9W.b X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 15:12:47 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-28mz5 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7cba51e32bb5dbac53c91388e5aa375d; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 15:10:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:43:06 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:10:37 +0800 Message-ID: <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 4572 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text > editors" writes: > >>>> 3.16 Group Topics >>>> >>>> If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to gro= up >>>> them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs group= s over >>>> here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups o= r so?) >>>> you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. Y= ou can >>>> even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs >>>> groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! >>> >>> Thanks. >>> I also partially understand the joke. >>> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is >>> technical or still part of the joke. >>> >>> You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the >>> Emacs groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! >>> >>> The paragraph structure is basically: >>> >>> >>> >>> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself >>> is not understood. >> ... >>> Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts. >> >> They do not. End of discussion. > > I kindly disagree. 3.16 Group Topics section was difficult to > understand _for me_ precisely because of the jokes. I will elaborate > below. > >> Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately >> tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''. >> They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they >> report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't >> understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc. >> >> Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they >> appear. > > Upon hearing about the problem and checking the specifically indicated > sections in the manual, I tend to agree with the person being offended. > Not because I am not offended (I am not), but because, as I stated > earlier, I believe that jokes should not complicate the understanding. > >> Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen >> other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such >> individual. And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a >> problem with the jokes therein. Just read it again until you do. >> How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it >> at least once or twice? > > Absence of bug reports does not imply that the manual is easy to > understand. I do not say that it is incomprehensible, but the examples I > pointed to do make it harder to understand. Won't it be an improvement > to make the manual easier to understand for more people? > >> XcmsCIELabClipL >> >> This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the >> screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness >> (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the >> gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond >> maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the >> same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab >> coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See >> `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary. >> >> Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes >> of crusaders? > > I do not see any problem with the provided paragraph. Yes, it contains a > lot of unfamiliar terms, but they appear to be necessary to describe the > technical information. In contrast, jokes do not convey any new > information. They are good to have as an _occasional_ distraction - a > break that may be necessary to simplify understanding; but not good when > they make understanding more difficult. > > Imagine a joke inserted into your example, on top of all other > unfamiliar terms: > >> This brings the encountered out-of-gamut (not gonad, mind you) color >> specification into the screen's color gamut by reducing or >> increasing (let's not think further) CIE metric lightness (L*) in the >> CIE Lab color space until the color is within (mmm...) the gamut. > > Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes > when trying to understand the above sentence? I didn't see ``let's not think further'' in the Gnus manual. And no, your additions do not make it harder for me to understand that sentence. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 10:17:06 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 15:17:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53765 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPPiT-0007RN-RM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:17:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39386) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPPiO-0007Qn-Tv for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:17:04 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPPiI-00014Q-Q7; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:16:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=q70cIzlahtcAtZDchNRFl4k5nw6Sfxtq5bGJPrvnIrI=; b=IZhcpjrOFTzW J3TiNsfks0FzR7KEap6/U5whB3IveeGKgsRtE+JI9hzw4bK/oJ1GFzZXOuR1Xf/fru/5BQcjZHWKZ odVZTjZQiO3siDW3dtMinJjUmOXW1RX6Gob42miHFwEropT2A0zee+nYUI5Ra3IxgPCM8Se6CuuyY YZ6VwRGR10Oep2FWI/UC3Nn+PoaMrpehTIQyx58HQeHxld6i3Wn1jq1jp7mG11ZBUfof3yZLyXWpR 1YNg6SeFIDzh/uoiyxht0AnL+0oZe989AEPwXhAeq4pjlcfBGBaXLBhci21SzUt3xCxomVNQzvcVx D3cGtt8poeRpoHU+E9p0+Q==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPPiI-0000S9-A1; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:16:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 17:17:09 +0200 Message-Id: <83357hpksq.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87edr17brr.fsf@yahoo.com> (message from Po Lu on Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:09:28 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> <87edr17brr.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, dick.r.chiang@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Po Lu > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Ihor Radchenko , > 61325@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:09:28 +0800 > > dick writes: > > [drivel elided] > > *plonk*. > > Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies > from being recorded on the bug tracker? That's up to Michael, not me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 10:43:19 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 15:43:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53826 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPQ7q-00089A-Rr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:43:19 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:47912) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPQ7o-000891-3m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:43:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPQ7n-00047z-Gf for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:43:15 -0500 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPQ7m-0006D8-07 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 10:43:15 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA70403AF; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 16:43:09 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JLH73qy_-xJs; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 16:43:08 +0100 (CET) From: Akib Azmain Turja DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1675784588; bh=Dv8k1eke3sqYxXqi3r39p6w0t1nwWW+hh7iD93UZvQA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=CbSMYV3jXWrBpGBAbYBMecsO5TFdp8I1zRIkwi7Yf9ZXhqHIQ8s/QVwM+IpawH2I5 sosKwoK7d9LqPx6Ji9LKi9SZPDEjOeEW9p/8mhVsmC8GKUl0ANRiXlOg3NtoiOiEFt aToZgaBhPzfse1+9ZQfBR+c8ZQ5FXeHXsXFlu2tIS+BJHA0XKLqiWWxHw4UQV7xJ9F FfeF6gOI+LN0XmJINe4n+I+n4AOChJPkb+euCX1dbrEl9L8tNKQMbP20x1uN0Dr336 nQVByUr8yV+z/mYfVeMxi4bdRF36Q1HMXNNoSfMZ4qXSNoE/RLEU4kjDmEk4v37qvM YcAT6vGzYbrlw== To: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu via's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 20:36:34 +0800") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 21:41:08 +0600 Message-ID: <871qn1tre3.fsf@disroot.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=akib@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Po Lu , Ihor Radchenko , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" writes: > 3.16 Group Topics > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o= ver > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s= o?) > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You = can > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! > > I do understand the rest as well. > >> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic, >> which is present in the same paragraph. > > There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes > about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other > newsgroup? > > Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get > a life! There are many who are still growing up. Is GNUS only intended for adults? I don't think so. But still that sex topic included. However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is even more offensive (for many): Documentation is like sex: when it is good, it is very, very good; and when it is bad, it is better than nothing. =E2=80=94Dick Brandon Why a few GNU manuals tend to be for adults? =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@hostux.social Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEyVTKmrtL6kNBe3FRVTX89U2IYWsFAmPicRQACgkQVTX89U2I YWszog//Ytq5GLQ1Cvd8q8hxxhGtxqb/H8r0IJqhaGn/SwizRrIrvb4zvJ9jwh0t Hb6xWIZzKoqozVZ+BP/c/JigL6Y+sFoiBrDfpZAHAP4u1jrxQp6U1tM+MkJLaO3q mwhsNIp9vMwlfUONQ5m1QE2yZSRrTXVwquhOF8bQ2lKLuwMk4CK8AKSPhZbTGjX3 JM14icgIXRRiPzqsXBnJEwlJQ3Oc99ieJ3uyWaVoXolwGYx9waom02+S+SBOVjiu KdzCEzE9GD1svShQXMeTfpQM+jjLBYi/b3cPRKlN996X626ISr2uqTnEjGoOVTSo US10C4B78qKERO3Na8oyjA2YFOzP4bAekJvH7INDxohlQSY2hexP7lcH58MSODhz 1qQZexKaXM5MkjxhCPjuOwObalgip31SFS4x+4v0kVBrfvav6n077+cd/HkLc0F8 JAGAWFhHmaQ+Od6aipR4Dmxhx/C7doQ8YJlfyrREEh2sHYDTQNEXMjvDnZUhJeTW OnTGjZrtqan3D7aKE+a2je+XZAJ0MwpPRIPCNlaZiCyRlFsqyQV+RuckNV2w6iWl zP2GE68fnHVu9dl3M5iaSl5ltOsiINvVyHbrJVKluQinCEZzWP4jr1PQk7uwFslC aPgs94x2zGFkDWmrPBKe4hco7PcAWTs+pOmiq+LaagdM1Cs7/8I= =3CJq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 11:14:46 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 16:14:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53844 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPQcI-0000WO-3U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:14:46 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:58985) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPQcG-0000WB-Lc for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:14:45 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FDA1240732 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 17:14:37 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675786478; bh=fJBsCeSIla1uf6rSheTZ9HYpVEFH5BUmfstf/DwF+LY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=IhnPfQDJJ54hgRg5QfCMWDUo9Yckb6gWOGvz5vrK9Yd88RZFwsSNqEMzwYDpGTanN 6/pejZboGtKUeKXJXeJujP+mdOf6vQelkkDFAHuzrMdlKo07KxEWdEbmvx2tEHDohj o7Ehem1Ct1kWeOkHHNPwQfLiyb/EXGx7JnCJ8X/1G+fCDdOMS1acAhWjZYwkra6PzQ v5GPxlOU7iwM/s5cpotJ5qBTw4RD6+J1FDcz10sBl0CqftdVBD+2SwZ0iX6NsouW9Y wQNvz4YK/7IFxsBzBZ+384CrvE5pYpI7XGnGuIvgaMcibgt4kAc46cb8MclNEOjqAb 6JVblAQ5sNYAA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PB7Vz5RFxz6tnW; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 17:14:35 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 16:15:11 +0000 Message-ID: <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: >> Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes >> when trying to understand the above sentence? > > I didn't see ``let's not think further'' in the Gnus manual. Sorry, I do not understand this sentence. > And no, your additions do not make it harder for me to understand that > sentence. I see. Then, we are in clear disagreement here. Maybe others can chime in to clarify if jokes in 3.16 Group Topics section of GNUS manual hamper the understanding or not. Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes, and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other people prefer. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 14:45:50 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 19:45:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54108 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPTuX-0006Of-Ky for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:45:50 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:54380) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPTuV-0006OS-Ok for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:45:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPTuF-0002Nx-Cd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:45:46 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPTu5-0002bB-3M for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:45:31 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pPTtz-0007Ig-1c for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 20:45:15 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Pankaj Jangid Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 01:15:07 +0530 Message-ID: <87357hz2d8.fsf@codeisgreat.org> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:WJ80GKQngx/ibLbvgKNRFCqskS0= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Ihor Radchenko writes: > My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is > technical or still part of the joke. > > You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the > Emacs groups or the sex groups—or both! > > The paragraph structure is basically: > > > > Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself > is not understood. But you have understood the above structure. Then what is the issue? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 14:55:44 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 19:55:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54120 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPU48-0006kG-KE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:55:44 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:33805) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPU46-0006jw-6q for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 14:55:42 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A667240132 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 20:55:33 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675799736; bh=+fexs07HqxRJoqpTya/P1CNdjE+xVRJi9xPHC28eUdk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=Rg3MxoR95gRLnDUy+TNz8FPs5r0Nw1IDeTLlF8L0SiaDGxFcb0xUcZSlS2Bviq3zq FowTSrmIH2uMZbGjcQ2VVGdTmIkZ5xsk8yE2vjclg54V0vZklHfCXnUCv3axy8iP/O yu6h2j40/GQFHS3iZlIqpETYL//JdhxWXq8/Et0p0yKPmoAIomOGMvuh5AB2Asej4U FqFaBh58qOO8MMzGL51H31wfcORJa/KJ4fQVoyoE8UBK4bcINJzbTvVKY0pQt1lb4u /Vq5yJ8gQdc07lzcUABJV4nMXqvhK6SYvvnYfs67976I+Ry8tyVGwUEREg1B9+bo3N TQNwLJlZ/2JiA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PBDPw35STz6tmv; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 20:55:32 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Pankaj Jangid Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87357hz2d8.fsf@codeisgreat.org> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87357hz2d8.fsf@codeisgreat.org> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 19:56:12 +0000 Message-ID: <87mt5pdzc3.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Pankaj Jangid writes: >> The paragraph structure is basically: >> >> >> >> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself >> is not understood. > > But you have understood the above structure. Then what is the issue? The issue is that it took an extra effort to understand it. Not because of technical details, but simply because of presence of jokes. IMHO, the primary aim of manuals is explaining technical information to the users. Jokes that help to understand or at least does not hurt are totally fine. But when jokes makes the information harder to understand, isn't it against the aim of writing a good manual? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7be5a65232282cf20aea42ffcc613eed; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 01:28:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 16:15:11 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:28:49 +0800 Message-ID: <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 948 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Sorry, I do not understand this sentence. The phrase, ``let's not think further'', deliberately implies that whoever is reading the manual should not think about the topic any more. That phrase does not appear in the Gnus manual. > Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs > survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes, > and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture > compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other > people prefer. What happens with all such a polls is that the mob which has been trying to remove all traces of possibly offensive material from software will arrange for themselves to be represented disproportionately relative to the majority of normal people who do not care at all. Instead of a poll, I'd rather we stay with the status quo, since it evidently already works. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 23:32:03 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 04:32:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54483 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc7m-0000LY-Ip for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:32:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46856) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc7k-0000L3-AB for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:32:01 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc7d-0000uc-RP; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=lAzzkx7pLs6ArbaZzeGPsYPJVGNMuUcxWkempVT37xA=; b=bPrasSTPDcZp fbJK8TgZFM4+9if0a4Ajpl+9UnbSskOFcvmPb+EiEfSK2KDtKW1O5zk1J0eZA3/ntXbhgHsWQfGUr C0U/5tk0Zgri5GybmmpgMZ/Kv75y3WD/MPPchMGsASk4dZ1B1vdV81Sdi8Il7AmIw2k4dWTYWH1DD 9Fxoy3V2S1GwuyeWe1NQWoYNgtgYudusaddATS70GwGRirXI13ZM1TErxbQUHT8CUQgXOrwiPMnob 91GzDHCiiHPvjr9/8IBI/3nvEQOY3sz8ttFtSDjDi8anVOiae0a0liQcm0tzAYxaJkFw3oet7ssYw 6ln7tgAo9LruPxVAF474yA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc7d-00024K-Hr; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > Note: > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > find this section insulting. I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting. I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny. I can't make sense of it at all. Would someone who understands it please explain the joke? > > ‘z’ > > Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’). This doesn’t really exit > > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I’m not > > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. I find it disparaging to Gnus itself. If we think some detail of Gnus is somehow problematical, the manual is the wrong place to say so. Rather, Gnus developers should take up the issue and decide whether this behavior is useful or not. If useful, explain why; if not, perhaps delete it. > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over > > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) > > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can > > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > > groups or the sex groups—or both! Go wild! This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex. I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny. This part and the rest (what, two groups or so?) > > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. stereotypes the users and mocks them. That is likely to make the readers feel attacked. We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power which nobody should have. However, jokes that make people feel mocked _because they use Gnus_ are unfriendly to our users. We should remove those. > > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring > > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do > > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > > attention! > > > > For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of > > word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we > > .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that > > make people feel uncomfortable. > > > > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also > > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting > > files on file system? > Gnus is a news reader. Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in > its manual are those who read net news. That's not a kind attitude toward the reader. Since you don't know what a > kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that > paragraph. That is very unkind to the reader. Users don't enjoy feeling puzzled about important parts of the subject matter. The manual should _help_ users understand the subject matter -- that's its purpose. I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers who do not know. If not, we should add that. Then this joke -- if it is worth keeping -- should have a cross reference to that explanation. So, IS this joke worth keeping? Although I am an American, I don't get the joke at all. It seems to be more smirking than funny. Can anyone explain the intended meaning? If that is more funny than the actual wording, maybe we could change the wording to be clear. But if we don't do that, deleting the joke could be better. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 07 23:48:37 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 04:48:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54494 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPcNp-0000oZ-6C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:48:37 -0500 Received: from sonic308-31.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.130.230]:44967) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPcNn-0000oK-Ng for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:48:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675831709; bh=a/htXhr15OlyJbkr0TOD1ZlSTQKVIWkG0Ol6OYUTZ8M=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=XYcNxzOagVQYnp7yeWUZgKkw5XSv9zDiAe7dvRspPNMzth/LOLMbHR4QhylWu25kB2JxSYAkPGWjHwg5Kemedqq/n4Lb7cOHbvUqHMW2fUIgNmkn+7o5P9Y8P5DdQg8FTUP9J5NCdmCUUWBRLQBkO1R+rNtrYwmkPq5FnsCdV986sYhjnHTvWda/Z+Ja14DLq5luH//IA0Z4UgvapOK9m94fd+8ShAG8UEWhuYORGcFx09quJfPIbXy5YDMnByF1cd4Qdsfp31Jo3JA8nez9zlJNPDjo89hlj94Bxqk6zP+LRufsY3KOVxFObfKf1Cuj+W2zzkj99nzanKI+BpRj6A== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675831709; bh=I53uFjBVtGDlfLCA52JSUh7EOtbYc0KAFP10Gpp2G7h=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=sQrQfw9HiWpoz0KUBf7sJVFYdMaakATIyYBHEfq1q/sWFyLyPJjUNRplNUGnQ0x9VfXKaecqZexGYBJipgMs9b3fSOrYzdGY51xmRngaKJsRgdkIweLfCgTaZ2OpP7JpwERsRnbJ1n30HmKMxhWstvtEfPDJJdD5ugeEwDDMmJEEqAs6v0ppo2zAQ7UzKluTlNRGzxGZdYyvgXKPtHYwtoA8fPHMzqtneKXTRsv+CEp4L7lE9YjJbpWhmY/dTlGjbdEFgfst59DbptIBpeelaVdjUNIvuBvZCYD4SADSogqLtMZiicrzDzAoZ7cR9UBTSWN0FygyAlBlYQxXQDbUIg== X-YMail-OSG: _Pw_tHMVM1k8be4lh.lBYFBZV9gK_9CztSXVYSJplKzJNRCMHFq6aX7tOIbkcOz 5QotJT.C7bkt31RdSIjM8MhVCafeIyXp4Cl8rVH1C_jIbSeHbco9wjekqnCNd5vOb.Lijp2_wQEV GyNzoN0b4K2I3Jiye8MRiKbvuY7mqiPQc9V7ABY1nf3302Y3ZVVs6CoAFASHcPCBr2BkeNKcahj3 ixZyz4.gZMWtyIMdfSazyzdLXbK9Wci8rtd6NUGnx3Ihqi_yKh8CjeLylWv5DnKaGWBry8sLlwg6 pt4RNODTt.c0X8o9GTKfqnpKQJ2VNLgCsV.bXGY6pmMBPFr4_kRX8Af29vtyRE9t5UTMhGpXomau k3V7.L9JQ71xf9Q12ya2VbWA4Wy3TKHeZPQo0dghhDc7xu5JqXsgUKIdxbbTO2iXLHDCJWQFTvmC A8r473QNX_FV5eIdx4gxgpSeC76sGNfYqg.xXC8FIaRuRTArr3wjfooGwhvLblneBXSkWAy0Ynba _qrvwCP5se_AsbWVUNGD_lHBxkeYO4zeZorTn7XHuaPyQ7vvOyXWweovRFLfNsOgS.rlMR1B66Ci 7xpZ586GHDIdaqDhc920xZhlPO351El5gzYj1iFCCMTOulS7gvDh69W3wDNSajlQopvmCvNuAXTg QCJXcIt5w3DHeXf5JN3lkiHYKlINBelyKeHEcYmnyK1Kz.IfXgFkUiYNm.1FsStE8mBlZiAm1f_W 93AVRKtlLn6oZ3RxlDzBFuGp3KI2.VaRlBOXGTL8DdXzbSBBsW_9KoOg9K.0XxJtIVksF3hOCBGv h6iVlbEz.fqY4KJ.M_RHEMj266BJU.1AkmQ_x7jTNlIqd7lqFUv8I.uDxtS32tWo7lX27.CatNxr QpwSLksqXIAsc3Ao0RbhW2.I_mK.d3Si0XIympTCRkxTUR96.rR0_HIUVTaxNqpDcd8i8_..FdrE BwtMw3uEyOdy1O3mdDWfIo9ZIck_PsZYGlF6v.rl6w3AvwcISoy4fTkljl7404cxieg7IvgygAL. hvkvrBkVaFlXNaXRyQV_jYkNiN_sWbnEV7lVwCKSJZAv_bT5ldTDT98uK0t62MPHA25HrwUiZiud 79GiiY9rKKguBTqXJ1pFpjjFAGriZr9hOh7EQW6eBef.q3V8cSciqpnWTnIzW4H4TFzAPoa9uIzM wAuvruR50RoK8_VXUvPQ5SRZTlt06faXqi.TYu9SPxnYyWChugIPbhx7yjHQw.zIcDnxfc78u6TK koS7Mh_5BBUoHJeC0oU.Nrczcm2rmA0fn2DH3Ps6PVyJKVtOoAXVY57pnJbH4lZxTexCShQspZx1 pxC3D.HZ6_i1qWoS7PUYue6jnnY1nXLm7sJg.KRMeVK2qwdOU.USmkFCukXEl3P_Uee.CjwaJ514 lG8CDnqyZMk2pHeQFfo_nLlJiEfW5V6KRvYzV8Q6YaWWZ9H7NSXPfs1p7CLs99QbJ.LTZJCi7Clt fk5hTJWwYb5xZ2094Tt41SVGbNhzVc1rYxTAzBN8nXD6PXwaY58Ai1NNcOZ3105hXkdMgpMH5K6A jz2onSAYL0nxHHZUK7ON9Uo5D0OWWgIE_QPJlmpxYWLm_mOFod2FJJM9V4uGUSmzt1ZmQTw2UtnJ HVqV8Bm_rQZkq_aa5T4l_om_2gnTI5rhzLE81hDANNZD0TEixtyHqOx4kA_tk8FdrJB.ZPVrkMlw RQC4sZhf3X6j1q1QewdPTCdd1VcEcA08XvvqYy5ou1PzSTIHyd.LkX69tH9sqlfbsKssFYf_ynk3 JqzpfvKG56zvzr7GLwFtcShvtdIQqaf1QFoxrFvM59J4JjlHGq4EUEIEWUktAmsUPpo.qa4n89ti pVH5nJU9H5yCnhwOSr55.qmHC3K8pzBmVj433ezE6Qdgyot9emVKFaFALVFk7kVawLy6q5mlbuW8 0pjTshaBfHul_R4gdVgpER6HvMQ88OthqdAhJPs_xWPQf4zyDcec5ZZ3_njb3Oshm8QPHIXXzap8 89qN0NjTsyAv9KrPS4hknucmidDFHDkasckBuINKO5FWxHomB62na1KRiRWVt2AT5Ekawpu5pn0C ftH5he_7Y2KKkqL.aeGKOP2OLO2zBHHChjtrAK3aqyV3gwSwLRI2aB3qzNLOyaBt5xIBT8.NaBEY nelU6xeZJxd.nBZbBUjSVshA.JpfZA4cY2HlU1nFoLhB9KX6Io7M_eHm2EqTO3eS54_V0VPv5Qqf Rx8dMN3rsmuwsaSp8PFklJZWiMNbU.GCwKdtYD2w_Z6QPAt0pxYrX0ACAGGCTfLK5MOdWbjdcj1s ByRuyqInpMms- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 04:48:29 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-nc5k6 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 25aa284b9571d1f0557942cc8fe3eb17; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 04:46:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 12:46:12 +0800 Message-ID: <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1544 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman writes: > This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex. > I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny. This part If you replace ``sex'' with, say, ``kayaking'', the meaning of the joke stays unchanged. The joke is that it is possible to sort completely unrelated newsgroup into categories. > Since you don't know what a > > kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that > > paragraph. > > That is very unkind to the reader. Users don't enjoy feeling puzzled > about important parts of the subject matter. The manual should _help_ > users understand the subject matter -- that's its purpose. > > I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers > who do not know. If not, we should add that. It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files should be preferred instead. > Then this joke -- if it is worth keeping -- should have a cross reference > to that explanation. > > So, IS this joke worth keeping? > > Although I am an American, I don't get the joke at all. It seems to > be more smirking than funny. > > Can anyone explain the intended meaning? If that is more funny than > the actual wording, maybe we could change the wording to be clear. > But if we don't do that, deleting the joke could be better. It is trying to make people stop using kill files and use score files instead, because they are supposed to be better. I have never used a score file. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 03:11:24 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 08:11:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54717 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPfY4-0000am-7W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 03:11:24 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:56663) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPfXy-0000aR-HZ for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 03:11:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1675843869; bh=WRW8N0RqDBteI7uj3WVWpjqRxt9Q+kP1hASJPByk7vY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=PCXrWAAkXj7FC6e9zRPb5AIOROaZ6KxtZ6bQZ2Y+ybZqqxcllUQI3ovhsirXDqXiu zihrVY4wmwBuj6ZZnDhrUW8lczvtVgw6b54GcAHSr0xl48Pr63IYHrKVkStQOYZtHT M5v/axy5/Rkmt6e2vWjPtca8y0HLzu3zf/Ki9Rf9ye6Jj/d7v9Ar2r9SoiQFho4eDe yex0mVtrcFczwoknGNLAPoxV/F8lFzkf7ibhm8oaTX6vtrXbpFAbW2EecjyPpio2+3 1SD+zaE06jxeoy6LmcCWm1S9z52RfxV77vy27Bu2L2NwoYihfwc+aeDIyNPVOuEr0Q 9zQaftEQKEAHA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.39.22]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MXXuB-1p65h53bOp-00Z2qe; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:08 +0100 From: Michael Albinus To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83357hpksq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 17:17:09 +0200") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> <87edr17brr.fsf@yahoo.com> <83357hpksq.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:07 +0100 Message-ID: <87v8kcmvac.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:qgWsOyw4j1NRt/SMc7w12sbkNbrj1eo372d1et9oxELfJniyIJS igplViae89jT3Tw/rJ/+FthM+eaFykTwZXpY6maBbXvsSl3+9EvFC/OssZmZwCxpB3yS4i3 bl3VR+emdjJ0ulR7NPbPGZBTIWsH/wDM11O1QErZFS6nYqq4rBItoYEDJlHkC+jjgQgvYIn qb7l/ERJwxuXd/wuF2CPw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+6TVu9SozHs=;v0TrnxMgcRdXuQYiy6VUX8YmNmW C3QCKx5/+AOUnCHOyklP0G+PYPSYSYG225QoOT+jZ7YGB5O1jaoQy9FYFzWMZ/fSLVYisN2eA IydcU49cGBwl87mjUTrGz7xRGWdaxUHzA1fi+b0TZbKFJPn5t81N1f2dNXzUCYU+ZSpii1W4U Lu1+JeaUnPXpwbcxdhXtoVigSScBPfZlyXMAyrjj/3DVqBQaPXknbcVX80oZlBD/zWQ0efW/8 Y3r4qGVch0RJsCC9N7HvamgJSlpAU7jnjwfA4iQolNYvEhkgFwgDChdIKveAMf1hmy1N3Sup6 zOUEySWCH3KPCt4JwVVpBdar9YY2Vjj9Ucunky7t4tQDU5nhv7sQyFsXc4VjfbWHvl7NE3t0N ZonWiio+6B5s+r197XvhCrz/W3LuBHYZMX2Y2HikQTc+tvwzGaujqbnCriTxv3tZjS0QE+Qmv S5vYy6hYqQLjOApQfda57T7O1pkXGYao0zz336ib6QQ7ncle7e55U6TerwUdb5XTbYSjoNHjg KkZOpeotYxcROVQl0ZFrZ+wpFJ8I9BeY8dstHew//wK3IMP0Rn62yEOpKXeKOiG2TWFZHOfzA WZNjAskbgZv16CQPT1GccjYBXZctAuPuCD32dBDKVniA3F5RgF1OkWv0+UcxetaOXq4TKdxWf dJrlTN8rHTOOE3uYhq2Sl1mvHd5NIMnW7xZv6yR53dg/BygZSAg6fEIZbP+wtgg2umRLLVnyG 23CvC82nrtkCucwwPSgWRU7CjV7ST8SKcc4B4VaTUSZ6Byg+7tEtnd5eXGi242EVNHV6TC6zx Hn9AytKrVfJl/FIBcSJWyPsqbG84tWFiLCt8wqt4XTlx44AUR+43OyPkWRgo40xY1n4JHRfIi VkrpdCoiBoiuumby9DSmQyMC0Q4mFYYrXrt3P9Be50UYMjf6SyB54XeDOnDOKAGNuSymeNVqk yn/V7vpGj49tQ5zTkCpU7gdEPlI= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu , yantar92@posteo.net, dick.r.chiang@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: Hi Eli, >> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies >> from being recorded on the bug tracker? > > That's up to Michael, not me. In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the next 4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down? Best regards, Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 06:39:46 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 11:39:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPini-0006GQ-AN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:39:46 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:41255) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPinf-0006G7-Vj for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:39:44 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CFBA24004B for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:39:35 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675856377; bh=eQ0wedftkhfs1pc6xq5hNy5P6wsKRbgCio6LoIZCXJA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=jMX+Av+o+mDBUbDO7MmS9WIqDcHkyqlr2U5MQ66iK3pMLatDW6//LOUT/fVD6rt2g zveK8Taqy9sxFf6wNS/UKROV6AZVR9II2bdBYwW44H1cmCwHfZIVQagv6daoqeGJe6 x70eSyjlvfGYpDqgK05mdZTAwswDsKDLgjuQltkOas76bLh9V81YWAzn4eemYo54bt hqqao45ImZRGNn09vl8wEiGC/8nsQnmMMKdSuZjLABz050t5AAJtuKvHsi3Ov9o1NR +eLPfoFAHkXF/XMIe7Y55NfkkSLUkL9q14FIs0WtWpeSCkEhsVjRHk+Ch8AB2G/bet bsxzFB7ZKlB6w== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PBdM748bZz9rxG; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:39:31 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:40:09 +0000 Message-ID: <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> Sorry, I do not understand this sentence. > > The phrase, ``let's not think further'', deliberately implies that > whoever is reading the manual should not think about the topic any more. > > That phrase does not appear in the Gnus manual. Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to clarify of the manual? >> Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs >> survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes, >> and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture >> compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other >> people prefer. > > What happens with all such a polls is that the mob which has been trying > to remove all traces of possibly offensive material from software will > arrange for themselves to be represented disproportionately relative to > the majority of normal people who do not care at all. Can't we just add an extra answer to observe if such people are over-represented? Just asking if they enjoy, stay neutral, or feel offended about the version with jokes? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 06:44:13 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 11:44:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54921 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPis1-0006Ng-0q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:44:13 -0500 Received: from sonic307-29.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.134.228]:38402) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPiry-0006NQ-4C for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:44:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675856642; bh=SNlThkRuo3smwml/+KcSBJ28Phtu75mPEe5PZcGwgSE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=nvYQVV6wBCcC/74dAqAr/oupADuSmN0g5V8nQNn8cfXfnhiIoTyd90CfUkGTndAa6p1ZX4fA/ywR6zrCimawE7YyLybh6hLYW7AaS8DKF2bfi+i+Nho8SaFBSHRmMhN8X8JpvyAmNI/Y+UFDZcMULZFTsi6rYq484aQ/srZHURzH0H8Qvt9vFXO/te2rBvv1j5IRjZ3ud2QVBL83cyxyAyzax2/jopBUZn1GixtcxwksoW5eL+Nf6qM6FNYpdTYRsepwwFENa7isdpfX5wi/XRzfdkCJ+Txy7Kh3BNkp5MtQh8bOwdbENLXwKnfY07Dvd3+RYFkoHwDoUvrKnaWUZQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675856642; bh=j8UoZYh8htUhJxiz/KqT7RJ9D4FXZ9tfdTG6DX4JkUb=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=V4Ag7NXfjXnnanbYD1NasJceuJF9Yad88Y7pbxx4hmL40nZqFKu2xEdm4E9D1tiKvX6GyiBgqhikbGhOIhovYitpfR6fC54HU0nAQH6x/HaXed+sI4wEPais6dux2NCg8m7UM7W/E4zWTUOVh1duUD8QwGq1e2BfCsSg27Lq+md5KPiQkgVM9SFI0LAn9Qs/YA0DhJK7DvZE+FGQs5eFvOzC8yoCRG9LLKF+dMfnIZubOGtoFc7/pu86UihJEtUlSuD9MQI7kxkjr0uTAv1DwfnPSukeYSlRFwOEFGNG1npXYkQroRg7SFzfkyCjs73fipgQQmBWRv4x4XEgjy9eSw== X-YMail-OSG: mwuLtugVM1kzDUSoe6TB7Vcms4ThuwjyZAuxt68xO.p74AYgA6Km32AMblfLRGI .RHj9qa3fS3iA1oPTXX5ZzYa91XUQ2yMS3MU4NuvQQ8jYTp5L1iahRk_RBKMlbFpy1BLRf6zcd74 WR1qFcRsDE_4m_yP7Zkp_fBowDeLgUjrxd5VpXM3fYUvJV4muOkcLdBxOlsXfGJdeSdScoV.MG2o cmRpuufYAe0WVUSP2E2Q37lFjEy1LvSLeMp241kIMz3Mxf_H2mmbp33rlzLEc1dTsVc7ZdExoYl9 O4LE9L7zoUw97nI2UIy.3X9yy.OUXmnDQCz4SNdptDIW_5FCeGQt7tZsRbPCA17iiED.aPL2bxmV sahNz065KcBPqJPUjftkg_XIxFsY.4Evwax_Zg.94i8vy0aVIWEHELjujH5Ai_J3OXki_6MhTpKL K2d8P91apKwgZl0kPcKZftQlg504g..SfGf3pXO3EEyhBUwmAAcRz.JtOCMGWXcgyyVWcuEBjMEB AXYz5wPQ.ieXfgUOHGg1MHuvuVAESkGDC0Lo8ae6TWaUr.GZf3f8HPJ9SNaOlhH2xDDIjmwHwMBn 8tszIWlV.cyTDkEgWOtUz4jV5JNiiyNzPrFAtLeZgBNxhx3tljXVatJmzwNB1ihhyHzhAuCCm51t Cxa_TEiPyKI.r8uiEIEmKnumMYnzSW6S1elfZpXQ0jDcnfC2pmQ5Rvzz0_ZZtMk.2z81gYEIm.yW 4O386BCKdNuBVFz2wFfdoTzbA82wSSdoiEq7eP8VEya1.C96SFrRpXHQrNlMlg3TEa6MGZRqcCKq uUSn3063iMsV_3mwojO8qnIKpqgJ6HgWbexIn2faERF2alzwtX5ehfwEt6ZeW30QrWLQEh9KBh10 TassnewDhnIhYxiCO8hB4U6LumIb4qAQiZNa1kOtE2hMxbJsV77HMs9hFQLPaEV.TjkxFTNf.tDD UccRtXd2zSK8NfpotOGLd6lU32izqu7BfXJ.HD9CMU8SSE8cYwAySnCgrGJo5zS8SXQL8bqy6s_l O62P2gJf.I_zhn7.1s9oR6sbZLvwrhXm0qTSxAas4alGbVSrwOM1Aa9B0vRb.Zp12k3ofoYae_nW CbzSJG3qzq0DYXKo0rbkXW0PC7Sfw.YVRGi1TnjY77JVkNFNqHfJBwG9Lu.zfJvkZeEeyawXdQnP wMMWjloZ0KBOVs5Zc2Ki7_d8YI7d9heeQebgFLSo_RjATyvMuXWzUfwIaw3F2YMUNMEg_hOPSfG9 ReXp2x019ynoOgxllD3D2jjn9A714gAnF4dxoXP6BboZMpBf53P4URxwI30tbnakIvQBl5BtzkQj ug6RLPiyVY1B2NFS2oJpu89awGUhZD50hdutrNyhRpV128IttpzyDj6LMsbx6VcFdyXAyQ4Bu8UK 3E1v.WpPrizF0DUCSNOAabKvgrXPvw.hKxtUqpJU89ew2TI8nvapo3bvSZFtXIZM6id8jIrDjTiN tgtj6Epr3lAmMqJdPPK8Byw6Hc8XSk08IKRIjkmBE02I4CK7aOcu_gFf.WX116GBrVL6c8Zi5dzw iw3wT9kNBvx61lEb.Q0NAMSko3QWonoq0q8wsJ.od3oxR.6j2W5sEcmwMzgaS.yhioeFJvj2w5gl _U40UxroVrqfCnfxYlCYZ5y7gVnZVAD0xfGRPpDEdylwuUpNV6yk8M_UQAeJgE3WGSX1etnJvaI. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0fb67695224f61db34e19a4097001e31; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:41:59 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:40:09 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 19:41:47 +0800 Message-ID: <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 425 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual > because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to > clarify of the manual? Yes, when it is clear to most people that they do not impair the ability to understand the manual. Many people do not understand English. Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 06:58:57 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 11:58:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54937 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPj6H-0006pW-Gt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:58:57 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:53285) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPj6F-0006pI-Kp for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 06:58:56 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FC0524021D for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:58:49 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675857529; bh=f7inLHl48HRsetFFUvlr7MSCu15v3+F3LmHsSDYd8S0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=P0HKbrErHe8twBWLrTT6ZK+cL3LELfKa2/BVzjZ3UvrTgN1WEyrQkMcwh5ARoqhv+ wBtGTvSQE1eEKjkj+37gpfo0L+hMzrCFnG3M3ADRpA/DbUx7/gVEImsyPfS6DohvRm yIfO244Yr9OGFhQv9dqlsStA6PvriA4ScNwam9/T0lOPiVavNj5AyeCJyNLcSB2oMx q8z6y8OWq1qZWqRZX5yl1cUU2c/f+WuTGhVuQgW5xNlUt5fWwfA5SpUOIRt5yAlWCc WSkY6wgdtxWOSPEI7EyVg47b+hmOqdi3ak/5ZsUtkA9ubgYK2p/7cx7WsWzjCsHiCV dkfCiD2V67Pzg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PBdnK6lVQz9rxF; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:58:45 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:59:23 +0000 Message-ID: <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual >> because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to >> clarify of the manual? > > Yes, when it is clear to most people that they do not impair the ability > to understand the manual. I agree that jokes that do not impair the ability to understand the manual are ok. I disagree that jokes in "8 Scoring" and "3.16 Group Topics" do not impair the understanding. For me, section 8 and section 3.16 are harder to understand because of jokes. I even missed some of the technical statements. A note "3.15 Exiting Gnus" does not impair my understanding. Just make me feel confused about what it means. > Many people do not understand English. > Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then? Please, do not use appeal to ridicule. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 07:31:03 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 12:31:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54966 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjbK-0001kw-Rx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:31:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54324) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjbH-0001hc-KI for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:31:01 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjbC-0004gq-A3; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:30:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=DORPfiTWzDhuW6vd2TzOCpK0o8obzonVrkbhtElI2fw=; b=QWv834yspphb 6Nw2G3cqMx6mZ/R+xasQQiDgysdG6oYfCD2tzcJudiQAo/5zlIkA/ZhYmgs2YCbiqkOee0TGNHFaP vSBbhy/veqIx9HnDBL92lOXxPXbATCjyEsA5pLWq2RcMvIKou65FB5JFvWomj+U+bnErJohqlunxj zqEsWYtwxFPYlzBk4YfAcOOvtfR0XYKxqQ3aimoR81CdoDsyu0j2ctNPhEhiEmhHDk8oJGe9z484x DGVZcQzEjao25Cko1lXCbKOb7L4FD5+WSqRLl3zx55rGEFk1p8FiOwUNir73x5TusmLFaMVktt9tG /a+yOgIf1Oa0PR7w0+4IiQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjb9-0004E9-Ek; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:30:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:31:09 +0200 Message-Id: <83ttzwnxte.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Albinus In-Reply-To: <87v8kcmvac.fsf@gmx.de> (message from Michael Albinus on Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:07 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> <87edr17brr.fsf@yahoo.com> <83357hpksq.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8kcmvac.fsf@gmx.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, dick.r.chiang@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Albinus > Cc: Po Lu , yantar92@posteo.net, > dick.r.chiang@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:07 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > Hi Eli, > > >> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies > >> from being recorded on the bug tracker? > > > > That's up to Michael, not me. > > In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the next > 4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down? When I said it's up to you, I meant completely up to you. Whatever you decide in this case, including doing nothing, is fine by me. I have no opinion on this in this case. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 07:36:28 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 12:36:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54971 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjga-0001u5-KB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:36:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59684) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjgW-0001tk-IE for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:36:27 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjgR-0004bY-0Z; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:36:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=qLj+L3q5eZfbx0pDF3F1LhhTaz3jFM93kNskMoqdm44=; b=LzIP0AMF/BW5 fYhccJyYQeXN26pZKpoyswhBjdT605SUqzJtuanEYYdtkC7jBGfxOvl/OIL9O6GfaTMCKxoKNbqrm WEktqNMZgsk+lIK2R0W1M3xDUT10zbWund7RO8/cP7kHiC8as+Z0HdY5eUam4R5sVc6/zmWjibZ0t QZ6arLV2mU+vACI+B9zC7DfyrRyQZjUTvPPYfwuiHrQvA+2lvxcEOI7olVR38xjvV1Gr+cKhZE8bV mKL7lst3waVTVnRJa/psA7NM2i3I9jjH0++tOsz5O7pNP/f+/7BEjtLOBq6CocejUm/ounsze+zWA +JcHMzQBphHeYFP3Z83kYg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjgQ-00034R-8W; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:36:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:36:35 +0200 Message-Id: <83sffgnxkc.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 19:41:47 +0800 > From: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Many people do not understand English. > Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then? These aren't orthogonal: we can have the manual in English _and_ in other languages. (In fact, we want to; it's just that no one has yet volunteered to do the humongously monumental job of translating the manual into any other language, and then maintain the translation over the years.) Exaggeration is a mother of many failures to agree on common goals. So is over-generalization. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 07:52:52 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 12:52:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54999 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjwR-0002Qi-TK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:52:52 -0500 Received: from sonic317-3.