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Sat, 10 Dec 2022 05:06:57 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::176d:3689:aa5b:91b]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::176d:3689:aa5b:91b%2]) with mapi id 15.20.5880.019; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 05:06:57 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Subject: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior Thread-Topic: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior Thread-Index: AdkMU67qKk3aJHaZQaCzErpc6D/A1g== Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 05:06:56 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|PH8PR10MB6289:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7f072666-038c-4fe0-6517-08dada6c5c92 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --_002_SJ0PR10MB54882BEA866AC19E799D51FBF31F9SJ0PR10MB5488namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These first four defcustoms behave as I expect. The first has a default value of nil - empty alist. The second has a default value of (("key1" :x ("a" "b") ("q"))). The third had a default value of (("key1" :x () :w ("q"))) - one of the plist-entry values is empty. The fourth has a default value of (("key1")) - empty plist. The option should be an alist with elements that have a string key and a plist value. Each plist element has a keyword key and a list of string values. The alist can be empty, any plist can be empty, and any plist-entry value can be empty. ;; OK (defcustom myvar () "..." :group 'emacs :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") :value-type (plist :key-type symbol :options (:x :y :z) :value-type (repeat string)))) ;; OK (defcustom myvar '(("key1" :x ("a" "b") :w ("q"))) "..." :group 'emacs :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") :value-type (plist :key-type (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) :tag "Plist key (keyword)") :options (:x :y :z) :value-type (repeat string)))) ;; OK (defcustom myvar '(("key1" :x () :w ("q"))) "..." :group 'emacs :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") :value-type (plist :key-type (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) :tag "Plist key (keyword)") :options (:x :y :z) :value-type (repeat string)))) ;; OK (defcustom myvar '(("key1")) "..." :group 'emacs :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") :value-type (plist :key-type (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) :tag "Plist key (keyword)") :options (:x :y :z) :value-type (repeat string)))) The first OK example specifies the type of the plist key as just symbol, not as keywordp. But I want to constrain it to be a symbol that's a keyword. The problem occurs when I try to do that AND I use a default value of nil (see next). This one is no good - that's the bug: ;; When click initial INS get prompted for a Lisp expression, get warnings, ;; and Customize buffer contents are changed to just INS DEL while promptin= g. ;; (defcustom myvar () "..." :group 'emacs :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") :value-type (plist :key-type (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) :tag "Plist key (keyword)") :options (:x :y :z) :value-type (repeat string)))) In this case the default value is nil, but the defcustom also specifies the type of plist values as keywordp. I think this definition should work fine. But when you click the sole INS button at the outset you're prompted for a Lisp expression and you simultaneously get a warning that a plist key is not of the right type. If you enter a Lisp expression (e.g. just 42 or whatever) then the Customize buffer appears as it should. I think (1) you shouldn't be prompted for anything and (2) you shouln't get any warning of anything. Warning (widget-bad-default-value):=20 A widget of type restricted-sexp has a bad default value. value: nil match function: widget-restricted-sexp-match match-alternatives: (keywordp) Disable showing Disable logging See attached screenshot, which shows the prompt as well as the Customize buffer during prompting and the *Warnings* buffer. In GNU Emacs 28.2 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2022-09-13 built on AVALON Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19044 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.19044.2251) Configured using: 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation --without-compress-install CFLAGS=3D-O2' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS XPM ZLIB (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) --_002_SJ0PR10MB54882BEA866AC19E799D51FBF31F9SJ0PR10MB5488namp_ Content-Type: image/png; name="throw-emacs-defcustom-bug.png" Content-Description: throw-emacs-defcustom-bug.png Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="throw-emacs-defcustom-bug.png"; size=35101; creation-date="Sat, 10 Dec 2022 04:47:57 GMT"; modification-date="Sat, 10 Dec 2022 05:06:56 GMT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Dec 2022 02:05:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 07:05:11 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Drew Adams From: Mauro Aranda Subject: Re: bug#59937: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937 Cc: 59937@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > These first four defcustoms behave as I expect. > > The first has a default value of nil - empty alist.  The second has a > default value of (("key1" :x ("a" "b") ("q"))).  The third had a default > value of (("key1" :x () :w ("q"))) - one of the plist-entry values is > empty.  The fourth has a default value of (("key1")) - empty plist. > > The option should be an alist with elements that have a string key and a > plist value.  Each plist element has a keyword key and a list of string > values.  The alist can be empty, any plist can be empty, and any > plist-entry value can be empty. > > ;; OK > (defcustom myvar () >   "..." >   :group 'emacs >   :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") >             :value-type >         (plist :key-type symbol >                        :options (:x :y :z) >                        :value-type (repeat string)))) > > ;; OK > (defcustom myvar '(("key1" :x ("a" "b") :w ("q"))) >   "..." >   :group 'emacs >   :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") >             :value-type >         (plist :key-type >                        (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) >                                         :tag "Plist key (keyword)") >                        :options (:x :y :z) >                        :value-type (repeat string)))) > > ;; OK > (defcustom myvar '(("key1" :x () :w ("q"))) >   "..." >   :group 'emacs >   :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") >             :value-type >         (plist :key-type >                        (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) >                                         :tag "Plist key (keyword)") >                        :options (:x :y :z) >                        :value-type (repeat string)))) > > ;; OK > (defcustom myvar '(("key1")) >   "..." >   :group 'emacs >   :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") >             :value-type >         (plist :key-type >                        (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) >                                         :tag "Plist key (keyword)") >                        :options (:x :y :z) >                        :value-type (repeat string)))) > > The first OK example specifies the type of the plist key as just symbol, > not as keywordp.  But I want to constrain it to be a symbol that's a > keyword.  The problem occurs when I try to do that AND I use a default > value of nil (see next). The moment you add a match alternative that won't match the default value of a restricted-sexp widget (which is nil), then you should change the default value for the restricted-sexp widget. > This one is no good - that's the bug: > > ;; When click initial INS get prompted for a Lisp expression, get warnings, > ;; and Customize buffer contents are changed to just INS DEL while prompting. > ;; > (defcustom myvar () >   "..." >   :group 'emacs >   :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") >             :value-type >         (plist :key-type >                        (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) >                                         :tag "Plist key (keyword)") >                        :options (:x :y :z) >                        :value-type (repeat string)))) > > In this case the default value is nil, but the defcustom also specifies > the type of plist values as keywordp.  I think this definition should > work fine. You're looking at a different default value.  The warning comes from Widget, and says that the default value for the restricted-sexp widget is not correct.  It's not talking about the default value for the user option. > But when you click the sole INS button at the outset you're > prompted for a Lisp expression and you simultaneously get a warning that > a plist key is not of the right type.  If you enter a Lisp expression > (e.g. just 42 or whatever) then the Customize buffer appears as it > should.  I think (1) you shouldn't be prompted for anything and (2) you > shouln't get any warning of anything. Examples 2-4 get the same warning once the user clicks the INS button. If you specify a valid default value for the restricted-sexp widget, then the warning is gone. See also bugs #15689, #25152. 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To: Drew Adams References: Content-Language: en-US From: Mauro Aranda In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937 Cc: "59937@debbugs.gnu.org" <59937@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: >> The moment you add a match alternative that won't match the default >> value of a restricted-sexp widget (which is nil), then you should change >> the default value for the restricted-sexp widget. > > I don't even see how/where that widget gets a default > value of nil.  I see `:match-alternatives '(functionp)', > and I see `:value 'ignore'.  I admit that I don't really > understand the code that implements `restricted-sexp'. I think you're looking at the function widget, not at the restricted-sexp widget. M-x widget-browse RET restricted-sexp shows some information about the restricted-sexp widget.  Since there's no :value in that buffer, to find out what could it be you have to navigate to the parent widget, the sexp widget.  That buffer will show: :value nil somewhere, saying the default value for this and derived widgets is nil, unless the code overrides it (by passing a different :value). > (And I'd think that I shouldn't really need to understand it.) I agree.  Below I'll try to focus on the behavior and not on the implementation. >>  > (defcustom myvar () >>  >   "..." >>  >   :group 'emacs >>  >   :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") >>  >                 :value-type >>  >                 (plist :key-type >>  >                        (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) >>  >                                         :tag "Plist key (keyword)") >>  >                        :options (:x :y :z) >>  >                        :value-type (repeat string)))) >>  > >>  > In this case the default value is nil, but the defcustom also >>  > specifies the type of plist values as keywordp.  I think this >>  > definition should work fine. >> >> You're looking at a different default value. >> The warning comes from Widget, and says that the default >> value for the restricted-sexp widget is not >> correct.  It's not talking about the default value >> for the user option. > > Note that in bug #25152 I expressed my disagreement > with closing the bug - IMO, it's not fixed. > > I don't understand how a defcustom should be bothering > with (working around) a default value for the widget > that's defined for `restricted-sexp'. > > The default value of the option is the only default > value that should matter, no?  If the initial (i.e. > default) value of the option is nil, then the alist > is nil, which means it has no elements, which means > there are no plists. Once again, I think you're focusing on a different default value. The warning shows up when trying to insert a new element, right?  At that moment, the user asked for a widget to edit, and like every other widget, it gets created with a default value.  That value should be a valid one. If it helps, take these two examples: (defcustom foo nil   "..."   :type '(repeat (function))) Click INS and you'll see a new editable field with the value ignore. That's the default value for the function widget.  You can check it with M-x widget-browse RET function Now take a look at this: (defcustom foo nil   "..."   :type '(repeat (restricted-sexp                   :match-alternatives (functionp)))) Click INS and you'll get the warning.  The default value for the restricted-sexp widget is nil, as I said, and of course: (functionp nil) => nil > So it's impossible to even speak about applying some > condition to a plist element.  Such a test (which is > what `restricted-sexp' defines) is never - can never > be, logically - applied to any plist element because > no such elements exist in this default case. > To me, this is just, well, a bug.  A bug in the > definition of widget `restricted-sexp', I guess (?). > > But a priori I'd think the bug is not in the definition > of `restricted-sexp' but in the definition of anything > that uses it.  To me, widget `restricted-sexp' just > shouldn't apply at all in a context such as described in > this bug: there's _nothing to check_ with a predicate > that's used to check each list element - there are no > elements. The elements begin to exist the moment the user asks to insert a new element with INS.  I think this is as it should be.  The restricted-sexp widget works fine given a valid default value according to the :match-alternatives or :match passed when defining it. As I said in Bug#25152, the ELisp manual says: ‘:value DEFAULT’      Provide a default value.      If ‘nil’ is not a valid value for the alternative, then it is      essential to specify a valid default with ‘:value’. If you're asking it to be valid only with keywords, then the definition should specify something that: (keywordp SOMETHING) => t > To me, `null' as a predicate doesn't apply either. > This isn't about testing whether some plist element > is nil.  Nothing about the plist should be checked, > because there's no plist!  There's certainly not a > plist with nil elements - now should predicate `null' > help here (but it does!)? As I said, when the user clicks INS, then there is a plist: the one being edited. > And I can't tell whether you think there is a bug > or not.  The duplicate bugs were closed (by Lars), > after you tried to improve things by providing a > warning.  Though I suppose it was good to provide > the warning, I don't see that the bug is fixed at all. I do think the warning should be there.  The defcustom writer can see it when testing the defcustom, or a user can report it to the developer. With regards to the restricted-sexp widget implementation, I do think it is a bug, but I didn't see a safe way to fix it back then.  I'll try to take another look, but I'm no smarter than I was :-(. > And I'm (still) afraid that any user (including the > person writing the defcustom and testing it) won't > (1) understand what's going on and (2) be able to > figure out how to fix the `restricted-sexp' to work > around the problem.  Does always adding `null' take > care of it? If people think the warning message is not good enough, I'm certain someone can think of a way to improve it; I couldn't. > I just now tried the _two_ alternative workarounds > for `restricted-sexp' you showed in the context of > bug #25152: (1) add `:value ignore' or (2) add > predicate `null' to the list of predicates. > > In the case of the example in this bug (#59937) > it looks like #1 doesn't work - you get the same > warning etc.  But #2 works. Try to pass a valid default value for the restricted-sexp widget. If you're asking it to only match keywords, then any keyword does the trick. >> Examples 2-4 get the same warning once the user clicks the INS button. >> If you specify a valid default value for the restricted-sexp widget, >> then the warning is gone.  See also bugs #15689, #25152. > > Expecting a defcustom definer to understand this > and figure out what a "valid default value for > the restricted-sexp widget" might be, is a bridge > too far, IMO. I don't think so.  The defcustom definer is specifying the matching alternatives, he/she should be able to think of a valid default value. Maybe having some examples in the documentation could help here. I could write one if you and others think it could be helpful. > At my present, poor state of understanding this, > about all I could tell someone is to add `null' > as a predicate.  I couldn't explain why or how > that works.  I can't see how/why any of the > predicates would/should get called if the value > of the option is (). > > Anyway, I'm _grateful_ to you for pointing this > out (again), and for pointing to bugs #15689 and > #25152.  You're definitely the king of widgets, > and we're very lucky to have you involved.  Thx. Thanks, but I do not think I'm worthy of that title. > I am curious whether you think there's actually > a bug or not.  It's hard for me to believe that > we should expect _anyone_ defining a defcustom > (let alone anyone using Customize) to understand > the `restricted-sexp' widget, what it requires > wrt its "default value", and how to adjust a > defcustom to give it what it needs, to DTRT. I think a better behavior would be to avoid the prompting altogether (there should be no prompt at that moment, for starters).  But again, this situation arises when there is a bug on the defcustom :type, so I'd be happier if people can help with improving the warning message. 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Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#59937: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior To: Drew Adams References: Content-Language: en-US From: Mauro Aranda In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937 Cc: "59937@debbugs.gnu.org" <59937@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: >>  > Expecting a defcustom definer to understand this >>  > and figure out what a "valid default value for >>  > the restricted-sexp widget" might be, is a bridge >>  > too far, IMO. >> >> I don't think so.  The defcustom definer is specifying the matching >> alternatives, he/she should be able to think of a valid default >> value. > > How does s?he define/provide a default value for the > `restricted-sexp' widget?  I see no way to do that. It's the very first keyword mentioned under the Type Keywords node in the ELisp manual.  Usage would be like this: (defcustom foo nil   "..."   :type '(repeat (restricted-sexp                   :value :key                   :tag "Keyword"                   :match-alternatives (keywordp)))) Clicking INS creates a restricted-sexp without trouble. > Or did you mean that s?he should always provide, within > the _option's_ default value, a value for each part of > it that corresponds to a `restricted-sexp'? I didn't mean that.  I meant something like the code above. >> Maybe having some examples in the documentation could help here. I >> could write one if you and others think it could be helpful. > > I _think_ I understand this now.  The problem is that for > the Customize UI to present a field for inputting/defining > the part of the option value that corresponds to a plist > key (which is defined by a `restricted-sexp'), it needs to > know just what kind of input/edit widget to build.  It > needs to build an editable-field that also demands respect > of the `restricted-sexp' predicates. Yes. > And that's the case whether or not the _option's_ default > value has a part that corresponds to a plist key.  (If yes, > the default value must match the `restricted-sexp', if no, > you're prompted for the sexp type, so it knows what kind > of field to make.) > > And yes, a simple example with `restricted-sexp' would > help (maybe 2 examples: bad & good). I'll work on a patch some day this week, then. > The idea/problem isn't limited to `restricted-sexp', IIUC. > But in other cases it's much less likely to be a gotcha, > because the parts of the defcustom value that correspond > to each field in the Customize UI will have types that > correspond to existing widgets (they don't require > additional input/prompting to know what kind of UI field > to create). Yes. > The problem really stems, I guess, from the fact that > `restricted-sexp' can involve any kinds of predicates, > and depending on what those do, the UI field can be > different.  Put differently, the UI field takes into > account the `restricted-sexp' predicates.  But the > prompting does not take them into account! I'd say don't focus too much on the prompt.  It really shouldn't be there, and I consider it a bug in the Widget code, but it's really an implementation detail.  Without going into a lot of details, we want to READ a string like this: (read var) where VAR is a string, the representation of the value of the widget, whatever that is, but because the widget's value didn't match, it is not a string that we read and VAR is nil (Note: not "nil", but nil), so we end up calling (read nil) and that's the unintended prompt. > My thoughts about this - let me know what you think: > > 1. The warning(s) are not very helpful.  They will > mainly confuse, I think. > > First, end users _will_ see them, as the defcustom > author may not have tested every possibility well. > > Second, many defcustom authors also won't understand > them. I don't know if you're suggesting to improve it or to get rid of it. I'd like to make it more helpful, as I think it should be there. > 2. I think a big improvement could be to make use of > any :tag that the defcustom author provides for the > `restricted-sexp' field - using the :tag also as the > prompt, instead of "Lisp expression: ".  When you see > that generic prompt you have _no clue_ what it wants, > or why.  The :tag should tell you what to enter. I don't think that's an improvement because of what I said above. No prompt should be there for starters.  At least that's what I understand about the code. Note that in Bug#25152 you ended up with a weird buffer state after hitting C-g at that prompt.  That's because the Widget library is not ready to take user input at that moment. > 3. Don't show any warning when prompting.  Just try > to have the inputting itself be clearer (#2). Because of my response, I don't think #3 applies.  I hope you agree with me after reading my response. > With those changes, the manual could also be improved: > > (1) Tell defcustom definers that if they use > `restricted-sexp' then good practice is to provide a > :tag for the field.  And tell them that the :tag will > also be used as a prompt for creating the appropriate > editable field. Here again, I don't think this is the path we want to follow.  And the manual already emphasizes that providing a valid default value is essential, when nil isn't it. > (2) Explain that such prompting happens whenever the > default value of the option doesn't provide a value > for each of its parts that corresponds to the use of > a `restricted-sexp'. As I said, I consider the prompt a bug in the Widget code, so I don't think we should mention it in docs. >>  > I am curious whether you think there's actually >>  > a bug or not.  It's hard for me to believe that >>  > we should expect _anyone_ defining a defcustom >>  > (let alone anyone using Customize) to understand >>  > the `restricted-sexp' widget, what it requires >>  > wrt its "default value", and how to adjust a >>  > defcustom to give it what it needs, to DTRT. >> >> I think a better behavior would be to avoid the prompting altogether >> (there should be no prompt at that moment, for starters).  But again, >> this situation arises when there is a bug on the defcustom :type, so I'd >> be happier if people can help with improving the warning message. > > See above. > > I don't think there's a bug in the defcustoms in > the examples shown.  And I do think users should be > prompted if Emacs needs to know what kind of input > (UI) field to create.  And I don't think we should > show any warnings.  We can raise an error if the > user input is, in the end, invalid (and I think we > already take care of that). We'll have to disagree here, about two things. 1.  I still think there's a bug in the defcustoms.  Any widget needs a valid default value, and it's up to the person that's defining the widget to provide it.  If he/she doesn't, then that's a bug. 2.  I do think a warning (or an error) is in place. > I may still be misunderstanding things.  Let me > know.  But if so then I'm guessing others will also > misunderstand. I think you understand now, but the prompt being there is really confusing (it was to me when I first read your bug report in Bug#25152).  Hopefully I clarified a little more with my response. > The current state is, I think, poor > support for the flexible, powerful feature that is > `restricted-sexp'.  Understandable, but we should > somehow try to do better. > > I, for one, wish more definers of defcustoms spent > more time defining tighter types.  And often that > could mean using `restricted-sexp'. > > FWIW, this bug report came directly from a user > question on emacs.SE, here: > > https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/74913 I missed that.  I usually lurk on SE for questions with custom or widget tags, but you do a better job than me :-). > Thanks for your efforts with this. You're welcome, I'm happy to help. 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e19-20020a4a91d3000000b004a09c4aceb6sm537172ooh.46.2022.12.14.04.40.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Dec 2022 04:40:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:40:36 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#59937: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior To: Drew Adams References: <533dba58-e543-f356-664f-5dfa0b85467c@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Mauro Aranda In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937 Cc: "59937@debbugs.gnu.org" <59937@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: >>  > The problem really stems, I guess, from the fact that >>  > `restricted-sexp' can involve any kinds of predicates, >>  > and depending on what those do, the UI field can be >>  > different.  Put differently, the UI field takes into >>  > account the `restricted-sexp' predicates.  But the >>  > prompting does not take them into account! >> >> I'd say don't focus too much on the prompt.  It really shouldn't be >> there, and I consider it a bug in the Widget code, but it's really an >> implementation detail.  Without going into a lot of details, we want to >> READ a string like this: (read var) where VAR is a string, the >> representation of the value of the widget, whatever that is, but because >> the widget's value didn't match, it is not a string that we read and VAR >> is nil (Note: not "nil", but nil), so we end up calling (read nil) and >> that's the unintended prompt. > > To me (so far): > > I'd say don't focus too much on how the value is > currently read (whether the code gives nil etc.) ;-). > > defcustom definers _will_ sometimes (maybe usually) > not use :value for a `restricted-sexp'.  Without > prompting (regardless of how its read, though it > should be read in a good way), Customize apparently > can't create the (sub)widget that corresponds to > the `restricted-sexp'.  So I think the user needs > to be prompted - no way around that, no? Oh, I think I see a way around that now.  I think the following will take care of: 1.  Being able to create the restricted-sexp (sub)widget even if the default value isn't valid. (Which I think it's one of your main points throughout the bug report) 2.  Being able to do it without prompting or whatsoever. (Which is one of my main points in this conversation). When the restricted-sexp widget has to be created, if there's a valid default value we create it with that one (like I showed in my previous message), but if there's not we create it empty. Let me know if you agree with that. > And in the case where we need to prompt, why not > read taking the predicates into account?  IOW, why > shouldn't we do the same thing we do when you enter > text in the editable field: require the predicates > to be satisfied? > > I repeat that question, as you didn't speak to it. > If we need to prompt, and we want to get reasonable > input at the prompt, why not apply the predicates > that we know the value must satisfy?  Why instead > let a user enter any old string, providing invalid > input? As I've said, I don't think we need to (nor want to) prompt.  I think the prompt there is just an accident, and I would like to avoid it. Sorry if I sound stubborn about this, but I'm convinced that prompting at that time of the widget's creation can be really harmful. >>  > My thoughts about this - let me know what you think: >>  > >>  > 1. The warning(s) are not very helpful.  They will >>  > mainly confuse, I think. >>  > >>  > First, end users _will_ see them, as the defcustom >>  > author may not have tested every possibility well. >>  > >>  > Second, many defcustom authors also won't understand >>  > them. >> >> I don't know if you're suggesting to improve it or to get rid of it. >> I'd like to make it more helpful, as I think it should be there. > > I think it's just a liability and should be removed. > But clearly you understand all of this much better > than I. > > My overall feeling is: > > 1. We should never need to point out that there's > such a problem (I think accepting only valid input > at a prompt should obviate the problem). > > 2. Warnings are in general not a good idea.  Quite > different from messages (echo area) and errors. > (Just a personal opinion, no doubt.) > > 3. If we can't avoid the problem (see #1) then end > users will see the warnings, and that will only > confuse them.  The warnings will confuse defcustom > definers as well, no matter how well they're worded. I thought I was doing an improvement by giving the warning, since providing invalid default values is somewhat common.  I've seen things like: (defcustom foo nil   "..."   :type '(repeat (function :value t))) And I would like to make more evident these kind of errors.  But if we find a way to cope with an invalid default value for the restricted-sexp widget, then it might be fine to remove it (I'm not so sure yet). >>  > 2. I think a big improvement could be to make use of >>  > any :tag that the defcustom author provides for the >>  > `restricted-sexp' field - using the :tag also as the >>  > prompt, instead of "Lisp expression: ".  When you see >>  > that generic prompt you have _no clue_ what it wants, >>  > or why.  The :tag should tell you what to enter. >> >> I don't think that's an improvement because of what I said above. No >> prompt should be there for starters.  At least that's what I understand >> about the code. > > I don't think you've said why/how you think > there's no need for prompting.  Is this about > the returning-nil-instead-of-a-string thing? > If so, sure, if you can remove the need to > prompt altogether, great. Because my understanding is that in (read var) it was always expected that var holds a string, whatever that is. > My understanding about why/when the prompt is > needed is stated above.  What do you do if no > :value is provided for the `restricted-sexp' > and the default option value doesn't fill in > a default for that field either? > > Maybe you're saying that you can fix the code > so it creates the right kind of editable field, > based only on the `restricted-sexp' predicates, > i.e., without needing any default value for > that field. > > If so, great!  That's what I was saying from > the beginning: wid-edit knows how to create > the field UI, so why does it need a default > value for the field to do so?  Of what (real) > use is the default value? Yes, thanks to your response I was able to see a way to create the editable field (with value ""), when there's no valid default value. I really hope we are in agreement here that that approach is a good one to follow. >> Note that in Bug#25152 you ended up with a weird buffer state after >> hitting C-g at that prompt.  That's because the Widget library is not >> ready to take user input at that moment. > > I'm not sure what that's about, e.g. whether > it's something else or related to the same > problem we've been talking about here.  Is > that about the fact that if you fall into the > problem (e.g., you get the warnings) then the > UI keeps adding another INS DEL pair? I was trying to make the point that prompting at that moment can result in bad things: we are not ready to process a quit, to catch an error or whatever, so the whole UI breaks. >>  > 3. Don't show any warning when prompting.  Just try >>  > to have the inputting itself be clearer (#2). >> >> Because of my response, I don't think #3 applies.  I hope you agree with >> me after reading my response. > > See above.  Clearly I still don't understand > this well.  If you understand what I'm saying, > then that's enough.  I trust your judgment > (and your knowledge of the problem). > > From my point of view, neither users nor > defcustom definers should be bothered with > warnings nor incomprehensible prompts (nor > any prompts at all, if Emacs can do without > them). Hopefully we can do without the prompt; see my idea above. > And definers ideally shouldn't need to specify > default values for such fields - the set of > predicates should be able to define what kind > of UI field is needed. I'm not sure if I understand what you say here.  I don't think it's possible to figure out a good value to use as a default from the predicates: that's why my idea is about creating it with the empty string. >>  > With those changes, the manual could also be improved: >>  > >>  > (1) Tell defcustom definers that if they use >>  > `restricted-sexp' then good practice is to provide a >>  > :tag for the field.  And tell them that the :tag will >>  > also be used as a prompt for creating the appropriate >>  > editable field. >> >> Here again, I don't think this is the path we want to follow.  And the >> manual already emphasizes that providing a valid default value is >> essential, when nil isn't it. > > Why is a default value essential?  Why can't the > right editable field (UI) be created based on > the `restrictive-sexp' definition, i.e., its > predicates?  Why is a default value needed? > > I create an option using :value, as you suggested: > > (defcustom myvar () >   "..." >   :group 'emacs >   :type '(alist :key-type (string :tag "Alist key (string):") >             :value-type >         (plist :key-type >                        (restricted-sexp :match-alternatives (keywordp) >                                         :tag "Plist key (keyword)" >                     :value :x) ; <============== >                        :options (:x :y :z) >                        :value-type (repeat string)))) > > I click INS to get the fields for the alist key > and the options (checkboxes). > > I click the INS (after the checkboxes), to get > the fields for the plist: > > INS DEL : >           Plist key (keyword): :x >           Repeat: >           INS > > Now suppose I _remove_ that :x in the editable > field.  That's the state I'd like to get without > having to specify :value.  Is it doable? Then maybe you agree with me that creating it with the empty string is a good enough solution.  I'll wait for your confirmation. > All fields are present (for one alist entry with > one plist entry).  None of them are filled in > (beyond the initiative of starting to create an > alist entry and a plist entry). > > I don't think any default values were really > needed to get there - or at least none should be > needed, I'm guessing. > > I think we agree that Customize can't do that > today: it can't build the UI for a field unless > it knows what its default value is.  (Correct?) > > But is that a necessary (logical) restriction? > Does the default value actually help with the > definition of the kind of field needed? > > I don't get that.  I'd think that all that's > needed to define the plist key field is the set > of predicates in the `restricted-sexp'.  Of what > use/need is the default value, for creating that > UI field? > > Sorry this is taking so much of your time.  If > you feel you understand what I'm missing, and > it doesn't matter, please just do whatever you > think is right.  I do hope that we can somehow > do away with the warnings - and the prompt as > well, if possible. Oh, don't worry.  It is a pleasure for me to contribute to Emacs with the few bug reports I can, and this is one of them. >> We'll have to disagree here, about two things. >> >> 1.  I still think there's a bug in the defcustoms.  Any widget needs a >> valid default value, and it's up to the person that's defining the >> widget to provide it.  If he/she doesn't, then that's a bug. > > I've understood that now.  I don't understand > why it's the case, however.  What's the reason > we can't create the plist field shown above > (which requires the plist key field value to be > `keywordp') without providing a default value? > > Of what real use is the default value?  That I > don't get. Maybe it's not very useful, and it is just a current limitation of the code.  But one can say that the default value at least shows an example of what's expected.  I'm not too convinced of that point of view, so don't take it too seriously. >> but the prompt being there is really confusing > > I agree with that.  I feel doubly so about the > warnings, however.  I made a suggestion to help > get better prompting.  (But I agree that if you > could do away with the prompt altogether that > would be good.) > >> (it was to me when I first read your bug report in >> Bug#25152).  Hopefully I clarified a little more with my response. > > Yes and no, I'm afraid.  I don't get why a > default is needed, to construct the UI field. > (I understand that it _is_ needed; I don't > understand why that is.) > > And I don't understand why, if a value is > needed and missing, we wouldn't need to prompt > for it.  IOW: if we need a value, then I think > we need to prompt for it. > > If we don't need a value then great! So, would you agree to creating the restricted-sexp widget with an empty editable field, in case the default value is not valid? Then the need to provide a valid default value is not so strong anymore (but still should be encouraged, I think), and Customize can work better and more intuitively when there isn't a valid default value. 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2002:a05:6871:786:b0:143:4c24:a77 with SMTP id o6-20020a056871078600b001434c240a77mr14703659oap.32.1671056433502; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:20:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.234] ([181.228.28.240]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j18-20020a4adf52000000b004a085ddc771sm2730122oou.6.2022.12.14.14.20.31 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:20:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5a25029e-f20b-4c17-2bba-0b4bf7510a69@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 19:20:29 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#59937: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior Content-Language: en-US To: Drew Adams References: <533dba58-e543-f356-664f-5dfa0b85467c@gmail.com> From: Mauro Aranda In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937 Cc: "59937@debbugs.gnu.org" <59937@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: >> Oh, I think I see a way around that now.  I think the following will >> take care of: >> >> 1.  Being able to create the restricted-sexp (sub)widget even if the >> default value isn't valid. >> (Which I think it's one of your main points throughout the bug report) >> >> 2.  Being able to do it without prompting or whatsoever. >> (Which is one of my main points in this conversation). > > Fabulous! > >> When the restricted-sexp widget has to be created, if there's a valid >> default value we create it with that one (like I showed in my previous >> message), but if there's not we create it empty. >> >> Let me know if you agree with that. > > 100%.  I hope you can do it without too much trouble. > It will make a big difference, I think, including > perhaps in how much people make use of `restricted-sexp'. > >> As I've said, I don't think we need to (nor want to) prompt.  I think >> the prompt there is just an accident, and I would like to avoid it. >> Sorry if I sound stubborn about this, but I'm convinced that prompting >> at that time of the widget's creation can be really harmful. > > I was seeing prompting only as a necessity as long as the code > requires a value before it can create the UI field for the > `restricted-sexp'.  If you can dispense with that need then great! > Certainly it would be much better not to have any prompting > (especially not with just the default prompt). Great! I'll work on it.  I hope I don't find any surprises. >> I've seen things like: >> (defcustom foo nil >>    "..." >>    :type '(repeat (function :value t))) >> >> And I would like to make more evident these kind of errors.  But if we >> find a way to cope with an invalid default value for the restricted-sexp >> widget, then it might be fine to remove it (I'm not so sure yet). > > I thought it already coped with invalid input. > I guess I was mistaken.  It definitely should. > > Generally, all Customize UI fields (including > buttons, checkboxes, etc.) do check the input > for validity, I think.  Not necessarily at the > time you edit but at least when you try to set > the value to what your editing resulted in. Yes, Customize checks at the time of creation (and inserts "(mismatch)" when the value isn't valid), and at the time of setting/saving. But the Widget code does not check when creating the widget. >> Yes, thanks to your response I was able to see a way to create the >> editable field (with value ""), when there's no valid default value. > > Really glad I could contribute something to this, > by my incessant arguing/questioning. ;-) > I appreciate your working on this.  I doubt that > anyone else would try to tackle it. :-) >>  > And definers ideally shouldn't need to specify >>  > default values for such fields - the set of >>  > predicates should be able to define what kind >>  > of UI field is needed. >> >> I'm not sure if I understand what you say here.  I don't think it's >> possible to figure out a good value to use as a default from the >> predicates: that's why my idea is about creating it with the empty >> string. > > Ah.  Maybe we do disagree, in the sense that I still > don't understand. > > Is there a _logical_ requirement that there be a > value, in order to create the editable field for > the `restricted-sexp'?  I don't think there should > be. > > That's different from the need for a value because > the current code works that way. > > But I really don't see why a value is needed.  All > the code needs to do is create an editable field > that expects text that satisfies the predicates, > no?  Of what (logical) use is the ("default") value? I think you're right on point.  It's just that the code works that way, and makes assumptions that there is always going to be a value (default or edited). >> So, would you agree to creating the restricted-sexp widget with an empty >> editable field, in case the default value is not valid? > > In case it's missing, definitely. > > In case it's not valid?  I guess so, but in that > case it would be good to signal an error (somehow), > or a message saying that it's invalid and so will > be ignored (create the field without any value). > >> Then the need to provide a valid default value is not so strong anymore >> (but still should be encouraged, I think), and Customize can work better >> and more intuitively when there isn't a valid default value. > > It all sounds good to me.  Looking forward to > whatever you come up with.  Thx. I'll see what I can do in the next days.  Thanks! 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Wed, 04 Jan 2023 14:31:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 19:31:27 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#59937: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior Content-Language: en-US To: Drew Adams References: <533dba58-e543-f356-664f-5dfa0b85467c@gmail.com> <5a25029e-f20b-4c17-2bba-0b4bf7510a69@gmail.com> From: Mauro Aranda In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937 Cc: "59937@debbugs.gnu.org" <59937@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Drew Adams writes: >> I'll see what I can do in the next days.  Thanks! > > Hi Mauro.  Any news on this?  I know it's been > a holiday season; just checking.  Thx. Hi Drew.  Sorry, I'll try to make time to look at this, but I'm swamped with work right now. 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Sun, 16 Jul 2023 16:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9P1305mPz0FgVXXTxA02g6dt" Message-ID: <48440e7d-1c21-fd75-6ebb-c3dbff2f6038@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 20:00:40 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#59937: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior Content-Language: en-US To: "59937@debbugs.gnu.org" <59937@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <533dba58-e543-f356-664f-5dfa0b85467c@gmail.com> <5a25029e-f20b-4c17-2bba-0b4bf7510a69@gmail.com> From: Mauro Aranda In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937 Cc: Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9P1305mPz0FgVXXTxA02g6dt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Drew, I'm sorry it took me so long to actually take a look at this.  I had to reread the conversation to put myself back into topic. As I said in https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=59937#26 I was looking for a way to: 1. Being able to create the restricted-sexp widget, even if the default value for it isn't valid. 2. Being able to do it without prompting the user. That's what the attached patch does.  AFAIU, we both agreed that that approach was a good enough fix for this bug, so that the behavior of certain defcustoms is less confusing.  We didn't really agree back then about the warning, and I'm guessing that we still disagree on that, so I didn't change anything about the warning. --------------9P1305mPz0FgVXXTxA02g6dt Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Avoid-prompting-when-creating-a-restricted-sexp-widg.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename*0="0001-Avoid-prompting-when-creating-a-restricted-sexp-widg.pa"; filename*1="tch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSAxMjk2OWUzYjhiNDBjNWFmMzkyMDk5OTNjMGEzMWU2YjNiY2I0YTEwIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBNYXVybyBBcmFuZGEgPG1hdXJvb2FyYW5kYUBnbWFp bC5jb20+CkRhdGU6IFN1biwgMTYgSnVsIDIwMjMgMTk6NDY6NTQgLTAzMDAKU3ViamVjdDog W1BBVENIXSBBdm9pZCBwcm9tcHRpbmcgd2hlbiBjcmVhdGluZyBhIHJlc3RyaWN0ZWQtc2V4 cCB3aWRnZXQKCiogbGlzcC93aWQtZWRpdC5lbCAocmVzdHJpY3RlZC1zZXhwKTogVHVybiB2 YWx1ZSBpbnRvIGEgc3RyaW5nIGJlZm9yZQpyZWFkaW5nLgood2lkZ2V0LWZpZWxkLXZhbHVl LWNyZWF0ZSk6IEd1YXJkIGFnYWluc3QgdmFsdWUgYmVpbmcgbmlsLCBzbyB0aGUKZmllbGQg Y2FuIGJlIGNyZWF0ZWQgZXZlbiBpZiB0aGUgd2lkZ2V0IGhhcyBhIGJhZCBkZWZhdWx0IHZh bHVlLgooQnVnIzU5OTM3KQotLS0KIGxpc3Avd2lkLWVkaXQuZWwgfCA3ICsrKysrLS0KIDEg ZmlsZSBjaGFuZ2VkLCA1IGluc2VydGlvbnMoKyksIDIgZGVsZXRpb25zKC0pCgpkaWZmIC0t Z2l0IGEvbGlzcC93aWQtZWRpdC5lbCBiL2xpc3Avd2lkLWVkaXQuZWwKaW5kZXggMjM0ZjNk OWI3NGQuLmFhZWMyMzYwZGI4IDEwMDY0NAotLS0gYS9saXNwL3dpZC1lZGl0LmVsCisrKyBi L2xpc3Avd2lkLWVkaXQuZWwKQEAgLTIxMjcsNyArMjEyNyw4IEBAIHdpZGdldC1maWVsZC12 YWx1ZS1jcmVhdGUKIAk7OyBgd2lkZ2V0LXNldHVwJyBpcyBjYWxsZWQuCiAJKG92ZXJsYXkg KGNvbnMgKG1ha2UtbWFya2VyKSAobWFrZS1tYXJrZXIpKSkpCiAgICAgKHdpZGdldC1wdXQg d2lkZ2V0IDpmaWVsZC1vdmVybGF5IG92ZXJsYXkpCi0gICAgKGluc2VydCB2YWx1ZSkKKyAg ICAod2hlbiB2YWx1ZQorICAgICAgKGluc2VydCB2YWx1ZSkpCiAgICAgKGFuZCBzaXplCiAJ ICg8IChsZW5ndGggdmFsdWUpIHNpemUpCiAJIChpbnNlcnQtY2hhciA/XHMgKC0gc2l6ZSAo bGVuZ3RoIHZhbHVlKSkpKQpAQCAtMzY1NSw3ICszNjU2LDkgQEAgJ3Jlc3RyaWN0ZWQtc2V4 cAogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgdmFsdWUKICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICh3aWRnZXQtZ2V0IHdpZGdldCA6bWF0Y2gpCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAod2lkZ2V0LWdldCB3aWRnZXQgOm1hdGNoLWFsdGVybmF0aXZlcykpCi0g ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDp3YXJuaW5nKSkKKyAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgOndhcm5pbmcpCisgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgOzsgTWFrZSBz dXJlIHdlIHdpbGwgYHJlYWQnIGEgc3RyaW5nLgorICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IChzZXRxIHZhbHVlIChwcmluMS10by1zdHJpbmcgdmFsdWUpKSkKICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgKHJlYWQgdmFsdWUpKSkKIAogKGRlZnVuIHdpZGdldC1yZXN0cmljdGVkLXNl eHAtbWF0Y2ggKHdpZGdldCB2YWx1ZSkKLS0gCjIuMzQuMQoK --------------9P1305mPz0FgVXXTxA02g6dt-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 17 11:30:18 2023 Received: (at 59937) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.234] ([186.127.128.249]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bc28-20020a056808171c00b003a1f359ba4esm6970638oib.14.2023.07.17.09.21.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:21:34 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#59937: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior Content-Language: en-US To: Drew Adams References: <533dba58-e543-f356-664f-5dfa0b85467c@gmail.com> <5a25029e-f20b-4c17-2bba-0b4bf7510a69@gmail.com> <48440e7d-1c21-fd75-6ebb-c3dbff2f6038@gmail.com> From: Mauro Aranda In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937 Cc: "59937@debbugs.gnu.org" <59937@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) Drew Adams writes: >> As I said in >> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=59937*26 >> I was looking for a way to: >> 1. Being able to create the restricted-sexp widget, even if the default >> value for it isn't valid. >> 2. Being able to do it without prompting the user. >> >> That's what the attached patch does.  AFAIU, we both agreed that that >> approach was a good enough fix for this bug, so that the behavior of >> certain defcustoms is less confusing.  We didn't really agree back then >> about the warning, and I'm guessing that we still disagree on that, so I >> didn't change anything about the warning. > > Thanks, Mauro.  I don't have the time now to > check the result, but I have no problem at all > with whatever fix you implemented.  If later > (probably much later) I find something I think > could be improved more in this regard, I'll > file a new enhancement/bug request. > > Thx! Ok, thank you.  I'll wait for a few days in case someone wants to chime in, and then I'll install the fix if there are no objections. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 22 08:56:09 2023 Received: (at 59937-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jul 2023 12:56:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35616 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qNC9Z-0005kV-0V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:56:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46110) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qNC9X-0005k8-6i for 59937-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:56:07 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qNC9P-00046y-Uw; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:55:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=OR9wcjYXwGoAQ4NNv0hfoU7ru1fYYRgxksj3YYc7CNc=; b=T0n0Q0p0P6d9id/KhbET ya5aWR+tjnheDgV6rKfc8xgAtqssO1Bde+sGqtK5DFyFAsLegzdWWxxzGxBbGJWstpc/rfGbvmBWU ceVD3qXNUR0haoEjBxp04YSY+QzTWuN0bmsYiCV9EgiEm3P83Q33X1jBFG9t9ieqzs6gSuj5r73sd +7f0hXED+QmmNaWtQZ9Rz7ZFogRQUpaNyi2+hvHMNiqQglg6qpYDj2qAIbKrpYmfDUmYlIyZ8BaS0 XknNNi8pJN0FqnGFdxOw1ftg4gMk70LrmLp6gFeOoj0dNUBoFprsfkI9Yui2VVcYD2NHfbRcUE1As Q8tb3lIKUoaGrg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qNC9O-00038g-Mx; Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:55:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2023 15:56:37 +0300 Message-Id: <83lef885q2.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Mauro Aranda In-Reply-To: <48440e7d-1c21-fd75-6ebb-c3dbff2f6038@gmail.com> (message from Mauro Aranda on Sun, 16 Jul 2023 20:00:40 -0300) Subject: Re: bug#59937: 28.2; Bad defcustom behavior References: <533dba58-e543-f356-664f-5dfa0b85467c@gmail.com> <5a25029e-f20b-4c17-2bba-0b4bf7510a69@gmail.com> <48440e7d-1c21-fd75-6ebb-c3dbff2f6038@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59937-done Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 59937-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: Drew Adams > Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 20:00:40 -0300 > From: Mauro Aranda > > I'm sorry it took me so long to actually take a look at this.  I had to > reread the conversation to put myself back into topic. > > As I said in https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=59937#26 > I was looking for a way to: > 1. Being able to create the restricted-sexp widget, even if the default > value for it isn't valid. > 2. Being able to do it without prompting the user. > > That's what the attached patch does.  AFAIU, we both agreed that that > approach was a good enough fix for this bug, so that the behavior of > certain defcustoms is less confusing.  We didn't really agree back then > about the warning, and I'm guessing that we still disagree on that, so I > didn't change anything about the warning. Thanks, installed on the master branch, and closing the bug. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:31:53 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator