From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Nov 06 15:25:02 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Nov 2022 20:25:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60729 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ormCU-0000dm-5e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2022 15:25:02 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:35344) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ormCQ-0000dB-2l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2022 15:25:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ormCP-0000Dd-KL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2022 15:24:57 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ormCN-0000nI-5q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2022 15:24:57 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAEA8240104 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:24:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1667766291; bh=vMPUbg9wBwRKd+zyD5JwURNzpSwzsDHKtIbuHkWqfoA=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:From; b=L40nh0Fx9XRp7V8XJEDlZdNtNNHY8MJeVAYudVajOwppZjAd5S9exOBWqI/GOH/Dj W3wojI1yKM8Ek1E8YOPOcMcNAPi64ucknKRKIvrYAcmVkObua7kTYDZ9+q1OHBPvAe sxGITGQf4S+ltPGcZN9DiqjHxuatEK0jCXnd4oyx6FEYHuXrbVYrjyobTeFuwzTFKa nNFlZ//l7sxlXSx/jxnGDhbOVWnyDna04jf2rke9RiXOGL7J9RWPOqhsWYHPci0YQu 03aX7l6npTEh0LqDbkLt9HI2WshfFl2X6zf6Bc8w2HzoyrtOJ8P2ZJa65KYlmtqLpV LqI0VIMbK/HqQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4N55Sf5BQ0z9rxj for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:24:47 +0100 (CET) From: Thierry Volpiatto To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:16:48 +0000 Autocrypt: addr=thievol@posteo.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGNBF8ylcIBDADG+hy+zR6L4/vbdDDZuSaMmSrU3A5QZJpeBCvxTr7MpzzruZbhLPW1K3R6N2MA edi8Y+C8o27FVRIjpdbaKMGu9je7JV/TbUQYo3SOwCK1vM4LUn4V6ZLzSYkuiEt4eyMoiDdyvN0p kcK6P9x9DCetcEVszXzQg+yzCVrQ2hXWDXWT4M18EC3wtO7RHPouMqGiwBFhBAYErCqFWFxQHkfb tG/4yGyJ58rglb65O3qijjMWvYwcWZun9/7qm8Z4/4mHopmo2zgU+OrptnLSZfkZGz3Y7Uf452xQ GVq0Fv75NPvQru7y+DYVhuVXXyAmGxt+vf4rIiixMBbhKEPjcxEPAa2LTzex2IsTZR+QVG9uDnqC WcgaOEQ58fzXNvNhtwwF/Rgio2XWAJVdmFWS59/k9W58CIUSNKBMZh2XeGdEmtHvDtCxW3z6FJha 36RzOM3fMNNiAGdFZJA84gcdloJR+sHCDTTPT3784fjr+V8An7sI581NGFzkRQqPvEQCZbUAEQEA AbQSdGhpZXZvbEBwb3N0ZW8ubmV0iQHOBBMBCgA4AhsDBQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheA FiEEI9twfRN7r3nig/xwDsVtFB0W75MFAmL3HCoACgkQDsVtFB0W75OVEAv/f6XxmtIFz08fUb8h Bp/zJP6IC4/rhhh+0GMRIRzLN8DK0jV8JCzYdFHiRJOy2lNIOpmrrCmjRRxferc2G42+ePFIsslx hU46VSz1Z83NwIG3mpdYNV5WUTUdgzxExHTNTFCd7NKv0nlHKQaAtdXm5bYnSHsnL7cx8z7lukA/ EsJocE+GD7QXnsrdlicvdobI0TEN4l73221a72oCvHfYLCVsB6YsNJ5ZGkA1zSjzln5uLAgZ/2r/ aqlao/AlSZkAk6+hvK0RyAZ/YR4YRZxO8Fsd0gWgFkanRfKfufJ1V0OHZg7yszi3q/hRzS+rZtJ0 OuzDlh/dyQkxVkZb9vis/+HnGDJrBE5MsmJLcy2Sy3uUnio0fq8q9CrZbudvd1DajlZxPzTm0csP eUk45QEgbhEU7MfyAX/mkKxjHajz2cMcHKIap1BqEgJl4BKFeLMcBZ4O1p9ivwtf1Ht2JTp5lOi0 ItPfhQ4DP8LZ1ZIkN5Kg9v0cyw9meRzAuuR0V2GtuQGNBF8ylcIBDADnIDHEkmk4lUwTlOhwb2yj UfmGPnpH3MCCHkjM9H/P1gTHxFWtwFVPcNMCwXWvKSBTF2dZXKERD0yzG06zT53ZMN7EIIeuY6m4 R8IcMvpohciisWxbFoB4ZY117tVSeqjo946itgbpdeESKl9a8dpn7ytZMyYxPdojlQAqxeAJ8444 raESh1oTKXb64hlk4l2pSRlrLgjpJBo8asAfZndaxIUKhw68tV8sqeZh9P6cGtHbUELKVJqefNV7 V7jF5wf3xvRG6Ces3kSKXalLfs+vrVaoOjQeWrc0AtwFWHmt9JLfKrqF+Q2Q7jUidboWmazQM56E SJFPpPHmWq8k6DHspsFHOforLouTHJL1556IPne7IV2BGfWc0+xLxalZ8F5F+vnPF/OkrC1CD5iC KTjXKa2iZbcYdYQAiL6P8Ac8CgN6EkhpbxRtzrEgChuNGevdi/G/GHG4Zqrh6YFwIa/NHq2aVaFq 5C1yNTMJd1FRjRzs5JPPlJKpYDnNx+MSp7UAEQEAAYkBtgQYAQoAIAIbDBYhBCPbcH0Te6954oP8 cA7FbRQdFu+TBQJi9x1ZAAoJEA7FbRQdFu+To6QMAIcvUSiFwCIggxkmYy3ZY0QAMLmIPga8DNPM XbfSOBDb2KLGBd+FAA8p2GExpul4r6kOYnGogtojByHmVgrd30/3ZURTM8Vj51wwD05viMZccQHl Wd9J/qZIvhBJlJWYnwVxh+2Kg4/hkx7SGc7JJS5GS37+PFQOJHPGMxc+fe4Ty2FdjIOVf3P1Hov9 K6yBI7Af66qqcL3aKJ4jJidRYN8sMaKOqEu4rcSpTxp8/3Ddbs9HezUgXeUzOLJMcEYFlvCyC8ZS l/QDZmpobKbxZ1JAqZM8lnmcZYSV7OsWnxJIYDV1gH5LTLj7bGswXaB4B+qkckihWkRZixu8q1IK 0c/xwUzyF092uFRM/sQKrSmnwA1+hQiiIuEl4XVz5li0/TmMta3ijUM7GNbl2IjioTRxWWecwad1 mNHvKTcXPsKDAbHFdLvQzurnroBHQV0jSPNLTP5Suo7RnLbehfg5INpGjToCUlrd2qQqgXW7h5qZ TgUq5UmBc7YZ0JYWQgPTbQ== Message-ID: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain OpenPGP: url=https://posteo.de/keys/thievol@posteo.net.asc; preference=encrypt Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=thievol@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hello, after having hard time getting the longhand name of a shorthand symbol at point (with regexp and the local value of read-symbol-shorthands) I discover it is easy to get this information with: (symbol-name (intern-soft (thing-at-point 'symbol))) Is this the right way to get this information and if so is it possible to document it? Thanks. In GNU Emacs 28.2 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, Motif Version 2.3.8, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2022-09-12 built on IPad-S340 Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12013000 System Description: Linux Mint 20.3 Configured using: 'configure CFLAGS=-O8 --with-mailutils --with-cairo --without-dbus --without-gconf --without-gsettings --with-x-toolkit=motif' Configured features: ACL CAIRO FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSELINUX LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11 XDBE XIM XPM MOTIF ZLIB Important settings: value of $LANG: fr_FR.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: C/* Minor modes in effect: bug-reference-prog-mode: t global-undo-tree-mode: t undo-tree-mode: t psession-mode: t psession-savehist-mode: t global-git-gutter-mode: t git-gutter-mode: t display-time-mode: t winner-mode: t helm-epa-mode: t helm-descbinds-mode: t helm-adaptive-mode: t helm-mode: t helm-minibuffer-history-mode: t helm-ff-icon-mode: t shell-dirtrack-mode: t helm-popup-tip-mode: t async-bytecomp-package-mode: t dired-async-mode: t minibuffer-depth-indicate-mode: t override-global-mode: t tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t show-paren-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t column-number-mode: t line-number-mode: t indent-tabs-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t abbrev-mode: t Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow epa-mail face-remap addressbook-bookmark tv-mu4e-config mu4e-contrib eshell esh-cmd esh-ext esh-opt esh-proc esh-io esh-arg esh-module esh-groups esh-util mu4e-patch mu4e mu4e-org mu4e-main mu4e-view gnus-art mm-uu mml2015 mm-view mml-smime smime dig gnus-sum gnus-group gnus-undo gnus-start gnus-dbus gnus-cloud nnimap nnmail mail-source utf7 netrc nnoo gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range gnus-win mu4e-headers mu4e-compose mu4e-draft mu4e-actions smtpmail mu4e-search mu4e-lists mu4e-bookmarks mu4e-mark mu4e-message shr kinsoku svg flow-fill hl-line mu4e-contacts mu4e-update mu4e-folders mu4e-server mu4e-context mu4e-obsolete mu4e-vars mu4e-helpers mu4e-config ido emacsbug sendmail helm-command cc-mode cc-fonts cc-guess cc-menus cc-cmds cc-styles cc-align cc-engine cc-vars cc-defs tabify image-file image-converter char-fold tramp-cache tramp-archive tramp-gvfs dbus flymake-shellcheck flymake-proc flymake project warnings sh-script smie executable jka-compr bug-reference naquadah-theme solar cal-dst holidays hol-loaddefs tv-utils osm dom yaml-mode undo-tree diff queue psession frameset log-view pcvs-util bash-completion cl-indent pcase ffap thingatpt autocrypt-message message rmc puny rfc822 mml mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader autocrypt-gnus gnus nnheader gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs rfc2047 rfc2045 mail-utils mm-util mail-prsvr autocrypt-mu4e autocrypt ietf-drums config-w3m git-gutter mule-util appt diary-lib diary-loaddefs gud wdired dired-extension org-config ob-gnuplot org-crypt net-utils time winner autotest-mode autoconf-mode woman man ediff ediff-merg ediff-mult ediff-wind ediff-diff ediff-help ediff-init ediff-util init-helm helm-ls-git vc-git diff-mode vc vc-dispatcher helm-fd epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config helm-epa helm-imenu imenu helm-elisp-package helm-find helm-org org ob ob-tangle ob-ref ob-lob ob-table ob-exp org-macro org-footnote org-src ob-comint org-pcomplete org-list org-faces org-entities noutline outline org-version ob-emacs-lisp ob-core ob-eval org-table oc-basic bibtex ol rx org-keys oc org-compat advice org-macs org-loaddefs cal-menu calendar cal-loaddefs helm-external isearch-light helm-descbinds helm-wikipedia all-the-icons all-the-icons-faces data-material data-weathericons data-octicons data-fileicons data-faicons data-alltheicons wfnames cus-edit wid-edit helm-ipython helm-elisp helm-eval edebug backtrace find-func python tramp-sh popup helm-bookmark helm-net xml helm-info bookmark pp helm-adaptive helm-mode helm-misc helm-files image-dired image-mode exif filenotify tramp tramp-loaddefs trampver tramp-integration files-x tramp-compat shell pcomplete parse-time iso8601 time-date ls-lisp helm-buffers helm-occur helm-tags helm-locate helm-grep wgrep-helm wgrep grep compile text-property-search comint ring helm-regexp format-spec ansi-color helm-utils helm-help helm-types helm-extensions-autoloads helm-config helm-autoloads helm helm-global-bindings helm-easymenu helm-core async-bytecomp helm-source helm-multi-match helm-lib dired-async dired-aux dired dired-loaddefs async diminish cl-extra help-mode mb-depth server edmacro kmacro avoid cus-load use-package use-package-ensure use-package-delight use-package-diminish use-package-bind-key bind-key easy-mmode use-package-core finder-inf package browse-url url url-proxy url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie url-domsuf url-util mailcap url-handlers url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache json subr-x map url-vars seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv cl-loaddefs cl-lib info w3m-load iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting font-render-setting cairo motif x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 769108 63304) (symbols 48 42224 5) (strings 32 254146 3495) (string-bytes 1 7680349) (vectors 16 78013) (vector-slots 8 1043432 53462) (floats 8 2878 703) (intervals 56 9109 2020) (buffers 992 114)) <#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign> -- Thierry From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 07:43:12 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 12:43:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47464 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otpqq-0006pT-22 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:43:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51186) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otpqo-0006pG-Pw for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:43:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otpqj-0006sg-EL; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:43:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=L5KfnFlacaan2DyQkYFcj/UpNDNPj5UxBaI7PehiDwM=; b=WhZt27oodlkvwrY1V3M/ xe9WTH/eM8PfV4BkVtLnvJI7ZAu7p+NKwR1lVg64VD5Kq+uWbkew5uBUY2eqBHB+wxAJa13flYG1B ixrNNgqAMDIDjQsPnEjA+iMEVv24EamF45jF6GTeMyzrTusKVhmJVDZQkx9rExQSMbFXz3DLKRtFH pNpIPPPjdOLkp7DjpiZIm1+i/aB6dkX3IQghTYp6RblTMFUZFfmixX9pcMaHeSpfvVnkldxaR0DBi I9e8+LCqfUD9KDyAL9hGJKvJZpdUdFDnPuWGTRbvSVKXehGBKfaIXtAfFJYJYXEHgetiCAhvQj4re P5mtyyH5JRLEBQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otpqF-00067c-2L; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:42:39 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:42:41 +0200 Message-Id: <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Thierry Volpiatto , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_T=E1vora?= In-Reply-To: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> (message from Thierry Volpiatto on Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:16:48 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Thierry Volpiatto > Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:16:48 +0000 > > after having hard time getting the longhand name of a shorthand symbol > at point (with regexp and the local value of read-symbol-shorthands) I > discover it is easy to get this information with: > > (symbol-name (intern-soft (thing-at-point 'symbol))) > > Is this the right way to get this information and if so is it > possible to document it? João, any comments? Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 08:22:48 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 13:22:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47521 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otqTA-0007uV-Hh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:22:48 -0500 Received: from mail-oi1-f182.google.com ([209.85.167.182]:43735) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otqT8-0007uI-87 for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:22:46 -0500 Received: by mail-oi1-f182.google.com with SMTP id q83so7295922oib.10 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 05:22:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=my94LJSYBDyrHihTZo+IkZHwZfCoDcj8SP5YCNMpZpM=; b=bPu2YiImmhYJNjtd8R9JgeFmX0R8y9L75NtyV8Q6BGNsV/s61DfLAIpybmhMEolEFz 2U0oRPE3hpPbnAvqvUl8s9dKkh8kCVsOc+noExdkuqVkqapJLaOZTr3qK5/T4AA2ib2Y 2h2BX9ynt46xXnwiGc7kDSate/6D9Zougn92YbNnIZ7Sj/Z0nUIBz3OwS32NV+B9wlF0 ujCvx4xVqc3jHauJ5ZWteyH4/qaoMSNNLpPCyAMz6t/TsILt8iMl5oNKIMuAvpkOmSHw VupuqvFrPlXvhgJkpWwZ0mrHwRLoPjjL48o3gWtUZVslJ4WOfOD2YuiS3BhxcsGk6z9G 3OJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=my94LJSYBDyrHihTZo+IkZHwZfCoDcj8SP5YCNMpZpM=; b=t/Kf/Cvrp2t/qal7cRmbwSixmtNubfMb3pAKcRzWIArRm961XDK7xtH3HDXsEaBDlN 0tpVJxfVDXDaz5//lgFyVrCNzbOhsd742G2m3JM2k4x5ehl2PK9eDbb+qZkpy/ScKYUX 2CGRFWw0Ccmuj4OX72kvuPSVQB+bBaForKsIVrETc30F/xVruTfg3a1Zv55bJcW1Vt85 CnKw9nbCRY/CjabD0Y6S4zs5u7LPqIsm1rnqtipKwf1j6Ipd+FGBApeokCkuacNYfJTz YRht97rsm5R3Uq2B1FsN3c3b5ps2RAAjQHD+2i58yUBVqwNyZE97B/vwJZnGOfzmWXAt 8nOg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pmP7yRe2Eodf8VOQHNgNsLynBVIE/HR1jyF+ADSSub890cX954B Cl04y0bSXYMkNOKx2ZhSOMyW2GWnnUYfJmdXjhw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6xEFG3D5Q3169jz4Mh8Du4nMq+jbIbPdWCsNSYpqguk2xJgWvLxxQRH9LOmHTlmtZcSEFPxvJR3xurfFyaebw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:13c4:b0:35a:7e8d:8ad6 with SMTP id d4-20020a05680813c400b0035a7e8d8ad6mr2643697oiw.171.1668259360688; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 05:22:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:22:28 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000964c9905ed45e62a" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: Thierry Volpiatto , 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000964c9905ed45e62a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thierry is correct. Intern-soft is Emacs way to go from a string representation to the symbol itself (or nowhere, if there's no match). This is not new with shorthands. Should we document this in the Elisp manual? Maybe, but where? Shorthand section? Not sure. This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from strings to symbols. Before shorthands we got away without this step for obvious reasons. Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol processing facilities was already using this indirection and shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that. Jo=C3=A3o On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 12:43 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Thierry Volpiatto > > Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:16:48 +0000 > > > > after having hard time getting the longhand name of a shorthand symbol > > at point (with regexp and the local value of read-symbol-shorthands) I > > discover it is easy to get this information with: > > > > (symbol-name (intern-soft (thing-at-point 'symbol))) > > > > Is this the right way to get this information and if so is it > > possible to document it? > > Jo=C3=A3o, any comments? > > Thanks. > --000000000000964c9905ed45e62a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thierry is correct. Intern-soft is Emacs way to go from a= string representation to the symbol itself (or nowhere, if there's no = match). This is not new with shorthands.
=C2=A0
Should we document this in the Elisp manual?= Maybe, but where? Shorthand section? Not sure. This is a feature of Lisp i= n general and the correct way to go from strings to symbols. Before shortha= nds we got away without this step for obvious reasons. Curiously, I was ple= asantly surprised that much code of key symbol processing facilities was al= ready using this indirection and shorthands automatically worked in those f= acilities because of that.

Jo=C3=A3o

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 12:43 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thievol@posteo.net= >
> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:16:48 +0000
>
> after having hard time getting the longhand name of a shorthand symbol=
> at point (with regexp and the local value of read-symbol-shorthands) I=
> discover it is easy to get this information with:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(symbol-name (intern-soft (thing-at-point 'symb= ol)))
>
> Is this the right way to get this information and if so is it
> possible to document it?

Jo=C3=A3o, any comments?

Thanks.
--000000000000964c9905ed45e62a-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 11:20:51 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 16:20:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48836 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ottFT-0006SH-EQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 11:20:51 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:40235) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ottFR-0006S4-Dg for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 11:20:50 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 813A5240104 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:20:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1668270043; bh=SUlwHDEYwHL8Aq+la8GSWNY4gn5mf5nEvnh3aCJ/Aro=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:From; b=HeiL4koY8mLkPRLXS7DeeJxEVSHjRy20utvHohWMjh1E+5+bfr8qMgJ/m7b7yR7Ib 3CM3IYeGyPVQAqzQDFcvabS96i0yQsXWcu0alOCrrby4OKh0qFGT2Hh1p5aIJDUsuR aBp965yd/qIxYPYI2zsaiZlBjTrt3zAP8ScbYg/XrlacbGrdtkoAVBqejlr6JZAMbs 25m4zlrZZAkjxajDEbIQs0XOBqbDxLdotSp5sG81ZB96cayRBuWS4yex78CmEjBtws o+QfBkwkuj55/ewuxKpbSH+A1KZaxFFs2dDNmCUaGAlVKuAH9VtKCZZf6WI2IB+alV DaViyUDohzr/A== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4N8gmB13CYz6tn7; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:20:41 +0100 (CET) References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> From: Thierry Volpiatto To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:06:26 +0000 In-reply-to: Autocrypt: addr=thievol@posteo.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGNBF8ylcIBDADG+hy+zR6L4/vbdDDZuSaMmSrU3A5QZJpeBCvxTr7MpzzruZbhLPW1K3R6N2MA edi8Y+C8o27FVRIjpdbaKMGu9je7JV/TbUQYo3SOwCK1vM4LUn4V6ZLzSYkuiEt4eyMoiDdyvN0p kcK6P9x9DCetcEVszXzQg+yzCVrQ2hXWDXWT4M18EC3wtO7RHPouMqGiwBFhBAYErCqFWFxQHkfb tG/4yGyJ58rglb65O3qijjMWvYwcWZun9/7qm8Z4/4mHopmo2zgU+OrptnLSZfkZGz3Y7Uf452xQ GVq0Fv75NPvQru7y+DYVhuVXXyAmGxt+vf4rIiixMBbhKEPjcxEPAa2LTzex2IsTZR+QVG9uDnqC WcgaOEQ58fzXNvNhtwwF/Rgio2XWAJVdmFWS59/k9W58CIUSNKBMZh2XeGdEmtHvDtCxW3z6FJha 36RzOM3fMNNiAGdFZJA84gcdloJR+sHCDTTPT3784fjr+V8An7sI581NGFzkRQqPvEQCZbUAEQEA AbQSdGhpZXZvbEBwb3N0ZW8ubmV0iQHOBBMBCgA4AhsDBQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheA FiEEI9twfRN7r3nig/xwDsVtFB0W75MFAmL3HCoACgkQDsVtFB0W75OVEAv/f6XxmtIFz08fUb8h Bp/zJP6IC4/rhhh+0GMRIRzLN8DK0jV8JCzYdFHiRJOy2lNIOpmrrCmjRRxferc2G42+ePFIsslx hU46VSz1Z83NwIG3mpdYNV5WUTUdgzxExHTNTFCd7NKv0nlHKQaAtdXm5bYnSHsnL7cx8z7lukA/ EsJocE+GD7QXnsrdlicvdobI0TEN4l73221a72oCvHfYLCVsB6YsNJ5ZGkA1zSjzln5uLAgZ/2r/ aqlao/AlSZkAk6+hvK0RyAZ/YR4YRZxO8Fsd0gWgFkanRfKfufJ1V0OHZg7yszi3q/hRzS+rZtJ0 OuzDlh/dyQkxVkZb9vis/+HnGDJrBE5MsmJLcy2Sy3uUnio0fq8q9CrZbudvd1DajlZxPzTm0csP eUk45QEgbhEU7MfyAX/mkKxjHajz2cMcHKIap1BqEgJl4BKFeLMcBZ4O1p9ivwtf1Ht2JTp5lOi0 ItPfhQ4DP8LZ1ZIkN5Kg9v0cyw9meRzAuuR0V2GtuQGNBF8ylcIBDADnIDHEkmk4lUwTlOhwb2yj UfmGPnpH3MCCHkjM9H/P1gTHxFWtwFVPcNMCwXWvKSBTF2dZXKERD0yzG06zT53ZMN7EIIeuY6m4 R8IcMvpohciisWxbFoB4ZY117tVSeqjo946itgbpdeESKl9a8dpn7ytZMyYxPdojlQAqxeAJ8444 raESh1oTKXb64hlk4l2pSRlrLgjpJBo8asAfZndaxIUKhw68tV8sqeZh9P6cGtHbUELKVJqefNV7 V7jF5wf3xvRG6Ces3kSKXalLfs+vrVaoOjQeWrc0AtwFWHmt9JLfKrqF+Q2Q7jUidboWmazQM56E SJFPpPHmWq8k6DHspsFHOforLouTHJL1556IPne7IV2BGfWc0+xLxalZ8F5F+vnPF/OkrC1CD5iC KTjXKa2iZbcYdYQAiL6P8Ac8CgN6EkhpbxRtzrEgChuNGevdi/G/GHG4Zqrh6YFwIa/NHq2aVaFq 5C1yNTMJd1FRjRzs5JPPlJKpYDnNx+MSp7UAEQEAAYkBtgQYAQoAIAIbDBYhBCPbcH0Te6954oP8 cA7FbRQdFu+TBQJi9x1ZAAoJEA7FbRQdFu+To6QMAIcvUSiFwCIggxkmYy3ZY0QAMLmIPga8DNPM XbfSOBDb2KLGBd+FAA8p2GExpul4r6kOYnGogtojByHmVgrd30/3ZURTM8Vj51wwD05viMZccQHl Wd9J/qZIvhBJlJWYnwVxh+2Kg4/hkx7SGc7JJS5GS37+PFQOJHPGMxc+fe4Ty2FdjIOVf3P1Hov9 K6yBI7Af66qqcL3aKJ4jJidRYN8sMaKOqEu4rcSpTxp8/3Ddbs9HezUgXeUzOLJMcEYFlvCyC8ZS l/QDZmpobKbxZ1JAqZM8lnmcZYSV7OsWnxJIYDV1gH5LTLj7bGswXaB4B+qkckihWkRZixu8q1IK 0c/xwUzyF092uFRM/sQKrSmnwA1+hQiiIuEl4XVz5li0/TmMta3ijUM7GNbl2IjioTRxWWecwad1 mNHvKTcXPsKDAbHFdLvQzurnroBHQV0jSPNLTP5Suo7RnLbehfg5INpGjToCUlrd2qQqgXW7h5qZ TgUq5UmBc7YZ0JYWQgPTbQ== Message-ID: <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" OpenPGP: url=https://posteo.de/keys/thievol@posteo.net.asc; preference=encrypt X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from > strings to symbols. Great, thanks to confirm. > Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol > processing facilities was already using this indirection and > shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that. `substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this. Say you have the file foo.el with=20 `read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and containing definitions like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing str= ing like "\\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a function `f-help` containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail complaining `f-dothis` is void. =2D-=20 Thierry --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQHHBAEBCgAxFiEEI9twfRN7r3nig/xwDsVtFB0W75MFAmNvx9MTHHRoaWV2b2xA cG9zdGVvLm5ldAAKCRAOxW0UHRbvk0vwC/4qT7GtxdsQXpGWa6hyrew9eu/Id4Nn sT0FH8pw+5P87L2QIgBYjzVO5N3yW5P8aE8V8eABgAgw9OV0GfDhz9tMk33FBy+s t++Rgz6bjdlnohJiIiwl+3EoypkfwAQibiO89ERz7RBwpKOFp3PJzZF72RfZiYkP MhDUftswtHggFWIPQ1s0eKyFOEHiG2jEDSu6YbUSnqV+8sOP740zLbXSiotw+wH1 fg8H/+7HOLI2obhRSWoMP8vKBSIVx35s9+eS1MUL/gMGAN3qfoF3iRhUXRPaRfwc PhG1U1QN/OOLoD16s4rYv61o2s+A7p1uTKaRBwCrYgLvK8jQIDuLKS0ol4rv/S3c KU6OqWC46JJU/hCY5zJHvF+WE8TcSkPMf3x+zyxTfgBSgsD54ZEzCWLahrgR+gzm /dwcT3LOllukbURNmreuizskU6eEw/SgmY1wQKQWFy5VltnOOaHbCa1hAE2Ozhpj yNwTwXS58JhPjgLZMsA+LE+tKBOlHR3HBzs= =oqYM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 11:47:11 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 16:47:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48871 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ottew-00076e-KL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 11:47:11 -0500 Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com ([209.85.210.51]:41973) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ottev-00076R-Cu for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 11:47:09 -0500 Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id p27-20020a056830319b00b0066d7a348e20so452722ots.8 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:47:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=W9YPrQgDm3fybi+cIYOFAB+lWd3/TYQriPdkv7zXWs0=; b=OGjU8++FWAU89p1/1RBCtB0af/aXQ24MQTp7LjEygCcKWJ5u8c0p8qnC3J8cXKOtmg /Ui8aGHQ+TBVMUkJVDt9wG2IczpxcGjEF8uEwS56uzlfM3JBanrzPjvAgcdaPy82f/qW vDfy5dfsUiSm/Xc8SL7zzkA/Q2Wns7WXWzvqV+2qq5G+TO1mVbWseEzJgBn/RDvQlxD0 Krwz6rLn8hX5wwEZ+yfOhJ5SJTmezt69wsMF3fQKJkr3ai+NwYxGIJTduy+IrcbWEPL/ Lpx1oodfVZHe+xdnFYwuHkzQQhOkEwLLUSyQbHjcYhxkWJb7jCaS4lfuoVcoi6F1Wi4Y Z+Cg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=W9YPrQgDm3fybi+cIYOFAB+lWd3/TYQriPdkv7zXWs0=; b=Ac/NfuJE9YhMrYilP18AIvse95aFCRNwc9P6fs4vXuDb7GQel8jEkwUS1eW7q/tfLE DSVEdnmfhAVQP2wiQlJ9T2kEhTZ5j+Zky7qHjDGX+yjHGy11hWIHJQq+qldO7o94FBKw jq1/xeZ6MoqT6GU0t0HHA4gi2hLvQbnFC45mCKNLhESAJXrJmrjM2g806XMOxb773fo5 bvoEbdCPntZE4k/ee2+aRskzi3C2nhrbqiiajXr7B0rHRLpPXBNs8Fvkw1mIKV0kPFw/ QaKzYrzy2lXbsRYCbJgdVM0D7mDTkUuja2Thc1x37KS/jogV1NuthJad4UIWA9HWGYc3 ef8A== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pmWAMMDl5Z//2WFM9BUemZAwheowPs8st2HF8cRcQ6j2TZe7lO4 5RCYDTu7SNbop5OUDl7BXS46MerrpFrPk7AeCXI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf592JcXL0L6ptohi36Sd3V2XpmeIPgQl66OLA6i4iJ1F1Cx6gYjh8T2q1QzRNLzq6W8RAPP81GXLt9nFvUrVws= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:124d:b0:66c:64d6:1bb4 with SMTP id s13-20020a056830124d00b0066c64d61bb4mr3551184otp.201.1668271623654; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:47:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> In-Reply-To: <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols To: Thierry Volpiatto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000084517705ed48c180" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --00000000000084517705ed48c180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren't read by the Lisp reader, but by something else... This is what is at stake, right? Maybe if good reasonable semantics can be found, but not sure. On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 16:20 Thierry Volpiatto wrote: > > Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > > > This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from > > strings to symbols. > > Great, thanks to confirm. > > > Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol > > processing facilities was already using this indirection and > > shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that. > > `substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this. > > Say you have the file foo.el with > `read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and containing definiti= ons > like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing > string like > "\\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a function `f-help` > containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail > complaining `f-dothis` is void. > > -- > Thierry > --00000000000084517705ed48c180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings= , which aren't read by the Lisp reader, but by something else... This i= s what is at stake, right?

May= be if good reasonable semantics can be found, but not sure.

=
On Sat, No= v 12, 2022, 16:20 Thierry Volpiatto <thievol@posteo.net> wrote:

Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:=

> This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from > strings to symbols.

Great, thanks to confirm.

> Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol
> processing facilities was already using this indirection and
> shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that.
`substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this.

Say you have the file foo.el with
`read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and c= ontaining definitions
like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing str= ing like
"\<f-map>\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a functio= n `f-help`
containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail
complaining `f-dothis` is void.

--
Thierry
--00000000000084517705ed48c180-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 11:48:13 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 16:48:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48875 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ottfx-0007Ac-4Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 11:48:13 -0500 Received: from mail-oo1-f44.google.com ([209.85.161.44]:38403) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ottfv-0007AF-Sv for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 11:48:12 -0500 Received: by mail-oo1-f44.google.com with SMTP id g15-20020a4a894f000000b0047f8e899623so1043907ooi.5 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:48:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8W27JJXOuv62YlrZI9jVUEFEzQwrm11l9kky9EeSqMQ=; b=X6c+ChSZ36tB98Hp1LHwk1bWDkFa0RbDHkFVyFBx1VgzofDoc1D4ZF9IzlGq6fugrW v6jfZ1BHKK9e3ujUqzdz+ZEheDOeRIU0XEe/fcut2ElO4/alGcRgwYotrQIMYhBXfOO0 92v+15WzJSHs5QDW6XWpj7oncdspF+PoQWHAtosiqQcwRXmG15PFkAIDJsqmSC6+sJAv +yjOrksLKqRRyOZLp815goVDTn0xFYhkocRyHMJk5thS7nmL9LzN686rWZpgwyoYxFSR MR9uYwGiI+WIp2k+BvUF43VJ9RXSiXQBolI61iKcp5tCqc7CpyNar9HGkLn7CCM9Cw12 iArg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=8W27JJXOuv62YlrZI9jVUEFEzQwrm11l9kky9EeSqMQ=; b=rlzA9TFR8uwFu0az5Or0ge+eAJzOvINqj83hh6+FH72pOiTF0Vv/pD+J6cifoRneVP fH4R6RcJV99vcbuLzmGRjAY1DUQb6YdTVH7VJrfQ/6srRTfq0WCvY4AYvBElpBDsowGA 14GBRo+t5JC9WJk8BjH9/AexCmn7h2SWX1wVyvQVX86kTsXMoUSbzFCXKUR19VbCXyA6 ln9Ddn+zAe1HeUnuHv3cQFqEM/r/pK3/9btzBhA5x/88iMJpirl3U0Fzc6j5Ci78X2fV Ou00jDYYXYJzcl2zAKtxDjzOS4aTbaZQNqjciYgmXtE0X/Pt2sLrkUFBThzmpoBXF4qy NWGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pkU6V4DgyDFLAuxDOczHU7O4kv2S66mC8th3Rqi3QMyf/VIdSLz GmxIr+dF7nftEs66vmHM8qWFFfxmGWyZMgAHibo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf7+WI4hh2Mz0cp+Z9DRkNNml2BFBky5pzNpSjmfXE6LFTmHC0ckiOtA3kmGqblCUSspS6a7A+Ff4KFOcxQfWu0= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:de96:0:b0:49f:c9c:5f3d with SMTP id v22-20020a4ade96000000b0049f0c9c5f3dmr2928536oou.41.1668271686367; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:48:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:47:54 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols To: Thierry Volpiatto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000413e6f05ed48c596" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000413e6f05ed48c596 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We can/should of course document the decision that they aren't supported in rubbed in the manual though (if we make that decision)... Jo=C3=A3o On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 16:46 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wr= ote: > Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren't > read by the Lisp reader, but by something else... This is what is at stak= e, > right? > > Maybe if good reasonable semantics can be found, but not sure. > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 16:20 Thierry Volpiatto wrote: > >> >> Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: >> >> > This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from >> > strings to symbols. >> >> Great, thanks to confirm. >> >> > Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol >> > processing facilities was already using this indirection and >> > shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that. >> >> `substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this. >> >> Say you have the file foo.el with >> `read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and containing definit= ions >> like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing >> string like >> "\\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a function `f-help` >> containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail >> complaining `f-dothis` is void. >> >> -- >> Thierry >> > --000000000000413e6f05ed48c596 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We can/should of course document the decision that they a= ren't supported in rubbed in the manual though (if we make that decisio= n)...

Jo=C3=A3o
On Sat, N= ov 12, 2022, 16:46 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@gmail.com> wrote:
Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in= docstrings, which aren't read by the Lisp reader, but by something els= e... This is what is at stake, right?

Maybe if good reasonable semantics can be found, but not sure.

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 16:20 Thierry Volpiatto <thievol@pos= teo.net> wrote:

Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@gmail.com&= gt; writes:

> This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from > strings to symbols.

Great, thanks to confirm.

> Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol
> processing facilities was already using this indirection and
> shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that.
`substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this.

Say you have the file foo.el with
`read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and c= ontaining definitions
like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing str= ing like
"\<f-map>\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a functio= n `f-help`
containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail
complaining `f-dothis` is void.

--
Thierry
--000000000000413e6f05ed48c596-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 12:01:07 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 17:01:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48883 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ottsR-0007UH-N8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:01:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41612) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ottsP-0007Tf-LB for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:01:06 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ottsK-0005H9-As; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:01:00 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=UY8qPwkMdkSb34MyxmEY3wqxX/6/mkoGeeghvKdE/Q0=; b=TtjkVLTJT8wvBP1oiTPo U9WRVdUhv79yUb9JxY4ONikCPZ+W2wOFf0XD5lViKquWfcQheTmZ0ifoQDZtfeIdPRfAiwfPpVdCZ K5qoWHj0/bRe6ARqMljf37Srq1voWX8uFg1xWO3SwKEgAlIzcroEy063cstccpXfN2I8Fzo+dlg0E PrWOut82HW5KRWiO5jOmWd+HEwAQ1RuB5WNpRyX2sn52aJjDMVAx0/wUPGvDFxAOks5lXCSUq+rjn P8vjondqRueVj58zTmrdpixAqI8eJmbYvmNvVqnu9G48V0Su61Na94VMkZTUi9fkjO02PjnCmnEBv yJdUmNfe4OdZeA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ottsJ-0000YP-FF; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:00:59 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 19:01:05 +0200 Message-Id: <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 59082@debbugs.gnu.org > > Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren't read by the Lisp reader, but by > something else... This is what is at stake, right? References to functions and variables in doc strings are a matter of routine. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 12:19:17 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 17:19:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48904 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otuA1-0007u8-8N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:19:17 -0500 Received: from mail-oi1-f179.google.com ([209.85.167.179]:33491) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otu9z-0007tw-9g for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:19:15 -0500 Received: by mail-oi1-f179.google.com with SMTP id c129so7736667oia.0 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=27LoRvMHskgNkJTuEfBn/JJKtFylOuf5yggZbaSffuc=; b=UTtkPEpCd4MYsmYTB3qHLeHPZ/uRdNRd9G8ap6eqlPBFSaczZRQ5z2bAd1PB7ROOt0 Jw4pL1BdVsd6Us5O4NvoZqk5WWxYkRGGUKeRRb2408IVN8mRYctTR/C+vXMr0VoGRmRc WXRvT7sgJpcnyXdhtrR6VziaTBKV6A3+Xd9pWLliOJdl2lrsvxKxhMDm9ngQPM1upTWU ivCLKUF6wjW3ztfi+6LZf5LCL0aFT4sBqNib1qv+VZqEnVCGeurSCajvCjYBk+y9Okqa 0e+gnj5+7/VkoNsoM2XbAnagXk5Rk5sScAC80wdapYwrOMSEQkQM0/qRtAHnYtWOhMaI 5Gig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=27LoRvMHskgNkJTuEfBn/JJKtFylOuf5yggZbaSffuc=; b=Z5C+LWFUjmMGODAfAZ1YPq0IIV0jSw1ttLE/dxLIbaJrImelihlJFxmXH3ncj0xJhN +dHA24zDE0DgeA0VbLNsGWjUhqR1MloQuLtw4u29nH5kI6/FReB3J0Zt49QD5yvmbhc/ kfLrhBJFyxs8CfaDjdt84Q4OpDxE3YbewA/QHCkYPdNigdCyva/lYBBPBxAC5CO+KhMp GkuDkD65Ks2hXSB7nCubEoqB03i8XJeDTbOZn5ujdVBBcfP9DcJV+ILjkJp3NZxj/CwH Sxe3RlURNFmXsALQXmhf8v7+xvRnL5tS97gGGd5Pvo4IsEKWzutoCnNqeLNUjAPf4fEP RnjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pl9mnVM/ILHLSUYQeRmF2El7K0so0gYFozSO5hZB25Umn3Cd6pl KR1hBIrL9nc7xqj3XRALt7b/0qyDqutMsaxdYi8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6ira8tyUxjJR/0/upXAhnNLwwXZ4pnec1SuuWk4hkstL41PlXj7pkr5kN5pelHw5nQYX+UDaIxh6ZADT1oAKI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:13c4:b0:35a:7e8d:8ad6 with SMTP id d4-20020a05680813c400b0035a7e8d8ad6mr3011457oiw.171.1668273549578; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:18:57 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f953105ed493486" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000004f953105ed493486 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Of course. And for blue the programmer should just use the names of the symbols there, as always. Shorthands are not the names of symbols, as i keep reminding. If the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can refer to symbols there using shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only. On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 17:01 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora > > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000 > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 59082@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren't > read by the Lisp reader, but by > > something else... This is what is at stake, right? > > References to functions and variables in doc strings are a matter of > routine. > --0000000000004f953105ed493486 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Of course. And for blue the programmer should just use th= e names of the symbols there, as always. Shorthands are not the names of sy= mbols, as i keep reminding.

If= the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can refer to= symbols there using shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only.

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 17:01 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, 59082@d= ebbugs.gnu.org
>
> Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren&= #39;t read by the Lisp reader, but by
> something else... This is what is at stake, right?

References to functions and variables in doc strings are a matter of
routine.
--0000000000004f953105ed493486-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 12:49:42 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 17:49:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48939 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otudS-0002T4-Bg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:49:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40170) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otudR-0002So-7Q for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:49:41 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otudL-0004Uo-Rn; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:49:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=59oMA+M4WaKogSlUi4u71q2oP4spO9Sdh3t5pgcG1jI=; b=b6D9YLzCuA9bvgyrKXM7 I8hwl3+frNl32eZitgrwc52SGP9eSHeLgO0jLIXcK8JsRtZ3HoFLsIcikghSx8sfv50pya595OtD4 OYRFeblUW9k3pxCQyA1seGoY0XlynwH/zdNK/FHXgwz02EGWZRVXChkoTiSeV0b26WJwAlP2Ct4kn yv/MHTWAb8UUG7dYXzS2OcKOaRZ8Y/CmWgTq/ynXRdGiyMO4wyjG7Fw55c8/6MK18185sun7EQA8x 8bIqSSO836xE+qsx9rz9beCeUIXEHy3VKny2sWBI9nVQet9OF4lfRLVPLXZapK4rX/YIVMfHzSmD5 4H9PyKGWQmS90Q==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otudL-0003nI-1v; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:49:35 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 19:49:41 +0200 Message-Id: <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:18:57 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:18:57 +0000 > Cc: thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org > > Of course. And for blue the programmer should just use the names of the symbols there, as always. > Shorthands are not the names of symbols, as i keep reminding. > > If the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can refer to symbols there using > shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only. I don't understand this response. Are you saying that the problem doesn't exist, or are you saying that you just don't care? Or are you saying something else? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 13:14:32 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2022 18:14:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48995 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otv1U-00036W-48 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:14:32 -0500 Received: from mail-oi1-f179.google.com ([209.85.167.179]:41920) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1otv1S-00036J-6I for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:14:30 -0500 Received: by mail-oi1-f179.google.com with SMTP id l127so7768254oia.8 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 10:14:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Bi90fDC11VcXtFvLMRJUjLb+/WIQ4gEGyUwQoHHBF6M=; b=d2r6PkhzjkGfNFvW3KmnebyjY6vc5SYr0AkcHpRenYMcaBit9CU9BFOcHUY5Uzgs/f TCEA9WmCvmtnhQDI/AByqFr/der0nj1+uHpl/HmrTQcvfqYEiBs6+xrmY9b7epdhGGqI UmT8z7A5obui3//WFqprq7UXOzN1I/F0BKgWvYHPltJO25mkJlA5RC6Qf1jP7mavkuLP 9j+3+fqHAD/cHPUej4CWO4lkqEwFWM/yAlKp6TWB0OQ1tJ6ko8gPPcOFYHpZ+hTxRn3Y tYNL4X5nPj6m1kgnrgG2XjshSPrBf2EqVV3tw2XU01JTJkFR5EzQ35fVf8FiilOmbmqv oSDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Bi90fDC11VcXtFvLMRJUjLb+/WIQ4gEGyUwQoHHBF6M=; b=qmRPVRN5eBd9710T1STYVeBTFmGf3atjvi2lssWaDZ57ZwTKVTGRgJD2973FpY0qN+ PwKoPIFnfq/HUqBE19LM1x6kLbStfTowxZiEN7qCijrBv8Gtfj7byZKmjJDfYmXnF59W /9tDEHlUHWNT3G3j2eYYbwr2XXRxoCWWergD45Q77OVEmUXl0F9yxVOMzdxz2+MQUwWI NKPyTTz+CvlKWUjD+VnEtUXdIyNYxclAm+o9eZZ6z/XQ2UYrRCmQyh8MpRw9mk68tPAY CUaa0KPkuan91JPNZvR//etXtQLqJ9h7mY5Gaqwxf3Sny98mZnGIQNyvy8UnN5kiZuMb mUiA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pmaf76TbSs+XGITx4BAHl8rgdQa3kBbnKKHELW0erQQSWcTc970 2LedjKxcHUhDEZwTrmzxACmrzDfXR3t+URZBqIU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf5rqrnO4iSuc9xe2wT+mUBwS1GWD6HmC0yMnGzF9Hpz92ZXYIlmmW0m5ID/b3l3CfaEsrRZdmoiJQRvCtWAcoU= X-Received: by 2002:aca:3b06:0:b0:359:ca6a:7fc0 with SMTP id i6-20020aca3b06000000b00359ca6a7fc0mr3168104oia.215.1668276864220; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 10:14:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 18:14:11 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e101e905ed49f9c1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000e101e905ed49f9c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 17:49 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora > > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:18:57 +0000 > > Cc: thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > Of course. And for blue the programmer > Sorry, it probably didn't help that this "for blue" slipped in when typing on my phone. > If the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can > refer to symbols there using > > shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only. > > I don't understand this response. Are you saying that the problem > doesn't exist, or are you saying that you just don't care? Or are you > saying something else? > I understand. I'm saying docstrings are outside the functional scope of shorthands, so you should just use longhand there for now. Same as you must use in M-x and other "global" contexts. Because shorthands are not new names for symbols. But I'm also saying that, perhaps, for the particular case of docstrings, which are inherently file-local constructs, the "docstring reader", whenever it lives, could be enhanced to allow shorthands, too. So the intermediate representation of the docstring mini-language could understand that the text x-foo actually references the symbol xeno-foo. And then C-h f would display the true symbol name as it usually does. But this would basically be a new feature, not strictly necessary to enable the things that shorthands are originally designed for. But convenient, for sure. Jo=C3=A3o > --000000000000e101e905ed49f9c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 17:49 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> w= rote:
> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1v= ora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:18:57 +0000
> Cc: thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu= .org
>
> Of course. And for blue the programmer=C2=A0

Sorry, it probably didn= 9;t help that this "for blue" slipped in when typing on my phone.=

> If the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can r= efer to symbols there using
> shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only.

I don't understand this response.=C2=A0 Are you saying that the problem=
doesn't exist, or are you saying that you just don't care?=C2=A0 Or= are you
saying something else?

I understand. I'm saying docstrings are outside t= he functional scope of shorthands, so you should just use longhand there fo= r now. Same as you must use in M-x and other "global" contexts. B= ecause shorthands are not new names for symbols.
But I'm also saying that, perhaps, for the par= ticular case of docstrings, which are inherently file-local constructs, the= "docstring reader", whenever it lives, could be enhanced to allo= w shorthands, too. So the intermediate representation of the=C2=A0 docstrin= g mini-language could understand that the text x-foo actually references th= e symbol xeno-foo. And then C-h f would display the true symbol name as it = usually does.

But this w= ould basically be a new feature, not strictly necessary to enable the thing= s that shorthands are originally designed for. But convenient, for sure.

Jo=C3=A3o
--000000000000e101e905ed49f9c1-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Nov 13 22:13:13 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2022 03:13:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48748 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouPuK-0002s4-Uw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:13:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58318) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouPuG-0002rm-9c for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:13:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouPuA-0007Ht-84; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:13:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=U9BjSxtEN3Bdqh4dEQn8V3wTu9TPcWW0XgJTwfaejCU=; b=JLRDIkuBwwHf Nnob4OPRHJ2UXmM9VvRMfILL8xswmttUVVbuSUaJsrGxYIOkI//Ooo+yumw4IfVoSIRibp4S9CC5H 9NohqdRlUVQYGkkb8zQJlShIJz8/F7NOh6R7VCOmJxc2/bPr53hGTTesQMiZyND83QCPIvR6+iPDO lWB7nn+H1Go7nvIJifpC97jWzbfzQzRdBtevLggMFZ2lbZnTCQe65O54SM+dp00sSUvFY7wENJ4hA pHYNaSXzRra1kEe6+8FWXpxDYOq7S4ZsX1k+De8pRPGVQxyiGRgmLoALJ3U0O2gOEhqfcIlNGt/iJ TX932W/ycgaKxowM9Jn3SA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouPu8-00027D-8s; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:13:00 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= on Sat, 12 Nov 2022 18:14:11 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:13:00 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, eliz@gnu.org, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I understand. I'm saying docstrings are outside the functional scope of > shorthands, so you should just use longhand there for now. Same as you must > use in M-x and other "global" contexts. Because shorthands are not new > names for symbols. Is this really a problem? Let's consider the case of s.el. `s.el' says s-foo, and we use a shorthand to make that read as `string-foo'. As far as I can see, anything which uses the symbol's name will use `string-foo'. That is the desired behavior. But if a doc string in s.el actually says "Calls the function `s-foo'", nothing will translate that to `string-foo', So we will get incorrect and confusing output. Does any doc string in s.el actually use the name of a function or variable in s.el? I got an explanation of how to obtain the source code but I have not had time to do it yet. Maybe we need a construct to use in doc strings that requests shorthands processing on a part of the doc string. This would have to happen at read time, when the doc string is read, so that the proper shorthands are in effect there. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 14 01:38:11 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2022 06:38:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48818 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouT6h-00089B-3C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 01:38:11 -0500 Received: from mail-oi1-f178.google.com ([209.85.167.178]:45895) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouT6c-00088e-DM for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 01:38:10 -0500 Received: by mail-oi1-f178.google.com with SMTP id t62so10484919oib.12 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:38:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=A8AvTzmZFlo/tX+weuHxtfKBDJqxgtjgjoGXZf29hwk=; b=VAgmBvRyfSoPu3mA6JyZrUgPjAXi4epwlLmeoMS4NFL2C6pLIBcM7PHUWAE9DQXDFE TPNpNf7TXwnwM7U31r5MvElhlw3nCXBagoS7hk2kobIcTkYiyPdVSs2Y3ztCwV6paYUN /dM0a6nkfP7zom8yvCbLn2seDR1WdgagZSzK6aBO1nOF0GtzDHq1z924afib+vqH17cH clbFY0X6HbHwGMZ5s6neIyXiymy7IAu7svVVK2G4wxDU2+WI/DxppkgigpDohDFzT996 vDXjSUwBwH11rWZ/JTuTmtIx7+kB0ue277Qj2sNy7mGmEDG/PYb6FJNMHLm3LhI8fCid +1Ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=A8AvTzmZFlo/tX+weuHxtfKBDJqxgtjgjoGXZf29hwk=; b=QqH9MXUrI0Ydgd1kNeGLqLz2T3DdIgc9t74DofmFET8DolKnJEo6FBLIeY1PayXetv 9Uq9Xy2pp15jLUOXPfEVfPY+hlDK3F9wzGdIpvejSNSOPMqGLdroNOCukGhNSreTiAvr rcx/NCB6YdXAKnduHVzzILMP+hkROZIAfz2vstEY0WlRjHOHOji2QRnVB964eKSZ9G0M juRgLFioGlmrDcoNh3lLkM17gNn46/dphy+Pd0ITjpC0U28Fjq35ujZrBG+uaPiZtUdm ITzH7LYp6MFuGmBrK1peV7w0GX9uxHPa1uu4+FO2cshh5eceGlGEDxSJzUoAqcs6N+3+ Lovg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pl0eX6aY9jSmA2dMcN/UfVcXTj6Ii1Zo8b4IP/0oMLtPfskXxtB OEPez9hc2z1ynXUruOAWn7CzYl546Cjaei7DRWE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf4NXDEdx1h9xg9pj4U4DsIB2HKzItE49Jqbx8ScV1MHJuGZ/XsI6MBjOz6MbgNVNTN3F3wscUrYfD216aanvtY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:13c4:b0:35a:7e8d:8ad6 with SMTP id d4-20020a05680813c400b0035a7e8d8ad6mr5085126oiw.171.1668407880803; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:38:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 06:39:04 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001368f105ed687bb5" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, eliz@gnu.org, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000001368f105ed687bb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 3:13 AM Richard Stallman wrote: > Maybe we need a construct to use in doc strings > that requests shorthands processing on a part of the doc string. > This would have to happen at read time, when the doc string is read, > so that the proper shorthands are in effect there. Correct, but this "read time" is "docstring read time", which I don't think is technically the same as "Lisp read time". And I also agree that maybe we don't "need" this urgently, for s.el or at all. But it would be a nice-to-have, especially if it's easy to implement. Jo=C3=A3o --0000000000001368f105ed687bb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 3:13 AM Richard Stallman <= rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> Maybe= we need a construct to use in doc strings
> that requests shorthands= processing on a part of the doc string.
> This would have to happen = at read time, when the doc string is read,
> so that the p= roper shorthands are in effect there.

Correct, but= this "read time" is "docstring read time", which I don= 't think
is technically the same as "Lisp read tim= e".

And I also agree that maybe we don't = "need" this urgently, for s.el
or at all. But it would = be a nice-to-have, especially if it's easy to
implement.

Jo=C3=A3o
--0000000000001368f105ed687bb5-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 14 08:05:38 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2022 13:05:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49129 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZ9d-0007sJ-S3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:05:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53298) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZ9c-0007s7-0e for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:05:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZ9W-00044N-Ko; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:05:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=W+FeKhLdBF9/B/SX2iuvtDQPHymeA0UocYjQ6ogJFJw=; b=XdqKNSjJi/BB 0UGLCy0RLMFAIdyxk5GpU6J0JAlVyLqQpPDxZ6PaaR4bKY4897NxtPE+LGSYlvYj69c23xF1vvnM8 yzkutBGl5MBUTJWpKxmBH1zqH8UAI5pmgL6DnN73lYDNXCvFzVLAYP8E3B1Gvw6FUru7AW4Jk0PnD cEca7KGarqKrQQaezlRi6bFYGSAijWdoueA/LkzxOx5aI+PL5GCsWBueK8qwJ3vrHNG7YXLT8GOpY USbhuc8Cv6/DfOrpVezxZeshBOR8pZSnm2+DJhLu0prRoD4JCDVDyQY22KlWdhEgnOfRp60rcX2tF zNk/2mPLvQAcn7aS9fSF7A==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZ9O-00047q-NM; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:05:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:05:33 +0200 Message-Id: <83leodk7oi.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:13:00 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, joaotavora@gmail.com, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:13:00 -0500 > > But if a doc string in s.el actually says "Calls the function > `s-foo'", nothing will translate that to `string-foo', So we will get > incorrect and confusing output. > > Does any doc string in s.el actually use the name of a function or > variable in s.el? It does. Here are a few examples: (defun s-split-up-to (separator s n &optional omit-nulls) "Split S up to N times into substrings bounded by matches for regexp SEPARATOR. If OMIT-NULLS is non-nil, zero-length substrings are omitted. See also `s-split'." (defun s-ends-with? (suffix s &optional ignore-case) "Does S end with SUFFIX? If IGNORE-CASE is non-nil, the comparison is done without paying attention to case differences. Alias: `s-suffix?'" (defun s-presence (s) "Return S if it's `s-present?', otherwise return nil." (defun s-count-matches-all (regexp s &optional start end) "Count occurrences of `regexp' in `s'. `start', inclusive, and `end', exclusive, delimit the part of `s' to match. `start' and `end' are both indexed starting at 1; the initial character in `s' is index 1. This function starts looking for the next match from the second character of the previous match. Hence, it counts matches that overlap a previously found match. To ignore matches that overlap a previously found match, use `s-count-matches'." I think it really is such a widespread (and good) practice to include cross-references in doc strings that it should be a no-brainer to decide that supporting this practice is important. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 14 08:11:15 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2022 13:11:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49140 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZF5-000810-2g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:11:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36334) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZF3-00080o-Cr for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:11:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZEy-00074k-6I; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:11:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=xGYJEz0OGilXpKIG9jiieiuXTQd0Aa7hupFvTgSvRIg=; b=Mx7wM9AwK4l6ZSQ7QeeM pWJPrQNQpM3QdzBbRPr2WwNZ+3hq/n7rOtL6LOnHdFpgLQvznpyT9DAlVZLJbNeTaYF9c7qPQ+5ej 8gwutvSREUrqKpWz8anGCvfjttOeIG9wN1DpKFBOYF6bHCoRpaupZSsT2OZE+kkBKIOHOmoCPv35D wi1+Y+e46DYtW3L0+Stl+UsoM1DZh1rQQDEbsbzj/DNcIHXuZQJs5Mo0qEF0ZhSEpBBBfk6s0ENLZ gBJ7n0SikaYF68XFrwwYgB7Jg5F6pxqozFVCGgA3pjRjZq92jrfFkgoQa8e9ejg4fCsmatZBlc4WS MMaMg156Nj2yaQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZEt-0008DS-UT; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:11:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:11:15 +0200 Message-Id: <83iljhk7f0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Mon, 14 Nov 2022 06:39:04 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 06:39:04 +0000 > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 3:13 AM Richard Stallman wrote: > > > Maybe we need a construct to use in doc strings > > that requests shorthands processing on a part of the doc string. > > This would have to happen at read time, when the doc string is read, > > so that the proper shorthands are in effect there. > > Correct, but this "read time" is "docstring read time", which I don't think > is technically the same as "Lisp read time". > > And I also agree that maybe we don't "need" this urgently, for s.el > or at all. But it would be a nice-to-have, especially if it's easy to > implement. The natural place to do that is where we prepare the Help buffer and generate the cross-links. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 14 08:35:19 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2022 13:35:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49146 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZcN-00008v-9N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:35:19 -0500 Received: from mail-oa1-f51.google.com ([209.85.160.51]:36782) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZcL-00008f-5Z for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:35:17 -0500 Received: by mail-oa1-f51.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-13bef14ea06so12478941fac.3 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 05:35:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=I4fIa+D0SZ7QMo4IrdP1XMzlHc0q65X7WKFsMyB/5NQ=; b=nNf8j30WuIc4Ygn2sSnz+3wXEy85MdthDCt22L7FYnyusRhh+lXXKWd5bmj/eqmwV6 G51ROXYZ/hyCe1yzLAIkBkiIel27EIG415UEZPxGJka7FqF1nRQRKKrJIJac67yWiKXC zQuCHeivJZWbi9ScLSsZekt8pb9biGKemRmNTNaUx9dHKX7XQ2jeQskZIf1KooA/I7n2 1hJpRQbW8OQ1DMfqc4Vf5/RodXdSisJ7lS7HcsW+g3Hvs1KabIPMJQ9nM/nz3g4SoPsA w637XL7zHcaLBXs7vgmVhPlc9bzbVgkQFmbaNCfb8/EpFVBInYEgr8CBKhgMlITJmsFY QPDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=I4fIa+D0SZ7QMo4IrdP1XMzlHc0q65X7WKFsMyB/5NQ=; b=arMZMzPP3/05hblgWHF1dHXQj+XJpaC+tX/4wGW0qpUtrf3Vwpdc1N2T5c7jwQUo/K +ohXXDuJMIDC6Y1a699xt46VYU0WMph7nxGSCfMItwdv9kGX7ejH6aKHcRVpERI1Na5B ieiQOFebLC3rSe3uw0saEgNDmWutvlft5Z37OO8G6XrQVuDtGDFRrw9PuMzCSa03J3s3 K4mcjp1CvyhiizJzpjVPgxGkC/qwQJuBXCK+URzCb439jE1AAzlCXGifzSnB+gyPs4oF ID2npnWJ4RySVYvmDn3F5Jdcu+Lj8MGb62hsxXmB3r5u3kJd/bewPrJOcvSpox+AXISF BDfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pn3L1UFz0Lr0VPSOuviA4iwy46hILGkHWULYHpWy2UHu1K1iEDd 5KFOzJmqqbWLwPCdNYnY9e3w3zCvasm3iBA4L9c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6f+Fb8K9Xd7afNWsbskSfn23k7K3GQOybdUOsV957MEy6fZsW4MEGpk5mKJjWibfN6kFdZbdPm7wpM2KEU6jE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:b0e:b0:132:a103:ae22 with SMTP id fq14-20020a0568710b0e00b00132a103ae22mr6795782oab.215.1668432911453; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 05:35:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> <83leodk7oi.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83leodk7oi.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:36:15 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000004d13405ed6e4f70" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --00000000000004d13405ed6e4f70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 1:05 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I think it really is such a widespread (and good) practice to include > cross-references in doc strings that it should be a no-brainer to > decide that supporting this practice is important. > OK, are these the only examples? Because my brain also tells me that these could be fixed by hand, for example: -previously found match, use `s-count-matches'." +previously found match, use `magnars-string-count-matches'." Of course, I agree that if we have this support in the docstring logic, it is more convenient to _not_ have to do this edit. Anyway, I hope everyone here is on the same page that whatever the implementation of that support is, when typing C-h f s-count-matches OR C-h f magnars-string-count-matches in a buffer where read-symbol-shorthands is non-nil, then what appears in the subsequent _global_ *Help* buffer is sth like: magnars-string-count-matches-all is a function defined in magnars-string.el Blabla... see, also magnars-string-count-matches. I.e. the name of the symbol is `magnars-string-count-matches`, not `s-count-matches`: that's just a local shorthand in that particular hypothetical buffer (the local shorthand s- being particularly popular for the library in question). IOW it would be plainly wrong to print the symbol as s-count-matches in the *Help* buffer. Even though that's a popular shorthand, another buffer where `s-` is already taken for `sandworms-` might have decided to use the shorthand `str-` instead for `magnar-string.el` I know I keep reminding this, I just want to make sure everyone understands this. Jo=C3=A3o --00000000000004d13405ed6e4f70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 1:05 PM Eli Zaret= skii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
I think it really is such a widespread (and good) practice to include
cross-references in doc strings that it should be a no-brainer to
decide that supporting this practice is important.
OK, are these the only examples? Because my brain also tells me=
that these could be fixed by hand, for example:

-previously found match, use `s-count-matches'."
+previously found match, use `magnars-string-count-matches'."

Of course, I agree that if we have this support in t= he docstring
logic, it is more convenient to _not_ have to do thi= s edit.

Anyway, I hope everyone here is on the sam= e page that
whatever the implementation of that support is, = when typing
C-h f s-count-matches OR C-h f magnars-string-co= unt-matches
in a buffer where read-symbol-shorthands is non-nil, = then what appears
in the subsequent _global_ *Help* buffer is sth= like:

=C2=A0 magnars-string-count-matches-all is = a function defined in magnars-string.el

=C2=A0 Bla= bla... see, also magnars-string-count-matches.

I.e. the name of the symbol is `magnars-string-count-matches`,
<= /div>
not `s-count-matches`: that's just a local shorthand in that = particular
hypothetical buffer (the local shorthand s- being part= icularly popular
for the library in question).
IOW it would be plainly wrong to print the symbol as s-count-ma= tches
in the *Help* buffer.=C2=A0 Even though that's a popula= r shorthand, another
buffer where `s-` is already taken for `sand= worms-` might have decided
to use the shorthand `str-` instead fo= r `magnar-string.el`

I know I keep reminding t= his, I just want to make sure everyone
understands this.
=

Jo=C3=A3o
--00000000000004d13405ed6e4f70-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 14 08:37:54 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2022 13:37:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49150 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZer-0000Cc-Ta for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:37:54 -0500 Received: from mail-oi1-f173.google.com ([209.85.167.173]:39700) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZeq-0000CP-EI for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:37:53 -0500 Received: by mail-oi1-f173.google.com with SMTP id m204so11377069oib.6 for <59082@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 05:37:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=duO0NiD+wE0e4SRIFpki0zPVLGoMeAWlKNZFNLQjr/A=; b=Xek2WXpAzWmmB/d7DcE37pS4+A3a1yYUzoU3KuIdLd4hbvE9//Nwo5lDSY6RpvSAdM NFjxguHavbE5/+v0ebV9Dq0DRzRZ2ZCXAHtw2uwJaqa7nVQ5rkRErNIGGCLQYIl8jwn2 XE8EJNTieLpsIHdr6bJdRWKSnnAKB5r7gTmNMJBrmHFzTU6MYqDE1X765fx+sI3V00G5 UNhz+Y4WFr2rdCctOa8T0tJOi7gZ74IAip8MCNYyXwNAHZRPm+PBiA/vhbKDyESP/l8A PngYcFYVrZHQ18Ta2Y/DYgrTepAgS33ZONpcUjI+iBzhBhkQfBDLJU3ZWPOrnrYcX6N7 Lt1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=duO0NiD+wE0e4SRIFpki0zPVLGoMeAWlKNZFNLQjr/A=; b=NhdYvUkMGxbRJfwTzlFEEFvdOitjSeCpc+IHXnvNmPURZ7mA9bsYDCevrCqK4iBRyg hp2IL/vzmdhld/AgO1Go5n122KTQInXqWU0W2LkXxvR7qJZ1H8NydudLYXKLWHNXzGzs cLHtE0ve1oHHgsZXWNswsABWz/zG/fkBCW/nY5fWnDg0gkhAL9qN5t0FjRlUDLEHpazG z84jb4EHP7osbld577ODjLvCMAtoiHIDxjN8Djj77hbfdUp4+JFCBQ+P0GehmJbFEkiS 1ZNO4D2UQrVFsh7qqFnYCm8b0Cx90n6wWrLO3+ovRJAuTxMltf5tBQ/H0W443fDeGoPs ozkw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pnA1YZVNLdPGISKHqmQD26WXPcMWKfIAft6uZBWVP+PK3HqedPT DxEpdasVFvqO5TUJzF3vqWPBvVYIvbN/0vDWLV0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6KZyiJA6sg2qGLQrtKha3rB5RRMrVsadTpW2I10jzvQpeEnXLsc1At3o9oFphfnKzEhkPb9376Ku1ZgF3w1/A= X-Received: by 2002:aca:3b06:0:b0:359:ca6a:7fc0 with SMTP id i6-20020aca3b06000000b00359ca6a7fc0mr5852973oia.215.1668433066936; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 05:37:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> <83iljhk7f0.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83iljhk7f0.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:38:50 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000494d2605ed6e58e9" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000494d2605ed6e58e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 1:11 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Correct, but this "read time" is "docstring read time", which I don't > think > > is technically the same as "Lisp read time". > > > > And I also agree that maybe we don't "need" this urgently, for s.el > > or at all. But it would be a nice-to-have, especially if it's easy to > > implement. > > The natural place to do that is where we prepare the Help buffer and > generate the cross-links. > If, by then, the link to the original value of `read-symbol-shorthands` in the original buffer (where the definition with the docstring was loaded from) has been severed, then it's not a good place. If this link still exists, then it's a good place. Jo=C3=A3o --000000000000494d2605ed6e58e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 1:11 PM Eli Zaret= skii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
> Correct, but this "read time" is "docstring read time&q= uot;, which I don't think
> is technically the same as "Lisp read time".
>
> And I also agree that maybe we don't "need" this urgentl= y, for s.el
> or at all. But it would be a nice-to-have, especially if it's easy= to
> implement.

The natural place to do that is where we prepare the Help buffer and
generate the cross-links.

If, by then, the link to the original valu= e of `read-symbol-shorthands` in
the original buffer (where = the definition with the docstring was loaded
from) has been = severed, then it's not a good place.

If this l= ink still exists, then it's a good place.

Jo= =C3=A3o
--000000000000494d2605ed6e58e9-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 14 08:56:56 2022 Received: (at 59082) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2022 13:56:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49155 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZxH-0000ez-Ne for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:56:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59522) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZxE-0000el-VV for 59082@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:56:54 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZx9-00008r-Ln; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:56:47 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=xv5ENntY8eTJtoRnlwXKq9/tQ5eEwce+cG1+9fhfFqk=; b=MikVrhzhofu5RYgSglRT k7AswnlXbExRfzQ36NwEgVUDFE66IFihi7gQ3aC1LW6C6rfLhH7AGS+9PMlCD//61+UThFZy9Ly3z MYTmv3BR8sMlf9nnRjIHGdN202eT2aiGxfgyrAB+kcJfXLD2Tth01jRDeFqmo9baapF42GcYBoQFg RwgTnPKB2pX4iJ+mw0+cGN2t88pJLriK1B3n8sEoG5qijPO+aQ7O3YB/ogMPBMr8WCqx5vmjblSTI IxnkDMBixzAd3g4/oHxu/+GeNpS47Y0fx3D14Od6vbX8fN6EsQZFu4oXfwJbx0pXP/Rp+LO7x/X6v DupPvixA4iXqvA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouZx8-0005SN-97; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:56:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:56:57 +0200 Message-Id: <83bkp9k5au.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:36:15 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols References: <875yfresq9.fsf@posteo.net> <831qq8ny2m.fsf@gnu.org> <87leog4018.fsf@posteo.net> <83o7tcm7ji.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt8wm5ai.fsf@gnu.org> <83leodk7oi.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 59082 Cc: thievol@posteo.net, rms@gnu.org, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:36:15 +0000 > Cc: rms@gnu.org, thievol@posteo.net, 59082@debbugs.gnu.org > > I think it really is such a widespread (and good) practice to include > cross-references in doc strings that it should be a no-brainer to > decide that supporting this practice is important. > > OK, are these the only examples? No, there are more.