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.230]:34510) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPjwP-0002QT-J5 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 07:52:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675860761; bh=FQoSkvjKgPfKtLCd/yNy+cVNmLCz4g3KY14z6Y05kEg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=fPxkqUj4vGThqSe80s3Sh8W5FdMAKWCYr2pPJnfXaJYcMgiuvYy3T8oIskj72MxmtdWbVm/ZxDnf6tLUNtN3ZNnxiO/EGvUKbIG6T3jEc2KD0J8hllmJLapPWj64crjgBGUa4d2fxBe4roFtqYgRsP9koRbyhgrZQGVV0Bq9PrWggG71Dihvb4V0LX5LYx/jhjAbccNMyBdyWB9JF3q1IQjI0mbK6wn+aSZMWlIG8IgnIrYEt7u7AIIDGsYZofQhC1xnzINiaaTwmJpMCmujNkk31X5qFRPWMPyfFyNhKSLFxfsquwcgnagf7eIMt3Jq1Zuz/OQ03Zba2sjPr84VLA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1675860761; bh=Esgp4uRsQECP/8Nd2zHZYc9trtuo60nasTWVtwtI6eF=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=h6M1U0ESjOeE+V8YVfqQozKfHsMRqbfeAQW/UmgSnJFBVdunAnYZg1QaG6+Pg4m69gbewy9OVS6fHx+fTv4ym9h54dqHZP0EM+1hO1lg2ba+M8CMnT26jtgQAeHmoTGvBRMZz++8LW0fGbvmLHUl/pyebdm5+fWrMX3sULynS+DyBFaZwa3GPHTlE8HZ9wvfMvmW8CQONN0jpJOM6W25GUaEOIfqlcuPk0PKOqNKNMME/Bca4QlOyhzsjP6jSGRyhzPbuM+EKH5RDDYKnLzuMSwH/+UAfnUuhtb7aipc2x3MgekVo8vUVu9UuBOT3eYNwWOV7oBNbkj05awj4Xgsrw== X-YMail-OSG: Pji.NYkVM1nCTla0m92MTyDk2f877_jY7Vvkp3QqS8a.RpYJgfHl_o1qymjUCGc tRLMMnbYSu0o.XbT2yYUSCY40oqytV_W2bWCUK9PgGZiG.jBKZdr0uhXmpgywKBFL2cNZjlpakcE PYIrjpibAWiratdfSvWK9KoNo3R0dSdcf7_R5vOVPaOeILsY8vR1g.Bsfy9Ags0CDeXLExBK.Tjs 8xPxS__Sa3Hi.smDpCLg3Fb7qobt8nVCGfGGJuC4QcXF.oG8DJDUaLxiKfLP2raYFpqKhxI_KQ5K Ow2hZQ9USiwUdXBQE9J1gHHAGXqXecQEgRKqMxiemsNjoRAp5cjufTURGImuqUaozwWUrcwSnoUf mtOILamX85WXyzfhfHZyW.GmOUrgyqAfNreXWQxHKQHFRiF1MpZzyvV2CeIgf.RhNsr3fXJIy.cL naXu38zM9oS2OTIk5sBQ8B_28Hk1H5J8kIcE.WLOQxeqoKVY8Fym_vgdOp4167GCWf3lGcL7EoqW zHijLaCs0nu9MncSE3c6e3ihnQnXoItiPZLFL_iF4.3js6MXRDxdqtkK0S_UxYUtlQBhDdkZC9Z. yFH0Yky5Fn7e3efvXvyALe6Yihey.QFDpo5LIosL8Se_CJYXUQd6lZCbMjDn6v8rtBliVoUX1FBF erlY_WwmrWkpRbWasH6SZPZCT2GtVS7smowS6FVyrX8M4Zje88PrrYPBPpe5EJiuR.LvJqe6GsVD _93L_lsheDrXzFGm01rCWZMVyYf0tCDlfbtMyZQSJOEY4eEuWfN6mNB1GDDbMBxTX4qpXRbN1pZJ Ktqa.3KA.4oU3VDfPjA7OL1bPhimlM13.fiykHmKuCaigA_1L89zC8bpOKiBknse99c1E0cCxjTs AsgagYT5.9AtwGNHSNd75YaSmoYk2SxoMI8StFxcEjINr2LSD.kGP8Q7NV4.XzEmYz6ySxJ5k89N Lfsv1iXcu2M3V2O4wg6yqeqfbKho5pRiFPv_n4tYLXnmMbuFysZxj91t9blh7xF7LvqvB2C32hjo Q0VlDPl94nUbdgJ9afGTDjyQUN0Rl144FcU8GuYJFeXqXRtFMmhcn09JaY5EZG84aFIVW4lcYqJe Ev5zc3xqyS_FRkCFSolufpnpvbIohuQjKuKSkum2zJKWPtYeiTwCQbBkoxsUUtWZOaLYRwe.KdVu 8drfzrv7ifrgfMe0107cIhrUjyGyRt5rkykqm08XkgHGFrBQgoqrDUXfnsTrt5zWyTHcWwU785Fb gcFXSDlpcNdW0_Rbj0b9TdpYc0F549Gk4FbIEbv8wRoOBxOyQ7l7nWmoEfmo.V.q_CnTyp6Xpamr H5oiyJRdzrag2bnOweZlkvcDAHdHChVaxcJB867dkukmYO3yzdK9ZdIazd5vKPgsR92_vBBShQvZ OAsAF7vCrLsD4vtG63ppVGTFgUxr0OtSK3B3mphkkkQzPUH2rA6.l9uPIpnVukH4mh7svZEp5.8X HIqUvxTYTD7RRoixEX0JJNvZPfzhIpAc4TwKD5Pxj9OpjJL6.kUgH7IUHXUBuJHimUqVsTQtZ9vD b.eUTGhV4jeMA0jMGydWEyjU6_at52fuYridCsLbqyWnFQBMxsQD5Z4HDPwugSHcoXs.bDiDtVg2 m0EvE5ni7KkpS.dXWzkFZWe2giYtxyXzgWV4FKlcpd._cDXY5FiT8xermeXAFrYlWeMFfwEBf5v0 _IoQgxCrnxjN9HFZEQv5LcFpzjFA4BmoQrA3WdY3YShsw4CD.bYbn_wqhioZol4c3zqKs0t5YykS eWhVbWE2pckpL2Qh8jgvQNSWrEsqZBNpo6Bl1h1OPeDF4ZYYiECped9Ks31SAKZUVi.YSEm5O9Dq Ea5QECtOitIvlgQ4FSxRP4bPxli8x4lxsmoz2R9JkBFBaTyfREK4_XFW5dQ_9WyjMeCsrIzmcSVl pD1UTRg4F6lGIoeQp9d4IIGFdFXjsJfjDXCHNqnhcggJV8mB6jV_UlwKs1dEmkTDQd6IPPf0NmNH hq3__JNYXHks8bu33a_m2z1B9x.8mCz.cIVDfladjp5rPIvvdAXwrSxcnCqBufTzLeXg6dpgoe.B L3HrnGS.Sg_4TRww.6_Cj4VRO_136QnCX3MJWxlmoq7xEB8R1EL8_xs8rTK2JyMMTK88E8YcWUFI WU2gGE3t0SYhRBdz3RSPf7N4FpWRgHa5luX9fWb8L9xFgduDo7e9rcI0JHIv8Zmq4oMvaZNibn4. b4JEmPc7Up5VfFVSEWRbRZzTViCDJ2MlvMeO.uOx13FZN5RuPhqBZ84lqwMuTBHUX5X6Lnekih3b fOC8GQqF47qnLmAc- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 12:52:41 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-xxb6k (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 3d9edde4cda6e64ea72f4a0254303172; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 12:50:38 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:59:23 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 20:50:31 +0800 Message-ID: <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21161 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 2133 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Please, do not use appeal to ridicule. But that's the point. Most people will find ridiculous that the following paragraph: Other people use ``kill files'', but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. = They do something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay attention! makes the subsequent four paragraphs describing score files less clear: All articles have a default score (`gnus-summary-default-score'), which is 0 by default. This score may be raised or lowered either interactively or by score files. Articles that have a score lower than `gnus-summary-mark-below' are marked as read. Gnus will read any ``score files'' that apply to the current group before generating the summary buffer. There are several commands in the summary buffer that insert score entries based on the current article. You can, for instance, ask Gnus to lower or increase the score of all articles with a certain subject. There are two sorts of scoring entries: Permanent and temporary. Temporary score entries are self-expiring entries. Any entries that are temporary and have not been used for, say, a week, will be removed silently to help keep the sizes of the score files down. similarly, most people will also agree that being written in English does not prevent them from understanding Emacs documentation. If you glance at the first paragraph, and decide to stop reading after that, it is not a problem with the Gnus manual. It is a reading comprehension problem on your part. If you really find that the first paragraph impairs the clarity of the next four, contextually independent, paragraphs, then you are part of a very small demographic. Several months ago, someone came up with the idea to delete all amusements from Emacs, and move them to ELPA (or something along those lines.) Asking us to delete every joke that someone finds confusing is not far from those lines, and is in fact a very slippery slope leading directly to that proposal. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 08:00:14 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 13:00:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55013 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPk3a-0002eq-F2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:00:14 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:37689) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPk3Y-0002dY-HQ for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:00:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1675861201; bh=Tq8cxHplvJuhl1bVeLEGP+SCFT6aN5Uiq3cryjrIPIU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=Rvo06l1sFlY7mfwxXahiTmg9NZcdLGACbDPkQxHAAukmvyFk0P7PjPLLy0iGVq+UW J0MofqCObkjGeQQf4V1YF1rHLIppEBahRS13iSxSHfoVwwMwa+Bs/S9FQlBXs5CHQn Tz883KxZsXAlJyHqEas8aPvIKA8Pyo5r+wn377T33t9iiuEHJGhNJ7nsTkebgR/xlJ 38wRjDwP6TXALe+y1CLC3qZ43rojFHvJrx1IS8eVCHPag95gZkz2TBJgYXhRjnuiUJ Zr8FHWAH7ZzACma7oVdAZBM7ROWDc6V6he54VlZ1KWbdeelTkdYM+NAAi2UuuN58yw zC21/zGPdxuGQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.39.22]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mxm3Q-1ofztH0Kpq-00zFF2; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:00:01 +0100 From: Michael Albinus To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83ttzwnxte.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 14:31:09 +0200") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7q5ftnp.fsf@dick> <87edr17brr.fsf@yahoo.com> <83357hpksq.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8kcmvac.fsf@gmx.de> <83ttzwnxte.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 13:59:59 +0100 Message-ID: <87k00smhww.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jxfHFLXehzVxjJdYC0ggFA7DFBhlHXsvl1LgnuUszcXeT6JFfXD ft9AQOM9C0enJE7EyhB21QeOTTzyvSwif2CBKWAq/I8KMyep7hQxjJzcPJXsAWXonGLLslB XBjCIXmraOYAAJ9shrojf4ixSdB8LVraNPYHt2qyxWFhZCB34QCIzWTEn8Hk/kAI8kUTLhD aUHO8kKfdVl11a5saBIWA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:nE+ORzwL4bQ=;H8TniUnR9v5M9PMnuq064geXrxi j7rw+MndznKwS3bQ41ffZr0aDauhiA04FQg6uUiPlvyniavECT9QxgTUk4n7jEzX4T72/WjT8 Ue6f+yZVw7jw8Ckhr+IXwsi4w7NAo4XfTsOxCrj0pPXs1K50H8jIQ1wmY82oqJTZXcXJd7MD5 8fHllYx1L1+Kp/htI2LVJ5uKzJU43mg+8dBbpyq8vtvp5WWlUCPMq6yl2XykV/Lj+3maCfXuG 4zysylWKRiXFwGGzUZVgcd4uC/myQIZwxFzyQ/abPJf8WPzJXZOQybN9jN8q7BR/mhU8x5r1p EBemf17fnpPo8GbCH8WiDfUXJVkGcouC5mODHwmEXvEb7fYwSba71rN4SqpJdxj5S01GWTyBB qSitT0jF/eecATy/6MrAPZk0niDrYqx0s7Bj7ogxk6VcL9L3HjXVz7YfCVGcoYxW5DBaIeBzF Ru3DIv/pWlhTUcx+9q/pM+reaC/h4sjXFGgb8TqZ3EJr4BcrfZkXDYZt7RLVdvHgtMwbacdgb Gk1ND8QGy32y8kvL5376GvbdbW4HH9qq68QFNfDjcGHPJflQ8iIr8hXc2UEf654pSx6eUgT+V J0S/VZZOL95gB9h3JDPVHn/rRB2/OjR+YlrJEm6WV1nk2rKM9u+TE5Fm9ahx/ujtaW3Liz8FL jgulzkDtcrvlkZTDPU2tWycgcEhjmL4i08GXPnB1E+vCMtxXY9pBfDTrlujkoWRABbW0sgJNF cTgnRPG2YVfzTuuDcRFdeg4DG/wGVxLPm6YjpJbghKjRMx1/KoybPLNvcifgT3cHkpqO7Hpga S+SrWdD9Q32ppB0Wt9HHxgs/1ku0UZnGq5xH+6Bbu4PQoxvsc4QUVIFtnJ67TlyrdITvg3V1D VR2zPlf2d320OMyPXHHHWFPOWdI532irp+afoe6BOpcGo5dEmapHx3UmdZw2ds2N7RjI0Fy+e j62z/3RCUP8/pg3L9b3Hw57hkHk= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, dick.r.chiang@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: Hi Eli, >> >> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's rep= lies >> >> from being recorded on the bug tracker? >> > >> > That's up to Michael, not me. >> >> In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the nex= t >> 4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down? > > When I said it's up to you, I meant completely up to you. Whatever > you decide in this case, including doing nothing, is fine by me. I > have no opinion on this in this case. OK. He knows there's a real option to be banned. Let's see how it goes, and if he continues to offend people, I'll add him to the filter. > Thanks. Best regards, Michael. 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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: [திங்கள் பிப்ரவரி 06, 2023] Ihor Radchenko wrote: > Hi, > > I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8 > Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find > the style of these sections insulting. > > While I [...] Content analysis details: (3.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (visuweshm[at]gmail.com) 3.6 RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL-CSS [118.185.152.162 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.214.193 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.214.193 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: [திங்கள் பிப்ரவரி 06, 2023] Ihor Radchenko wrote: > Hi, > > I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8 > Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find > the style of these sections insulting. > > While I [...] Content analysis details: (2.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.214.193 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 3.6 RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL-CSS [118.185.152.162 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.214.193 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (visuweshm[at]gmail.com) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders -1.0 MAILING_LIST_MULTI Multiple indicators imply a widely-seen list manager [=E0=AE=A4=E0=AE=BF=E0=AE=99=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=95=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D =E0=AE=AA= =E0=AE=BF=E0=AE=AA=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=B0=E0=AE=B5=E0=AE=B0=E0=AE=BF 06, 2023] I= hor Radchenko wrote: > Hi, > > I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8 > Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find > the style of these sections insulting. > > While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside > USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the > listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described > topic. As a non-native speaker who also read the Gnus manual (except Searching and the rest), my general sentiment is that it is hard to read it because of its writing style but I don't agree that every joke hindered my understanding. I find it hard to skim through the manual later when I read it like "regular documentation" due to its writing style so I would be happy to see a rewrite that tones down the jokes but so far the Info indices have served me well enough, and Gnus runs smoothly (for me) after the initial setup anyway so it is not a bother. > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > Note: > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > back of her plastic chair. > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > find this section insulting. I am not sure what this person finds insulting. I am not sure if you referred to this when you wrote "female bullying" in another thread, but what I visualise when I read this is much more innocent and does not have anything offensive. OTOH, I do agree this paragraph sticks out and seemingly serves no useful info. > Further, the last sentence in > > =E2=80=98z=E2=80=99 > Suspend Gnus (=E2=80=98gnus-group-suspend=E2=80=99). This doesn=E2= =80=99t really exit > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I=E2=80=99m= not > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. This is yet another dry Gnus humour in my book. > 3.16 Group Topics > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups o= ver > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or s= o?) > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You = can > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > groups or the sex groups=E2=80=94or both! Go wild! > > Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often > negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel > disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the > first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful > pieces of information coded inside? > > After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted > jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is > distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally) If you replace "sex group" with a language group e.g. "Spanish", does the paragraph make more sense? I personally saw the use of "sex group" as a jab at those who participate in "online sex groups" but I may be group of course. > 8 Scoring has > > Other people use =E2=80=9Ckill files=E2=80=9D, but we here at Gnus To= wers like scoring > better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. They = do > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > attention! > > For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of > word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we > .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that > make people feel uncomfortable. > > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting > files on file system? Even without any knowledge about news readers (I was not even born back then!), I could tell that "kill files" were a way to filter your feed from the context. Especially since Emacs already uses the word "kill" to mean what other applications call "cut" (kill-region) and "delete" (kill-buffer). I don't really see a cause for confusion here TBH. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 09:28:21 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 14:28:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55128 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPlQo-0007OF-UK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:28:21 -0500 Received: from mail-qt1-f179.google.com ([209.85.160.179]:42803) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPk9Q-0002pD-2Q for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:17 -0500 Received: by mail-qt1-f179.google.com with SMTP id 5so10586732qtp.9 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 05:06:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=AQkr7k+fr7STE+SLYuFC80l+O2f+86orLDe1bH/QIQo=; b=Zxu3R0jYdMA4yvTB9zPaA7YW4yLc5RXXsyEocwdlc//4+dlZGmd48buhlf58iCyM3I zizG2ERSokxZjYOsqQbU1YdpMvGZXYhsIW8o40GdfeWMUi9CuTa0kRGr0Jp46GJUHSDb rgM4/ay7u2jg5sOiIKS+ijZDJ5IhvjCRqWDHs0O9K9l+eXaGXPTjZkJ59vdQSIbPJ2sO hp8rIyrtw4gkD0G+zL6Hp1QnfXFSfe5oZsPFItE3oXmExHox9vWv85N0olO2Xy5jAFUb Vk6DXY/f1mQyGVXzSarNu8HDiHyzRBwSFWK6pOaElJShtMM08a9Iq7Asa0zr2DlY1UP1 H7EA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=AQkr7k+fr7STE+SLYuFC80l+O2f+86orLDe1bH/QIQo=; b=WjY+dEh31sABmJ8VgFavcypp9TwV7idNJzihI6yVc7XmI7LVluFH1lXtX79Cu6R2cJ U2EyFtgpwwzMjIQpboQDYzj38r1BjMtMyVjQFSfOKuAVEcn8fGkFmyLOWoHHVsWELowe fIFrElnVa9dfqaqkYPOSpOhctCmpNJhc40uiv0Ad+Idr/Xr8yhwJxWyt31wsdMK7iGTI JRTuLRqb6bRyL+kw+I5cwnjD5HA3pzF6q81Dse/HNgZIA7Vig3LBMhOUjyfrLO/KiLpg I6Ja31AZmRuhnTvVc0cFbnFZ9GNnDqfwQtkqcCJYwcjRgjFrJ2unHj55piSoCOyRbfi+ Dh7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKX72wEcMUepvMNyUcycKBhTcIAPyv3Kzn1MUMZwFsMkOXt4kKRO 5V7/MFzvt1/ricKDCd77GLU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set++GfAKFtT7hrCg4EpXo8y5MKsrC5A7bhyX52BZezZcQq58ruL9Dzw/46SQnf3yBMRya6pfYQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e56:0:b0:3b8:61df:1c2 with SMTP id e22-20020ac84e56000000b003b861df01c2mr12160332qtw.56.1675861570541; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 05:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ool-45763be4.dyn.optonline.net. [69.118.59.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e18-20020ac86712000000b003b9a505627bsm11343116qtp.79.2023.02.08.05.06.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 05:06:10 -0800 (PST) From: dick To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:09 -0500 Message-ID: <87ilgccnni.fsf@dick> User-Agent: Gnus/5.14 (Gnus v5.14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:28:17 -0500 Cc: Po Lu , yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) I trust everyone here can acknowledge Gnus had long ago reached a terminal state, and that new readers of the manual are more interested in 1990s netspeak than actually using the software. As you readily note, the manual is worthless for the latter's purpose. Gnusers worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this. I also trust everyone can see we're critiquing the equivalent of a five year-old's clay ashtray as if it were a Confederate monument, which I grant you is welcome respite from purposelessness and childlessness, but nothing to build a head of steam about! From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 10:47:49 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 15:47:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56404 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPmfk-0003nj-KP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 10:47:49 -0500 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:41348) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPmfi-0003nE-CP for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 10:47:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E666D411A8; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 16:47:44 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mln67jTW4mnP; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 16:47:43 +0100 (CET) From: Akib Azmain Turja DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1675871263; bh=E4hbXHO+L5X/iFbwRzFXmhGD8jhqvIXcTen/liLu4kE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=X0UzrvIDLj+4ZsgNg2HXVAEnkvbWhskJH3TeNrB4bI8hslLu8AIdr6s29nsBGddBQ 9RxMuxtZUuSwtKiBgqp44dWNqPZRPQw9o3ptB82L5z/yNDfgZhGkiF5BYdcTIZCWSV kU9p2ok6SsdfuekjrjvCm2exyhiWxZreb8xO37YUghIoZBpBhLrTiRbQ1WmaM9onpy WS/Rcq77NPeEDjbCnAJOWP/v337rwKyS8WKYEGThHdOmhAiRuww12TSn6j5+TkkN93 /bU/hW+NFGVkzXgjftzDMJjkqVBufELvuBWwWFFeBdQDR25lm5NJNP8IwjEbV+ItxN 32QaD9ZSjVqKA== To: dick Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ilgccnni.fsf@dick> (dick's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:09 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87ilgccnni.fsf@dick> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 21:35:10 +0600 Message-ID: <87a61orx01.fsf@disroot.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu , yantar92@posteo.net, Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dick writes: > I trust everyone here can acknowledge Gnus had long ago reached a > terminal state, and that new readers of the manual are more interested > in 1990s netspeak than actually using the software. As you readily > note, the manual is worthless for the latter's purpose. Gnusers > worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this. +1, the manual is mostly useless for newbies. I learned mostly by experimenting (and often breaking Emacs) and other internet resources. > > I also trust everyone can see we're critiquing the equivalent of a five > year-old's clay ashtray as if it were a Confederate monument, which I > grant you is welcome respite from purposelessness and childlessness, but > nothing to build a head of steam about! Somehow, the Gnus manual seems to me less as a serious manual and more as a literature text. =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@hostux.social Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEyVTKmrtL6kNBe3FRVTX89U2IYWsFAmPjwS4ACgkQVTX89U2I YWumHRAArynB49lx5nc0lx9etpB9JHj5UtSeTlYae7iH9q+3yipfWEBSKUvSzw1m nhKS3NTmyqxMUZIp8ClNUwYMm6r0ZUTHtec7YuTnDSLVXyu9ds51/OvoIOBugy6u wSPZkwjSykylRqdOEpwRGMU+1WCbhHYtqK/yEwcJehl5ej93q7ogNCBv/ELAvNKw 3sZ9SzU8YRBmcv7MFk4tW5Gb2AUEELjmt3Z0p5yb9NAfnQ1p9y4Sz6qh8cCBCtYm My5E782BC1FZXadur5S66ocEwG2ZTxkFpVqERHlDIOTNXRUYKyzoMd7L+qMTQXoe F9b61eYZugBd4QyGo1AHnhhqnz6QnDgUSg6sbHE6OIPcu3xp3sNLd2TqE7l6fOS1 IPNn5PIlcCteDIpmzmSSi6aSc1SrIkY77IecXSXC2xOX9+2clwNLQtZwKnA7T30W 7+7tsUNvPmFywvX6r57AS24FQIkKdTlYqMDXYQLr3TLSPoVPKYCKGmGQaM8MZz7x oxDbuIwefB38pG2PIg7gvky5uGJspXsBrYh/ds4m8LMX8RMUdRJmxxu2pLDgYhcL D6On7TwwVkJtsdKxlbcXt0RcHanlvrmvPdSShIlJaypPcGNeHHqdt2wkP+ay+U4r SlU5uDOvFLsmlSgGRStO+x/UIZW5JdEqFtB0UOt9hI7t/P2t6Ug= =cQ+U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 15:40:08 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 20:40:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56731 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPrEd-0003Ge-Hl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 15:40:08 -0500 Received: from mail-yw1-f175.google.com ([209.85.128.175]:41499) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPmy6-0004Ns-Ar for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:06:50 -0500 Received: by mail-yw1-f175.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-52bdbd30328so33125197b3.8 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:message-id:date:user-agent:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7ViJiHP6/Z/kKjA+UR/ExXvjagGqhZMYYWU4pk5r15c=; b=jUEjEHFnpPwT8lTu0Kdb8GLBqGzyK2yNt7OuGZNl6Seaa1+IKHplx2ECJSmS2DIalz bfeBEfNPDPPrV7gGiJmB5J0noX3xSW4UHpQGPfxS3pOjucDXPTpnM46XFH2FChRVY25G mLbYCv7I33WnBdS1c7H1qjima73ZZr0PYBkLy+ug/XCdt3ghAlPlsWz6h/tP9RJH2pRQ 6F6V6PkUuSFRIcRlbqOuZy5lJ0muebAXLQURkYEMhw1KlWdMmB2KGUOe5YsWIUfqcloK laYYi+RUm3vreEpn6OWIYH3vP89AROWzEJgZi5pPGn7/sbvNsYVp4iTAalNR7rM6mpOi 5hjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:message-id:date:user-agent:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=7ViJiHP6/Z/kKjA+UR/ExXvjagGqhZMYYWU4pk5r15c=; b=TeiWh+wobxJr6aNzPSRSsefz9fWv9454s6aFvlKVAFT7Y5CB3P2RGu8dXUXrlXu3JW 3Hc0MkVtPYkJ2sgPc9SOSgu5R15p0VMOCjn219lJvKVIOfqDG9jjQja75IpHmMI++SJ4 arV96uIOFAOTLHFj++FJ/BP7Udb5Q3VGGhzDP7QIXwQ+Im5i28Rv/i/l9RJ12SksuzVZ g7eA4rnQitCbSHpomEJYk7btg8KFqAmRyWJ3qmRTVbQAyS0vZod/NiRYzkeZTxb/dCj/ pHV/WHHp5dCwzA+77vUz3/y7RXrjT+16kSxj+ndsb+P56p8bNDU1kOM6nZZHZ6IzafXS eU4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVaUC6v9eZv+bmFCpKNZx9qQiGyBxM0T/R1QUpfTev6Xlx4Zgwz F0LaN0Fbhdh2dRYPFtOsydgsFAWJ6b51aQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set97lDZD6B/P4aZt7pIHpVwKZMF9LM8MOfiuuOAFZSkpZYNJrws14GwnqoecClHtQoS1K3IHTw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:a986:0:b0:4fd:c59b:b9e5 with SMTP id g128-20020a81a986000000b004fdc59bb9e5mr4462369ywh.33.1675872400510; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ool-45763be4.dyn.optonline.net. [69.118.59.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c11-20020a05620a164b00b0071c9bf854c6sm11726887qko.69.2023.02.08.08.06.39 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 08:06:39 -0800 (PST) From: dick Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87a61orx01.fsf@disroot.org> (Akib Azmain Turja's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 21:35:10 +0600") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87ilgccnni.fsf@dick> <87a61orx01.fsf@disroot.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.14 (Gnus v5.14) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 11:06:39 -0500 Message-ID: <877cws87lc.fsf@dick> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: >>>>> Akib Azmain Turja writes: >> Gnusers worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this. > +1, the manual is mostly useless for newbies. Correction: all 13 of us. Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (dick.r.chiang[at]gmail.com) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 1.2 MISSING_HEADERS Missing To: header -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.128.175 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [209.85.128.175 listed in wl.mailspike.net] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 15:40:06 -0500 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) >>>>> Akib Azmain Turja writes: >> Gnusers worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this. > +1, the manual is mostly useless for newbies. Correction: all 13 of us. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 23:28:23 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 04:28:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57179 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXm-0001Vt-OE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46150) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXk-0001VT-Lz for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:21 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXf-0005jz-8K; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=NilQg6CsT1FSJDLVGwd/eR7abbow7/QL/SrUq7OhydI=; b=f7Y1JrylJ1Jh z7lc5eG0Ha+vtILl40r7ZXR5cohTZHHnXlc4PSJ4DTzDrm2caTW612ohvBM9wfkaCiWRln8xywsSa Ne2akQr06eW9TJbQl8YuPzH+adTWT6BQAeZ3nK3bGUQfuqFyQ7H9BCmj8FUXgrgKYJa0OtAXbQaV+ 5R0M1nXcBsDVpcPTYZftYPyGP/g1QQAo9Bdmyos9rpZuane37yngUmSFhtx+2WnjDbthceVApMm3E TKIOlq34lle2S4BGz0/bHCtdqfSK20HaTvkZ+WfUMW6xMkEfQLGf8IKxoH0STvfnf1SU+e6qEu69a ZAhTDBgqpUL0njxjtJOa6Q==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXe-0004eR-2f; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:14 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Akib Azmain Turja In-Reply-To: <871qn1tre3.fsf@disroot.org> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1tre3.fsf@disroot.org> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:14 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is > even more offensive (for many): I can see how people who feel they are romantic failures could start to cry on reading that joke, but I see nothing that is offensive in it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 23:28:23 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 04:28:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57181 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXn-0001Vx-7b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46158) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXl-0001VV-E1 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:21 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXg-0005kG-6u; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=Fqav2pTQ0NZToHY0RAN0b92n6y7bbDHmaieukpRtcVM=; b=QOat2/uBjeN6 IRR+Rgr09hkk2GoOVFYM+mOPHeh89T1czpft/DsYrEuNzKeLTcO4SxhVvuoAKPkvWXFgFJVF/rmkj EFvYdp5GY5+Ra4x0ZAnbUOIgacyJbExHAwA9cYvVYq8Lb0ZTBdbcZipnihMyKLjB0MO0rGCLivFtW dBzZ4mi7cd/on39Qu29kqRMt+lb2nDUhR0ez8XSkGT9eTEydx0fwDMIhWcVGj8BnV0oUvJW8gTdnA BsilIPbV/HvA5qC0Ht23OpYeyfKrZzcM+SNwH1aBs1oZP8vtdIk8v/mxI6kG+Et+/cv9ARDV3lbeg tgi6QE81GL4U15SzlB78Pw==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXf-0004fg-HM; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:15 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Tue, 07 Feb 2023 13:01:14 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:15 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The paragraph structure is basically: > > Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself > is not understood. Jokes which are hard for many readers to understand can be frustrating for the readers who can't understand them. So I think we should insist that jokes be comprehensible. In other words, don't include jokes whose claim to funniness comes from crucial links left unstated, stated vaguely, or replaced with "wink, wink." -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 08 23:28:31 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 04:28:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57187 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXv-0001WT-5m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48614) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXr-0001Vu-Tn for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXm-0005lF-MP; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=BdJIdu79E+YHO/KSClTX7xhNafot2ONRTFypL+XRiJw=; b=PFkrkPLNrfU3 UaHxQ0MYttxDgO26JO3gYCh2dxUwIsKqYsJnp8UWFDCYephG7Pl07dzEEJP9p11ibvt2pvG2hnwk4 CfN0IDuO7oDSFhZaj3bR4XkCm2iqzA1edzB+uBxxHpyjZGYiOR1oTbujeuEwzwUrf52qfk0X1bM8z l2xYHGNYOR3LMxHVJYVC982glS5/U3+R3C6fP5Eh2enQb4fag9li2AEbKY9hX8vG04HF4ECccrbIP KZvvxwLuXePxlyEQWjQz4CJyDePbrsuoEPMSxnXVhy6++FhsLRSQPz2tE9T1iWsr1sv6eNaACkeeB nuWWnMSmNpUwTpq+p0z3Tg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPyXm-0004lw-4E; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:22 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:22 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the > screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness > (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the > gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond > maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the > same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab > coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See > `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary. > Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes > of crusaders? The topic is not an evil, but that text is too hard to read. If it is important to document that point, we should rewrite it in clear English. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 09 11:46:36 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 16:46:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33520 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pQA4C-0004bj-1O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2023 11:46:36 -0500 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:44458) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pQA49-0004ba-GF for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2023 11:46:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3970C4154C; Thu, 9 Feb 2023 17:46:32 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nR6XDaD9Op5I; Thu, 9 Feb 2023 17:46:31 +0100 (CET) From: Akib Azmain Turja DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1675961191; bh=KOi4z2xecKJNeCHKfxnHW+qc4ujJfYZW8qSqurYBFgY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=L/ruo/SgrKmDwYMG8ynz3KNXQ//iILgf9iZuNnVfI2adpq0h1Kub7QDP7dhoQ/Xrc Z/6rDdhDzPp3AcS8oY/Vhc1fbJbrDiv8cAmKxY3OpF2TzKQCjL41R8M7F1Y4Kfg1Jz qRkirUPj/zquUFfrSv5G6rTzrCWsqs6/EWEF0v1YVlsFMd/wfKL2k36UhZlgSEP/ne pUETliaDuBQStY3C7vNTRYvR68/OAsPLb/jDoKxx2T38EcD0qKFwTgL2kOp2BUX+zq LZ3vh9hm8QndKMbID5iyf8zF63t4AUSaEPdZcyslbExhI7J3wdxyC2MvCU7jU8a+UU iyxrcvAmOSdOA== To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2023 23:28:14 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1tre3.fsf@disroot.org> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 22:44:38 +0600 Message-ID: <87mt5mhjpl.fsf@disroot.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is > > even more offensive (for many): > > I can see how people who feel they are romantic > failures could start to cry on reading that joke, > but I see nothing that is offensive in it. A 13 year would be offended by that quotation, I think. (At least in my culture.) =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@hostux.social Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEyVTKmrtL6kNBe3FRVTX89U2IYWsFAmPlIvYACgkQVTX89U2I YWvL7w//eigxJFdO15Zo7oztJfIpQNx+VUKOdKOqBQQrqxkFXldpRxSNNfRaGbRL hs0NxLO+M8YOww0qavR1Gn8Oc+CLKJIkzlxu4Nd4vRRjHZfX2DbZ6a2kj9O5j5oL oIlWp1jxl9tL2gm8YP++DkcNQIyah2DremgA9pZKZ37i7dQ775WnIC8lmYaHVDUl MDGjpsIf/pkFt0R4CRIymK3cWJ9AAYu5Fs6msRgiZee8EJYdqiXa6P0QWrItoDUJ Nbu09rB+KOL8SJMEN4qnlW1mp8QH1nFObcG3QvW4vD61qnZLBmiX472lKmc9iVD6 dPh9TRAi3qaDzEoJUKlQvGrM81Apu9/d1yzqPVgse0xRej5zdnUV8M6OmqAPXbCj oeDp+DEO4Bop7IpjELlVLguH1qca2n76mzqUXmT1s+zEHJtLkg1ZfrlnbxWZwLYf ZZgY0OiEEjVtGVemIX1f5m/7HmDkjDWuc5nmVBgSHiOuGuR7wQiEERU8KZua+uBX yLclbgzQFsjBXyAubDRdjZcUlLtlAA3UAFOts3dkBywxJNdWOn1k9SA6ekDJsurk sSrX0S4c/rgVpdKCnBL1OeMBs8D1je2Agg3b5iAdY/HFbB14ur4bBJBJWxleblaG NNxYMmyigyUC1BMrvRSnrDBJw3TG2QHU7kncHfDqpWnxCvMxxDs= =63AJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 11 23:03:37 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 04:03:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43727 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR3aT-0000EC-Eg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54760) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR3aR-0000Dv-K3 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pR3aL-0001MR-AF; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=i4tC39pmIAigdHHunsJQgzB4GrzOrvzobGsc4c2RQ4s=; b=sH4r7JvlVhy8 XY/SabdWKUd/KWSHgZb/sn7AeKXzcLH9t8m8RUyeG2JN7ccuxjPvgbOS81nnGHSMf5A3ouq68dSLh ua+dB6N7E5/bBtwb07pp6J3vX6t2CUmQOKWSJv5r7RC27CeoAv6aI0/OIaVG5RX+NdeWDOcZZ3gID zaRiPkbjfq784YlQsn+H+WDe1Si0dBh+YOpVUPC+M+kicTY3poIYGAHSUYIJxA2ezyYPU4IBoQWkq /MaQit4yF3XiyLxEuai2xDv1bI8oebvrGHwUkCE9OSMG65jXpQuXpeKlsrDlYsP26dfl6JHxyj0im E7v7jOimid8rGcLHdWKsOA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pR3aK-0006Ww-9p; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:28 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Akib Azmain Turja In-Reply-To: <87mt5mhjpl.fsf@disroot.org> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1tre3.fsf@disroot.org> <87mt5mhjpl.fsf@disroot.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:03:28 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] That joke is not particularly funny, and doesn't make an interesting point. To delete it would be no great loss. However, it is not horrible either. > A 13 year would be offended by that quotation, I think. (At least in my > culture.) That may be true -- I don't know. But we are not part of your culture and never agreed to follow its rules. You and the others who practice your culture are not entitled to demand obedience from everyone else. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:33:53 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:33:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43893 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR5vs-0004Rc-TX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:33:53 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:44371) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR5vo-0004RR-Rj for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:33:51 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103950.0000000063E8884F.00007908; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:33:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:11:36 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: dick Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87r0v2rcjj.fsf@dick> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r0v2rcjj.fsf@dick> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * dick [2023-02-06 20:51]: > Gnus is, by current standards, largely shit software, so its manual > is oddly fitting. I wouldn't worry about it. Bad manners, dick! I recommend reading books about etiquette for personal improvement. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:33:58 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:33:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43895 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR5vx-0004Rt-9m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:33:58 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:44371) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR5vs-0004RR-FB for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:33:53 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103951.0000000063E88852.00007917; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:33:54 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:32:56 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Ihor Radchenko [2023-02-06 19:03]: > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > Note: > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > back of her plastic chair. 😆 Come on! It is good we have Info manuals of this type! A joke need not be joke for person A, can be for person B, can be dedicated to person C, can be hidden, there are millions of variations. Nobody is expected to be literate, or to have sense of humour. No joke is for everybody to be accepted or understandable. > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other > user find this section insulting. Haven thanks manual is not robotic! Though even robots would find it insulting! > Further, the last sentence in > > ‘z’ > Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’). This doesn’t really exit > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I’m not > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. It is fine to ask about it. It makes the whole system personal and ex(c)iting. When I read books of Edgar Allan Poe I also do not understand every word and meanings of the author, and I have to research a bit and dwell and go in the past, that is the point of writing, as many writings are a look into history and environment of the author. Removing such writing to "comply" to today's expectancy, removes personality of the author and diminishes the culture and art of it. Instead, to help the today's reader, one only has to add maybe few footnotes or hyperlinks for reader to understand what was meant at the time. > 3.16 Group Topics > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > groups or the sex groups—or both! Go wild! 😆 In my age I get the feeling fully! This even makes me subscribe to newsgroups. That is exactly what people do. Why not make fun out of what people actually do? No, I would never remove this part of joy from manual. > Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, > often negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users) There is world on this planet, and that world is not self-centric. No matter of religion, there is always more beyond that. That is for the user to understand and grow up out of it. Or not. > I simply feel disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. He he he, why not subscribe to newsgroups and try it out. > I can understand the first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a > joke? Or are there useful pieces of information coded inside? Why be robotic and have it all strict, straight, and explicitly useful. Is that not bringing you a bit out o balance and habits of reading technical documentation? Isn't it good that author talks to you in funny way? It is similar to a child being approached by rather unknown adult person, some children will accept it and get along, some will start crying. It is a process of growing up, at some point, same child will be able to confront the unknown (not only people) and feel confident. > 8 Scoring has > > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > attention! Keep the culture, only understand it, and add footnotes for people though I don't think is necessary. All your questions will be answered by understanding why Lars wrote Gnus. Hahahahahha. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:56:38 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:56:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43910 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR6Hu-0005Fs-KM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:38 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR6Hs-0005Fk-JE for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:37 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103950.0000000063E88DA7.00007B9D; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:56:38 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:38:31 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Ihor Radchenko [2023-02-07 19:16]: > Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs > survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without > jokes Poll for jokes... either it is funny for somebody, or not funny for somebody, it is personal, there is no poll about personality, it is how it is. You are experiencing the author, not the robotic technical manual! Why not be happy for that. You see, those jokes also wait for this discussion to take place! What a great "program" by writing simple text. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:56:42 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:56:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43913 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR6Hx-0005G9-UG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:42 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR6Hv-0005Fk-Kn for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:40 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103950.0000000063E88DAB.00007BAF; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:56:42 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:46:58 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors [2023-02-08 07:50]: > It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files > should be preferred instead. * Overview of verb score The verb score has 7 senses (first 3 from tagged texts) 1. (18) score, hit, tally, rack up -- (gain points in a game; "The home team scored many times"; "He hit a home run"; "He hit .300 in the past season") 2. (12) score, nock, mark -- (make small marks into the surface of; "score the clay before firing it") 3. (3) score, mark -- (make underscoring marks) 4. score -- (write a musical score for) 5. seduce, score, make -- (induce to have sex; "Harry finally seduced Sally"; "Did you score last night?"; "Harry made Sally") 6. score -- (get a certain number or letter indicating quality or performance; "She scored high on the SAT"; "He scored a 200") 7. grade, score, mark -- (assign a grade or rank to, according to one's evaluation; "grade tests"; "score the SAT essays"; "mark homework") I totally got why scoring is preferred over killing. 😀n I am not really "grown up" despite the age, so it's easy to get the double meaning of it. Do you get it Po Lu? -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 01:56:45 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2023 06:56:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR6I1-0005GO-Co for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:45 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pR6Hz-0005Fk-3u for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2023 01:56:43 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.87.28.92]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103956.0000000063E88DAE.00007BB9; Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:56:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:56:10 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Visuwesh Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4sb7el.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87wn4sb7el.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Ihor Radchenko , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Visuwesh [2023-02-08 16:44]: > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > Note: > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > find this section insulting. > > I am not sure what this person finds insulting. I am not sure if you > referred to this when you wrote "female bullying" in another thread, but > what I visualise when I read this is much more innocent and does not > have anything offensive. OTOH, I do agree this paragraph sticks out and > seemingly serves no useful info. Art is perceived by audience. Every user, every reader, can add to the author's idea. It may be different to different users. I get the feeling of what happens when "Exiting Gnus". What is the stage when you exit the world of reading newsgroups? How does it feel? User is in one world "Gnus" or "news", reading newsgroups, it is specific world where mind is occupied and does not focus on the environment. How does it feel when user get out of that news environment? It is similar as waking up from a dream. It is similar as opening eyes and seeing something totally different! It shows the feeling of author contrast of the environment and feeling of a user as to how it feels when you exit Gnus. Maybe it is Miss Lisa Cannifax in English class, or plethora of other variations. It is awakening. And Miss Lisa Cannifax helps reader awake to. There is message from author right there. I maybe see it, maybe not. But I see what I feel. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 13 23:52:02 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Feb 2023 04:52:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52260 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pRnIP-0000VT-NC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:52:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43132) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pRnIM-0000VA-Kf for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:52:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pRnIG-0004Od-7Q; Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:51:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=WTXBAvJAgqWbLN5PSIcgxymCn1miS9cPZevBAMbp/5g=; b=LPrF5BbQgPTb ucaQEI/AA7d6koJ8OGRFAEUtgFX8qovXKbYFygXBNe6/8HsuoVMiNN0aJoRWZEEtpL4kqz/B+XKz7 3irc1ol7/ODM6A0pCleB8e3Lvuwdj6eavMbIFtfC9JRdHAZxoHCnEMp6M5JKdpFZrPflIIQ8eOZby mop5SWKU+C5xBQR6cddmYUxn/4GedYq2WK7LHfg5lY1mYgGbHt2pUHcI4T0zI6HLAuApzy39Y8zUI KHNRoy3A0GoKuAf4BrMTTtfxgqoJoW8PIJSvdvSTD2PBRiu8Ly5cNme4UIkOmE7DudciHS4XFbwLV 05WPhyyu9359XbMyYZPHSg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pRnIF-0005Q8-PN; Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:51:51 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean Louis In-Reply-To: (message from Jean Louis on Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:32:56 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:51:51 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > ‘z’ > > Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’). This doesn’t really exit > > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I’m not > > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. I too feel confused by that patricular joke. Being a joke is not bad, but confusing the reader is bad. So I think it should be deleted. It poses a question which is a good question, but fails to answer it. Is the suspend command useful? I guess that it is or was useful for some people. Can anyone say why it was useful? How about replacing a joke with an explanation? > > 8 Scoring has > > > > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring > > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do > > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > > attention! Can anyone explain that joke to me? I don't get it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 14 08:47:27 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Feb 2023 13:47:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52921 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pRveY-0001Cy-T8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:47:27 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:52629) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pRveX-0001Cp-Hs for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 08:47:26 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.85.204.48]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103952.0000000063EB90EE.0000102B; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:47:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 14:17:49 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Richard Stallman [2023-02-14 07:52]: > > > 8 Scoring has > > > > > > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring > > > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do > > > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > > > attention! > > Can anyone explain that joke to me? I don't get it. Examine definitions below, and go back in time of reading newsgroups: * Overview of noun score The noun score has 11 senses (first 6 from tagged texts) 1. (18) mark, grade, score -- (a number or letter indicating quality (especially of a student's performance); "she made good marks in algebra"; "grade A milk"; "what was your score on your homework?") 2. (8) score, musical score -- (a written form of a musical composition; parts for different instruments appear on separate staves on large pages; "he studied the score of the sonata") 3. (4) score -- (a number that expresses the accomplishment of a team or an individual in a game or contest; "the score was 7 to 0") 4. (4) score -- (a set of twenty members; "a score were sent out but only one returned") 5. (1) score, account -- (grounds; "don't do it on my account"; "the paper was rejected on account of its length"; "he tried to blame the victim but his success on that score was doubtful") 6. (1) score -- (the facts about an actual situation; "he didn't know the score") 7. score -- (an amount due (as at a restaurant or bar); "add it to my score and I'll settle later") 8. score, scotch -- (a slight surface cut (especially a notch that is made to keep a tally)) 9. grudge, score, grievance -- (a resentment strong enough to justify retaliation; "holding a grudge"; "settling a score") 10. score -- (the act of scoring in a game or sport; "the winning score came with less than a minute left to play") 11. sexual conquest, score -- (a seduction culminating in sexual intercourse; "calling his seduction of the girl a `score' was a typical example of male slang") -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 09:37:12 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2023 14:37:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58386 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSIuF-000527-Uc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:37:12 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:33747) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSIuB-00051o-Tp for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:37:10 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C1D0240035 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:37:01 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676471822; bh=kuJ9HOOcgH86/94L4El+PtI/O1DDJ0I2hIK8BAQZEZY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=oXRqGTJ64B4HyYi+8c/kDlHzpLwmOf/R+AFU5L4tQRRqyXjjRVP8jjw0+8U+JRV/7 zf87Vj8uQ9I9o7Y40qF8/iOuolSTs8sV8y0Hje4xQc6ZKTjj5zRHKiOOYGWQgSpRR1 x9dpprqxz+VQN1SM2BFXXdihw2DdDvCZg5oOHNvqBLQ6n4iFPJ2QYWsiufSQDQ8XHP oqJ4IyMfEwHuYy1LDBW23cdbA88Ri94cpT8FPLtls7qJnUPidVaEP2ZTv3uPyZKBXc Q6UrIZ9n3PW49WH07FqrKVNAsShahzUVbFGayARirHc6MQ9V1JZq8agvY/xM5koRHR Bh/MQOnCnjoYQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PH0yg5vd9z9rxR; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:36:58 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:37:32 +0000 Message-ID: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman writes: > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > > find this section insulting. > > I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting. Upon checking again with the person who initially reported the issue with this particular note, I found that the part about insulting was rather theoretical. The argument was that someone who had bad experiences with bullying might feel insulted. I now find such argument insufficient to call the note insulting. It is not the only problem with this note though. > I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny. > I can't make sense of it at all. I had the same feeling upon reading section 3.15. Now, when it was pointed that this is supposed to be a joke, I can see that it is trying to play around the concept of "suspend". > We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their > unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power > which nobody should have. I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics, like sex, races, politics, etc? If such a topic must be mentioned as a part of technical description, I see no problem with mentioning such topics out of necessity. However, jokes in the manual are supposed to either raise positive feelings or at least be neutral. If we know in advance that a significant number of people will be annoyed by certain kinds of jokes, are such jokes worth it? > However, jokes that make people feel mocked _because they use Gnus_ > are unfriendly to our users. We should remove those. May you elaborate? Reading the manual is a part of using Gnus. Or do you mean that statements deliberately attacking/mocking people who use Gnus (or certain parts/functions in Gnus) should be avoided? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 09:47:37 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2023 14:47:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58426 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSJ4L-0005L3-6r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:47:37 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:48655) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSJ4I-0005Kn-AO for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:47:35 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 036D12405D0 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:47:25 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676472448; bh=kSBNPHOaOTeYkc8rYeD3xWCGl/6pT2tfXUzCGIx2Lek=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=mT18grZbMFeyEIRkYaEP244YtpKODgMWj/A1ZAKRoaPtxyJE2zSaAY6Y8KymQTu+R W8guCMBTiVTfEURHAdpkQRVclHMOqdEwO9fLHR0cdEvmArko2iBpiEysZhH/i9LYNm gqzN8VPfMdvsYp3soWBbgcbFwoXWE8sZV8hic0JHpUeCK5dFqXXK6YtAReqBWTfQ+1 WmZxaS4LqV36EIa8WGdnpLtDpt6wsLojf5ZJathC0N86xPP1lp9LUEPYsI6aBBkLsp ulwtr9bF6vcHAy7fbOXTgd9qMCcEBmi1gO1V4qRvLKE1cKl5pQEj4hhcBr/nN0+/di ayqQBbLLfmj4w== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PH1Bh2jhtz6trx; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:47:24 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:47:59 +0000 Message-ID: <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > >> This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex. >> I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny. This part > > If you replace ``sex'' with, say, ``kayaking'', the meaning of the joke > stays unchanged. Will it be ok to do such replacement? > The joke is that it is possible to sort completely unrelated newsgroup > into categories. This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I did not get this information while reading because I did not understand the joke.=20 >> I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers >> who do not know. If not, we should add that. > > It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files > should be preferred instead. May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what kill files are? I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files mea= n: 8.13 Kill Files =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20=20=20=20 Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code in = there. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 09:54:37 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2023 14:54:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58464 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSJB6-0005bX-W5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:54:37 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:56423) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSJB4-0005bJ-Bu for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:54:34 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B15C924045A for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:54:28 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676472868; bh=lyR/MHLeH6SHJKW+0yXNu86v0kvd/07etVwCp0/VWSI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=oCwun63WoZpQZZiqGtyme3ArBcP/3tD4skUCXJbM3xcpM83TdaNVNEKtKtEskhpzj KnECt/3sBcc0vMyiD3sk1322IxfNxDmwofQmJBXwjsoaCHqWQOSdGqrnJ6ifoF79A3 qZS3y2jhqHVgqRYuY0uCz7BaFbhHimnzKaWlC6s6imJqeBqIkGmZJ5NRfGZde+z8m+ hXMAn7SbMEQDRYX828w9Q/sDCfPr4c89C2XuaeOeJxjZc+V2EhKo+28cOcS0vje8kL MWftbrmtmgSGyVsgLQ0sqNgRD4DOtQV2q2x7u8eaP4KwWhBPDEksIYK4s1GGAodaMc FovLDs6urgBLg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PH1Lq2n5kz9rxK; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 15:54:27 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:55:04 +0000 Message-ID: <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> Please, do not use appeal to ridicule. > > But that's the point. > > Most people will find ridiculous that the following paragraph: > > Other people use ``kill files'', but we here at Gnus Towers like > scoring better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight.= They > do something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > attention! > > makes the subsequent four paragraphs describing score files less clear: No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains technical information that is hard to understand without understanding the joke. > Asking us to delete every joke that someone finds confusing is not far > from those lines, and is in fact a very slippery slope leading directly > to that proposal. I am not asking to delete every single joke. I am asking to change or delete the jokes that impair ability of the manual to explain the technical information. Note that I specifically listed concrete jokes in the initial report. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 10:34:11 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2023 15:34:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33648 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSJnO-0007Sh-Kh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:11 -0500 Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com ([209.85.210.51]:44813) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSJnM-0007SP-Mq for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:09 -0500 Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id 38-20020a9d04a9000000b0068f24f576c5so5517867otm.11 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 07:34:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+CL59otRqM4aSJ+P3luxsmDoT+Olfb2JeIb7IY5LBw4=; b=ncpPhwga1N6EnyI5MyD0yBGIcrTpkRXTgZL6MU7Ahd2r6oc36j6CBj4hDyDCc95Nsz VDbxBdFJCsOx3lQGHZgbVIvt6q8b36Bxjmak6VE+PfHGAE4iwav0TBbLMG6KBs/5pFrz H49G3945MyLdB3sOWE2hnZdwhuTSQQRNQMvroqvUoo2gJIqe6Rffgc0AaR33ryiRj2LS JrY2vwC3Ot/vvk/3rXg4WliZRiw0MaknF4eO+I3diGry6tbKkR9mVchSY/x6tMjup+fM UBD9wquzrn6Dpiz6ofnPGM6nYnuwU3OHFoKvJVJqyCWhR0JeLRGUUhaLeAPkl6VKXsom rMPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+CL59otRqM4aSJ+P3luxsmDoT+Olfb2JeIb7IY5LBw4=; b=47aHZ4A5rHj7sHp4wh4EnhS/vKind40s/HqFUMQybK3U20gL+xw7ahj+bU+hDQicqv t37ayRlZPowuBfvemWjyFjKSukWHt4eXMMGSxocx06l3O/8Js2AeR55/atAxXCkSs2A0 yUd+uhiBXV2XIDH+30fLvnEi9RcCE/7ginatcKi5Pb3yyj9XKyEuD/Wnw9hOMmJwbOnp UXLwz8BtNXc+suQCnnrL4x+KHOjc8iX0PmBtoRUkljmNokM7hrKvOgNBnvgtPeta3CUH TG6YLXCot+e0QxJ3GLe276UFGQb4/jmaTkJAvZE4eurCXC7AgyI6+44Oh2K0hJHpTDG3 Frgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXGBd6EekEW+5WeX8+qsj0aNtFo+q5gkD06k86Y2MjS26ezT2Gj GUNvVo6LQYlSl5T8E7luHQfzTcXOoVayxH/Rjhg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9npbU9TU1tkZpLBzYkFXb8WKC0Cz50jIpzba9ffxxl3/s8SMQP4TlwsWl7AabkAir3VF2i36qytMIX5xm/3oE= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6406:0:b0:690:bf1e:9ef4 with SMTP id h6-20020a9d6406000000b00690bf1e9ef4mr119344otl.129.1676475242989; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 07:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:02 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Hashcash: 1:20:230215:rms@gnu.org::zltAkD+iGGGkQrp1:FRzO MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual To: rms@gnu.org, Po Lu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman writes: > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > > find this section insulting. > > I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting. > I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny. > I can't make sense of it at all. > > Would someone who understands it please explain the joke? Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that paragraph. I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or even intended meaning of that paragraph is. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 11:00:32 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2023 16:00:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33718 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSKCj-0000Dn-JL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:00:32 -0500 Received: from mail-wm1-f49.google.com ([209.85.128.49]:43915) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSKCh-0000DX-N4 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:00:20 -0500 Received: by mail-wm1-f49.google.com with SMTP id az4-20020a05600c600400b003dff767a1f1so1895868wmb.2 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:00:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=s47E8kmUO7Axjneenq2z2PEZt152NhvvcL2OApIVPPM=; b=IXCn6qWkQJ+Miqo3V9ULWWVwJ/Yn/PBUd+KgFxvLdVg3yc2CtLrni9/2uWR0QckJc+ 6X3WbMYxHg8LL9iL3beM0HN8F7QMIxjcOFUsM4erV54zueHslmg13+ZpAxbG4aBbT6A3 e19xt4rh7QEkBV0wWNoEyIzXQbZ3AfldFm1zlbD2o+PqcGa30t8sflH1CA+y8FPO5Xop J62M0lzeJFqWArSgQckRGk26wi8np0CdRWSME3zON7MbcvhHTC5KOaRd4UUoU51beEr7 eu0OMxlUuZF5Xmr8v0fWcL93pjkl6XE6mFvqvc6TFU1DsKcYbWnt055tCmkQSBrpU0bP uKjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=s47E8kmUO7Axjneenq2z2PEZt152NhvvcL2OApIVPPM=; b=cXezGeRsoJgXLoaqoENwpo9+XDXeZ0lu5HnEFFL947hvtzAmz8yRxZDiKYcVZts6AI 087/90VHzsVrG1BWKeL/pf3lJ9GlpCX0pqF5FuvWKkCqQEaRsSxVZN9GIcKeNjOyNzzL +Bfvg9Z0J5mHHI34CFGTFh5sqs5L5sNdjIDbE9bzSOU4UD9zmfhMHSSSBhJAqnBQdrJj d7dsvVSW8amcyn+exxvyVwc9aPljWDq9PGszPsB8QbT4wBZSOMX6GlkCcghLvc6boWy5 yvdaJuaEVk3QHVGwQkvACAvKB2OaPGCZWtZJyr+ENg0u0qQwEf6uPIpk8mffstgfTYvY kU7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXURLei24xtM696Ecg7bfrALDArIR0LJC/35UZrKe0a8xYlAp5A ZLSOwibpxwYmuzJJJ9rMlmtIv2C5JAw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9GDXnRObhCHUYQ4QJe89ZY5mNDYeiPAOlyzVVlLOxoFWr8oObQKIEuMWby5tG9JJ2fAvFy4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:130e:b0:3df:f9e6:2c5c with SMTP id j14-20020a05600c130e00b003dff9e62c5cmr2315680wmf.38.1676476813524; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rltb ([82.66.8.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h3-20020a05600c2ca300b003a3442f1229sm2603050wmc.29.2023.02.15.08.00.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 15 Feb 2023 08:00:12 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Pluim To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:02 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 17:00:12 +0100 Message-ID: <87y1oyor5f.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu , yantar92@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:02 -0500, Stefan Kangas said: Stefan> Richard Stallman writes: >> > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has >> > > >> > > Note: >> > > >> > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt he= r feet >> > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the = boy >> > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil acro= ss the >> > > back of her plastic chair. >> > > >> > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what >> > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one ot= her user >> > > find this section insulting. >>=20 >> I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting. >> I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny. >> I can't make sense of it at all. >>=20 >> Would someone who understands it please explain the joke? Stefan> Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that Stefan> paragraph. I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll c= hastise Stefan> me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the = joke or Stefan> even intended meaning of that paragraph is. One of the more enjoyable things in life is reading some of Lars=CA=BC whimsy in the Gnus manual, which I doubt is meant to be fully understood. It saddens me that the reaction to it is to remove it. (and to whoever it was that found that bit insulting, I can only say "what?!") Robert --=20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 20:30:24 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Feb 2023 01:30:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34505 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pST6N-0006nS-J6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:30:23 -0500 Received: from sonic317-2.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.229]:40679) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pST6L-0006n8-2f for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:30:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676511014; bh=iE7VyHj9vIGkR4Ka/X3+Oi+pELhEtkwalRYg7KGl7FA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=TWMZ/4lLVKiaVKqSvZgOj37oaLAMJwOOhpYBrvp/Zu+Rt2lGDeqG7yTbPiTSgY3scIOZu0r2AgqlBSc0scF4PPTkCj4W8SPMoqkiwqBUf1+LizZBEASrp6Gb54VGlikdztNjG3Y67BaSF0KOXMYAupbmZxCM+fDCN0vSDM070prQ1T5kkM3MyCmd+emFKD9Ct6RvpU9flgHIg6tuzxeuWLu+GwREeedPfb9LXXVpNnlJYvDLhhFpodFyw7vjfVl04GPyuDNOFP7BsmCng78mV7sge4vJuy9MZwDwo0dV7NtxMq5Kfj4Y5rcMo1eHC7ztoKp9qE7WxA4HPP7gVV06Jw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676511014; bh=+ZXZHOMCaBufwryfCGZVmILUO5gacWGj9FAIUMUMJsQ=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=Ld/Kb0nbBdTYld1wSUK6Xwo8kLEZ7cflcWdtHGA7XgH31H4Ef+HkNzdgJ0njKtpMJztLtOgBx/N//Xb+6WLAI060OgD57ckf75r8nPCZW1X38hUks1ZP3rFBTF63nyqodk5WgCMjZfD45I2lgmwnU6uy+KHi1r8P/vPlXvmcQsrrtSdNJUAo7FH1fNHFCF3qnc+QINU11z2uf6V+u9gVL+eh8G5D3eVfjlo1kTKRX+7rm52Qr+Aq+BBdWPbwlW6eoOva7LN/4nLhNMilTICRpO5F2d7ZUAUftjl/iYGG/z3gRYwFfkdFkU+q3lCO3S+oDKhgP7dareU39LolUJWByA== X-YMail-OSG: 7Z2igQMVM1kBaQFWSo6CYwp79OUsyPTbhCxEFc1E0_bqAnT_IlmOGN2ZhPt.dse MGpCeCrDEJ0FYAOU9lBAIja7Dtpc2Fctb2sQyZM1b3MrvcFyNCTBjZzGXHTs6yVdRouLO9uHpfwY b5hqTnbC4J2nZndAEfgZDxdszCkUOFbmhFhKA_j6mBvMBwOZq_2DwEtcba_7.tdjgT8r.n.D2FrQ zxrV_q_HxnX7JTn3fydgwMkYqu2sZJJL6A7XOr8etbPfh6xEowjn4wTgL0W0LZluOLzVZa_nFPzn irqfEGWdJ_GYPwSINBgNPsrz.HQC2Rw8BCFkl.jwNTmou9lW8yXZIoudUJEioPf8dLSfe0Jl0K_F d.xMQq3kS.7jiou4NUSU7ikB..K0m.zjtycPVYN3n6lS54I__e6eUyBVzq4wY8fQg2eZaD8sMA9P uRJ9ZbgaIrJW8lN3iy_E6_akpWSF22S8rCYMv.9VJOdbnx_WKyy3SEmx4oCyVG3mxg4Wq_FmNRqk yiEGYYWjV_XNbsbL6tx0N58dV78n2Np4dqWqaB10CXXyPpCUjHhE84joTBO.iZfVoFCjavo7yFzF TEwrOOJkJVlmwV8N6WgjcBV6b8eVjV8mu9a6Lux4mLllbOM7tE8ZsT2cy15CWR5u1u8Jc07uKQKG 2Q4XT4XNrWlF3RU.4GU17L9JcZ.jPGexcfDgoxR7J4.lCUu6CaGnp5RtooQgS_Qom0xibsdE3S77 XDrfkOBscwzbRZyC2bQlU14EegG0AjtGksT2ucXhKG.rkPsYZbK8r8wI8dPU08ZZ890RJlGT7J27 PO7zdj6nfbjkLAwEJz20bGX4QXi1T5yfdoakbM6Ra0krBZGnj075dEeGWT.h3W.lVU2oiEA.dXpQ oKZanv97V0xW3nzJ8TCkV9uIlhoEtBQh2ynKrIUD8M.fsU61W.liIskfpVrRsgsiTV1F8bUFBtOv e8oq4zj00eIjddLx6zYhBlCZBJkjW1Z5qmghJIJBPhdIjdX1XyamQOMxqsJNAiurVBuhtsI4I2tj kZKjiacfG6S.yLzz6X.KBGDdYDDasYvtzoTgOJSSptJScyhed5Bj27binGP4iU3KyQ19xhY6OKsA yVZYy_IleOQiIkR11H1z_..PNQCG9JqcKqz7Nscvpk9WR94HYLsy6TGbD7AwKxlNBU3uRmevtQh5 g5d0ws1Q6AZ7hYkmkzacUolchQ0cTkWf1WtP8Vm_RUoFKCWnnoAsR6FE958xBiY7oQ8x4MG4dszx TB8WWZlilNZ6l1lUQldbHhZSI7fM9mt8tE9S2ASSwarRYlaKGPKz_yhEKC0JJ6cMwzbW0XhEC7N8 B0izUrIoNInHpV._rsxYpSbm_9AFsSNDica.OhVScFN5Q44xATsYMf7V2picJuiKn0mHjKSyHTtL SYKJWGUjgVt3Wd6mfJ1Kpr6Mq59eoYPhKF8UMXDCMTnNYKwMuaXJG7GPyN8uYFpycXc4FpDZ1bM8 FHBbQhXJD4sK0Et0VDfSlGGw0eLL1rVuMHbEUkaWkkn.lFE.Cpmb4JEdlBwNQc1flytOd9ZLOLOn ETT.Eh9l.bePJXfVs5EwNipZgOhfw57rTjFK93vUJZ_2ih3IuuE8gN9mtGfAoSNzPFTevwWZw6Lf 15627aiP.dNR6WyfqFwaAHpCyO9MMjNyPKqfOmRPT0MLj.QnpSFLsEdomPh5AEPi0wf4PdaPhL9y Z.23OBgFQ1emssfJnW7SdUsu8ycpCrFTb0nSnr1eqb3HbrKxytIon4Esd.7tQNPz0VGN8MJHmwDJ eszqTJCiP5kYGogHW1481jo8e2ODToEIm5yCtKoBKvVorKpA0wO3.oHTISrgxgvSDjtAhRhFrOTm kqW8RxFleRM3qp48sl3wrfLeHu_qpAjlfLDIPm3Si9EoAWBHIAAsASMRubfiGE_OX6uPCrltFz3I awmh9QOTz0DHAqZIakmA4.5MmyctcgmjsxMEsq.ycFSiNsQKi0IfMi242yreiA.GSoUy3tWMW_nY 4QuiMbXCLCIC36gvS9abjPDtFyNAJVkJAeYPvOVMYAFw8wB4gkpv59HRhy6livlS5GG4AA6SQr1s 03aF4uY_XACDcxvrC4.UoyR4fG2.j6n8k6z8JgCT2McsaCWz2UTW6sOn7zUKnFvOMsTJsJ4yXENM jFKdL5sU.lM4SgovCpuXUu8n1HVwqPXh5xVE.ar3uJZRqYTt_G2n1uRmSE8pITaM0xvYdWsWCpV8 oyyiuNEnOJy4yvyEawTrtE3zYidYzxeGkHEa5wUYel2KlyniiWVqstXQVyeejifc- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 01:30:14 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-vmkgs (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7b93534f8bbb19af1b6f366c53256594; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 01:28:12 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:47:59 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 09:27:52 +0800 Message-ID: <87k00is8kn.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1954 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Will it be ok to do such replacement? That's Lars' call, not mine. > This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I > did not get this information while reading because I did not understand > the joke.=20 Maybe you need to spend some time on the Usenet? > May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what > kill files are? > > I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files m= ean: > > 8.13 Kill Files > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20=20=20=20=20 > Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill fi= le > entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel > Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code i= n there. 8.13 Kill Files =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code in ther= e. In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite your kill files into score files. Anyway, a kill file is a normal =E2=80=98emacs-lisp=E2=80=99 file. You = can put any forms into this file, which means that you can use kill files as some sort of primitive hook function to be run on group entry, even though that isn=E2=80=99t a very good idea. Normal kill files look like this: (gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen") (gnus-kill "Subject" "ding") (gnus-expunge "X") This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the marked articles from the summary buffer. Very useful, you=E2=80=99ll agree. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Did you read this section or not? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 20:31:43 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Feb 2023 01:31:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34510 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pST7f-0006pa-3m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:31:43 -0500 Received: from sonic316-48.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.174]:43036) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pST7c-0006pL-VC for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:31:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676511093; bh=e5zS98ylIrb4h/8qrVNBQMNFCqzxrYCWjI3javEPPjw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=dN2w2QZ6RGkRf3szSa9kYezp55MjUn+SwTW+ZLRFRlV4Ahuoe9Oz8EssbGlYNAEipZTLJv1hwdJPl9BzZWcoyM5f9887Hv/kq3YpRoXqhOOnAJCVH8jw0/XIwCUzmADqZaOQwLqE9A/V0QzzEre7OujfUZih0x4jJuRq82rCIzD3YDweGibiERTuDS1q3COz5SJTbrHllHu+ehlNnVJoAYB6xfC5dR3Xlel36FtZY1y0Ixx3xuzQ5VQnTTOnET35AlbmhT7znsFYoz6G3yX02S4AHOjxLFFABuJJFxuPXVjcuqN4vNkP2qKuu9W5ItpK5tMNyERxiu0Qll9OyK/ooQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676511093; bh=AEwNg/DPE0kHUtCU2n4K39KQom7/BE0hbiTGlbF5OXm=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=q/WqcJe/vNBK3mxwn89g/9u8+IIvqYx9HHtsmAKRAMZHfR3SEFEzMSDl1enK5gddEKi+Qbbab1SvAwRcvtKsA+lnVN6cDvWx6AQ4r+h/5XinMFbizKjCgBzDktD1NitRhQ7KnWUyXAqlrRjHfh6hEynVwz/taR4nnnQvjue1JNAAyG1nbVXPQcp1tVie2HZgasNCPHQBRu1xS2SnrBnl6en/1ivPfth6XWwITrK/d9jA1/1KtFHZLBgw+x5gGCZk6//yN5fIWeLS9rNV+raXGdgWRx5kSog95iRCX5z5VgQhYE9VD1k6RKjriEFtzeJTSo8mZWyxUlMDD9A/1yROdg== X-YMail-OSG: eusfsygVM1nvow4yI.Dwn.FRF7SaQLSnP1q0JOjO6P6LoGaXcbrWoub47kRweea iKrV306OHzEHN_EEeXskKrjRCqMbaOHLXuDET6x8.Gh8C.ytvfSPgAHSPJDzbs8qd6TdSF5vgRZM 0GjI_wYbX_7wIXLoT0KFEBMylesCo4CDi.hKVsg2FAFXs935bm7oqRC2BZhwKc2n7bLeOMcxePmC Ztsm4Zyp.jJEMB577O4Qu7OwFUadGDcP7wuf77z23lHkxqoEvKBU4IDiDen_V.JGCbwX2osYVI.7 UpGdbEVuzSnCxV1ZT5O73X1zwUlzBybQX3evCRiIFF7vhCNkc06ugJQatuTwGnSAnimqMzO7UO0D KwzSMgfbFvP0am4sx83Fdnlid9M6v.T2AsPlkWUGf885TOay6GVZRjbc25rcOHEcTeAkATRdGAZP FQnaBM9lNjbY0_FiCLYCHhtGpDJAV2TG_kco75MtstXFUgV2H701O0BxOsOen9iQvmQxLNGpYF9v 3Ye2ZvethZ9G3XeSYSZV.OKv0h0wMen.qi5NMxO6kTFQEQZ9hP67CiLCoxJuQxwhttzc1WBmaJrp tTgF3ewRooWwydVFX2Lk5dTNcd0Vn4m5yEL0dWKtLjZvAznKM9.lnGEo9AiOveqsjT22fJG7afGj uZtac4vYQLCfGxLxn.VeDK48yFGXtKk5nN86aymnubUopEVYpe1D5x2GcVMHbnOsq72CXEU7Zkm8 zAcrcG2NNuYcWC0jHCeSAs3kK.F9QgSQengnG.oNQ2ighM4s7Sfwmr9QbS_ZlbH.PuERGEhaH6be BC3q7WXGNdhaPKOtfNJ8lpuQr_4YuK0cvrT.Ng_skdZ2c4DOBrlHB1sgwAywVjCjJlmDbeZToTFB WccswIFjdWi_0FAcqmAjYhFqX8GS735mVaE6OuDPiE_Y6pkvfkDWqzwLICioq1ewwZhRHUxS94Yg Q8OmrUFg_aMUOWSse5BrAn7XXzKo9tS.ODRsefEOE2pFMgCwnKAMYmUt8XNbA62dad_te14qDF2C QVYWySHbNmciHpI85AarHes.zr2RkCXaZLAaAqgg7rSSTSAsOXFucIsTx2UEv11v.DQZupj7ewco _6PaBYzj75iK0bPfSCy2ZxLT3DK0ZUcFcq4HBR9F6DahLQfDC405dYaz5CEYVfLLgFS0hi7VrkKr H1ksNaftpxUtHZcqX_f_7qDgOUuUBKig9XrmzhgccRbcFccx169iwRCGUDUEvyGZXw0M.lw45O6x _O4U6TfVlLrQrfaakuE_YcOjFcqtFEqMscFsmKYops87QlJwCm0OMSOrMMSfKMoixapCmjXCaRMM eAGA.TWcCilQc3xHlAIz9hOYP2sZu1qQXDmTQ5oL.QOIJsLUdZL.5ICi_AIjJZ88qPyVqu1pXAPZ pzenoF9LJfJhdtWVAJNI_c.NWsETDC2YthtDlwedc9a7_FBiVsoKpUzX_GHfAGby.3LV0qtY_Orx .I.PEPEDe1xIWuejn1Mn7pByc.1bcltwAHmxmrXxwBgfgffPd5YDqNqoUVdo.f6LbB_xRXf1kvcd WLWgsogMyv_gq7cnUrxhia4RSyCT0F8_e71SeZAm8w7CqoSSmcLpGp6jsTD0PaVaeI1Ma0sRPT_B giNNXHxFkfRzQWuJfwgK6KGqjSJkl5GQFcUb7.L4mut5nQrr6M9oSD7FONrT9SEj8IvVSDpL7LVd AonkLEu72dWZuiskNrMrSBO8VwLYXVUIxyZYYifjqsupHvze5BZ0WhLWtfSJMl1.vBKc85zw0u0Q U_TtegWSpZLYLemNIyIf3zn3Kv5mD8ZBc9y8rDaOz_R_a4zD8hRgP5WUK.j5Gs_xMF9UCZLhr2Xu KqH1zIY3BPAUgjFZlfrLRj6GB_DvGWyc0WY7KvFkO2GELh6ay3n8kty6Rod1bKWuFWWO.GOR9JXL opHlz.Ek6CLhb6.StF38e99bH6ifN0KzFk..XFY3Q7a0QLxfpvpKChyztah_h3_SWEAHvzI.t7v8 1RhbS0bjoD1ZxzkjGm4Rq.yPeX1Ephh3tspl._FU6gSp3Qe9ZbQHBDg9OU8pseYAHRZ2WqcWyDI1 litYzq3TFeaRgMWgsDW47VU_pK9hsvre1cbVzkIrLpHf9s9MOg9XmqMrv9DJOT5QV5br2H.J.8aB ZWzr31ud7N5_HKN7XQquIpusAp2zFd4dSfsVz8Y.1OKjctTHz43OcNieqwPsW2PmWNQiGG4hk.UZ 9ahBo_ZZCem0XivVDsfFwES3bIpUlWsE3pPSkFxxxrSVQDw8e5PSPfMvRDtkTbzA- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 01:31:33 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-8hlql (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e4f4cf6b04671a4667f19f5fe6e9551f; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 01:29:30 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:55:04 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 09:29:10 +0800 Message-ID: <87fsb6s8ih.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 681 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less > clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains > technical information that is hard to understand without understanding > the joke. But then that information is explained further down. > I am not asking to delete every single joke. I am asking to change or > delete the jokes that impair ability of the manual to explain the > technical information. Note that I specifically listed concrete jokes in > the initial report. I disagree that those jokes prevent the manual from being understood by people with normal reading comprehension skills. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 15 20:37:00 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Feb 2023 01:37:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34522 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSTCm-0006yT-2d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:37:00 -0500 Received: from sonic317-2.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.229]:43365) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSTCj-0006yD-Po for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2023 20:36:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676511411; bh=tcqau0o6ADbEPO9RpfiKdYtmErqVbbJC5EQERTa5MSo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=hx7lSuc9npeiCZNdDBSrGlmRYQ8wuiIX5s/gZvnxgxsz2uq1uO/5hsTzfI76qAv6+YeBBgKA9VotQiyV7F/1Phg964d1Cn3HGFq7kxv8TyODS+ZhCyp/frth3NOMOwrDSkQtQKodSjXvKz0EXsWL4MEtlmSa008O7d1QrDkpHY6pKZsCR4MSlCAX75sebeQfNL/SCfk647Kz58TOtmYfU40SbxfdaluJru/z6ivjzI/kIMhG5SIwY7frmu8IOOwk7+teHRybMvLDp2FWcUB6qaRxoCFIlrk/pzKBMXMoiIZvexCojKKNqgb1krSBsBia5FQqRJ0mt1IEs9DjI4VxXw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676511411; bh=UEaKxvP1jmvzZxmE4yR581gkp11ii2WGoTQCz1UNcGl=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=tW0DuOvk0BmKzN7VsbMo5vRlTJBSh/3CbsaRLTBRs7X4W16Tx8qXZ8YBMkDHgo//0lHsaHlg4dmnHlIXy5+ss8qLrbU5GiQd17WDQvnm/6qO12qdRLb983+159brArrE1pQK06hA+cUx31tA5zHXmMpxn9SaTyjWCK3CL4XPbHaAZNWNtd6KoYg/eGkajob1FgVqmskX6JfTPL53t9zR0ouYY27aYUSjuedpV6VCuWe1b2F53BN0uQYiBnqxlCLDsmGa1qy0ExTxgxe4YZNOgdqlcRasuOwKo5NUq25oECcBrN7pds8N2OBKoK4LBT/8hleTSHbLTkNB6Wg8Ne+Qog== X-YMail-OSG: GtLxLBYVM1ndDyeYE_jjSGpDi6dVhZROXMmQNLTtU6CLmVMHjaZhJC0s.Ac4cQv pQ7Z.sZeUQ4o9orAg_z8tzkTVhlAH_twuUsFDlpSCs1eGiODyZQAoqH5YnX9P8Fhe_.Cv5A7mkbO C101YOsaSZVQ90gGH.RsJ.JK091nqo4Tt3W6L0r6s5S.4Vc25fVkKRAZ915e1qN0KdoGKr8vstpJ 4nl1x4jj7T0DFbJzUx0wq4H5cfKTjIcv68kBvqie95.9RGXJJ_OsqqutgBAz7Ws34M0bPIjolwG. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 43bdfadf6529a4a808f319db29f7c0da; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 01:34:48 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:37:32 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 09:34:28 +0800 Message-ID: <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 788 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics, > like sex, races, politics, etc? If such a topic must be mentioned as a > part of technical description, I see no problem with mentioning such > topics out of necessity. However, jokes in the manual are supposed to > either raise positive feelings or at least be neutral. If we know in > advance that a significant number of people will be annoyed by certain > kinds of jokes, are such jokes worth it? Where are the jokes about politics or race in Emacs documentation? Anyway, people who find such jokes offensive, instead of taking them in good humor, are not a ``significant number of people''. They are just very loud. We never did agree to follow their rules. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 00:23:41 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Feb 2023 05:23:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38216 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pStDg-0007b9-Rw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 00:23:41 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:45561) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pStDe-0007az-8N for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 00:23:39 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.5.201]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000055D9C.0000000063EF0F5C.000018D1; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 22:23:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 08:22:40 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: * Ihor Radchenko [2023-02-15 17:49]: > > May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what > kill files are? > > I only found the following, but there is no [...] Content analysis details: (2.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.6 RCVD_IN_SBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL [197.239.5.201 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu , Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: * Ihor Radchenko [2023-02-15 17:49]: > > May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what > kill files are? > > I only found the following, but there is no [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.6 RCVD_IN_SBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL [197.239.5.201 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -1.0 MAILING_LIST_MULTI Multiple indicators imply a widely-seen list manager * Ihor Radchenko [2023-02-15 17:49]: > > May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what > kill files are? > > I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files mean: > > 8.13 Kill Files > =============== > > Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file > entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel > Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there. Ask Internet. Kill file - Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Find sources: "Kill file" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (September 2015) (Learn how and when to remove this template message) A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to ignore the person or subject in other media. Kill files were first implemented in Larry Wall's rn. Sometimes more than one kill file will be used. Some newsreader programs also allow the user to specify a time period to keep an author in the kill file. Web-based forums, including at least some web-based Usenet portals, often have a similar but usually simpler feature called an ignore list, which hides any posts by a specific user, though typically without the ability to ignore posts for reasons other than the username of origin. More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down, with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader) only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined threshold. For example, articles might be score killed iff they violate too many low-weighted stylistic rules (e.g. containing too many capital letters or too little punctuation, implying an annoying reading experience), or only one or two highly-weighted rules (such as the body containing objectionable keywords or the origin being a known source of spam).[1] -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 00:37:55 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Feb 2023 05:37:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38225 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pStRT-0007xe-16 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 00:37:55 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:60201) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pStRR-0007xU-1I for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 00:37:53 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.5.201]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000055D58.0000000063EF12B2.00001AC6; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 22:37:53 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 08:24:46 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: * Stefan Kangas [2023-02-15 18:36]: > Richard Stallman writes: > > > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while si [...] Content analysis details: (2.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.6 RCVD_IN_SBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL [197.239.5.201 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Po Lu , yantar92@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: * Stefan Kangas [2023-02-15 18:36]: > Richard Stallman writes: > > > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while si [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.6 RCVD_IN_SBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL [197.239.5.201 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -1.0 MAILING_LIST_MULTI Multiple indicators imply a widely-seen list manager * Stefan Kangas [2023-02-15 18:36]: > Richard Stallman writes: > > > > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > > > > > Note: > > > > > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > > > find this section insulting. > > > > I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting. > > I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny. > > I can't make sense of it at all. > > > > Would someone who understands it please explain the joke? > > Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that > paragraph. I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise > me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or > even intended meaning of that paragraph is. Why don't you ask Lars. For single person's lack of insight, that shall not be deleted. Especially if you did not live while reading newsgroups. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 07:25:15 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Feb 2023 12:25:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38658 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSzne-00070R-U8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:25:15 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:35297) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSznd-00070E-Dj for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:25:14 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E66C24040A for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:25:07 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676636707; bh=UvWW3rilaBVQO5rXAYeVkQEjUEHm6id7QsBMdyq9MXY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=A+oJCDTEjy1XZxpQG/v2o7pYDyzAjlig+KRiJslRcQyXjvYAFf5FxwOoMQ9HE4DYX JmiBxBMqhWGEtsybFp9PUtPus1Nddpk5EfKMbg3va0SD7DSTLN2DvYIkl7cA9nALa1 cjcHS+5/bYJZPjZKTl1uzIQoBWYD0MUYlEM/pwOhbCIqAeTBJwyORJC5JZN4DdTCYb rsj3tbBdxSplkvMwqvA0uriS4U8RJ4LaH/DIC7GsijLqzBRAyEZWLIcLad/t+GD+ya bj+QwpKHKR7dc7J0scElYc/wPks9Kzkv4fSixtaoNBdVccQok1pss+fdavFGYS4c3s hCfsLeVTue0lg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PJ9xZ0wF9z9rxL; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:25:05 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87fsb6s8ih.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> <87fsb6s8ih.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:25:43 +0000 Message-ID: <87mt5cbhrs.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less >> clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains >> technical information that is hard to understand without understanding >> the joke. > > But then that information is explained further down. Do you mean in different section? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 07:37:54 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Feb 2023 12:37:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38713 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSzzt-0001HW-OA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:37:54 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:60499) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pSzzs-0001HH-0J for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:37:52 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3073F2403BF for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:37:45 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676637466; bh=AcIUXfAE3NMO09aglJX4IvnWkcHz+/ykrxIQeKg4bqo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=nJf+7AzvzdMA5cNP2XLJjC8Up/wgSKC1Pw/nuoFoXkZ0KR6QpyWuq7fKQAzxm1cM2 0MwaURh7KdZcUF8UwW3xh1I/lAbpPC4urGQt7t415GGjRyo1kDtHKJ1Z+/Cd1Coy7/ uXji16OX+8b5m0YZ/vSF0B1/J18DRKBIjBzIvG2kr7tMku4hUVzyPTpLxEi3Wa5xxZ p/ybGXMwu4RR14Jz+Yw/X9LHMC3uyzuEAqw0YzqPPlsYIjNcND6/3JTVkUMeTUQqna OplDaCV3KFLZugv9/aBIDADUBr2vPbFPGuGQ5HMr+ONytx1axFw238HXDQVIWsxxbT rbVsW26/OQ3iA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PJBD805yhz6tmF; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:37:43 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87k00is8kn.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> <87k00is8kn.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:38:21 +0000 Message-ID: <87k00gbh6q.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: >> This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I >> did not get this information while reading because I did not understand >> the joke.=20 > > Maybe you need to spend some time on the Usenet? Why would I? For me, Gnus is first and foremost an email/rss reader. I am not interested in Usenet. I use scoring for reading rss feeds, not Usenet. >> I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files = mean: >> >> 8.13 Kill Files >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>=20=20=20=20=20 >> Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill f= ile >> entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel >> Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code = in there. > ... > Normal kill files look like this: > > (gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen") > (gnus-kill "Subject" "ding") > (gnus-expunge "X") > > This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the > marked articles from the summary buffer. Very useful, you=E2=80=99ll agr= ee. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Did you read this section or not? I did but I still don't understand what "kill file" means. Is it for marking articles read? Deleting articles from summary buffer? Something else? The text before the paragraph you underlined is saying that kill files are like hooks, which makes things even more confusing. Why not making it a simple hook then? Then, the manual says that "Other programs use a totally different kill file syntax". So, Gnus kill files are different from normal? What about "Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files"? There is no explanation what "pesky old kill files" mean despite multiple references where I am supposed to know this a-priori. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 07:48:43 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Feb 2023 12:48:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38740 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pT0AN-0001dD-Dn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:48:43 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:51021) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pT0AL-0001cz-Gg for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:48:42 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7194724035D for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:48:33 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676638115; bh=5nDCt9RemEUSx+UsAJV+r+iMqFrEPKL6Zf8P+luWuQA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=rfe/bdQOcJu3rsnsX5Ir+nI8mdilLgQkkbVQBfIKzHtGlRtZi5rR8sgWF6494KhTo NFOIGYTgMFy7fOP9VDSuUfc5s8+xABWztIgg8Ys8fqmS9UbRln/VL3rejPM94MYuaj zRmzINl2zasjtyGG/OpZPSLSHF8kIS2zwe1+ayUeqUjEmc6z+SIG9/UXyj9HP0BfeM E9dzG8zcL6brsWX+Yrpc5ePuGExvpYb/dpHu0EjQGi0WFMOWGx7WuNZYmmSb6PbvuD LCPLyEVlW2QBphooxN9jXvHRS9sSWp+E5SW1dxQc6GYSKU2/pa8mml9IMLaZWiTqZp RSVQT6cwieoiQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PJBSY4VqYz6tnN; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 13:48:29 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:49:06 +0000 Message-ID: <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > Where are the jokes about politics or race in Emacs documentation? No. I am asking it in more general context. Trying to align my understanding of acceptable and not acceptable jokes. There is a lot of disagreement in the interpretation as we can see, so it would be useful to arrive at a common ground. Ideally, adding the official stance to FSF maintenance policies, to the already existing section on humour. > Anyway, people who find such jokes offensive, instead of taking them in > good humor, are not a ``significant number of people''. They are just > very loud. In my question, I specifically emphasized that I am talking about topics sensitive for large groups of people - whole cultures. > We never did agree to follow their rules. I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the manuals. At least to some degree. : Please avoid statements about the presumed typical desires, capabilities or actions of some demographic group. They can offend people in that group, ... ... If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas, please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary things. I think that the above two guidelines can be applied to some of the discussed jokes. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 23:19:13 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2023 04:19:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42121 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEgq-0005I0-TS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44704) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEgp-0005Hl-Q2 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:12 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEgj-00077Q-6C; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=LX27WsPfvm+FgDxFDgv6Yk8V6Wp5fPiEwIIGsMYf/s8=; b=ZN1Ty+K2KciI Xppyy/rZn9utOMw+UAg7dPVndV56pUOf4bdsNxOeOP28dps/mFsbSXB4p/MUa2uv42dPQp88pByKv Wrbmyv7A861pLFXZuCHTtyToBniird6HkdXdr9zoOtkEowtuGDH7eBKH0IjFQUJ0pgeqO06JDTCfC GnzTVaTBZ86WpbVbvJCXvyaZ8Rsu//DGvTr7BwwrLGqRCF1ZPTKXll3ZYvbQaSOeaESlbOGaDz1Ap 8kxWIvK45vfXz+MbYtEGG1W6ibOEq4foh5SrCG87NiBp5QH7nQ/F8SSSIbv2BAk0UGvZHyUpsV/SB NLIvPiEheQyUuN/SMO1eOg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEgi-0001Yx-IA; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:04 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Robert Pluim In-Reply-To: <87y1oyor5f.fsf@gmail.com> (message from Robert Pluim on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 17:00:12 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1oyor5f.fsf@gmail.com> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:04 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, stefankangas@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > One of the more enjoyable things in life is reading some of > Larsʼ whimsy in the Gnus manual, which I doubt is meant to be fully > understood. It saddens me that the reaction to it is to remove it. A manual is meant to be understood by the readers it is addressed to. A musing that people find it hard to follow is fine in a personal memoir or an artistic work. If it is in a manual, it gets in the way of understanding. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 23:20:00 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2023 04:20:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42127 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEhc-0005JH-9T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:20:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59546) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEha-0005Ix-AM for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:58 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEhV-0007BH-3q; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=Hd1KBpPSEOvl9AsPlf7X1O4QDsjyqXKtoyYKblNlrew=; b=ji4BIqC3F4Ug k1+zQFsFsInMb4OnpNwebLjSSNt2pcyS5SwQmjABlbqv6bRg+zhvWmJ6lPaC3F6OzLPVKzmqTFacu 6TuTGlHwpfdfcTPUuV4hOaZliLiCfIgxTe0UwezYjwWKBhy4Bfw04Od9oNHTqAtrLttbm1Wm6Ujav G16wp2dVbAUcG9NqvzjYiwLcJYbj38lBJtBS6P50gYGO8ipeBH/ZLHO09GIA/B6/qbGfysfs7mmVF T1KwNgtuyskY/09gge5orrJjMa/AWDMipqAH/pXZ09wCgJKTwZLRhKrcHh4tTEwY9qTlKa/mgyEk9 Qxp+V0WPF81wEAz7lWqIDA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEhU-0001dq-SC; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:52 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:55:04 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:52 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less > clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains > technical information that is hard to understand without understanding > the joke. That may be a key to making progress. If some readers can't understand the technical information, that is indisputably a problem. The question is how to fix it. Can you show is concretel what technical information is hard to understand for those who don't get the joke? I have never used GNUS. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 17 23:20:08 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2023 04:20:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42131 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEhj-0005L2-JO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:20:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59550) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEhb-0005J0-Ni for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:20:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEhW-0007BS-B2; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=bGVWMGjklOK31hmIqVeyOLqBVTTf1lsz3ZC5UYyJ/J0=; b=B1JcAsKs2Epj hiypFoC5fRia6zTu1gmubHJKZnO7XwfdNa79ADedrK1yH3stdPURoCKp33cYLfH/ni7VeIrd/Hd92 tTuN83Z3ef9PTtLqjQ9QrlGq/NsxKzOWhGE9hv6XVrScJcZYjv8xciChaI77w6h/WbZfZwxyfJxUo DTOGbcBbjBGqDr0GwkM6USLsPuQcHYPBFr+grURq9km1E/nC2mtFPwVHYWE6E/HuoD3Zh8xwAk3Z9 HfMjEf2fk71BXc/G362lk0H7Veos/bOxwC4VX2yfsoGDRiNC5ZHVjkJ5jvwCIuul6PZur7artKKst v43Tsdy3LXe4pEC6N3LPUw==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTEhV-0001eG-P2; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:53 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:37:32 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:19:53 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their > > unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power > > which nobody should have. > I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics, > like sex, races, politics, etc? Nowadays there is a fashion for hypersensitivity; whatever the topic. If you approach within 50 feet, some will say "That's offensively close." No one is entitled to that much control over others. GNU manuals should not insult anyone, not even with a hint, except perhaps those who attack our freedom, for attacking our freedom. But we should not have to tiptoe through life lest some hypersensitive person take offense by association. > Or do you > mean that statements deliberately attacking/mocking people who use Gnus > (or certain parts/functions in Gnus) should be avoided? That is what I meant. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 06:13:54 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2023 11:13:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42621 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTLA9-0000Eb-R2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:13:54 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:37131) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTLA8-0000EL-0Q for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:13:52 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36FCD2404AA for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 12:13:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676718826; bh=gt1JG/joxVPXsz75659N/VJTADkHBKe5jNlrWWsu+Ao=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=RjWnZQW17qK1j72Uyg+m7tL+gv5Zzft2qU3TW0GWEHaBQ9IjGvlI/U6sMumAjyj3Z JEz7cffDh8WNG+Vs4TUgt5Ft4V9lj2clncklKm87Mj/Ve0L/brfWoQjxHSlO6etURA KY19jzv36Bp/DOdyuCcH636ovWLzl90c8xqbtB5Blx2Sq8S9jqKKa/T/uPEU5x3/EW dLCdd0YHg+zkHiV0wXjltWh/OoihuoiTHgSYdRHXYlaKC/uar3sbMEKr1ACNHduzKS gexUTY3Jr5TC76NnEXmykhJp5ICOLLb5xSJGIRafVS1ll+NTF7PpGGdQtgFbRNhSaN GrGztXwkoAw1A== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PJmJk69gMz6tnw; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 12:13:42 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 11:14:19 +0000 Message-ID: <874jrjkyyc.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman writes: > That may be a key to making progress. If some readers can't understand > the technical information, that is indisputably a problem. The question > is how to fix it. > > Can you show is concretel what technical information is hard to understand > for those who don't get the joke? I have never used GNUS. The paragraph in question is 8 Scoring =20=20=20=20 Other people use =E2=80=9Ckill files=E2=80=9D, but we here at Gnus Towe= rs like scoring better than killing, so we=E2=80=99d rather switch than fight. They do something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay attention! The technical information is that unlike the concept of "killing" [*] that may be familiar to Usenet software users, Gnus introduces the idea of "scoring" [**]. Scoring is a more powerful (and also faster [***] compared to killing. Gnus recommends using scoring over killing. I had to read forward, backward, and specifically search for keywords to understand the above. [*] "killing" in Gnus is, AFAIU, hiding (not deleting) threads that match some criteria. [**] First mentioned in 3.7 Group Score, but actually more general (does not only apply to Groups). Score is a number assigned to Gnus threads according to a number of criteria - each criteria (like matching some words in subject/body) will increase/decrease the total score. Gnus can then sort threads according to their score and even hide threads with score below certain threshold. [***] 8.13 Kill Files In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite your kill files into score files. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 11:21:21 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2023 16:21:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44765 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTPxh-0002vb-6Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 11:21:21 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:56990) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTNps-0007Vl-4F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 09:05:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTNpr-0003df-Nd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 09:05:07 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTNpp-0002PF-UD for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 09:05:07 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pTNpl-0004bB-V8 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 15:05:01 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Petteri Hintsanen Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 15:59:39 +0200 Message-ID: <87edqn6pmc.fsf@iki.fi> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:qiZIFysJkaDHNJD37nRc+Gnf9RQ= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 11:21:19 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: > It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable. > The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what > a sad world would that be! (Come to think about, the only way to > never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.) I tend to agree here. Looking at the big picture, Gnus manual is full of jokes, irony, self-deprecation, and other literary devices. It is a losing battle to try to somehow clean it up by cutting some, possibly objectionable or confusing, thorns. The manual is full of them. The whole manual should be rewritten, if one wants to have it written in "neutral" style -- whatever that would be. For the sake of argument, let's say that "without literary gimmicks of any kind." I _personally_ find the current Gnus manual a creative work that clearly reflects its author's personality, which I consider a benefit. For me the manual is mostly amusing, occasionally annoying, and, at some points, downright hilarious, like the completely out of scope "note" about hazy trance. OTOH, I like Lars' writing style and his sense of humor. I understand others may not. It's okay, we are different. As for adjusting the tone of the current manual, I don't see much return of investment. That energy would be better spent elsewhere. I'd leave the current manual as-is. Thanks, Petteri From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 23:50:12 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 04:50:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45362 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbeN-0006KZ-Nk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35256) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbeK-0006KI-0D for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:09 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbeE-00014w-8J; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=KNNgW3rsYLf0bJ93hyOgwu5A6ZNuhLkCv13kjJOc1n0=; b=a2BRVSVoEQsf cbUYdcg8mJJiFUXYyDXFviGm+YHgxXx7vo5uihqWzUGszx/+qWezE7rOHTWpaE/DBZZv+RkSvq4lh jEyUJvRubN5Q3JTisjrTRp9FfqhKcI/gniJ0vMMe2BEY+qYeCoT0KJRlDSTWrwfhgHOZAU1nfEiyY AbQqTDrSUp7qugYUlOS5lWnC0RHNCI0g5SPzr1M3e7MElv74zGhV6lmcSr7RBIgWuBdN90RPP3fDL ABzE7JqZcgBklp82Fxiz00sJAZMH5w+2ym6APMJ6icYDY8X3jCrmFSUuTsTqLx9sJndccDNzJ007m l2yt585HxeKSJVHFQCI0vA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbeD-00009B-SI; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:01 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean Louis In-Reply-To: (message from Jean Louis on Fri, 17 Feb 2023 08:22:40 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:01 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used > by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some > unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header > lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that > person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the > future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to > ignore the person or subject in other media. I see. But the manual has to tell the reader this, if it mentions kill files at all. > More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a > more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score > files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily > complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down, > with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader) > only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined > threshold. That seems like a useful feature. But the GNUS manual has to explain it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 23:50:39 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 04:50:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45366 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbep-0006LJ-86 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34004) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTben-0006L4-64 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:37 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbef-0001Rr-Te; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=eKDtOQi+N2ykjRh8YeNWMVQBQ1tww61Jd99SkAvtnhk=; b=Fv271pwFFnP2 oPeiEF2GhVd8YBtpFFWnteimeqbdtWlmC6i+NYFbZsofHlmxOnzW5DHrl5OWeiVbYfKizh/MRqWHV 0yJNlZnK9wyrKG1ZQEo/JbSdDaENafG099VL2ARU2AH054A9kVwDxn2dob1dl0AEN5anY7AZs/jKn umyYR/3zJ3EnlWi26i01GeFPR8caV2bKjTWS6j2ZUPXFunEbQHyTdk1LpttHb9qJNeV33p0ZH3PYU RT+m5eFRdBFaA17FWp4l5Ddbb3Eh1Z0zt+y27mX3JEukIA9lQkK4SLwmC7JihSNpU4O0tzWWL6bIy rCAFHWmdrS6onhJ3WX6lAA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbeH-0000AK-HM; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:06 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean Louis In-Reply-To: (message from Jean Louis on Fri, 17 Feb 2023 08:24:46 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:05 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, stefankangas@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that > > paragraph. I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise > > me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or > > even intended meaning of that paragraph is. > Why don't you ask Lars. There was no need for the answer to come from him in particular. > For single person's lack of insight, that shall not be deleted. I am not saying that joke should be deleted. I am saying that the manual needs to explain its serious points weriously, not just with jokes. It needs to what kill files do, and what scoring does, and how to use them. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 18 23:50:46 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 04:50:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45370 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbew-0006Le-Jv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34020) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbeu-0006LQ-SJ for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:45 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbep-0001ZS-KV; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=zyeupwyrXeIqsr/ZPTPPdwcEI+eC2d5Oh+nZu2kmkaU=; b=N+Jg7GH5bUcu r9/bENjqkds8hntNY3MSOenFGnsHL+ewrjmWGsCnmxqzBhTALJO8EAHKptaAVNh7LVNyiUqQoNEtu r9fZlswYevI0Gu/rvpiAolNNIvdvYa8qK+mIqE5E4RF7atIAVtEQj238XOBjaFdg2v5byjvVg+Vpb VsFmbCUt5aJ+yF6Knw4USfJ/ByHTuORgSC85nH/GY5IfaS56QmEG49avfukUHoRGuZU5XMh0su6vv wsODboRKBDQ9xIVB+6HkBnPbS6W8YQGVwD4IJv4caOLWA1mysOtK6x3RNYvFkDQ1HvFYQDTD8YuGN oTvqW1fkYWOwwuq7AmnMCg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbep-0000Gt-Ba; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:39 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:49:06 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:39 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > We never did agree to follow their rules. > I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the > manuals. At least to some degree. Yss, they do. The points in the Kind Communication Guidelines are not rules -- they don't draw precise lines. They are guidelines to apply, and how to apply them is a matter of judgment. We should never write anything to offend a demographic group. But when someone takes offense where no offense was intended, we have to judge the issue by its specifics. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 00:07:14 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 05:07:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45428 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbur-0006mV-6L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 00:07:14 -0500 Received: from sonic313-37.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.60]:43319) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbuo-0006mG-1l for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 00:07:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676783224; bh=N4hnMdEl5ZAMAxpORpiFd5IPgusUviKXmo0cnLa04ZM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=JKKxGFngl7yfisRqBuU88dGyWwnnxXeg/BJ/ZIXNhC21j2h8GS4G2ig0bkSWSCoPRx5Sd+YTP2U2i70PcvJ1Y/Yg54yCfAapkmqywIDdt61hIwLZ7th/QqMo69App8s17R9/hgWE9uV/EYz9dqTvsSiCTtj9Y8vI3gdwdCNvsiuoW8N4qFeINqPnJmjQeimuFptIyCvIzeNT4BUXn5tnhKxpke+XKmUYSJDjAJ/dr4I4Q2pJuguxCcJTEqu1lfrkRIghy9eEoQ1ffPvNaltnvbstsczDVleEo3TOdWP76grrsVJbzDkAUNhv58EafCPomKGp7tcfY2ChQnwdNyMOcw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676783224; bh=k2xDRks18ALDx5MZPFZ3BqQbqg243jL/SF6+GRoxDUK=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=YCJQAwvWtQxHV35Wem7l6tqnCAOWFxiiY0O2q/FV+2N6RQQGUX/IEbPzc8m0hFULzkBLapnCg0Q8T5t3TCGoP9ztH4rE2Ih9XDeENU7H3OjlHrkbKNcx1bfiR2FdnpF0JwTTddENU7rw3ztNYTi2ba3l5LCLVv7p2gSWovDX/sTnl2wBZPvfHZrGgsltQeP4Y3LUH71Kbr1dDJbMEbVfoUdZ9fdcky1w10NHhJmWtPSXdvLn25sTxe9gxuD3aJ2r42opsFFX8E7IErCc/kVvvRj5rDDH7eOJarF3UzRvkg4zEvzhowzguQSWRbmVcPpLe6C1rPHYiBxGy5yitxkieA== X-YMail-OSG: EVPKu78VM1kFu5NCspg1GvvosQfdEDz8XhofjRsfPJl21Z4fwp0TwcJA9BELc5N _mY0Q3.KFS_y8la03_SfwTfvvj1Bb6ktkpceB10M4bCyo0z9kUmUEOmmeQ4ZfHjVZ.169MRlqlM9 r4TwClxu_PMNm5a0PgSHKLyMacXe6thFCtCuLHYscpAdPUOrlHaUAGTTaYm5Gna_UF83ION7uR9g dTCR4M0WtaCH83m0tEIbpFO8A7_lR8I31uAKomsYtGwz4Qswf_a5FcIAizsipsFQ4LVfpXbhGL2h isQgFoZ8MHYM.jdcTlKt_VHFTb_uGpvvRUlGii3lr9R1WCfOoBhfl5lHH8hEzshfjOKPEDr5Qfom KLZvndhLsUdLqZtC53Eh8B.e71L_LCWFK3OBf.gxsTpHsDhb.GjH3Dw4j7w4zmJpca.3ZuefhBin .dvlvogilQl1CRl0c82rPYBicSU7Sqnbdz3H8B8bqw7Yf8aleqSAXYRd0TtInGdFdL_7jLTls8Ai aUa_Osdk7LXRG1StffawvW5GFXslVnE0CMTHTkOIn.g6DXXR3r5clnGuJlssgA0xRyp8wIlsby11 IuSY9BCjUx2wdkSZbeidXUBmMyWJ5OM0KpylvqU..LCGIHiKpzVWIcylpPwj3_BATImchNdc2fH3 wMnI4TgCVt7k9BaPy1EjAnMDvqYvMVbUkvu7NWoJUMVH02o1vtW0LMPLSh8.8Mz1BC3hmAKVg0vr T7J7GxGu55dqkKRclUZoNkjKOII2s9ZVO8rGtl3V23MCFVQrU4jDuKT1lZf8XjSp_A0TSnxWWw0r i45PjjQGfzHsV64ZTkzxOHgyE7PRS5kvHAGFMFl02PE4o7nRkLAmEtg8kxytVOUcRbqKV3XicgkW fc.ZQO.WPzF9iF_O74DDcNLqy66ik0uuItS8ZJxcP2voq25zaXWT0dVgMiAcB_YwZqCYLb56VGsW H4bPayVoy9OztPBKSJW4mJQ7TloOhW_T60voTJKnHL7mah4QA7n9NtohreZnkx99t62gwaDES2Jg VKgNVfQUgpNWtlCru5yHDMEh4_CJBZy1GHvt8sq5rzAXyDLwH5Oui1x5fNw2Iuq0HLCSw0kolRJW V_f68NgcR.TvjgJOyvKHg.M_FQVd1lBAmPnInmLn9x2rLleNEXchfokiR4F_DnSbaOTVh7Us70E1 9yO2QLlZ_eg9yNJSHgqNqGNkOhl6Xs10Gz2wABeWHpa.9TYmYsCXPnE5qCwZmhQOj9q3.s.cVyXh J9jYh0ztiu68dZO.QiyWziUdmeKOZbecLkOAtH.EvgNT6nqCX0m5W6eFHuicXcQXR5XXrCXmueVX eYMfATXKXuTdlHNfIyedAD3T0dAlIY3Z7GLIkwlRyR33dUNQj5UHxb5vIXDAZwgPQzw_fs0p3YCW V87TWaah3wMHBiDaEQlvAE.LQWjbFABuTskXD_PfZNPXJkbwu0H98vc2qoGl6K49X0mKG7TNejiA lTHg_jnYvIYydOrDMFhvUcEMLSLTS1yODyFJx3fVu3CjpXJ2c9rES76io0ufn_7FM9K.VawBKjYg sg3yw_h9VhvSnkAO6V70ZD.Boe5tikcdvTp_ak4SJvy1eBQiRDDerPeOvH76owDs3IyeYigaeXFg N7SXo3K9O_2fiX5DuV4ZnW1DkHwc8AcmoCLxZ7mUqBw3iE6D2b9awXoPP.qXDGYDuIHDtV06uJ5F jMjWJEn6PC7c.PxuuCSSI5E1E4oT29ewyKsYsUmOKOZlwF.bEXro.fEo0iIwq4bD1Vu.Tn0nqnHF KySAyKUv5NRrDRhZL.yURME34xKdqJw2S27mqPfCBr9G0SSMKsIGvIrnsLQE6H2liaXYy7zzMYFu J1w6_g1MFMtbKBAos.mmjX0rJHUg3dxdCom8Om21nlqSWV5yn2vAhuhJE0Qcq_qkE5ZpSqU1OW4s G0eenRIj1vW9TYJbjtnj5qZBgcMbIdZM_rIU7QC2Cqt6VVj8ZzP3iYloV9Q_tN4MhJPz2G8WgFVI bDkItvsPmwUE.BQaqhA5Zuj8RTEmwPmcspxWnJ2kZoA92xY2tw7TWUZE2NB.slwFtIKNJBT_SOc7 jMrdh1fDmkaonrC4Y8whj6iMSWapjJh8t3sDnBbeF1Ih3VTbitUa1Sb.mQHQl53.zqyFjg2APO50 DyutE9U8kkzBNStMAbpIs.6DX_IozU91f8h4gxMz3A6VAfkhf6nuO6c8YK2ilgpVDH.NFBPsJ9WH a96eowRbnfmrXDXH979Xi9i5tfiVp6XN1KGiqb_w4VgDxFa4nAIro6KGUsH9UDlYrS2uBL87FFVC n0Btklyg- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:07:04 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-97g7j (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5262205068a10a056fc827b618a61087; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:05:00 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sat, 18 Feb 2023 23:50:01 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:04:44 +0800 Message-ID: <87ilfyjleb.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 21275 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, Jean Louis X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used > > by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some > > unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header > > lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that > > person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the > > future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to > > ignore the person or subject in other media. > > I see. But the manual has to tell the reader this, if it mentions > kill files at all. > > > More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a > > more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score > > files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily > > complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down, > > with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader) > > only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined > > threshold. > > That seems like a useful feature. But the GNUS manual has to explain it. And, it does... 8.13 Kill Files =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code in ther= e. In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite your kill files into score files. Anyway, a kill file is a normal =E2=80=98emacs-lisp=E2=80=99 file. You = can put any forms into this file, which means that you can use kill files as some sort of primitive hook function to be run on group entry, even though that isn=E2=80=99t a very good idea. Normal kill files look like this: (gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen") (gnus-kill "Subject" "ding") (gnus-expunge "X") This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the marked articles from the summary buffer. Very useful, you=E2=80=99ll agree. Other programs use a totally different kill file syntax. If Gnus encounters what looks like a =E2=80=98rn=E2=80=99 kill file, it will take a= stab at interpreting it. Two summary functions for editing a GNUS kill file: =E2=80=98M-k=E2=80=99 Edit this group=E2=80=99s kill file (=E2=80=98gnus-summary-edit-local-= kill=E2=80=99). =E2=80=98M-K=E2=80=99 Edit the general kill file (=E2=80=98gnus-summary-edit-global-kill=E2= =80=99). Two group mode functions for editing the kill files: =E2=80=98M-k=E2=80=99 Edit this group=E2=80=99s kill file (=E2=80=98gnus-group-edit-local-ki= ll=E2=80=99). =E2=80=98M-K=E2=80=99 Edit the general kill file (=E2=80=98gnus-group-edit-global-kill=E2=80= =99). Kill file variables: =E2=80=98gnus-kill-file-name=E2=80=99 A kill file for the group =E2=80=98soc.motss=E2=80=99 is normally call= ed =E2=80=98soc.motss.KILL=E2=80=99. The suffix appended to the group na= me to get this file name is detailed by the =E2=80=98gnus-kill-file-name=E2=80= =99 variable. The =E2=80=9Cglobal=E2=80=9D kill file (not in the score file sense of= =E2=80=9Cglobal=E2=80=9D, of course) is just called =E2=80=98KILL=E2=80=99. =E2=80=98gnus-kill-save-kill-file=E2=80=99 If this variable is non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99, Gnus will save the kill= file after processing, which is necessary if you use expiring kills. =E2=80=98gnus-apply-kill-hook=E2=80=99 A hook called to apply kill files to a group. It is =E2=80=98(gnus-apply-kill-file)=E2=80=99 by default. If you want to i= gnore the kill file if you have a score file for the same group, you can set this hook to =E2=80=98(gnus-apply-kill-file-unless-scored)=E2=80=99. = If you don=E2=80=99t want kill files to be processed, you should set this variable to =E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99. =E2=80=98gnus-kill-file-mode-hook=E2=80=99 A hook called in kill-file mode buffers. 8.4 Score File Format =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D A score file is an =E2=80=98emacs-lisp=E2=80=99 file that normally contains= just a single form. Casual users are not expected to edit these files; everything can be changed from the summary buffer. Anyway, if you=E2=80=99d like to dig into it yourself, here=E2=80=99s an= example: (("from" ("Lars Ingebrigtsen" -10000) ("Per Abrahamsen") ("larsi\\|lmi" -50000 nil R)) ("subject" ("Ding is Badd" nil 728373)) ("xref" ("alt.politics" -1000 728372 s)) ("lines" (2 -100 nil <)) (mark 0) (expunge -1000) (mark-and-expunge -10) (read-only nil) (orphan -10) (adapt t) (files "/hom/larsi/News/gnu.SCORE") (exclude-files "all.SCORE") (local (gnus-newsgroup-auto-expire t) (gnus-summary-make-false-root empty)) (eval (ding))) This example demonstrates most score file elements. *Note Advanced Scoring::, for a different approach. Even though this looks much like Lisp code, nothing here is actually =E2=80=98eval=E2=80=99ed. The Lisp reader is used to read this form, thoug= h, so it has to be valid syntactically, if not semantically. Six keys are supported by this alist: =E2=80=98STRING=E2=80=99 If the key is a string, it is the name of the header to perform the match on. Scoring can only be performed on these eight headers: =E2=80=98From=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98Subject=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98References= =E2=80=99, =E2=80=98Message-ID=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98Xref=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98L= ines=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98Chars=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98Date=E2=80=99. In addition to th= ese headers, there are three strings to tell Gnus to fetch the entire article and do the match on larger parts of the article: =E2=80=98Body=E2=80=99 will perform th= e match on the body of the article, =E2=80=98Head=E2=80=99 will perform the match= on the head of the article, and =E2=80=98All=E2=80=99 will perform the match on th= e entire article. Note that using any of these last three keys will slow down group entry _considerably_. The final =E2=80=9Cheader=E2=80=9D y= ou can score on is =E2=80=98Followup=E2=80=99. These score entries will result in = new score entries being added for all follow-ups to articles that matches these score entries. Following this key is an arbitrary number of score entries, where each score entry has one to four elements. 1. The first element is the =E2=80=9Cmatch element=E2=80=9D. On mos= t headers this will be a string, but on the Lines and Chars headers, this must be an integer. 2. If the second element is present, it should be a number=E2=80=94t= he =E2=80=9Cscore element=E2=80=9D. This number should be an intege= r in the neginf to posinf interval. This number is added to the score of the article if the match is successful. If this element is not present, the =E2=80=98gnus-score-interactive-default-score=E2= =80=99 number will be used instead. This is 1000 by default. 3. If the third element is present, it should be a number=E2=80=94the =E2=80=9Cdate element=E2=80=9D. This date says when the last tim= e this score entry matched, which provides a mechanism for expiring the score entries. It this element is not present, the score entry is permanent. The date is represented by the number of days since December 31, 1 BCE. 4. If the fourth element is present, it should be a symbol=E2=80=94t= he =E2=80=9Ctype element=E2=80=9D. This element specifies what func= tion should be used to see whether this score entry matches the article. What match types that can be used depends on what header you wish to perform the match on. =E2=80=9CFrom, Subject, References, Xref, Message-ID=E2=80=9D For most header types, there are the =E2=80=98r=E2=80=99 and= =E2=80=98R=E2=80=99 (regexp), as well as =E2=80=98s=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98S=E2= =80=99 (substring) types, and =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98E=E2=80=99 (exact match), a= nd =E2=80=98w=E2=80=99 (word match) types. If this element is not present, Gnus will assume that substring matching should be used. =E2=80=98R=E2=80=99, =E2= =80=98S=E2=80=99, and =E2=80=98E=E2=80=99 differ from the others in that the matches will be done in a case-sensitive manner. All these one-letter types are really just abbreviations for the =E2=80=98regexp=E2=80= =99, =E2=80=98string=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98exact=E2=80=99, and =E2=80=98word=E2=80=99 types, w= hich you can use instead, if you feel like. =E2=80=9CExtra=E2=80=9D Just as for the standard string overview headers, if you are using gnus-extra-headers, you can score on these headers=E2=80=99 values. In this case, there is a 5th eleme= nt in the score entry, being the name of the header to be scored. The following entry is useful in your =E2=80=98all.SCORE=E2=80=99 file in case of spam attacks fro= m a single origin host, if your NNTP server tracks =E2=80=98NNTP-Posting-Host=E2=80=99 in overviews: ("111.222.333.444" -1000 nil s "NNTP-Posting-Host") =E2=80=9CLines, Chars=E2=80=9D These two headers use different match types: =E2=80=98<=E2= =80=99, =E2=80=98>=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98=3D=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98>=3D=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98<= =3D=E2=80=99. These predicates are true if (PREDICATE HEADER MATCH) evaluates to non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99. For instance, the a= dvanced match =E2=80=98("lines" 4 <)=E2=80=99 (*note Advanced Scoring::) w= ill result in the following form: (< header-value 4) Or to put it another way: When using =E2=80=98<=E2=80=99 on = =E2=80=98Lines=E2=80=99 with 4 as the match, we get the score added if the article has less than 4 lines. (It=E2=80=99s easy to get confused and t= hink it=E2=80=99s the other way around. But it=E2=80=99s not. I= think.) When matching on =E2=80=98Lines=E2=80=99, be careful because= some back ends (like =E2=80=98nndir=E2=80=99) do not generate =E2=80= =98Lines=E2=80=99 header, so every article ends up being marked as having 0 lines. This can lead to strange results if you happen to lower score of the articles with few lines. =E2=80=9CDate=E2=80=9D For the Date header we have three kinda silly match types: =E2=80=98before=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98at=E2=80=99 and = =E2=80=98after=E2=80=99. I can=E2=80=99t really imagine this ever being useful, but, like, it would feel kinda silly not to provide this function. Just in case. You never know. Better safe than sorry. Once burnt, twice shy. Don=E2=80=99t judge a book by its cover. Never = not have sex on a first date. (I have been told that at least one person, and I quote, =E2=80=9Cfound this function indispensable=E2=80=9D, however.) A more useful match type is =E2=80=98regexp=E2=80=99. With = it, you can match the date string using a regular expression. The date is normalized to ISO8601 compact format first=E2=80=94YYYYMMDD=E2=80=98T=E2=80=99HHMMSS. If you wan= t to match all articles that have been posted on April 1st in every year, you could use =E2=80=98....0401.........=E2=80=99 as a= match string, for instance. (Note that the date is kept in its original time zone, so this will match articles that were posted when it was April 1st where the article was posted from. Time zones are such wholesome fun for the whole family, eh?) Finally, two actually useful match types for dates: =E2=80= =98<=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98>=E2=80=99. These will allow scoring on the re= lative age (in days) of the articles. Here=E2=80=99s an example score = file using the method: (("date" (7 10 nil <) (7 -10 nil >) (14 -10 nil >))) This results in articles less than a week old getting a 10 point increase, articles older than a week getting a 10 point decrease, and articles older than two weeks getting a cumulative 20 point decrease. The day can also be a floating point number: To score articles less than an hour old, you can say =E2=80=98(0.04 1= 0 nil <)=E2=80=99. =E2=80=9CHead, Body, All=E2=80=9D These three match keys use the same match types as the =E2=80=98From=E2=80=99 (etc.) header uses. =E2=80=9CFollowup=E2=80=9D This match key is somewhat special, in that it will match the =E2=80=98From=E2=80=99 header, and affect the score of n= ot only the matching articles, but also all followups to the matching articles. This allows you to increase the score of followups to your own articles, or decrease the score of followups to the articles of some known trouble-maker. Uses the same match types as the =E2=80=98From=E2=80=99 head= er uses. (Using this match key will lead to creation of =E2=80=98ADAP= T=E2=80=99 files.) =E2=80=9CThread=E2=80=9D This match key works along the same lines as the =E2=80=98Followup=E2=80=99 match key. If you say that you w= ant to score on a (sub-)thread started by an article with a =E2=80=98Message-ID=E2=80=99 X, then you add a =E2=80=98thre= ad=E2=80=99 match. This will add a new =E2=80=98thread=E2=80=99 match for each article th= at has X in its =E2=80=98References=E2=80=99 header. (These new =E2=80= =98thread=E2=80=99 matches will use the =E2=80=98Message-ID=E2=80=99s of these matching= articles.) This will ensure that you can raise/lower the score of an entire thread, even though some articles in the thread may not have complete =E2=80=98References=E2=80=99 headers. = Note that using this may lead to nondeterministic scores of the articles in the thread. (Using this match key will lead to creation of =E2=80=98ADAPT=E2=80=99 files.) =E2=80=98score-fn=E2=80=99 The value of this entry should be one or more user-defined function names in parentheses. Each function will be called in order and the returned value is required to be an integer. (score-fn (custom-scoring)) The user-defined function is called with an association list with the keys =E2=80=98number subject from date id refs chars lines xref ex= tra=E2=80=99 followed by the article=E2=80=99s score before the function is run. The following (somewhat contrived) example shows how to use a user-defined function that increases an article=E2=80=99s score by 10 = if the year of the article=E2=80=99s date is also mentioned in its subjec= t. (defun custom-scoring (article-alist score) (let ((subject (cdr (assoc 'subject article-alist))) (date (cdr (assoc 'date article-alist)))) (if (string-match (number-to-string (nth 5 (parse-time-string date))) subject) 10))) =E2=80=98score-fn=E2=80=99 entries are permanent and can only be added= or modified directly in the =E2=80=98SCORE=E2=80=99 file. =E2=80=98mark=E2=80=99 The value of this entry should be a number. Any articles with a score lower than this number will be marked as read. =E2=80=98expunge=E2=80=99 The value of this entry should be a number. Any articles with a score lower than this number will be removed from the summary buffer. =E2=80=98mark-and-expunge=E2=80=99 The value of this entry should be a number. Any articles with a score lower than this number will be marked as read and removed from the summary buffer. =E2=80=98thread-mark-and-expunge=E2=80=99 The value of this entry should be a number. All articles that belong to a thread that has a total score below this number will be marked as read and removed from the summary buffer. =E2=80=98gnus-thread-score-function=E2=80=99 says how to compute the t= otal score for a thread. =E2=80=98files=E2=80=99 The value of this entry should be any number of file names. These files are assumed to be score files as well, and will be loaded the same way this one was. =E2=80=98exclude-files=E2=80=99 The clue of this entry should be any number of files. These files will not be loaded, even though they would normally be so, for some reason or other. =E2=80=98eval=E2=80=99 The value of this entry will be =E2=80=98eval=E2=80=99ed. This elemen= t will be ignored when handling global score files. =E2=80=98read-only=E2=80=99 Read-only score files will not be updated or saved. Global score files should feature this atom (*note Global Score Files::). (Note: =E2=80=9CGlobal=E2=80=9D here really means =E2=80=9Cglobal=E2= =80=9D; not your personal apply-to-all-groups score files.) =E2=80=98orphan=E2=80=99 The value of this entry should be a number. Articles that do not have parents will get this number added to their scores. Imagine you follow some high-volume newsgroup, like =E2=80=98comp.lang.c=E2=80= =99. Most likely you will only follow a few of the threads, also want to see any new threads. You can do this with the following two score file entries: (orphan -500) (mark-and-expunge -100) When you enter the group the first time, you will only see the new threads. You then raise the score of the threads that you find interesting (with =E2=80=98I T=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98I S=E2=80=99), and= ignore (=E2=80=98c y=E2=80=99) the rest. Next time you enter the group, you will see new articles in the interesting threads, plus any new threads. I.e., the orphan score atom is for high-volume groups where a few interesting threads which can=E2=80=99t be found automatically by ordi= nary scoring rules exist. =E2=80=98adapt=E2=80=99 This entry controls the adaptive scoring. If it is =E2=80=98t=E2=80= =99, the default adaptive scoring rules will be used. If it is =E2=80=98ignore= =E2=80=99, no adaptive scoring will be performed on this group. If it is a list, this list will be used as the adaptive scoring rules. If it isn=E2=80= =99t present, or is something other than =E2=80=98t=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98ig= nore=E2=80=99, the default adaptive scoring rules will be used. If you want to use adaptive scoring on most groups, you=E2=80=99d set =E2=80=98gnus-use-adaptive-s= coring=E2=80=99 to =E2=80=98t=E2=80=99, and insert an =E2=80=98(adapt ignore)=E2=80=99 in= the groups where you do not want adaptive scoring. If you only want adaptive scoring in a few groups, you=E2=80=99d set =E2=80=98gnus-use-adaptive-scoring=E2=80=99 = to =E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99, and insert =E2=80=98(adapt t)=E2=80=99 in the score files of the groups where you= want it. =E2=80=98adapt-file=E2=80=99 All adaptive score entries will go to the file named by this entry. It will also be applied when entering the group. This atom might be handy if you want to adapt on several groups at once, using the same adaptive file for a number of groups. =E2=80=98local=E2=80=99 The value of this entry should be a list of =E2=80=98(VAR VALUE)=E2=80= =99 pairs. Each VAR will be made buffer-local to the current summary buffer, and set to the value specified. This is a convenient, if somewhat strange, way of setting variables in some groups if you don=E2=80=99t = like hooks much. Note that the VALUE won=E2=80=99t be evaluated. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 00:09:30 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 05:09:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45433 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbx4-0006pn-GZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 00:09:30 -0500 Received: from sonic311-52.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.233]:34475) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTbx2-0006pZ-Lt for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 00:09:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676783362; bh=chXpq4bX8GyGI43mG0A+mZso5et7U40YXH+YS7twI6M=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=YN9qxbzbllALJ6OT34w7hPaSDSzoBNkTpVh0GFkUzFhoWl8jSvgQAOCoqllnWYycP3Gw3R1wNha7Pdk7G7vnYcQ/lAFd5RcN8c+OYjiyK8cxySspKV2CVhK2i1bK2US8/Rz2OgFUMvXTeggBMN+QoddkYLiiEz2O/mSTDBCVe6OufhNAW0trLCM0CiEGz8H49zLgwOhOA9ysvJlnbw5Ww+QkaOl7XN3VpMIZ24Cga8lkUdOhgdRHy/T5G1neEg8dYxB7C82ya/Q/XGY1/77K6dhzvEkrd8qHFXevg8hy/4vcTOtoQAv2/aOT1sOPdPTLFJ1et4QsuLUoWGGoJ6++zA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676783362; bh=XeGtRrwJLeYejVB0Id3JYO0D8h/oN7Bib92M+nnjfpI=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=Btmd+qclzfdrQ3BVw+Y/flZ8QLfFY5+1oi0n309ANBzZ+Ro68qPr3FsGYGd/BUSsdhH4F/ZjV6xQEf1DVDBpFMb1iR3ASugOKgTEwGwznzAbuZlta2Z/egAXPi/5IXFf8YQQUO3Jqcw+4bYS+ceJT3MCxzA5gNJ978+fWuuHXlxYB+DJ65UrslMNQqo7Nr5FZu6H3AgRO8XGq+QJ0hsCvPFT24OPjv1jw0eh0MQlRQtdkFAVyxtL8jrB917LAbMQPygAoobdi7sau2GZ3Jo/LspM0Xq0QMfYHN5HQXqIYPxF/Da+DBfjXh7jgPXzNQnb925sFhH6tqh8juVKfBDMvA== X-YMail-OSG: z3tDMzYVM1nQXZO_jkflSop6vB1_GOYeOCJMLFqf2hsjusULQLq3ni0srR.MEll bT2BKEVdVi7jNia4M3Leaho1Y.bWJwbzQjnp98bEYeSayWVDiIsJ0EmHHNNd9UlBzLDZCdl1AEuM doK9sS.mNyEKwXcLn9gWH.zNw9QZGXPew2oNbZjnhCyfiInp.GyF3w.Hy32ybY7m2jkNY2v_.KKa SU_8gzeH.DGoLjxpjUiXvv2FMUBDfM8zphOIHX79p9cKHdFYUvTEt5pgW0ZDcnYgMMw3mGDS1AvA vcz2tfOrG9DcoqzIwa2PdKl9OTCGunEMaFRQjJVcuNobPsxtskDbCj2ByMKQjnbGzxtIZnCxorOh O8SDpAFWhabVejfnfpdyJAKnpePh3FHYBTAkKX5nECHS9UpsDNEoppr456Li1e8l7XFJx1OfthCk IsfqvzN08QtBDSoHVM7EHpi6veaka.Y_BrADPbuCXCVa1mZDDb1ieakBWPBYKY2xaRLX7fBEIn7M kE86MFtWoW_w.hxdmkbzRZIxfJpGE.3JbJIWFIUdg65neHkQ3.XhCzQFFq3Pu4_vFEcBUpwa2FUc 495i34zFs.j.qhuoP6tES7nF3xHlHMLxZDvgSkg1WnLZTY4jNPjZvEHVUZ4B9UuTODJtwATsb59c yj5hFqQ5eCTbRV7QsbhgeexCIuzKBi12nMYnTBCqtwKgnMMw4LnuXWfY2DwxqDLzcIXvutbHzjcj PTnyenjEF1Eg9aqEg.dUt5JVJP1A5cv3fBWJPZqiXo6GPxK3QK7pFQn0LtGwXrjHvjzaCi.Y8y02 XGjp91DGVGDopbrIR76ryIZuQlsfpuJ0rjouy.vCIx55W1weGqFII67RbvwsMJeUVAJ535nwWzhX p10wz6iKVbo.xUnE0efQ4RCTTJye9AE8iJ5LwNwAEZ8296c3yZom0kFliiBX4ycgzQ6cS9Lo5jf3 MorfBZpR4QGyFbG5Nhc599dWJiz8XhdJAa5Fg0.gq9vvUrxqgPHWCIAl0cZqgqojBM0gKS42QLnB MZvOdTdj5a68TTtudZ7H2MK6AovXrErUYKqMvmOMO1eyq1iuD_kc46_N71jshO5cdwXlX4F3QsWC Q8hjceY1JfKBBCSbxkqwAHGvGBVEJqZFi_V3RR4Rf4nXCjq_pyP0il9Hp9qUDtQT8t65rlXdJl_F YcQ9plI1ghvPP6MFrMIqg9ZmSWkcweakB7Q36rm9qdWUa6FsgLLJW6NZgLIN5lXQZv7a1c5lLDcd 7.Ci_Hde6DAUNl029zt2In5g4_BrNh7BNqdNJaPfuPuEUcj0Oxix57cxMdek78ipqXZOIDqsfePG SWo2WOSpxzBBft96zKA4KrQTzfI_gRsqUzfUd5Y8q6bjAz2_NxbvwZooyRWe.Wd7PG8hi1KXM3xk RMym_HlKEeQUcsRq5Djilc.Z.g8JLyXQD8s4n8si5Qo6qX4i4ALI7YH0um1V2r76QOCa0zoouF3. zYcP0dlXzfhN5Ye7mdnwUfHyJkdRFyPXn2D4aR5pWK_yUwKvX.uqKMADGDqxhactLTK7kzCGkLdr S5ybrariZHK4ruHEmcSDrSAk8AJzB3aL0VFPBA6OmtrJYlFEGRai6hfKCmznyNCSSRuTq2sx_crH 9l7sjGrZbzZoCnNGkhcNQaXbUGOwdI41wJ.4rRl3Z7YLngY9xlSyytZkQ1H0v5pHpzf.iH_vElVv RmUpHlrYsHVaIvIcUzWX3Jg43q4BBDIuBdYkXlXuk6ORgtu1oL126qD7VOgxpn.zfQkjUpAV.w1G ..PeOB0hDWdBDx.zc8kWBwOaFMoYnFSSW3HBurxoDz7YXHLjcZoZny1H5lYoWF1eYDow5PCasxe5 wF1ikXaGK6DiXEqqfc_w5gGzupca11EDI2v.fFJ96XYCj5dljzZsUy.xtlOgk97qJeru_dQNLu27 eCzl1tdZgGAJR8BB2mxKawDMqy9TjL.ZYkzrUI91TOGqQWelEWfUHaKawaRz0zeMnbsOKkUscEqb h6sCpGtgj4RhLhq_Jdes6wOFkmyar0eqOkXJmZIPQxYWY3kqfrHKegYCMU1._oSnW1yS4NR4IKbo fm5C8Yl2xBaCCfj25V75qf9nKq90VPc1B9PbTSD9pALKdDZe_ML5VNOiGyzIvey2Mk4o6fAcHEYG M6qzlYSkoUSJc9zFvIuEgvNfnvyJwb0u2Rl5449nhQOo8S.zNxTx59FIZpz7bFu1YUH6a5hn09uu cj_T18uGJ9Vz.mlJtb5v00ezlNhFTuZuAvPeLVncw5BBSlBzbswjVUGbyl0vGAuYM1iO0v1IlA1Z jKkc- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:09:22 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-vmkgs (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 248499da6fe4587de778642411cb2439; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:07:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:49:06 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:07:03 +0800 Message-ID: <87edqmjlag.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 897 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the > manuals. At least to some degree. > > : > > Please avoid statements about the presumed typical desires, capabilities > or actions of some demographic group. They can offend people in that > group, ... > > ... > > If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas, > please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express > the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more > likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary > things. > > I think that the above two guidelines can be applied to some of the > discussed jokes. Those guidelines are guidelines, not requirements, and do not extend to unreasonable complaints. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 05:25:11 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 10:25:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45764 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTgsZ-0007M1-3c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:25:11 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:36797) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTgsV-0007LB-EE for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:25:08 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E86D2400DF for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:25:00 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676802301; bh=Oh83+3WIzIuN0ywsmLU4tReLnE6HNitrEKpfGxfU45k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=RQzZxPKQxu3FhMg4sTp7nnugjauLT8iIYnxAU+uRJcTKHBL+KEJRB7fmx0DFxnJ3F kDbvJTfqSMxaLUfvnZvKB+HFSfHWrzVPNQ2Zlq3w6X4pOFyTrWwAWXGGLx+NIOf3bG J87B8xisrcnVpltp4g/bNsdVodGOCs40+cN85xVJpGjTnmNeij764x4StGDmveakco 2ttdSL9vWdJAD6YMJmiBVhZD+/YHRuKoIdjO9rGiw58c6Tl/6qGcwmOHsHCzbj98ZW NUpxpKdesPbVJ4Lk0niJ4Ypo8fQ/7EjDBLU+B23a+509s7A8rZvhpzP6CZ7qRhzsZl gklgOdRySTMUA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PKMB40NsVz6tqs; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:24:59 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:25:35 +0000 Message-ID: <87pma6j6jk.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman writes: > > > We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their > > > unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power > > > which nobody should have. > > > I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics, > > like sex, races, politics, etc? > > Nowadays there is a fashion for hypersensitivity; whatever the topic. > If you approach within 50 feet, some will say "That's offensively > close." No one is entitled to that much control over others. I agree in general. However, not following the fashion for hypersensitivity does not mean doing the opposite-ignoring that fact that some statements/topics can be sensitive/offensive. There should be a boundary, albeit not the same with specific country standards. I proposed the boundary to be the topics well-known to be sensitive for the whole cultures. Or it can be a different boundary - a consensus among users across the world. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 05:35:32 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 10:35:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45770 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTh2Z-0007d7-BP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:35:32 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:43449) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTh2X-0007cu-Fj for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:35:30 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E110E240108 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:35:22 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676802923; bh=ZEGL7KsV8WC3ExTU36Z+B5QqpTRUkbxgf3b1+T5oJ9k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=PFd4/B6MfyQq0bE++/pz357t259hRCxHU3FbkbmynXGV8/IlW/Qcp4/tBPdbmWs/b 7XeTzpdf70jScKCZ4E+jw75HhIE2t2eCyVaY1eMkHQnWnsaSqi9RhyCP1Bshh1YHKS I8s6tzENtN13r+BxuvIpjlzvEJc9oLu5unwNQCG8+DSzkjbdgzwwk39UFmhzF58iiu VRjvdRcToNw4ZYHMVgj5LcvyDd/DUpfmZvjWA6gPc9Hyzo+Pt/0BFBBuazdiHB1o67 VQxjn8nCR18cyNEaidtE7d5HsSDUea1dJYivIpIXb9hrjyEg/s5b8peayz5ADr7i36 d7VWujRTgqZWA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PKMQ20bz8z9rxF; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:35:21 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:36:01 +0000 Message-ID: <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Richard Stallman writes: > > I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the > > manuals. At least to some degree. > > Yss, they do. > > The points in the Kind Communication Guidelines are not rules -- they > don't draw precise lines. They are guidelines to apply, and how to > apply them is a matter of judgment. We should never write anything to > offend a demographic group. But when someone takes offense where no > offense was intended, we have to judge the issue by its specifics. Makes sense indeed. At least for the first guideline I quoted. What about the second one? If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas, please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary things. This bug report started by a report from a user complaining about 3 specific sections of Gnus manual (Note in 3.15 Exiting Gnus, sex joke in 3.16 Group Topics, and sex joke in 8 Scoring). While removing the problematic parts is not something we have to do (they clearly mean no offence), what about rewriting them in such a way that sex topic is avoided and yet the jokes are retained. I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten using different terms. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: inline; filename=0001-doc-misc-gnus.texi-change-text-to-more-neutral-inclu.patch >From 21303f2838c9cd57c30086bf68b7a0f1b19b537e Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Yuu Yin Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:27:19 +0000 Subject: [PATCH] doc/misc/gnus.texi: change text to more neutral/inclusive language Explicit or implicit sexual language is potentially unwelcoming, unsafe, and/or offensive to some people. Also unecessarily distractful. --- doc/misc/gnus.texi | 72 +++++++++++++++++++++------------------------- 1 file changed, 32 insertions(+), 40 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi index 1769b70c9bc..0b23f2c5c01 100644 --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi @@ -3868,11 +3868,10 @@ plastic chair. @cindex topics If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group -them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over -here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) -you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can -even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs -groups or the sex groups---or both! Go wild! +them hierarchically according to topics. For example, you can Emacs +groups at a specific topic and other groups in a misc section. You +can even group the blessed Emacs groups as a sub-topic to either the +Emacs groups or the misc groups---or both! @iftex @iflatex @@ -3889,9 +3888,10 @@ Gnus Emacs -- I wuw it! 3: comp.emacs 2: alt.religion.emacs - Naughty Emacs - 452: alt.sex.emacs - 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery + Blessed Emacs + 240: alt.space.emacs + 247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor + 530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly Misc 8: comp.binaries.fractals 13: comp.sources.unix @@ -4289,9 +4289,10 @@ Gnus Emacs -- I wuw it! 3: comp.emacs 2: alt.religion.emacs - Naughty Emacs - 452: alt.sex.emacs - 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery + Blessed Emacs + 240: alt.space.emacs + 247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor + 530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly Misc 8: comp.binaries.fractals 13: comp.sources.unix @@ -4306,7 +4307,7 @@ follows: @lisp (("Gnus" visible) (("Emacs -- I wuw it!" visible) - (("Naughty Emacs" visible))) + (("Blessed Emacs" visible))) (("Misc" visible))) @end lisp @@ -4360,14 +4361,11 @@ Gnus Emacs 3: comp.emacs 2: alt.religion.emacs - 452: alt.sex.emacs Relief - 452: alt.sex.emacs - 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery + 26984: gnu.emacs.bug Misc 8: comp.binaries.fractals 13: comp.sources.unix - 452: alt.sex.emacs @end group @end example @@ -4378,7 +4376,7 @@ topic parameter @code{(score-file . "emacs.SCORE")}. In addition, @* @samp{alt.religion.emacs} has the group parameter @code{(score-file . "religion.SCORE")}. -Now, when you enter @samp{alt.sex.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you +Now, when you enter @samp{gnu.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you will get the @file{relief.SCORE} home score file. If you enter the same group in the @samp{Emacs} topic, you'll get the @file{emacs.SCORE} home score file. If you enter the group @samp{alt.religion.emacs}, you'll @@ -11900,9 +11898,9 @@ while people stand around yawning. @acronym{MIME}, however, is a standard for encoding your articles, aimlessly, while all newsreaders die of fear. -@acronym{MIME} may specify what character set the article uses, the encoding -of the characters, and it also makes it possible to embed pictures and -other naughty stuff in innocent-looking articles. +@acronym{MIME} may specify what character set the article uses, the +encoding of the characters, and it also makes it possible to embed +pictures in articles. @vindex gnus-display-mime-function @findex gnus-display-mime @@ -18213,22 +18211,21 @@ Here is a typical scenario: @itemize @bullet @item -You've got a date with Andy Mc Dowell or Bruce Willis (select according -to your sexual preference) in one month. You don't want to forget it. +You've got a space flight in one month. You don't want to forget it. @item So you send a ``reminder'' message (actually, a diary one) to yourself. @item You forget all about it and keep on getting and reading new mail, as usual. @item -From time to time, as you type @kbd{g} in the group buffer and as the date -is getting closer, the message will pop up again to remind you of your -appointment, just as if it were new and unread. +From time to time, as you type @kbd{g} in the group buffer and as the +flight is getting closer, the message will pop up again to remind you +of your appointment, just as if it were new and unread. @item Read your ``new'' messages, this one included, and start dreaming again of the night you're gonna have. @item -Once the date is over (you actually fell asleep just after dinner), the -message will be automatically deleted if it is marked as expirable. +Once the flight is over, the message will be automatically deleted if +it is marked as expirable. @end itemize The Gnus Diary back end has the ability to handle regular appointments @@ -20476,13 +20473,8 @@ up being marked as having 0 lines. This can lead to strange results if you happen to lower score of the articles with few lines. @item Date -For the Date header we have three kinda silly match types: -@code{before}, @code{at} and @code{after}. I can't really imagine this -ever being useful, but, like, it would feel kinda silly not to provide -this function. Just in case. You never know. Better safe than sorry. -Once burnt, twice shy. Don't judge a book by its cover. Never not have -sex on a first date. (I have been told that at least one person, and I -quote, ``found this function indispensable'', however.) +For the Date header we have match types: +@code{before}, @code{at} and @code{after}. @cindex ISO8601 @cindex date @@ -21118,19 +21110,19 @@ That will match newlines, which might lead to, well, The Unknown. Say @section Reverse Scoring @cindex reverse scoring -If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Sex with Emacs} in the -subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put something -like this in your score file: +If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Emacs} in the +subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put +something like this in your score file: @lisp (("subject" - ("Sex with Emacs" 2)) + ("Emacs" 2)) (mark 1) (expunge 1)) @end lisp -So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Sex with Emacs} and mark the -rest as read, and expunge them to boot. +So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Emacs} and mark the rest +as read, and expunge them to boot. @node Global Score Files -- 2.39.1 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 05:43:23 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 10:43:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45786 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pThAB-0007pw-8p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:43:23 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:39787) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pThA9-0007pi-EY for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:43:22 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A0E1240234 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:43:13 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676803395; bh=QVUrkzlYDI1VAzP9POfK9GVyUdovbnrp9u8CoeL8diA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=K1mH92KawF0yM3wLbhR+Hni30cngU1n0zLwTR2LzeinBQ5Y8bhdvB1GYuAHiznTf+ Krk+l1RnFsMey+hxJ33AkPmKc/m+rmsUwyAMGRNJ1OmTvxIunp/jZSrFr5xtmEdFz6 +BVe1D6prc6dtsAQ7ox/lGSzRaVC11a8wT4qubA7WDgQSgkn+azFltT0UoYIu+8qdj GhjdXIjSxG15jirM2QOhFSKhqVZU8r6rvlTfRkRWRcerR/4T3L2vtSd0AYon1qO+ih 7ZwtOHneSKhmvPLx037/0Vi6dBRLSTgJU90SVr6OY8l2QKiTPEWBop7EEZfJN9tHIw Bq2Il4P8ODijA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PKMb50Mzxz6ts8; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:43:12 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Petteri Hintsanen Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87edqn6pmc.fsf@iki.fi> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edqn6pmc.fsf@iki.fi> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:43:52 +0000 Message-ID: <87k00ej5p3.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Petteri Hintsanen writes: > Looking at the big picture, Gnus manual is full of jokes, irony, > self-deprecation, and other literary devices. It is a losing battle to > try to somehow clean it up by cutting some, possibly objectionable or > confusing, thorns. The manual is full of them. I do not think that objectionable jokes are many in the Gnus manual. I do not think that jokes Gnus manual are all bad. I believe that we can improve the jokes in the Gnus manual, replace some, or add new. We cannot treat manuals as a complete literary piece that must not be changed significantly even when the underlying software is being actively developed. > The whole manual should be rewritten, if one wants to have it written in > "neutral" style -- whatever that would be. For the sake of argument, > let's say that "without literary gimmicks of any kind." I do not think so. We can have jokes in GNU manuals. Officially. https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor > As for adjusting the tone of the current manual, I don't see much return > of investment. That energy would be better spent elsewhere. I'd leave > the current manual as-is. I believe that the current manual can be improved without rewriting. It is more likely than someone rewriting it. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b7649c32fbc1cbefdef98ed996c2098f; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:01:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:36:01 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 19:01:47 +0800 Message-ID: <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1065 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Explicit or implicit sexual language is potentially unwelcoming, > unsafe, and/or offensive to some people. Also unecessarily distractful. > + 240: alt.space.emacs > + 247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor > + 530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly > Misc > 8: comp.binaries.fractals > 13: comp.sources.unix > @@ -4289,9 +4289,10 @@ Gnus > Emacs -- I wuw it! > 3: comp.emacs > 2: alt.religion.emacs > - Naughty Emacs > - 452: alt.sex.emacs > - 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery > + Blessed Emacs > + 240: alt.space.emacs > + 247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor > + 530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly I find this offensive to everyone on the Net. It implies we are children who need newsgroups named ``butterfly'', and cry at the sight of the the words ``naughty'' and ``recovery''. In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion. Likewise, the word blessed is offensive to me. Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change? If not, why should we cater to you? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 06:13:14 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 11:13:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45813 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pThd4-0000Fe-Cb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 06:13:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47538) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pThd3-0000FQ-I1 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 06:13:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pThcy-00038H-5U; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 06:13:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=GYm3JjCCZojc5HqtN7Xm6Byj0VfNR4Kw3PHKyPG/J+Y=; b=Bify+3glRK1M AK3jVAKKC0x9l3OTcoe73TGN2Ifj7hkxHq4P4R7EGV/6pVGjLIS1OGKzaJOBUs/wtei9BpYbQEt0h JnpussrW3d8frOk/lBr9KLrTJVqx0+R/UIO/ECAnUDz/z7EyPr8NQ4SqxfhAtE79NC+ZqNJRdigLS fdbYCCBiHz6mslUrC65fHS0ns4tmoRvFHiEu6GwCiq3OHKRKZCFr4OtZMzY0mIFXqQhSzYzFtHC99 diYmN8IxZv75VWU51q/9pVYF8CSkUEoBXG2Fa8zYko/byMIHB6T7XFuwTEts40JGl8ehpgihO01Ca iQq13Q+1lvGuf4ooOb1ykQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pThcs-0000yz-2i; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 06:13:02 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:13:06 +0200 Message-Id: <831qmlykl9.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@yahoo.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 19:01:47 +0800 > From: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion. Likewise, the > word blessed is offensive to me. > > Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change? > If not, why should we cater to you? That's too harsh. Let's try conducting this uneasy discussion without being too harsh. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 07:24:11 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 12:24:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45912 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTiji-0002Rt-LI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 07:24:11 -0500 Received: from mail-oa1-f42.google.com ([209.85.160.42]:38447) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTijg-0002Rc-7E for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 07:24:09 -0500 Received: by mail-oa1-f42.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-171d3ea101cso905781fac.5 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 04:24:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7fFY3JnGbxM7A4K/f36JVg72BFH0v2LaMCSI4u0h6gk=; b=KZGlaSokx49c7i9UYMwDvxtO1xBe53yyeIU8LzTKyDHKXR2ghlHRreFWwu89eLjdj3 uw7t0jslJs55WSk6NeErUcMFRKTLTjAUU03i+nl+JkC3MNe5lWouuUPPIZlSayqvadNC mvRrd67Aw3rT4E/3V9tEOSnognPp+lw9QqKtR8VAa5oAorWG1eqy1K/7OjPCo/1+Bukd lqUj0otasXbdEuE/K1IR7920lCcz6vf0lr86AVminiyFl7FE08bJLDpZMeYyW2RcviUJ k9Ul6q3tvT9bDSsACFL0BzPGo43fY5tq+/Qb+PihF4y04k5+CHmsW9YQgHka4ku/ZlyZ qIbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7fFY3JnGbxM7A4K/f36JVg72BFH0v2LaMCSI4u0h6gk=; b=FqpkhGOqduRXX8mKBe+3M1ds4HnJ00PDfUBsTsQlRyBN6Fo1BXIsaqrNcQt4baj1TO gW+wXvyaqhqmdS9ijclVsGlB/oQ9bm2uO/rzlmTA0p6GNwZye2oePSGjhkFr3ItWz+ra lHJj4RY3m0iu5dsreYyNt11cyfv4Fc6BtGNij4cS+URQyRyWnAyqxRquA99NiJgO66Kx +i9ByehwlI1bQHIlh3dXZb4BQcMPSfaMTNX3y49xs1yN8UatdUNYpUOBb3aDiO8yIboN BNXeS85Qk8rB71mHybRuhWBIr1wT/shQSOKDpIhqb87pYt41l1y4U9I/U3gi/7tYoN5T gOjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUYUEw7ybUlLsNMdglatjANkDPkLmW7jiT0kU0myi61r33Ec322 rWGSAiDuKNvpKOeQyLiuIQqCKXA/Zrpg3hCxg0E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+cRftSVY78puVhRtZ9/ysFk5HgimsEmrH/QL2Ne7uBJtLWKVoIJScDZFUqZ56fUDYUiIpW3R8ta8XSHX7T03M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:968b:b0:16f:edf8:6210 with SMTP id o11-20020a056870968b00b0016fedf86210mr751680oaq.291.1676809442530; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 04:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 04:24:01 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> X-Hashcash: 1:20:230219:61325@debbugs.gnu.org::T6WltfKQ2jG0TDe7:1mr3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 04:24:01 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual To: Ihor Radchenko , rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten > using different terms. I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with "meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty" (which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by childish misbehavior"). If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on. diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi index 486171a080a..7d6898bdcea 100644 --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi @@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ Group Topics If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over -here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) +here, your meme groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can -even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs -groups or the sex groups---or both! Go wild! +even group the Emacs meme groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs +groups or the meme groups---or both! Go wild! @iftex @iflatex @@ -3880,8 +3880,8 @@ Group Topics Emacs -- I wuw it! 3: comp.emacs 2: alt.religion.emacs - Naughty Emacs - 452: alt.sex.emacs + Wayward Emacs + 452: alt.meme.emacs 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery Misc 8: comp.binaries.fractals @@ -4280,8 +4280,8 @@ Topic Topology Emacs -- I wuw it! 3: comp.emacs 2: alt.religion.emacs - Naughty Emacs - 452: alt.sex.emacs + Wayward Emacs + 452: alt.meme.emacs 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery Misc 8: comp.binaries.fractals @@ -4297,7 +4297,7 @@ Topic Topology @lisp (("Gnus" visible) (("Emacs -- I wuw it!" visible) - (("Naughty Emacs" visible))) + (("Wayward Emacs" visible))) (("Misc" visible))) @end lisp @@ -4351,14 +4351,14 @@ Topic Parameters Emacs 3: comp.emacs 2: alt.religion.emacs - 452: alt.sex.emacs + 452: alt.meme.emacs Relief - 452: alt.sex.emacs + 452: alt.meme.emacs 0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery Misc 8: comp.binaries.fractals 13: comp.sources.unix - 452: alt.sex.emacs + 452: alt.meme.emacs @end group @end example @@ -4369,7 +4369,7 @@ Topic Parameters @* @samp{alt.religion.emacs} has the group parameter @code{(score-file . "religion.SCORE")}. -Now, when you enter @samp{alt.sex.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you +Now, when you enter @samp{alt.meme.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you will get the @file{relief.SCORE} home score file. If you enter the same group in the @samp{Emacs} topic, you'll get the @file{emacs.SCORE} home score file. If you enter the group @samp{alt.religion.emacs}, you'll @@ -21109,18 +21109,18 @@ Reverse Scoring @section Reverse Scoring @cindex reverse scoring -If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Sex with Emacs} in the +If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Fun with Emacs} in the subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put something like this in your score file: @lisp (("subject" - ("Sex with Emacs" 2)) + ("Fun with Emacs" 2)) (mark 1) (expunge 1)) @end lisp -So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Sex with Emacs} and mark the +So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Fun with Emacs} and mark the rest as read, and expunge them to boot. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d929519fd37980a0fb02093d21f1ede5; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:05:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 19 Feb 2023 04:24:01 -0800") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 21:05:50 +0800 Message-ID: <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1326 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Ihor Radchenko , rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only > removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with > "meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but > keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in > standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty" > (which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by > childish misbehavior"). > > If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on. The problem with this approach is that alt.sex is a real hierarchy. ``alt.meme'' is not, so it reduces the accuracy of the joke. Trying to censor this part of the Gnus manual is like trying to censor the Usenet: it won't work. It is sad that the unsuccessful attemts at censorship from important people and organizations, including American congressmen and major Internet service providers, have been reused by those pushing modern, for lack of a better phrase, PC rhetoric, against newsreaders. One of the few standpoints unrelated to free software taken by the GNU project is the opposition to censorship. No matter if the demands for censorship come from individuals, or if they come from the Communications Decency Act, they must be resolutely opposed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 19 08:46:01 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2023 13:46:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45971 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTk0v-00072G-3n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 08:46:01 -0500 Received: from mail-oi1-f170.google.com ([209.85.167.170]:46728) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTk0u-00071w-4O for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 08:46:00 -0500 Received: by mail-oi1-f170.google.com with SMTP id w7so630248oik.13 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:46:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=SHrDnEdWVi4vEx+134vlRWdnTrAR0XOrY35K/UT/IiA=; b=lSw1iOPiNYWe+v/+ePPtiYvLkR6qsr0g6V4aLqsPXtrzVvqjsMQ9dCj7nliwgEoaeS +3A1iOlswXLbc/3rWICxXIOhTzOv6ArlZRMwP3gPoWzPfzNkEDRoSsXzCzj0goT6AgQu hDIt2vtJc9Us8AqXtesd5IrgqtyMpzkazMnb/Oc25DMyjBfO371ADqShD4zgXZcuOa6B LmCPYLv82gciL5pKx0AytEGtkuV6kaQ+eniui5pQRwKCo+NvXY/PUwbKRrcnxUhXou4P XfrDo2NuRjXKaRO89uqdRss7NPEruVOpjYCjMB0rb2cy36cCBKgMGWUfwo8HSbwk98sl /Diw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=SHrDnEdWVi4vEx+134vlRWdnTrAR0XOrY35K/UT/IiA=; b=yvqWxqaYC18hns+Mve3/NW4XZODJ8t0K3eH+sNJfTJz/w3ZzOnVjVCX8IBpnNckyEG dEVzcvW128BWZKG0IClZX+2s5ENu2mFqYHty5lqcSo/ZVIRYbdEGCnt1Cm5TP4EPDa82 Bgpbc8PZUmWOWDhNP3lnHaBhdDwCsLAzJ+bDNDFyVBKAzkdLDKM3EU3tb0HQsMwsQzzn hpkT6Cd8o6vEO7IRn6YTQDUzQhg5PMuJR5MEEYWUC1gskJT/4a5K5D+1SA5UCXVest1J o0drxWeduv+Bub0eTOvCTNQUOPtV2j0SIzhszNIbfcylXsmMQUgZjuZdSiJ/iDgAzKvP HWDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVGPJK2cYFnH5SWkNifIHEaGDdmGElmqaBnCuE9/v8FZWIS2xHk w4tswNVlVA+Qpx/6WtoYaejYF1HjMaBaovl7lmA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set96NXg27VuNT/X0PbuFWR/ciym1M1L7APldkjXIUF2UnDpPD9UeZ1rvA9D7S0TdY+/BsgjgUFtJJeDJ9Lv2Ql8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:11c5:b0:378:3f53:9e8 with SMTP id p5-20020a05680811c500b003783f5309e8mr1059434oiv.291.1676814354206; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:45:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:45:53 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Hashcash: 1:20:230219:61325@debbugs.gnu.org::0y0EZgVrg6NwtA1i:C0zq MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 05:45:53 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual To: Po Lu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Ihor Radchenko , rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Po Lu writes: > The problem with this approach is that alt.sex is a real hierarchy. > ``alt.meme'' is not, so it reduces the accuracy of the joke. alt.sex.emacs is not a real group either, so there is no "accuracy" to reduce. Both groups are made up. > Trying to censor this part of the Gnus manual is like trying to censor > the Usenet: it won't work. Installing the proposed patch has absolutely nothing to do with censorship, of course. I don't see how anyone could think that it does. I suggest removing a couple of words because the jokes are not that funny, somewhat childish, and arguably distracting to some readers. Furthermore, of course it will "work". I install patches in emacs.git every day, as do you. But of course we can't change Usenet. Comparing Usenet to our git repository is a category error. > One of the few standpoints unrelated to free software taken by the GNU > project is the opposition to censorship. No matter if the demands for > censorship come from individuals, or if they come from the > Communications Decency Act, they must be resolutely opposed. There is no disagreement about this. 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Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTyYu-0008QY-Kn; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:18:04 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Petteri Hintsanen In-Reply-To: <87edqn6pmc.fsf@iki.fi> (message from Petteri Hintsanen on Sat, 18 Feb 2023 15:59:39 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <83sffipxn8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edqn6pmc.fsf@iki.fi> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:18:04 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] It is ok to have jokes, but this manual also has a serious job to do: explain how to use GNUS, in clear language that is easy to understand. If the explanation depends on getting a joke that not everyone gets, that is a bug, and it needs to be fixed. Would someone like to write a patch to say what "kill file" seriously means, and what "scoring" means, right after the joke about them? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 00:19:55 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 05:19:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50163 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTyag-0003O8-Qn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49972) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pTyaf-0003Nw-F2 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:53 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTyaa-0000Ux-7d; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:48 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=pzdzhzPK6A5PhZlaENPo+dKXIunAvGDxw71xek5Vopg=; b=rK5aBRvQdHY5 KS6BQHx/HAbCS0xJjBWCj726r4cLFN4BRAUnHyp1FOSJA+MU7O87bZHqMpizS1JR4umrT1VtsL2jW m4b0VH5e2+x4U17cBP5as+ALA6aXBvPrsTVrxvsboEg8Vj/Bm+nSiut8nbODzvJa0e1uZa26npvYq X2oCmUNXmci1NKXOaHmCFNP6LEExA8pMZuEaJsUGPskbNrX80LTVOBIl8csCN+y2+cryA2MNyStOS C8oQNkZiVeKWTCMFcl4OmIkaFLLr3GfU26TYWDopKiaKr5Hg+nvsgLpQCjNLxm38aEZxD3YZ1hqVf 8QNlbK73cxc8mLfxKvWgfQ==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pTyaZ-0000WF-V9; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:48 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <874jrjkyyc.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Sat, 18 Feb 2023 11:14:19 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> <874jrjkyyc.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:47 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The technical information is that unlike the concept of > "killing" [*] that may be familiar to Usenet software users, Gnus > introduces the idea of "scoring" [**]. Scoring is a more powerful (and > also faster [***] compared to killing. Gnus recommends using scoring > over killing. > [*] "killing" in Gnus is, AFAIU, hiding (not deleting) threads that > match some criteria. > [**] First mentioned in 3.7 Group Score, but actually more general (does > not only apply to Groups). Score is a number assigned to Gnus > threads according to a number of criteria - each criteria (like > matching some words in subject/body) will increase/decrease the > total score. Gnus can then sort threads according to their score and > even hide threads with score below certain threshold. > [***] 8.13 Kill Files > In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a > lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite > your kill files into score files. Can you rewrite the actual paragraph to include all that information? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 06:50:11 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 11:50:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50716 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU4gN-000682-8p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:50:11 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:42565) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU4gL-00067m-Fs for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:50:10 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74B19240136 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:50:00 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676893803; bh=WF3Sy3cVAFPUAHEFwM3ZitoctOfk2pqK95wvJa/r/WY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=R3/niFP1NF2ku9wUvHh3UN5gkJJFqKWD0SJ/SwioPuX5/KnxjohWOXak+Zt+5ppfJ 5WGs72Ws0X3gacP123emjcuUjqpltGjTKFPqhM8g08+d+iheGyf3o+vgj6endSYQU5 1BwsoWFTzHok4ouCNyVzRckzd23k3xR/N2BIDpyqMaz+LwJ7sudMcGxsRxuAXmha2S YsKI/1lUhXVlwPy4T63j21aLh5eyHSpvWRWJCZrcOAVrDMnggaQpz6ZOw3ovqlTTd/ JLJQTePzz+KwaJ+jI7Ux6cmKW+fD6OVQ+YaWiGUdv+SgT69dndPIWSbghGAr4o/QPa SE3mi6+iocBxw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PL11g56z6z6tnD; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:49:59 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 11:50:40 +0000 Message-ID: <87o7poeesv.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion. Likewise, the > word blessed is offensive to me. > > Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change? > If not, why should we cater to you? I agree with you that we cannot 100% guarantee that no single reader will be offended. However, it does not mean that we should have no boundaries whatsoever about what to talk about in the manual, especially in jokes, which do not carry essential information for understanding. On one hand, we don't want to cater every single possible offence (like text that offends a single person in the world, at extreme). On the other hand, we probably don't want to joke around universally disgusting/offending topics as, say, tortures described in details. The above two are extreme boundaries. RMS suggested that we must avoid jokes that offends users of the software described in the manual. This is another boundary. I suggest avoiding topics __commonly__ known as sensitive at culture level. This is the boundary I propose here. You example with "blessed" is not something commonly known as offending, IMHO. "Sex" is. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 06:55:22 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 11:55:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50726 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU4lO-0006Fc-CJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:55:22 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:50243) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU4lM-0006FP-Qw for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:55:21 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32D73240287 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:55:15 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676894115; bh=KsS5k4cnBexIExobowJe1Y7EfpcqLVEwjToULdmwL10=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=TJ6l3+r6gDobezHKoM/xVYUjJ6NKSAfSypRfcBO3Stvjk15+TbqbuHKYKkHz8SL8L DecZDD9b+Ntzf8xMqEawxFst5ykMeA4U+yXrOvNduylVaJLnXc94eMGW6Uy/5XcEIU gjZyT00TsZ//AwE1EEA3AGze5MdlO/PhKETmGjdMxDSM+JBUC1mGm7iqYMYM6d804u cTR3obHyWtR3sOQ/tM2bsuVZERfkztSvTAxk+TMzk/LKw2nr4QVkkIlSZ7VuwB5Prc dSJpXX0k1BeObUDzg0By6N0JHJO63n3LK9Ahf+b76EbeWzJ3kWTeK+ifogdykMjmHk KNqhD3sCO3lYw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PL17j6F0Cz9rxR; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:55:13 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 11:55:54 +0000 Message-ID: <87lekseek5.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten >> using different terms. > > I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only > removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with > "meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but > keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in > standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty" > (which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by > childish misbehavior"). > > If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on. > > diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi > index 486171a080a..7d6898bdcea 100644 > --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi > +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi > @@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ Group Topics > ... I have no objections. I also asked the author of the patch I shared and there are no objections either. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 06:59:59 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 11:59:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50739 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU4pr-0006MT-A8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:59:59 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:50823) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU4pp-0006ME-0X for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 06:59:57 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 423412401A8 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:59:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676894391; bh=4R7Y6CFtR5zAd1bIKBXA9eArdNwN4+X2l8C5UDmJxt0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=dwV7NXpK6zjzI0y/qfFGKWOLqIYinE+3MGN7UZxgmDMr9DjDULS0iG/ArLTNkki3Y rsShnkkCzptwOtRBcg+StcBFmvK1npyyKM0ya0EXgkOxBlYkyN6/TBToAlOl7E0sn0 0SGYf0Omt1sOnZS69TeTbC23yhEzQnQXdUw6U92vD5fMaDYFBQt5nsROteLoGriYfH APiTW8gc56NH1eQnkUzJFMHH3bRYX/2ZHmhNlmgZAl2ecbfnRvyeiAgZ1UOOv+kZGY D98gv/tGAtoe8bLSOt5ZlURLtkh9NiPaJySENLQYlUeocpYGP/BjokuprxrRaY3Ggg R7vvNpdtuRabQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PL1F15Prbz6tm6; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:59:49 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Drew Adams Subject: RE: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:00:29 +0000 Message-ID: <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: "luangruo@yahoo.com" , Stefan Kangas , "61325@debbugs.gnu.org" <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>, "rms@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Drew Adams writes: >> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only >> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with >> "meme", > > Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-) This is a different case. "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly used in the manual itself (as footnote explains). Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example. In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and refers to the concept of sex. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 07:37:13 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 12:37:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50832 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU5Pt-0001IU-Bw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 07:37:13 -0500 Received: from sonic310-50.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.231]:35101) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU5Pr-0001IF-60 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 07:37:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676896625; bh=IjJPKoovRwIE7xQPJ1gptyXJLbjrV1PkGkVPSh4t9As=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=WYAV9eYvTJxafxJfN2v7LCrxYYx3A+kLkfpGb0SrCxzEli+Gk1i/zgFWRqIeRKkafq8w5xuvMtMLfIULUvUdVJv1bO7/jPXuBJtiGU5Z2EZFWVBRYNwwju/PlniVJ2PmlfchYtddIk/WaMHXrFIoRXsviRk9d6c3NcnkVV7u/yK5YsNacnG2ozM6fxmKazKNud0x91qAO9hhbW0BU1rqZb0OIh/f2V2bcZmnYbL1pFw4V40zfeQ3T1R7H5wH6OelJn7LTQjsGayHezHqEkYdl4gmt5F0ibdMgTC1Cnm1LWHSCK+kXRuUNDw+vU1TWjkp1cS9DaK/Tcbqra+HiyTvEA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676896625; bh=FUt/esX+nvC3MFN1phOfoPQaz23Wg+5XnwpMl3yyg9f=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=Qp6hoeNiF0VJHlErfWr28JyYJD5WSXDG4l8E11NNx4hwiwOpIo22saRVn7NyepD7Z/fJvFmm20VRbpjycrxq6/YWjhbOiRoUlpgmCztPU6u/+QHXaE40l9iLQwwogV51aFPUdSkozHbZqEppObyAWUZVe4NkRaWKFVAj+/eVvsJgh2j+Fn3TtFlW9abUTWEwYnticC1G3CbKOx8cD7LEUOW0gtBcfYIYGCAQtPA1PPSn7aspXe5dGDH2gMMgw3EKlhG4BlJkXlvKWALbZwJt0a1x39xQubXgHhEaDvMLrYjRnNeYhsJcUtQaaEMQHt18LCWq1R/faM5BEzA9gS2r5w== X-YMail-OSG: ShRRWTIVM1mKuISg40XKY6rhm5QPK_j8bfX6qnoaLHEtXbmuMQuLE08V4M0M4KX NvqpJeys9zlGU4am760pMZkit_bQhNfiT2vqhDAMv8vLy910Zf.e6cqhmEHGPu4wm4SV.3mzwtFw 53ij_uJbJr3ZMj0UxHKyGK11v2.8dmVmw_KaLG_T3cMHRVV5p67594wNUEgk197KePSnFtf04iho Uv4s7li_6jrmEfus7ra_KI611DcQDvO.m_pjDPoZkBoPLXilON0qm104otf64Syo4ak3Tn8twjgf ZKLp.edzygSNl2IXKIW8KtjfGpN4NOn8SDrlVPMrUzPvwJEGUDKPJQfU3RenKK..bHb7jns1q1Ox 1hbllIxweCtqa9Q642TeEFRLmNBHS7Sz_Jc7qU0JJrf6OGghneVQyndG6l_cXc9OUFnnOLDLjcSV 3VvPNSsOp47.ymyjp0wPrta_.RmM.HNXADbyVRnMYbA7H_2xYSczRIcuvDjqF3QlvLB37z9VtzeS fTsqzhRM4PB2DlJmoGaZuMpiBkxt4ntLzGzL7u2OdMXHzjDMbtJcgFDQP8ixnwwi9l5n1miukFIq aNmjbglot.G8IKbES3uRgp_687s09SBf7F.8XNQU0d336HG56winWgfQcdl2viKFLpgcd8NsN498 4CQYoq4W.s1Awo4wqw7UUSooTUYssmSt8_zPolmG0ox03b9pUSX6_urzaPpAtJ2P8qg16iivYwy7 dK74C.BAUqfM3MNge7SZPDDlABB5ctPogRlPCv5cGYaWBDSEYj0oJW5n5zArtxVhMRlQpOrrk.g8 XheISiUPaGdXuMHXI_jcQnA.beGniHQXS.HKIHqGhYBLVvdE579Nd5DEtxZKh6yUzaKPQ4PsOyAu gdQ8UCzaM.xxQzQLP_L.Jfhr1xiaaoYJLTkQ.OyCd2Aa5d5SREviGUDu0ll.dVnldRMkUTlSAgxI K5wZin0hs28MZpdZYylgopZq9ZaWJUZl7P.QaGuDc_R33zfIOHApuqqJWhwnWyVZe3OZ9CSf0nWN OHyUv7Be1zWPSeJl9LIQQrL.HfYknp5qOPqARvCG.76rRB4ZC4e3N.5auWor3uHPodmgzxyPqH7z KUimD.wjzlsptAbt5uJKOXKC5b7OyTrXZxsTpGP0GlbUBDs_FR9bMIW6lJEn9ak3V5SgXJJiADkM L176wFICr5ZyvLLrqUInaLKzotRYupbfbYsp_PM5mhPVTem0S6wHL5OMG2gja7ZiFDK3OoKnamjP NFUzzSqIPUv7oGHJFpddDZpxbS0yTfsfYBHuAM.cJ4vsXUetoZc9.jO2gmcOtBvA_g0dn8d9HaXJ t4r6bIW69L_HxqtOE33dY4wV1rN2D_DaevQob11bJvd.P8reS2hO8ZE67eH.H7mdGotHV5hD.MtY ezP_7c1AQ0cNEmqUxfhACGgXbApRwEIDtp48wYH6wVnl6mc1Ox6R4GFJGTjOxyHSn7uQ4CNo43HQ b6Pzt6HMmNjB69vNiMNNynIiY29eh_094xvNqAde4G.5nEnsQwNGinH1WDP9SJGdYPZON8pHjLv3 yYb0G27EA8VSOMnE70y2QDyuH6xWGGpxtIba1bFuk6aQcVDmO6lJm6NAgMjxVzGMHGSwWLD8RSHR E.rv7jRQuOYGR.UCGg4w7Xdb9tLwNIiL6w1aY_YLxwec8J7.0o9ed_g2GRUrNN1xoyC4xNeJWIJA Om8et96.VEIZI9eGLMyWPtBJ3U1N85LzG9Y5YT.lSQbugoS5TFrE7vJNDbVErtyMBdbUBh1Ouet4 03Io.KmMldPpoI6pSJU5_0jFZZHWypTGC1h99Mbrphkd0epODs0jbVcHXvI2YthEfGREr2r0KRCV 8iEjtBMhCGtpnNb4YPr16fG7IZmIEjF_diIlFkMBZbIGAlt.ByA1zY4dFC7ehKVM_fJzV6.61zQ1 s7awzrcdCp0kKKc1TUMzG7e2hZufV.rjshgWm58tuuriYS7ai0FxGvbzEFe0WjwIYZ50Sx9dunCR kJbOJKU3H0hyqmA3uwgDtfcooKsYqd.K8xVU5TUvmU4OlEb.H3Pam.6cz66xXjGqHmxEstWJvALZ N.6rR5rfOgmUEZoy2NzVpaczF.nzmtiY0PH9DHRb0tmOwu0h95Pps0HLktzyOoiubColQM_oOqfJ JmoY9Y3lMPrQYig7P5TfO7BFRIoO9Mawgtkm8NTfkzvh4wl5fMiImt1uQaDkPbaLRlHfYnkoR6q8 bKbW5H0TRgiek9aAyQdutlJ0EfT8092NMKZ20BAFPPS9qttoc20gDuG_ANNM54q6dBPkC_NalQ.5 Vanm9E5c- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:37:05 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-nc5k6 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0e757f12e5d4efabd81252eafc2e6317; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:35:03 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87o7poeesv.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2023 11:50:40 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7poeesv.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 20:34:57 +0800 Message-ID: <87fsb0frbi.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 2355 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > I agree with you that we cannot 100% guarantee that no single reader > will be offended. However, it does not mean that we should have no > boundaries whatsoever about what to talk about in the manual, especially > in jokes, which do not carry essential information for understanding. > > On one hand, we don't want to cater every single possible offence (like > text that offends a single person in the world, at extreme). > > On the other hand, we probably don't want to joke around universally > disgusting/offending topics as, say, tortures described in details. I am personally fine with such jokes. That doesn't mean I approve of torture, that just means I am not so offended by the mere existence of, say, alt.torture, that I spend my time trying to erase it from the internet. What certain people are trying to do is to turn the world into their personal echo chamber. One person who works on GNU software is a Buddhist. I am jolly glad that I am not forced to be one as well; similarly, he is glad that I do not try to impose my religious viewpoints on to him. Likewise, people should not force others to adopt their own lists of offensive words. > The above two are extreme boundaries. > > RMS suggested that we must avoid jokes that offends users of the > software described in the manual. > > This is another boundary. People who are easily offended will have no use for a newsreader. Unless, of course, they get their internet service from Time Warner Cable. > I suggest avoiding topics __commonly__ known as sensitive at culture > level. > > This is the boundary I propose here. > > You example with "blessed" is not something commonly known as offending, > IMHO. "Sex" is. Unlike certain self-righteous people who are offended by everything on the internet, I recognize that ``blessed'' is used outside its religious context, so if it was not clear from context, I don't actually find it offensive, irrespective of what I think about religion. What I do find offensive, as a person, is the implication that we as a species are so sensitive to certain words that newsgroups must receive the blessings of politically correct priests to continue to exist in a manual. Many people share this viewpoint, certainly more than those who shout at a harmless joke in a newsreader's manual. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 07:40:10 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 12:40:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50843 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU5Sk-0001NB-Dg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 07:40:10 -0500 Received: from sonic309-47.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.173]:41383) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU5Si-0001Mw-7J for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 07:40:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676896801; bh=pl6nOzxTb5ubdsTD8cT7SiCgGfl+P+p+wGKqBVVaVyM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=NuAz/Src8EjAneGv0hAaBVVIZgeiTyEqpuV6loISICiR5NDgU82usPDH5LGQ4mP34a8OKw280O2/amERWIevzXGu5V/v2CeF/BKwSPn8TYPXfFrTzcc3F+QLt3VGUOocKa9nFlf2jim29OadJJVPogSJ0ID486lHMdGzbQjIT5Z75UenRoTGgtF3yv3Im920QhEThXbTBXH+mbjrceBBNowgAajDHdOMA0/1MwIAR32O6eHADDA6/8Jkp2V4SVRhCTy5wnWsCO+EAjB3ZuwNPwuuEe0HPCxAVyxpiR/3YyRuQ/h0w1FBJdlrLQ4FOnsT1GyGUbGfC8a7H5pFKF5M9Q== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676896801; bh=WOYnJu4yy0mL6U0oGa5S+z6qFQVWBWU5BF5U/Z1BU14=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=ozWuHW+85cEGtiEXXdjNgL03fniEcL0u2me14ek5DL6a8Uy4szPNLcfUL6m19GD0QC6SbpDLIEdchU0L2o+vbzIw3w4SnvyFOO5k1tUpBfqd+4BrLDBAwEVqLuOGLlhfcQ9fESxEdtwvaSS1wlwYVCtJtR5xpml+RPhIUeErdATqDeVJn5X7e6AAQxrxjnZt8zFxDhXK6rUCg7EEmWd0gWbpZKAhM5f+fe+wnGjh+L4fTHB73tO97LIVll31M4JewzZT30ma2UCoRAtEgGxwV129ED55fVSAyUoGoNg4C9b6+SBciC3ov4rsmC2qBGHsN3UUu0NlQOsbwLutkLlTdw== X-YMail-OSG: E6blsqAVM1m_jkLpcqSmQXTQXZjnUsgcx.RBANcOnOzuHBapQ5FOh2IxyISjY2b KWC.BZ7xH2YG6gVTQB.Y2fzAVRji7byqa2ugfPcGZ7rlSx6W3xz0qlVLz_Lybi.dcpBUiBSCjXWg BIw2k_hUoBSy80DkjR1yH70X9R4CByegzoYsqOcsZjenNyasL_GZPLrZbkRvwI3v6KkoNagC.30y f9NM8QIuYNxyqkfQsuuT.KwZxnPy8.H1D2hxIekULKg6fJQ57iMlJV3LZPa.tQrjE8SUNYL0xIXC H83EJMqgFGebZ5.cqhpsC4pAV8hibV.ORFTLr8Ewcjcn7V4xBB_CZ_CiTz9uk0nEnXLJtDnXw4Mi cefvubSAIoe9vUHyJGyrDRW1FPUCBfrCK8GMww6sIzrYFHBn01fYXqsEon08F5nUYgpvnd0uOu2D xWrtzk7eZf8.nbD1ZjQbunNSgeGmh4YvoFxv9UnieqleoeKJggD2g8vZLueMcg.DG.OYEQnVXgRW F0FgUsQWPGkS2ENdqaUs9fKWqd9hyO7i.D6IMlGfXFcgs1aFSgfaASF_vUTqfxbKFsPRSx.PAXXd QtDPKeoUkZwsRaSpupokS2y8bLE56lgCkJzhh0R88ETy0i4eub_dD2Qdg9z1.Et3IGSjcpZkym3s OwdGGhRQWYi3M34AUm95QK.qR2m6n54bouftZejeqBsGBXk4mOBIH9NqVLqEktBWaDBDWrCPRU5R A254FKUbpjyTjb1VLzOgg3W6DjSwpOMRHym_8eWOjuCn.7CJyml_2v6spgvd5qbVlKCDFA9A.O78 ZmkA.JR7EI47XXoDjk2FyW3oTG2aYI0My.I0IXlSTHHuoIHOIIv0yyTqWbf7BBU9LEHf.qFKUeX5 yxZ3qO60Ew5XgZxyJXfubHGwCvAEjj3rkBrEhqvV1xJ6Q.XKJsCgzfwRzLm5XVXLxnm5EAR8qDjI QQYmI2lWZMTEut7Ff_RDf7DFAt_tOcxsDDYlT8ky.QVOu0zz9tBkFFH.tYY1h9VdlgbS6kRKCErV oFjbeZpELVL4tzMLhKyx3x9BZmVhl0ObApGE9kYnkrLk3YF_M62LlkRYv_cFwU64hBtpfKR9qp93 e0tJs72Ltx8g9mVklnav3EaIQAVI5hY42AuvAxKisD9MUX0jQjuxYHy0C388xlu_FfVTgWnYbAhJ rMKGxzzVYqYpZXiy6Kar4DQFAVTiC0pBFN0UHcIob2Fz6WWKsXIHsNV7ekKa7y9igiqzD1WvkV.W h8NmC5FPFCSamqukuN2ghd1nu42fFCeT0jTSXkC670zGSKCdNHPNQa03jdTVtWh08kYVbu0StNVn SOYopPaxpkUSa.jYkp3SQSv16zZJEO9VuEKxNOmF0eV08Q9.f54L_cm3D_XrrLdVqLFp1bcuD5Jo enEbeABhGl.Vq_wgPQQdJ6BoOp4jbAiYZCL1bHPHMrXXxhoFEq1z6NsdwQGkAyT8y4a0hOzKNsA1 l1Y.XnJCA15Db7Qbck6XR3TCJ5.tJB2mk3amgU3r23howVEvRFXoldqEg2H81Vr3oIMvtefGwCG2 RTAs2Jr8Z5m9lEVUKXnYX3IpHqSDyzsEvhdZf8O3AYyfpQu0G9tFHESgS.V0ohAybIwb9KvxctAx VwYUQ7d8.qwc3EM_FYGBsZkdCMLP0OrvLJHHCW99HRrW4jenTnN14gPIW_oj5WAmHXfi.w1Qh5z. jQv_SyT3QkKLa4WLR_zU5OMiq_ATuBW3XW3DbVIIJiKCLFs5XxRml6ACrTVNKnysvp9NwQMOrMTB LuKS_paBgYOkDSkpJQpk8oWSRYq6Yl6IQI.lrD9uSrv1YyxOs42n4rRmxSSYy711BUXNeVsYpkTT 3.SkikE72rYiiAjIJKh9lK5gNa2P8CSv_2twg3PPTeFcoGPItCOE9HEDyrlO7lphV6gp7n8vzGqz c8aWx2NaRIf24r.rISWTNqu5arI1ZDEDzXyCZcNQ_GOlOXmLsbrRNc1drkfVqmWnEseaEqdWlYU6 KXqX82h_cyX_lyilHSaiHnWm38cuQvEN_aSwNlnwjHKB2VZGqXM2uB.k81GMuQAEJ16bV7VRPV.I _WJjPK5qxeW_zkpSgj0YIX8EfeXh8jwF7RmJe2hhdbts2ElKZlcbw9V3BU5kc9w5nj3A1EKhLyKk n.Dg0QoV2Fpm5XeyF8hvYEDwHKaWql8ArqBzDEENJv3PhqZL_gdETo_n_ISm.yPHz7Aa0KytMznu Jm1inEnCc3hKyMRGXntT0aKaXCEq0Lgb.NRePGBD9e409u.NIc3NVGjsYf3A7FMp3nB545HY6elY BLkL55aE- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:40:01 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-z7rbd (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4ebb70e9ed0d575c44cc0f402177a3d5; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:37:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:00:29 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 20:37:46 +0800 Message-ID: <87bklofr6t.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 782 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: "61325@debbugs.gnu.org" <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas , Drew Adams , "rms@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > This is a different case. > "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in > "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly > used in the manual itself (as footnote explains). > > Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also > well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example. > > In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and > refers to the concept of sex. It refers to the existence of newsgroups centered around sex. An irrefutable fact, just like there are newsgroups centered around Emacs, text editors, torture, and the C Standard. On the other hand, there are no newsgroups centered around posting Internet memes. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 09:28:31 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 14:28:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51122 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU79b-0006ns-FW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:28:31 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:57847) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU79X-0006nc-CM for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:28:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1676903295; i=michael.albinus@gmx.de; bh=gfnI3gAF5Svzp0FKZ6LRgIXUnIjAyTheSOY+5h8ZUbU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=JTw4Pa/HHYsDA8safi+7SNkZ1/cBo+ih3ZD0ZoK4aMbZy4AlOwcYK8shTgJWk1WoO +6fwUt2+x+UOOn/Oih3YHpItCPEgF+VQJ6VH0Y48nnVt0ycX3VEGdxkPqbezOFoqF6 Wb6ztf+vkGzR0wyNNec/Nx62SN5Yd8ZCrvykFYRpkA2+HxXKgT0K9aK7xglnWo+H+s RZGOhTwEjWzKQ58QkaVNUvZP14cBn8aB3FcHK2Z72p0ukyxJRh4QoMN8AZQ2rVmpxH z7RiVkHAyR7d+diCol8N79kKko7M3V0Ndl9g2+gFvymPCbwcpKkBr8E11yVMZJZtb8 jE1ntL5XJoAsQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.39.22]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAwbp-1pNHVu1fAX-00BJsp; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:28:15 +0100 From: Michael Albinus To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:00:29 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:28:13 +0100 Message-ID: <87cz64fm2q.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NmKfYzaXN4ERKuao6H81EwuEO0d8PY+FFUR3GbrnbzqngFoJJqJ /asPIk8IvQLDhADrbLEXp0WBicnsru6SUPOHTxrtdV9DN6s8z6AgmhtczFBHS/Bv9mrA+uE hDEESzFUHOhoYlNKaWiLFD3ROppwbCHTrb0F8R23PAWFZo5RhAj3Yx0ssrKlYbrv/RkI9R0 DhcBKV9mBtVTbArb5voTQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:6TZ4npf0NAc=;oedBuWFEG7WkfhOAo9cAVnPl9hx 3BdV4f2otXqP2Vs4AFkWjXKwjoBIJeiadWbE445bzcC/VVj9HRfqVpNUvpCd2shAkX3nRtaQv jcY8mA/nbFJ7lOaxdi3Cz9jI9Bb8dQ0gGIIKbXrmjUgfjQOVZv6dGc6V7fMLKfy6hPtlUmNYH uDqFbssUQ4ZYAl3nnzyYBRjgFuq7DtDrkm/o6Jj3aIzJZKZqkcupUU9vM9rIBPhNrzwDWA6tj Qbso44XPPvkoz8YKI9uMwgUGbrBwlcWaXTgaSrPb3+cBeD+NS9WrLC5lFWD1fZ8HQwzL+kc2w 8uLI8hDgqttCKMx1XmD37kqrhaJg5z0DdHM2uHUFAHK2nLqzHdbUNRMMq3OvWdSGPzQN8j+fb c6epweEgjPwH9fnuWnz0YtnhKtdX9YgmOiUvdFQXbP6WU20cAEfFWfBHxf4uco1dnTdxt/tGY 69knfHnkcyyxFi71939LVqzIA2SQBAXDfIMWmOvsW2FB4+zYniBeO1cwx8j3PUYc5Tu9Wm4ut ScA/6UZImWBRpl8YHC7POHTqtUjAd70yPxWAlWa9led0VW2F9J7f3b7vkEVBwPC5dGr4akkp+ dzYvMIscrZRAOR2FdtV5e5fGiVPEgUL+CXP/WrR5teGo0aSFavxfHjf/EXUe+btfA+TieJ4kC JubVa4GBsywkb5OJcry21ALsWxOkw9aeabUv1F/1iw7T0LQy0cIC9yR40Jg3YmUMa4sj77jqP rAc6Vw1MhBS+4cMyOjZ8B45S+9aPSnA2eFf3ePCN+mlK4xfCJ3gHHGOzaDax3LTUSjlFO91MB lY6zDbGNjZudgie83WE9i1ZxZhvk4SwSH/i0sPti+12Bzt6Q6s7nZPmCtLGKD1t0ImN7n513y W0AXo8bul51uWat3FfEmT30rkhSGyC9uE2gxPPfb1avddcNNzZN0tTOM4G1JO5d9N2WbUkIqf g3lJxzeDerA0qX2XXMI2JcpcDzY= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: "luangruo@yahoo.com" , "61325@debbugs.gnu.org" <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas , Drew Adams , "rms@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: Hi Ihor, > Drew Adams writes: > >>> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only >>> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with >>> "meme", >> >> Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-) > > This is a different case. > "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in > "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly > used in the manual itself (as footnote explains). > > Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also > well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example. > > In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and > refers to the concept of sex. Could it be that you don't understand *any* joke? Like the one from Drew? Best regards, Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 09:34:02 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 14:34:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51130 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU7Ew-0006wX-8N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:34:02 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:36417) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pU7Es-0006w9-7P for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 09:34:00 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1BAA240104 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:33:50 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1676903632; bh=tEFcJSbfLUaxyYEDQta0pl4NdHLaehPS4o4kCOieQr4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=gLQ19wAvqRwv8FIDWcuO2cloOIpScFW+tzPcvtf933SHspUHpwcX/PPTp9D3zk2Cv /jj050GvK9bRfn8wVwtv/jGKv0DeDu4eIpnTGO9aYguvfC5GYpk5C4tHq5EZ169zu4 Gx5Nzcg9hXyC1Svk6dvPPppnaLnK5/JVaSYppFdw/zHAPdZzMFR3jGzBVfecJzMCU5 WO5vlcBMbVjtbNCPkeH4hNVm+FetagD5PJYiVe1LOZIk9znXWxx8I6OFEFXFzNi63y f8nx2KSrUQyqGt8xux4BHU8eNqk+yIM9cl3O3DbO+mcUu/CYbcfnNewBaRJpLsg1wG hbcDHFuHlPqew== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PL4ff5WBjz6tmF; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:33:46 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Michael Albinus Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87cz64fm2q.fsf@gmx.de> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> <87cz64fm2q.fsf@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 14:34:27 +0000 Message-ID: <873570e77w.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: "luangruo@yahoo.com" , "61325@debbugs.gnu.org" <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas , Drew Adams , "rms@gnu.org" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Albinus writes: > Could it be that you don't understand *any* joke? Like the one from Drew? I understood the joke in Drew's email. However, I see the topic of abbreviations as adding value to the discussion. Replying with something like ":D" would not add anything. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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Mon, 20 Feb 2023 17:01:39 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: RE: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Thread-Index: AQHZRSLd8K5DGvuexU2Z3s27ZHMhCq7YDubg Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 17:01:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> In-Reply-To: <87ilfweeci.fsf@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|DM6PR10MB4137:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6616ea04-33d3-47d5-9472-08db1364226e x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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It is also defined in > "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly > used in the manual itself (as footnote explains). >=20 > Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also > well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example. >=20 > In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and > refers to the concept of sex. It was meant as a joke. Which I guess supports the point that jokes aren't always seen or understood as such. And they aren't always appreciated as jokes, even if understood as such. Humor has a personal aspect. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 13:29:35 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2023 18:29:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53504 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUAus-0001jB-Te for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 13:29:35 -0500 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:37364) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUAuq-0001iz-H6 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 13:29:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20220101; t=1676917771; bh=jCwGvNpZZtKMxGKszLWaq41slVzPaA+i7mufz0YHjEA=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=gTa1eXgE4i5drlIltcvC9LEfl02zAaTCxmnhhzJht842k9GWPigLso65apyAADXG4 jJKIrLUfFhu5veIvzm7lxdyeTD7BTf2RknFYvFxd7uzADvTMmtDrqopSg3CuYX6Una Tq2VuDajxFtaIsNpvooKXkHPBPFNVHau1AkpuLpUsBajMrBSnFCFJareCVM5hp8+IV Fj3bW5Q6zzv4yobzD4uI5No4jvNmMMu1ai0zRnyA/5mSTKmimGOuw+Ghos0oeL/5Zc MSW7jDhP3hhvNy3o+Q3QmKUO0NLvJ/4dPhL//p2OnvC8bBSF/SFutFge3fA8nNMP9F 2Y7rqpDvxFZ7A== Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 18:29:30 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Ihor Radchenko , Stefan Kangas , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > One of the few standpoints unrelated to free software taken by the GNU > project is the opposition to censorship. No matter if the demands for > censorship come from individuals, or if they come from the > Communications Decency Act, they must be resolutely opposed. > That remark, in this thread about potentially offensive humor, is deliciously amusing, coming from someone who a few days ago publicly asked, in this same thread, to censor someone who happens to use a kind of humor he dislikes (a dark humor a la Louis C.K.) from this mailing list. FWIW, I've been the direct target of his humor, and never felt offended; on the contrary, I found it funny. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 20 21:32:35 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Feb 2023 02:32:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54056 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUISI-00063v-Nn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 21:32:35 -0500 Received: from sonic310-52.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.233]:43257) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUISG-00063j-Mz for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 20 Feb 2023 21:32:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676946746; bh=8naTuynpJ74P7tibpUVa+0wExEophT4EkQ4xDPJAPFk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=kZaext+fRJsVTrx4Q5SWQrOmvMPzPL+/lg1pqIuEC6tW5Z35m0bkGQAzlkOk/Z2XatqCZscF9QWtwQBP2B8iAGkxbTz6pKIHSVku6TGoTCyfSBUZWhNsapE9PLLH/EUDzuNDt4tLyS2hYAVoMDAM5QxIPtLXQ5K+AcGOEJ3CepFhHwIQvEhnPaHE8UPUkl3j0+nTkBAiIAyJtx5ecw/cOTB2xn07R5GjGJzJfEsS2ljLsjSLunTlk5Bk+kYJOWgI46HFlKU3tObjxxIVtTBDDZi6PxZc6GBbHD6/X+j90UEY87LYGGjNO9Ba3nGegrwKWZFkNMbUmjiJUbarZH+mhQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1676946746; bh=+uSrtCqcl1mkv1vP6WrgiWNqYgMYOahQUJK37e921Rz=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=piNkmzy50FFHEKAZjJokYgW+AMP6IOaSZ6YT6YXUzDWsdpU+nD4NJQSI3vf8GB/OJLYDQyfeGYKAcDV92Fl3B7knVSc2XZvUa+sjlCmcdJRI6T54UeSKiHKHGwRlYCPN4jLYHWWaxiGfLzk8ah0i22AEYe3nzrYmk95+ir3zxqKNl1GdwVMz68hFrbFZdeo/FJCCUTunswGHCnHU+x7PEl651jKacVKEKHEGegFuYwKj8kF92RUtIUyMET1kZCiO06Mi/m2gY25Zt3pGI2WSC67Ih9HAPjFNVBiwy8evWJ8YPnMxfcRquglGMBnMWZkEoI98jMBN+/Ny7kwcVmOO0g== X-YMail-OSG: gITXUL8VM1koUDqHTJb7cu1UEFo8qZbWCbDcI0kEiA8hAGq2LbFAmWNP3uo94qN yuwgeF0XyXTePuyARHxvVWlPHR4Ht5pp8OkQLIUFZXiG8CYLFNPDSbkoVrCrKh.4E5jxAJV6q_JI ilzSfMb2F8JbZd.wrnktef_n3Bu43tPZlnqCam00O.PI7W0zAmyW09ZZASiXiBq_MjdSJn7dShFz nxOx1tL_zADUrGsKleZs7RrU9LRAbCJREEosqi9nqPD8t0lburMn4elBaAIDOTlB419KuSHd9GzC Ak6pndJ_M0_Z93Flfhpc9EsW_ZtsMjF3Vu7G_yesbKMGMB1fMbONHT96vA9RUsdcUq62pJRQt.sO O_xWVvYMFqdwXeGZQEI.yCwaJlp.hihVRysI7hX5u5fq7ojP4eSxL9eslCxW.aWGmwf2sDaIB8UY dIo1w.ciTOygxPWEUvswacu_2RHdBN7cRObzTTvg6nQFgu2mr98cI3qqOy31SoXcyYqoYlR5wY05 RlofKMqUjdupNIlaVc1XqlsGLAKmURx9QUxMIjE8mCGN7o5zLcCS78RR.ruK_ktieOegpLC9zSS2 dNnsAmGpyNAbsNHGVUP6nK8a_bXtP9DfZMPdPHFxtjQc6GHxJKt4XHYsSjpzLB8b.GlIUattfSsi nzmVNim3Z5aiX3CXZd82wVdL.xER7yADuTTvrYNhrBNCl0lt3qHAptSZHrvxifwohbC1pApv_5y3 2gxjnPs_DxFsbWtmzKGXSaYkXG2fCSYx2U9mQAacwAx5IvOELZB.EE.NjstdgcV5dOXhZOMulTbO J1WjJJMi6TKDqiTRA01Yj8ytZYfRVAjLCFSOsWc6A40l326VIKrk2cCC6Y.HBGUltNt_dltcuYTK icsefyL4heLgR9CGWEPMVIbjFp.msIt.HWTWuV.i5ndfvOe3Dz2p6OdEW9k_kVebaNczkWc6R96Y c5YfrGdgFpS9O98wCZAZkpRpSG7VBOmBprMAQPjGAECULnZ5XvP0__Z2VK99rp1Ctct6s0hJAy.q .OOD5cajgmoOtg6vUOddIptLkqYAVGE_7_u1p3y6dPzGYjMCEvzf1TWc1SBcPKPiYTGVTHkd47cR Erbr54bsQEmBtnomoiLsuD.Rc8gN.qK.kj4FdBOeSHH8nRMF9R2YYth1ygSFychJCo_E4Jt_0kvC Q8XHqz2dmk74549H_iEQftEgkz4seN_tCvvOLUgVBawhx7sU9vEaQUPnavsXFRP6UFC.Oj0dHD5b T7sndVbXSV0Yv9pHohYB5rXYrjZELeOGQZ3wLzVsvkgsWWrqGbBk90hAcOYCB_74jQM5_hJ7nJPJ TmEomWRR4GzsMtXX3Zl.d4buEnWB1kmXqhqY3XdubIc07bbJcEFHMFVTdatI6w2NW9szQfSfKifd 2c5N4RkE6STCDBN6ccEt2VMg3iYMe3ppCEIrbcEId1OmcZAbTSRdOvWl6YIhXClSqotTxrgK55qx gT2oElfAGHSjNwU3.kS2jco_NDKIiKLhZDG7jq1ojq__49dzZquopL_3et2rx8.HBDcCZEiV3fIJ BMqkgT5gYkZH2CyFg81OVy4wC4vQoYH9dVOkdl4rpbccuT5rsLqIVTWZFA8.gUU5iHHIRWvJ_7OH WTopttwQIdf3D.lhaXpoKtjAHAOoIQhLQH1LUWy0cRlaAE2NJ_fpxFPxyL7cJLl8TxQZABzO6Z6m OpQx5J59sEDnHxF5hgV6NOTC6Vh4BDnlUXHal9rctmOKkn3zE9oBzi1.HtA0tsDJeR93kGAnVKZO XcIt4f00OGPbzOxYla6BlpLHC9U7rwDJ8.uQBMSnpAr3IgWWKrH4CMKmQgiAqYppe5RiheKRU.sT SJoSNcDeAL083siK9lykjBfBkWDL3cbVZMrPgSLf70SI.RkucGsWOo3nqqU0fpsNF8hhRp_qEI8j kkh53W07VdTPy5QvHY6YN.df7U6PYf9qtRzk4.NefB8wPHYeCbgj2tqAmBPXwYxtRru4MW3XrcCm HKDWcmJ6R12niTIwH5vVinRDB7pmt6AnwVnCAv.a9EZwo9gM34sRTPV9mL0h5yFnF8YRhaAxYubh 1OE2lYaDYbQ.RVfbetzvqYROge_Pa62KM9oyYObH.eVKM9Wt0q2ytF_orvY0etE5fnZdTuNdHwPg hc3I5AjLqs_Czc_Yu8iKkcIJW0NorNMILpbezltBXdWU121uwRZm2Sk_1iAecrqwq5iG6X0Ji6iN .a0ouMspF1E258_YagA2zef0YXwL7e4Q5GpZCDep11B.i6GefQ00ePCc1ZU7LjWY09K7Te2y6XJJ Z9uQlV5fA X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 02:32:26 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-28mz5 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 086990a5bb709945aee1fd955735e8a7; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 02:30:23 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Gregory Heytings Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Gregory Heytings's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2023 18:29:30 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 10:30:17 +0800 Message-ID: <87pma3eona.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 726 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Ihor Radchenko , Stefan Kangas , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Gregory Heytings writes: > That remark, in this thread about potentially offensive humor, is > deliciously amusing, coming from someone who a few days ago publicly > asked, in this same thread, to censor someone who happens to use a > kind of humor he dislikes (a dark humor a la Louis C.K.) from this > mailing list. > > FWIW, I've been the direct target of his humor, and never felt > offended; on the contrary, I found it funny. There is a difference between moderation, which applies to people and individual mailing lists, and not humor, and censorship imposed by the CDA and modern PC rhetoric. The individual you are talking about has also been restricted from posting to emacs-devel@gnu.org. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 21 23:33:13 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Feb 2023 04:33:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57696 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgoa-0000Dc-L2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:33:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46902) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgoV-0000DM-Re for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:33:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgoP-00059O-Rs; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:33:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=xTKKqIqaUCxX1t+dGa9PCQLTQLj1+R+4vBhNKRf+ccY=; b=g4mmBkVRHZa0 mma789OD8/cpmQfu4Fs7rpctkdJYlqWpvw0+aCI5fq5caOWNtWsDJCK0ae+PDPQ1l6FVhM1t2i031 MTPr30T1Y3Pf7h4wkNanIQpZyKkZPd8zUL01SXzBfbS+OHlaedWx8taa9Z6pNx5gVS5HBXRn3t52r AQROANy6mwTt2WcprjvHELMmRM59Jw07aJqBf7xomv4PQV8yjGaU4OUcNNGbG9OUnCDrPCf+3tftm 6J95lTrQEqbiF19hIIkOl0bJn8eogzDEVPsvnB2jJYujSgsobdZ3nBrhsvS0YHs3Euem9t0YBOgJh pnFWc9EB1h6gPxRQo8hpaA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgoP-0006DY-Ir; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:33:01 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87ilfyjleb.fsf@yahoo.com> (message from Po Lu on Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:04:44 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> <87ilfyjleb.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:33:01 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, bugs@gnu.support X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > That seems like a useful feature. But the GNUS manual has to explain it. > And, it does... > 8.13 Kill Files > =============== > Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill file > entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel > Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there. That section gives full documentation of the kill file feature, but the text with the joke doesn't say anything about it. So that section still has the problem I complained about, of using a term that has not been explained. That section ought to have a sentence saying what kill files do, with an xref to the Kill Files node. Can someone please write that small fix? > 8.4 Score File Format > ===================== > A score file is an ‘emacs-lisp’ file that normally contains just a > single form. Casual users are not expected to edit these files; > everything can be changed from the summary buffer. The most important documentation for score files is how to use the score feature. Does the GNUS manual have that? If it already has good documentation of using that feature, there is no need to write it over again. But the section with the joke needs to have a sentence or two saying what scores and score files do, plus a cross reference to the explanation of how to use them. Can someone please write that small fix? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 21 23:34:49 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Feb 2023 04:34:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57701 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgq9-0000G5-6u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:34:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46058) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgq6-0000Fq-Nt for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:34:47 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgq1-0007WO-7z; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:34:41 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=TlyOqde8VNAV+YTaqI5kQZDFQKS1fLSfAoZ3231eiHo=; b=Em1/HUlLcw4t K+n+z/hfP89L88zChn8N+ACOxjFpfOtBfhr2l+JmiGTL0Tpo6y3pOVJmtD3CRcBvqL4lccTazDuEq +WKf1+5vBNGqsqsJLex2hLeGgOPOIjfxhZNDOM3frdYI+ueZ3g63R1KzXE3bYKNiFtDjEUPimCHen Y1wG9QQug25ep0GanBqQapyyxLiLvq/x5NTdb4aVLtdqBGsPXF4UMVCn/RmDVVb3zMct4GaxZVEpe 5mG0IWYerBDdpRnoYXje3yhyw/ycQwdFF+m55NnCDmBwreSksAQ7a1FS/CoMt1XizujIB+4qjUhM0 KVGmzDOs1izBU1T5WBTDQg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgpn-0000mM-Hr; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:34:27 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: (message from Gregory Heytings on Mon, 20 Feb 2023 18:29:30 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:34:27 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, stefankangas@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > That remark, in this thread about potentially offensive humor, is > deliciously amusing, coming from someone who a few days ago publicly > asked, in this same thread, to censor someone who happens to use a kind of > humor he dislikes (a dark humor a la Louis C.K.) from this mailing list. There is so much vagueness there that I can't tell who you mean or what your point is. What I can tell is that your point is an attack on some person, written cryptically. If you disagree with someone in this discussion, please don't turn it into a personal attack. Please stick to the topic we are talking about -- don't change the topic to focus on anyone in this discussion. This particular kind of point is generally not very useful. If two statements by one person strike you as being somehow opposed to each other, that doesn't imply they conflict. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. It could be that the two statements were stated imprecisely so that they can be misunderstood as conflicting. Thus, claiming that the two statements conflict is not helpful for resolving the issue at hand. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 21 23:35:48 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Feb 2023 04:35:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57707 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgr5-0000I6-Nw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:35:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35016) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgr4-0000Ht-C9 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:35:46 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgqz-0007tf-3Z; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:35:41 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=xjPnYOQs2ysObecLHh4QR5HA/Bq/XKKXbFoMiUW6c/w=; b=hS/WLbaVURex TqIjJdFZGAfIQ9JYrGSWQlQY99r6CEFPfNhSp99zudOZR4o7aPpPQf76LOqmNAk8BIyWfaf3XZjtF kCFOs7TE6CvtiKRTdW3RRSkp8YhR40ghR8Wr7C2IsZU+NpWyO1VuZ8ANG7Ahh6uUAbGbmlw9FWujI dY+CVvsAIJI91jXYPlmb9UWRxoz5W4oEmWrxxu0Mk/4ydTMp6mNnMJTCIp4M2GnXb27MXBOPsjIxd qpt0ujIEK/xhaGv1Jm8MSlSd3qhIe4EDESeyNb4HE3QPuFV7oLnMMavmtlsu/9TXYDiOGBGY7Ytnm 5M6gjMmCNEE7q3RRZIadkQ==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pUgqq-0000zZ-29; Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:35:32 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: (message from Gregory Heytings on Mon, 20 Feb 2023 18:29:30 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:35:32 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, stefankangas@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I think that when I wrote the Kind Communication Guidelines, I was thinking about discussions (like this one). It asks people to try to avoid offending anyone else in the discussion. That is a limited set of people to be considerate of. When the same points are applied to a book, which is published, there is a problem: anyone might read the book. So it can be interpreted as saying that the author should make sure not to offend anyone whosoever. That implies that every demand for censorship should be catered to. That is not a good outcome, and not what I intended. It looks like I will have to think more about this. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 22 01:04:53 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Feb 2023 06:04:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57850 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUiFJ-0002mI-5r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 01:04:53 -0500 Received: from sonic313-37.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.60]:35024) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUiFD-0002m0-KY for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 01:04:51 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1677045881; bh=zXmTtCC9LrBORO8tMzfQ7KfCcthoNH79DHbA2a30zn4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=RIKN39np5TlzeeNnIS9fzgkfEdqqbfCegptylIYJTjpS7rxn/htWoEaC/RrDLUcxYAZH50Xtrsn50jNkStbzUWUf+FVX26e7esBja22nT9vN9L/jqpGBf3kyb7dXQ58we3zdVKO4pc8eJly5s00EjNe77tX0D/G9fwBI9G+edJ+oZUU6WagsYL9dwO8+/BxBRhvhZp7AziHkGXBx2+pZKqeldRtzIPqoiEZeJ7cy2vSpZZ7zp2mFSq5QOHmTriatnVFDG5kiNirwtYs7GZ4eERyLKEI7vmInznAjsasN3tQ+SHB0EJt+wQVCXUKgvXSA/HKw0HQpLyieq+NVIMYBHQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1677045881; bh=b/axfe6xBrRtkAYLogzUkNh4tWlu4B3dFaEOuCHPPjo=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=RkoTAPa8RjZ0dzxkXxmEHW7vJTKvENI/VFk12bjnY/Qjp7LaQ6A0+MfUGtBgbE2rT4wXy7yF7f5wXN4TcgoqHiIMjOL1OrUSvq1JQqAdjLHUEQIQ6sKPcNgXbsgZc/ID2HGrQyqLnYDSEA1kdTng+AWZFBq2ECbbYuNr/bEUz5mMmKaAHDZMu2yqTuEWTTEPc5zUT4tgGqZBPY9dzv4o23XFQPWBhazOsl8aVPTUJ8h879pMnKehb4bHF8xh7cgj0gXr2bBFZSaxZm3HZvUJHhtlEdjXJDurA5HPnpxVnGx9mT9l9p0uXJrsUy3uMnC0BwSiAEBm+zfvUMzs/H3bgg== X-YMail-OSG: IeNS6ZIVM1msmmgR97JmiYN_WdAsTXijV.2HMRgcpF5TeW_d6vcWMQb4jM6J9_u phJyRugMjRfvvbBOW4A5835at_r9zlybFB0jQ5qOWhhkGUX839rIEo2qiyyHoiYodnrCRclwP8YY 3rsnyljIjQJODxEwOQSum5iJY3guxrUTOqX37WnTDFw4tiG3kziWAMagJIpDZvVbzXBNxkEQ.xFx QIMjEBiZufxilZJUavnipbvocRz.iKhnZ92UDxA5orM56MOJYBgsb745ISyDQZracnboyqdAMb1q _5OW8dFuCuppfzjlz8u_3_LnBEOby.zkZOOCW2rbp45J3w6MH2Q5N9fHjGhY3HzO68L4bvYrFo54 1eOeqTbwb_UMgMJTPeuwz5KdopzEPG9Vk86Yz44MIKNrLpzj45U6xZO3ezj_ekx9aVDfLBZO7RiE Lr2QP3D8WpVonsuOj2FWNmWTnNzTwwqasMriCaimi8fDJBb2N6FqR8DOen6731F3_Hn0EJRFBdKG ndacC4n49hTmt3GfnqDjdObELttx8tYi1QliJEycjmaAGKdpyf6qxR2O2sbePKeYmrUGVHCRFfqZ rb6DpWPOWNwgWEjjfc23C.zD3V7eLRM2f0yr.tOQvjb4hsclUxlQ.jy70xFpZCRVM1JhCHzT7R7z HrIAY4ZVzgodIgJYMBO6nGzmUmAGbYzW1tNxVR4v.cUo05wXAnrhmTdljSQhGyfwQB5FhVxGnC7N 4HpLjq_AFR_Oxppc7Yywq2UHdA5OxIS6li69HD.MoQGNee0iqyjqxTPr7p2WpCLfD7NXZjWywISD TnzCN6KDAQ6.zP_HpeRAZcy0_0O2YMFISZCGldhwqOZsPZSWrKASeXdzjMRWQNznMEreEKEhjfHZ bPNq7QT_4ETuBCQnbtPisnRMNZy0k9GxmKsdMuFvSFrfDW41Bj4NhFLZkOKXr_8Gy6jl1MXnckrC XvtVckduFeDeQIJXV7RwzbsP14FTgWt02lcu5lx7ClUcAF5BJCKPTfPwSn0gpR2Rwudt7haxCaZD g3QThr7bj3uOopBRykCDLoxu6MKPn10ri_YZLRL7QbX5d5swnwRPBvh.mGSMnY00KsmqvW46kAhP uNprEXJmswJYsepvn4vhkSnni_gytcrMnqWYte9KRyDi4ui3ZMFvUCMYhVCuBsQZbphF7.WFwfsg I9lLpbZPeFqHEdj9_oX1dmNKxIwFknngypmUwPNY3NhFUEziIdMlyIpUEAFpWwmljhXgLfQEP9gs ZtUN.CC06Y79CVgospSncixwt72NPPgNQmwY9NRoRrgmwsEPN1TK07VtiOP_HhVoJxNfkhb1Y9kU mPG2V9T6dNC2pi4J4VhZvLx1Ccp7S7UI7jxucw6_wQ9cXT25yyXBQ0kbfUN_.CgAzPt1V6BfhZPi Y5johnlTCUp3w0Bj3Uwrh7YbVdqF4r354jQMC00Is.2RPo9AA9pfeLGZjIns0F6.DvBOWPIgTX9o W61xxVlxaBTb.0WawOu4NexZq4hY3J4aV2ooz34kfI6IS_Zkof8bCvpz9O_wi1Ysq2SvZQKAl3Is SoHHzm_1n2yir5jHQ1ywe2_iriqCZaH4jTi2fFqIFjzO0UzFRGLXZXoyXH.xLcS12qyk7GUyMzmM PX4RkCFZtSgG51QFxVCFr_NobEaG2z_0tWcl8IfKBz0TwIMb5Q6AoWcMdMdfdxqYQ9HYDvtuLUPb FLCp9Rdgkyp6iSOeMETITOUjQCFrGzAktyfOQ3PD76IbwHqfM6xsvZQL9.D4zS1nkCGR1lDIRlST oK5V9jYxFHybLZdVZOXASmnI034eCaXWnz5IWM.jHjAg_d6E5BZQANuOHQn2txbmrFBCPSfhMvCi DFAgcP5wRJU23hUURxVuiS.JrM9YWBO0SxZAj11.2ptoITljw2ENVJTI_ZeoReDRcxVHdSfzaZh7 f1tZMrfSZM_SWx5riH39.Tzi0CtTdqSXv02mgBzvBSZvbIeHXk13rUvtmZGkiku.iE3TkvSHuc.m cu9dUeoDAvm9V9Coy5E68HESxt6QPxFFpaB2Nwv.WIoPBU88IxHA_eP3t7JwYR4wohyI0ms4gk89 Su8haxivsTKOPTYHKmVaOPpVMh4tmorXBwhQFcn0tSdF_4KksaT_4806ndE6RdJtc7dBU_o6tBMT U6Rz2g5WyDrZSVxGxWcLaGsWex2.KttR9kRh6y5pqtau.79_UpSNUuD2ECeCV97qnnwMgD1f6vU. _Gp6rxQZhLDD2QJ2QI_Lc.B9HaVr1ff7lGAENiJua0g9Y_llipn9q.5qDIMyvgPDAuy1wRk6qjG2 Gqnd8WAcM45k- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 06:04:41 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-9fc5746c8-pz6sb (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID bdf7272f0dc1ae45169e3c0ed9485f73; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 06:02:38 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2023 23:33:01 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> <87ilfyjleb.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 14:02:31 +0800 Message-ID: <87y1oqb5l4.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21183 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 2739 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, bugs@gnu.support X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > That seems like a useful feature. But the GNUS manual has to expla= in it. > > > And, it does... > > > 8.13 Kill Files > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files. In fact, the kill fi= le > > entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel > > Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I=E2=80=99ve left the code i= n there. > > That section gives full documentation of the kill file feature, > but the text with the joke doesn't say anything about it. > So that section still has the problem I complained about, > of using a term that has not been explained. > > That section ought to have a sentence saying what kill files do, > with an xref to the Kill Files node. > > Can someone please write that small fix? > > > 8.4 Score File Format > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > A score file is an =E2=80=98emacs-lisp=E2=80=99 file that normally co= ntains just a > > single form. Casual users are not expected to edit these files; > > everything can be changed from the summary buffer. > > The most important documentation for score files > is how to use the score feature. Does the GNUS manual > have that? > > If it already has good documentation of using that feature, there is > no need to write it over again. But the section with the joke needs > to have a sentence or two saying what scores and score files do, > plus a cross reference to the explanation of how to use them. > > Can someone please write that small fix? Here. The node with the joke is where score files are explained, and there is documentation on how they are used. diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi index 486171a080a..677a552d135 100644 --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi @@ -19808,10 +19808,10 @@ Scoring @chapter Scoring @cindex scoring =20 -Other people use @dfn{kill files}, but we here at Gnus Towers like -scoring better than killing, so we'd rather switch than fight. They do -something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay -attention! +Other people use kill files (@pxref{Kill Files}), but we here at Gnus +Towers like scoring better than killing, so we'd rather switch than +fight. They do something completely different as well, so sit up +straight and pay attention! =20 @vindex gnus-summary-mark-below All articles have a default score (@code{gnus-summary-default-score}), From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 22 08:43:36 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Feb 2023 13:43:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58340 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUpPE-0002t9-BX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 08:43:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33370) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pUpPB-0002sv-RU for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 08:43:34 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pUpP5-0000Ii-Q2; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 08:43:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=pv3deUoOyZZiTM+OrzIr/fxatLVU9AHEXIAPqA7hrRk=; b=L4+PbUSeHRCY ezOYdK/l3yvLiARgxVx6SLiy+LMndJ/Pw2omA5QJo6gK+1R6jBUyFojISieOOaDDJ5boXuuA0jCSV BWt85AyZ5EKApSo/hS9ykn+NgjjctB2Jz9XSZJPKmw1OflvwF4d78O2qV/GD7B3HPN5pFaPphDgWF xoa+kKNvVqOLVE2leIoukfJcbkKkcZpczXFMpkkJMCxjM3AhDoP9Vokdp8meN1OD7wkPOuvgL7/Fb Uhb7Q7hIbyGx5VAIE8eRCjAplyWUO9qcPugZgJu1wAj+58fRb7acHLdBOaGrFlqAhiQPuX49T9TTJ TAQAjEuS1QVQGi3tL3ILKA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pUpOz-0004ds-JD; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 08:43:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 15:43:35 +0200 Message-Id: <835ybtstmg.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:47 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> <874jrjkyyc.fsf@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:47 -0500 > > > The technical information is that unlike the concept of > > "killing" [*] that may be familiar to Usenet software users, Gnus > > introduces the idea of "scoring" [**]. Scoring is a more powerful (and > > also faster [***] compared to killing. Gnus recommends using scoring > > over killing. > > > [*] "killing" in Gnus is, AFAIU, hiding (not deleting) threads that > > match some criteria. > > [**] First mentioned in 3.7 Group Score, but actually more general (does > > not only apply to Groups). Score is a number assigned to Gnus > > threads according to a number of criteria - each criteria (like > > matching some words in subject/body) will increase/decrease the > > total score. Gnus can then sort threads according to their score and > > even hide threads with score below certain threshold. > > > [***] 8.13 Kill Files > > In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a > > lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite > > your kill files into score files. > > Can you rewrite the actual paragraph to include all that information? Done. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 24 23:09:40 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Feb 2023 04:09:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38751 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pVlsR-0003YC-N2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Feb 2023 23:09:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56822) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pVlsQ-0003Xu-7A for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Feb 2023 23:09:38 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pVlsJ-0003fa-BF; Fri, 24 Feb 2023 23:09:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=m1s44aSi6LdrvqldMByMJuqmkXOlva+F/xLmbXyDs50=; b=PWSVVkVKZg61 63dYRMdPeIj4K4wpQGvR9VaKe6Dn3PE5lk68ViEZfi8XUcDCaxo1VID175C+rO0aAFMEEqiKfcxHC 00Ql44OLeMOJATrLlVJ29I8jz9x0NSCj9oX90LWmOQB1Lz2efR32vmb6886oEUfOsVqgdI+rzFhba xJ9F+EKPBUPpSeCRj+xShbpQs81aTKMF0/cZxkJXe5hooetVN0oZFDzXxo1fbtluuqfDXWMenVzGo YfzD5C1PiOZXk2fJ/b7Np9fiQ9RzOnaSTsEv8Fa/y/GAI9yWI0K8IMHouk/oJfa7GJz7yrFEnWe7J lv2ZlTk0PYbIKrRj9zBH8w==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pVlsI-00032i-2C; Fri, 24 Feb 2023 23:09:30 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <835ybtstmg.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Wed, 22 Feb 2023 15:43:35 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn1afay.fsf@localhost> <87r0v17iul.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9peijp.fsf@localhost> <87mt5p7etx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wn4tedtx.fsf@localhost> <87a61p7bpu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r0v1e9kg.fsf@localhost> <871qn16j3i.fsf@yahoo.com> <871qn0e67a.fsf@localhost> <87h6vw5qpw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1p8cqqs.fsf@localhost> <87cz6k5njc.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8k33rnb.fsf@localhost> <874jrjkyyc.fsf@localhost> <835ybtstmg.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 23:09:30 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > Can you rewrite the actual paragraph to include all that information? > Done. Thanks. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 25 21:59:53 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Feb 2023 02:59:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42036 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pW7GS-0002PW-LL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2023 21:59:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48342) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pW7GR-0002PH-36 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Feb 2023 21:59:51 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pW7GL-0008Lp-9n; Sat, 25 Feb 2023 21:59:45 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=RPvjUxx4l4AdwZbl/6hEnu+mtIziMksu4iIxFqJkSrU=; b=LXe1ugLcV+WF 510JZ5Gm+NtR877SDoJstyJnNUGBtxfuTURCJ/9OJrJVfun5Nj8yDG4jcXiWNmhy7AZs5Zc7sfqa7 IQzJLvuATXxTuKRxwyCr2DGMPgR4L59/VuFUtAWNpJLWzo0oFoCyGhvE3SU/+Afk0aSSIxkRGDf+s OFLcD7eHkE6KxKCkYFhK7mEbKSx/zR4QBX/xI1AakOmoJ9flqYmr2G5aZEBxsS5kldSQwdElE/ldT hWLss1yV9gbkY01LPt8C9T54NDNYoETtu/iEjEIEhyNQOzSylTp590XPWbQvQXjLNpDmYuFVhk5sr p+dGi78EE5QGDBVw3UOjBA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pW7GL-0007yZ-2J; Sat, 25 Feb 2023 21:59:45 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87y1oqb5l4.fsf@yahoo.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sffg69yj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zg9f3rz4.fsf@localhost> <87ilfyjleb.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1oqb5l4.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 21:59:45 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, bugs@gnu.support, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > +Other people use kill files (@pxref{Kill Files}), but we here at Gnus > +Towers like scoring better than killing, so we'd rather switch than > +fight. They do something completely different as well, so sit up > +straight and pay attention! That fixes the immediate problem. Thanks. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 26 22:26:42 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Feb 2023 03:26:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45560 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pWU9y-00025G-Di for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2023 22:26:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:38754) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pWU9w-000250-Mq for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Feb 2023 22:26:41 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pWU9r-00014w-8g; Sun, 26 Feb 2023 22:26:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=r2L7E6S5yUUXPIcnfOKeinEgPkO9+U3VTcpgn4jT4Us=; b=hoBgc/HsX7Hu HSx+6j/9N8udadNbj3TfjsSMN65bcI0WtucA/8vlBqjHZDyA6/GSTMFg+GdeLBpbD7AIpny1KG5qL yUaQWjRpCvsPgR6KvOb5K6Y1MvvmLGwkV9U6VdHEt9nPbwsIfYWIqSGC9iMRdhYdnTCjI3gt9Qowr juIAKUdSIkZnjEJAO72TQViAiwQYPJXiXjgyZn0ETgl9Y0KUFcAeFSJNVD6StUIx/YRBPyqp0uBGm /kCd45ytjrddxCnsIr3GPapKeJbbK1isHtJWHBMA59Zop6mN46Y3bBNhoGi5lzqDozy92i9x+LfS9 XBVKW7/lru46LgLEbVQBYg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pWU9q-0003Bt-Qx; Sun, 26 Feb 2023 22:26:34 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:36:01 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 22:26:34 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > What about the second one? > If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas, > please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express > the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more > likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary > things. This clearly pertains to a discussion between people about what to do, with some trying to convince others of which solution to adopt. It doesn't make sense for a manual. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 07 08:28:13 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2023 13:28:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44809 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZXMT-0003MJ-AZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 08:28:13 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:51767) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZXMQ-0003M5-LY for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 08:28:11 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB69824049A for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:28:03 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1678195684; bh=oAIresYsHexfgXuvd6/S+8aRCIbH6ohobSeIqq2tp/Y=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=icIDuC663lpv6locOrYx8FR57MW8BkJwUmguRPNBNxHQqJ86iFx2MkPrHoF6kqD2j VBAb7wmchNoDdFbNsMapFKr43SIAf38mjppVR/RziLTO4V4Xfi94iUtziR9CQw2oEE rQF/osvlgnEiY8mnbAW1Hy6aQexF4KhyaiSEByjY2idRWE1vBVK8o+Q/IBbv0xVmVJ LR5M3Wqngu2E13flyXT53k8f2vqJksdKeMwqspHhodIGRuX9zxR7R4emy6LXfGljO0 XzYxWybhcq3TFQXPV/i0aYliuQ+m0qwvzqy7PxFZS/vG61PgFRkPTwj8sWBT/sD9Bg JLIssAR4nNcAg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PWGTr5GNFz6tm4; Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:28:00 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87fsb0frbi.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87fsb1j4v8.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7poeesv.fsf@localhost> <87fsb0frbi.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 13:29:31 +0000 Message-ID: <87fsagg05g.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > People who are easily offended will have no use for a newsreader. > Unless, of course, they get their internet service from Time > Warner Cable. I don't think so. You are probably right about surfing Usenet and Newsgroups. But merely using a newsreader does not imply that the users are going to be exposed to all the groups. They get to choose which groups to follow. Using Gnus or learning how to use Gnus should not require _as much_ resilience to offence compared to reading anonymous imageboards and equivalent newsgroups. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 07 08:47:08 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2023 13:47:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44842 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZXel-0003qP-MI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 08:47:08 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:42919) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZXej-0003px-GM for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 08:47:06 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A79972404E5 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:46:57 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1678196819; bh=DpTYO1JQEZfks1cWVqWAi+mnABl8MSUcatjWgsGvI9w=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=GkTuR+cWGeUx+1QOK6J1J6P1gr6BnSdyTSI7oooM43OF0krZSUWrKhQ6bf+klxI6D fyM9Rs7Q3IZhr/gbolNfLQ0UleuCWzxl7DCWyOMGl/aRk5vBzPce489tOvGHO/7s7N JYfrYdk0etH8AJ3Vt/LFilIAgsXuVhVWocA/LLj3/PTvc3pNFhKrt6UDg6GbRu38We +UbTsgA7ipiSQOO9nTPCsuV4fkm87ursMuXBtNNVYcLypKGepuGB/hwXz40exhD4cc JvdprNhfa6FNFEg2zRPFbS9K5cm+ocaaj742HMSBC63ZHF0f1DkH7iDwCQ6Ldfrv3o Mbvb+QBk+bljg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PWGvh3h44z6tpW; Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:46:56 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 13:48:17 +0000 Message-ID: <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, Gregory Heytings , stefankangas@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman writes: > I think that when I wrote the Kind Communication Guidelines, I was > thinking about discussions (like this one). It asks people to try to > avoid offending anyone else in the discussion. That is a limited set > of people to be considerate of. Good point. I agree that it is meaningless if we aim to cater every possible potential reader of the manual. > When the same points are applied to a book, which is published, there > is a problem: anyone might read the book. So it can be interpreted as > saying that the author should make sure not to offend anyone > whosoever. That implies that every demand for censorship should be > catered to. > > That is not a good outcome, and not what I intended. > > It looks like I will have to think more about this. I am re-reading the GNU-provided information for maintainers on jokes (https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor) and I note the following paragraph: There are people who frown on anything that is slightly risqu=C3=A9 or controversial, including jokes. It would be a terrible shame for that attitude to prevail, so our policy is that the occasional risqu=C3=A9 joke is ok. GNU is a 21st century project, not a 19th. AFAIU, this implies that even occasional jokes about controversial or culturally-sensitive topics, like sex should be OK to have. The problem with Gnus manual though is that the number of jokes in it is huge. And it appears that jokes involving sensitive topics are not occasional. So far, the discussion on this thread revolved around all-or-nothing approach with people often treating this bug report as either a demand to remove all the jokes or a demand to remove all the sensitive jokes. Originally, I was aiming to handle only the jokes I listed with an idea in mind to apply the same approach for all other sensitive jokes. >From my current understanding of the "14 Humor and GNU" section, it will be incorrect to try removing every single "risky" joke. Though I do not see why replacing the risky topics with more neutral would hurt, given that the quality of a joke being changed does not degrade. What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are considered occasional? I think that it is something worth clarifying in https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 07 15:03:10 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2023 20:03:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47247 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZdWf-0008M4-Ts for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:03:10 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f44.google.com ([209.85.219.44]:44647) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZdWe-0008Lr-1t for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:03:08 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f44.google.com with SMTP id op8so9701232qvb.11 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 12:03:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678219382; h=mime-version:message-id:date:in-reply-to:subject:to:from:user-agent :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=SxM3uLGwCvQcQymdBg8p4DWy/YszCjMeGH/H2QWT/fQ=; b=Lu3UAiWM+UsiyjaeAX5E3AN2BF40iTVWl37MibfoW80II+sLtCCemFCiO/ojrj+maC CRSDmKb3sgaliudG8ho6oVyhzUHu3eJzRShkZkxVdayOBtwh4xv7xMnsa0cTkXMX8ikr 3ravUyoOyNNWQIGwfMOgG/sI01xx2ScGgMFNTVwzcM9/tXjdPidJdE4VEJ/kZmxEdxhZ esVVk4OELZZdda22Iu4mqm9oi7lRlCOve1r1khNNdB6A0TC/NyqILGV48mLhyWIbmpU9 LCAHxUIZ0nwosVDzgf94W/Jdmlwf1EVFEP9suGdfiFqBb+8Vniv3K4g1lfiWwYhPQve7 Sssw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678219382; h=mime-version:message-id:date:in-reply-to:subject:to:from:user-agent :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=SxM3uLGwCvQcQymdBg8p4DWy/YszCjMeGH/H2QWT/fQ=; b=FMnkx0JNEo6v4x1C6YyXSb7eajnvnMWdQM74LScg5xU7fmXIs6Bsk0qjDWtKH3vKO7 ZDMT5gxK9WWtqSei6irVanYrE7xtFAbmhwWqKgUjzvEvJQyyubT5HBgXG/5QQ1Zx5aV5 dmA5KiG62A+od0VxmI0+AKyaXPIXmoBCoYosqRTbE7oSQbhFkXk5u7jen0Pz7dTWO7zO p//yL/xQTTErASIs4xffvLMTgJg7xH5k7PGmziDQUBYRHlbCM3+WU95ZNK8klN7NafB1 qKWWxDrVqA8XnR/NUuQZE3rNn9GSsjm+MOPkN78vCOH7Ff3gLsbQCTsnESQcrgM560a5 hXlg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUWFgcLh7ofNFpIBpIim3EKiiq+mX2YemAdg9DsLTlriCsdNCcg VH9KOOTaskcVxz8uQ/mv2Tfu/WZ3LOo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+KRx4H420THxo0xq/HSi1CXhxkDP7F2UCAtgXG/YHkydMIsfn5bIuF4lamJt9JGYH88OIOxA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:40f:b0:56e:a07b:f4df with SMTP id z15-20020a056214040f00b0056ea07bf4dfmr513230qvx.13.1678219382165; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 12:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nbook ([2601:84:847f:c697:8a6b:6703:a961:212b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u19-20020a05620a121300b007424376ca4bsm9987378qkj.18.2023.03.07.12.03.01 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 07 Mar 2023 12:03:01 -0800 (PST) User-agent: mu4e 1.9.21; emacs 30.0.50 From: No Wayman To: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87fsagg05g.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:02:05 -0500 Message-ID: <87a60otji3.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I feel like this discussion is easily solved by a technical means. What we need is an embedded document mark-up language in order for documentation authors to formally indicate where they are joking. We then define an alist of "harm categories" which users can register themselves with. Before documentation is printed, the "harmfulness coefficient" is determined for a particular user. If it is above their "harmfulness threshold", we display a less offensive joke (defined in a separate, localized user option). See the attached library, joke.el, which solves 99% of the problem. An example usage: #+begin_src emacs-lisp (defconst joke-test-text "A closure is a function that also carries a record of the lexical environment that existed when the function was defined. When it is invoked, any lexical variable references within its definition use the retained lexical environment. In all other respects, closures behave much like ordinary functions; in particular, they can be called in the same way as ordinary functions. Speaking of which: Why did the chicken go to Hell? It wasn't braised right.") (cl-loop for (subject . categories) in '((timmy . (agoraphobic child)) (rachel . (religious vegan))) collect (cons subject (apply #'joke-harm-by-category joke-test-text categories))) ;;((timmy (agoraphobic . 0.0) ;; (child . 12.043010752688172)) ;; (rachel (religious . 12.043010752688172) ;; (vegan . 12.043010752688172))) #+end_src Here we can see 12.04% of the above documentation will offend an agoraphobic child, such as Timmy. However, it will be doubly offensive to a religious vegan, such as Rachel. If I don't hear any convincing objections within the next couple of hours, I'll merge to emacs-29 branch. Thanks. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=joke.el Content-Description: joke ;;; Joke --- Not a joke. ;; -*- lexical-binding: t; -*- ;;; Commentary: ;; yes. ;;; Code: (require 'cl-lib) (defconst joke-harm-categories '((("chicken" "cow" "meat") . vegetarian) ((vegetarian "cheese" "milk" "fish") . vegan) (("god" "sex" "heaven" "hell") . religious) ((religious "religion") . atheist) (("marketplace") . agoraphobic) ((".*") . child)) "Lists of categories of people will be offended by jokes on certain topics.") (defun joke-victims (joke) "Return victims of JOKE." (cl-loop for (spec . victim) in joke-harm-categories for regexps = (flatten-tree (cl-loop for el in spec collect (if (symbolp el) (car (rassoc el joke-harm-categories)) el))) when (cl-some (lambda (regexp) (string-match-p regexp joke)) regexps) collect victim)) (defun joke-jokes (text) "Return list of jokes in TEXT." (let ((jokes)) (with-temp-buffer (insert text) (goto-char (point-min)) (while (re-search-forward "\\(?:\\([^z-a]*?\\)\\)" nil 'noerror) (push (match-string 1) jokes)) (nreverse jokes)))) (defun joke-harm-by-category (text &rest victims) "Return percentage of JOKES in TEXT which will harm VICTIMS." (cl-loop with jokes = (joke-jokes text) for victim in (or victims '(anyone)) for harmful = (cl-remove-if-not (lambda (joke) (member victim (joke-victims joke))) jokes) collect (cons victim (* 100 (/ (cl-reduce #'+ harmful :key #'length) (float (length text))))))) (provide 'joke) ;;; joke.el ends here --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 07 15:12:31 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2023 20:12:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47253 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZdfj-00007Z-4n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:12:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40134) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZdfh-00007L-KZ for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:12:30 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pZdfb-0007iy-Fv; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:12:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=t81tQfYC0mlUudWaNVQ4vHDzQ305YGyeFuj0Ul35Abk=; b=ToGKnS/n811J 3BxAo7EgD4ZHcKwMDi3efgNYHHNIXbMZPT5+riOaMnazkQI6C/yq7N8MDEERHqR8HCU3m4J4lGE4O LvDfeSxbwiXRbMim/r4rQF7vFTRHz/B++kjjBozBGqVL3eraJ/PqQcjt5vrEtar/DYABSxJRFP03F qYGiFdXc64vLp5mY69pic41bLF47ZuHOBYIXO4LOtjl9ctigzjyoE7oYbttdq0fGOMEsrImvsj5uR KKQeVMpMNR49f7nnIGVkeXsgkHAVheLN9oXNtMkkC0HCwASoyuHdp5yN4h9ouKCFcCDeSi/QyrNwZ PWj5XJrO4zeGPCXbQsebnA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pZdfZ-0006rA-Ia; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:12:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 22:12:19 +0200 Message-Id: <837cvs5nj0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: No Wayman In-Reply-To: <87a60otji3.fsf@gmail.com> (message from No Wayman on Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:02:05 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87a60otji3.fsf@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: No Wayman > Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:02:05 -0500 > > If I don't hear any convincing objections within the next couple of > hours, I'll merge to emacs-29 branch. Thanks, but emacs-29 is definitely not the right place to install this, even if we decide that we want such a package in Emacs. Assuming people think this is a good idea, it should go to master. And please allow at least a week, maybe even two, for people to react (unless that was an unmarked joke). 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0a554b310619d03e3b86644bf3dccd66; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 00:22:54 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07 Mar 2023 13:48:17 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 08:22:48 +0800 Message-ID: <87bkl4ozvr.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21284 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 566 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Gregory Heytings , Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Though I do not see why replacing the risky topics with more neutral > would hurt, given that the quality of a joke being changed does not > degrade. Because it amounts to kow-towing in front of the mob of hypersensitive people. > What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are > considered occasional? I think that it is something worth clarifying in > https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor Whatever the author of the document felt like at the time it was written, I think. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 08 00:37:21 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2023 05:37:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47658 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZmUK-0005bv-Pv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 00:37:21 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:55531) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZmUI-0005bm-KI for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 00:37:19 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.40.20]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103956.0000000064081F0F.00007287; Tue, 07 Mar 2023 22:37:19 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 08:34:38 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, Gregory Heytings , Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Ihor Radchenko [2023-03-07 16:49]: > The problem with Gnus manual though is that the number of jokes in it is > huge. And it appears that jokes involving sensitive topics are not > occasional. Statements are too hypothetical, they are making the problem, creating the problem where there was none in reality. And participants, IMHO, are acting highly hypothetically, trying to judge public opinion without really asking public. Public relation is about relation to public in plural, and you don't have that. We heard of anonymous Muslim offended by what? Some sex jokes? How about first complaining to his country's censorship department, as they are responsible in the first place to let those offending words pass through their censorship filters (irony). Before deciding which joke is appropriate or not or what shall be removed, one shall ask minimum of 1000 public members. And I believe participants don't have resources for that, but many like to act as "public relation officers" by knowing it all how some people would feel. There was no real problem. No law broken, nobody was harmed, and there was no incident of real user trying to use Gnus, only hypothetical assumptions, no facts. The real problem could be when specific, named, non-anonymous user says that user did not understand part of the manual, and does not know how to use Gnus, but wants to connect to (G)news. Real problem could be also when there would be continuous non-anonymous complaints on those jokes in last 2 decades. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 08 09:04:17 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2023 14:04:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48101 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZuOu-0004qI-Pa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:04:17 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:39673) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZuOt-0004py-4R for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:04:15 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DDB6240072 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:04:08 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1678284249; bh=5iGH8692IdbImT8W3jT4twRGqwErjDUSxvw0svhFCDg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=pC+ONisbOCixvGDtd80aUt2gxUF6bn1ShLgO6xXuARxz/9CcrIe3WZCkfsCA0L54D CbMlsNLqfFIlfQAMcwqzBlMRyxsRud/4Gxy0YIVobd4DXdnchLe5uA28stBz1paS5O CEsgTTjfBSbOOFk/tzXLXhCRV01/nzBh9PiDX65eT1aLO2wS+vbPw87KqI/kywlaq4 9Pw6Q6R/bc5El+Zl6GlhMg6wRnIE6kDKkbGjDWZnroWMLSJGj+CJyv4RXAQKMb3uP1 jtTk4IMNkt+rVWJ1cscQ3zVUaYHPez9nGyjzEI9anEmpYMBKvqKFq/EtSe7zXE166C x+ZGf80NVevnA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PWvF349rqz9rxG; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:04:07 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <87bkl4ozvr.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <87bkl4ozvr.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:05:33 +0000 Message-ID: <874jqve3te.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Gregory Heytings , Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Po Lu writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> Though I do not see why replacing the risky topics with more neutral >> would hurt, given that the quality of a joke being changed does not >> degrade. > > Because it amounts to kow-towing in front of the mob of hypersensitive > people. Why is it a problem? If we can make the manual accessible to more people (hypersensitive or not) by a slight adjustment to the joke and without compromising the quality, why not? I am not talking about removing every joke. >> What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are >> considered occasional? I think that it is something worth clarifying in >> https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor > > Whatever the author of the document felt like at the time it was > written, I think. My question was to clarify how we should read that document. The end goal is updating https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html with the clarification. I assume that RMS is the right person to ask about such thing. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 08 09:12:20 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2023 14:12:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48114 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZuWh-00053p-Sd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:12:20 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:42685) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pZuWg-00053Y-Gs for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:12:19 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C607B24074D for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:12:10 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1678284732; bh=V5DZrZ2+CD5vC73jC5OZaKDBM7oiCMtXfIu/ur5bvRs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=aBjzASu1CKKHhgInY9dyW4t5vZY72MtgsOVc6ra8FWrjnZ+RzMYqpTdzLqzKkwfLq EiYjLlXZFi7IwHJRJICZNUKkFhfC23vTcGYWG0lYXao9Nmpv2zkaSib4uSnJz7Zsoh IbkbrRuiKBsfidpykM8Mp64/ZPBx8IfY6iYxU0+j5BarHhI29uKBu2yqxfqbBHRz7j Co83LgrGUKZvpgsQmwU2nNoMrOzGOrpSREdApfZju1AkUr28hUd1gcaS6H0J4v/dRy k/RzDGOhmlwLxI92vudyvCjEEG5ncbBl0NmHSiQsdL5xqhQDtFJZV9CiE1Bc9oGSJA Gs+JPA1lJ8eKQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PWvQJ2gj4z9rxN; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:12:08 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Jean Louis Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:13:33 +0000 Message-ID: <871qlze3g2.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, Gregory Heytings , Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Jean Louis writes: > * Ihor Radchenko [2023-03-07 16:49]: >> The problem with Gnus manual though is that the number of jokes in it is >> huge. And it appears that jokes involving sensitive topics are not >> occasional. > > Statements are too hypothetical, they are making the problem, creating > the problem where there was none in reality. > > And participants, IMHO, are acting highly hypothetically, trying to > judge public opinion without really asking public. My statement is based on a concrete person complaining about too many inappropriate jokes. I also listed the specific jokes in question. The idea of asking general public has been rejected (see my earlier message about running a poll). Po Lu argued that such a poll will represent people overreacting to the jokes disproportionally (they will tend to participate in the poll more). So, I tried to fall back to the GNU policy. Which, IMHO should be slightly clarified. The part about what "occasional joke" refers to. > Before deciding which joke is appropriate or not or what shall be > removed, one shall ask minimum of 1000 public members. And I believe > participants don't have resources for that, but many like to act as > "public relation officers" by knowing it all how some people would > feel. We have. The previous https://emacssurvey.org/ generated over 1000 replies. But see Po Lu's concern. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8b502188c5a1b615ba2a482e4714299a; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 01:14:42 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <874jqve3te.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:05:33 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <87bkl4ozvr.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jqve3te.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:14:37 +0800 Message-ID: <87y1o6lo8y.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21284 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 381 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Gregory Heytings , Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > Why is it a problem? > If we can make the manual accessible to more people (hypersensitive or > not) by a slight adjustment to the joke and without compromising the > quality, why not? > I am not talking about removing every joke. We are working against such hypersensitive people, not trying to make the manual accessible to them. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f0ef6846d6a183c3913510e192ebe167; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 01:21:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <871qlze3g2.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2023 14:13:33 +0000") References: <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <871qlze3g2.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:21:27 +0800 Message-ID: <87ttyulnxk.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21284 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 26134 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings , Richard Stallman , Jean Louis , stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Ihor Radchenko writes: > My statement is based on a concrete person complaining about too many > inappropriate jokes. I also listed the specific jokes in question. If I decode to complain about something absurd, such as perhaps the fact that your name is Ihor, I will also have become a ``concrete person'' complaining about a specific fact. Does that make such a complaint reasonable? > The idea of asking general public has been rejected (see my earlier > message about running a poll). Po Lu argued that such a poll will > represent people overreacting to the jokes disproportionally (they will > tend to participate in the poll more). > > So, I tried to fall back to the GNU policy. Which, IMHO should be > slightly clarified. The part about what "occasional joke" refers to. The best interpretation is that of time. In over 25 years, people have not complained loudly enough to alter those jokes. I see no reason 2023 should be any different, except maybe that there are more unreasonable people in 2023. 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//q5M/s+QPKff/657vsWrd6lVuwI7gAAAOb6/+hQX+86Kq8ZAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 08 23:07:47 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2023 04:07:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50588 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7ZD-0001b3-Bb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:07:47 -0500 Received: from woodpecker.gentoo.org ([140.211.166.183]:56628 helo=smtp.gentoo.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7ZA-0001am-Na for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:07:46 -0500 User-agent: mu4e 1.8.14; emacs 29.0.60 From: Sam James To: yantar92@posteo.net To: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 04:05:48 +0000 Message-ID: <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --==-=-= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Attached hopefully a good compromise between the original bug & improving it. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: inline; filename=0001-Enhance-joke-to-be-more-fitting-with-Emacs-philosoph.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: Improve joke re groups From=2089350cf5b339749587168438200f41ed40805a1f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Sam James Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 03:54:03 +0000 Subject: [PATCH] ; Enhance joke to be more fitting with Emacs philosophy * Replace "sex groups" with "non-free software groups" as something fitting with the GNU Emacs philosophy. (Bug #61325) =2D-- doc/misc/gnus.texi | 9 ++++----- 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi index f0d3c75d055..08c9b92c431 100644 =2D-- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi @@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ exiting Gnus. =20 If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over =2Dhere, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) =2Dyou put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can =2Deven group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs =2Dgroups or the sex groups---or both! Go wild! +here, your shameful non-free software groups over there, and the rest +(what, two groups or so?) you put in some misc section that you never both= er +with anyway. You can even group the Emacs non-free groups as a sub-topic = to +either the Emacs groups or the non-free groups---or both! Go wild! =20 @iftex @iflatex @@ -3898,7 +3898,6 @@ Go ahead, just try it. I'll still be here when you g= et back. La de dum@dots{} Nice tune, that@dots{} la la la@dots{} What, you're back? Yes, and now press @kbd{l}. There. All your groups are now listed under @samp{misc}. Doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy? =2DHot and bothered? =20 If you want this permanently enabled, you should add that minor mode to the hook for the group mode. Put the following line in your =2D-=20 2.39.2 --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iOUEARYKAI0WIQQlpruI3Zt2TGtVQcJzhAn1IN+RkAUCZAlbhl8UgAAAAAAuAChp c3N1ZXItZnByQG5vdGF0aW9ucy5vcGVucGdwLmZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4ubmV0MjVB NkJCODhERDlCNzY0QzZCNTU0MUMyNzM4NDA5RjUyMERGOTE5MA8cc2FtQGdlbnRv by5vcmcACgkQc4QJ9SDfkZA8fQEAk1I/qQH7OhBuWIweLNhGMasBe47v0tN4L/BC GyOATtIA/jC38R9ZBUucncC3siSHhnUfHfhHHV8g75gN41ZtJssE =cWEk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 08 23:26:26 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2023 04:26:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50602 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7rG-00024s-9m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:26:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48462) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7rE-00024f-9J for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:26:25 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7r7-0006FG-8S; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:26:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=hoMilz1EGoBcrOHinL1FETPZLTQjUlFzy6ZyCRJNdcI=; b=XoKQ74S4FTZE pSuziPC7fhfkg8gNBbAjjwm5X07EpKMlk6lvqQc4qCx6WS5YuBuRzyCoBia9Q6vO11uAw3YQ10zPW igQNVrKnrX2jFncgKzi9SX9k6pKhNlgd9O5jeC2Qt/GPgAB4+2RnyEPt7N7kBqA+dH6SZebP66b/W HykWjZJJL08qZXCWS5Si9smWXSUaMdkhnp0l0j1fxVqLgA4ckTBs/jqtHQJYl3OPgkzmw9K3jLR1V J9mowbtXb3LdmlYOSFggCP1USbCFILsutMXarrmPtX/aIOw+qdxQdE/GURImR58R0ZRYWJYmRn6w/ pcdKUhkryBqNqVzZhG0x1w==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7r7-0000Ci-0Y; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:26:17 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Tue, 07 Mar 2023 13:48:17 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:26:17 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, gregory@heytings.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are > considered occasional? Alas, it is impossible to formulate an exact definition of "occasional". That is the nature of the concept. I think it means that if you feel that you encounter one after another after another, that's not occasional. That's the right way to decide such a question. Of course, we can't expect all people to judge this the same way. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 08 23:28:48 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2023 04:28:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50607 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7tX-00028F-QA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:28:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40698) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7tV-000280-RM for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:28:46 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7tQ-0006tS-K3; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:28:40 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=chvs/Nefwri28Pwc250B1wFKUyNcAsdQZWHNhsPHYN0=; b=i9q+7O+d4ps7 ix6lIsuNaQnX9hDIOGAoGMcGT+gQ9Ul6eWnXGcodAy9ps05SqBAomLT12USWP/3PbK7HgebgBKi9E QGLSED0t1n0iHa/ULUb1SL9jF6wyGeKq5fqaz4LZdM8CXkNh8fh81vgRIkM7iIkBHVfxcsU57Auwv 0weD3lVRhla16LKTUUdq+U6NaIUWJFyRRLoHcUc09vlsUpOgrmF8nfL7BnycAshl1c0MqQBiaXS2I +IlbT/yFYdoPshn9QSh/20w/+95ATJOJSDUaQvI/xTJFLG4LsSxYgcJ9HKbGqXpt+vJaQOq00NwGx 2tbRPs1L7R9LrD+Wu/YtPg==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pa7tQ-000525-4w; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:28:40 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87bkl4ozvr.fsf@yahoo.com> (message from Po Lu on Wed, 08 Mar 2023 08:22:48 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <87bkl4ozvr.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 23:28:40 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, gregory@heytings.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Though I do not see why replacing the risky topics with more neutral > > would hurt, given that the quality of a joke being changed does not > > degrade. > Because it amounts to kow-towing in front of the mob of hypersensitive > people. I agree. If you write a mamual and put no jokes in it, the absence of jokes is not a bug. There is no need to add jokes just so there will be some jokes. If you write a mamual and put no sex-related jokes in it, the absence of sex-related jokes is not a bug. There is no need to add sex-related jokes just so there will be some. If you write a manual with some sex-related jokes, and for some unrelated reason you delete one, deleting it is not a problem. That particular sex-related joke is not essential for a good manual. But if we consider a proposel to delete all sex-related jokes because talking about sex is "offensive", that is not simply proposing a change in the manual. It is, in effect, a proposal to establish a rule against such jokes. That makes it much more of an issue than adding or deleting one particular joke. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 09 09:10:33 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2023 14:10:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51229 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paGyW-0002iy-Qg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:10:33 -0500 Received: from mail-wr1-f51.google.com ([209.85.221.51]:46893) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paGyU-0002ih-DV for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:10:30 -0500 Received: by mail-wr1-f51.google.com with SMTP id bw19so1968778wrb.13 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 06:10:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678371024; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tsXupEu0IlnN3VD2KhIp7bAha1c1dKYoRKlPveOVeJc=; b=E6a8PgDBveV/zAwBCFuIIpCDQNZWfrc/98TehRTCQlmw+mxOBqnICSWwEhaNESmb6Z DT2C8ggDylCfRSpRkEGusPDwOKsfw3FmBI1IjRfxfENM/fYg7Fi0fcN6SAaUQCBuA5Ej 6FkT+9o6uY1C5oasnXbXP+Uf/GSA2K1lEkoQj64gxP3Pe8kn3PvEYrokegWgbS8YI9Pf fg1vBn8lviKHPm1i8NiKJODKU7e5GJ39Zun1mgDQmIIlAW6TnWBp4nWPaKUUtWvry2Mx 796fC3qGFZksZIdd54Rsmch1dX/TtSwhDMVyXIHAf3jPlql3zrQpw2ci7rKxDA1LJ5Ec A2xw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678371024; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=tsXupEu0IlnN3VD2KhIp7bAha1c1dKYoRKlPveOVeJc=; b=IP1s6ennKwp4Kz4eQwF/9OvSXeesMEwBC6/xt/JX9JU3n0huPaoX6Vq6EKUIaR1+tM 2zPcCG7FsutawUeH1qz2ZrhFHIZYakZ8bMJS11ScQtuC6WNkGwbE0CvsB61FJz2htwO1 6/PoTdcoBSAji8S+8a23OSFy1mZSE7rU/HjoRxUiFaJXUZFFVHMjLLySjCNUqTvr6G76 +n3ydK0bs3qrzJuPoXPOZY1qclkT2oz+gw4hndFFsxworFkSRHY/v1XTGFe0jsPvKAxx w1CTVHvb3XM/kXs16TL5wii+cOgHuK1BcbkPNcLlULcCHHbUFdKwGboqPlMF2PTfI/5r howw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVZogRkmQYjogN6kEvmZSFuAmYNd06pJaML4adjzLTg7aUkwBhz 2A80TyjxPDKG7JT1uTAzfOI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+IU+5jzsCXEiWp06KG212QKDRLnoBoQIDUQMEA5fCKZlowzhmhhtWMryaU1pbFsPQeXUMPEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4147:0:b0:2ca:6442:c811 with SMTP id c7-20020a5d4147000000b002ca6442c811mr14460156wrq.51.1678371024264; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 06:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([85.132.229.92]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z11-20020a5d654b000000b002c70f5627d5sm17789086wrv.63.2023.03.09.06.10.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Mar 2023 06:10:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.7.1 Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Content-Language: en-US To: Sam James , yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote: > Attached hopefully a good compromise between the > original bug & improving it. I like that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 09 09:17:14 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2023 14:17:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51233 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paH50-0002tL-J6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:17:14 -0500 Received: from mail-wm1-f53.google.com ([209.85.128.53]:38738) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paH4y-0002t7-W9 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:17:13 -0500 Received: by mail-wm1-f53.google.com with SMTP id ay29-20020a05600c1e1d00b003e9f4c2b623so3705179wmb.3 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 06:17:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678371427; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=dTG1s997XYApIhhrnS9VWbUMQ/NYrAYmZ2qMy17wD9I=; b=Hmy1wkLSTsdzPJd0OnBKI5bM+R3r2xZH6qgxagAq3fs8Et1BmRNmyaDeDUSqhiEuhr RoyOcvXNsPTn87pXg88lcQEdYTLWZUiWa3h9C9LF+taa8CM7OC7/TY2Rru3l/lAgffYi dfl7tisRq6aWQe7YecJUApquFdd+qw0grYkrcMzL1UodVqdK029Oi/Qskwr5nIpYeI4Q ggpsPZST/nq1WKdb/syuGPfe4Jj9TxoI3QqIYKg5gR/24r6375mIPwEw6MNllGRu31La L/zKJ3BVlN9iUqTmgke0jVEL8EuyKcSzi8jEUr+frIulbhhoLvCzDmtfef9n9g8TGV2A Gy6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678371427; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=dTG1s997XYApIhhrnS9VWbUMQ/NYrAYmZ2qMy17wD9I=; b=Jyacjhylf4JwOUNf3wWv1frzK9+VwecnuR9+UJ2LPXcT+aZqVNRibU2qHguDapdvfJ G11jZvlBv2dVaHHS5Cfb2nAVZyE3w8RS3bEapB/M5QRk8V4ZXrm79ifxszhpTFjKeCTL 2AZcExRBJaDxhr9stIIUFnwBN1qPrj3DhjO+z2j+EFkDHIDjRDgrblfV/Y1rpyOKGMai KPHx7a/nAmpc8d7USLWjaxykK3dUoDLD4AjwEN16tY36lKhUe6MAOCUNQ5BKTbuPUo8M sVtmzZnOG2LbrisR5ASOB/7ovXOEyEraoydSJMFqC0/lxQhyTiJKZ42xuqRthfmDl8Ih D0bA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVI8r8veubYd1gCN/LcxVUZxmBAPkaZwSaRo3HjEww44rN6T4TI FJFjPkvkcO4c0eo7QJPzX6hjNlW+m9c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+H6bK7B0mHTZrY7HeYgI96xqAm/32Yl8CUAta5U5SXwKDx5JxZwHKHbMbSaudKiNvPh5oznw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:3b13:b0:3e2:6c6:31a6 with SMTP id m19-20020a05600c3b1300b003e206c631a6mr19092963wms.9.1678371426799; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 06:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rltb ([82.66.8.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q17-20020a05600c46d100b003e91b9a92c9sm3187041wmo.24.2023.03.09.06.17.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 09 Mar 2023 06:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Pluim To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 15:17:05 +0100 Message-ID: <87wn3qvwke.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, Sam James , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200, Dmitry Gutov sa= id: Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote: >> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the >> original bug & improving it. Dmitry> I like that. I don=CA=BCt. It loses the self-deprecating joke that hackers care about sex and Emacs, and very little else. Robert --=20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 09 11:58:04 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2023 16:58:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52984 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paJae-0007TD-DJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:58:04 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com ([209.85.208.53]:46893) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paJac-0007Sf-TM for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:58:03 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id k10so9547379edk.13 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 08:58:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678381077; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=haZ6V0wlZtU4TQgk6GC+bybQeh0xehwTdeoZyrQ6r84=; b=TPH8K+5cV4ZxeVLanf5OGW/FfapdyYJByE+w8lblqckFNzm11+Ou0GtZlUgkXTEX/o Tug03ubgOuweqY92YR6sbqaIJbTuPklSUk8SFOaOqsVfpZQ4ywIfpG8Bk/71vPgjLKIU yOzZ37L3srs7bdW3czDVDJBFLwtGfFjizMICz+fVpqmPGvab3nQMJH2MWFdS4D/HzLPF f2F+G+FXoI6n7LF6N8X6Uj9tWxibZzE3F5ScPs4aZ0D0SsmllVYv3nqlSgiCwQUMjJc+ f99LD2B0SfJsqcdGDgOlnsV+acvoEbWPsxnbWekwKBHIXNzCaWwemYGP2mclJwIk6NkS kSPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678381077; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=haZ6V0wlZtU4TQgk6GC+bybQeh0xehwTdeoZyrQ6r84=; b=gs5l/8BSvYiq5OuJkg6aXvwIduONoL6Ge4wIiVIn+zsO2y9bQR9rI8xfCfSvs2U/u7 MoqW/acTN2xSg0xBY2JeS1Nv8Rwt31IHVeNF39MRZbCtiW2KDzFhArtBWa2klR7WE0kh j06MFkOnyfP3vH9n4O/6BTZgk2JDg0kGAhty6GZvjBaPzyivZ5OFMgqFRGmryqCWqB63 dNTo1UXj5GllEzBEhorGN5DT+wuSghbnLwwPszvdVx529LZfcb0n+cAvC6EQdArnE6T+ bt0jddqzO5TWqd0w8BIU1SxAHuKjeqbH6CTJRtvD39Mqg+WZJZNiyr5ADdgleHZscSHX pb6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUqx1EBzvDpCTHQ7mGVvbY6Ptd/LV841s9Xx6h0VftJ+T/L5RuH PlTjI+aoSW7afmgl45LjUJc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/GQ2TRt67BqTIwVN9CvV1tGYJ1Whi5McbMYBAUYcfcuzokYlhcWn4WPS1dKian6oT1uSYn1Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:70f:b0:4af:7390:b488 with SMTP id w15-20020a056402070f00b004af7390b488mr21411379edx.40.1678381077105; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 08:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([85.132.229.92]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id i6-20020a17090671c600b008b26f3d45fbsm9173571ejk.143.2023.03.09.08.57.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Mar 2023 08:57:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 18:57:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.7.1 Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Content-Language: en-US To: Robert Pluim References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> <87wn3qvwke.fsf@gmail.com> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: <87wn3qvwke.fsf@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, Sam James , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) On 09/03/2023 16:17, Robert Pluim wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200, Dmitry Gutov said: > Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote: > >> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the > >> original bug & improving it. > > Dmitry> I like that. > > I donʼt. It loses the self-deprecating joke that hackers care about > sex and Emacs, and very little else. Do they, though? I'm not a puritan, but the "joke" seems juvenile to me, and simply not very funny. I get the point about preserving history, but maybe the latest version of the official manual is not the best place for that effort. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 09 12:06:16 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2023 17:06:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52994 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paJiZ-0007in-OJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 12:06:16 -0500 Received: from mail-wm1-f47.google.com ([209.85.128.47]:46747) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paJiY-0007iY-UB for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 12:06:15 -0500 Received: by mail-wm1-f47.google.com with SMTP id l7-20020a05600c1d0700b003eb5e6d906bso1671782wms.5 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:06:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678381568; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ndCTp2dgehnFqg8oshfmOFR7ozZqTbQhzBZqooLteR0=; b=pJQfi7o/WrMOvivK5kNlXZGq7EhMP00wR+JsqQMGeu3lWCXYWM+ohE14PgBZABUcew Kq8p2aopOUj7hT9Zot9+eo1bWsYvninItOr0ol4yZTB6EgwhAE3nMRGT4eMDpQp6aOp6 MCrQEXN3IUwzF41UjWysf1C7jjZfa91UPC/fz0ru/wcvU11F6Om2QH5fOGg+bDvdZhes YkbvpSYS4FxhHAstMu//6TywXMkxJaiKWg4LcfAqHJYHUWPBJwmeOi6DsIqjf2PHOwy0 2ijVDG3Dw5Dcq+iRsGgtrMtQ8EWyG/tmVtfc443vFj+ey/KrvGaTOeV3RfJ8r52TlriT HnXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678381568; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ndCTp2dgehnFqg8oshfmOFR7ozZqTbQhzBZqooLteR0=; b=dJRLbFV1f/YB9dtsDaifneciunPC/Jm3t7+hbxtt8Nxo2+xm/XiU77CW8uqHnlvx2c gkuVWaBlHD2f27c7AzzxG0y2EzygxHjXmfvTFoHIQHtJFUsOrENBM6HI1VV55YH3LJXg SY0UOKf/97/o0pN7MJf/BC5QB9m473Z/DomxilUcQ7w1hHGD3kiFbjhuBF6P0urUOAtn U5SSaD3OKfsmecOCJ8/V2Ayyb22Vt9IV0cSOcRcDnw/1m1XC6dQ8dvkuEQ6qmClSXRwl lw8ue+KrDtmGu/L799bVZ8bfASDXjVnVJJwJwu79zRuPFMc9CFpthiMCQmcVHT0ECfb/ gRlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXi1jB20wzuVyx5UaWQHnxV9uPgzsfNyLllv29StvJFBSnXJqLd +fPirvLghImLX1koW3UN1WAXuiklCqo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9bi4hViLY+IRh/PHKiYWFaQNssQBw2R+7hMdqb6hLIcov9ib6UsfiVLFWxNyoOSsx7rgpELg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1d29:b0:3eb:3945:d3f4 with SMTP id l41-20020a05600c1d2900b003eb3945d3f4mr13698wms.2.1678381568457; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rltb ([82.66.8.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y20-20020a1c4b14000000b003e7c89b3514sm404737wma.23.2023.03.09.09.06.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:06:07 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Pluim To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Thu, 9 Mar 2023 18:57:55 +0200") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> <87wn3qvwke.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 18:06:07 +0100 Message-ID: <87sfedx3b4.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, Sam James , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 18:57:55 +0200, Dmitry Gutov sa= id: Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 16:17, Robert Pluim wrote: >>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200, Dmitry Gutov said: Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote: >> >> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the >> >> original bug & improving it. Dmitry> I like that. >> I don=CA=BCt. It loses the self-deprecating joke that hackers care a= bout >> sex and Emacs, and very little else. Dmitry> Do they, though? Of course not. That=CA=BCs why it=CA=BCs a joke. Dmitry> I'm not a puritan, but the "joke" seems juvenile to me, and sim= ply not Dmitry> very funny. Dmitry> I get the point about preserving history, but maybe the latest = version Dmitry> of the official manual is not the best place for that effort. I don=CA=BCt see why we=CA=BCre expending so much effort on an attempted re-write of something that is absolutely not offensive to anyone who=CA=BCs not looking to get offended. Robert --=20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 09 16:08:22 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2023 21:08:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53203 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paNUs-0005Z5-6Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 16:08:22 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:44266) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paNUp-0005Yw-5P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 16:08:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1paNUo-0002n0-1A for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 16:08:18 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1paNUm-0003LM-FX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 16:08:17 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1paNUe-0007CV-BN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 22:08:08 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: "Jose A. Ortega Ruiz" Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:10:13 +0000 Message-ID: <87pm9hlm8q.fsf@mail.jao.io> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> <87wn3qvwke.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ZSmb+ihsPMzUlLtCZ3kltVf+APg= X-Attribution: jao X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett X-URL: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On Thu, Mar 09 2023, Robert Pluim wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200, Dmitry Gutov said: > > Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote: > >> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the > >> original bug & improving it. > > Dmitry> I like that. > > I donʼt. It loses the self-deprecating joke that hackers care about > sex and Emacs, and very little else. Agreed. As I see it, these jokes are, in their small scale, literature, not technical writing. One doesn't rewrite literature, unless one is Roald Dahl's editor, or the original author of the work. IMHO, it'd be more respectful to their authors to simply delete the jokes if need be (I don't think there's any need, though). jao -- Since when do we have to agree with people to defend them from injustice? -Lillian Hellman, playwright (20 Jun 1905-1984) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 09 23:26:05 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2023 04:26:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53433 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paUKS-0000yx-Lv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 23:26:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43582) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paUKQ-0000yT-AI for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 23:26:02 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1paUKK-0006qo-IH; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 23:25:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=Y+eFVUMDAEUtAn57Ta8vGjIIh5eo0wl31XzbN1wrao4=; b=mgj9Mu2babU3 tws7a3R6KrRlKJi1f11SqBfVj2AfaRB7cZGH2YfSooXt5XZ7YI8MKL/Bfr0JhZC6iIigNBTfRGFxa L23oC/uVrpDT3QnBmUpjZ5dkru0yBNKOCHf43jpHl/MFupxCXGACuV9bQWErOBuBOXpwYLXWT22/b f/TZtoWEYSjzzrdmlHDZv0KxaBl9JyxUfuSFT7XRnhGv9SGo47NhbKPs01upWYwX8R42aLuX4MuK0 9Kb6tz27MTMK1s05ol1kfYUapX/sDR2PYQ8ycctu6jdx+hkzqD9NJ1u5v0Z5ucZJzznJvxkYlC0nO REoYx/SjDja2kgHq/vCi4g==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1paUKK-0007Kr-AU; Thu, 09 Mar 2023 23:25:56 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87y1o6lo8y.fsf@yahoo.com> (message from Po Lu on Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:14:37 +0800) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <87bkl4ozvr.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jqve3te.fsf@localhost> <87y1o6lo8y.fsf@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 23:25:56 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, gregory@heytings.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > We are working against such hypersensitive people, not trying to make > the manual accessible to them. I wouldn't put it so strongly. We have no wish to make them suffer. I'd say we are resisting their pressure in a peaceful way. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 10 02:04:15 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2023 07:04:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53523 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paWnR-0005Kd-4r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 02:04:15 -0500 Received: from sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.206]:33761) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paWnP-0005KB-2u for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 02:04:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1678431840; bh=dkpkNWMaYKsbJ5IC5eTOvJEQfBUg7pPYK69CKCe0ixk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=lrlI8Z8n34gZHz2htUvULzjezSBnSyjZgilKIMDVKFDGNeDBkomPP8GrZJABhVJMJFk42yKDDJ57Y1x05lfM/9j/vkq0Fad4bTqJYknxtlaHfcAPXi8CkTDP94Eu4xK7n9mdKHQT7bFR22j1daNYjaM+/IJzpXLyJESf2OOFzPb0iVbLaEodbJMPP24kP3C7gyouXlpEO0Qs6qqX3NwPb6Y4NFHm1tK80POl6esaeZWDFQKEImNYw6D6HtDHU99cl7onE1a2CaonhYm65nbN1J4M/AYl8om6V9sMuc7x6f7jXDzAPzwYaq5PgwtvlsiB7boivMAv3epf9WiQZstg2g== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1678431840; bh=COq+k3VE0jumqbL0MTOLTyh4csOuCGHbJzrOQAaWrjW=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=h4cVz5tyGlIfbyRQIHb+bYY6u3NWwJpBjNQK12lAwC+IkeIVBb0a3VNCndLeRT6+Bdozd0LtpSQ4tlq+CzA1Mt4v+o2WCkxeLbbK5C0uUYMgADgvDbx9KSj+jQZlPRx5VmcPFFrvqGEUQZdmWPt4oRl4Gv5H+Px/vaQOMx8wkkJ5lIsn0z9GsvyHjNMiGsLC271AvBFKNqCsOfplv0zw7rnc57cQHXesG2ITWaxuFGy83i4epPFc7heebNWUfDiuWu43F2nPJxYuNfhAqfGHYsJiBL8TWkR/Z6erF/BEFCn50AH3wh8TD2Ik7kCLgwKOhn3Ahpa7BMbfK38A2YGVLQ== X-YMail-OSG: 2Um_IlYVM1n5F3zZ8rDFPFk_oKIs9Nx6dxIVnlEbLsdoB8cbArysgU7_4B9S4Ae q.b2kvDJMdBB4q8lTYj0ytgej7hFookYYKcngfYZ9VbqLI.6UFFG46MxeSe8T80Aj0DMebIzPxj1 cyHHNPLnimyoxgJb_aI4yNgU1eozdza6Z2sc7UiIkW_EWSeco4eNXU96ve5KDLfg32HorWo_YPvs 2wM2Ll9OZRUIdAl.TPeCJPsA9bAdLykzNhA_wUcXe72WGnw8Xe9CAQAGq4ztpC1t3LZqtHhlRZpz yyka2L6EhC.23egQt8QVknBJ42Y3C4kKHtrOBFQWx0ZPbSLXW68lDO3_Cj_badwiGXeUfhXE5zBV W35pn3pWpsDGIRcazoTLx_y9iHJxKpo3MX4oF1sEsEZ8V87a6CWP6mfqsqqWMSwLvl5Shtfb93Ai iF9gYE375rlZhaDJULfRgdbBfVQ1Vg5mH9K9RgCzIco6hMb6p_cfRw.H9IiyVsR0am1A6FT1UFSM NuBunH19cPNRvcuvsdGujxjR_W0inHDtrGL0KyZ.GZMF9DPhj_RSEzut6wkEv_lMq2hE79aSyRdN yt7OC.eq6GmHPwTK3IsYz6LaLbv8Outnz_VVNWMj9_md4HQ_akF.B8.i5DfrkKVbGeu2ezLlgD66 aE6NhWCJfoH8vWvHbjhvB5hoTaLknIWIsN.Pwq8Yu9VNd1h942hvYWMoDPAIFuf8VmIjggBjdJA5 DevppgFgOH_apmODyL45TS1R6SNg39lP3dcO0TQcudp9IjrJFMlkNh7hUCKKXH.NSZOGkZPz59.. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 76c990f84d916339c32e6110663d2ae2; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:03:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2023 23:25:56 -0500") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <87bkl4ozvr.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jqve3te.fsf@localhost> <87y1o6lo8y.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:03:50 +0800 Message-ID: <875yb9hyuh.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21284 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 204 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, gregory@heytings.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman writes: > I wouldn't put it so strongly. We have no wish to make them suffer. > I'd say we are resisting their pressure in a peaceful way. So, can we close this bug now? 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5636865c5409cb799c956ac904744244; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 10:53:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Sam James Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> (Sam James's message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2023 04:05:48 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 18:53:48 +0800 Message-ID: <87r0twho77.fsf@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21284 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 2441 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sam James writes: > Attached hopefully a good compromise between the > original bug & improving it. > > From 89350cf5b339749587168438200f41ed40805a1f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 > From: Sam James > Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 03:54:03 +0000 > Subject: [PATCH] ; Enhance joke to be more fitting with Emacs philosophy > > * Replace "sex groups" with "non-free software groups" as something > fitting with the GNU Emacs philosophy. (Bug #61325) > --- > doc/misc/gnus.texi | 9 ++++----- > 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-) > > diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi > index f0d3c75d055..08c9b92c431 100644 > --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi > +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi > @@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ exiting Gnus. > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over > -here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) > -you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can > -even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > -groups or the sex groups---or both! Go wild! > +here, your shameful non-free software groups over there, and the rest > +(what, two groups or so?) you put in some misc section that you never bother > +with anyway. You can even group the Emacs non-free groups as a sub-topic to > +either the Emacs groups or the non-free groups---or both! Go wild! > > @iftex > @iflatex > @@ -3898,7 +3898,6 @@ Go ahead, just try it. I'll still be here when you get back. La de > dum@dots{} Nice tune, that@dots{} la la la@dots{} What, you're back? > Yes, and now press @kbd{l}. There. All your groups are now listed > under @samp{misc}. Doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy? > -Hot and bothered? > > If you want this permanently enabled, you should add that minor mode to > the hook for the group mode. Put the following line in your First of all, we should not compromise with people who want to take away our freedom to read a good joke in the manual. That alone is enough to reject this change. Secondly, your change equates sex with something shameful and nasty, like the development of proprietary software. That is not true. Finally, you did not even update the sample Group buffer contents. BTW, for the reasons outlined by the Chief GNUsiance, can we please close this bug report now? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 10 06:31:56 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2023 11:31:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53851 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paaya-0004EV-Il for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:31:56 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:60227) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paayY-0004E9-PT for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:31:55 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8FF224037A for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:31:46 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1678447908; bh=+9GCbT7HlW3ac+iZUZik5UAbir7ONDqdm+MAkfqt1Pk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=ZoIKa8ieYMgfBsjfqACP0/kBrGE6lZbYmBTz3kicyyoLJbWpitbhs1uQODQAI6yXx Yw/92XQmI5bOSGUO83ovAU6adDeGruaMVBLQLxtnywYQvRs3PD0RzpGTXwjC/kIfza PesGxArfUjh86m46q61feMW8dF2mUKBWTvOBsS7NsUSd8uCUBPdSF3LLQ00Z+KTSD4 aS5/3ukJXOfkb/Wat76yPQ41+MfdbpWRbcebhjs/juUADZqsjLc1tW/Wbzew1Lq6ul IgIaqX9teoSFxSLuRLQrqvCl82Uq939WmPuJ9NLY/cmdyL1xo074W9QfnS9KkHjZVs R8rMjWo0JuwoQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PY3mK1gM0z6tnX; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:31:42 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:33:13 +0000 Message-ID: <875yb8zvra.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, gregory@heytings.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman writes: > > What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are > > considered occasional? > > Alas, it is impossible to formulate an exact definition of > "occasional". That is the nature of the concept. > > I think it means that if you feel that you encounter one after another > after another, that's not occasional. That's the right way to decide > such a question. Of course, we can't expect all people to judge this > the same way. Thanks for the clarification! It is a bit unsatisfactory, but understandable. Trying to provide a measurable criterion would likely get such criterion wrong anyway. WRT this bug report, my understanding is the following: Just the fact of using a sensitive topic for a joke must not be a reason to remove it. The only reason would be showing and getting others to agree that such jokes are numerous across the manual. What is not clear for me is a stance on replacing the jokes on sensitive topic with equivalent jokes on less sensitive topic. Unless such change is making the jokes worse, should it be rejected? Accepted? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 10 06:32:50 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2023 11:32:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53859 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paazS-0004Gv-At for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:32:50 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:36639) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1paazQ-0004Gc-E9 for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 06:32:49 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3666240658 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:32:42 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1678447962; bh=+9GCbT7HlW3ac+iZUZik5UAbir7ONDqdm+MAkfqt1Pk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=mP62KhxOeob+KRFxA3lKXHrHBR5cAk3e69Q1H/c9DggD09YcUvhuM/yuEKc6B3Ids 1kEV79qChChDsoykThPhW8jBCC2/COD9Ldqk7aBgu3SJecf58mj5QkyMngeiiBDPsr yUvIrsBDEb3dE6k9uQ4TsiVLnQG5nJEz4Yh+n/NTLzEKRX21IGNhCvu2Gu+rLT1v9Z iicre/+ggdw2QTWUxX5WTPNmP0giUPCYmedPC8K7CzLN1yP5mUvhqYTFggrTD1CXpt oqUIrGqbFBtlJo+utIuCfkipfHFR9YUpDW4DaEqapeBWTN6gSDYZggjm6pMIt5oWN9 fhqRRZfe+Mo8g== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PY3nQ0gxFz6tmY; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:32:41 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:34:08 +0000 Message-ID: <874jqszvpr.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, gregory@heytings.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman writes: > > What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are > > considered occasional? > > Alas, it is impossible to formulate an exact definition of > "occasional". That is the nature of the concept. > > I think it means that if you feel that you encounter one after another > after another, that's not occasional. That's the right way to decide > such a question. Of course, we can't expect all people to judge this > the same way. Thanks for the clarification! It is a bit unsatisfactory, but understandable. Trying to provide a measurable criterion would likely get such criterion wrong anyway. WRT this bug report, my understanding is the following: Just the fact of using a sensitive topic for a joke must not be a reason to remove it. The only reason would be showing and getting others to agree that such jokes are numerous across the manual. What is not clear for me is a stance on replacing the jokes on sensitive topic with equivalent jokes on less sensitive topic. Unless such change is making the jokes worse, should it be rejected? Accepted? -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 10 07:07:09 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2023 12:07:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53921 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pabWf-0005Rr-Fc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:07:09 -0500 Received: from sonic309-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.146]:36172) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pabWe-0005Rd-FR for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:07:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1678450023; bh=8NcbkRX0oKWAO2xRoN2O40Z5piG8lQxONy2pT1G3tjA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=H7mLwqhNxfqEt8+0sDUDrGZGRfz9mUQPAbtPSX2KeqG35Tq3/IBxDtryoxXoq4LRfYMi69YitlozMpJ59l60ouww+TOI5xTZPYwHQcgKjL6Usn4yRoL3ZOWfKXPahCf6rZEjz9MqJJsV2UWbL9YMlhI/ZxwyPnDhX6LVQX/f+oxKkIkLvGA+afn9sdUTLesOtHKHndSdzI0geRkiFQ7YPuGJJRvrZ09DKoz6cwbfX+McSGoGCYZap6EqHA+VdL9BBXHyLmrSnMe/F4WrpwD8osSo9q1hNpkEzbNiWvML4pkvZuQOhr0KbJnCI3r826C9IDBvNB2u0l1A4vHRD9+Kvw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1678450023; bh=4TXBWOcYFwMfqj+lh25TQUDTBRGwBIMFG0OxNzIcH+Y=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=Y2K4/cqhyjcTYluycOO7oiDYebcvKffETpfDWSuarM8Emjl1qYILOlK38T5Wtx2iqq7t5INZDXcwJhTLo4HuGU41/XNZ6D8AUfKHybW4Twk1eLicNrdwGxOPqC88Bh/QfbJZRbTYyZHHtCfulcLHATgsML8LuMEwFrWMUt2rKEmsl/N83d+Q6VQrGMOmfA/TEBVBHHvQxeuAtUCWdS/EcW+TEzBNRe2TU3k1mvcGNchZ6FljD4Ha1yx02R6Z7Z3VjucDqqKDronfUj2xxydeigKxR4YAVY7hK0STm/acuowE+JOJBBEcvkjlBC/wlZxXWgi9mUSCV/TD7vAcXNLNuQ== X-YMail-OSG: .LTKAFoVM1l7ucRSGtATmXp2SeODTu59dsnEY37mKxgrhohOa8Ghdqgr3PjfGHW n6qzq4kW2o7vP9RYHsXIc.KdYftSb90HtP6PTEjcsqLZDL_F_tMEyr4Vzya.NbonRclMHNHH34d0 nZq6M5XQSKl.9awrCSclYUbd4boSHjdldyB4UyPttdqK5dN_0f4ysuL.kflLz6yFZ.YQhqPZ6dtN uW42O6AwcAZAsjBIAkgZika8Y5mQzvsPE_GCKtjBtxHyRnZKXQO23_fWjmuFcNu0hRWgDB9adxHJ 3Vn8q40.VF_yRDgU73wnsvWG_JnfOgubo4HeBc6XS4KHGrkpZrr67lkVk8rxFZSuOqw8_QEur_bQ H8f6llZKSo8SKR1.1QJZUsNpOb8J_Jgs4qVtQFtypCnEYz0p45EgJJEyerjTtSWbBRG7gs7tVWJm o40ljaIFBx3DKkN8pBoEb2X9ypW3Xg8qSoaj.EbIuTXT2kiYiamKkhwpvDkNEkOpIFJGYT86NN1_ U_0JMXzK1mAxR3k4dvGyzs98GDzMy08FQKHPLFlMj5fNfoHc6h6G6NBNI1t2.7LW0wXFysXbep1h r2XYPTwdJJ7.b8MriXMHnl4YENHjM97EnX1tbM9W0mNqaZ3A9QAor2BXfLXaKoxeK1HZg75QAPKl kbLPGoMZ5eXzmYbaDiUbihtTjsiwMUFtwqgjuqDunYLfKH_fBOObXv_jc5n5P6AUkDQi6E16iPFH tsqtCVRiqZA._j_ijLr7weDt9xKeeg5C7uzPrSfhpbB6FGdnC2wFigPPwAEVk87mAoDkRlo8P_Z_ XyxP6YVaoAtApteP1j.ICBmfhwWyazNn_M4.zFh9H4rDj6a4YuON1ODSnMsqLvX9XUYnLmSgefKC wxiYibbArs4sWm9.IYaanSPV8xzl.gsWoFOHR3ti3GjChEN1mVWgWqm0XjETSEkeRhl.RSg9Uyf0 497VjTmNaxov7Z58hAzN3hbjxXVpbpqPuHMKkx_dinySPXi7dKvxNX05jw7rXkxFP1tkDafVKCip dpwYKAbJavMDnAsjn3jyygg1q_1aIXIwbdM4_47Qk85954ue.S8OrGPj1GC0y44OzkLmoYWATg3l hQblVZ3dixLTWQLJZnTwyrsSpMWpO1Cchga8llEzCj1ZNPaHPgwfRpegIEzRrSYuvHJ3MtqW9CqY chT_uwkl0GyPFqcb22WK9M03c8EEbHbQAHftnVHeilHlPx49gv9pRoYrX9HT9mcQLzhefgwJxFk9 wnOVyDWRrncxhq0u1zRO.Xq3U38Xa2HNuKmCWqCdijWV3I2xEKBsi3wd.yUicYTQ17OqzaY7uiS5 3VFdgKSWGSRLQURBpc6PX5M23XnK1h0F3C5Q0lzbIZ6dC25EjUbLpviZhWZ6xO2.ToqfCOMl77_A cbAKnhvyPbZGEdytpk0rwYKMoWBwECvhee9NGIjMCPncTn8zA527lI502T8O5Q7pQOixW4niMHoS K8_Q_H_SgpoX41UQw2MDQJSo_TNlcezOwlo3.bVr3qnVZ2KsAsCQBzcAJRyafPBXKe7TkAgbEQ_Z RSLw8H.W2jjkR7PYrkJ9l1.5LuMBJHP2Djjx62Ip22pAY16j.B5pjQrlbWpzaiTENEI5FYkm6pCF eORUEg5l2YzcTkl9KwX_LuaBKKS7X8xZ7n.ESbYowODi7F9waL7mhyymwH4bKz9J2ibP6S6tMziL NKsJ04M.ELguTrRwii_wwN8qbzb.z186zS4.AdkdLZCz.OzZx8RqJ1zh599ku46_DIFb2lVgqzPp Pa7FfYbMEtw_bR5lUKRGoT4eCHnxLfj.p.Q71G4OhsvWJMpBSJJJsiBKEpG3AtoV_3ENOKXmMrvA ljvPjrM0nmXLgZ.MWO4dWijIaYi8__pjM.MXa.pdkV3PhIFeEsHWGn9DftmkAqXf1.A5njgQludt aHJXz1Q1ua0TGIxd968qYVAtRi6e0LnYSVkf62RrnHvMuhf98l4iEdTV4Unmqvg13itNUIYpQoys XpCaTU2UdHni4ZZ_yXLqj5eO8qiUevPanTdG1H7AXW.1IXh7c6QkKIXsfUupnV7dV15zTTsy5jqm uP_LACbHv_l.yLUQZqIm1Zr_ZnQEur1wpys8OvzelB2Cp8doHw4tBVQ3GpOEdycUntNJGoQ9fDi4 9detNt5i6U1_UW7DwGQlX7w39Hj3MG8GWw2O9S.G5dMcuYF9bUJ8DjiLHtNmITMppZrZdeFqfOt9 KCF8AElElmI28wnzhs59AlFuJzVhmDinGfIdBIxl.df8w6_SSQAM16GVXgjU_lTVb8sU- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:07:03 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-sg3-67c57bccff-b6t8r (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d7e2a2233f8e4a7d4232916dad0cad6a; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:06:59 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <874jqszvpr.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2023 11:34:08 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <874jqszvpr.fsf@localhost> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:06:54 +0800 Message-ID: <87fsachktd.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21284 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1065 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: gregory@heytings.org, rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > What is not clear for me is a stance on replacing the jokes on sensitive > topic with equivalent jokes on less sensitive topic. Unless such change > is making the jokes worse, should it be rejected? Accepted? Rejected, because we want to set an example of resisting the pressure from snowflakes who believe their hyper-sensitivities are important enough to warrant imposition on others. Throughout the Internet, this seems to be a losing battle, and as a result more and more software is having the fun taken out of it. But we must not allow that battle to be lost in Emacs. P.S: Remember the non-GNU anti-social edict that was being pushed about some time around 3 years ago? Do you want Emacs to become one of the pieces of software that have a long list of rules, the sole purpose of which is to determine which individuals are to be kicked out of the project, based on whatever an allergic person happens to react to? Catering to snowflakes is a very slippery slope, which always leads to that in the end. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 10 07:38:02 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2023 12:38:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53992 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pac0Y-0000Fj-DP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:38:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58394) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pac0W-0000FF-NR for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:38:01 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pac0R-0002C9-6w; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:37:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=xEABjse/qT8apHtz4z4ep/8wzhXp+7bKu0JmxRz8nY0=; b=n7fhhNPi0g1f l45Q84HWV2MazqVd0jlcxbJelA6f3jki2jPN5ZTQJHxUtYuWYVjxHyS045IGhAIzZVk+Hsexeg5DY W5IdWOBg+Ab6IQQIbNFWJRx2nmi/5UrONivyLhGGP1lK0Y/o35F5gfDh9SsARH9d1JeHa9fWkhmml XvY0noPEtXNH8XKhOUqlazMDhywmf6TUqdaZfd+sJJOgwFHPom8MPGzCaiL8fI7Y6h/ZKWt+LR9ii Xc0mUbIs6w82t4qsLxG7tiXQ0dEsxKxzwKPvw3DSUdmB3KfGBmlCuHl5frrMx01VlN+Op4dnyDARd 1d392xLu0Pp70rgrNeVNTA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pac0L-0006on-4Q; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:37:49 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:37:31 +0200 Message-Id: <83fsaczss4.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Po Lu In-Reply-To: <87fsachktd.fsf@yahoo.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <874jqszvpr.fsf@localhost> <87fsachktd.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, stefankangas@gmail.com, gregory@heytings.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: gregory@heytings.org, rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:06:54 +0800 > From: Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Ihor Radchenko writes: > > > What is not clear for me is a stance on replacing the jokes on sensitive > > topic with equivalent jokes on less sensitive topic. Unless such change > > is making the jokes worse, should it be rejected? Accepted? > > Rejected That's your opinion. It is not necessarily what we will do. What we should and will do is to consider each case separately, and making a separate decision for each case. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 390a02732f1bfa8db64529770b41b4f3; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:41:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: <83fsaczss4.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:37:31 +0200") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> <873577570z.fsf@localhost> <875yc2s89n.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <874jqszvpr.fsf@localhost> <87fsachktd.fsf@yahoo.com> <83fsaczss4.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:41:19 +0800 Message-ID: <877cvohj80.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21284 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 177 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, stefankangas@gmail.com, gregory@heytings.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > That's your opinion. Since Ihor was evidently asking for an opinion (``should it'', rather than ``will it''), that is what I gave, yes. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 13 11:07:55 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Mar 2023 15:07:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35405 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pbjmE-0002KA-Um for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:07:55 -0400 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:52453) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pbjmD-0002Jv-5d for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:07:53 -0400 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.84.56.63]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103ABD.00000000640F3C49.00004935; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:07:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:50:30 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87h6vkbgot.fsf@localhost> <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <871qlze3g2.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <871qlze3g2.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, Gregory Heytings , Richard Stallman , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Ihor Radchenko [2023-03-08 17:12]: > My statement is based on a concrete person complaining about too many > inappropriate jokes. I also listed the specific jokes in question. How is possible to know if that person has no name? If that person need you as proxy to talk for them, maybe it is all in the end the joke to create a commotion, and finally laughs. How do we know that you are transmitting the emotion and feeling in same manner how it was intended? > The idea of asking general public has been rejected (see my earlier > message about running a poll). Po Lu argued that such a poll will > represent people overreacting to the jokes disproportionally (they > will tend to participate in the poll more). You have to step away from that computer and go into people, talk and make some fun. Come back. Or if not that, okay fine, though that sounds too robotic too me, and no fun. > So, I tried to fall back to the GNU policy. Which, IMHO should be > slightly clarified. The part about what "occasional joke" refers to. > We have. The previous https://emacssurvey.org/ generated over 1000 > replies. But see Po Lu's concern. 1000 replies on what? I cannot find anything related to jokes there. Your answer is not related. Get out of that room. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 13 11:07:58 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Mar 2023 15:07:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35408 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pbjmI-0002KK-AU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:07:58 -0400 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:49405) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pbjmE-0002Jx-4v for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:07:54 -0400 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.84.56.63]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103AC2.00000000640F3C4D.0000494C; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:07:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 18:01:27 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87mt5aj626.fsf@localhost> <87cz65hkk1.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cz5kfza6.fsf@localhost> <874jqszvpr.fsf@localhost> <87fsachktd.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87fsachktd.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: Ihor Radchenko , stefankangas@gmail.com, gregory@heytings.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors [2023-03-10 16:10]: > Remember the non-GNU anti-social edict that was being pushed about some > time around 3 years ago? And after all the wrongful accusations they did not take slightest responsibility to apologize or clarify the case. It was the virtual mob defamatory lynch. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 13 11:08:02 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Mar 2023 15:08:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35410 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pbjmL-0002Kb-NV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:08:02 -0400 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:52453) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pbjmI-0002Jv-1j for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:07:58 -0400 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.84.56.63]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103AD4.00000000640F3C51.0000495E; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:08:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 18:05:21 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <871qlyo9dl.fsf@gentoo.org> <87r0twho77.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r0twho77.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, Sam James , 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors [2023-03-10 13:57]: > Secondly, your change equates sex with something shameful and nasty, > like the development of proprietary software. That is not true. Thanks! Well said. It seems that we need some kind of special glasses to look through the matrix (as from the movie) into the truth of meanings. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. 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Tue, 5 Sep 2023 23:53:27 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000") References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2023 23:53:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual To: Ihor Radchenko Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325-done Cc: 61325-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8 > Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find > the style of these sections insulting. > > While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside > USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the > listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described > topic. This spawned a huge megathread where no clear consensus was to be found. Discussing this as a general proposition is unlikely to lead to any results at this point, so I'm closing this bug report. If this issue is to be revisited, I suggest it is done with patches that are both a) very small, and b) sent in separate bug reports. In particular, we are interested in fixing those places where there is only a joke, and no a clear explanation. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 06 03:10:06 2023 Received: (at 61325-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Sep 2023 07:10:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60671 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qdmfu-0002mf-7c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 03:10:06 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:51659) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qdmfr-0002lr-CF for 61325-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 03:10:04 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE0D4240028 for <61325-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 6 Sep 2023 09:09:55 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1693984195; bh=rQGPbBBNPDlBf7PPkIz8CNYS55Voot2yQWJllfhGKUA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=Pc5LgqRMqfn0GX/Hg+KLLhIb2Un6+7DsS55bFs2cHFYJPp8nI2RIy4CaUtqaKBt2N o4ZO41EsNpL2AjEybhG0LGYArCxsMF+rfYxho2DtNToxTZ/EzZrdV5pf4O22H/YxtL IohbYtTYbbh4Syiw/OSdOu1X50RYjeEyEchI9jMuosECuFL7uzlQ9YD8rDfUy8aTYj /X+a0hQsu95o9XhZGiqtDx091YuV02hXuYTZO0uHLrhp68YYo8uucajVub/TRyOhYo pAo5WsALjFSw108KyA3YJVnKTF+xX0o5pHIHJCputb9YedBwzukFVGVxbMK+2adl3V 8xQC4nn79NKjA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RgYR66KQrz9rxD; Wed, 6 Sep 2023 09:09:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual In-Reply-To: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 07:10:39 +0000 Message-ID: <87r0nbu68g.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325-done Cc: 61325-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > If this issue is to be revisited, I suggest it is done with patches that > are both > > a) very small, and > b) sent in separate bug reports. > > In particular, we are interested in fixing those places where there is > only a joke, and no a clear explanation. Agree. AFAIR, several patches have been proposed along the course of the discussion, including more atomic ones. If you can, may you please review them and see if they should be rejected/accepted. My vague memory tells me that at least one patch has been merged, but I often have hard time tracking which patches were accepted and which not - it is not always indicated in debbugs threads. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 06 03:30:53 2023 Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Sep 2023 07:30:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60688 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qdmzx-0003IG-Ki for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 03:30:53 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]:50349) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qdmzi-0003Hi-6e for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 03:30:47 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5007abb15e9so5596307e87.0 for <61325@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 00:30:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693985427; x=1694590227; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Wtu6vdt+/oqP8jKOyvDHSHiMhLJGhlAqSBrCG99JN+s=; b=gm4RASNf5aBtNau4CXRDm86jts9wjCpeqRHxREul9NZtm+dZsDtR+ed3KsUaTRObO8 ojLIDGAXtL5uHciK4MBpHuib6srglOuaLrUBVUC/pMv9qmSV/ebchVJk7hMSvxKJbKQi jSDznqiJNQjqNgaWjjk37EBww0KKiKhwIL2Mq/vfZtSxaxKShHEIaU3hGTkJX7YNo6PZ xvtbM3AuFSyI5s58U8ZopwhFVOjoyJdW2FaJ2dkhbYjeTSwkeedZsfOUeHsKRWbQiQDE xYeUHdooCK9YCZrq4hALvhwZ/+3WRfkXLLZ5vUopmc8QaAHqYiyZ432QXHBU5OtFOe7C WDiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693985427; x=1694590227; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Wtu6vdt+/oqP8jKOyvDHSHiMhLJGhlAqSBrCG99JN+s=; b=RX0d20QDJpJpInOxz1ZAvGlQJrtQdSnOVSCdGdQ09/9j3FI6qpO1pthfLHBB2ZlfSf kgiYf7Qjs83qsQ6rpEBNGWkv+8FkeJBdmbEn5DsDVpKfUk5T66Mz2jyefjL+1zQQ7nwf mYHgdgjMKUcpHKgDkwuehEKut4i6d5wmgW1vjs2Omfg2TtPefY9Bnx/3cCClZSVXLbn7 cR1WykpCxhOVkCNHwWSYcVanPmPTg3nL3LlBe2SxCwPdkwiJmyu5qVZq11Z2g5wC1uAM Id27eGHXj/6m+EzG9IdHF0zDjAe/hwKUFTw5BIk4U+l7G3lbABTpyiCqC6SlaEmE3pBC wfSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxOk5Q3aW/nMfjatz1tS/H7OWTTFpZtBvhwS60KLhR9gUjlBGPD 2ybA/vIe9v8q4U1dqMUu9E3VlLf49dAYpAJUZxs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEdXPozq/yQC/ZJWGnoXzF9+bUwzNLNjX8LoccB+gnN7wGhAo5Jg9FQH8slW4xDjd0pKX6IueNkyxQBJ+sKL28= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6557:0:b0:500:b553:c09e with SMTP id c23-20020a196557000000b00500b553c09emr1305770lfj.32.1693985427128; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 00:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 6 Sep 2023 00:30:26 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87r0nbu68g.fsf@localhost> References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87r0nbu68g.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2023 00:30:26 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual To: Ihor Radchenko Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 61325 Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > AFAIR, several patches have been proposed along the course of the > discussion, including more atomic ones. If you can, may you please > review them and see if they should be rejected/accepted. My vague memory > tells me that at least one patch has been merged, git log tells me that only b16965ef7e60 was installed. > but I often have hard time tracking which patches were accepted and > which not - it is not always indicated in debbugs threads. Indeed there is no such automatic marking, so it has to be done manually. From unknown Sun Jun 22 03:48:14 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2023 11:24:14 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator