From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 12:08:16 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 16:08:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58300 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oieHE-0001qG-Dn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:08:16 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:60266) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oieH9-0001q5-W0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:08:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47692) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oieH9-0005mZ-Pw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:08:07 -0400 Received: from mail-oo1-xc32.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::c32]:43532) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oieGy-00065r-I9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:08:06 -0400 Received: by mail-oo1-xc32.google.com with SMTP id m11-20020a4aab8b000000b00476743c0743so12438365oon.10 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:07:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=zBDFGHfTa8szO7I9I+39KHC0wWw2AakX0Gsrg4lmyYI=; b=foK0T18xlRLSoTyW8SNlS0ezw7BZywnz/iy4RCPI/a1qnIn95TNLtgUg5JGThflwMT OaKkn18t5UENHK1S2IdJJvSvjZxcDmUyD8em2LW3JGkLDBV/uVBkQOCK6b4m6ZqcT++M 0O7Q9+vduGDfhXeH8hzmaHIkTsCr+yUEWuT/cVA5SouK3wQ5fYYOTecLm5XEs3o1MdSo hguxivZYPBs+Yz2TL+XB/LBiGc6Lk5viBeM8xCVCjY51v9vKfH/EfYe9qltCoGe69gIf PmNmplFq3FHa0rsQEonjI4Psx6YUQUUxzBAKYWN3ftHXEvyDmaljmR6pFdLeAv8jPBNi /e3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=zBDFGHfTa8szO7I9I+39KHC0wWw2AakX0Gsrg4lmyYI=; b=zvh24GUqg8n2t/wzcx5ktYSp0awdDGr2FkL5II2UJmNi7kK1x49H6sg+Vl7meHGyuv f0/Ak7yYC0AzsMF0h/S+nmgx28knaPjT3l/Olgp+K3HI3WMQODHhs2NOy1AYNtNzvRNi GOV6ta4WfACCXbLkP5xhnub3dRm6b/BKna3KVm+TT9PicUTNMyiqAVeKuD/QS/Je0GOa W1axSRl3lhvQmFPkDlw0g6P6HL8/5jlfHkUZOqQxyYZrj3Wc2aZfOqKD8vmhlWj7hSqr 8WgT1HrYcCP0Jxh6NugLyIETxOL7ms8feEmIZIqaXAKrAjlJ5xRWLfAnWliSkEvfQKXN vpLg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0KskvjXPKrHttPud6ndDP0e+mAogheUKkP+gt6oahnGfAgAMMO TJ1C6LbA5axH572hzCpoMsB5cxNcnFdVLf3ZYCn6wBkE X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM73fhvxOpC9YVK7aI1mXVpdkzPH0E1YxdhZGqxTxUJL9VaYKw/RIDhPsqia0sjSW+1Ovknm4jmj8KCarAv4haw= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4003:0:b0:661:b434:7e95 with SMTP id m3-20020a9d4003000000b00661b4347e95mr3171144ote.224.1665590874593; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:07:53 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas X-Debbugs-CC: Paul Eggert X-Hashcash: 1:20:221012:bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org::LZjfxBwyO6HBlU6u:4yf8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:07:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0000000000006bf9d205ead89851" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::c32; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-oo1-xc32.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --0000000000006bf9d205ead89851 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is a proposal to make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions. For the first 1-2 characters, it uses the return value `user-uid', which on most single-user systems is a fixed value (for example, this gives us "87" on almost any single-user Debian machine).[1] It's also unnecessarily leaky of potentially privacy sensitive information. The next 8 characters are the current time, with some gymnastics to emulate support for a fractional part to seconds. This seems unnecessary now that, AFAIU, `time-convert' can do that for us portably (please correct me if I'm wrong, Paul). I suggest that we instead base the left-hand side of the Message-ID on: 1. (time-convert nil (expt 10 9)) 2. 2^N bits of pseudo random data (e.g. N=32) We can then ignore the effective user id, while significantly decreasing the risk of a Message-ID collision.[2] Currently, we get values like: (message-unique-id) => "87o7uhi3at.fsf" ; length 10 With the attached patch, we have instead: (message-unique-id) => "cnk29wgg1a4nvrpqcy.fsf" ; length ~22 Note also that `message-number-base36' uses a Caesar cipher for some reason: (message-number-base36 5 -1) => "u" ; expect "5" (message-number-base36 (expt 36 3) -1) => "yzzz" ; expect "1000" The patch fixes this also. I don't know if this change should be in NEWS or not. Footnotes: [1] Just for fun, you can search for 87 on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message-ID [2] See also: https://www.jwz.org/doc/mid.html --0000000000006bf9d205ead89851 Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset="US-ASCII"; name="0001-Make-message-unique-id-less-prone-to-collisions.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Make-message-unique-id-less-prone-to-collisions.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: 42bc85781fc6ac22_0.1 RnJvbSA1ZWVkZjg4YmI4NWU1YjRhOGExYmI1NTZkODU2MzI0YWE5MzMzMDQyIE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBTdGVmYW4gS2FuZ2FzIDxzdGVmYW5rYW5nYXNAZ21haWwuY29t PgpEYXRlOiBXZWQsIDEyIE9jdCAyMDIyIDE3OjI5OjA0ICswMjAwClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRDSF0g TWFrZSBgbWVzc2FnZS11bmlxdWUtaWQnIGxlc3MgcHJvbmUgdG8gY29sbGlzaW9ucwoKKiBsaXNw L2dudXMvbWVzc2FnZS5lbCAobWVzc2FnZS11bmlxdWUtaWQpOiBNYWtlIGxlc3MgcHJvbmUgdG8K Y29sbGlzaW9ucy4KKG1lc3NhZ2UtdW5pcXVlLWlkLWNoYXIpOiBNYWtlIHVudXNlZCB2YXJpYWJs ZSBvYnNvbGV0ZS4KKiB0ZXN0L2xpc3AvZ251cy9tZXNzYWdlLXRlc3RzLmVsIChtZXNzYWdlLXVu 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b=Z2kCngL5o9QiR+4pZYOp7+w4ewEtCAKGL/57/RVx3OUqhmTC59ONIbDtEmJ5nlV5w zLVU4DAFn6HMu/A25IAUxDjMp7KbM4DeCaqCdIovEAIg9sFbndrakj32UznboPOou7 6beeSN5O4FibOrLAMdwDbD/Ozw7dQqoXNW/1/8XM= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id aK7EmPoaEzDz; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 35C0A160080; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 11:08:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.2.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Stefan Kangas References: From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) On 2022-10-12 09:07, Stefan Kangas wrote: > This seems > unnecessary now that, AFAIU, `time-convert' can do that for us portably > (please correct me if I'm wrong, Paul). > > I suggest that we instead base the left-hand side of the Message-ID on: > > 1. (time-convert nil (expt 10 9)) > 2. 2^N bits of pseudo random data (e.g. N=32) (time-convert nil t) would be a bit more efficient. If the goal is to avoid collisions, though, wouldn't it be better to avoid the time entirely? time is not very random in the high order bits. Also, the comment about ".fsf" and other newsreaders is wrong. If we're generating IDs at random it doesn't matter whether we append ".fsf" as the ".fsf" itself could be randomly generated by another newsreader. The ".fsf" is just a comment or advertisement or debugging aid or what have you. And if we're changing the algorithm perhaps we should change ".fsf" to something else. Something like this, perhaps, where you can choose LEN as you like: (concat (let ((len 18)) ;; Pass LEN, not -1, to message-number-base36 so that it never ;; returns "" which would make the message-ID nonconforming. (message-number-base36 (random (expt 36 len)) len)) ;; Append ".gnu" to advertise that we're GNU Emacs. ".gnu") From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 22:46:24 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 02:46:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58721 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oioEp-0003KF-Mu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 22:46:24 -0400 Received: from mail-oi1-f174.google.com ([209.85.167.174]:36394) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oioEn-0003K3-Pw for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 22:46:22 -0400 Received: by mail-oi1-f174.google.com with SMTP id y72so452542oia.3 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:46:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=1GYc8hh3U8rQAECxkqZcgoHbwXjYQyB9dS5ZvWpjREY=; b=NP3riUD3oAmmq6ElsBJjwEGe1YoVESJ0+fyJFEZk91tYL8zQMol4K8oKG7MI+9HBO2 XYsd7MkA+HssFuZNL2pf7Z9N0ZQMInajwyv9K31e/p69Yu2k1da4CfWv2fG2TpopKUHR H/lT1iZuOUPWrRfb5ha8pFXcImi9g0iD+7O5EDmlr3oO1164G/hOSASMdrKdIt1oD1cO XvyGBFW9nDnMo7kcOMRj75CWg0fPzXan3eyR8BAizy75zYE9/bbdIk7+eANVr0+UT1PB Mif4UfWmxi8vK+Ca8E0M9Na9lVFkx8M32wMenZdo6EUfGCj9ZxYWQcW1HJVW41yhvf3/ khKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=1GYc8hh3U8rQAECxkqZcgoHbwXjYQyB9dS5ZvWpjREY=; b=SB1Uze+1TgdbFYJSVEjpNMWBOzWEUgutNDS7XTm7Jo6jOV3kUUUvN7AfMKb04tdTaf YawYt/OcocXjlYPAFQCdPaI2jcNV9/kKnEu8uzXG6iB7EA1/9lRXSBkO/IVfyBgVZ1/b 8V1cxgykbSuWcj6MfntjkIda0J40kbZIH4fMAipPpCHJNnc4qnmMNNPRvHdnxXoJmMVe quLQvWCQ1zY22xGxRlWxH3CODMbHgOOquUkecH6o+htk8O+gr1MNtxTHb8iXvSYYwydx V1cAfeLTP/5eS8sUhD+MuYtBOF4FU3AGzHj680nUTrhCaU2uvlU58HXtNXpCecBF7LFN HNYA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3FYLszqHVudT/U+vfYZTHJ1T0EAAdZmOvPXuewbCovzGYo3n78 alghuhemNCgVHNGjr1BNOuOsLkayO1bSpY1Te2k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6aebfjeUhTK8ppKDzVrzQDTWtjWIOB9OogTVUgOCebmf9KnCtY37v28lOjAbiZoTB+XWsc5mJpp9FNVcwpeag= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:d51:b0:354:fecd:6d11 with SMTP id w17-20020a0568080d5100b00354fecd6d11mr445231oik.92.1665629175886; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:46:14 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: X-Hashcash: 1:20:221013:58472@debbugs.gnu.org::qzd3Y88pU+1mkz7r:3O+G MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:46:14 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0000000000005b6ff705eae18353" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000005b6ff705eae18353 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Eggert writes: > If the goal is to avoid collisions, though, wouldn't it be better to > avoid the time entirely? time is not very random in the high order bits. The main goal is to avoid collisions, but using the time also gives an idea of when the message was sent, which is kind of nice. Time also guarantees a somewhat unique value even if the user has happened to set the random seed. If we limit the length of the time string to 12 characters, and the total length to 25 characters (including the ".gnu" part), we still have a guaranteed 9 characters of random data, or 46 bits of entropy. =E2=8C=8Alog=E2=82=82 36=E2=81=B9=E2=8C=8B =3D 46 If we want to guarantee 62 bits of entropy, we could do a total length of 28 characters instead, but that might be overkill. > Also, the comment about ".fsf" and other newsreaders is wrong [...] > And if we're changing the algorithm perhaps we should change ".fsf" to > something else. Changing it to ".gnu" makes sense to me. > Something like this, perhaps, where you can choose LEN as you like: > > (concat > (let ((len 18)) > ;; Pass LEN, not -1, to message-number-base36 so that it never > ;; returns "" which would make the message-ID nonconforming. > (message-number-base36 (random (expt 36 len)) len)) > ;; Append ".gnu" to advertise that we're GNU Emacs. > ".gnu") I think making sure it is always the same length is a good idea. 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Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58892 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiqEI-0006bX-QD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 00:53:59 -0400 Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.198]:37521) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiqEF-0006bG-9A for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 00:53:56 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 029A1C0004; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 04:53:46 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1665636828; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=/cJKUb9ee+F5o+n9fwqt4dxMAxOx/3mF6yf3mwSK9JU=; b=km74a00vSKuqDARoHF49tVn+2f7woQprV7hPCIoD3/P6lDYq3G+B5A6AWC7CkP76clDOFk 5PNdKaIWxiD1wab9JGan23JFfQb1r8pWoOFxKtwFF2mO85n76aJnWZlkNR/YMnSbmsD02L PDsIP7AtBhmM6h6o7ymF3CrCIIN6OBJ3YBLOUbzeof7tbJAo3EO12fdvk4l7b9wuEn2MID +/PP47hrBcdM3i5p/hQl0NMYv53bGoq9Ci3IzT+s1zjESma2BBAh+183Zlsi8U/5V1jc3i 5PKt/OkjQQQPv40aiGy6CcNmIkVOq+XpZ7yoEYKjD9YKtUPOmt611m1RfKh+qw== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1oiqE4-000972-2W; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 21:53:44 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:46:14 -0700") References: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 21:53:44 -0700 Message-ID: <87k054qq7b.fsf@rfc20.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > Paul Eggert writes: > >> If the goal is to avoid collisions, though, wouldn't it be better to >> avoid the time entirely? time is not very random in the high order bits. > > The main goal is to avoid collisions, but using the time also gives an > idea of when the message was sent, which is kind of nice. Time also > guarantees a somewhat unique value even if the user has happened to set > the random seed. Most email I get today to use a UUID or UUID-like Message-ID, like this: Message-ID: <736d10a6-001f-4a29-a1d4-554f58733b69@dfw1s10mta1086.xt.local> Message-ID: <1815053947.8446619.1665544925708@lor1-app45123.prod.linkedin.c= om> Message-ID: <01000183b9eaa6f8-411d1f4c-b573-472d-b45f-47b0c4eb6ace-000000@e= mail.amazonses.com> Message-ID: > If we limit the length of the time string to 12 characters, and the > total length to 25 characters (including the ".gnu" part), we still have > a guaranteed 9 characters of random data, or 46 bits of entropy. > > =E2=8C=8Alog=E2=82=82 36=E2=81=B9=E2=8C=8B =3D 46 > > If we want to guarantee 62 bits of entropy, we could do a total length > of 28 characters instead, but that might be overkill. I suspect that most mailers use more randomness than that. Some of the SHA hash algorithms are in the public domain. Could they be added to Emacs and used for UUID generation here? --=20 matt (sent from an Emacs running the feature/noverlay branch) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 07:46:21 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 11:46:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59810 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiwfM-00020J-DA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 07:46:20 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:33896) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiwf6-0001yM-7v for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 07:46:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=DV8hRLK3NQUD+k5uEpP2cK499+bvSHXjk5hcizP4tO4=; b=jBnHRGLPbZh6l2xnTd+oyFnGRK KgIkaJ/Qtn0g/BQBl07Mrq7waday+mn13oBYK1NpPn/lmtg8jFeNl3oJXTU6FX7shHSPj48ITCnlJ +7GmKULjXoK02vJU4SVc4iIj5zH8RgrA74y7Xj2u3L4UiwQCb+Ans80QXDUQP4UMRJW4=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oiwew-0007cl-5w; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:45:56 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:07:53 -0700") References: X-Now-Playing: Pink Industry's _Make More Noise (3)_: "I Wish" Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:45:53 +0200 Message-ID: <87tu486j66.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > For the first 1-2 characters, it uses the return value `user-uid', which > on most single-user systems is a fixed value (for example, this gives us > "87" on almost any single-user Debian machine).[ [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > For the first 1-2 characters, it uses the return value `user-uid', which > on most single-user systems is a fixed value (for example, this gives us > "87" on almost any single-user Debian machine).[1] It's also > unnecessarily leaky of potentially privacy sensitive information. Well, since it is "87" on most machines, it's not very leaky. =F0=9F=98=80 It's documented to be this way, though? That is, we've got tricks like being able to score on References based on your Message-ID to score up threads you've been a part of, etc. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 08:10:29 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 12:10:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59853 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oix2i-0002cz-Ps for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:10:29 -0400 Received: from mail-oo1-f43.google.com ([209.85.161.43]:45954) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oix2h-0002cb-0R for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:10:27 -0400 Received: by mail-oo1-f43.google.com with SMTP id s1-20020a4a81c1000000b0047d5e28cdc0so1157399oog.12 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 05:10:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Qn3wRAs/PEu3KxmZigE2KUXKOqIhoN7XVuBOqt7t6JQ=; b=HC/m9D/kUrf9OQteUi+tMp9cpNDb3VOJpRrTJiUT7nSLrlJ4X9ZuH7q//yA9NldCZ5 vd03x39jxwSSeVMjM/tIw/pZAa7xuLA1eyrx1MvEqufxm3wMr5uEjwDHdt8NMwIJxTql tRQzWVgzVCXgKIlP8+6lS1g7uPNHsE2Bxd5oolBp4DDZTEVUOdqJlHLDSPNQFF/7cw2V JIMDovpJViU+xPLrTwPZNMAplHXbXeQ0Y0jwNaIdt0p0MXsM8/iDOeAPyCvcGOqYLev0 tVWWTEtIxnyx1VB+K9QVt/HCCuhwpgmfDxRze5V2xMr59DSiuOf0/T7FpnV+cpyIpyNc /Vmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Qn3wRAs/PEu3KxmZigE2KUXKOqIhoN7XVuBOqt7t6JQ=; b=e64T3kgVkIzby3bjBFrduhQKO2cURKT7p2omRzQmU/Gbs07E2HhP4UcR5EZ9r5R3Xn fJ4ADJWZ8R1dpEfF0GaWPiEtDeBLfZ+8HjTsxpcNjhCtY4MqFRQOQx2Rd2XirvW8A3VY ugvjsUdJD+/rFRJwHw5M15e6rfB6heXPJiFOQ4J31Sl6O3p+i/azchmLgX6IK/KsuEo4 WT7GBwtW3MIUvEfWgdEqVPNoGZYHUhBqkolc0cSwYFkTZtIzoAKH4sLqcavvO4qBpV56 hMsqMbcrX+zlAf+dO+VUOBKa/VcEeTRQB5ICux/mfQ/Uonr4i1mca5qtlhd3h1bWnssJ UMQA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1GFGvXVLDjVZyvWCrtxK8X41XYy+YcT0xQkk9jP3NII4lCkqqY M6U5qGPnDRr6NTg2D2XyQrWC/dV+KDRG8Fg5f40= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7DEE6Vw6+PpzR1IUCSbegaMi0KL6KOpPpey3ydEGyB1uLoTTTEHfCfLJUblYvt4IKC0rqZYPf+gaQBPj2Euxs= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4003:0:b0:661:b434:7e95 with SMTP id m3-20020a9d4003000000b00661b4347e95mr4877468ote.224.1665663020201; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 05:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:10:19 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87tu486j66.fsf@gnus.org> References: <87tu486j66.fsf@gnus.org> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221013:58472@debbugs.gnu.org::6mEUZJxtEA3b9zOY:3AA6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:10:19 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > It's documented to be this way, though? Hmm, right (from `(message) News Headers'): =E2=80=98Message-ID=E2=80=99 This required header will be generated by Message. A unique ID will be created based on the date, time, user name (for the local part) and the domain part. Actually, the user name is currently only used on MS-DOS, AFAICT. So I guess the documentation is already wrong? > Well, since it is "87" on most machines, it's not very leaky. =F0=9F=98= =80 Until your name is "88", of course. ;-( > That is, we've got tricks like being able to score on References based > on your Message-ID to score up threads you've been a part of, etc. It seems flaky to use it for such scoring purposes though, as almost everyone is named "87"... Do we really have code that does that? Should we care? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 08:10:48 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 12:10:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59856 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oix32-0002dc-AA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:10:48 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f54.google.com ([209.85.160.54]:36738) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oix2z-0002dR-RZ for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:10:46 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-136b5dd6655so2037093fac.3 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 05:10:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7z/HIHnAu11emCP0wUdQwGClkRY44LSzhEwAQoqa6nE=; b=o6ztm5hUXFrz1QXsVTLHMcsmaQOlgPS9ZCGy9qAIzdTCtLhME/cgSRrkQ/Fed7p0h0 xn5Cl9ZF7ORatKcpODFdnvkELwv7L5rb//oSNalseOPKPX6jcwDpjg0jw6hZpABNbgPS S9Jp2P13JrOnm5PmwE9BcpLCvgBN/nNz0t2oPISOXNQ09gMv1SQn2KrciNmBuliLTSK2 9M0ngDS/JO+0J4H4X1lxEanxVPVYmDs63tVT70u3rB9JYkWIJ882w6wr8QEnWbuST2tV xXgcQte7hBeVub2CG7QybvM4gCwdp5tiKuqZncAkMbnJZ9IEfNqt0KDSQ0yuL7t8NqDM o2dA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7z/HIHnAu11emCP0wUdQwGClkRY44LSzhEwAQoqa6nE=; b=dlrkc/Tqxw75RERniaTr6C5Rl07BptKGgyq3Givg5OvLfV7l6Xb+Pp1L+daQGaxTkV 6y40KyQu0PxNYdZGM1z2InrEWittBPi8rsMjX/rlCb7NlMD/SOIFD1CHxdlqgV4hbJD0 XsP1/hpHsBe0Jey8kYZqHQTR+u56YZoMAGupXt9osVFNqU5hnZwOu//T+7pe9QicgDuC U2ZfJVC6W+ji/epd3Sa6BAUi/xCJ4AEe9HlM7L13r4GoFpJWc+03hvFDs+zb057tSae5 51dJEwarAyHJaO38zwynSGrZ3Il83JWqIInx242X9TskTAqzIoQbhLAlfBYcf2112O7Z hQ1w== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3IFhTmOYdLC6pRwdf+pn6ortAzfSHvTnFcfsMgQl2goF+MvKUd Mk4OMDpNa52ogIYj2eeD6dYjqSlPAY7x6o1cgFc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4EHjR/jXRv9vgCTDAafoC0Ht1ELEqj3HcYqGPv0f9lw1lBLMBGDI0828wNXkmJ6vcLBwiUe40tlWoYdhB+cYA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:d79a:b0:136:50d7:faa9 with SMTP id bd26-20020a056870d79a00b0013650d7faa9mr4973093oab.92.1665663040387; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 05:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:10:39 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87k054qq7b.fsf@rfc20.org> References: <87k054qq7b.fsf@rfc20.org> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221013:58472@debbugs.gnu.org::91W71/65Z8FQE+sC:3153 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:10:39 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Matt Armstrong Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Matt Armstrong writes: > Most email I get today to use a UUID or UUID-like Message-ID, like this: > > Message-ID: <736d10a6-001f-4a29-a1d4-554f58733b69@dfw1s10mta1086.xt.local> > Message-ID: <1815053947.8446619.1665544925708@lor1-app45123.prod.linkedin.com> > Message-ID: <01000183b9eaa6f8-411d1f4c-b573-472d-b45f-47b0c4eb6ace-000000@email.amazonses.com> > Message-ID: Those are 30-51 characters in length. I also note that Gmail uses both lower case and upper case characters. >> If we limit the length of the time string to 12 characters, and the >> total length to 25 characters (including the ".gnu" part), we still have >> a guaranteed 9 characters of random data, or 46 bits of entropy. > > I suspect that most mailers use more randomness than that. So I guess we might as well bump this up to 30 characters in total, which gives us 72 bits. The Message-IDs would look like: cnkrs75yamag1k7x8rnt3y50za.gnu@stefankangas.se cnkrifkirauwuwfkzs3rcit8cq.gnu@stefankangas.se We could go longer, but it's also nice to have something which is not an absolute abomination to look at. If we add in upper case characters too, we can encode the time with one less character. So we end up with 89 bits of randomness and this: 1Z2KnqE1t2bSgUWkcu53M34Y4y.gnu@stefankangas.se 1Z2KbUgleGoe0WRJ3jbiM0mE7W.gnu@stefankangas.se If we don't want to always start the Message-ID with the same characters (which makes them more distinct, at a glance), we could just reverse the time string: QlRXPpmK2Z1kUklxIpMNZpChOu.gnu@stefankangas.se Z59YikmK2Z1FSmYj172SAdPpuX.gnu@stefankangas.se > Some of the SHA hash algorithms are in the public domain. Could they be > added to Emacs and used for UUID generation here? We have `secure-hash'. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean to use a proper RFC 4122 UUID? All we need is for the Message-ID to be unique though, so some ad hoc solution is probably fine. 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Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:48:13 +0200 From: Stefan Kangas X-Hashcash: 1:20:221013:control@debbugs.gnu.org::E40KVXlryaJVdVMo:3uAd MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:48:13 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: control message for bug #58472 To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) severity 58472 wishlist quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 12:21:16 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 16:21:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34716 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0xP-0006Ki-Mb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:21:16 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:35670) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0xN-0006KM-AJ for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1AD13160056; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:21:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.2.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Stefan Kangas References: From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) On 2022-10-12 19:46, Stefan Kangas wrote: > The main goal is to avoid collisions, but using the time also gives an > idea of when the message was sent, which is kind of nice. That info is in the Date: line, along with zillions of other Received: lines. There should be no need to repeat it in the Message-ID line. > Time also > guarantees a somewhat unique value even if the user has happened to set > the random seed. If that's a concern, we should be using more-random data, e.g., with (base64-encode-string (secure-hash 'md5 'iv-auto 128 nil t)) if we want 128 bits of randomness (this yields a string like "B8a3usyu5QSE/rTLu0nIHg=="). As an aside, it's weird that there's no easy way to ask Emacs for an N-bit random integer, where the randomness is taken from system entropy. Shouldn't we extend Emacs to support that? E.g., (make-string 128 'iv-auto) could give you an N-byte entropy-derived random string, or (random -N) could give you an N-bit entropy-derived random nonnegative integer, or something like that. Then we could write something like this: (base64-encode-string (make-string 16 'iv-auto)) to get a Message-ID component with 16 bytes (128 bits) of entropy. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 12:35:22 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 16:35:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34768 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj1B4-0006js-8p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:35:22 -0400 Received: from relay7-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.200]:40661) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj1B1-0006jZ-J7 for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:35:20 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1A4E20010; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:35:09 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1665678911; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=BCvP1yk/dKYCBWlLbVYUlVn2ZwEwvHe3zhsqJ7yIzfo=; b=Zh4HCLErrsFxX9JLWLJjrWhMB2t6KVx8eo++MQ2SLVQZ/1loZ2v8D8NCNhOS9AISwzJ14q 0oe/N9LsSeia62MGLeuY8Y87ukHpU7eyLB7Y9yYVxwfCNycW3MSOofew3nA8nN6FekXe8V hxiGxYuX4Fu9V4kGLSkVy+fzpkDI2Tt6LQr9nHEyfKKoS55Z4hC9fCTuLz7Dx41DvCXMS8 K+4Uz0uOS4b8cBvTCSqBwjFxRlrhV+PqwtoMP3TIUNVE6eEMkbpwGkYllhbh8MBF8VQm09 6gIociesAf3Uucg8/zY6fVYIGaDZrXPXLY7xNABZcOQJ8prrKe1u9fVCqkemug== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1oj1Ao-000A9a-0f; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:35:06 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: References: <87k054qq7b.fsf@rfc20.org> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:35:06 -0700 Message-ID: <87h707r8at.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > Matt Armstrong writes: > >> Most email I get today to use a UUID or UUID-like Message-ID, like this: >> >> Message-ID: <736d10a6-001f-4a29-a1d4-554f58733b69@dfw1s10mta1086.xt.local> >> Message-ID: <1815053947.8446619.1665544925708@lor1-app45123.prod.linkedin.com> >> Message-ID: <01000183b9eaa6f8-411d1f4c-b573-472d-b45f-47b0c4eb6ace-000000@email.amazonses.com> >> Message-ID: > > Those are 30-51 characters in length. I also note that Gmail uses both > lower case and upper case characters. Yes, the Google example is probably a crypto secure hash base64url encoded. >>> If we limit the length of the time string to 12 characters, and the >>> total length to 25 characters (including the ".gnu" part), we still have >>> a guaranteed 9 characters of random data, or 46 bits of entropy. >> >> I suspect that most mailers use more randomness than that. > > So I guess we might as well bump this up to 30 characters in total, > which gives us 72 bits. The Message-IDs would look like: > > cnkrs75yamag1k7x8rnt3y50za.gnu@stefankangas.se > cnkrifkirauwuwfkzs3rcit8cq.gnu@stefankangas.se You said you like the timestamp prefix. How many times would that actually be useful, and for what? I am not seeing the utility myself, but I might be missing something. > We could go longer, but it's also nice to have something which is not an > absolute abomination to look at. > > If we add in upper case characters too, we can encode the time with one > less character. So we end up with 89 bits of randomness and this: > > 1Z2KnqE1t2bSgUWkcu53M34Y4y.gnu@stefankangas.se > 1Z2KbUgleGoe0WRJ3jbiM0mE7W.gnu@stefankangas.se > > If we don't want to always start the Message-ID with the same characters > (which makes them more distinct, at a glance), we could just reverse the > time string: > > QlRXPpmK2Z1kUklxIpMNZpChOu.gnu@stefankangas.se > Z59YikmK2Z1FSmYj172SAdPpuX.gnu@stefankangas.se Maybe use (base64url-encode-string str t) is an option? >> Some of the SHA hash algorithms are in the public domain. Could they be >> added to Emacs and used for UUID generation here? > > We have `secure-hash'. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean to use a > proper RFC 4122 UUID? > > All we need is for the Message-ID to be unique though, so some ad hoc > solution is probably fine. I am no security expert, so I'll end with this and then be quiet on this issue. :-) I agree that globally unique (with very high probability) is pretty easy to design in ad hoc ways within a private namespace. But Message-ID is not that. The Message-ID space consists of all Message-ID generated by all programs past, present and future. An impossible goal, given that the RFC basically says "go make something up, have fun with that", so it is a free for all. Given that, timestamp + short-rng + ".gnu" doesn't feel good enough to me, but I won't lose sleep if you use that solution. In these situations I usually feel better going with what seems like an existing practice: encode a crypto hash sourced from (possibly security sensitive) entropy available on the local machine. Inspired by https://nullprogram.com/blog/2010/05/11/ and the code linked there (https://nullprogram.com/download/uuid.el) I came up with this: ;; Written while discussing Emacs bug#58472 (defun my-message-unique-id() (let* ((object (format "%S|%s|%s|%s" (time-convert nil t) (random (expt 2 512)) (emacs-uptime) (emacs-pid))) (hash (secure-hash 'sha512 object nil nil t)) (encoded-hash (base64url-encode-string hash t)) (id (concat encoded-hash ".gnu"))) ;; Replace leading and trailing non-alnum with ?x. This is not ;; necessary to create strictly conforming Message-Id, but it makes ;; them less confusing in practice. (dolist (index `(0 ,(1- (length id)))) (let ((char (aref id index))) (when (or (eq char ?-) (eq char ?_)) (aset id index ?x)))) id)) This gives IDs like: lzD9K4s2GkiGmZhmP46M4ezv37sGEQO2tU2GX2mx-rs.gnu@stefankangas.se wEUY87gazgDLnsARlJZ5MEY4pgFZmDhxy9IZhbDLpfA.gnu@stefankangas.se VbUzrNkjJiCnZYiDzMdcqz2BqibzismlaR8ZkcU6O7E.gnu@stefankangas.se XX8f7gOrT1Iv-NLdZBjHgz8s4u4EF2uE7o-UttFgF0U.gnu@stefankangas.se tp9f3Up7ilsrH8XqtmQT4_evPkOO-EteN127d9bt85s.gnu@stefankangas.se One advantage of this approach is that it is possible to add more sources of entropy, or grow the hash function, without necessarily requiring a "format" version change, because we're relying on the hash for uniqueness in a sort of brute force way, not a schema and a hope that only Emacs uses it. One question: I'm not sure that (random (exp 2 512)) actually gives more entropy than a simple call to (random). It depends on Emacs' RNG. Last I checked there was code still calling something like rand(), which generally not intended for this purpose. P.S. if you go with your original approach, I think you want (expt 2 X) instead of (exp X). -- matt (sent from an Emacs running the feature/noverlay branch) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 12:38:45 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 16:38:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34787 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj1EK-0006q7-S6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:38:45 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:38228) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj1EI-0006ph-S2 for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:38:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D666D160075; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id iH5Wx3LOY6vp; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C12160076; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 zimbra.cs.ucla.edu 34C12160076 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=78364E5A-2AF3-11ED-87FA-8298ECA2D365; t=1665679115; bh=0xWAdHuHU2B0pTO3jcrmK3geldCgP0guxOH9gRARGLY=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:From:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=a5h8vbnHBiAKbY1hdmDEJJJbPCzTptiQPpbGFXPT/8iz1FIBwnSQXkZgbAipo6VGJ VFr7Vwhyu+OLhv1NI1sNvTNAl1kE+mZNSkEyVLqeqjcbAiAGLMaAAwufIGZpVS25/O T0NYgClOZnWPWkFeAEcGDTqhpI8rhwtlPJlRInbo= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id I-7JCSfibAR7; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 079F1160075; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:38:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.2.2 Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions Content-Language: en-US To: Matt Armstrong , Stefan Kangas References: <87k054qq7b.fsf@rfc20.org> <87h707r8at.fsf@rfc20.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: <87h707r8at.fsf@rfc20.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) On 2022-10-13 09:35, Matt Armstrong wrote: > One question: I'm not sure that (random (exp 2 512)) actually gives more > entropy than a simple call to (random). It does not. (Please see my previous email for how to get more entropy out of Emacs; it's kinda ugly now.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 15:16:11 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 19:16:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34980 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3gg-0002ie-TQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:16:11 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:38026) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3ge-0002iP-SZ for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:16:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ndfdd7HZ3jjohu6IY8/5Tdkqek/Q9lQYXXL6HLWXTRI=; b=la7g9uYv3xaT4Fg5xqQ5SURscx KhC3oDx+7Kha0j/x7Q+r8atqY59CqKoXZJCgVXghrkO3n3H9b5vIpIuUohLFYzxwJmjCYDXVU/CMQ LMKlA2cEFjtCVaHqE0y4f6nt6uWlK+aUxbusxes6tIlM30XoZTpVvlca3D35svhq+buk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3gV-0006vm-S4; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:16:02 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:10:19 +0000") References: <87tu486j66.fsf@gnus.org> X-Now-Playing: Arovane's _Atol Scrap_: "amine (2021 Remaster)" Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:15:59 +0200 Message-ID: <87v8on5yc0.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > Hmm, right (from `(message) News Headers'): > > ‘Message-ID’ > This required header will be generated by Message. A unique ID > will be created based on the date, time, user name (for the local [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > Hmm, right (from `(message) News Headers'): >=20 > =E2=80=98Message-ID=E2=80=99 > This required header will be generated by Message. A unique ID > will be created based on the date, time, user name (for the local > part) and the domain part. >=20 > Actually, the user name is currently only used on MS-DOS, AFAICT. > So I guess the documentation is already wrong? Is says "based on", not that the user name is actually in the string. (And it uses the uid instead, but same same.) >> That is, we've got tricks like being able to score on References based >> on your Message-ID to score up threads you've been a part of, etc. > > It seems flaky to use it for such scoring purposes though, as almost > everyone is named "87"... Do we really have code that does that? > > Should we care? I thought I remembered it being a part of the scoring section of the manual, so either it's been removed or I misremember. But that's the reason the algo is the way it is now -- it allows you do do stuff based on in References/In-reply-to etc. If there's only one UID per domain (which is the case these days), that's less of a thing, of course. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 05:22:19 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 09:22:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35771 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ojGtX-00029m-E5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 05:22:19 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f49.google.com ([209.85.160.49]:39575) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ojGtS-00029H-Kx for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 05:22:17 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f49.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1322fa1cf6fso5191171fac.6 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 02:22:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5+S4ELI1DP/RC+MDPstKg/ANgfNqztJ5UUQawL9T3JM=; b=LQzL1EfRNXMjzVLOuSdPVIrgD5ToDQtkb1egGCKW+5xgbtmxchENwER5OgL+mVQWhO 9muUJH4jEyibEUjoRYgIzp25TYALWXOOuoJiFPTKAlyhFC+/gdfPrmU3q/dnxI27ouOf hKFLVxCkDWN+GDCK9HoMijk4Ow1v7ERpz+MZbRteQf5jpRIkhfMD5S29B2vc8swk0kbx LX2cS5tTyXnKympRnkoTZ9OOZPhXlWkyr85RGGjOsflIBGT9t4MSSxKmdIUnje1/surV cyvunc1VpWl88jOGqtCN2V5PdUrxWKq6rEuoUgYUnoKShEquTY8yxmONi1xFZPeVq2Am EpBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5+S4ELI1DP/RC+MDPstKg/ANgfNqztJ5UUQawL9T3JM=; b=yYQV5BucQPL4iJPcklkCa7Arb6p7n42d/S40Ykrue95AK57LBlvZ0idGaIZWNl6nrl PSWiZbSnds5h73RQ6KGgsMoQbqyLIJ71Wni0OONczgogQNbkiWVjAl8X/Yig1kV5Kdio boZ0rzdeCNOLUdyEUncMBmSXIQGj6KALtZo0yGUz6tUd+2a0LySQ2Y5vHKoFVvUngmid YtRsCMsCJKs1JY5gPAUADl8SZhRqOnWDxXXt+2F1ZnAr4RplFx19He/d+SpHV+VC0yHE MwXA4DW+ajFypOfnkDOX2XW12loMyUMmOHR4TZPC0Akg/rmFhB4rdJu0Jahy8YyjpHss mqeg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1TyYAfoxma84THuuKLLMSRd48Kvohbxo4KvYnaGqhsdNPk2Ken uNP0eHN5HWZpkx1numF0s0mVl1Qj0CFXbcyZgP4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6soNyQURF1Z0fVMF81RaVxMpjZxY2+6reSQHA/a44dRmCh2XgFNfbrtSgUH0mr+mT+jC4H+enVZkhaSBuipr4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr7957331oae.199.1665739329199; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 02:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 11:22:08 +0200 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87h707r8at.fsf@rfc20.org> References: <87k054qq7b.fsf@rfc20.org> <87h707r8at.fsf@rfc20.org> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221014:matt@rfc20.org::JYfkTujJFnjoC8I/:2USo MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 11:22:08 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Matt Armstrong Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Matt Armstrong writes: > Inspired by https://nullprogram.com/blog/2010/05/11/ and the code linked > there (https://nullprogram.com/download/uuid.el) I came up with this: That's pretty neat! > One question: I'm not sure that (random (exp 2 512)) actually gives more > entropy than a simple call to (random). It depends on Emacs' RNG. Last > I checked there was code still calling something like rand(), which > generally not intended for this purpose. Ouch, indeed. I think we should use the stuff Paul pointed to, which AFAICT just punts to Gnulib. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 05:22:24 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 09:22:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35774 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ojGtb-0002A5-Nx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 05:22:24 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f49.google.com ([209.85.160.49]:34696) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ojGtY-00029W-OZ for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 05:22:21 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f49.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1321a1e94b3so5221735fac.1 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 02:22:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XP69grA8CU5BIRUEFl88VcvLghceuOuO/35b2i4A33c=; b=W+NGsGQ012nZh83Sg7Uth4pCeiIRdi8zjmRo5BJrvdsQ97x3PRKESiJ9EY/avoO6kq OOov2hyFrZerYnyXa/SdVeLZ9zhH5zcSpVv95a4MC7+YXQgC1FbeeO2p8ZAHjT9OqVZS 1nODf1Bk7Is7uhI9j1FOYTgV3vnBsM6qnOjQr+8+nFK6eKjMDatHTpfzBO9kWrNI1YJU yABPD1xtyw8fT0Oc/6rmZMAFdQky+bGmAZZvT8PyRHh8GFc3xTxjNCyv6fy8/F5GMnqm AXdrA4w6LR6axNxTua75+hwYTGWU3Djv19pzBPYmQjQ9RuSkRfavE5AKQcRPHDxHZWmS WTXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XP69grA8CU5BIRUEFl88VcvLghceuOuO/35b2i4A33c=; b=SreJytpvLarNzJ5UHIMz4Gtns0beQ3yheV+np41Qv3c2fcdAG4uplMsolXwdZ7L3Zo WUzuxq3zCyCwp8h4sedBKfwUakfCDHpJ0oMS7u/JzC5fl5QnVgl5v6xO8InW1DQ1jG7R +qZArykO588KBUk4vpjwJcPJszP6FET9KzBN4SIacaqTBr/XBf1Cz/CYDBKitVADIgvW Zlp+VeL0HqfNzsO9ziqdaYq9LA/LlmT622s0JPqtBdKMxVh6heBmFtWwyCGhdShp9Vnu vkTIGv1YSrFeD5ON3vTjcDdhLunioVH3U7reKS/dSoy+sjPUALCcSZcFGVyiYBF8I5pi cFcA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2Actv5F5X9hmPnibs+GYvPXyf1ccV3pfzjBJgM/FdxH2/pCzXk mnyB/WuGaPoCIUVjTKIMx0aoJEnfWYt8CpdoLJuCd7z+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM543XAznGlaixaViTvpa+VfG0YXWO8gLSIfPA35Ta45Wy/7QQltzLnwnMLqmzxrSlM81K8l1/dzvHu/uM1ozaE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr7957485oae.199.1665739335413; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 02:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 11:22:15 +0200 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: X-Hashcash: 1:20:221014:matt@rfc20.org::QRB+u2lpf+YGObX5:4JFM MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 11:22:15 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Matt Armstrong X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Paul Eggert writes: > That info is in the Date: line, along with zillions of other Received: > lines. There should be no need to repeat it in the Message-ID line. OK, let's use only random data. > If that's a concern, we should be using more-random data, e.g., with > > (base64-encode-string > (secure-hash 'md5 'iv-auto 128 nil t)) > > if we want 128 bits of randomness (this yields a string like > "B8a3usyu5QSE/rTLu0nIHg=="). Sounds good to me, but: The only reference I find to `iv-auto' is in (info "(elisp) Format of GnuTLS Cryptography Inputs"). The `secure-hash' OBJECT parameter is documented like this: The argument OBJECT should be a buffer or a string. Is the documentation incomplete? > As an aside, it's weird that there's no easy way to ask Emacs for an > N-bit random integer, where the randomness is taken from system entropy. > Shouldn't we extend Emacs to support that? E.g., (make-string 128 > 'iv-auto) could give you an N-byte entropy-derived random string, or > (random -N) could give you an N-bit entropy-derived random nonnegative > integer, or something like that. Then we could write something like this: > > (base64-encode-string (make-string 16 'iv-auto)) > > to get a Message-ID component with 16 bytes (128 bits) of entropy. Yes, we should find a better interface here. We also have `cl-random', which I think support float values. Perhaps `random' should do the same? (See also Bug#9103.) Oh, and whatever we do, we should probably also document it in `(elisp) Random Numbers'. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 16 03:33:08 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2022 07:33:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43228 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ojy8y-0003c6-2P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 03:33:08 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f54.google.com ([209.85.160.54]:46933) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ojy8v-0003bU-7P for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 03:33:07 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1326637be6eso10391239fac.13 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 00:33:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=LACH3a4wnRsldMaDYU4JnjFjA/SDcZ5U/OJe2SYpX10=; b=MutvcuUAVqgcLGGTdpaNO7fFpoocC4nUSYLnveNon4w+1/uvgaBKptyKWMLH8A96cg onhpPdy3ztZoZ2+F+gSWKUApoPcCRQIgOKfiRHR6PAh/w30D9hK5AUgPgVYdzmN544SM WxuF2YHEbZgOYLcG8DVPazZLlznBZW+PXlHRr3s4nynRlMFr+PD96PRaqomkEXyK3CBu 77aF4HGq6O2uTHFsbtv+n6hFMwSn/iK2jiG+7Dn+RpzyH6+5xu8beFTqX8+vYQAkp3py qTg6uWKqd/a5mhelvm3FXquWpIBPuWvGkzdU2jyMkqruVBmq4rY1vMZfYieaeRIYNTAt DcCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=LACH3a4wnRsldMaDYU4JnjFjA/SDcZ5U/OJe2SYpX10=; b=42VQfUiqyg9g3xLX35KanWr7US9pBj4hbvQGSMzRl+nbqYZWOrMs2ebuJ6Bemcndvi xXq1eaWreEeWiOWTur0d5oH7Cmf7SU2h1U7YI2xqT+a/yPL0WqkMfWGfzbwJs75JMILC yUMNrrZg/7KmWGXYaJej4oHHl9p+dGY0R1Cw89YD7yyc5VW9/sJvzu1gYcQIU9scZy3Y aFMjuXqFoZfIuJNtm1rzoZ6Ng+agOg+5khdcmPQLO5sXIQp7SfQF1+1wGzW4X5UVqwIL sxLtkczq8zFlcDNM9HfebuhZMu3Wvt1x9FoOldf9cd9JtioSWyRNQH+u2MdqafYPLdKl xS0A== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf08oaqgp5UKdPf6eyKmKXk6BOrOLIwr6CCY/o83eGoAH2efAZAr Y+mAz3CWuwpAJ9XmIuAsb9qvQ5z2BSMfZkPQbZg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4o6piECmWBoSShFEvSmB/wS5AYkq8LCTKK6KyVvm5BSWMul1FWs8zWJ51dfiRmrMtACWEW7Sefl7NcU2bZlhU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr12667330oae.199.1665905579335; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 00:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 00:32:58 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: X-Hashcash: 1:20:221015:58472@debbugs.gnu.org::h0sRKAilpfVUyGR3:5+mT MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 00:32:58 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Matt Armstrong X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: >> If that's a concern, we should be using more-random data, e.g., with >> >> (base64-encode-string >> (secure-hash 'md5 'iv-auto 128 nil t)) >> >> if we want 128 bits of randomness (this yields a string like >> "B8a3usyu5QSE/rTLu0nIHg=3D=3D"). > > Sounds good to me, but: Looking at the implementation of `secure-hash', doesn't this run the random number through the MD5 function? I guess that will reduce entropy, as AFAIU hash functions like MD5 are not really bijective functions f: =E2=84=95 =E2=86=92 =E2=84=95. (In other words, it does not g= ive you a permutation of the set of all natural numbers.) I don't think it matters for generating a Message-ID, but I thought it was worth pointing out. So if I'm right, you might not want to use this particular method for generating cryptographic keys, if anyone happens to be doing stuff like that in ELisp. In any case, I do think we should add an easy way of directly accessing the getrandom(2) syscall [or equivalent]. >> As an aside, it's weird that there's no easy way to ask Emacs for an >> N-bit random integer, where the randomness is taken from system entropy. >> Shouldn't we extend Emacs to support that? E.g., (make-string 128 >> 'iv-auto) could give you an N-byte entropy-derived random string, or >> (random -N) could give you an N-bit entropy-derived random nonnegative >> integer, or something like that. Then we could write something like this= : >> >> (base64-encode-string (make-string 16 'iv-auto)) >> >> to get a Message-ID component with 16 bytes (128 bits) of entropy. > > Yes, we should find a better interface here. How about `secure-random' (named in analogy with `secure-hash')? (secure-random 8) =3D> <8 byte number> This is the same interface as the Linux getrandom(2) system call, and the portable function in Gnulib, so it's easy enough to implement. BTW, we currently call getrandom with flags 0 in extract_data_from_object. Should we consider using GRND_RANDOM? The Linux kernel uses the same code path for /dev/random and /dev/urandom these days, IIUC, so maybe it doesn't matter. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 16 11:20:12 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2022 15:20:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45896 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ok5Qx-0005E6-L0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:20:11 -0400 Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.197]:54463) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ok5Qv-0005Dl-7b for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:20:10 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F94B1C0003; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 15:20:00 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1665933602; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=6WR3ygEX1ZvfLtRmDoN6a3NH7TNOp8zxriyfQYSb4C0=; b=TRTBV9QnOaGxQlG6AHmA37DzKqQrZZDBg2f1xgt11dYNDrhhWYyhebznLgxN5Q0/gPhpOv aWadeLjxPKFqTRB5MzrCIVDfFB38MsOsuR0PpjfoPz3qq2jS2tDKRKS4MzKGdFezvb2rkH 7nTtvJ1P4Q/pMdNyjm3aAy+eoyUP8r9MRnGpRwl6xYfgUZXAZBu3Au/LhsLx1DVg9+OFwJ ghNMCSJarrdnKKiw+vwAQutZme74zfim8QJxfnchPHl8ZLwbimnr+3Gap+Zs7NeIj5vfco qzDCercICpvCIZ9OZPFCtqbKrGQa3whE3w6RlIts/wwzhKlfaApGKbsoj39cYw== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1ok5Qk-001LK9-0V; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 08:19:58 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong To: Paul Eggert , Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 08:19:57 -0700 Message-ID: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Paul Eggert writes: > On 2022-10-12 19:46, Stefan Kangas wrote: > >> The main goal is to avoid collisions, but using the time also gives an >> idea of when the message was sent, which is kind of nice. > > That info is in the Date: line, along with zillions of other Received: > lines. There should be no need to repeat it in the Message-ID line. > >> Time also >> guarantees a somewhat unique value even if the user has happened to set >> the random seed. > > If that's a concern, we should be using more-random data, e.g., with > > (base64-encode-string > (secure-hash 'md5 'iv-auto 128 nil t)) > > if we want 128 bits of randomness (this yields a string like > "B8a3usyu5QSE/rTLu0nIHg=="). Small suggestion: `base64-url-encode-string` avoids any trailing `===` and uses slightly preferable non-alnum chars (I think). But both can generate Message-Id with "command line switch" chars: either ?- or ?/. Since some tools expect users to work directly with Message-ID at times (https://notmuchmail.org/) it might be nice to avoid leading non-alnum chars, and possibly avoid '-' to avoid any confusion with a UUID (in the sense of the schema defined by the RFC standard). Maybe a base 62 encoder could be written just for this, as Emacs' version of this doesn't need to be fast. Can a string be turned into a non-negative bignum integer in (simple) elisp? -- matt (sent from an Emacs running the feature/noverlay branch) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 16 12:49:54 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2022 16:49:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45974 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ok6pl-0001NI-R9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 12:49:54 -0400 Received: from mail-oo1-f46.google.com ([209.85.161.46]:42937) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ok6pj-0001N4-Rw for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 12:49:52 -0400 Received: by mail-oo1-f46.google.com with SMTP id r15-20020a4abf0f000000b004761c7e6be1so2345532oop.9 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 09:49:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=X04eCmDiRAyfWBAUxuP8jGwpNcL9q8DcNFwKIPZrWi4=; b=hj5IHRQvHupd8NPENa+8CC6tdRaijzvCFLgxx+1V7VgzyH9AjYbjhhARpNeKF2kVq5 CvGEeq2XLULwnD31ihrEfon48ZhIoPzEOPS4lJ9zh4WbPiCaOMcsk7EkNuc6izbJ4HA4 PGc8glQDi66qHfujeSCc3AmKM27TuZqYQQezAiEMRBpZVO8xAh7C4g6DY30/pHfJprLW vEQ+MeWtkGQNKy/D/hwK4gPmHVhUYobUyjBLjc+xlPcfcJhlUq4+xA0x7NZUt3rME9if nJuJBDE2cZJeq0kN8/9WyPhgufA/SCD+vZUsA9iiSZhJkCdLhVmbfjDlXhqalT2Ue3tn /f6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=X04eCmDiRAyfWBAUxuP8jGwpNcL9q8DcNFwKIPZrWi4=; b=kkSgc0bWAmzBUIgeALcMU+2JM6LNS/3/oar3+ASQ2nGJBEgjS8uE2JEw75/3YO6GFo GeyG5O9/coSNe+yg7M+lCAcN/vYcx3aQBlVnBMp5/cPt6EGbIxG7owrmKVPT9pNSDLAC BKAnCvsap9uZH+FzFqtifkzZKPx2+sbeI53ip1fygluDdQFRZbg5hIt/LYZrgjSpG994 b8mGPwjMbJXypRy2ZtuXF+VpCDfh27eYkoAyIXbvpqK6waCTvvUw1suotYa+lxmC04mZ uZYKSaph8TLDOomCNkAM7Wl02fHMlO4yhkRMLRa67LMoAH5aiWQJoyJ2lh2eezxeV/n8 XE0A== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3Ds/Nt0TDNDhiUPLCNZFi2WBgApzsPii263AlNt+luWmXmr7Va n7XO/Vz1mZ99Iu1vWNJEg4ibFYzwcZ2tD5EN+Zg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7K60CPUWO+27C7fnSsdpujllBMpAJMfRr1qbSsL0OzvWEkUre786ytULf7FrPuFTlL/TcTq7Ger4x9dHVuPnE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:1746:b0:47f:926a:286d with SMTP id bf6-20020a056820174600b0047f926a286dmr2790072oob.5.1665938986012; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 09:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:49:45 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221016:58472@debbugs.gnu.org::b0q0e+jWfcchq76g:74oI MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:49:45 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Matt Armstrong , Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Matt Armstrong writes: > Since some tools expect users to work directly with Message-ID at > times (https://notmuchmail.org/) it might be nice to avoid leading > non-alnum chars, I agree that it'd be nice to just use alpha-numeric characters. > Maybe a base 62 encoder could be written just for this, as Emacs' > version of this doesn't need to be fast. A base62 encoder is just `message-number-base36' with the A-Z range added. I think I included that in a previous patch. > Can a string be turned into a non-negative bignum integer in > (simple) elisp? Does this look reasonable? (seq-reduce (lambda (a i) (+ (ash a 8) i)) (secure-hash 'md5 'iv-auto 128 nil t) 0) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 16 13:05:44 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2022 17:05:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46028 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ok755-00042a-Oz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 13:05:43 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f54.google.com ([209.85.160.54]:39454) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ok754-00042O-DJ for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 13:05:42 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1322fa1cf6fso11154360fac.6 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:05:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KMzl9A62qlodGAvZiFIsthrWq4cceQbam4EPYDkgirQ=; b=bmCTnt3tbaAmIdTSyW3I+yR2DRd6NwOiGZikmdwmEgULbu+1wY33yuXmGYnR8rWV2y LEiySgPbrpTwGcGqZflfUCsm1luOajIYv2Rq4dA8U/UkniTgUk1aTfFoo4rsjVuO3ui4 OzQwjjBGYDR1we9/sO3MFTaykr1p4+m6F2woaHMLAyUdY+cDCq1kz2csgWy9oT+NI1IA 66T6a/IwEIM7iOI3VVQdqtDrzlG9AF/pMVweRN1hN4Ott+RYx05fbeOI1qQ2WxCKo9ss x916iYqPtmxhRFWQfQSAT+ZuS96PaCLN45R65RcxSIMi55gTq+ylGJMfdKC/19Qxw6kv D4Dg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KMzl9A62qlodGAvZiFIsthrWq4cceQbam4EPYDkgirQ=; b=uAE7sWwrx94OV6HUlEaFDZOo4/AObTDJCzne0pmk2i9RtbQLgOeQI9YEbKGTiXmo5Q yKvPAa+33vFTp+zzgxJsbovqkljm6O8mgZjAgxNAjd8McjrQCh6PPXReGDN6m0SNAeTR PRDGj2IXOfSCTEBqmZfptHxdO0ueSTD+NBaZPEUJk6G7sY9EQyvXhnwVTnHxlamICtkw trHGobss/SW4tdglon09/XWd8mFjgbGHTV+GASKO7yw2+mDKn8lFnJJFXhFzSJv+N4CT 5x+2v/QCirsUk5UWfll2/TayS6HERce19N3Em3kHGPcBfrB0G83amVm37WT67ziBainl SF5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf15MvjE/BYWTSRGgGjmkr2HpuII0acGSI8pJvvXDCBAW2Jn7QDc YXVh68sf0xgXCavtwSv+CYP+aOdTQUpl42pnxfk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6uARtGSGuNely8zfVRI4JV6avnH2XbONbaiVxD2yOXMUohruSlJqf1AELC1OmaniJ/8sZnfWeuNLJj6VKdSPg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr13565090oae.199.1665939936771; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 17:05:36 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: X-Hashcash: 1:20:221016:58472@debbugs.gnu.org::4PwZkB/ElGPpGa2f:Fr+x MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 17:05:36 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Matt Armstrong X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > BTW, we currently call getrandom with flags 0 in > extract_data_from_object. Should we consider using GRND_RANDOM? linux.git/include/uapi/linux/random.h says that: /* * Flags for getrandom(2) * * GRND_NONBLOCK Don't block and return EAGAIN instead * GRND_RANDOM No effect * GRND_INSECURE Return non-cryptographic random bytes */ But the story is probably not the same on other systems, according to the glibc documentation, so we should probably not change this. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 02:17:44 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 06:17:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46928 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okJRX-0006h5-OR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 02:17:43 -0400 Received: from relay8-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.201]:57397) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okJRU-0006gp-KV for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 02:17:41 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 05FC01BF207; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 06:17:30 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1665987454; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=IkhJmGuJuaYduBOztOC/SCunJx8ihKMQqISmvznp2oU=; b=XcmsZ8At6KV8Sbwxpm6aeypi+byc+Ddkqw45qzqcWf9wCBiTekGvSWQ4JX5/RHGBziq4mS +0IbGAdBgm5QVJrxwPquFlhsQCRPpjoO8cLxALRtqnWIwnOoZdONFbUNeZDAaGriX5+sAK xxDTiM1Y6HwT4QdpmvlMCJMCUCmdR+Vlj9lAEmwshy/F2yDMPCUOXOCCzVp+02ZUj1MMI1 L9GYI5lcg6L2vGpciha2G68JhIqQ1CaU9BdGkYk5F+tduCpvrXsnh3MnBd0FaYu6ks9nyl UJeTXqHhGIFYom6nKMo9rnFJmsyI28g7sw39VXYBM2AmR99wt9vezjqVvBq9Ng== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1okJRI-000tRi-2X; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:17:28 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong To: Stefan Kangas , Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:17:28 -0700 Message-ID: <87wn8zas93.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > Matt Armstrong writes: > >> Can a string be turned into a non-negative bignum integer in >> (simple) elisp? > > Does this look reasonable? > > (seq-reduce (lambda (a i) (+ (ash a 8) i)) > (secure-hash 'md5 'iv-auto 128 nil t) 0) Yep, not too bad, thanks. -- matt (sent from an Emacs running the feature/noverlay branch) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 03:31:04 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 07:31:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47071 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okKaV-0000Hg-C4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 03:31:04 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:48512) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okKaS-0000HB-03 for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 03:31:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C006B16006F; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id aCVY4HCq76qr; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EFC16007F; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:30:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 zimbra.cs.ucla.edu F0EFC16007F DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=78364E5A-2AF3-11ED-87FA-8298ECA2D365; t=1665991850; bh=51c17FlyEH33GV4byNJFY0AtLEPBVPV875WEWzztDKU=; h=Content-Type:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:From; b=jo60axmNYW/xORzlhh6hO4mapAIUWAfgRY8Py3kpyqyPNMj2cXx3HBWynmDalcPqQ elYTzZAQiPm/mghQf096bkR4fObNzFd+m/QBLoiucaeBn+V3wLn1yAA8NEytwBkXmB knDHW/pj2g1JF5OOUY0Sk1FPls4/+Vcf9pd2MTrc= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id rt8S4tImZ_la; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A324616006F; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------bVbBeQyfEb0W4nxZErMm2uqU" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:30:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.2.2 Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions Content-Language: en-US To: Stefan Kangas , Matt Armstrong References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------bVbBeQyfEb0W4nxZErMm2uqU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been looking into this and have several patches along these lines. None of them address message-unique-id directly yet (I plan to tackle this soon) but they do address the general problem area. The basic idea is to use a new make-nonce primitive. I thought I'd email the patches now to see what others think about the direction they're headed. --------------bVbBeQyfEb0W4nxZErMm2uqU Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-No-need-to-call-w32_init_random.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-No-need-to-call-w32_init_random.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSA4MGMxOGNiNDBjM2M5ZGRkNTZlODgwMTkzODdhMzgyN2QwZjZhZGQwIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBQYXVsIEVnZ2VydCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1 PgpEYXRlOiBTdW4sIDE2IE9jdCAyMDIyIDEwOjQ4OjI5IC0wNzAwClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRD SCAwMS8xMF0gTm8gbmVlZCB0byBjYWxsIHczMl9pbml0X3JhbmRvbQpNSU1FLVZlcnNpb246 IDEuMApDb250ZW50LVR5cGU6IHRleHQvcGxhaW47IGNoYXJzZXQ9VVRGLTgKQ29udGVudC1U cmFuc2Zlci1FbmNvZGluZzogOGJpdAoKKiBzcmMvc3lzZGVwLmMgKGluaXRfcmFuZG9tKTog SnVzdCB1c2UgZ2V0cmFuZG9tLApzaW5jZSB3ZeKAmXJlIGFscmVhZHkgdXNpbmcgaXQgdW5j b25kaXRpb25hbGx5IGVsc2V3aGVyZS4KLS0tCiBzcmMvc3lzZGVwLmMgfCA4ICstLS0tLS0t 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17 Oct 2022 08:14:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47163 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLGJ-0003jO-93 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:14:15 -0400 Received: from mail-ot1-f53.google.com ([209.85.210.53]:37814) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLGE-0003j3-F6 for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:14:14 -0400 Received: by mail-ot1-f53.google.com with SMTP id r8-20020a056830120800b00661a0a236efso5361327otp.4 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 01:14:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7E3RZxR7SoH7LR5zl3/jcG/tdubV4pVrqqx2D8TeANg=; b=Ayz7tyW0lZoBJ1NR8D706OOSXeW6cSiq4YZ893yoQzqkzOdIONTOAsnrz8jk/PVtsp mS60MDkR5xS30yUKLiZA7zoINCRGvmxCU4SL+Pbz9PNU37aqUEu1IKC143lXlu31d7+u 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List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000001182b205eb368f1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Paul Eggert writes: > I've been looking into this and have several patches along these lines. > None of them address message-unique-id directly yet (I plan to tackle > this soon) but they do address the general problem area. The basic idea > is to use a new make-nonce primitive. Thanks! I have read your patchset, which looks good to me. I have also attached my latest patch for `message-unique-id', but I'm not married to it if you have something better in mind. It could easily be updated to use `make-nonce' though. > (defun math-init-random-base () [...snip...] > + (declare (obsolete nil "29.1"))) This is a nit, but perhaps this could be simplified to: (declare-obsolete-function-alias 'math-init-random-base #'ignore "29.1) > diff --git a/src/sysdep.c b/src/sysdep.c > index 4786c8fa4f..5117460fc0 100644 > --- a/src/sysdep.c > +++ b/src/sysdep.c > @@ -2159,6 +2159,22 @@ seed_random (void *seed, ptrdiff_t seed_size) > set_random_seed (arg); > } > > +/* Set BUF, of size BUFSIZE, to random data derived from system entropy. */ > + > +void > +get_entropy (void *buf, ptrdiff_t bufsize) > +{ > + char *p = buf, *lim = p + bufsize; > + while (p < lim) > + { > + ssize_t gotten = getrandom (p, lim - p, 0); > + if (0 <= gotten) > + p += gotten; > + else if (errno != EINTR) > + report_file_error ("Getting random data", Qnil); > + } > +} If we claim that the random data is suitable for cryptographic purposes, should we be using the GRND_RANDOM flag here? On Linux, flags 0 and GRND_RANDOM are equivalent (I read the most recent kernel code to verify this). 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debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLJR-0003or-6Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:17:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56328) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLJP-0003od-0N for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:17:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58888) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okLJI-0000SZ-Vk; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:17:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=okl3KW7lrxxLP8mcfPp6CE6/nG6q6H/iSYb8kBJ+UM0=; b=jIhwMt1j/3zKudgkq/7Q h5ThAqqf7qxGRnnvVYP2hMiyGJg4W6VRuHLXbX3z3wlrAw08dIBTsRTzQE3mdn3J1NtqwRySlBotT L0bZHGh40yBwQe8YmWXObFeuyME3GwAtBqqIe0luBciKcifQL9WFJvRmsJaNHl117BJzid+pK7RKQ rxzVLsNDQ+wlVyJ7fkPFygUL0+4EdND4lAKwylEjlNXCYcE78gOYRPWWdvTx9/j7FWHYJPbKiJBoM OosN8GglLzwtDGWwNIPWwvfE8mb1BUBY7zyF6roTnSnx4w+Owr1SPVEZ5T1fsJtRaGnwtUGYEjKKP 89CabfkwCKWBdw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1678 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okLJ3-0002xL-3g; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:17:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:16:53 +0300 Message-Id: <83sfjm3lvu.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Paul Eggert In-Reply-To: (message from Paul Eggert on Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:30:49 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: matt@rfc20.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 00:30:49 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert > > I've been looking into this and have several patches along these lines. > None of them address message-unique-id directly yet (I plan to tackle > this soon) but they do address the general problem area. The basic idea > is to use a new make-nonce primitive. > > I thought I'd email the patches now to see what others think about the > direction they're headed. IMNSHO, this thread has long passed the point of being reasonable. There's nothing particularly wrong with the current message-id we use, and as mentioned several times, its exact form and contents are not very important anyway. So I'm objected to any of these wide-sweeping changes for a reason that is so minor it IMO shouldn't have been brought up in the first place. I regret I didn't stop this discussion back then, because it has now snowballed into a monster. But better late than never. > --- a/src/sysdep.c > +++ b/src/sysdep.c > @@ -2163,17 +2163,11 @@ seed_random (void *seed, ptrdiff_t seed_size) > init_random (void) > { > random_seed v; > - bool success = false; > > /* First, try seeding the PRNG from the operating system's entropy > source. This approach is both fast and secure. */ > -#ifdef WINDOWSNT > - /* FIXME: Perhaps getrandom can be used here too? */ > - success = w32_init_random (&v, sizeof v) == 0; > -#else > verify (sizeof v <= 256); > - success = getrandom (&v, sizeof v, 0) == sizeof v; > -#endif > + bool success = getrandom (&v, sizeof v, 0) == sizeof v; > > /* If that didn't work, just use the current time value and PID. > It's at least better than XKCD 221. */ Please never replace w32-specific code with Gnulib without auditing. Gnulib doesn't support old versions of Windows which we still do, and so its replacement break Emacs on those old platforms. > * lisp/calc/calc-comb.el (math-random-table, math-last-RandSeed) > (math-random-ptr1, math-random-ptr2, math-random-shift) > (var-RandSeed, math-random-cache, math-init-random-base) > (math-random-base, math-random-last) > (math-random-three-digit-number): > Now obsolete, as we can assume that ‘random’ is good enough. > (math-random-digits): Simplify by using ‘random’. Why do we need to touch Calc, for crying out loud?! > From 7113ce5ab4a265db7f2870c6614da88d09407604 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:33:05 -0700 > Subject: [PATCH 06/10] New function make-nonce > > * src/alloc.c (clear_nonce, Fmake_nonce): New functions. > * src/fns.c: Do not include . > (extract_data_from_object): Simplify by calling get_entropy. > * src/sysdep.c (get_entropy): New function, taken from > the old extract_data_from_object. I don't want this new function in Emacs, with all the code churn and other strings with which it comes attached. Please leave our random functions alone, they do their job just fine! Bottom line: please don't install any of this, certainly not so close to cutting a release branch, and hopefully not ever. There were much easier and smaller changes proposed for message-id; let's use one of those, or even leave the original message-id intact, as there's nothing particularly wrong with it. We have much more important jobs to do. TIA. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 04:24:14 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 08:24:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47187 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLPq-000419-6G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:24:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54324) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLPo-00040c-Gc for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:24:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43422) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okLPi-0001IO-Og; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:23:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=TKxAfnm7K71XNrFDuCR7gxkyNKJ1u4m5xDtjBsHPUhI=; b=HAajv3lUVJy/ 59YWU4Rbncfgo2EC54Vlnhk+2mefxGbYy3pY6kfU0ZhsDBAMGDJZqhG6D47gqfO6OSo69okN+rLsB SdoJdUHdJu6ftbaY5rf5Q2zE1jFzv4YqX21/izK1CWFUgLRlzdAPVxkIFsxJ4Cg3oL3wBC6d1Br+F Eth4WFzzmRexFvwKanLGKIl5OAf2zpXUAFExNvR2KszqkCmUQvDRKrb3VXfEJcbCMx3UvK0mTp3Ve b3BEK74Wq+FFYBW7KCKUo18FZ9WzWNCna693T8JC4Zra7HkxfYWnJhbzVwdAAeQYRxp/+4jA8WMqQ VL9Au9hukJKtq9vyk5+osQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2109 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okLPi-0003Xc-2D; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:23:58 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:23:47 +0300 Message-Id: <83o7ua3lkc.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:14:03 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: matt@rfc20.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:14:03 +0000 > > Paul Eggert writes: > > > I've been looking into this and have several patches along these lines. > > None of them address message-unique-id directly yet (I plan to tackle > > this soon) but they do address the general problem area. The basic idea > > is to use a new make-nonce primitive. > > Thanks! I have read your patchset, which looks good to me. It doesn't look good to me at all, and I'm against installing any of that stuff, certainly at this time, hopefully never. Please stop pushing this issue, as I will not agree to installing anything that complex. The only changes I'm willing to consider wrt this issue are local changes in message.el that affect only the message-id. Please drop any wider and more general changes, as I will not agree to them. TIA From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 04:29:25 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 08:29:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47193 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLUz-0004A4-KN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:29:25 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53108) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLUx-00049m-8u for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:29:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ty6GzvDBgl8ZkqIW3ujdwOLGInn+i01Kxa2pTkH8K4Y=; b=P6q2kbv46E2cehfyMi1J55om3E xXQDL2g/tvrxqa4ZoU61gAB796oORT7farCk6EtG2Xoz5LRIavfDbSP1hYjH4o9DKbqhtnGccplfZ b4k1QscKRaYvI/+4XYgMd6iOB4voCsL6mvHv4G56VcrQTTXE+Fn693zvo+/tJtp+Mkos=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1okLUi-0006dI-Jm; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 10:29:14 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: <83sfjm3lvu.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:16:53 +0300") References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> <83sfjm3lvu.fsf@gnu.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAABJQTFRF AAAAHBktSURhcWmb4dvs////Uu1f0QAAAAFiS0dEBfhv6ccAAAAHdElNRQfmChEIFzpjQHb4AAAB AElEQVQ4y4WU2RHCMAxEfaQAQlIAEAoIWAUQ5P5rYu0wDKMD9Ice0q5kQQj/Iy6lnI38VFvcVT5V Lo1sEtBtHBcCOYmC/jmBsGmgCa0mQcnTBANKTJC0/B4Z4CGT4xtIkUjokYo2PLUegwGW1uNata1C tc+hQCUMnTVIfbWRFHgb1Wv8CbjbEgPOyNNt0Y84o0mfQj7I9Yjvjg0dvrJHqEb0ilVo5zUz2vMs O8Xad8FVdOqeaL8s4amtgot1PZivX6J68LSLqHyI2G65HIIOqNinhltzQHau1gdJDv0J52qxL/s3 A7DZIMyOeCCvgthxRY6r5IlnpwDAXmIk/v7veQEKpT5gmoxTJAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUA MjAyMi0xMC0xN1QwODoyMzo1NyswMDowMFnrRkcAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjItMTAt MTdUMDg6MjM6NTcrMDA6MDAotv77AAAAOHRFWHRpY2M6Y29weXJpZ2h0AENvcHlyaWdodCAoYykg MTk5OCBIZXdsZXR0LVBhY2thcmQgQ29tcGFueflXeTcAAAAhdEVYdGljYzpkZXNjcmlwdGlvbgBz UkdCIElFQzYxOTY2LTIuMVet2kcAAAAmdEVYdGljYzptYW51ZmFjdHVyZXIASUVDIGh0dHA6Ly93 d3cuaWVjLmNoHH8ATAAAADd0RVh0aWNjOm1vZGVsAElFQyA2MTk2Ni0yLjEgRGVmYXVsdCBSR0Ig Y29sb3VyIHNwYWNlIC0gc1JHQkRTSKkAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Hannah Diamond's _Reflections_: "Make Believe" Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 10:29:07 +0200 Message-ID: <87lepehmzw.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > So I'm objected to any of these wide-sweeping changes for a reason > that is so minor it IMO shouldn't have been brought up in the first > place. I regret I didn't stop this discussion back then, be [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: matt@rfc20.org, Paul Eggert , stefankangas@gmail.com, 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > So I'm objected to any of these wide-sweeping changes for a reason > that is so minor it IMO shouldn't have been brought up in the first > place. I regret I didn't stop this discussion back then, because it > has now snowballed into a monster. But better late than never. I sort of agree with you here, but not totally -- I think a `make-nonce' function would be useful in general, because this is an area that's genuinely difficult to get right, and having a function that does this for you -- correctly -- is good. But, like you, I'm not sure about the proposed changes otherwise. And, like I've said before, there's a reason the Message-ID is on the format it's on now -- it has information that allows users to do work on it (so changing it will break some use cases), and it's short (which makes it efficient in many algos), and it's obviously "good enough" -- it's been this way for decades without any problems. So I'd prefer not to change `message-make-id', but adding a `make-nonce' function would be nice anyway. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 04:35:22 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 08:35:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47203 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLaj-0004M6-Mj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:35:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33442) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okLaV-0004LU-6T for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:35:20 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:47124) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okLaP-0002vi-AC; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:35:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=xiSY039UYWysqkoYoDwN5JijFDXYpEHh63KazuuCqSc=; b=GD7iWxXkins6 yPQOWa4A4xeU2OkM4VpUUQ9bdKWcKta70IB0n8KOuBdI40T5m1/H3ILUkxPkpWYP3Rh16l78Z1DVE 1GqgwwgR3grXqPaUDvP8iyAGbOaRKwLOGnPd4vCWG4jhTVfTcBENaMyXFEzuKirKmM2ozBonqOZbm 6uX0EdNbcEFWsKnf3RDw2EV2JgD6zvUGAe3X0VlE5k0ZVt5tDAKX9mN6EUywqJ3L7fLc7SG2ouXp6 unWP+UoOsppYgiK1XkA0d4NIvk4Jn3jteCM1zVJKzkQU+1/OFfwh/RM3CfxXbRSnzFT1GDi6HHIjb ca8wW1W9Dv2LZakdRgbrAQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2782 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okLaL-0001rl-Jn; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 04:34:59 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:34:44 +0300 Message-Id: <83mt9u3l23.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87lepehmzw.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Mon, 17 Oct 2022 10:29:07 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> <83sfjm3lvu.fsf@gnu.org> <87lepehmzw.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: matt@rfc20.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, stefankangas@gmail.com, 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Cc: Paul Eggert , matt@rfc20.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com, 58472@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 10:29:07 +0200 > > I sort of agree with you here, but not totally -- I think a `make-nonce' > function would be useful in general, because this is an area that's > genuinely difficult to get right, and having a function that does this > for you -- correctly -- is good. > > But, like you, I'm not sure about the proposed changes otherwise. > > And, like I've said before, there's a reason the Message-ID is on the > format it's on now -- it has information that allows users to do work on > it (so changing it will break some use cases), and it's short (which > makes it efficient in many algos), and it's obviously "good enough" -- > it's been this way for decades without any problems. Agreed. > So I'd prefer not to change `message-make-id', but adding a `make-nonce' > function would be nice anyway. If we want a make-nonce function for unrelated reasons, by all means let's discuss that -- but in a separate thread, and with the reasons and use cases spelled out. Doing it as a side effect of what was a wishlist bug report for a minor feature to begin with doesn't sound right to me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 05:30:31 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 09:30:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47345 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okMS7-0008Ak-5C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 05:30:31 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:37604) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okMS4-0008AO-SH for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 05:30:29 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f41.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-12c8312131fso12624217fac.4 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 02:30:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Ql6teqf7GiV7oSe8sARmF3qhFD1s0L/ic3fxapa2JFw=; b=gKXsywzLtbcOdWNDU2QLkycQsXryzfBVM67OWZxjQSv1EigFTTd8QoQKLUxY3Sdn7g 6uvniRijb+bBJMRECZ5AHr58H7kM+XC/gk9mSyVxg75J6tZ3G5ikooSPU0ySZzYNglZs 4ZzDWRLkGsKSB0j2ltXH2UnvaxQzOJpyWZPo8Jnb33W4Dqu3wmxgUlktSxv/DOpa2UF7 Dg6lKS7y31ge2j7/O4KC+sbEQyC0ob1Cmwzpu11VtxDE6kCUPZdKjRmQ+J/6PJ819ABS 71U9L9RH+gGSlg1R1zp0lfd4IZXX3SlEaY2bpruGL1sWhlDqGtZwU1Iz851iivzZlVk1 5n7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Ql6teqf7GiV7oSe8sARmF3qhFD1s0L/ic3fxapa2JFw=; b=TpR1zvkgzQ+zg7XWHxzt04d6mQvtrGidZYqrjCI6GmwbzYO6u6MX6M4TFJfi6C2Hnw p81Btepv3B/2m47PuhWgr86g6o5TaIWZdpCsVoNOMoBBrWO3E8cFYw3SpaBhETtoY9os 4CihLxpx5BXG8kuPEYWMvzkI8/KZUWGj/dFCry8XCDKJ9wT3k5KxP51XCyXFSvkVtACY vBhMycGoJDUaEqB3Mx43g0ZjNZ042cK7itawZbHTusbswc0je+KwW6B3X6sqamBDP0SR YNOVjt9v1Z9/sZgT4xiaM4pLU3MNBLUyZFUBJ29rI79u9ndSgbPE6sMy2wLRX9g7mB2u aGYA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3mJKuiNnzCihB6HFttYXXhA6567RcL5Aj42q+1l9JdImeJTIsE oKk1X0oWd+Cx29DE20qh9OKhacGvhy87COMHhkU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5e3cxYHZ+UsVAX5oqS1gvohYDKP+FXVI40aHBipTrm7tyfSO6OSsDysSQBXe9AyzKrSJS+xgQqBAOIQIy4CL8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr14901995oae.199.1665999023137; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 02:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 09:30:22 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87lepehmzw.fsf@gnus.org> References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> <83sfjm3lvu.fsf@gnu.org> <87lepehmzw.fsf@gnus.org> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221017:58472@debbugs.gnu.org::UnH+cwzIxSwM+/mI:6JpQ MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 09:30:22 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: matt@rfc20.org, Paul Eggert , 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > And, like I've said before, there's a reason the Message-ID is on the > format it's on now -- it has information that allows users to do work on > it (so changing it will break some use cases), and it's short (which > makes it efficient in many algos), and it's obviously "good enough" -- > it's been this way for decades without any problems. It still has the privacy issues I've indicated. Leaking the euid for no good reason leaves you vulnerable to fingerprinting (or even attack, in the worst case scenario). I also don't think the kind of processing you propose on the Message-ID is useful, as most people end up with euid 1000 these days. You have other headers that are more suitable for that. > So I'd prefer not to change `message-make-id', If my most recent patch is not acceptable, could you agree with any of the earlier ones? We can make it as short as you want to, or even keep it at 10 characters. The important part is to not include the euid. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 07:22:29 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 11:22:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47509 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okOCT-0002xb-4d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:22:29 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54796) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okOCR-0002xP-Eg for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:22:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=d2y/whCQvAqMwiSi7cDokdG1NHyU0I8eMTt8g8G3eBw=; b=rAhIlPJ+pbyQZ9K0SgW9ZmocN4 4DKahaGkPgN+F5W6XIliwkjbL4tBRu0LLinitl8681zV5bD1fzhTSEnOUhO+U++KFcPM5f2qqkZo8 dskNRGiHaCnfRTEO96jLG+eVuvzV3QULgzFXlzIu00L2lR93ZZQMUtAeR8hq0Za7BCvw=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1okOCH-0007oF-Hi; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 13:22:19 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Mon, 17 Oct 2022 09:30:22 +0000") References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> <83sfjm3lvu.fsf@gnu.org> <87lepehmzw.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAIVBMVEXQ7fzb7vyr0MGG vF9noUlckzpIcjFMUTM/SDA1WCf////YdfGiAAAAAWJLR0QKaND0VgAAAAd0SU1FB+YKEQsUGJ9L 2oYAAAGASURBVDjLlZHhcYMwDIXFBmGFdIOSDWJyHQCbCVDCAAleoMEsAPW2lWQMJi137fvBHfr0 noQA2CrLs1wEvyj7F8jyw2EH5D9nZId81d9AvgNgB2wMKTjsAdgFmzA4vhXH4r1gnVQRdCSBmqXV RucIyhegZqARMUGnBZSGSBXrPIeA1roSTwRnAaUOQIVnNBTAdUkvk8mncwGIhkipxLm6FIFGXgmo xR1AeOHu1ASo19IlyQrDAzPdfUlSUEmKpg1s3X9ybBVPIoZ66Gr7vCfDw56qd1PtnJNV2FIGUGnU tiPw4GNqrkH4FZemslR3TwEskFBju57Kg+vleyMoKb135PDYpQ7alWOs8yNeo6ERgPaLgzzq69xv ELijc5Pjfmo38yEMYIN4GyYrBmzmJES67vVxG5z17CCZ+cGgd8PURRBFgAb7iZK2BEZsPakngC9A xI4NAR/ByGBNA7pDSwXHhjYFVGj92LrRE38BtM+HE+7n1WifAPzg/KJRGiCpbPQNJEFHZWYdcbIA AAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjItMTAtMTdUMTE6MjA6MjQrMDA6MDCTawVeAAAAJXRFWHRk YXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIyLTEwLTE3VDExOjIwOjI0KzAwOjAw4ja94gAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Squid's _Bright Green Field_: "G.S.K." Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 13:22:17 +0200 Message-ID: <87mt9uelue.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > It still has the privacy issues I've indicated. Leaking the euid for no > good reason leaves you vulnerable to fingerprinting (or even attack, in > the worst case scenario). Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: matt@rfc20.org, Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > It still has the privacy issues I've indicated. Leaking the euid for no > good reason leaves you vulnerable to fingerprinting (or even attack, in > the worst case scenario). I don't think the privacy issues here are compelling. And it's not for "no good reason", as previously explained: > I also don't think the kind of processing you propose on the Message-ID > is useful, as most people end up with euid 1000 these days. You have > other headers that are more suitable for that. No, matching on References/In-reply-to is the only way to get at that functionality. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 11:41:04 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 15:41:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49680 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okSEh-00048P-M9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:41:04 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f46.google.com ([209.85.160.46]:38700) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okSEf-00047O-20 for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:41:01 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f46.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1322d768ba7so13688427fac.5 for <58472@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:41:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BlDRmu7OnpE6W7XY8YjLVDsHnLCubVBUr9KxAHeh2qE=; b=ByQJx+MAqDwLqkjC+Smznd7lpR1i17yfag5QzQrrVgLZtYsbk7vSxt0mPBwAUJUcPn BcoNHc4XqTI5aP4j5xKM9Zhhw+bTAPYj2un26+k5zgiP4VJM2yO2fn6cUTjG+j8yOcv5 Y1VEP5dslAu90RcXNoSYnzhqC2raDnGuva/7DVHYi3ES/rYgIVKNdChCK0r1wEocJpKl DgvTY+ZIYxrck/5lWc9j7nY9tjbWtZEctnll7JZjjdstBNxfiZLkboOjX7C0OkPB5BpX 4/05w3NOKmrfCce0E50EE+nEx135QSkCTuUsHKYpi9dj37XTHdua67Z85HdwmuFmoX8j oKzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BlDRmu7OnpE6W7XY8YjLVDsHnLCubVBUr9KxAHeh2qE=; b=kyF3Vp2dJgYfHjI+3mYalgLHzHXhMdwm8Gyf1YsWTG1jU2Y8AqnofwhXx2i7PX+T5F wdgpVhDuLknAmx0n4N1EtquYPZj1U/VD8V+lyPupxtQIY3MZdp93IseWx5m83QhjGqw2 g42OY5l0KZZnnAfnNbBxDjGLg+emoeveUIfgFDux2ClyV2b+iUSud6/cC5e4TFv57oxv EEkzgBQYGRvmsEQ+C7IikBOx0v+TgnCwAGBT52NHEFvWVi0aIeAIbQOw1kuEiVb24EAf cuqftC+2/YOkhFCSKy0rN9ej9AzXwpz+5gcW4ClN7p7IJ7iENq3G8hnVPmroLgqPmgQ+ opnA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3uaF5DnN7PLOSXOLKzUZUPyVmHluTPhDzAWFQ+mdcvPouz3Ath kBhfD+apj7RsTIC2oJuKO0nmd8j5okLpn/92Iis= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7+aUjj1kWbsDnxjPbaVnfxUoqYLsQaC59Am/MUYBj70HHPHbNDPTz46Jc4yS9dIPp9my40ocXI7zXg8iEhcnU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr15730930oae.199.1666021255588; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 15:40:55 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87mt9uelue.fsf@gnus.org> References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> <83sfjm3lvu.fsf@gnu.org> <87lepehmzw.fsf@gnus.org> <87mt9uelue.fsf@gnus.org> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221017:58472@debbugs.gnu.org::d97G7FRxldLwQk17:9FjR MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 15:40:55 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: matt@rfc20.org, Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Stefan Kangas writes: > >> It still has the privacy issues I've indicated. Leaking the euid for no >> good reason leaves you vulnerable to fingerprinting (or even attack, in >> the worst case scenario). > > I don't think the privacy issues here are compelling. Do you find it problematic that it's very easy for us to have collisions? We will have a 1 in 625 chance for a _partial_ Message-ID collision every time two users: 1. send an email the same second, and 2. have the same euid (e.g. 1000 on Ubuntu, or 501 or whatever it is on macOS, etc.). Just try this: (let ((tim (time-convert nil 'integer)) (i 0) ids) (while t (cl-incf i) (cl-flet ((time-convert (lambda (_ _) tim))) (let ((id (message-unique-id))) (if (member id ids) (error "oops after %d tries" i) (push id ids)))))) We will have a _full_ Message-ID collision if they also: 3. have the same host (e.g. it's misconfigured [a not insignificant number of desktops, mind you, so it says "tickle-me" or whatever non-hilarious thing we use now], or they are on the same big domain like eecs.mit.edu). Is that really "good enough"? We could do drastically better here, with very small means, so I'm not sure why we wouldn't. > No, matching on References/In-reply-to is the only way to get at that > functionality. I still don't know which functionality that is. Getting an In-reply-to for your highly unique euid 1000? What's wrong with just checking if your email address is in To/Cc? If this use-case is important, wouldn't it be much better to use a defcustom that you could at least set yourself to something somewhat unique to you? We could just set it to 1000 or whatever by default (so we're not worse off than today, but also not leaking information by default), and then users could set that to whatever they like (even to their euid). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 14:41:11 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 18:41:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49962 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okV31-0004v1-5v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:41:11 -0400 Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.194]:55469) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okV2w-0004uI-RN for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:41:10 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EDC4140007; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:40:56 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1666032060; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3QRu1wWeOtKcoG3dR+Q3nbH8t3gJ/lMqneam4Ba3WtU=; b=AO2FyFbGB3Kv7nze7nbt0ng5gGOBXvx2SEUUty6Ly0HZBCeeHP1QF5WoKQrVrdgj8rq5Oi +U4mGH4mZ3tyuvIWB+emfW3b/OtJjYws+KlmCvjgtXtbOf205zG55goiBaAyDSJaTFzDbF JnZZ2g2E+lWWAOv3+8fwy3F8HdMRWCL0xSjER9wvf3UDjXCGHM1CkqrZD1hR50i7SvBp8h PQqmLDiIZqKZCMORigL62Z1iUx8hPkFWOo6g8rJiEs1hTxYZn682+dg7Vr7a1KXmPe3I61 UEoJV67o1dqZmhDg/NfcmSCEgxwpOb8WPb/GjoKQ2elpdmMWRzpm+rCsrAYSew== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1okV2k-001ALg-0Z; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:40:54 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong To: Paul Eggert , Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:40:54 -0700 Message-ID: <87ilki70p5.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Paul Eggert writes: > I've been looking into this and have several patches along these lines. > None of them address message-unique-id directly yet (I plan to tackle > this soon) but they do address the general problem area. The basic idea > is to use a new make-nonce primitive. I like it. > --- > doc/lispref/numbers.texi | 18 +++++++++++++----- > 1 file changed, 13 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-) > > diff --git a/doc/lispref/numbers.texi b/doc/lispref/numbers.texi > index fdcda328d8..c1a1349d1a 100644 > --- a/doc/lispref/numbers.texi > +++ b/doc/lispref/numbers.texi > > -If @var{limit} is a string, it means to choose a new seed based on the > -string's contents. > +If you need a random nonce for cryptographic purposes, @code{(random > +t)} is typically not the best approach, as it can adversely affect other > +parts of your program that benefit from reproducible results, and it can > +leave information about the nonce scattered about Emacs's internal state. Mention the new `make-nonce'? With respect to "cryptographic purposes" how about mentioning that `random' itself is potentially seeded from a cryptographically weak source and makes no promise to use a PRNG suitable for cryptography? If I'm right about those two assertions, I think they are important to mention. > diff --git a/doc/lispref/strings.texi b/doc/lispref/strings.texi > index cf961e9e7c..0f3e0ae213 100644 > --- a/doc/lispref/strings.texi > +++ b/doc/lispref/strings.texi > @@ -455,6 +455,18 @@ Creating Strings > Remove the final newline, if any, from @var{string}. > @end defun > > +@defun make-nonce length &optional function > +Return a newly created random string of length @var{length}. > +The string is unibyte, with bytes taken from system entropy, > +and with each string value equally likely. > + > +If @var{function} is given, call it with the newly created string as > +an argument and return the value that @var{function} returns. > +When the function exits, overwrite the string's random contents with > +unspecified bytes, to lessen information leakage in insecure code. > +The string's contents are therefore valid only during the function call. > +@end defun First question I'll have as a reader: what happens if the system has low entropy? Does this block? Signal an error? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 14:47:44 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2022 18:47:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49972 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okV9M-00055Q-2V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:47:44 -0400 Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.196]:44879) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okV9K-000556-GQ for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:47:43 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2FE27E0002; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:47:32 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1666032456; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=cJ0GINBgquaJ44ySbuKX2bhqiqqCLIPfDFWu6TpHpkQ=; b=ZxuWCFzXorClg8mlvbbcFGLQF/XvavKm5GYW8C0zobAIjnWKjrbLG+XqfbT5cl850y1Bdk Ka1C39PrviP3gXy8az8y/z8R8/xMUJ4lq/XfiVK/4LBuidwQjWl69dP6kDF6X58eyDeAs3 j8CFn8vZQvJjCrRTE2IXsEXGdsj6xTNxreXx54xlaeaFim8jOL+LKeWyFoiLkI71FdN2sh 16t7252L7LusbUPjYvyQJSci/4xLBqd8YYkA+L7n2IK1N8x7E0CnsQa4HsZBi/PuUBdxPg TT7nkXLRZxDuhOtgvTDj2X4irvUDLLTPQ10WjxWAI74+I+6KQZWrbM1c84HbhA== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1okV98-001AQe-1F; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:47:30 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong To: Stefan Kangas , Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions In-Reply-To: References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:47:30 -0700 Message-ID: <87fsfm70e5.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > On Linux, flags 0 and GRND_RANDOM are equivalent (I read the most > recent kernel code to verify this). But I have no idea about other > platforms. That is interesting, since they are documented quite differently with no hint that they are the same: https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ -> https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/getrandom.2.html But, yet: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/531cfcd62151916cc7fbade2ecd0311fbafc02a9.1567126741.git.luto@kernel.org/ ...would not be the first time a developer changed code without updating the documentation. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 17 21:39:01 2022 Received: (at 58472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Oct 2022 01:39:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50587 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okbZM-0003jH-V7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 21:39:01 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:43462) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1okbZJ-0003il-93 for 58472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 21:38:58 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2602D16006F; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id xqG1nIjPQKbA; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F1D160070; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:38:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 zimbra.cs.ucla.edu 04F1D160070 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=78364E5A-2AF3-11ED-87FA-8298ECA2D365; t=1666057129; bh=jrN5R+WYasKvFYtlvVxyzxbnGwbpQzaGRUwL2bHjZG4=; h=Content-Type:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:From; b=HNsw2XUsCeVIQXarPsmMWTJ3+vYX1PXLzQXUX7HJoynllmXtALh1gx36KqgdZstZq lXsGwe9KLCWFv11aXM9Vc9A54vkEoPpEMfcJ/4+5KUumNkeqkUJI5umn/3hSZam1V6 wlixqce+3mRl8Dj5+53yg+vfF7uqUF2wxftYHL2I= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id lqnBd8OPxx09; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.179.64.200] (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D8B4E16006F; Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7kVelmjAtb0vbPBNPj5KK7kT" Message-ID: <8fba11c5-c4b7-65ef-9b00-51799203d324@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:38:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.3.1 Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions Content-Language: en-US To: Matt Armstrong References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> <87ilki70p5.fsf@rfc20.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: <87ilki70p5.fsf@rfc20.org> X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7kVelmjAtb0vbPBNPj5KK7kT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/17/22 11:40, Matt Armstrong wrote: > I like it. Eli doesn't, so I'll drop the idea for now. I didn't realize we were close to releasing 29.1, and I agree with Eli that adding a make-nonce primitive is not something to do close to a release. > With respect to "cryptographic purposes" how about mentioning that > `random' itself is potentially seeded from a cryptographically weak > source and makes no promise to use a PRNG suitable for cryptography? If > I'm right about those two assertions, I think they are important to > mention. Good point. This can be done in the documentation now: this doesn't hurt anything release-relevant, as it's simply documenting what we have. 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Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3634 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oknDt-0002NY-Fh; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:06:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:05:28 +0300 Message-Id: <83bkq91b2v.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Paul Eggert In-Reply-To: <8fba11c5-c4b7-65ef-9b00-51799203d324@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:38:48 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> <87ilki70p5.fsf@rfc20.org> <8fba11c5-c4b7-65ef-9b00-51799203d324@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472 Cc: matt@rfc20.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, 58472@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 58472@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 18:38:48 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert > > > I like it. > > Eli doesn't, so I'll drop the idea for now. I didn't realize we were > close to releasing 29.1, and I agree with Eli that adding a make-nonce > primitive is not something to do close to a release. I actually don't mind adding a new primitive, and Lars says it could be useful. A new primitive cannot do any harm; all I'm asking is not to start using it right away in places where we have solid code that worked for years. And the particular feature for which make-nonce was intended in this case definitely doesn't need it. However, I would like to have at least a short discussion of the potential needs for make-nonce, and to have it in a separate thread, so that we could be all on the same page about its need, use, and semantics. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 24 20:26:39 2022 Received: (at 58472-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2022 01:26:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60896 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oyNUF-0000YA-HW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Nov 2022 20:26:39 -0500 Received: from mail-ot1-f54.google.com ([209.85.210.54]:41875) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oyNUC-0000Xk-Ot for 58472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Nov 2022 20:26:36 -0500 Received: by mail-ot1-f54.google.com with SMTP id p27-20020a056830319b00b0066d7a348e20so1822508ots.8 for <58472-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 24 Nov 2022 17:26:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=eFVQHPGN92eedRAgxtwJrnXCE9KY4Sddh6/8sE5gV0Q=; b=CQrG3L+j/ZlICLepI0mMr0iEMUKQo4tQo/3m03qSwGo9lFKbgr/O33kIY2mvHJkvsV SE1kkjZXFgUHfXDkza8BLLGyKW1Yguz8P/qeGuQy532ogve40XDsoXiYuayHIacDbzNo hQz6qMEyZwlFUpdlWftCfibrdyUTXGtcOHiKMda2X8VKNp2ACaS7vSzbN7hwMAU7aYUw +C4GWT0CDimcHP/0otxRdHokxDa1zyyDd0/DtBGdOYOpXudF58Up6QGo8evU/OT3kP7y +86phui+D1TLjvIsqOuVnz0saX01gKiI5lDLNf84p8imKuGqD60Wk31v+IozISXMju5H qDSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=eFVQHPGN92eedRAgxtwJrnXCE9KY4Sddh6/8sE5gV0Q=; b=kSDiUB9VYSU7aCu6WyQKxP/Xra5Gs6V1WKXapjWijxDwyoF/5L4j//3FqoYsza/yb4 zWiZMLkWUT/pO4W5UpK4iC4xU/GskCToG5y3Jz9EGrD6yqrR+Y6FV2vjSPwmGS8Ul5Pj +xosDrWNC/gU3uP01UkjG0wGccOj3SgC1H0CevTupcoSrqOiOQffA2WvFXn2tXdzaixg 1s3jp2B31FSeFC66tqTpLMcqru2Nr3adRNrRMt2FyhTKkShXECqTr79H6srkA58R7a8X KL+z2jcif2b7y6NsG/NJed6mrzZef9xukXSvUmwOGvjsp3BQD3HBPJSjQyBxTD2sjQV+ /hyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pnfA1dZlhLx421HfUcXCFHsTy2eR4Dh3QZguy5PgMe8eeqbT5IA w7o9FThz+UCSGuCNgd/SzMXfU4kRkyozdIYaWN8U78pWZ1E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6iGYBv5IAycUYL9HFlHF1OlgEwz0/+lQW4aCFeeZUhs9fliBaSasuMndpPInw9HkTplke8CjggbmqinBW2Wt0= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:70cc:0:b0:66c:5232:b9d1 with SMTP id w12-20020a9d70cc000000b0066c5232b9d1mr7855771otj.224.1669339591448; Thu, 24 Nov 2022 17:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 24 Nov 2022 17:26:31 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Mon, 17 Oct 2022 15:40:55 +0000") References: <871qr794o2.fsf@rfc20.org> <83sfjm3lvu.fsf@gnu.org> <87lepehmzw.fsf@gnus.org> <87mt9uelue.fsf@gnus.org> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221125:58472-done@debbugs.gnu.org::t5zMkrwJd5lKhdHX:88u MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 17:26:31 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58472: [PATCH] Make `message-unique-id' less prone to collisions To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58472-done Cc: matt@rfc20.org, Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , 58472-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) I'm guessing that none of this is happening, so I'm closing this bug report. From unknown Sat Jun 14 03:56:51 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 12:24:21 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator