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<61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167555694410732 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 00:30:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 00:29:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43661 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOStz-0002n2-Tq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 19:29:04 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:40249) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOStx-0002m8-DJ for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 19:29:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675556928; bh=yPBSdrMssMkABSm+i3JMraXvXCLV5ezMxu0o8jSnjLg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=cDQL0Hv4U05bMEJ2/mPlweYb+c1OIYvAmD1EYETEXipXKCLk+YVzxPBQNdWgKANTy 1XRyfmVL1HhZ9FsKCYGn9n4yRvPqpfAbLV43kKolyXaMNpgiYYpp1G3j6OorguIAGR 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bIWLwaOuTG99sRJDJtFjPb2twi4wGNsoD6G3HBk7Jv82x+NJ21rm4v9xWS+ewqnz+UnGxwHsL z9zr7Q== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Good catch! > > `(a \, b) returns (a . ) > > Looks like a bug to me. Isn't `(a \, b) just another read syntax for `(a . (\, b)), which is another syntax for `(a . ,b) ? With other words, I think `(a \, b) and `(a . ,b) are different read syntaxes for the same expression, equivalent to (cons 'a b). Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 03:31:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167556785128287 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 03:31:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 03:30:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43729 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOVjv-0007MB-2Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 22:30:51 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:19580) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOVjp-0007Lw-Mi for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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(\, b)), which is another syntax for > `(a . ,b) ? Well, yes. And that's no doubt why we get that. But (\, b) shouldn't be handled as ,b. I know that it is - in Elisp. I don't think it should be. To me, that spells (faulty) implementation leaking out. > With other words, I think `(a \, b) and `(a . ,b) are different read > syntaxes for the same expression, equivalent to (cons 'a b). Yes, but see above. I think \, should be read as the symbol whose print name is ",". To me, `(a \, b) should be treated like (a foo b): a list of 3 symbols - no evaluation. And `(a \,b) should be treated as a list of two symbols, whose print names are "a" and ",b". The symbol \, should be read as just a symbol. The same is not true of just an unescaped comma - outside a backquoted sexp that raises an error, and inside one it's handled specially as part of the backquote syntax. \, is not just , I don't have another Lisp interpreter, but I'm guessing that Common Lisp does what I expect. (For Common Lisp also, \ escapes a character.)=20 From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 04:33:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16755715701796 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 04:33:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 04:32:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43741 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOWht-0000Su-PQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 23:32:50 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:34325) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOWhr-0000Sd-N6 for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 23:32:48 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675571556; bh=Gq6bh/in8GcgrqJ6n7t2PAIfa9+C+/zRRrU1JZJNBAA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=a3xkLYpWkok4PDno/WMAcOl1cTciwhr6VChCyenyZd6Ra5OoPz42obbbBFm2/XxFa JwXwvg7acEsLA70B3nDuxXK1VQebk4LhUTCWB3Cn8h4t/bspJ9sWMD8+Co1UCtszrx J8Te5ju6pa5rjICNOii8CYWHC09t9zzveHQMEQAuzGh6U4OebRx33Q2puFwym9jRKm QoosjkHdjBX683g4zlnv6sq+fR13Ipvo/0yeKVY50Td170+Cb6zZ2enEJaov3Q1iyb 8iY2qrfTGWN6hQ1LIa10AYhfRtcHXIX2IrrLvn7+tGoAyi2b/SxvX7K8DQgkZwIaA/ HM9rFAwlGRWVw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N8Voj-1oc0aA3yXR-014XnZ; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:32:36 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 5 Feb 2023 03:30:40 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:32:34 +0100 Message-ID: <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:pQF0oTIBqXZUuVndWHEU8PXBhkbfxP9Ol1LcrPq9hzqtwoycgCi bWKHGqaZiN93SWfhyu07jupckaN9zO62tXbedhcgA78SyaIPSkQtc+CZV4vJqbMufjQe//B Q/hRDnCdPIyx7+O9lMIc9nUOwtIfynp8FZMCUtcN3YcI48K3c88caBANgF6osF6xAl820Es bFSLpl9h4Qbjb2ppSNyCg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:3vFK2uAehvo=;NRykYWOuVjmWTK/+twxNGjOlZht IzhnxLHzVKemdZIWJNwnicZv7YJIMvG8dYPrkDETV4pp56fOTAEjwOlEZD7Y60JkxC+NLc+IK X9Er/Q6vkPc04DmHPDmZ68Fjkt4wm5aTbb22YD0ezP5JA99SrWG4DGNW3gXeFePw2jgJOn+E/ 576S0uGZrTTucdsLEFU0S6KLMvyNq/PLxjz2wgByUXDWXU3jffEaOe+1n+mMtQ7OdHcuJd1S1 ZW7zP5jAbKQe7OqXexbtWgflw2lB6a8Inj691lvCk5d+HY9MUY32RSG1DZdYhAdc7chasA8aM l1TZhoxDKi7xhWn+xbQnKYOjagiAdmEky/+X8XnNjC8JVifXEyAYIRE9gU5M4x8q6okMxkB6o sT6p0qJC3BOmrkW+PA/r92t4SIfeFlxBvMLOcGzo/EzYL8HTexT66A4ijnebSTZNSbYWFGLgQ Ms6GgFcsjjrlSBjfAoRxt8sfWi5Y50gHq6zU24mocluFqHTZE+ZXqpnR2ZnEXz6YRg3IMEbQp YxEYwGtkEram/98Vq7+uefU1yX8zLFNHM44WQVMTP+mg0S3ZcANb4omemQ9bvYPporjxioNoB jc+BndaFONfyXg15QPKPzIS6+tbLRl4olrxl4Z/cbeAliMvY/IWUMW4OqghvuSvyFSuMelja4 YPXoGB1745Hk6FmUudgh7Wz/6K1txtNvtpMKIz3fxVMLr53LIZXhsYpwgOKgbppGkYvaVlqIR gEgkDBiT9LHUfQ39Djt5+wNnptjBy1fb/VouyHdx83AmvxdZUiiiTuA/ZrndMXj3Stm4G4i5x gEm6dV+oJekayzhlp9dewM8HWultke709zmKpD5QeUOJpm4uMfjht5IC8pyayb2c248V/NMB4 ACthXCgfBdZARiOuggzR8P+TWYGP7PaUt4A7upJYQKFnD2Z08r3WijPM3pxLhYTo9EEptiAHQ ZNNORw== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Yes, but see above. I think \, should be read > as the symbol whose print name is ",". That's the case. > To me, `(a \, b) should be treated like (a foo b): a list of 3 > symbols - no evaluation. No evaluation by backquote, you mean? Yes, you need to say `(a ,'\, b). Is this really different in other Lisps (isn't `,' a reader macro in Common Lisp)? > And `(a \,b) should be treated as a list of two symbols, whose print > names are "a" and ",b". That's also the case. I don't decide about this, but when we changed the semantics of `,' like you suggest, we will probably break a lot of code for no real gain (I think the semantics in Elisp clear and easy to understand), so this sounds like a very bad idea to me. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 04:56:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16755729244271 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 04:56:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 04:55:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43753 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOX3j-00016p-Tn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 23:55:24 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:45253) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOX3h-00016a-VG for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 23:55:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675572910; bh=8QGbo6a/VAXUlBMgl3F1UaJmgUcWesJs/DW/Jy+iT04=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=E9ycryX6OGykPj4BLrxpTf9BLv0LJAdwaMayXt/XzrmDvoHtBVaEvKb3CzZXd6wBU Qqm2dn0A8RirvuXxJkOIeijRWzNoJhVcELVpsTp3ASM8WU+rI9AmFi0tZ8s7Ju6dvR 3NaWwci5nnDRRPCrXm1ifDsde8oOG0N6AFpL+bfdT3AGnxzyj9mq6HetW1F2Qy7g5g +IrLFy1KvvoTamKVEkZn9+zcKYA+gKmX411jauf3qaAnXHuNu3RjA+GRs5Xjy47Rfu 4U5GUE/uNbdDH/14nyAB6n3RqMfB7KSeEcRKc6lPRH/IVWmLVPn+cMn+znAu7dWopT Nkz0EQxXShw6w== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MDMv4-1pVdmq1wgQ-00AT1C; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:55:10 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:32:34 +0100") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:55:09 +0100 Message-ID: <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4u2dCc93l7xt/Qk1uZbjAT5kSa+nfvC57AdQG8aTr99dhipLP1P pjO2xwNNj0jrA/icQ2E0ADt7s29SWAyYA9YNdG6uvzqq2hi3za2Usjn47t1UmROkgroLYlN iYUFK606VQ88MSuyJqjTXXI7L8zfQm4mQf09HRjEGisdaCaWO2CredVKZhhwcpDUfL9uIp7 SzdqemRYbFKFbIAu1BWDA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:6wyn5Z4leOU=;SpRan4msXGMQ8aUbSB5iWt6bDhs S3XVKAFZOCwJDHmlX+il8McrJkSgogsHrg1hYopWGkSKNYKobZwZNOhsPXWbgSeF1X1t1t+2x 2SQjjwJ50nwVjmioA/tfoFR/hRJuGZpwhI6WWYnFHsWfn2oWqU2nEyq7HKfqNuErl6iUkA6pm qYCazUiOgroZD4u0YzlepGlEhfidCJEOo95/JJm+Z/Kg4QyPBVB2nj0FnInduAIjbHvkTy2XL W/LKjD4ypTpSQnt+kRpj3Ex3RpUcG562XJcXpTMRZxuPq2i/0yBn+NRoV7R/U1C8hK+ba5lvX /4prFnrvjylJpWKOiK3fsXvrFQlTibXvCH459viQR+OaLo2xd/I84NJdseFPbTNHCojK+3UIa yk+iCt4JEMVMjZb2cKYB2FMxVuiRcaoljo9BW4cN9OxLz9Z89gLOJvqBvqYxeU98Hy5HC7NSH fqwxrQJQpFjNDlz8MOcrbGLffE5dZ0z/S2oyKsJMwvr59sAQwWAp5AdU6NB+HVqb+1WP36Pzq rPgvnqM69G/zAFnmFZB/YjzBYc1TvFjWAmgIOMvvxN7LObCUl43zv2FpTUjD9s3Pq3Kh2kILa KrEYOCOtfdHzW9xxIWRjawleNBZ9CnLam9DwNGCGfqPz+1/iDS5RtCJcWnRiidzSvSi7mFDly FOvknIq9odYGn8+gy+fHgVq0IysHjehmGMe2Mn1HsmU/zjJb5KSG97FQMjexvxqU8Vsorjaex LWNAE533bpfNW/8Ki+WSdeo/U7hHw+nA9ZQNBV9EjOnytDmckDCdib5Mn8vwVqOptkG5Swgyv 6vfSY0I7mCQcSEo5OZCqFU7gdIaFmUCURZlnqNhAdpAUHMHW15SuT7VBnFgO5VKcMTwlWUeWs 6EXJ1CO6kpX7mrAP1nA71qzw7IlZ/yVbR6Usu4cLfuJnWSPVdX4+srsxB6655lF3hrQ6HjYTb 99Jnwg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Michael Heerdegen writes: > No evaluation by backquote, you mean? Yes, you need to say `(a ,'\, b). > Is this really different in other Lisps (isn't `,' a reader macro in > Common Lisp)? I mean, what should the Elisp reader return when reading ",foo"? It must be some expression, and backquote will have to handle this expression differently than quote for the thing to work. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Jim Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 06:33:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen , Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167557873715357 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 06:33:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 06:32:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43940 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOYZV-0003zd-I2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 01:32:17 -0500 Received: from mail-pj1-f43.google.com ([209.85.216.43]:45813) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOYZT-0003zP-7u for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 01:32:16 -0500 Received: by mail-pj1-f43.google.com with SMTP id f15-20020a17090ac28f00b00230a32f0c9eso1005555pjt.4 for <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 22:32:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=O8OwdVIHu4TcAkIe1tXEv6fJkMd7I124PSN8b1RruqY=; b=DYX/TleQwNenG7LiK+9mDIerWHhzOSXtXdZnSpL9oR4q6tCAe5He/CKXTCFuSbDGa1 IrYH0GR/LuIkH2Uw/i6RCRoaAHB21GZKyn+NXhq+cMGtS+6AZ6jPPm5B/2KqGa4MHqWM 8i4qCQ9c2fSNNLXqTkYB3/bTTWZRTUhM3zS8NGnJTNxlgN/RdjwvjcRicaiNLRJv+hLf bwirs99Ewbo0AEqvIQWpTFIoEtb8x+NC0X4v0zuWsGTFvqJa6FDfOLHMMtzrJe0Z2G5w CN72VGPe78vxJxAt4VVWYYVz8hpGbVNGfnJKBdiwSOjD0xKiAy1X9zTp++WDB/hL5fa1 pBqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=O8OwdVIHu4TcAkIe1tXEv6fJkMd7I124PSN8b1RruqY=; b=vd+OBw0UbYXLtnhJfm779Guw/dvQCHj/DM0yXTEa8569yTbxtMqL0EerJMPO32byxA zRJW28MsUxlMGPjxyoW7aM32NsPgRq/NU6VkU3FLLgsStA82LKNRdccAjHQaU0QyfpuG 9Ck9ygwN6mS9L9eNn98Srak2am7g7eCz4V+9AlfNJT3Y9vbDMWgjsHc4q/5SSVgaXubY 108Muetr5338SDi081ibbllaXkdBeD7ZPOvdiH52DZFpi5BRzX32aEeuWMHzvI56ki9U YIVqcFdBTxhjPb9BzVeybyZgjWiP2WVN9hCG5KZ9C9uAEW9E6vXQu535cnuJAmA9J68s w+XQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWW89CdNWlMnE5Ta4cuOlMYTSqyE2J18eoAQ797VRucauX9A6bt MPeiA1/A0lhdVDkEqwXGeJI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/3ADNXkKJqLAbrqj3Two20CZRZA5HzovDaUrkfZd/Xt6tAs8EflT93HOujJOc2AsLJB7SXtg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:41c4:b0:198:f574:1d2c with SMTP id u4-20020a17090341c400b00198f5741d2cmr4123985ple.24.1675578729320; Sat, 04 Feb 2023 22:32:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com. [76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id g10-20020a170902868a00b00198e346c35dsm3922905plo.9.2023.02.04.22.32.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 04 Feb 2023 22:32:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 22:32:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> From: Jim Porter In-Reply-To: <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2/4/2023 8:32 PM, Michael Heerdegen wrote: > I don't decide about this, but when we changed the semantics of `,' like > you suggest, we will probably break a lot of code for no real gain (I > think the semantics in Elisp clear and easy to understand), so this > sounds like a very bad idea to me. What about emitting a warning? That shouldn't break anything, and it might catch some bugs. (I'm not sure if a warning is easy to add for this though...) From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 15:50:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167561214214271 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 15:50:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 15:49:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46303 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOhGH-0003hw-Ms for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 10:49:02 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:43568) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOhGF-0003hh-9c for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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I think \, should be > > read as the symbol whose print name is ",". >=20 > That's the case. Inside a backquote, an escaped comma's handled as if it were unescaped. That's the bug. =20 > > To me, `(a \, b) should be treated like > > (a foo b): a list of 3 symbols - no evaluation. >=20 > No evaluation by backquote, you mean? I mean that \, is not (should not be) the same as comma whether inside or outside a backquote. It is (should be) only an UNescaped comma that (1) when inside backquote introduces evaluation of what follows it and (2) raises an error when not inside a backquote. > Yes, you need to say `(a ,'\, b). When I said "no evaluation" I meant that \, shouldn't cause evaluation inside backquote.=20 I wasn't talking about evaluating the symbol \, itself - I'm not interested in doing that. I'm talking about the special interpretation of \, here, i.e., its being handled just like an UNescaped comma, instead of just like any other symbol (e.g. foo). > Is this really different in other Lisps=20 > (isn't `,' a reader macro in Common Lisp)? It may be, dunno, but I'd bet that Common Lisp treats unescaped comma differently from escaped comma. I meant that reading \, should be like reading foo, whether inside backquote or not. The only thing that should introduce evaluation within a backquote is an UNescaped comma. \, is not , Dunno about the reader macro question. (But I'm guessing that the overall difference here is how the CL reader works, yes.) > I don't decide about this, but when we changed > the semantics of `,' like you suggest, we will > probably break a lot of code for no real gain > (I think the semantics in Elisp clear and easy > to understand), so this sounds like a very bad > idea to me. I'm not saying the bug should be fixed. I have the same concern you express. Not that I really think that "a lot of code" will break (I don't), but that (1) some code might depend on this behavior and so break, and (more importantly) (2) it's likely that the new code will introduce other (new) backquote bugs. There be dragons. What I expect is that the bug will be closed as "wont-fix". This should nevertheless be seen as a (minor) bug. It should be noted somewhere (at least called out in code comments). Whether it's important enough to merit mention in the Elisp manual, I don't know. Normally it's not, but someone actually stumbling on this would need to check the code to discover it and would need to recognize that it's a bug by design. File backquote.el says clearly at the outset: ;; When the Lisp reader sees `(...), it generates ;; (\` (...)). ;; ;; When it sees ,... inside such a backquote form, ;; it generates (\, ...). ;; ;; For ,@... it generates (\,@ ...). It's _good_ that it says this. That's a pretty clear description of the implementation / design. (Except that the use of (...) and ... in what the reader sees doesn't make clear what those stand for. Backquote applies to unparenthesized sexps also.) It could also usefully say that this doesn't provide exactly the usual Lisp backquote behavior. It could call out what we're talking about: _escaped_ comma is (wrongly) treated as unescaped comma inside a backquote. That's the design, AFAICT, and that's not the traditional behavior (IIRC). From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 15:55:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167561244514707 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 15:55:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 15:54:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46307 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOhLA-0003p9-Id for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 10:54:04 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:34574) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOhL9-0003p1-1D for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Yes, you need > > to say `(a ,'\, b). > > Is this really different in other Lisps (isn't `,' a > > reader macro in Common Lisp)? I think I spoke to this in my previous msg today. Let me know, if you think not. > I mean, what should the Elisp reader return > when reading ",foo"? Dunno. (read ",foo") and (read ", foo" return (\, foo). Why? (Just because the current implementation of backquote depends on that?) (read "'foo") returns just 'foo - it doesn't return (quote foo). (read "`foo") returns `foo, not (backquote foo). (read "`,foo") returns `,foo. And (read "\\,foo") returns \,foo. Maybe (read ",foo") should rather return ",foo" - but of course the Lisp reader would need to behave accordingly. And maybe (read ", foo") should return ",". > It must be some expression, and backquote > will have to handle this expression differently > than quote for the thing to work. See above. Notice the error msg from (eval ',foo): Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-function \,) ,foo eval(,foo) (progn (eval ',foo)) Nothing in (normal) Lisp syntax shows the use of comma as a function. ,foo doesn't look like function-call syntax, does it? And here's the error from either (read ",") or (eval (read ",")): End of file during parsing Yes, an error should be reported in each case, but I think it should just say that comma is undefined outside of backquote. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 23:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167563906321646 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 23:18:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 23:17:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOoGU-0005d4-Rn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 18:17:43 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:45011) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOoGT-0005cq-3B for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 18:17:41 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675639047; bh=IGgSJgo40ZhLTkh+I9mp12YAEKmn5dDpTsGvGOKo5yc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=wbajMAMnHC6/R2V7zJ0ws5apaMNZdT+CUV1H+Xbx1Ulb3iEeu96MaTshcePKeku1X 2Zjh3pztpwe3LliVCqD2WAuC9U3p8GOj1rynYRH4N8OTxITqO0us/xVvJkUvB8TPQj k64rt3GWzEh7VE/Qa5F5ko085jv/mPFicAkOx7Q0GgNIvsgaj50+anOypgE82apSfp DCLnmu7cCK/ajclc4U61MUk6vweiisGjG0Xv3sLBNsVHvjq87zYGqXLGphLQuz4qtm 2p4R/v+lR3zzzv5tC1TIM1RoTHHgwKTo3PenmfEhmzuZOiVnVDPyUw273rHZ4QYE+I MbVrgyGgkM+Jg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M5QqN-1pQBhi3JJt-001aup; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:17:27 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 5 Feb 2023 15:48:54 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:17:24 +0100 Message-ID: <87k00vu2gr.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:muV2d07FPikVrMHN8SkhLswuJp/MCtbAIpqg7JlqAUmdw/XO5W0 wDKG7VQxSwOcZQrlevhyv/k6F2as9e5tcSsOrMWbA8ss2i7VDT7/uDZeAKnTV+2KEYoBFHd vj5sA5+6CZY6V0pbytJE6bZd5CyipTi/91yJoReCzmDo4U3IXsPYrzNnJolnm0UyoLW5zOX DOXj8gIMbV70yuBstNLwg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:GtK3zklOQRw=;RkAH6gKQEcTclegf+WSvVqNkSLD CXFxXHZ5z0tb4caO/EsaWf2T+nRw2Kwj8k3ppYVlUYiIU9W6xdh4Iug+QO1Ic1zOsTVv1WeeW VNSrCcIpkJAVBLbE7qg3TTvjxpn+SJv/5wd0chcUfd4KFtde77SSIBfXZ5yNMJZgBUS6stPuo H2HJod4VvGs88s5qWEnBCf0vQwSoiZ+sfrl1+aaEYwP34UK/3JskHdf064xhQGfMmuO4mZe+s qzXJ1GTeUflJ/rf7ynkcr6BtZERRtBmCRfpns02WzkDhQ4H6ErE7mWoJocgb+LDW9C4OZMYVw ro03zmn+nGEeESj4tM4p8ogsDQ9/oYAitLHvl3QvcHVZHnIrrC9PZKX5AIgtqg0rngbrYiBbT tzDGUeEFz9zuMqQOUlWiscepTKci4bOXvcT8YrbhlenybWUDXQZip1/uSxZBVw9MCzrEOxQGG dVPMsaC97pWqb3xR7RsJ77Hq172j7nMnM974Nz8w+5zZ2v9LE+p7FZldP31cgxAHKjhF6FAc+ zIh0f8DjkFD3HSH9v3TZYXPmGP34IOG7/iw08JcT4+VwhJbhfJYEOZO6n844l89S8VbGzaVot hgueTzNB4nYYERvW52hhPbrViQW9BGS2/ushBHy9TaZZgs4lpBbL/98Ymd2faaH4+ENONVKXu r5TbGWUCUZvAkO00lAJLibujshUwKALRaJSlS5MaN7nCFHpcc+mWtHQ2T89hJ6XO+fFmYPfBo maZFULp9Qq3RDndNlvv+63odgkewGLz07LtWeoxiqIi4e3N7bPG3lGdpc/P13Fr8LT6qX9omy VKAfrShvXfLrrYQIVKoDXwJrxeBX6cCM4u9DzXt1/Xwta3w8H7eZpyIpdypbbPkvbtQwMQWl2 58jWgO5AoWRh5LEkme+SAtnZ4tb/3K2atOXguavWhGeNmVKrlaze1jmBc3aEQGpdQrZHl+pr+ ho6iFw== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > > > Yes, but see above. I think \, should be > > > read as the symbol whose print name is ",". > > > > That's the case. > > Inside a backquote, an escaped comma's handled > as if it were unescaped. That's the bug. What do you mean by "escaped" and "unescaped" comma? "\," is the read syntax for the symbol named ",", is that what you mean by "escaped" comma? And the unescaped comma is the reader macro? Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 23:57:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167564137425390 (code B ref 61281); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 23:57:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2023 23:56:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46712 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOorm-0006bS-7j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 18:56:14 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:42157) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOork-0006bF-8O for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 18:56:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675641361; bh=P5Otmz4gRxRQFDx3FjDPdIT7WyOAl48BNa53gHHk4vA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=BBT858yBTa2T60eC7PzXAnfk5hRKTPdk5EHvo8zHDzGb9rMBGMxPEkUeqG46ZoymE wDo7YblbSDA9XilZoZlKvC/3YLppiBtByhD9abi3ZFV2QyeLRsMVCeNO33WzF93xd8 47X5nWdRC+r+rzzBgXc20rfORozc2I9Eu1+6Fc1s+jT3pxP95vspaxGFTEo6l7sdFs D/8+urSXXbUyR3dDbzpwSPkkHKUkQuGR21hdrze/qrR/UfzKXPJ+SiuyKtsToe5eN9 y9+bjnw6ESMNBK3bLmrpgU0xtVtsO7sDMnDTcblOmj+oEd3yxjNOCUj9bQfTBG2M8J DnGTGKbwQfPKg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MyvB8-1od3at04FW-00vz6G; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:56:01 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 5 Feb 2023 15:53:58 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:56:00 +0100 Message-ID: <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:S+ex5Kjaqj4UciDlzuMne+q395AfM/In5P2Hg4IYLQWAhJVn7Zx ZQRMZ3z5NEuhIknLVfRvdXfSKtcC54ZZZsIzQYrUGI2XZpTkxhlrtY60dufqhCn8lrnW9dG EU7Bj/c+RDFljL7b6syYXgoJVNZaOJWWk/x2RGbmjFqkQKZkIUU4IVWCCtxtu17iWE43f5Q /ANeYUlQt1gT55C0G9KVg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:c7RTP891OA0=;ShtVBZp+UAdNkkr8F3QquRNC+Ld +l5Z0SfSlYu/zusYpBkaQZomqp546SbxG4E/UXiSXFmxp+iMO2VbokPov5NkjQSof1Nw0j5aW iUfVDSe9W8Oo0MODjLzAdNnbrLXHRIf1qnsOemJqr0gLKR2+8EGlgl/k8kYmC42JvEmgKeG02 Puw2A2m2rnB/oMRZ8wCWlgMkZBWtBDOe/bNAODT/NbW8C+JQmb30CMUFwkZXjXBPMU6EK4jCJ 9hN3qkAbunBKKH7UZ4cw27AE5yRyqhhFe2XKomes75F3o3i5utG1R6TTnEbfuOJkNYXUT40En /Na2W44c8EYzzHb0e2SM9F/XpADEPWwzkZkcEoH8XV9GWjU7yxIfEzdIetIrUZg2niiDBINgk 2bq35HoALyxfRl/XhAF8t2ERaoxDkRcbJZlklmE8SNmin9uxoJ0OgPBYGu8ydl7prxuTNygeO MQR2YWaWQ2hCfZJ1m0iFEwO1TGDEBfcxWPUBDWv+2pkSdhR560EuKYEPT8GQbMQ9H25WWmUxI gmoM26TRk01iLx5akknpWSj0vo6cD8EvnSXM7mWNymmtQyK0ufKXYCAIV7BYAaQ+W3o3SiL1H eA8m+S5b6knrFCDagOqoJh2pn+HTWmEis/GVSiMEE38LJYiI5M6H8ssnchnPEHwLELFC+PKCu KsF7e9jjCWvWLEvpISi+4klef8hloEdYoIk3QodFtZkMKF2h/rwuxHldEbPec/RHRvOPEqrP9 dH9eTlHBnc/NYes8R2KOSssYGZfRvHOq+REYk/gpkpkgGrWVx/6y+Muak3X01VT37OCvRRLSM 9OHmwEFvDv66GioR4G+S1muUn9eZxO/v09Ck7iHTd4cHkDVQLtyKS+Locu/BUBKG+LsdXa3md XUydn0gxUhzxjaQJZeu28/LtqvzAVzxSfVK1FXA17XkXw2JQ8/YpNHibgz19asgodoyEImpbw /UQpOW8IxwjKOv0QITQp3lD0d0o= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Dunno. (read ",foo") and (read ", foo" return > (\, foo). Why? (Just because the current > implementation of backquote depends on that?) As I said: any other format would lead to the same "problem", no? Unless ",X" is something "meta" that has no reader-construct-less expansion at all. > (read "'foo") returns just 'foo - it doesn't > return (quote foo). (read "`foo") returns > `foo, not (backquote foo). (read "`,foo") > returns `,foo. You forget that the printer is able to produce this format. Try `car'. > Notice the error msg from (eval ',foo): > > Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-function \,) > ,foo > eval(,foo) > (progn (eval ',foo)) > > Nothing in (normal) Lisp syntax shows the use > of comma as a function. ,foo doesn't look > like function-call syntax, does it? Another side effect of ,X being equivalent to (\, X.). That's the only thing you need to remember. When you eval that, you should not be surprised that it's evaluated like ... Lisp evaluates things. > And here's the error from either (read ",") > or (eval (read ",")): > > End of file during parsing > > Yes, an error should be reported in each case, > but I think it should just say that comma is > undefined outside of backquote. S-exps are defined recursively. ",X" is read syntax of a valid s-exp, and I don't think we want to make the reader raise an error for it. But the reader expects an expression following the ",". And a single "," is _not_the read syntax of the symbol with the name "," (that is "\,": (symbol-name (read "\\,")) --> ","). So "End of file during parsing" is an appropriate message: no complete expression could be read, but something that looks like the start of an expression. Ok, so everything is about that you don't want that ,X and (\, X) are equivalent. All your arguments were of the kind "the implications are surprising". But you never answered the core question: what should ,X expand to instead that would not have any of these implications? Else all you say is that it's surprising when you lack knowledge. OTOH it seems not easy to find the information ,X == (\, X) somewhere. Is there a place where there is said something about the kind of expression the reader construct ,X produces? I didn't find anything in a rush. It should be explained, else this thing indeed can lead to surprises, as the one reported here. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:14:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Jim Porter Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167564240627264 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:14:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 00:13:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46773 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOp8P-00075g-LS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 19:13:25 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:57757) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOp8N-00075N-Kx for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 19:13:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675642387; bh=96LAQ+FgHugKpAZB7vavDq5ijorNQNwAZrm0o/tEeTY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=Y7ZsnmuZkfhoIsjb3pyxwhpQ3ek3jIDdrsh+xeduIxBNFq8tehnpsN+MGVsyDqh+m G8UJKGEnt61paJaMRb3Zt5JY1wHAgPv2RJobXs/M/MtCs1cLSjOJq23CoX32aNAeBj ogom0RLlBckNvbEJLNUbw3HjKV2Gk+XbtUp/7/8o7cH+ZcCO/WE4tARLlWSUQJkjO9 RS2czJN7rieF8xALUGpMxxDn1WOkukMC6qn+fgNM5G5bSEHUhFkye19LF2pAnqMDkb qq2NnTyjlFyCX9CW/ZcPFUNFl748EdC7Q1tKp9BIdBDQeUukzA5SihvXS+swd/Iuw6 VnIHUHgeljB3g== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mq184-1olxoG3a54-00n4lC; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:13:06 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Jim Porter's message of "Sat, 4 Feb 2023 22:32:08 -0800") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:13:05 +0100 Message-ID: <87bkm7tzvy.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Qdv+s/Etnltx/eMwiO5ykClRGpvKL523pWwB32Q+hh1xBLC6VGI 6bem6dW2KsrxeeNjHkW0rCJ1lXi2Le4uqqQoFBlcjxnrrEhHXX++1R4beavvH6Kp7RMlPbD 5TT6WuX9MA+HJOX1EYTgQhyIxGIh2VHCaeA/yXaEGoDuwodI/ZpKwSz4yRjMZ+0Vthkvg0C MpZiicyTPzHIwXPRIQASw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:mDnKbgQcBpw=;B8mn40v1MGalkkoY69fIZUcHXUi 1X1utsXog7GecilM+c30XWoLx4s1+ZMVw7SwzobqLgPfqwpenxwfBkWE4AMUZvLynvBGPFKkH JQKVcC/+LwjX3qujND8eLG3i1BZ8RJy8aJKv5Ldpf+VmmNFMhZkFFWVOgd8cbHUd4bLTgYqTZ a3AmHdqOEd0aXiBdm0M4ji5zzCJcqF767uFpKGfH1pNs1+iy5Q+GdxudtDarMkQ7HexQBCxm6 nBv71yBflmArkIl8h+FFn+Pk8yx6tN4ou6FvEJK6+UFkuPaqUlfE6hAfWk9TDQoBbuEyKwSAG eoh+JH5pkuSdIOFxWruu5/H75eDfseECEwSt2Y/Yqqif090w0VI7TLE5sBer2j/DnB1i4FohI trbg7rd1YrioxRSeev/ljHBwBiMKRGxYtQ5VtciwqEvWFkv+mJMREBzWrb24gj8TPZsve8YpB 45lRPeULZGa/582WlUuAC0xCRqpSODR5dF/otV7qgnAm6Df1GG05cpCzW88pZH4oSv9OVucFh XS4tbVdMyY/aS3BKIgI8PoYuQPivEwENeWhjEL9tE4W9B5l2rEO3h4hIBE/OUXL7dzbjE3FH2 edoPkOhLC6uCJ7/p/PVuaYMnNb98ecAwn1mWAKec/9imHNglyViwfqmM9ilTS1C+OfR3ra7Ze JOpc33l1mZKehHgVDSJAUD02MJj5ko3A4rn1O39txC3s1Axbfrd+BlrOWtrF/xCJ3d98fzBin wZEB4Qh3aUNmIJg8yZ0U8vl+n48xhr3zuBqtGZfAb+Fn4dHF9uPHNdZGdq0aEeuHBcme7PP1g ficQxPIGIJWUYIP+7aQTzNEUxtk/BBCFs3I4cHFW/b6V4Wce1h2TkspDK1ETGeQLKhul5rzA+ b79LO7w28P+hszAUOtkNRNORyNCqsj0u/Ulcs/zxUJtmKJp9OGAB5/B3IIQE2ALK8+TXoP624 BTRqCw== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Jim Porter writes: > What about emitting a warning? That shouldn't break anything, and it > might catch some bugs. (I'm not sure if a warning is easy to add for > this though...) You mean the reader should emit a warning? Note that at least expressions printed by Emacs itself might be printed like this, e.g. (nth 1 '`(a . ,b)) ==> (a \, b) so you would get warnings for automatically generated code. OTOH, is it that likely that people write something like the above by accident? If the symbol "," (with read syntax "\,") appears outside backquote or pcase patterns at a place where it is funcalled or referenced as a variable you already get a compiler warning. And are we sure that nobody ever wants to use that syntax by purpose? BTW, if you are working with backquote expressions a lot you are seeing such commas in apparently "normal" (undotted) lists regularly (because the printer seems to prefer that syntax over using a dotted list, like in the above example). It surprises you only once or twice. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:20:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Jim Porter Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16756427514371 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:20:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 00:19:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46778 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOpDz-00018R-DL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 19:19:11 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:40687) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOpDx-00018D-SK for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 19:19:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675642735; bh=tXCuYDy77UpkyuiDoyYitXgiiYhoiQAdH2nh4UdlffE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=kbrJB0H3TvXE+mpSJcxFy0cfTuEyV0iFEno/TMWhhhOfJVkPUNpYOxaMvTHshgTgn 4aWy1fI4Exxzt0Wo0kw1TdyNJB44qO4x0sC79UIDFGzYt6NlGhXPU8NNAdtTSb+ieV 7z396R9vj8/nRJlN9hupPQsxD3TAI40kQOJwZG/xLPO3iUCH4VAle/mm7e80cpnRW+ 9dfnHtU92oclbzDhnieAaJQsGNpPmHj/KjG6P8iZkkONA6zAeV+6tuwFFxlinOZDA6 uf39hKiPmXpbph+ARGFyJrZJ9PXrRJNqQgVAYhZIrOqD3OJiJew3itidWb+BwhF9NC R8n7Wlh1rfioA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MpU1u-1ooimJ03ye-00prLz; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:18:55 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87bkm7tzvy.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:13:05 +0100") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <87bkm7tzvy.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:18:54 +0100 Message-ID: <877cwvtzm9.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:is7gUCBzX43MI45cRnTIEjyEoRUZb8FnxBCU6kOr2P97TV5oqRE z7lJ6964iXu6A1nl4jEmXsQrU0x/OxVWtftfZzJuWFaZ6tvZusmwf7QX1ppmaFPIW/qKuFu 8okYOKB5PUan4UlZUATkAyZPKFVQBcUGcgqnvlRZbPKJAdsQUpdoeZ2YT9JhwP4Wy+1ZTKm adfHmR5U2xmy2EltHKg2Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:CK3STB0A4qc=;EbE1wdZJxcBF6GPjrAmHMdpscFw Ba9OevA3uGViPMFHcGSMu0xAf8k1llig3c8x7AObopZeCmBo5MTkch0TSU/U17YaS0l6yteB9 H0mh29y+zLfcJh/RlNybrAJk7h+L3A9TLObm9oDAxd6lSPFGCOELYYrug/oNsv+j9fu1DWqHg pYFPoyCFhLYXWd+hKHy9lfpBpvg3QP3vl2eJKifRlkDeNS/KQsbdg6h3EwsO0MZDQQrR7/l/w LZ8fGini8wS+oLNQJ0h/IibXIYg5oiP1cEG1S1GRU6iCkSAlBg87eb24IpyRUEYyhGy2Rztd2 0ALOoeOarM4pE4tJS81mkPYEVaSa0T1dHWHt9X/v6SIC+GcA9ATOL6OqIqwPcliE+4BSsj1uU ifmHV7aF5qBEKGBtg7P4sRvFj3ivDa0uc7+MT4FJVEPB4kENm2uel6d7vDOSW3udVLvsIAG7F HT5WeIdErFJvQ/P/q+Xxw7CJZihQoD90sPZ0jGSQXJvlRBgxM/9koNabGM4C/oFTSLWaDwASO UfBu3gAxr4YXvnfKZQP06Kjzn/FNSIF8tK4Q5Nbmg6IocK/b5+NKhgVK9VdPupBkFODtT2ZjS z28RJhV7HBhDy6wuq8qG9EK1ucffOIuJPEnUVzQGD89JjpJZu0RkMjroAWrgEH2Pg3+e1jVtW 5+S8IXwycz7bSezUNq93nShU5f2/mdKtW1vtcKP1S8T+8lnppIf3tr/HxiBWdxm3e1YK5ltr9 tszC4nmOrcHU3fjWRVm5ujjVJaCVDJi+ozL/LdQoWdLYowpKki6TakL3eA3WmJUkD5Q8LAoOl 4memPSpbie8aWlr7Y+LrSfjEcRaebigX6zmnCyOX5/CWkCAX4KYr63zLhbq+njJrgnStGXdeV mmm2or4mbk8kz1dfoJyPCO2woStepJcQTw/9sOrsCGqC5XE+vIX5bdLpotWe4q7Wn+uP0yu+/ RhzsFw== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Michael Heerdegen writes: > You mean the reader should emit a warning? Note that at least > expressions printed by Emacs itself might be printed like this, e.g. > > (nth 1 '`(a . ,b)) ==> (a \, b) > > so you would get warnings for automatically generated code. An example is even in the original report. Maybe the printer could be taught to print (... . ,X) in this form instead of (... \, X). Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Jim Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16756461009660 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 01:15:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46869 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOq5z-0002Vj-Sn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 20:15:00 -0500 Received: from mail-pj1-f49.google.com ([209.85.216.49]:56108) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOq5z-0002VX-04 for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 20:14:59 -0500 Received: by mail-pj1-f49.google.com with SMTP id d2so6516041pjd.5 for <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 17:14:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5B1dkoREDE7VUYHV0++11e7/7y2i4UqYL0HaZY5h0hU=; b=Rx4tBfmt1YShLCXoo+Zp+h+wF25EUAmAjr0w8AEVSwfeFwTOCkpdvsyl+o/VnDIMCb xueOhBpJImpJ4UHmXgomlK147fw84mJfNS/Pa6divYNnIG84j8X5OIvLwuvgT+6fY/t5 cRNnCE49iBEoHtxhSW5eE0GSH6LYRVmUSEZhioyOZww7zaZpqoaNg67VSt3CQAxU6x7Z N8CQ7xPi+HG0RBu6o35HfiW2V2/rc04SeChPww1utUtHMH6Q8klltw38A8B8Y8GmTPY2 TDuwILqDlrdFpuP/TywMNRioFxEATQmGVQx3AIplnDj5t7Eec40KuPiNiEG/buu43pOu 6COA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5B1dkoREDE7VUYHV0++11e7/7y2i4UqYL0HaZY5h0hU=; b=i7SNfBOi83rq4Bc4VOOFIyo8ecgndp5rGqUItsULmdi35hdx4L2qsSMDl+LBB+diG4 VnhiM5Fwel5GYJpMoljJEEUKWgfwlR+98qtM23AMrL6CvJI2rrPmtEUYxV5O37+tjj1a NE91s5VFQOsNNPNleCU2DPKRnDsWoFY2C7k3duu7WtUcLvb5yvxO7Qiz3RSfWa57mSQg MgrAma8UDvLoFVBDPEjlZ0MD1SPGqwBHtF19VjaNiqEtqUJm/2cjx4Bfoz5MujolzHp0 xTG6lvX/i5MFKLBJYFlfcoD9CWZoNNAhgBkDMyXqNcHavqoAeDE8cngXdmep1N9sQwDy 2bYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXgDXiuNF3YnqmVoG2T0bql9wUA7y71+FYLrcpTF9l8vUOu6JPT cuwwFaBuWWdHwuxFAL3Jgr0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+xHvJCvv3WWSIIok+bp0BbjRGeVJaqSqDe7SWrOJ6qG2n5wefug/iKXLiRu5O9UowZercofw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:e18c:b0:bd:8b67:4e6b with SMTP id ks12-20020a056a20e18c00b000bd8b674e6bmr19333136pzb.19.1675646093258; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 17:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com. [76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id c124-20020a633582000000b004e63aa44474sm5114322pga.33.2023.02.05.17.14.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 Feb 2023 17:14:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2023 17:14:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <87bkm7tzvy.fsf@web.de> <877cwvtzm9.fsf@web.de> From: Jim Porter In-Reply-To: <877cwvtzm9.fsf@web.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2/5/2023 4:18 PM, Michael Heerdegen wrote: > Michael Heerdegen writes: > >> You mean the reader should emit a warning? Note that at least >> expressions printed by Emacs itself might be printed like this, e.g. >> >> (nth 1 '`(a . ,b)) ==> (a \, b) >> >> so you would get warnings for automatically generated code. > > An example is even in the original report. Well, that's what I get for trying to send a message shortly before going to sleep. > Maybe the printer could be taught to print (... . ,X) in this form > instead of (... \, X). This would probably be nice though (assuming it's sufficiently easy). The current printing form would likely confuse a novice programmer if they encountered it. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:50:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167564818213094 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 01:50:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 01:49:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46920 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOqda-0003P8-1L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 20:49:42 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:29646) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOqdX-0003Oz-84 for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 397205e6-8f8c-4843-7704-08db07e46508 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Feb 2023 01:49:33.1423 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Uw9u7v7ZfsQMToQutO982Qk1G8bVK2Bz8JeHGgw/cj2fheT87U5/Zdt5sx8IhqRQmnIcaJ30HCnasonXsuBy9Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO1PR10MB4804 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.219,Aquarius:18.0.930,Hydra:6.0.562,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2023-02-06_02,2023-02-03_01,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=544 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2212070000 definitions=main-2302060016 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: oVHKou45IuSrbvvOWIjV08Kx8GyOAg6o X-Proofpoint-GUID: oVHKou45IuSrbvvOWIjV08Kx8GyOAg6o X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) (Michael, I started to reply to your message by explaining what I meant by escaping and unescaping, but I think you do know what I have in mind.) I guess an argument can be made that there's no bug here. I don't think that's right, but I can see an argument for it. Outside backquote (and outside a string etc.) you need to escape a comma: "\,". Otherwise, an error is raised. Escaping it means it's read as part of a symbol name. Comma is special in this way. And an escaped comma read on its own produces the symbol named ",". It's the need to escape a comma normally that makes me think that the same kind of escaping should remove the special behavior that comma has inside backquote, and just have it be treated by the reader as a symbol there. For characters other than comma, which don't raise an error without escaping generally, a backslash (aside from particular contexts) generally is a no-op: \X is the same as X for a character X. Because of that, you could make an argument that that's what should happen for comma inside backquote: a backslash to escape it should have no effect. That's clearly what _is_ happening, in any case. I don't think that's the most logical behavior, because comma in Lisp otherwise behaves so differently if escaped or not (just read as a symbol-constituent char when escaped). And not the best behavior, because it makes it impossible to use a symbol named "," within a backquote, without having it get the special backquote comma behavior. You can't remove the special behavior that backquote gives it. Normally, the special behavior of any char can be removed, to include it in a symbol name, including to use it alone as a symbol name. In particular, note that @ doesn't have the same problem that comma has. You can remove its special meaning there, to make it just be read as a symbol, by backslash-escaping it: (setq \@ '(3 4)) (setq foo '(4 5)) `(a ,\@ foo) ; =3D=3D> (a (3 4) foo) `(a ,@ foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) If @ behaved like comma here, then both of those backquote sexps would result in (a 4 5). Likewise period - behaves as I would expect: backslash-escaping it removes its special backquote behavior. (setq \. '(1 2)) `(a . ,foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) `(a \. ,foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \. (4 5)) If period behaved as comma does then both of those backquote sexps would result in (a 4 5). Of course, there's no crying _need_ to use symbols named ".", "@" and "," as variables, functions, etc. inside a backquote. But why not, and why not be consistent among all such special chars? From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 02:27:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167565041416630 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 02:27:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 02:26:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47008 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOrDa-0004KA-7i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 21:26:54 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:29494) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOrDX-0004Jy-DY for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 79870ebf-7fd6-411e-fcce-08db07e998a7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Feb 2023 02:26:47.2821 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: HJzHLmYjG8ZoxrkZphW5lZBcBmyUBoceis++t9HvlqzWm5ivRuNHnwa5RbdUKSsEJMGXYEzuDDtrbVUnYBDF/g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PH7PR10MB6202 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.219,Aquarius:18.0.930,Hydra:6.0.562,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2023-02-06_02,2023-02-03_01,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=608 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2212070000 definitions=main-2302060020 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 7q1998kf6iP3q8fAiYQEsHygG4i2cHbk X-Proofpoint-GUID: 7q1998kf6iP3q8fAiYQEsHygG4i2cHbk X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Notice the error msg from (eval ',foo): > > > > Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-function \,) > > ,foo > > eval(,foo) > > (progn (eval ',foo)) > > > > Nothing in (normal) Lisp syntax shows the use > > of comma as a function. ,foo doesn't look > > like function-call syntax, does it? >=20 > Another side effect of ,X being equivalent to (\, X.). Yes, that's what I was saying. > That's the only thing you need to remember. I think you're making a virtue out of necessity. ;-) Yes, that's the way comma is implemented inside backquote in Elisp. So yes, just remember that implementation factoid. =20 > > And here's the error from either (read ",") > > or (eval (read ",")): > > > > End of file during parsing > > > > Yes, an error should be reported in each case, > > but I think it should just say that comma is > > undefined outside of backquote. >=20 > S-exps are defined recursively. ",X" is read > syntax of a valid s-exp, That it is so is only because Elisp implements it as that particular read macro. And the question is about "\,", not ",". (setq ,X 42) ; =3D> 42 (setq \,X 42) ; =3D> (wrong-type-argument symbolp (\, X)) > Ok, so everything is about that you don't want > that ,X and (\, X) are equivalent. You can say that, I suppose. I'd instead say that it's about being able to escape a comma inside a backquote - just like elsewhere, so it's just treated like a symbol character, even in the case where it's the only char in the symbol name. (I'd be interested in what the case is in Common Lisp, including what a typical implementation is.) > All your arguments were of the kind "the implications are > surprising". But you never answered the core question: what should ,X > expand to instead that would not have any of these implications? Else > all you say is that it's surprising when you lack knowledge. If you say so. I haven't said anything about the implementation: what "," should expand to. I'd say that if unescaped its behavior should be to do what it does now. (FWIW, I don't think I said that the behavior or their implications are surprising. But yes, I didn't expect "\," to not escape out of the backquote handling of ",". I didn't expect comma to be any different from period or @.) The question is whether \, and , should have the same behavior. Certainly \z and z have the same behavior. But character z has no special behavior inside a backquote. \@ and @ don't have the same behavior inside a backquote. And neither do \. and . -- only \, and , have the same behavior. To me, that's just an implementation/design thing, not something normal or inevitable. Not a big deal, not the end of the world. I minor unfortunate thing (gotcha). > OTOH it seems not easy to find the information ,X =3D=3D (\, X) somewhere= . > Is there a place where there is said something about the kind of > expression the reader construct ,X produces? I didn't find anything in > a rush. It should be explained, else this thing indeed can lead to > surprises, as the one reported here. I pointed to the comments in the code. They tell the story. But I don't think there's any such explanation/description in the doc. Normally we wouldn't need anything like that -- we'd consider that to be just implementation/plumbing. But in this case it seems that users need to know the implementation if they're really to understand the behavior. But only if they need to use a symbol named "," normally inside backquote -- a rare case, surely. Again, the bug is certainly a tiny corner case. It's not like users can't use backquote syntax without knowing this aspect of the implementation. It's not elegant, but it works pretty well. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 03:04:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167565261420309 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 03:04:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 03:03:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47034 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOrn4-0005HV-B3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 22:03:34 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:50893) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOrn2-0005HH-H8 for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 22:03:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675652599; bh=pLp7GlLF9f597EP875VM8axQzETJWsDXd7LsElgQO70=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=Qv9FRB/XwecX1xdpUaj+vH4smtCgnOPBEfB7mWoIevzbN8PfhcGAbTOoYDUIGWpH8 zqezQ5SlSA3tj9vKQdT7iucf6TglcSVs7O6r5l87F+D/7rIlw2o/PBu3ivv1v3BaUY kqH4pnxEvvwMq6dlYrA13yJaU2cw5G+VAE3FEtyYbrE2bVSpMGX6syErWVrkDeX6Kr biOQnflzYG5wZskRFkDN/s+yBPf6YtcDrgLY/idsG6q4YTOoi2V5Nqz7AChwR9Dquv LSzmnj5zXSBbPOTeyyhXwJqHLrmD33bGgjs2Na5WHO0Cf6mU8Xp/egdDHzE3TJFKR5 rmj+CKFANo+iA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MXoYS-1p64J111lU-00YAgB; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 04:03:19 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 6 Feb 2023 02:26:47 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 04:03:18 +0100 Message-ID: <87ttzzsdft.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:WjV3Lqrz3eZAdZU1W4o5a8k1SiGmjmrnnfD6tUu6bVlYFPh1XOd EHJpBkooZ0M8D6xbBQ49NVNhqjUuBvsG7HQAvSfauvf7GsJCB41DeKPKUZtpJ0918yzjKwS dcBUEO/JcapRU3Eoo2XXqnc54Np7DtGCyZzN04nQMVeD0/NDVzZQmJkfowbSCd66h4YcByO +uxVvAsIhfoZZRh51GCUg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:UoaITIQQhWU=;ZxbxL9g5QLeJAmeTSGlcdnd3mre y5ioKcOUziE6xH8N+dvtYDVmNRhUdHmjjEa7/rYfqJ2AcZ2wXbltQrLXxURd3APyLqxYAuoeu BvZcOEzC01JpMPxSipRKZS9AK4c2iuPmYhAK7T5pkX2QkfUPZt1DWjhq/K3eoVvjnCKTPFTcE FaX//HmBvCIhT7KtJOMhsUAHbINotPvbsIhNTub142AxIC44o6Nks98ACPMLf2PxRefdvCqSa Nc2GWhbflC3Lw/wFdWrHADAXXSXOWoQufJAX8DlFxAc+dYx6fngvyohMj0kHaPLKTsbIxQRfF vcAbwuPPpE/CxUdjAlpZ2GgElyOkI8if4UmRkXJdl55ZMvGERLmIxx6+WSTKYlMhzzGJ+pObg cdNXag+ADgaqiCdWz4VxDu9ERboHGRzSF+G06xPkqSbR3/ymLu6QRn1UocvHBvt8cqJLzwwwH tPr2wTyAZihG1kceB7yfs81SDVzhwsE7QYeu9oz1Idlbm4hB2FoUozpXcxEBKmFUjLML9v+iE 3wKGNIDmJCYU6hV2AD7ifZfYEVx4U10Vd6zcPw8QrEDguMQxdUPkU1gmv11fLr/eeB3AYKKeB JVXTfrhC4q4rzrSBsB4FOCDDlvXq/gOC2a5xA2PxOH1CH5PoTqTLAlpMJ7VtlK4REUBa6ey8B k3bYIhjuY+Igaeo6+FzX4GbapeHfl/Q+pd8Wg+CBQvCfjW83FgggRg1+FqrDz7lhFalQ2qlHN DCUei/xPU2a15oDz7pybxj4Zbdj4jS6cSFq6zZgEdvEaoNHZ9LU/ru1VvIpXrKypmxnWB7JTv dLsViMk4k22dUwumM7prLWyec6OY/b0/0Pb24/ZvpVN+9xI3M86e6n78VB395eHRIqMH+vr2t sKGPyOpKpAtNH+UhAs7yW905o+v0MjtH5PP1wrbrNMkO21TyDEiP7OlX9c81FQwElZmUo14DU Bk5mYbSDgLj7Ah7uVbEJ5duFnsQ= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > And the question is about "\,", not ",". > > (setq ,X 42) ; => 42 > (setq \,X 42) ; => (wrong-type-argument symbolp (\, X)) The other way round. "\,X" is interpreted as symbol, just as "\,". What's the question about "\,"? > (I'd be interested in what the case is in Common > Lisp, including what a typical implementation is.) AFAIU, there are different implementations. I tested two random CL and two random scheme interpreters. Of those 4, 3 expanded ,X --> (unquote X), and in one case ,X was read as an atomic expression. > The question is whether \, and , should have the > same behavior. Certainly \z and z have the same > behavior. But character z has no special behavior > inside a backquote. I think the necessity to escape the comma to get the symbol has been introduced to avoid ambiguities with uses of the reader macro. > \@ and @ don't have the same behavior inside a > backquote. And neither do \. and . -- only \, > and , have the same behavior. To me, that's just > an implementation/design thing, not something > normal or inevitable. Not a big deal, not the > end of the world. I minor unfortunate thing > (gotcha). In any case, much too late to change it. > I pointed to the comments in the code. They tell the story. But I > don't think there's any such explanation/description in the doc. Yes, it would be good to add something. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 03:50:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167565535224698 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 03:50:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 03:49:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47063 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOsVE-0006QH-8D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 22:49:12 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:15952) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOsVB-0006Q6-D4 for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 075a0158-ac37-4bc6-a1e6-08db07f51714 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Feb 2023 03:49:03.8510 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: SylBO2du7yyaHaU1yIgXaQuoNwUanLy0gZulEsNFMjNrDMRO9SlTMkAdfriJIBmauNJ2aWBptjNGJuH9kKn9fQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO1PR10MB4433 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.219,Aquarius:18.0.930,Hydra:6.0.562,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2023-02-06_02,2023-02-03_01,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=963 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2212070000 definitions=main-2302060033 X-Proofpoint-GUID: xvHvBBoU_wEx6FS-5k3RGSp-1dNGNB-X X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: xvHvBBoU_wEx6FS-5k3RGSp-1dNGNB-X X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > And the question is about "\,", not ",". > > > > (setq ,X 42) ; =3D> 42 > > (setq \,X 42) ; =3D> (wrong-type-argument symbolp (\, X)) >=20 > The other way round. Yes, I accidentally reversed the comments. Thx. > "\,X" is interpreted as symbol, just as "\,". Yes, backslash escapes the special meaning of comma -- but only outside backquote. Unescaped comma by itself is not interpreted as a symbol inside backquote or outside it. And leaving aside the X: (setq , 42) ; =3D> (wrong-number-of-arguments setq 1) ; from expansion to (setq (\, 42)) (setq \, 42) ; =3D> 42 Comma is special in raising an error outside backquote. But there, escaping it makes it just symbol syntax. Not so inside backquote: there, escaping it has no effect -- "\," and "," behave the same inside backquote. > What's the question about "\,"? Why is it equivalent to "," inside backquote? > > (I'd be interested in what the case is in Common > > Lisp, including what a typical implementation is.) >=20 > AFAIU, there are different implementations. I tested two random CL and > two random scheme interpreters. Of those 4, 3 expanded > ,X --> (unquote X), and in one case ,X was read as an atomic expression. Sorry, I don't know what that means. How is "\," syntax treated inside backquote in those interpreters? If different CLs have different behavior in this regard, then I wonder what the spec says about it (if anything). I didn't notice anything. > > The question is whether \, and , should have the > > same behavior. Certainly \z and z have the same > > behavior. But character z has no special behavior > > inside a backquote. >=20 > I think the necessity to escape the comma to get the symbol has been > introduced to avoid ambiguities with uses of the reader macro. Not sure what you mean. I'd think it's to give you a way to use comma in a symbol name. Same as for the other chars you need to escape for that, such as "(". Escaping a comma outside backquote works, to give you symbol syntax, but that doesn't work inside backquote? Why doesn't it? I don't mean "why" in terms of "how so". I mean why _should_ that be the case? Is there a good reason for this behavior (in terms of useful behavior, not in terms of implementation)? I don't see any, so far. > > \@ and @ don't have the same behavior inside a > > backquote. And neither do \. and . -- only \, > > and , have the same behavior. > > > > To me, that's just an implementation/design > > thing, not something normal or inevitable. > > Not a big deal, not the end of the world. > > [A] minor unfortunate thing (gotcha). >=20 > In any case, much too late to change it. >=20 > > I pointed to the comments in the code. They tell the story. But I > > don't think there's any such explanation/description in the doc. >=20 > Yes, it would be good to add something. Glad we agree on something. ;-) From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 04:12:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Xie Shynur Cc: 61281@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167565667626897 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 04:12:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 04:11:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47095 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOsqZ-0006zl-Ue for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 23:11:16 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:45119) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOsqX-0006zV-Du for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 23:11:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675656664; bh=Tf6li1RRraHLoSk9jF+80FTxMCxDGzP0SQdKIsgt3ss=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=r6BHu9e+q0x777ptfvQD2AGR/xxN2nEfh452yc5of2qghCybbJy/v7oFpuMyJpuUP 5jUaW948Mx3tHLu+y6mu2PVDxoJzSZ8Ij8erOL4Ix/JcS422MF9HgBmQCZqeqy/6/1 MjY+Ysneb3l3eyiv4js5x3fRcVckuzUIjDUBQAMpDEnCEarBmFN8OQ1+DhUCOY88Rh Psv2UKhP0+epGOKtorJpV5MH+FEo84RjDv4FgbqxHcEPeKKvH8Cgrpk+zyb2OJky90 Ql3g0nm/0pDu/zhBaY/hCIuS3ZftXudFxcOei6agcvVaTAU6AXOWf5FuCoJ38gQDuS LHhsBnLr0dyBQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N1d3k-1oRVpo2nDE-0121Ij; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:11:04 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Xie Shynur's message of "Sat, 4 Feb 2023 23:23:00 +0000") References: Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:11:04 +0100 Message-ID: <87ilgfsaav.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ryhycDuiODxlqQax5XYEj+4WFDi1ZvunIC5N/HheZMxoLApGICb qWjDHpPi/U41TqExKAdCHj5x7x8E4hQuMQXgWKo95eijbNyu40tN729f05UIWB4IyQtP6SN 3K5vZBBaRmKuJqcdsE7ORSRgpgftEHhGD+WMPrLPz86Lyvuj2/QlLpMd6FvEr+qXZsZm/da m7YjvusRPuu4HdLcEUDuw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:lJItTUntGoQ=;8xiqJkB0Sb92SNk4TKfkesN2NLs U36eOxRVLXifvsQThuMJpcmTqUo2qD1XfrmRxLxfoWMhDbeB53AiNxohWjZ68b3m4yNkDNK9k 7xQm1M0uugtWIFtPirFJIpzT64/+GwH5rjewmczCotx7gl7gGZmoJuwRDlxRhEAT13VTTk0xy 9qYQ63B9WJk6ffPFexrfH9na0cPmZEdWcYJOqEg4xRBpgN8QzDgvqK8E3BbXo0FAaZwmxB+N+ uop1NZzODRxnmT/Cwfkw08SDmHZGOTA/kBUlSEAW6+tdB/jytaQN3nD5i/w4DXyVydVnw7Xem b0MFUKHuMJYbe9qxuCCs5ZknpiXk88RSg9NfABcnPdITr433wJKEod5wetvLqVlHij2OMzqSM oykdc4k3e01XX61kgQzoWe0dnbL6mpr5rddlv0G3ifdZ8gR6wPWMXbe0Iyr23Jai+9Ue3eiUS E8yI0qoJ7sE7if3FjEpLM4MFHIKFJIjUcwXtH9ccZiFR3Kytu9FOG5yC3hX1SUGZCi/X/pObf yIpDwTZn2b/kCdYS/lNKis9RM0qeGn21tq1jJgNtZUPPq8HoSzWggq8bILkeIkhU5Vo8kWUq3 3rMFDSsrW98nr6PXCyoq/r88ynpqY2TYgygsNVzbOTNK8RctQvZJMP4OeaDF2cKPdzt/5xIuG tpf66iIYqZYpCCSA825bvs5vM/mq5jCzyqj0gCp/izvxoqGerUtQ9OKxKx4OOLBp8mkAq0EaW ToTkvI4hKWhZ/xB/HMKhXdOKKoivCyxJhciLew6uvq8Yg4AHblHm6HMoQK7gcdpG46XPYSS0z tyA48IkJLpiVtKOCR2GMtkCp7oBQrh4/EYPovQHhBOCR9z3jPs5KpNQ2n1tH5hUzGTWrOlHbG 6hAFmKsL0W6mPS24a+4dx+O4CSWbTnlSi/um+sV7ZS8dQouabOIJMF+6+MrEv808c/o3S/1bi 5CtUv7Kc52UZRibjk7zXo0LPBhs= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Xie Shynur writes: > ELISP> `(emacs-version \, emacs-version) > (emacs-version . "28.2") > ``` > (custom-set-variables > '(var `(a . ,b))) > ``` > > Then change some options by GUI menu, and click `Save Options`: > > ``` > (custom-set-variables > '(var `(a \, b)) > '(changed-option new-value)) > ``` > Is it a feature or bug? It doesn't harm (it's not wrong), you see an implementation detail exposed, but it's not nice either. After discussing this and peripheral stuff with others I would suggest (I try to give a complete summary of the useful suggestions here) to do these things: (1) We should try to teach the printer to prefer the syntax (... . ,X) over (... \, X). The latter is equivalent but in most cases the first version will be easier to interpret. This would fix the above case about saving custom variables (readability). (2) We should (in the recently added function docstrings and the manual) explain that the reader constructs `X, ,X and ,@X are expanded to (or equivalent to) (\` X), (\, X) and (\,@ X) respectively, where the cars are the symbols with the names "`", "," and ",@". While this is an implementation detail, not knowing about that fact leaves the semantics of expressions like above unclear, which is not good. (3) Fix the header in backquote.el as suggested by Drew, e.g. like this: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-diff Content-Disposition: inline; filename=0001-lisp-emacs-lisp-backquote.el-Small-fix-in-commentary.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46rom 7c8bc97263a1b6d009a11b32d6e62e82fe14e997 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Michael Heerdegen Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2023 04:47:12 +0100 Subject: [PATCH] ; * lisp/emacs-lisp/backquote.el: Small fix in commentary =2D-- lisp/emacs-lisp/backquote.el | 6 +++--- 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/backquote.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/backquote.el index 84527234207..de14b5cd42f 100644 =2D-- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/backquote.el +++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/backquote.el @@ -25,9 +25,9 @@ ;;; Commentary: -;; When the Lisp reader sees `(...), it generates (\` (...)). -;; When it sees ,... inside such a backquote form, it generates (\, ...). -;; For ,@... it generates (\,@ ...). +;; When the Lisp reader sees `X it generates (\` X). +;; When it sees ,X it generates (\, X). For ,@X it generates +;; (\,@ X). ;; This backquote will generate calls to the backquote-list* form. ;; Both a function version and a macro version are included. =2D- 2.30.2 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Thanks, Michael. --=-=-=-- From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:02:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen , Xie Shynur Cc: "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16756597008805 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:02:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 05:01:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47142 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOtdM-0002Hx-99 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Yes and no, no? I see a difference between escaped comma and escaped comma before @. The above "are expanded to" doesn't cover this, I think. For example: `(a ,@ foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) `(a \,@foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,@ foo) - good `(a \,@ foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,@ foo) - good `(a , foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) `(a \,foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,foo) - good `(a \, foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) - bad, the bug case The \,@ cases and the \,foo case "work" because \, immediately followed by any escaped char or unescaped whitespace etc. works. It's only \, followed by unescaped whitespace etc. that doesn't work. > While this is an implementation detail, not knowing about that fact > leaves the semantics of expressions like above unclear, which is not > good. Agreed, but I don't think just describing those expansions that way is sufficient. For one thing, what's X? Whether certain chars follow the comma immediately makes a difference. > (3) Fix the header in backquote.el as suggested by Drew, e.g. like this: +;; When the Lisp reader sees `X it generates (\` X). +;; When it sees ,X it generates (\, X). For ,@X it generates +;; (\,@ X). I don't think that's sufficient - see above. ,X and ,@X aren't handled the same, and it matters what X is. X is not necessarily a new sexp. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:23:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams , Michael Heerdegen , Xie Shynur Cc: "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167566092810826 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:23:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 05:22:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47159 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOtx9-0002oW-RW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:22:08 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:39420) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOtx6-0002oJ-OX for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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=3D=3D> (a 4 5) > `(a \,@foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,@ foo) - good > `(a \,@ foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,@ foo) - good >=20 > `(a , foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) > `(a \,foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,foo) - good > `(a \, foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) - bad, the bug case Sorry for the typos in the comments. This is what it is: 1. `(a ,@ foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) 2. `(a \,@foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,@foo) - good 3. `(a \,@ foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,@ foo) - good 4. `(a , foo) ; =3D=3D> (a (4 5)) 5. `(a \,foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,foo) - good 6. `(a \, foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) - bad, bug case Note that #6 is not the same as #4. It's not just that the backslash made no difference. #6 is the same as #1: the backslash made the comma act like ,@. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:26:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167566113211210 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:26:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 05:25:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47163 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOu0S-0002uj-IJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:25:32 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:35705) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOu0Q-0002uV-1J for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:25:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675661118; bh=ckfMqc5fD7C6/O+LB0/4p0QNSPpwJmzOFnF9uNxgTr0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=w7YTKBGyd1t63qntKBxP+tu68vQXWZb37RfgFAO7u18MrjvEvya72s+/RfKPyeoMe bavGyKcRoZjg/vS5KCh1o+X/RIQ/l18/kPQrS14F7hKSFcKHYbUq1aLXDQchMKmzMs NXWcdhtZzZyxUg0L8O11/y1zFiaY4V8L0ARkY2Tk9vLBWRrv4GqXH6MfSiQRizWuGL Sz0IPqFHndKQ1AEcEPLEtOKIOO3xdKD7Sxj8skhcaLFj5IAxm7hWPkGNhfCZLvJYtv XihGqztfT1AnfWMYccneBOftbZtf6uZbofJmVUazBnCm0/FClKpxVlT4niERoHz2Rs PyYt9w822p6/A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MPaIK-1pCKxY1yQU-00Mi8m; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 06:25:18 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 6 Feb 2023 05:01:31 +0000") References: <87ilgfsaav.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 06:25:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87edr3s6v8.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:v4MN/gkBeexxjzjdukVCtEzHW9u2I555etHksocmg2KZgLEwgnc FCmLKoh5ro+sIIYUrIQISNiUYANE3Bn7tbwzPwIh6Fv+X6sMNMTqh8tsGvhjH9r+5OQXpPw DMbOpioVA5yI2SmcP7y2H2HNzoa5vbdS5i0RaN6srX1KeHYkjKgnHAoCsFuirBFOata72C5 3+xXaN7eN6zNlbJAzYFFA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:cnh7NpA2zWs=;QB6Ai6au3mMeOZ+IlOxuo/iZ9Ij yW+yx1hnA7ONXd6gu474Tt5EGa1tIZ6nR3innAyChGxrdmcsMxO+7RqtcyZpQcpv7tRE9gR0u Ui4KTKlWoc8Zb69+1EhKuh/wgX6jG2kn9sfSBCQcbE9kvoa80ooy5wd3I+Ooay+1NxHKc4Tf0 hW08o5xiJLFbKa/NHjVGTSFpm08GNoDQgLDeBXtS3UwqxMBfScbN4d+A3PCofhylmCNuwWKEV MT9F4CwXLhuaBNv343d4IhLtx4sZzrSWUTwYPDPM5KEgaSGAd0rcf3VK3OqgwmaW4qzK/lthe aM8SaBq5ocGKCkmYoKkFgYsusBUrmoa+NahPQgamPbANiD9m/ScrQRr/bl0fBfPUx/eRIMamB kwAVbdMU6Yr0B3nSbIIaOpVqOyjZYS9lhOoE+OMke0uYpoMcPU2Pk9KByQNTO7Z02D88FuT2Y 61koRC+MHf6JWShCYKIFDp1zWXi96BfeGWhXqU6IWnzqqjy9lEFP34Uw/D9HAbVeiBpo0vwCH guu41+0SDAgLJzoUAyRcHcsaYxlU+ma7DK9rfpW3KROpWAAOu6fexg9cmrnrRxK1Bn6KrsUVU mGxjwEenUzHu1xvLuO0d4XZbi7Yhd6GFueT77GGbbbEo5wlXy6mYSrpFj17OaUZ1cSusCJItH jE3qkBZa2eF1Mv6OitlTJYlsezK1VkvlJLCQzhAflG3SyaOH+PAxP6jv5WN8Z0pT0U5mxaRb2 m4fq67E6M/VdHqoeTKKlRSRSqXwxydoR1Vy9zRidyDXuXAIzGIPDgccFis88vV/oVVm3aN9cj 9E7qIuI/kV1NpQlZbYg7kxDXXL70YuDeVH6vJVkJ+u7olOs/wnPafNPpfskMFVprUwJvdu3Zk 9XgCZDR+xgVqqJ23PkmHb8sRiLNSadqXWqPL9PNxOE4C2l6+APE/xTjQyP6azdgYjSL3upXhd FwgEKRgGSbeFFWvdiDBzv2KBIA0= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > > (2) We should (in the recently added function docstrings and the manual) > > explain that the reader constructs `X, ,X and ,@X are expanded to (or > > equivalent to) (\` X), (\, X) and (\,@ X) respectively, where the cars > > are the symbols with the names "`", "," and ",@". > > Yes and no, no? > > I see a difference between escaped comma and > escaped comma before @. The above "are expanded > to" doesn't cover this, I think. For example: > [...] > `(a \, foo) ; ==> (a 4 5) - bad, the bug case It's a logical consequence (although not an obvious one, but also not totally unobvious) of the fact that this expression is equivalent to `(a . ,foo). If the Elisp printer would not sometimes output a syntax like what you call a "bug case", this would be such an extremely rare appearing corner case that I really would not mention it explicitly. Really, this would make people more wonder about why they need to know that, and distract from understanding the main points. > The \,@ cases and the \,foo case "work" because > \, immediately followed by any escaped char or > unescaped whitespace etc. works. It's only \, > followed by unescaped whitespace etc. that > doesn't work. `(a \,@ foo) would correspond to `(a . ,@foo), which would be illegal as backquote expression. Relying on the return value of that expression is calling for trouble. I have the same opinion about this as above. > Agreed, but I don't think just describing those > expansions that way is sufficient. For one > thing, what's X? Whether certain chars follow > the comma immediately makes a difference. The author is allowed to add more details about how the reader parses that character of course. > +;; When the Lisp reader sees `X it generates (\` X). > +;; When it sees ,X it generates (\, X). For ,@X it generates > +;; (\,@ X). > > I don't think that's sufficient - see above. > ,X and ,@X aren't handled the same, and it > matters what X is. X is not necessarily a new > sexp. For the file header this is enough IMO, it only clarifies what the backquote macro gets to see and needs to handle. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 09:41:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167567644525901 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 09:41:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 09:40:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47400 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOxzR-0006jh-A4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 04:40:45 -0500 Received: from smtp-out1.suse.de ([195.135.220.28]:34766) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOxzP-0006jJ-BD for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 04:40:43 -0500 Received: from relay2.suse.de (relay2.suse.de [149.44.160.134]) by smtp-out1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4613F2E3; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 09:40:37 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_rsa; t=1675676437; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=/ZDSde8TACRQFNPZh/OOvtBr4f6jjpBI5YC9Ck6muyE=; b=G6ZH4cuczlrOE7OBAl1ZiUzZTwq/YsEeWSvm1Tzs5SZn7+R6UlO1KzylAvX0omxij2CDqp 85ltOHTueX7Dl6UxPLE/7sZl3gwsG9zjzSOUsEgf5Dx9TbJebg5UFlw1VmkVMhMGvql1tf UsFF41dqvQBta9pPhSo4wuwirpNajQM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_ed25519; t=1675676437; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=/ZDSde8TACRQFNPZh/OOvtBr4f6jjpBI5YC9Ck6muyE=; b=Wtp6wNKZYd26QYhNVtRyBDTujm9JsKP+S9OecFCVakGNjzWcXUHUJRAucLgQ6fo9pLnp52 xv25SGuSvsVuuVDw== Received: from hawking.suse.de (unknown [10.168.4.11]) by relay2.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268DD2C141; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 09:40:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by hawking.suse.de (Postfix, from userid 17005) id AC386442F0D; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 10:40:36 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> X-Yow: A GRAM?? A BRAM... A GROOM... A BROOM... Oh, Yeh!! Wash the ROOM!! Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 10:40:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2023 00:56:00 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Feb 06 2023, Michael Heerdegen wrote: > S-exps are defined recursively. ",X" is read syntax of a valid s-exp, > and I don't think we want to make the reader raise an error for it. FWIW, clisp generates an error if the comma occurs outside of backquote. If you quote the comma, it is treated as an ordinary symbol character. $ clisp -q -x ',X' *** - READ: comma is illegal outside of backquote $ clisp -q -x '\,X' *** - SYSTEM::READ-EVAL-PRINT: variable |,X| has no value $ clisp -q -x '`\,X' |,X| -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Ihor Radchenko Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 10:50:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16756805591508 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 10:50:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 10:49:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47458 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOz3n-0000OG-Gi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:49:19 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:54319) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pOz3l-0000Ny-Gg for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:49:18 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B077524028B for <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 11:49:10 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675680551; bh=61R+RFoXXsS1T39GL40LJRbhmSG18ATqkkjbdxtZI3o=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=onyZn+B1+xWPABb+3qS28mDvDCKE2HDv3JnyuvcqDF8FBW3uFzMF+99eCWhv9OL3Y rjKf1SnMT5lwFPVDfm8N4d9/jBrjiTbTZzTl2jOJpL7RlK/mvoLrgXx8aQPV02djI2 3EMhpgl/g1ASwDOVo+FP2KwzCd7AKBX+DADB3/6zm6d7KXi3d1Kmkh4mgaRDYzb+xq tJ3Dm7sXLuUOLAInmW4k93k96c+0o1GC2SF6Nj86GekTGKAEwYFujx374hj24D98NX VuSTlY7vQqjXbS8NakzS5WEIIyaS2XIp2eF/ffc15Tyy7nwFocLeFroQALqkED8RfA swMaiaFNRXRkQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P9NKx3L9kz9rxR; Mon, 6 Feb 2023 11:49:09 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 10:49:46 +0000 Message-ID: <875ycfoyph.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Drew Adams writes: > ... But only if they need to use a > symbol named "," normally inside backquote -- a > rare case, surely. I recall one user had a need to macro-expand something that indented to be passed to another macro-expand. We did not find a way to retain "," in the macro-expanded sexp. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:44:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Andreas Schwab , Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167570181921231 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:44:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:43:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49712 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4ag-0005WN-TY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:43:39 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:5400) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4af-0005WC-3J for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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",X" is read syntax of a valid s-exp, > > and I don't think we want to make the reader raise an error for it. >=20 > FWIW, clisp generates an error if the comma occurs outside of backquote. > If you quote the comma, it is treated as an ordinary symbol character. >=20 > $ clisp -q -x ',X' > *** - READ: comma is illegal outside of backquote > $ clisp -q -x '\,X' > *** - SYSTEM::READ-EVAL-PRINT: variable |,X| has no value >=20 > $ clisp -q -x '`\,X' > |,X| Thanks for that info, confirming what clisp does. Those are all what I'd expect/hope: the \,x inside the backquote sexp is read as the symbol |,x|. The Elisp question (bug) is really only about a _bare_ escaped comma, not one that's immediately followed by symbol chars (e.g. x). E.g., what do these give? $ clisp -q -x '`\,' $ clisp -q -x '`(\, x)' From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:44:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167570182921257 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:44:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:43:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49717 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4ar-0005Wl-8d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:43:49 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:29258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4ap-0005We-Ev for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4b999523-2a67-4bf2-d31e-08db08614cbb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Feb 2023 16:43:39.4659 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 7XrkdVAdovF47xspuxRWHLjLV3PTyOOj8LBoDZocIG+0pCxoh6lQ+DPyWMHWeZNG9DsSHX4C/5z7TBm0bahyHw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR10MB4153 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.219,Aquarius:18.0.930,Hydra:6.0.562,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2023-02-06_07,2023-02-06_03,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=715 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2212070000 definitions=main-2302060146 X-Proofpoint-GUID: QSymAZLMT2Mt8WUmJOfcWQmSKql4gTAO X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: QSymAZLMT2Mt8WUmJOfcWQmSKql4gTAO X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > I see a difference between escaped comma and > > escaped comma before @. The above "are expanded > > to" doesn't cover this, I think. For example: > > [...] > > `(a \, foo) ; =3D=3D> (a 4 5) - bad, the bug case >=20 > It's a logical consequence (although not an obvious one, but also not > totally unobvious) of the fact that this expression is equivalent to > `(a . ,foo). Again, I think you're describing the implementation, not why it _should_ behave this way. IF we assume (whether or not this bug will be fixed), as I thought we agreed (?), that it makes more sense for bare "\," within backquote, just as outside it, and just as for UNbare escaped comma (e.g. "\,xyz"), whether inside or outside backquote, to escape/undo the backquote-meaning of "," THEN the sexp `(a \, foo) should just return (a \, foo), a list of three symbols. > > The \,@ cases and the \,foo case "work" because > > \, immediately followed by any escaped char or > > unescaped whitespace etc. works. It's only \, > > followed by unescaped whitespace etc. that > > doesn't work. >=20 > `(a \,@ foo) would correspond to `(a . ,@foo), which=20 > would be illegal as backquote expression. Whether "illegal" or not, in Elisp it already works as I would expect, and as I showed: 3. `(a \,@ foo) ; =3D=3D> (a \,@ foo) - good Elisp correctly escapes the comma, to be a normal symbol constituent, and the symbol name ",@" is used. Nothing in the backquote sexp calls for any evaluation; the result is the same list of 3 symbols as the input to `. > Relying on the return value of that expression=20 > is calling for trouble. How so? On what basis do you think it's "illegal"? > I have the same opinion about this as above. Which is that it runs counter to what you say the Elisp implementation gives? But clearly the Elisp implementation doesn't agree. The only bug, IMO, is that an escaped isolated comma is not actually escaped from the backquote interpretation/behavior of comma. There's no bug for an escaped comma that's immediately followed by other symbol chars (including @). =20 > > Agreed, but I don't think just describing those > > expansions that way is sufficient. For one > > thing, what's X? Whether certain chars follow > > the comma immediately makes a difference. >=20 > The author is allowed to add more details about > how the reader parses that character of course. Author of the code? The original comment? My mail? I don't have a suggestion for the comment improvement. Unless it's to say what I've said in this thread, perhaps showing some of the cases. Or maybe just refer to this bug thread in the comments. And perhaps adding a FIXME to confirm that there's a bug - if, that is, the Deciders agree. > > +;; When the Lisp reader sees `X it generates (\` X). > > +;; When it sees ,X it generates (\, X). For ,@X=20 > > +;; it generates (\,@ X). > > > > I don't think that's sufficient - see above. > > ,X and ,@X aren't handled the same, and it > > matters what X is. X is not necessarily a new > > sexp. >=20 > For the file header this is enough IMO, it only clarifies=20 > what the backquote macro gets to see and needs to handle. The behavior depends on what X is allowed to be. Is it something that parses (is read) as a separate sexp? Is it any sequence of chars? Any sequence of symbol chars? I guess at this point we understand each other and can just agree to disagree. And I guess we agree that it's unlikely that the bug will be fixed. And if it were fixed there may be some code that depends on the bugged behavior (very unlikely, IMO). And (more likely), the fix might introduce new bugs, as this seems tricky. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:47:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167570199221598 (code B ref 61281); Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:47:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2023 16:46:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49728 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4dU-0005cI-Ee for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 11:46:32 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:41636) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pP4dS-0005c9-SS for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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But only if they need to use a > > symbol named "," normally inside backquote -- a > > rare case, surely. >=20 > I recall one user had a need to macro-expand something that indented to > be passed to another macro-expand. We did not find a way to retain "," > in the macro-expanded sexp. Thanks. All the more reason why it would be good for the bug to be fixed. It may be a corner case, but apparently it really exists. [I'm guessing Emacs autocorrected "intended" to "indented".] From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 01:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Ihor Radchenko , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167573205012690 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 01:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 01:07:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50480 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPCSI-0003Ic-99 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 20:07:30 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:36827) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPCSH-0003IQ-16 for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 20:07:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675732036; bh=0YesW6iyQvIfdfPNKbC18O3AXzWlD0bPqri9ZOolCbY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=lo6JCFssvPj2GZPIAza6IeT/wal/31yYXVNSmwTOP0nbbsLk7m+ZjtPjaoEYUPYEN 1SVNSjzp73x3reP0c5fJLZ7M+IcYqklZ4lCPw6XhM/J6EBfKFEGRGwvmMPh5h3lQi+ B0SpQV1pJfz/oYPRMzJqFeC5PbMxwz3m61jf4QceiWcUheS4ZkCeqqDlKFva12ItT+ G+cpRKOc9akv1pI5MbHSDP1S7qvcXo/Ov7InHRuVvtv40CAUCLnGmA9Evql4EgTHUt dpcVbDsrg5tpy++dBJZW2N4LBHi4nfwcYgr/qfjqvhzQrWm5gzjBzTWYWzoUGf7wOg +6KaXiAvRWY8w== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MPrPT-1pCMfQ3QKh-00MvjP; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:07:15 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 6 Feb 2023 16:46:21 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> <875ycfoyph.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:07:14 +0100 Message-ID: <87ttzy8erh.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:R5FHQt26oWlQNqzbK4Q7sPtR3w3G2vmQsd9J86BW1oBdi6Xjw5b S6htoECm4oGKm/gLXDpxWTqxZM+eelEv1kIr6oRvknb775+kWnCswvVQYmUlTQCJcFkZdOY Y0HM0/oTqTm7y9U0btQjKJVRXrdkyziBMG/gntKg+8i5uvr7K44DecWnUuuBG5sJfXwcqoD Iiv9xZvgSmlkmUH53pqrg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:ajm0gujAfpc=;1Pjt1QQ08nQQdW7p/Py8cXnPt/6 O5mZH/COpC64dTECnXa1BPnv7bW44vzSFSghHl4BOw+rZ0gjPNrmnUpvh4idhPmMYuLA9vnGH /BjkSqFSNyDzs0zKqq1o2QQsuxAA21JWfB8zfaWtqmfnsCduK8yJY1TmY3o/O/q4I7kP5KGQ1 3nVg04TpsbjNqQ1lUBoPDFInT3a5+nRDIqnniSX4O5lw70HIr/v1H4jZv26X6DxXXjik/rOfi aNhCD7GmkZ1y5GCoJKjyJU1S4rMNXyifdKZONg+b5N5YW+sLs+x5lJbWUnulhSuVN3yTZ3pjx b6N7++hzuhr0+pzeQPfbGd3oN1w9jlj5Xxi8qm4Q6j8tEBJrD+GDlwx0CwOh4kZh9qrOL/Gzi 3o211WqJqg7yEU0m59wU9cblm071pZFYt/dc0yPFqD87VorEkELM9nGTY0+81vKkIVg88iha5 ljGdrh7F4s5BFlWMrBsuzthKaekPetAry3JOVGCN8R4mPod1yyD+r5ARqPsY94Q2sA84JkW5v Tc31I6iePLUYziL1ubHjJR1ylc9PYncVNwGqFeLW6dbj/GpZOsropONGaFfJs46IzBHD1H6XP vrDI2hKweZRWi8chGpMkuLsjwP0Tp27a3PhQ653snEyn2NCcVIe2UdyatO0nnsFhXGjKBD5n0 g/Y+nFl8MMAdjxQa1weQLu2cBDDbyWS7krEJ3YKxZvlPnqFvN9K6ODd4+Js2EjYO48q2aI5AZ 8rvGUUm//H6ximizExeQTEvyQpzxjpovXQc55qFhIcuLo2HhNSxaqoBMQom9LW4jCSXMkcx/j JGZokx7kj7wmF8HDc3eSE4jrwIBkdRrthxm76oeX1qa6RXDSAJxs2iHkiVBZXy97b/Pzw8Und AZETx/rIJvrhQtBB0su/kwoUdoomZT3JN6k0B2VahKz/yXi0luy42EkyEU4n700FjxOWeGFh8 alohKA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > > I recall one user had a need to macro-expand something that indented to > > be passed to another macro-expand. We did not find a way to retain "," > > in the macro-expanded sexp. > > Thanks. All the more reason why it would be good for the bug to be > fixed. It may be a corner case, but apparently it really exists. Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is a contradictory argument: to retain a single "," for another macroexpand, you are actually _using_ this implementation detail (in the outer expansion), so it is of no use to change the ,X --> (\, X) expansion because then, the outer macro expansion would handle the single "," as well. And if the reader syntax "," was meant, this kind of "problem" exists in other Lisps as well. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 01:41:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167573405515786 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 01:41:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 01:40:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50497 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPCyd-00046X-3y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 20:40:55 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:37545) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPCyU-00046B-2Z for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 20:40:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675734031; bh=tz3ui5f65VxbufCwT76h51N5U7UwEQcMhqLdT9FCy8E=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=sIr2k8027DvJ46K0uw0Gkl1fw65jL5VGL4Q32BkWJA6l1/d90CJtsU5D7DZH1JmBk udHamqcbsqXnXLFTIkKrKsHujKaeSlVUVqxYe7AqntEcH/Y9D94YZ/+px26kp+jArM lMcpNlmrVYPcAdVnHfRePCzoNthq86htwmKhnIHuY3a7sXp4qI8nxNtUmjlAHaKbY5 uwgElryU8wGGG2DgUwcbRZELOOkB2tRp9K3Ca4jn8gQZA8jOKQn5oR65mvKUpqwk9x 3e7xq+JLCHMN6gYwSpsFaXf+RtYAKfh81tc4XqwNbNkqA0VGN0f1j+Ht6NcvKROCY/ D0Pf9n3nL6ioA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MeDQZ-1orFOb3lOJ-00bJL2; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:40:30 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <875ycfoyph.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Mon, 06 Feb 2023 10:49:46 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> <875ycfoyph.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:40:27 +0100 Message-ID: <87o7q68d84.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:OkFRqZv+Y74dnjxpWyM6WJWKcHtmMWmPP48NSAXc6fEXLXYFP6o EPBpVJxAiJ5TgDYOy5Aax0eEmJajSstuollT5oM83YVeOYRwTbooq/zzxkRPNAblXbCOXBJ ETTUHWhKtzdtXHZpbEmgNzx0t783laOWCUnr4t4KVg0CnkNHqxBuPCy7ysvQkVUDeG8HzVF 8aIYtKkuJn+QtrNsHm+mw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:CsR1XONBahA=;up/U8+xA7ARsKryvdNMe5EkN3Rf 4mJ4dPJSMvjySAY3FxCkL1zSfq08AKk8k919rG3sa6uX+uHhBnE4PsNGvuZD/W8tWFIn+nPJc boYhY6PODavJyPCD1zpKYvBpyYksynKGLFxo3ktgOOW2OMRVlK41FQW0Ofvr6/P0zNJm7Hnti nvJvYEw+NeqrlBK5wrtUqwjfojqvMVpte5C32wrslTLp+8XIuMM2aIlBTIMJ8h/6iF0Ll5+HT KKgmDMAhaHvmBAvBZ0NshYiTwGea9M7moMqAp22J76GuM3vlxTNvQBuBCLi52pBeDjvmyp0X1 ntqFJmfLQ/zBW6bqmtmyAe2MGUqd3hZCYRMIJghSyttbNscRN2UvmpamFu+5h/9BzoTcoe11c QtjRAl4KNw/n1C3fA37PoHbhKT9FIUave3wJFpVmD2AleoREixgYXUwVpCUKQq9COlsAltaRu X5MX9JCvPFSMvsmZhaywFwVYZrfXrjv3SF8oQ0ZybdPoH8YXjA+uJ71EvR+DSN9c5PsSwFo6I r/HkS5kDiPYoWnelMKYH+MM7PkxFSEBNTur5nn9D0oXxWNbu/sWoNdBFGzcW7VZ77YkmSTQci utOmSjdp+2o+Y4J4/CzjodcgnnmB92Cz7rL9ABhU5zJsBIo9YgQl+VbhxEeo/SK/i0zBh3d9R Vrx5izx+IF1mmsk2CEmWS0sHuhtfAzEg6UuPe0an3CLyGH59MiGXvLhJBlok3moGlu1+9A2K2 CHKQwCy2iuYYZ/yhVyKhOKTd7v6vV3+9qMylCodutV9ZcT+q7rOXZBTwO4m9KsFEuYOlRHXXQ S7/CykNfDUWbtCDujEJqS1FrHnSygZx5rD4pb4pDLVYIoQ+PUYBM9DdHMkG7YibPURlYkWkT7 VnRAPhx9RwzM5M/KA8dLGbHXN5ghcVO/Td2SXC4rtQl5XjXo6FW6s76hsyfOPIkNR7O/Br0uV 82m1+0IY4hKrE6bxDyPTLMKJmXQ= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > I recall one user had a need to macro-expand something that indented to > be passed to another macro-expand. We did not find a way to retain "," > in the macro-expanded sexp. I guess you are describing the common difficulties related to multiple levels of backquotes (nested backquotes). These are tricky (for human brains) and you need to know little "tricks" to get what you want (took me a while to discover how to deal with nested backquotes, maybe we should have examples in the manual?). Anyway, you (only) need to use trivial quoting, it is not necessary and probably not good style to use the symbol "," instead of the reader construct in human written code. Compare: #+begin_src emacs-lisp ;; Substitution at the same place at multiple levels: (let ((f 'my-function)) ``(when (funcall ,,f) (do-something))) ==> `(when (funcall ,my-function) (do-something)) ;; Substitution once, by outside level backquote: (let ((f 'my-function)) ``(when (funcall ,',f) (do-something))) ==> `(when (funcall ,'my-function) (do-something)) ;; Substitution once, by the inside backquote ``(when (funcall ,,'f) (do-something)) ==> `(when (funcall ,f) (do-something)) or simpler: ``(when (funcall ,f) (do-something)) ==> `(when (funcall ,f) (do-something)) #+end_src You probably tried to get some of these cases work, and it's not trivial to get to a solution the first time one encounters this problem. But this has not directly a relation to what we discuss here. If you rewrite ,X as (\, X) you have additional ways to express the above things, looking like (,'\, X) etc (though these are less readable). But, unless I guessed wrong what you were originally trying to achieve, you just have to solve the nested-backquotes problems like in other Lisps, Elisp is not preventing you to use any of these syntaxes. It's just that trying the (\, X) rewrite doesn't bring you closer to the solution of the original problem. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:01:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167573523417885 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:01:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 02:00:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50506 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPDHa-0004eG-Uf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 21:00:34 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:38657) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPDHZ-0004e1-BK for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2023 21:00:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675735217; bh=5Xr3JRKAHzbVCJITUClDwRVAQxGOLz5Nw2GHpP1nTOo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=ZXs9R+W2Jw7O5/3K9B4NUoTWzI6EXjdbnI+ax9iXVYG3x3perv/u9Q1w+9XW37dP3 k1Xk8rLdYTCuJ6px0Q1lBIa02kobe19X73o4cDsiVAp3Jsie2zOPZqsVj2DYixB2on hD9GiFpnbAj0kWG4KCvzNuoHHFsMks37RKG2QcVy/uu54zmy0oTshe+rxUGQiA/sff 13rR56vVjiRe9DATLGI1fSL5aYP4672UBa04LlJzwIG1vllcR/kuGKTYMld+51Lc+H ZdyfMLYLFOuSXRy68iHn1Ljh1zu8V7e5XPPp3kbeKRL8tkSh24LTCnWyu6ijvv31NT dS48CLmdC/VjQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxHYK-1oewFV2IyO-00xcoT; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 03:00:17 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 6 Feb 2023 16:43:39 +0000") References: <87ilgfsaav.fsf@web.de> <87edr3s6v8.fsf@web.de> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 03:00:16 +0100 Message-ID: <87k00u8cb3.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:FKFwVdBNu8RIqi6e52+SEtGXtTBnNQc9hBYHWYidYMvdUTVv8cG TiiPaquglo47GybqEge4M1nrFwfldJw8Lfm0Uv0VfS9cjU3otpB5sRveVp6M09SkFAQrx51 0CrCFyrNBgIeYff2CcaElZQARyEiXcMSRsSF5THXGVOHZ8wKMBMXkQNMwIEP1AP42HXKcT4 nV47i9AadkZv2zUiwh6xw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:AOiUHXBD6dg=;ALqnqPtuPDzUOLrV7JOTO9J0g6d PvEUO89sd9Atr2anSROja7pQt1tQubL6eHUuDUijEHAFvKckNkfaHYzzoyDa7ZhdxFX09ohMp CCVa8T7CbOGZMLHqkDRMeqM6QBXvhzI6db3np2XNNi6wVs6ZMcpWt0m4opMKH/C7bI02YEIjd 79ShGah71+GBrok7oA+nECLnSURXEkaVLdSAtdh/R8KfHqoaOGUYnRvUIJhjwpDltqZolA0vQ ZibrKd6BWX1v2iykge84DiKCcVHqeYZ5S2oHpWKmOgSYE8X5zYXs1av68fSPgnni2hfWAvBie oiUNIVenU+sYB8LINXZKsYm2bjCKvvAVwkaXeWf75KuLZeT932RZi4tm/E1Lgnlr36Gh4Mewg +HKvQYWEj5QEhaXitWnX6N2a0qm02mWRz6Js4HH6O3+owI3K2oIEpSBByrnGGUsN9tUwpHXIo wIhFVBtnhfX3tvxu42r5hG3V18tN3R4LFBlgLoqyIEaWzxCDyaDQRGf5PuWn5xkYr/Bl47ZvE EyTP3vRgGaPn38tjCx9OqG75o8zeJhS6cMK029XIJuHXbx9J0LFt7w8JDBoJNpoY6pK91B60Q W6YUWLEd6maxwUd/P3NbBMIpD/E40DuNP3RKu0Jjc1V22NA5pSV0WMo6yzJjx3FqZZ5tDbdyQ kswpF6P9Yc0nKqiGj8jNvYeS7SqQo545hTPFQePcbDfSaf3leK2iYqn/IpyJQ90ScSo5T430K 0knRT2hAvZSW9bPFheQEdWoExhEqcYVXx1ryRqNNL/fDwPW+Rp00NwGAAXHWPvbOHPmiYOz6p ahli9DIny5NH2SlAQVRH39Hy0zsE1bWpbnlyD3faNkyD5BesX8J44oRDN5QpPJqKFLuWPVUoV vIt6XhQahYwcL/9kzwo8lvelJHZBPX6YwSgowxNw0Iojet6OubIVx4kyDz35iQVvf/4O0OwS4 UGjaXg== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > THEN the sexp `(a \, foo) should just return (a \, foo), > a list of three symbols. I missed that you are still talking about this thing. Yes, you can call this a bug, but given that we agreed that it is unlikely that the behavior will change, I somehow thought you were describing some other thing. > > Relying on the return value of that expression > > is calling for trouble. > > How so? On what basis do you think it's "illegal"? On the basis these things are implemented in Elisp. It is likely that this will not change, so I think we should warn users to avoid using the symbols with names ",@" and "," in backquote expressions directly (you can still prevent them being handled with quoting of course, so it's not forbidden to use them). Because of this "bug" and that the behavior depends on implementation details (also that of ",@", maybe it's also broken in some cases or works only by luck, dunno). > > > Agreed, but I don't think just describing those > > > expansions that way is sufficient. For one > > > thing, what's X? Whether certain chars follow > > > the comma immediately makes a difference. > > > > The author is allowed to add more details about > > how the reader parses that character of course. > > Author of the code? The original comment? My > mail? The author of the documentation improvement I suggested, Drew. I don't know who that will be. > The behavior depends on what X is allowed to be. > Is it something that parses (is read) as a separate > sexp? Is it any sequence of chars? Any sequence > of symbol chars? It is obvious that the Lisp implementation of the "`" macro receives symbolic expressions. It's a Lisp library. And only a comment in a file header, not the manual. > I guess at this point we understand each other and > can just agree to disagree. I think we actually agree on all things more or less but talked past each other. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 08:57:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167576021625220 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 08:57:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 08:56:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51044 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPJmZ-0006Yi-US for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 03:56:56 -0500 Received: from smtp-out2.suse.de ([195.135.220.29]:53318) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPJmX-0006YJ-Jm for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 03:56:54 -0500 Received: from relay2.suse.de (relay2.suse.de [149.44.160.134]) by smtp-out2.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C70260FA9; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 08:56:47 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_rsa; t=1675760207; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=SQL0Z1R2uY52miaf7IIrhkfKKgg0eJ4WIisy3Yjz4Lc=; b=SX47zEwqGvrSrI3YJpTc3HSTKELLD6kGxJi7jdqmZ6jgBVQwAEAFdHTsfrqnFEKi28zWO8 zmPdZD+nKLWnMbXx4L2dWXtoylKNeWxwTlfmiDYlJgDrqFkXpEpoO09JqMR+ymIc2Oo/gG RD+n375aDGGYLTHhTew/MdPRQx1138E= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_ed25519; t=1675760207; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=SQL0Z1R2uY52miaf7IIrhkfKKgg0eJ4WIisy3Yjz4Lc=; b=jsg1iYsIDt4u4JNvF/79Ns1b/EGkrhWB0bFjcm9eLAjfm4xKBXpi93kTUOCrgZN+OreTL8 NhTFEruvRnX1o7DA== Received: from hawking.suse.de (unknown [10.168.4.11]) by relay2.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72C2C2C141; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 08:56:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by hawking.suse.de (Postfix, from userid 17005) id 1DAFC442F17; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 09:56:46 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> X-Yow: Yow! I'm having a quadrophonic sensation of two winos alone in a steel mill! Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 09:56:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 6 Feb 2023 16:43:32 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) In clisp, backquote is implemented via system::backquote, system::unquote and system::splice. Thus the symbol |,| has no special meaning. $ clisp -q -x $'(car \'`,X)' SYSTEM::BACKQUOTE $ clisp -q -x $'(cadr \'`,X)' (SYSTEM::UNQUOTE X) $ clisp -q -x $'(cadr \'`(,@X))' ((SYSTEM::SPLICE X)) $ clisp -q -x "'(system::backquote (system::unquote x))" `,X $ clisp -q -x "'(system::backquote (system::splice x))" `,@X $ clisp -q -x '`,@x' *** - READ: the syntax `,@form is invalid -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: Double backquote expansion and "," (was: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?=) Resent-From: Ihor Radchenko Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Adam Porter , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167577062111275 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:51:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 11:50:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51354 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPMUO-0002vm-Vv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 06:50:21 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:60941) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPMUM-0002vT-UH for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 06:50:19 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0C8A240487 for <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 12:50:12 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675770612; bh=76lBSl7PUCd4Dv3e55+fKupjR2oYWQM4N42AyFdQ/9c=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=nAACc4p40ed9pdKQ6+PUunjPE0ZU1SJI/qKHn6FsonaTDDfEDdral28nhC3rFMgkP 7yHvX56TbQi7H0DlPFfE6hcQuCA4g7UhAH5rAzjdGRhzKyw8JlTvS8bpU8RlheuZoY fkjtUTdtD4W/unTU5YYlODn1SzVcK0cody/zJzfCBa1OX9lmeb2hSh1iEc7BT4pIUK kwItR174Ifb1pGd9nD1avIT+84LtXrHHftUfwc7Kqiee+zkzBosvELE2TN1MALVVZ7 XEK8QDT6uGBSGmaeT5pqeBN772g3WAMTeQxQukEtGLdHzne+n/k6YrCPC/du6/Dhym 0X6/HyM5tekUw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PB1dt0CJ6z6ts8; Tue, 7 Feb 2023 12:50:08 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko In-Reply-To: <87o7q68d84.fsf@web.de> References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> <875ycfoyph.fsf@localhost> <87o7q68d84.fsf@web.de> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:50:47 +0000 Message-ID: <87pmal8zjc.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: > But this has not directly a relation to what we discuss here. If you > rewrite ,X as (\, X) you have additional ways to express the above > things, looking like (,'\, X) etc (though these are less readable). I may indeed be misunderstanding the case I raised vs. the discussed bug. Let's branch this off. > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> I recall one user had a need to macro-expand something that indented to >> be passed to another macro-expand. We did not find a way to retain "," >> in the macro-expanded sexp. > > I guess you are describing the common difficulties related to multiple > levels of backquotes (nested backquotes). These are tricky (for human > brains) and you need to know little "tricks" to get what you want (took > me a while to discover how to deal with nested backquotes, maybe we > should have examples in the manual?). I would appreciate having such examples in the manual. Also, CCing Adam, who originally raised the question. > Anyway, you (only) need to use trivial quoting, it is not necessary and > probably not good style to use the symbol "," instead of the reader > construct in human written code. Could you elaborate? > Compare: > > #+begin_src emacs-lisp > ;; Substitution at the same place at multiple levels: > (let ((f 'my-function)) > ``(when (funcall ,,f) (do-something))) > ==> > `(when (funcall ,my-function) > (do-something)) > > ;; Substitution once, by outside level backquote: > (let ((f 'my-function)) > ``(when (funcall ,',f) (do-something))) > ==> > `(when (funcall ,'my-function) > (do-something)) > > ;; Substitution once, by the inside backquote > ``(when (funcall ,,'f) (do-something)) > ==> > `(when (funcall ,f) > (do-something)) > > or simpler: > > ``(when (funcall ,f) (do-something)) > ==> > `(when (funcall ,f) > (do-something)) > #+end_src > > You probably tried to get some of these cases work, and it's not trivial > to get to a solution the first time one encounters this problem. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:01:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Andreas Schwab Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167579285713523 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:01:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 18:00:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53975 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPSH3-0003W2-6Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 13:00:57 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:43468) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPSH0-0003Vq-Mj for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Thus the symbol |,| > has no special meaning. If the symbol |,| has no special meaning inside backquote then that answers my question. Still, could you please show these uses of bare "\,"=20 explicitly? $ clisp -q -x '`\,' $ clisp -q -x '`(\, x)' You showed the following, which are not in question. Elisp does the same thing for these - it (correctly) reads "\,X" as the symbol named ",X", even inside backquote sexps. >> $ clisp -q -x ',X' >> *** - READ: comma is illegal outside of backquote >> $ clisp -q -x '\,X' >> *** - SYSTEM::READ-EVAL-PRINT: variable |,X| has no value >> >> $ clisp -q -x '`\,X' >> |,X| It's only _bare_ "\," that Elisp treats the same as an unescaped comma (","), provoking eval of what follows it. What does clisp do for bare "\," (i.e., not immediately followed by symbol chars)? From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:01:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167579286213555 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:01:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 18:01:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53977 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPSH7-0003WS-Hy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 13:01:02 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:42340) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPSH0-0003Vp-Hi for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Is it any sequence of chars? > > Any sequence of symbol chars? >=20 > It is obvious that the Lisp implementation of=20 > the "`" macro receives symbolic expressions. This is about the Lisp reader. When you write ",X" in that explanatory comment it's ambiguous whether "X" is an arbitrary sequence of chars or some Lisp sexp (read separately after reading the ","). ",abcd" is handled differently than ", abcd", as we've gone over several times now. The bug (not "bug") is the handling of bare "\,". There's no such bug for "\,abcd" or even "\,@" or "\,@", for arbitrary (arbitrary text or a sexp). > > I guess at this point we understand each > > other and can just agree to disagree. >=20 > I think we actually agree on all things more > or less but talked past each other. Maybe. I think rather that we understand each other and probably agree about the facts. But I think we may have different interpretations of the facts. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: Double backquote expansion and ", " Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:34:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Adam Porter , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16758128133087 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:34:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 23:33:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54228 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPXSv-0000nj-8V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:33:33 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:48079) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPXSs-0000nV-NO for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:33:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675812790; bh=3zAnQAgTT3O5FeyYfnMRyB4wIwXAAgTlNIzV9J/CTN8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=aUHOoCaceO7u7QA22AhyAw3AwikHt6SNLCl3O4a3xzf5hGPB178dx5v9aSUwYgNPO RQx0fxKX3RchbHg1YBZNTzkz11NXSzwseDJ5Rq9B7DqiI49wj0fZL1tUwTOmdqOOp0 9yBYekwHp5IpiJFzOq7Jh+xHNj8tA3cSB2+nBpxafaCYyse9j4J/668uZ94WySjQ/h QHryK1tv8NQfAe8c8qA1a1A+azx39JKulxVA837lQjGvGjVCGIootmMoqU7B1cy8tv BGR125UoMCo47DA9miBkI4LirDqcnm20CIy9Qhu2MeOeGD8/J64Oov44Ni3F4QuRF3 FoR3mmlV9oqGw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M4bYo-1pQ59k0skA-001f1C; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 00:33:10 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87pmal8zjc.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 07 Feb 2023 11:50:47 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> <875ycfoyph.fsf@localhost> <87o7q68d84.fsf@web.de> <87pmal8zjc.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 00:33:04 +0100 Message-ID: <877cwtaw5r.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:EFMqOAWqXngiJhYAqPFQy2dspS9F4USKocTmoW851ZQSuen4Arz pZmJ+fl40Y6OH/VNrfZBj47l2nXkFGcaylfRcSP5cnPbejyIPzd1+qczTISXvbtvGTmi4SR p8m1lSo3fZiXewLwr9hBqq+NqREJYFgKrKjjFPHHNKhuc96Xi6+XJn+nv5fxyfynt1nX1td /104YF1EMYUmNjdkmcACg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:z2K5JC1r6sY=;Qj8vNVLq1enQe493CZF0t9kPqAF slaq7LzDg3bPC5u0wAp1D4fikXbATBOhxRLQfhXHun+IYFFcXdi+zN83TaImxdlc2T3R19S03 hGgKPqRYLmo9BpvIhACbu8UA9l2+MhyOxsExBaj7Zls0xDaLycD2Hj1tbY8lE3/6qS4NGqLWL KdYGG0j/sbGPNUYHd0ne8wgktVC5sMpQPlu2t7+mfaW5hgS+yt7Dn8UOdVkIb/Rp3sIITuzuS 4TAY6qf8VgiMF/8MHKhEI5bv27YlAEyNYymPV4q3x6mEt8YkH7xbZgzu7mVDIZ0bODll0pYJt UlgpFmDBPY7tNmRT+HFja9OG/9q7fVp0mbq1yMnYzwO7jJTDkQbxazjCGsJtgW1q8ikNCNlRb f/FZM4Hr9WEEmwfOF6nuvmxRNrkzejJQOwFcBb+yDLBY+c3KVuJQOptoHkFDdak1T7V9H+PSs wuhpGdv6BNOH1Zrqro5JdAnv4I4OFVpLoKBJwqp1sgiM1f8F0XYJj9db6wG+3V304VTqTvr4c /86gn3X/3AnbryoWIT82vn4IReJgQUIqkL95ryRuM8f0ySwk4E3TxyD1kiXm5cnc+o1A36C5J 7dqHV7c2ougylPznxExMhc5+yqYu6eHKU+PxOe7jXmkprUlp5qoWpgx7dBR5W9dopT+VhrSdX 1nyd7na9xxMKTls5x8r6ONqQBL8lz7tYJU+0jfpt2wBu/8db8E2qDSbspK9cn8QsBa132IQ8s CREiZ9/UsC1BcKQtcQVcorrWciMIvZ+BeTrGOLvmHp3w62CuTA92ywZqLgI4tuT7Lin9GDM6H Sa/NUdj6tAGVc76ZfN9Cdw1IuJ469UuvTszMu62VbhUIikyIOc2to6u2ILJ6kunBRBVaRsK3v a7XcaQDo1b3SEtP578A2uV1DCjcerVBjQFLUTCyyQ/3E5kx7CbDRWzhl1qSOc/hrcLdL8QQ27 aK80pMnFbkggbmFIozKqvdcY5Tk= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Ihor Radchenko writes: > > Anyway, you (only) need to use trivial quoting, it is not necessary and > > probably not good style to use the symbol "," instead of the reader > > construct in human written code. > Could you elaborate? On what? You said "We did not find a way to retain "," in the macro-expanded sexp.", I tried to demonstrate how to handle this. As you see, it is not necessary to use "," the symbol, the examples all use the reader construct syntax and quoting. If that doesn't answer your question, please ask more specific questions. > > Compare: > > > > #+begin_src emacs-lisp > > ;; Substitution at the same place at multiple levels: > > (let ((f 'my-function)) > > ``(when (funcall ,,f) (do-something))) > > ==> > > `(when (funcall ,my-function) > > (do-something)) > > > > ;; Substitution once, by outside level backquote: > > (let ((f 'my-function)) > > ``(when (funcall ,',f) (do-something))) > > ==> > > `(when (funcall ,'my-function) > > (do-something)) > > > > ;; Substitution once, by the inside backquote > > ``(when (funcall ,,'f) (do-something)) > > ==> > > `(when (funcall ,f) > > (do-something)) > > > > or simpler: > > > > ``(when (funcall ,f) (do-something)) > > ==> > > `(when (funcall ,f) > > (do-something)) > > #+end_src > > > > You probably tried to get some of these cases work, and it's not trivial > > to get to a solution the first time one encounters this problem. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:37:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16758130113395 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:37:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 23:36:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54232 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPXW6-0000sg-T8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:36:51 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:39237) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPXW5-0000sU-Er for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:36:49 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675812998; bh=+UlNdMpCMF5Id9+m0yf9p4iE8ie0ohr7gQw8NXUrzBM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=k8+C77Ah0RdbkAqIiwgdeKhU/afbvGxyl60JBrAnaCG5Xck6y2uCR2jU7uNK6BF5C KS9Fl4gP/d4bCftsCqhMEvsIDDXvAIOGUWRM5J1VJ12sw3JjJoKobU5TJnYrU9612F XF2s4ZsmCCWOZt91j9krbN5Fqu5HGToh7z/5vKuyT8W3CFRZ25JkEmjhe08ZZb655t Jitf8z9hUcfd3aXcYyEEB+jcw9mGxjSVnH56zf15heC1vPH4H0hsUsai4O/djhqZZu 2scZCOmvIa5HEZgZfu3gccxP6p5g7bPBkhiAUJ8k24HkMhu7f37XiYzmxDuc/S+4Ec jwpOp+y6uTh4A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N45xt-1oPykO3rft-0107k9; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 00:36:37 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 7 Feb 2023 18:00:48 +0000") References: <87ilgfsaav.fsf@web.de> <87edr3s6v8.fsf@web.de> <87k00u8cb3.fsf@web.de> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 00:36:37 +0100 Message-ID: <87357havzu.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:URxG869z/S0TdeTGrVuaFkjxLImDV32wGg3+JQW5PhFfVTun8mN Npx/qsX1tijNefcCSkxOroqjaDy6vIWOHbDyHZGJcj8HvtovwbM5TwdyQhO+5x6TZJ1WNa2 kDlzize6C1rW6aSEmyUBZdpdGqKQ0xAAiZWz9yFX1aRWl/qUC43xHxjsRAQF1UfCjPWVMuU WIV4UGVnrKgH1i+S3D+Jg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:E7q8REYdcps=;NrFKyOnkldnH9TnEFUk9U5WC3TR vKfd7UHrNT7j2A26qR3pPWrPtgOyuNc0mW3L9Qk+32JT3LECj8Tq11upIzWkvg2am2pOsIhnZ 9kXRVPRnVLuzexn0s8axKqdkwxzCGp+pxMxs6uijQiVGE2Oext5LhqgeGwWrZM4nqceQ3I7gM nOhmHKw02Om2VU9TYcV6WaKY4GasV3LmkXdf3ToyW8aLEcKvuB0NPlLQ5V8Tje8VOZAJ22V/U i33jX45oqUJ15JdYotdCUuDwoi011T6IqSUszaMvk+NVVGHIhfwoGadRXIICkaOBFLexm/00p jpcSG14IuR8MQdYmZ2Lv29ivx7XAwWyratqMspjD/2cXezMS5jOFxqgUaNgtJYWyFpuzVwEha u38FIxjamPISzu1q4Ra+hWK6XqdFjKAALwByVl0vdwYkeFcwlsZ8LYPbI6ktzwdGCwIz5sK2i /iwt97eZJHhHZ3WiqQDkK7GLpriwwohN6qyovhD+dBOIG3fD/KhuNDnS1CAEkpJlcpQUWYgtz 2+rRBaCnJ399cQmJOIIACPDcw/o4mF4BNHBpB5SAioCWN8qSl9hPFELGx5V3eszpnVrUjFNo7 LzmlDq+YuuxNt5PPgwz4v9kcXgmjsoTKCvtEIIJQ669b4ACbCv0ppEDOG0DV5gD6MY7cpgk3T s5drkl7bJwSbI7IDAqPk9iR+mChz3WYMDlpjtDBXWEa5wxF4BEf0uZtyyIODyVO4P4JA1AUUM frllPmZl6yoh493izA1sQ6q86J++hw/G65ubGqc3OZRwmNFqUN+74wGz3Fhg3Gp9wxDgxovfv AhMNqsb1aQse6Oqy7cYYk+hnolaVyP95IWgrDtvBN8Q/zPoK3KqHHTWuLd6HjmM2jjnu0EHvo yyE9sjwpZsK1dO9b5aMADKu0d2YWyI0qJDbzE3HLYUqsBYK2tY3rTGcLnb76uTVi/5HsUNC9t i/ZygJOPEihNp1Qy4yiv2qS1ALc= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > > It is obvious that the Lisp implementation of > > the "`" macro receives symbolic expressions. > > This is about the Lisp reader. When you write > ",X" in that explanatory comment it's ambiguous > whether "X" is an arbitrary sequence of chars > or some Lisp sexp (read separately after reading > the ","). ",abcd" is handled differently than > ", abcd", as we've gone over several times now. So you want to add to the text that X is an expression? Or anything else? We surely don't want to explain the complete parsing process there. What do you suggest to write in that comment? Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:45:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Andreas Schwab , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16758134694152 (code B ref 61281); Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:45:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2023 23:44:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54245 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPXdU-00014u-Qa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:44:29 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:46499) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPXdS-00014g-4p for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 18:44:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675813451; bh=2U6eXH/JZq3ifaV8qJwKJk4CqELWJEU/CTTStZMWmZA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=FfDxEZ/mygLhHNyrX0dvj/OGas4p5/PTMhnsECcSX15g/KrBmgrRyJfTeJrdboaTh siVk99wNiWmvEk8LSK1I9LHGlTQc0bVC4vz3B/kdAPRGUfoP8YDwny9I5+b6okPW8K H2Ys15Ueq1NluFdUsnGHWPYiMNE0yjZbVU2HpobnHgZi8svTpC82SdKnbKGvzzrQYW YkWWPN9BDQ7BEkaMuN/1QJ/CmbfP9k6/CBq9EEdnnT7pm0hgshgBu9HSIT2pCbg1uT pxX2DnEdCKzqcV1JLh4yPVYPIIWZUJM16U5RX2OlhwMLHpuzgZnyzGKDAjaMgipM1c LVkzEK16yYgoQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MYcll-1p3BGq2Ekd-00ViTb; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 00:44:11 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 7 Feb 2023 18:00:50 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 00:44:10 +0100 Message-ID: <87y1p99h2t.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3YFsFz6emrzd7jj0wspqPBPoXwvCGlHZoMM76tr+Jp0kVRZyVUZ Dhk4JyRPGYWrypwBsdsiTmYpLivRNjhjknWVzzK263jM0Qlz7VYxIM8xxQwxZ46lQvX+jJz fbkzJfjO/0qXi0qvwchcx1f8D2mQ9d2haEio+lPs29ornZBjxgYffRpxjdiMIJ+y7GrhfDP tDNKmLsDrsELunyTjlA8Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:NMe8GOXHtNM=;J66UeJtgvPRBbPefzpl8Khp3aAV iWCD4uFj80caA6oaQ/yQQiUpGa6ZkD5DmtafPZQYn3TKeRY0/hpUmWp83Ok86NI5m/EJgCXTn clvoqHNcZ784UYLRGfYW66TzJeC/tjUeA1/wlEUNDrbCqIVu0UICNIz0rKOyovjkftuV6vU/m LZPCzFezp8OfPLpWF8hd+YWz2Qm+ng7LQ7oprQ26CNqKcc4Zt/8u7UVqqxiqOpdoTJsnNklFj /I8rIeuzICoHGtxF2wQywhRJytK63MQf0ZcYct+NQOE2f895OFcZRDpyJvu1HHnf9jmZ1r+mo 9nzyR0tor0+7NHAQH2O2c286SpCF899KOlAQYF3zmBZLVx73OLBrZtRk6a58Jmefk1zQNWGKo W/+2OyKsjqE89UX+9DrqO+tIaK7bv6q7RH50Hrb/6O++FrCRaQv/D4EW3F4Oq9Nilgwo7TdF3 dNZI0n5mBPvn04+410pkiam5uEige/wVlr89aTyuxqXVR76rmnrnyHSuaeUimSypK4ewD/Yim ixCYjFKaM47S/DcLmYdp7bF03NjNKDCFudZ46xPUJ/inKPUfRgq7ZgL4TQSLb4SI5cVKLBN6r PaUyCEIxTDo/T/wK31vy1E0+I+TiStq9LJQchYS9dLGtCbVniEMcxRbKiFv/qhGOxLg8pGiHA gLSjbfbBn5NYgULan5gZRRzZB+ZB8DpS0MQd+PxT6AHEKTII77hnqJIDUWSIYduLkX1b5d6a+ fc73Sl6jUvk8345eOa7rM4C28NfIDHUZX9XRxIq+Jqu8ns3t5xDqD9/KO4ZaAU7ZYHa7BFkAi D9vN1lG/HvFY3B0Aef63OUa0CHVpFZsAyTrAZ+JaKQqNeQtNbyVFne2xytt3W0I7x1/Q5pMvV /CeYKc1dsvu16HjUmD40/fWVZ8BQvDVaVQWp3jiU8IDhN+TVfF3lzqAHG/rhfCMD1Rxu3nuUX p96M2L856npmVidq/N3iRjnmHOg= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Still, could you please show these uses of bare "\," > explicitly? > > $ clisp -q -x '`\,' > $ clisp -q -x '`(\, x)' | micha> clisp -q -x '`\,' | |,| | micha> clisp -q -x '`(\, x)' | (|,| X) In Emacs we could as well change the symbol (or whatever object) used as "tag" for the expansion of the `,` reader construct. But unless this solves some practical problem, since there is the cost of breaking code, I don't understand why we are still discussing this. You would suggest to make a change like this, Drew? Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 03:10:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Andreas Schwab , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167582575325130 (code B ref 61281); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 03:10:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 03:09:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54422 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPapc-0006XG-RJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 22:09:13 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:51976) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPapa-0006X7-Hg for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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So clisp handles the case right (IMO). It doesn't seem to have this bug, at least. > In Emacs we could as well change the symbol (or > whatever object) used as "tag" for the expansion > of the `,` reader construct. But unless this > solves some practical problem, since there is > the cost of breaking code, I don't understand > why we are still discussing this. >=20 > You would suggest to make a change like this, Drew? I can't speak to the code change that should be made. (But I think I understand you, and yes, I think something like that is what's needed.) I do wish the code behaved solidly, with no such "capture" of occurrences of "\,". But I've already agreed with you that I doubt anyone will fix this, and maybe it's too risky to bother doing that. I don't see the risk so much (if at all) in that some code might exist that depends on the bugged behavior. I seriously doubt that. But (1) I don't know that, and nested etc. backquote expressions can get very complicated. I do expect some risk in someone trying to fix this and ending up causing more problems. That's the code breakage I'd worry about. That's a reason I won't be pretending to have the right code fix. Assuming the bug isn't going to be fixed, I'd propose we just describe the problem in a comment. That can be done with words or with code examples. This thread is already full of both. ;-) From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 03:10:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167582575625147 (code B ref 61281); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 03:10:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 03:09:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54424 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPapg-0006XX-7I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 22:09:16 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:48176) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPapa-0006X5-2E for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 40136ebc-96f1-4e28-12f4-08db0981d5ff X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Feb 2023 03:09:04.8126 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: HsOu8AiP+t8wo1vewJ3rDt2wC66Bx7LC4zlczXL697nm+8CM9pvf611yy3Vof5R3tvlAg68nHhu1D3JhWfs77w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PH0PR10MB4438 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.219,Aquarius:18.0.930,Hydra:6.0.562,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2023-02-07_15,2023-02-06_03,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=307 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2212070000 definitions=main-2302080028 X-Proofpoint-GUID: -SB1e5cY5mrhgBRDGgcW9Hg7wQyZlAT3 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: -SB1e5cY5mrhgBRDGgcW9Hg7wQyZlAT3 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > > It is obvious that the Lisp implementation of > > > the "`" macro receives symbolic expressions. > > > > This is about the Lisp reader. When you write > > ",X" in that explanatory comment it's ambiguous > > whether "X" is an arbitrary sequence of chars > > or some Lisp sexp (read separately after reading > > the ","). ",abcd" is handled differently than > > ", abcd", as we've gone over several times now. >=20 > So you want to add to the text that X is an expression? Or anything > else? We surely don't want to explain the complete parsing process > there. What do you suggest to write in that comment? Dunno. I didn't intend to use ",X" at all. That was from you. I think that should particularly be pointed out in comments is this bug: that "\," evaluates, just like "," does, when inside backquote. And it even splices, like ",@" does. This isn't obvious, even if it might be a rare/corner case. "\," that is not immediately followed by a symbol char is handled as if you'd written ",@" instead. One would (I would) expect a bare "\," to be read as a symbol with no special behavior, just as reading "abc" is (but remove all the double-quotes when reading this, of course). I'm sorry, but now I'm just repeating myself. I really don't have anything more/new to say about this. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:07:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16758471858098 (code B ref 61281); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:07:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 09:06:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54783 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPgPJ-00026V-6t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 04:06:25 -0500 Received: from smtp-out2.suse.de ([195.135.220.29]:51560) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPgPH-00026G-7h for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 04:06:23 -0500 Received: from relay2.suse.de (relay2.suse.de [149.44.160.134]) by smtp-out2.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7249520215; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 09:06:17 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_rsa; t=1675847177; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=MS5DvPiNA7JWy+ZKRazltd/DnjDb/wUnunz0SiNgojo=; b=lN1VpTSQtM1usBYDfvujyav124RXsJ9Nn0/fmFJ6nOoR8Dh5dtPDDFom2m2ya5WeHA/N9d n/sjnpmopC6AVHcLCMXwcHCFgkPhdnfGEOHp2JZ40nj93MtdcTgPJ4Pv3U8iq0NhXsV2JS 6S7TsVJBClgFGWPI3xiamBSMm3KAVNU= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_ed25519; t=1675847177; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=MS5DvPiNA7JWy+ZKRazltd/DnjDb/wUnunz0SiNgojo=; b=qRltV8fKlWjOOeaOKh4t9HKvth21JQ5XPIcJrt07QA6ufyZbSdrQt1gcZhIARzqinZEwQx 3IzWcXDfrvTVGJAA== Received: from hawking.suse.de (unknown [10.168.4.11]) by relay2.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B86C2C141; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 09:06:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by hawking.suse.de (Postfix, from userid 17005) id F36D8442F17; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 10:06:16 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> <87y1p99h2t.fsf@web.de> X-Yow: Tex SEX! The HOME of WHEELS! The dripping of COFFEE!! Take me to Minnesota but don't EMBARRASS me!! Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 10:06:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 8 Feb 2023 03:09:07 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Feb 08 2023, Drew Adams wrote: >> > Still, could you please show these uses of bare "\," >> > explicitly? >> > >> > $ clisp -q -x '`\,' >> > $ clisp -q -x '`(\, x)' >> >> | micha> clisp -q -x '`\,' >> | |,| >> | micha> clisp -q -x '`(\, x)' >> | (|,| X) > > Great. So clisp handles the case right (IMO). It just happens to use different symbols to implement backquote. That Elisp uses symbols with the same spelling as the reader macros is not a bug, only an implementation detail. For clisp, system::unquote has the same magic bahaviour for backquote handling as \, does for Elisp. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:13:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.16758475688686 (code B ref 61281); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:13:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 09:12:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54799 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPgVU-0002G2-1K for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 04:12:48 -0500 Received: from smtp-out2.suse.de ([195.135.220.29]:41562) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPgVS-0002Fn-7U for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 04:12:46 -0500 Received: from relay2.suse.de (relay2.suse.de [149.44.160.134]) by smtp-out2.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979C12091C; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 09:12:40 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_rsa; t=1675847560; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=KMmdKGmhGpEt5yqWvjbeyWvXrq4HkenAsNm7xlXjw+E=; b=j/2ouEyJkcnMT7rZd7+TXRF0PuFPkELlnK2xE1n2dQJrnHZpOwA2udvJfYbYwqJ38lavdl 2sLln4S5L36ZMujfZbhrbRi0ttVtLiMOiXzst2U6aHbXBmXXCiiIC5Vx/ls/VsCZMO0eCt uHqAJdQMbDw8oz3nzseirRCVnWH5/5s= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_ed25519; t=1675847560; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=KMmdKGmhGpEt5yqWvjbeyWvXrq4HkenAsNm7xlXjw+E=; b=3o4QCRlMSGvA5wV2chmr91BIEufNL2Ltzc6rp1okRoap6/3QaxOTXTqvmJcAgbkchL8uuG ORkqxnu9Dpniq2Bg== Received: from hawking.suse.de (unknown [10.168.4.11]) by relay2.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847A32C141; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 09:12:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by hawking.suse.de (Postfix, from userid 17005) id 6AC4F442F17; Wed, 8 Feb 2023 10:12:39 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> X-Yow: A GRAM?? A BRAM... A GROOM... A BROOM... Oh, Yeh!! Wash the ROOM!! Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 10:12:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 7 Feb 2023 18:00:50 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Feb 07 2023, Drew Adams wrote: >> In clisp, backquote is implemented via system::backquote, >> system::unquote and system::splice. Thus the symbol |,| >> has no special meaning. > > If the symbol |,| has no special meaning inside backquote > then that answers my question. That symbol has no special meaning at all. (A reader macro is not a symbol.) -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . ,b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 01:31:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Andreas Schwab , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167590620910334 (code B ref 61281); Thu, 09 Feb 2023 01:31:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 01:30:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56993 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPvlI-0002gc-Mm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 20:30:08 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:53417) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPvlH-0002eX-3t for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 20:30:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675906194; bh=Mhc8k8MMtBVhuCTFh9h+wTCa+92gqJu5bWO7OZis5Rw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=YfqCXRokmPptqMEQkwW/aSgwJeBXJxlWf76Q3pnmr8RhcgGUVOw/6p+SChMC/97U1 XH90ejnzQOV0cw4dqrPiEJaavQd3GyC3dpTlrb9kLt62Fkv5s9g7RpppMjVyK2XMnd sFiPUHc5kZShKM4cfJQYBMY6pUVFxGjsBs/i1SYY0byIyj0SCAoKR7Qi/SPOnUgR9D uvINWqbSTkYWElX6UIxHeic7zbR/p8OqzIKw5NkMdnEq6n3bh4oKZXl7EKs9va10XB ucrj9T8bpTyVVHwCZlU69/X3wgCkHfcGWhEw4YgRUCt6ril1Z7f/AO/MtecNcZJEcT KCQizjGU6x19g== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MI3tF-1pLJ3u3uxb-00FNgo; Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:29:53 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 8 Feb 2023 03:09:07 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> <87y1p99h2t.fsf@web.de> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:29:52 +0100 Message-ID: <87k00rmxrj.fsf_-_@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4nhiS0zt7sYFXAMorIwuqoYTATFIeFMEhseWsPp8GXAN9qZXnwc 81rQSjyri1H7DOvA13C+FWiyRsSBDz5uz2yahW5y7USwj4ygonFtD3tP1Qg+gXRU0l2O5Pu qjzc/tiWG+oyoq6SkLibf5Qx7yiGa0mBEJr0JW2KjRHJRQDFItltgEzz21V6PvMQOglolUS npdH65zSbMS6AQ/0tC41g== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:QzSiFfdkYm0=;Rh1nfB/OTlzL/ykUbXr7Rb2kqmO YkCcn02RVTmg75oLMf9OyiufBIPOCJqM0xMI99ZlACviJYtGz/xk+T9Sng2rDEI8OhchqUp+7 t6v9SLLd/H7DktXp/XK6Ukohn7v/PL7qmm4lm9YFW94FzX4nZLjVwcEheAQ6tI3OJpQ/VFGtp Zr4abuVl6d/JdLmm2/cinmqZomqhYMTwyphlQF3RgV3Zg3AUdOB9EDtrRoA5n2FnxE4Fnxhox Q64CJA1K1ytcDrN50kade3uOcdqBzwI0DlkKMaP3WR3HpJxyQYduwyaVKwWxOw7AHoAY4il1v opLUPIG2rL6jPM4n0gZjsQahfWFyOGM9ZuOWEPThX72SxSJr3eqWWesc2wiwcreRE67uISP3R QZOBUz4jcpRcoolF6ows32P/93jP1h99cel4H/TyngkX/uSLCsALCvS2wTrYnzygnHRiMo3YI ev2eaUsyUtjByym16YhhMrzCdFbZ9Y3JAOzujMSmM/LdQygZva5wH7svrxo0EkbG7iP4AK3MU 2jRvQAhw3ejulg7NMLaS0pC12rj52oPj29AHCTzyeQrNaUL0BS1URVY6rMt/b3wJTvlkbxZVE /lpzpFpBnBz4vaVsPOzFZeNj0TE1eUOXt1rWGcyIAY1QEX3ykoy90MMmjBhwpPJp3pDzDMEJx GSMo2G93fDV5u0MqkZ64dAbQi0yX3CxAMjJ6GFmQpn1GECEJ8mbKZAUGAxOR3orcg/jyAwJox G1bl3fekVAsH9S+FaKSIJ4OlJbhCX++QeDpib0i4X95ylk4ADwDJ/SESIkQ3ZDeef2t/NT+3Y nvjtlzvrBNk7EwljOiWLJC1DSQ6+sonJpUNx2VWIHwOM0Uzb/OE9l6CtSZea+46UJqT6vcf5H jgDdKaJsyeOFxOMw4aW+1R2vVsKewXJCDCTi1MvYrXeI+HEzVk6T/iOQtE/RbWPxSifnTAB+G E+/IptqDnZl2c6k0lMIj1CvmH3I= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > I don't see the risk so much (if at all) in that > some code might exist that depends on the bugged > behavior. I seriously doubt that. I see lots of places alone in the Emacs sources that rely on the behavior. > Assuming the bug isn't going to be fixed, I'd propose we just describe > the problem in a comment. Where should this comment be located? Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . ,b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 01:39:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167590668411116 (code B ref 61281); Thu, 09 Feb 2023 01:39:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 01:38:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57003 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPvsy-0002tD-LG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 20:38:04 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:38569) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPvsw-0002sj-LV for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 20:38:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675906671; bh=20geFd7B/k42I092m7I7Zh4iWo9FiYTAp6vaU5cQWZY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=IqhjhbyIgI6eHt9WDf5sQa/i2+YpvDqicnzOeF3CmWXjQhwux7560GrF+P4OZ+VR7 m9vch+wbKqM5ug5yWar6mVjnvFZLC2Cr8fc0ZeC+bROvr6H/ci6I6fh4cRE3GdJDlD 4x7zIYopwZ9Z23/zRFSAzmIkjeaLLySlwCRQEjnr4dMKFKmuJaI4F3Rqnhzk/HpTMA ptxw4IFKQ7iFjHJSfNEz7NR6mxYvC259KofxJxbLM1wbmSV9cbNBD5g1npjHfritJM JFfcRFbpimZ13Dsl8KIvsEPiIc5mM23/gUeUYpK+RnXJeLNf42jFX3OdSJB6k3D5ps aNqiQdEIAcSJA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mrww5-1olhF41W9F-00nvOA; Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:37:51 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 8 Feb 2023 03:09:04 +0000") References: <87ilgfsaav.fsf@web.de> <87edr3s6v8.fsf@web.de> <87k00u8cb3.fsf@web.de> <87357havzu.fsf@web.de> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:37:48 +0100 Message-ID: <87fsbfmxeb.fsf_-_@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jwzcj3Ra+82BdJBlN8wfz+/h4a87WOjV66Wke+tfuQmhcIE3cil SQHQAq+X5bOBUSEt/hXOk/68moWPwIOxRfKogWAOKkKprO0jfbDaJkiN20ci7IPrtlm1PGA 36ppaRpn3mnz+Anb0j207jTn68Zv08QMJ+GLIfpniMk/OT1PNWbd8qUzeZQC8xYu/S1EN+h W0loxlQzfkVwD4hbXh8Gw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:2cNiQKmW0bA=;Tg5SFLvdalkX049/I6l/WKWBeir WEquznWXqxN5ap8Vc5Rih7eJ5JF8QSIZYDbu9e9RGmluAn99/FH8wFOVEH1m5QpW3drxcShMB vBwkDbhTEXPxgN6UNAybl2/9qAkBJKD2tZQBLHMR0ATgcKGBqM1sl3j8rdfdxICXA3YYFYbgE WO5Zalx4k5TTMyCTAuJoaax9atktuq7yRDxBXYIf70YEjhTn2A88aOUiLrbUiiK1t6XryXuFp 9MqEYosychA05JORtIPd9DGsvH7cacPGMIcP3BK8As8iO/+WIGSXP/MzFqud0AF5PnKHrNeLf 1EHLJU3c4B1XjwVLPs7dRZpcGtOiGLlxKBTe2ig2H0t3mgwcxuKIzgTQniphS3WBTrWcwSRWX tyJB9EicdfhuNsxrNlpOOuyL1uhpNsOtEHNG6UgCJ+Qea+bY5h2iZX0QO2TLewiTCfrj5suIm scWXkH7A9ZWB0J6bvtN+5hbztvDWJkcHElOYH13g8VG2s0jg9ZwOV1pTu95m1tA01lieU7E4w RKXTzpcPMucYBj2tqKZthvWn6OwBkJqQGyykUvDJspNkIaVfOQoFrvh/ulaPqUSs/kirVE16p 70cDXg0K+evI0LEM8vNMMMU/8fcUbEuiMkxWAM5Kmc1YMj1BaeuDQGt4bHQA22fx4QcJMVrMn AlO269coo7QuTLLGS0ko4PedfQvJcKHyg46T/On0VzDJvGEU/Nq1wWEoMX4k9jkwn0GZ47NJq pE3KE9NbeThjb5cP/J2k9WfjZ0cPmYnCowo9FaLcjJivCwV2WFbI32kYtDPRj5u5rQsvnCKX1 C9VkaDpcWU/0uLUgnfiobG9OpHuUFGs3eSpO1GxbXTsEOwfFi9MromE8aIosYZaaHXxcxZty6 n2SVwU8ccVWlC5H9d1OeLOY4J+vu2kELGJQcnTV02YJKtsKdogeOuqDrbAzqRJ9mg3yJBhbMn BgHuGfdHcJTcZg5G+xGVzQA37LY= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Dunno. I didn't intend to use ",X" at all. That > was from you. > > I think that should particularly be pointed out in > comments is this bug: that "\," evaluates, just > like "," does, when inside backquote. And it even > splices, like ",@" does. This isn't obvious, even > if it might be a rare/corner case. So you think that somebody that is able to look up and understand the Lisp part of the implementation of backquote expansion will - after reading the comment that the reader construct expands like ,X -> (\, X) - will _not_ understand that this implies that the symbol \, appearing in a list inside a backquote expression has to be interpreted by backquote? Here we disagree, I can't imagine such a person. Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . ,b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Andreas Schwab , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167590829814079 (code B ref 61281); Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:05:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 02:04:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57027 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPwJ0-0003f1-D3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 21:04:58 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:30216) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPwIv-0003eo-1e for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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I seriously doubt that. >=20 > I see lots of places alone in the Emacs sources that rely on the > behavior. Maybe we mean different things by the bugged behavior? Do you see lots of places where the Emacs sources use "\,"? >=20 > > Assuming the bug isn't going to be fixed, I'd propose we just describe > > the problem in a comment. >=20 > Where should this comment be located? As part of the comment you pointed to, which tries to describe how the code works/behaves? From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . ,b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:11:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167590864914632 (code B ref 61281); Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:11:01 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 02:10:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57032 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPwOf-0003nw-73 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 21:10:49 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:26956) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPwOb-0003nj-0l for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 07d18709-486c-4251-ad36-08db0a42d71e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Feb 2023 02:10:39.5819 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Y8VMVaurA+AbN++SYFnP/dFeatiTEItKwHEhzX+7fE6gdfb7DzziF4PWHsf17su4tQFbaYKqZUPDCTAFrfA5IQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DS7PR10MB5998 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.219,Aquarius:18.0.930,Hydra:6.0.562,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2023-02-08_11,2023-02-08_02,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=541 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2212070000 definitions=main-2302090018 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: l2DuP9Swgj3rgyyXdTA7pWXgmiT6eH4E X-Proofpoint-GUID: l2DuP9Swgj3rgyyXdTA7pWXgmiT6eH4E X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Dunno. I didn't intend to use ",X" at all. That > > was from you. > > > > I think that should particularly be pointed out in > > comments is this bug: that "\," evaluates, just > > like "," does, when inside backquote. And it even > > splices, like ",@" does. This isn't obvious, even > > if it might be a rare/corner case. >=20 > So you think that somebody that is able to look up and understand the > Lisp part of the implementation of backquote expansion will - after > reading the comment that the reader construct expands like ,X -> (\, X) > - will _not_ understand that this implies that the symbol \, appearing in > a list inside a backquote expression has to be interpreted by backquote? >=20 > Here we disagree, I can't imagine such a person. I really have nothing more to say on this. I would just be repeating myself. In any case, we've agreed that it's unlikely that the bug will be fixed. And although I thought at one time that you agreed the bug existed, I'm not so sure now that you did. And as, IIUC, Andreas points out, clisp apparently just substitutes a different char for "," internally when it handles backquote, which just punts the problem to a different corner case (different char). So I guess nothing will be done, and maybe nothing reasonable can be done, for this. From unknown Sun Jun 15 09:02:46 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:17:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61281 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Andreas Schwab , Xie Shynur , "61281@debbugs.gnu.org" <61281@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 61281-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61281.167590897015151 (code B ref 61281); Thu, 09 Feb 2023 02:17:02 +0000 Received: (at 61281) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2023 02:16:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57036 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPwTp-0003wJ-Vn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 21:16:10 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:40505) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPwTl-0003ve-FW for 61281@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 21:16:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1675908952; bh=VD85vwhJ3OuVphXBSN3QnfsyQcAYVWTjS3EqqCHawOs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=XxBfZ4kXj4oV1xwVDqZcHzZcf6syKfl6t80g4zwv8v8AHdj1p6ghHcIwIiBT1QqGS sC0dN4ZVeujYj7uDiGxlxkVNw0nhhVsVD2HHOzwEileKYIyKNc37zvzJQ+Jh9uTpdE EkMxols6EBHsdSZyPXVn7q6wIhWkyCoiNCK22TPKudB3qaJlSrCY/BJnN9ZxQ1XB4o prTKabAslqbKyOmyjY6cjXRL9oUIf9BoZp6FNb5iCoo27tyuLV6YreY2NRuNFyuiVa iJPw5aDwDhWbkXDmWgj+ohacEa/v9zXc+u2xxqOuWqGuoMVTCgxtW5OBryldKgT33z lcRkDDhiW46eg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.57]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MNwjS-1pErhY39su-00OKb1; Thu, 09 Feb 2023 03:15:52 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 9 Feb 2023 02:04:49 +0000") References: <87a61tgdkx.fsf@web.de> <875ycghgv1.fsf@web.de> <871qn4hfte.fsf@web.de> <87fsbju0of.fsf@web.de> <87y1p99h2t.fsf@web.de> <87k00rmxrj.fsf_-_@web.de> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2023 03:15:51 +0100 Message-ID: <87mt5npors.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nrHT50rFS4zu2s2VmvlDFDcuVa/anXX0QV6saeg6nmxHwrzvCpH T4FAuObJ5mACBJaVqcWVkqw542la1qUL1vHb0TmXvc7F2iKg8JRZ+xpZ9/pTKVkwyw7ENRQ UH5TJVMLGJL/0HixJQNOBf5SGL2zmHSE3fycaGlWI0TFeNbdAV0suEgeTrjJkQUzxKLCPcf jNOK7EgV7KUs/dyXocZpA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:99guv1VeXoc=;16VTMMJjWOBvNvYhLxg6dYbJjzH hiIP+abTIiMbza/8XOmFVf/zqIUmBttqh6rh1ukqyLq2lE/vQbmSXmVKWYg8TltqpJYkK88hj 0sYcWBT5r4umYvSblRlVDYBg8Ca36LLWQLRqaZMYpLoya/vFmDZyiEwtRw5j3jRjIJ42Dk1+l LxgGkxSYJt/bLJqZH1IPdMUZy8FazG9abyad9dHJVUxw+gE9UePFzv1mK1lsmgu+1dHyrcY0X RF0jENnr9dkinCU1EM2KtG+7OBsX3XVuxX/SUW0gU/4vrl47uIs+11c0VGfJgfOUY0GFI+brm m1mDN7etbwBZyur9g2C3i7G/vARoDyRrC7Z14dfUB7JCg/jnyoI8rZ2e2onaRt0K8O7pzwdK4 Na1Gy/34Lo4ZlNFLtHWfQlMggQth38TJGJdK3bg2c8YmGqhs6ptdUXiUk1RXRDsKmbXSU7aH0 P4kptEFbRSddog9xB1o7GEBM+aEYkuGQqcZgACC+WfcHhfRWHNiWLPmPpYxCiGMJS1S3V5AYQ sZ3kZj/gBnlRsjgkAKbvzQDxo3rz9zpyKeU/LYwMH2m453kJVvpS6uaOSD13/KnHaGvveE4p4 wXPahUL94icFwgv3EWuLeoBqUt4hOBfiL8po4YWRrQZOBe5zjiMh/iVgkeT/xWa34EcXXsUjS gMwpaythPN5L091g0rc2RZX3qi2V0D9DNvaOh3/Tk6PcnuvnNrQUD9kBEjym+EFRigD1OTH1S nj1IbfYa5PTB+Mz335iQMNbEmj+uz48xIV7pfSbDknBHM5HKdiZYvXX3qwBlRKD/xjeIfc2gS gTZHSTucSvl777uo6fyRoalP9lKDuHk5L+R0I+NDtuowxf8jQ1WLldX/jBIpUCZTNXa1wqVJ0 kMQbyb6tSmKNjUOpmZuNw/hQFvFQdowbCnBWFGUXV/zdFBYe7wHO8kKp1rZrwb9EnG9PAPjwA 2wQtWA== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Maybe we mean different things by the bugged behavior? Do you see > lots of places where the Emacs sources use "\,"? Yes, there are indeed some. A common one is (eq \, (car-safe EXPR)) to test whether some expression is an "unquote expression". Used in code-walker like things - byte compiler, stuff to save expressions in files, pcase, such things. Any package can make use of the reader constructs in non-trivial ways (I mean, uses unrelated to backquote). And the only way to treat such expressions is to test for the expansion. > > > Assuming the bug isn't going to be fixed, I'd propose we just descri= be > > > the problem in a comment. > > > > Where should this comment be located? > > As part of the comment you pointed to, which tries > to describe how the code works/behaves? See my other comment then. Michael.