From unknown Tue Aug 19 07:28:43 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#58459 <58459@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#58459 <58459@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Reply-To: bug#58459 <58459@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2025 14:28:43 +0000 retitle 58459 Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation reassign 58459 emacs submitter 58459 uzibalqa severity 58459 normal tag 58459 notabug thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 11 20:10:04 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 00:10:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55129 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiPK0-0001QC-Im for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:10:04 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:51440) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiPJz-0001Q5-7H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:10:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40596) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiPJz-0006Qx-1r for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:10:03 -0400 Received: from mail-4318.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.18]:42095) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiPJv-0004vi-6c for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 20:10:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 00:09:48 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665533396; x=1665792596; bh=hSH9yVHFMOJ+yirbhp0wH+cAi2MiJ+oYReiYSinqH8w=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=cWdl1XxTyzdSulUhdN1cUXOPfIDAm+bhmftkxrTCmym3AMlftjIkHdrs/P56EaPFP jcnv+JN9gK0Kv4E6v/nRmXdhh7wrk6geKSk8F0fhdtlXeaT8RMmgA4v3Zbtgg1PhN+ eaOKCsV0PZyO1y9ms7YF+sSM4jMetVMOi0+mao6zuGR2GHJPGOo6/D77zbA3gYuDuM TGPsNAbwg76h2wouZH0m9I2RlX/+BDgxWu6hiBLLfavn/1Xejd52LMQGxma0nKC6wC Egh33alZbJdSx4dA/hG2B8L3+J0kpnt75tuHqxsmloXgfhWwkxwTARBBCGYENDfoD1 abMBisVZVZaGA== To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" From: uzibalqa Subject: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.18; envelope-from=uzibalqa@proton.me; helo=mail-4318.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) I am finding it extremely difficult to get a fresh emacs configuration. Ev= en after removing my "~/.emacs" file and even with "emacs -q" which should not load any init = file, I get a black background when I do "emacs -q". With customize-themes not showing that an= y theme is selected.=20 Even the command=20 emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash gives me a black background. But "emacs -Q" gives me a white background. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 05:51:32 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 09:51:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55747 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiYOi-0003wu-6m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 05:51:32 -0400 Received: from mail-oi1-f170.google.com ([209.85.167.170]:36492) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiYOg-0003wb-4m for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 05:51:30 -0400 Received: by mail-oi1-f170.google.com with SMTP id y72so11875644oia.3 for <58459@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 02:51:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=TE0Fw7gSlieAJI478ySaCMt92RXla+nxWBYVrOoKLwM=; b=K9ctsSDvJ+hScrvQ0dr8fBLu63/7mjznBf6Bk34042a8qssriaCXP1pQZ36zZcZZZn gI0yz01YY3pqxWrW0XtTUinqXL1tG0hCehs5whISOeKJ2UFvIb85lfinW6VhdSoxJ7EQ sQkNDmHgWe93EW5m6pm6Cs6EYEULN9L8gf2eMjhiM6wYEFAcSPHT8kA29XTOyKpBD0O9 ZBUTFUYgtZuRytO6IC9P3bZfbrzJBDICVhGKAZ4oCHdsazQoiw8MlSvnFv3NmPzLfVfp 4iaRFFYstU9bcV0+Q+7D7mBJT2b+onTwoDqpWBFonlQ4CFve3qkOwPsyMvI62SklbAYU XMXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=TE0Fw7gSlieAJI478ySaCMt92RXla+nxWBYVrOoKLwM=; b=4DNT5Wzj5DCgCL1wPH2tK2neoXcatMfNAwyP7NPcRqL8matM+/3+tfjIeDSNzEC7kz L/NFhxH0AQRmuPN7BT8eAmt9a1VDRLXgdmQNYQ4esNDGIogHgKXlvWf46AtQCbsKQTHi Z8gfMw3gRObCVxI8MwY1RfhjFqiSz0kxqOEC5H2aLLLuCDRugaHlPJxOIPaHecdwzwTn 3Shnz9OczB1q8RoS5D1mwoTK3d0I7NmgStMqM6ZMthMhU7GoWMaiUF9Bxpt3/DRWswld ad0xilLh+9tj7X4BtaYrdGRMVrjN/0twYDcITdWQr+Vt0ufOPjJM0UF9iIXNQX4LEiC4 R4Vg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1aEctWhPm7XvxpfGFDmtPECJ7vK3DUQtpmS8/avOuawhoKsJfr 9sqMCRE7QIujDMv2SVFpLQonXMt+2pAuu5kvbDw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6dZEP2B6hioOoL9NRiht6J+daeJyQU7SncJPjnekOsEWDJceseQrQe/IVs/4b1ICqfKiwsRKcX0Dojs/3UDT4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1186:b0:353:b77a:a481 with SMTP id j6-20020a056808118600b00353b77aa481mr1682078oil.199.1665568284570; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 02:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 02:51:24 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: X-Hashcash: 1:20:221012:58459@debbugs.gnu.org::R4uUhbEfv8oTUSzR:0KJX MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 02:51:24 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation To: uzibalqa , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 58459 notabug close 58459 thanks uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" writes: > I am finding it extremely difficult to get a fresh emacs configuration. Even after removing > my "~/.emacs" file and even with "emacs -q" which should not load any init file, I get a black > background when I do "emacs -q". With customize-themes not showing that any theme is selected. > > Even the command > > emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash > > gives me a black background. > > But "emacs -Q" gives me a white background. So you have some X resources that are causing you trouble. See the documentation for the -Q flag. Try this to see: xrdb -query -all|grep -i emacs And then unset those resources. This is a support question and not a bug, so I'm closing this. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 08:52:47 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 12:52:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56046 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oibE7-0005j6-Fs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 08:52:47 -0400 Received: from mail-40135.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.135]:63127) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oibE4-0005it-MI for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 08:52:45 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:52:32 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665579157; x=1665838357; bh=c8Eyh4THOHUnLu7aGHyvQGrcrwWDvk2r8Ge8OfpAPtU=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=GDK+08pfUYsL23LHLDkGDM2B0jNuv1D4pzUH9EJ7elEUd89mHmHgQp8MklceG1iyV OZ/tLtMx9izhdG4uoKJgATI2J95Jtj4m/w4CI350Ix/O27b2jKhjLzWLGVqVTTd/Qz 6QfKM5uWLjnnVILWMCj2jE0cinjOmdHXFjVfQvku5UzjX1vYjQunT5yVlyHLUL3qEs 8hh8f10ZMeH7Ds3f4OapN+PoP3d9X8W9TKSG6su4bBvzUfyfV6lO4ZiS+p+EnC3+q9 GBWIlQGq8E6WioakP3DZEBs8sEmtno2BXHjGxxnJDgsSiAlsnjY3ftzxhBAv5Q+sYi HRsj7P0Jw+NPw== To: Stefan Kangas From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: 58459@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 9:51 AM, Stefan Kangas wrote: > tags 58459 notabug > close 58459 > thanks >=20 > uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text > editors" bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org writes: >=20 > > I am finding it extremely difficult to get a fresh emacs configuration.= Even after removing > > my "~/.emacs" file and even with "emacs -q" which should not load any i= nit file, I get a black > > background when I do "emacs -q". With customize-themes not showing that= any theme is selected. > >=20 > > Even the command > >=20 > > emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash > >=20 > > gives me a black background. > >=20 > > But "emacs -Q" gives me a white background. >=20 >=20 > So you have some X resources that are causing you trouble. See the > documentation for the -Q flag. >=20 > Try this to see: >=20 > xrdb -query -all|grep -i emacs >=20 > And then unset those resources. >=20 > This is a support question and not a bug, so I'm closing this. Why is emacs not taking care of these EMACS generated X-Resources? You may claim it is not a bug, but what would be the usefelness when user wants a fresh restart but has to go through all this torture to find out what is going on. It is definitely not for the novice to fix this.=20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 08:57:06 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 12:57:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56056 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oibIH-0006BE-DW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 08:57:06 -0400 Received: from mail-4318.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.18]:62125) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oibI0-0006A8-Qr for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 08:57:03 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:56:37 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665579402; x=1665838602; bh=0/B0Q4HK5itJxVGOdNeCuf4/yK7bulrf2cJoMCJTRNo=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=X0DFDe7JxaPvQJ13cZxup0/B9a5zqZ7gYcjC+uhr/kO+NqUIeQThYLkKWiMzZ9OUZ /l3QQG7xQC2gfK2rRgy1WIAwTjgd6W1hm+fjk6zmgRFb11igke5OX7XnQhGWODNJLE STV1ac/QUO8HqZLUmDTMqlPmPV25UHEIo57WsQ0SUaOqgFxhOHpoH5EU9jycENx6cY t6zkEyo7Qz4x43pbEXElzsqRbYVFnUxN8wTYzxsrrWRVb07+LJHUf/ljdtOpzESzRp y0kfYWth4ZrUfqp7WYm1m/h7/bjrbT+U1svl1lliMqVAYH2xm4Bvhv5fVemEGRVMXP gUkT9MQ3ejeiA== To: uzibalqa From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 12:52 PM, uzibalqa via "Bug reports for= GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" w= rote: > ------- Original Message ------- > On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 9:51 AM, Stefan Kangas stefankangas@g= mail.com wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > > tags 58459 notabug > > close 58459 > > thanks > >=20 > > uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text > > editors" bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org writes: > >=20 > > > I am finding it extremely difficult to get a fresh emacs configuratio= n. Even after removing > > > my "~/.emacs" file and even with "emacs -q" which should not load any= init file, I get a black > > > background when I do "emacs -q". With customize-themes not showing th= at any theme is selected. > > >=20 > > > Even the command > > >=20 > > > emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash > > >=20 > > > gives me a black background. > > >=20 > > > But "emacs -Q" gives me a white background. > >=20 > > So you have some X resources that are causing you trouble. See the > > documentation for the -Q flag. > >=20 > > Try this to see: > >=20 > > xrdb -query -all|grep -i emacs > >=20 > > And then unset those resources. > >=20 > > This is a support question and not a bug, so I'm closing this. >=20 >=20 > Why is emacs not taking care of these EMACS generated X-Resources? > You may claim it is not a bug, but what would be the usefelness when > user wants a fresh restart but has to go through all this torture > to find out what is going on. It is definitely not for the novice > to fix this. How can one unset those resources? -------------------------------------- This is the result of xrdb xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs Emacs*Background:=09#000000 Emacs*Dialog*background:=09#000000 Emacs*Dialog*foreground:=09#ffffff Emacs*Foreground:=09#ffffff Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Background:=09#000000 Emacs*XlwScrollBar.Foreground:=09#ffffff Emacs*backgroundToolBarColor:=09#000000 Emacs*bottomToolBarShadowColor:=09#000000 Emacs*menubar*background:=09#000000 Emacs*menubar*foreground:=09#ffffff Emacs*popup*Background:=09#000000 Emacs*popup*Foreground:=09#ffffff Emacs*topToolBarShadowColor:=09#000000 Emacs.default.attributeBackground:=09#000000 Emacs.default.attributeForeground:=09#ffffff Emacs.mode-line.attributeForeground:=09#ffffff Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeBackground:=09#000000 Emacs.scroll-bar.attributeForeground:=09#ffffff Emacs.tool-bar.attributeBackground:=09#000000 Emacs.tool-bar.attributeForeground:=09#ffffff From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 12:23:19 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 16:23:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58323 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oieVr-0002FT-GY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:23:19 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f46.google.com ([209.85.160.46]:33422) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oieVp-0002FF-MI for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 12:23:18 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f46.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-131dda37dddso20080729fac.0 for <58459@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:23:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NxqQPQrmqy+jEnQG/mCUSOz31zSdL3EGJMIqW+lCXXY=; b=CIQGrY4Rk2Fka8B5R9hvCaiVAfPcId9UldEE0aKggb+9hWC1Okfh/7N/lppZz64QwP skWlY9YBiXeRvj3QjlVo1V8QObgKN88RJspAhGn+bV6+UDIPoVQGy2KAaFJXeqFUDwkJ 26ak/8uffOJUuCNAbvsoVYtdwrFlt0oNk1k/XzGJXCUOTRoeDQBplf4iXFGVLIQdhKqN FWdBalFnT8vzavYncSj3hWXF8LzOUxK9/zyb/aBNOUTG6TZuNQkKMmGHHpszoJTEwflM HJovtVAcJZD/GB5SDWeEHdbP6SNk/FlvaR3ans6FGgIEngGXDJHfw2fv1dD1esYKHxod fgqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NxqQPQrmqy+jEnQG/mCUSOz31zSdL3EGJMIqW+lCXXY=; b=T15V4qZ6JiUNx8NVTGG6mXM6Jt6RuKgIuquU2cGt7U2HoioF5MaKE7oiNygbukVBZW JS5WUIFSGXdUebNHRaEs6N0lSizQn2s+B8H432w7L1I/CKCZYA09hhPMiScJX7blW+Q8 S1xZr/GTITm9fzkyEb6BPpI98tNt8hxBr3azyAsyRdZav89ZO3Z8A+QORFxV/WHFx3DL 4YCiu7m49XUerxVatB7Fd4Bi/FRNVBWLmk0iqAKK+EDu7DkuOST1fh7KCZJauPD8Olrf hxhidK+Jz8B07aMCSVpxnV0IA/SxcFA3OVtEucPpUeP2+auiAtXFnI7CfFmv9TNcAupU TeCw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1KGLZ4OxMZY2Zp2J2dcnJ4IBkb8z1cjNXqthwXDMOqP/EzXsie WN9YhLPiM7q/RApp/bw5BkK25LEI1FgH8zPbzWA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM66uQtl3DvyKWttFRtFIOV+5d1I0V5df3X3VRDZPN8S1RzstJY8+ThcjJCbcbZ2orZ1MyOdUotvC28rbtnzsNo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr2976501oae.199.1665591792093; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:23:11 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221012:58459@debbugs.gnu.org::sIKDI/fbxQpJXbfy:46vq MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation To: uzibalqa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: 58459@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: >> Why is emacs not taking care of these EMACS generated X-Resources? I don't think Emacs would set these resources. My guess it's specific to your setup, or your GNU/Linux distribution or something. >> You may claim it is not a bug, but what would be the usefelness when >> user wants a fresh restart but has to go through all this torture >> to find out what is going on. It is definitely not for the novice >> to fix this. It's a general feature on X that we happen to support. It's not a bug. > How can one unset those resources? If you read `man xrdb', you will find: xrdb -remove From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 13:31:15 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 17:31:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58375 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oifZa-0003zA-PL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 13:31:15 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:57383) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oifZX-0003yt-7Y for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 13:31:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 17:30:46 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665595864; x=1665855064; bh=s9BP9opc8nuwoPip+VI3Zm7W2R30B5W4kpP/Bi/qc8M=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=OU3H+IqmFXDOy2CEXJhpPoWnJcD/btR6jv3yVfHGJxNvR+4ov5HeV8w5823fDEODb 5fJ8hMK1yP0HIRWiZtuWfxEMf10r1gNFOOKKYs5lqmhZGBcas9mZ32O13S/cK7R6vY KKcEUPaYf6yKCs98jy+MkLrGBaKNLewNLfm8Rqfar8qnD0zXZmqksBm5m4pQ+zhEJp L692frk9fBW6N/bZNod0030wKkVmnSMwmPpP2l+W09vyT1XBMsNk5L9W9M7Dk/0Cjr h0eDg1QKjiEZQgecNOrdaC0M0mJ5rAp/s6OVnghF5fxxLrhb02BsWeN4LYa77VHxoo kiG9w3vNbZTfA== To: Stefan Kangas From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: 58459@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 4:23 PM, Stefan Kangas wrote: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: >=20 > > > Why is emacs not taking care of these EMACS generated X-Resources? >=20 >=20 > I don't think Emacs would set these resources. My guess it's specific > to your setup, or your GNU/Linux distribution or something. >=20 > > > You may claim it is not a bug, but what would be the usefelness when > > > user wants a fresh restart but has to go through all this torture > > > to find out what is going on. It is definitely not for the novice > > > to fix this. >=20 >=20 > It's a general feature on X that we happen to support. It's not a bug. >=20 > > How can one unset those resources? >=20 >=20 > If you read `man xrdb', you will find: >=20 > xrdb -remove Fine, let me agree it is not a bug. Because emacs supports some general fe= atures on X, and we know that this problem might occur, could emacs also support the cle= arance of EMACS X-Resources. Particularly for those not technically aware, it will s= olve them a=20 whole lot of problems. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 17:12:00 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 21:12:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58549 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oij1E-0007aX-Cs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 17:12:00 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:38229) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oij1C-0007aK-K2 for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 17:11:59 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 21:11:46 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665609112; x=1665868312; bh=BNf1lK7oKLQwcTo9yDjVo745nQ5hZFyTv8AXS7b4FQg=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=gAC3hcLt2io2EIe5qJLZln9Ndcp8M/p8z4Do0USjDgmzyZNO6i2QzoFAryEZ9lqDG BIk0Bq5JbL8CM6AD/gC7PnMMd3tsaMLlNNTiCeuz4dhE1DO0TkmiK+AgzilSwGhNCP ZUCeK8WiDLIWh1y2eiAmaS0rJTqovLpTDTrfYI5TPDuXifRYGBEck1XNbHJY0kRe51 OfVqpOH2VFIGnYkO7PnLQKlUT4fwTGDZf8Qz/P+r796MFBegQovj5PX5nyd5vgv9ah uD95H9czauWSC3PsA6EB4uMBiwNpFpMsQFvh3IL0P4DmZlxyP9mB9Y4u1wDL9aku5p xK9jJfGKwHbNQ== To: uzibalqa From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> In-Reply-To: References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 5:30 PM, uzibalqa via "Bug reports for = GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" wr= ote: > ------- Original Message ------- > On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 4:23 PM, Stefan Kangas stefankangas@g= mail.com wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: > >=20 > > > > Why is emacs not taking care of these EMACS generated X-Resources? > >=20 > > I don't think Emacs would set these resources. My guess it's specific > > to your setup, or your GNU/Linux distribution or something. > >=20 > > > > You may claim it is not a bug, but what would be the usefelness whe= n > > > > user wants a fresh restart but has to go through all this torture > > > > to find out what is going on. It is definitely not for the novice > > > > to fix this. > >=20 > > It's a general feature on X that we happen to support. It's not a bug. > >=20 > > > How can one unset those resources? > >=20 > > If you read `man xrdb', you will find: > >=20 > > xrdb -remove >=20 >=20 > Fine, let me agree it is not a bug. Because emacs supports some general f= eatures on X, > and we know that this problem might occur, could emacs also support the c= learance of > EMACS X-Resources. Particularly for those not technically aware, it will = solve them a > whole lot of problems. I an using Trisquel 9. I have not personally added the Emacs X-Resourses. = I do not even have the files "~/.Xresources" or "~/.Xdefaults". "xrdb -remove" gets rid of th= e entire RESOURCE=20 string, ignoring any input or arguments. I am continually amazed how unreactive emacs maintainers can be to users. = Either shaming them, make them look stupid, but then months or years later, it gets recognised t= hey were right all along. =20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 18:47:58 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 22:47:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58598 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oikW5-0003jq-Jt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 18:47:57 -0400 Received: from smtp-2.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.43]:57745) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oikW4-0003jZ-3x for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 18:47:56 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=24568 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-2.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oikW1-0004jm-HZ; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:47:53 +1300 Received: from ip-116-251-140-135.kinect.net.nz ([116.251.140.135]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:47:53 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:47:53 +1300 From: Phil Sainty To: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation In-Reply-To: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> Message-ID: X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2022-10-13 10:11, uzibalqa wrote: > I am continually amazed how unreactive emacs maintainers can be to > users. Either shaming them, make them look stupid Wow? This discussion has been between you and Stefan Kangas, and at no point has Stefan been anything other than polite and informative! > but then months or years later, it gets recognised they were right > all along. This is how X resources have always worked (for decades) -- I can't imagine them changing, and Emacs provides ways for you to inhibit them (or indeed add to them). You said you saw the problem with this: emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash but not with "emacs -Q". The documentation says: ‘-Q’ ‘--quick’ Start Emacs with minimum customizations. This is similar to using ‘-q’, ‘--no-site-file’, ‘--no-site-lisp’, ‘--no-x-resources’, and ‘--no-splash’ together. So the difference that using -Q made was equivalent to adding these: --no-site-lisp --no-x-resources And as discussed, it's specifically this: ‘--no-x-resources’ Do not load X resources. You can also achieve this effect by setting the variable ‘inhibit-x-resources’ to ‘t’ in your initialization file (*note Resources::). So you can use either of those solutions if you don't wish to change the X resources configured on your system. -Phil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 19:16:31 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2022 23:16:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58612 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oikxi-0004QS-NV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:16:31 -0400 Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.25]:48741) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oikxe-0004QD-CB for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 19:16:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 23:16:09 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665616579; x=1665875779; bh=KIBhYPQvFxe+e4R1vAgCmBXXvX+eScGeZMuaM5yoAzA=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=aIbJEmgxa9bicE+zsp47ihk+F34Q7IHkii3P36PPpC/X35fzrF2chMCFmK7m1NOwG H01cmtK57XXe0jLCMuZquGrBPVbrz2zDhNYts5Yx8REoX+BwBBqMoClUmbUEx5t5nT 4UmXreyOp+2cAi/rlLULeTRh2A2PTiBH+qyhgXvTHYci1OgzVaFiAnzqlUUmfd/i37 rkqqLYeFpv1cKUtwR5tbxrQwqsu8LfXNPGcXi/iKqDZfC3uVA/Be/ye7cEUH7FRRpK 6+Xx7o0YQ4CWcw14SeFPiWTf90S62Y6oOIgmvomRjXMSFszOrWjNP3z141P3OfDubx SKezb+aj8ja+Q== To: Phil Sainty From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> In-Reply-To: References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 10:47 PM, Phil Sainty wrote: > On 2022-10-13 10:11, uzibalqa wrote: >=20 > > I am continually amazed how unreactive emacs maintainers can be to > > users. Either shaming them, make them look stupid >=20 >=20 > Wow? This discussion has been between you and Stefan Kangas, and at > no point has Stefan been anything other than polite and informative! Early on in the discussion, the response was immediately "notabug close thanks". But perhaps you are right and I am being excessive. Nevertheless, I am yet to be convinced how this resource thing is straightforward. =20 > > but then months or years later, it gets recognised they were right > > all along. >=20 >=20 > This is how X resources have always worked (for decades) -- I can't > imagine them changing, and Emacs provides ways for you to inhibit > them (or indeed add to them). Looks that "internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource" is doing the wo= rk. So if emacs does not not even find an emacs init file, why does it start la= unching them. =20 > You said you saw the problem with this: >=20 > emacs -q --no-site-file --no-splash >=20 > but not with "emacs -Q". >=20 > The documentation says: >=20 > =E2=80=98-Q=E2=80=99 > =E2=80=98--quick=E2=80=99 > Start Emacs with minimum customizations. This is similar to using > =E2=80=98-q=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98--no-site-file=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98--no-sit= e-lisp=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98--no-x-resources=E2=80=99, and > =E2=80=98--no-splash=E2=80=99 together. >=20 > So the difference that using -Q made was equivalent to adding these: >=20 > --no-site-lisp > --no-x-resources >=20 > And as discussed, it's specifically this: >=20 > =E2=80=98--no-x-resources=E2=80=99 > Do not load X resources. You can also achieve this effect by > setting the variable =E2=80=98inhibit-x-resources=E2=80=99 to =E2=80= =98t=E2=80=99 in your > initialization file (*note Resources::). >=20 > So you can use either of those solutions if you don't wish to change > the X resources configured on your system. >=20 > -Phil Something must be going on, perhaps in the distro or desktop environment th= at could be=20 using something outside the traditional X11 approach to loading Xresources.= Or something else. I am using one of the Official Gnu Distributions (Trisquel 9). These syste= ms should work well together with Gnu Programs. At least, it is always said things are pl= anned to be this way. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 21:14:42 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 01:14:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58637 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oimo6-0007Ho-5H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 21:14:42 -0400 Received: from mail-oa1-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:38731) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oimo4-0007Ha-2H for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 21:14:40 -0400 Received: by mail-oa1-f41.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1322d768ba7so712678fac.5 for <58459@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 18:14:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YACmZrsXrnacw2U4SihYdF2eO769fUAZxaliabMqVJ4=; b=O9FpBBV7RgWyY8KJHeyu65epDVZTH9ZpgZKjEcSjRziunprJYQh8svmhofosamp3BU 2kaATkiV6E492Tuao5ECQudEs33F7UH6OI17zrwESaUDC4Lrw1g4L68TtX5vGYqHCBQm UbEzVrqWLze4f7EvwW1I0vcqzy5i7afniUO1ZTU7kp1B65R+rqOiynRvz4UmxAqO0l4q YOlVKahUh5RCYA0Y1Slv2Cc1a8s0ZGXst+OVIc9jWuSQQsBXz/Mk5lfne0hXC9413PbW auHNI/JS/lfYcyApDrVP2/gZqugu4wUlPSEd+O2nfJNaDASUW1FFoqtLgHJDOPz93t8k 56cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YACmZrsXrnacw2U4SihYdF2eO769fUAZxaliabMqVJ4=; b=RbHE7ttY+UXpq4R5+3y0hEOzGFYWJFcE62GPqW5JEBv5I7hqep8wgYwNayozSnTvO1 d6PUUSh6QqD2dCeMhlQxsAFlOWhIkdu7C6qUhAFR2EjJw5aLLBnYQVMSTmNuj68Lyfb8 zc0jLMmiOi8df/SLz0/xpEMPP2YHKgobCjje1dtG60JKx+gjcpH/Om3WOLLMvbtDSRjA Iyp4//hH2WOSMHV6qvm3jQLSGz9+SdfBfDl8iXOnnVOoHdMY5R5zwJNIkdlylvhSDWKo pWCDjTCqz1lwbtqpB3xuVbfzjux75RB7xZ3RHF1Md2D/h6XsmPDUsWaqyi8mW69JXL9/ 2jvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf02PukeqvQabQMDNLd/8zgujTZE5aez2OChT/1o6IdSl1vGBAhW SE+sIG2VUwauJkeWbpzLxo9q6Beo9uIVY/5fxbA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM62Wi1xK8rffTk3iPGZPoI0TfrESWfslmi0Vrr5k7mvlXD1Zat3zPN0+SymuiofoQdFeSw5Wqg7NU26xKh9TsI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:9126:b0:132:b724:e96c with SMTP id o38-20020a056870912600b00132b724e96cmr4105352oae.199.1665623674413; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 18:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 18:14:33 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221013:psainty@orcon.net.nz::mCU0zpqhj5GVFQxj:2xuP MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 18:14:33 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation To: uzibalqa , Phil Sainty Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: 58459@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: >> > I am continually amazed how unreactive emacs maintainers can be to >> > users. Either shaming them, make them look stupid >> >> Wow? This discussion has been between you and Stefan Kangas, and at >> no point has Stefan been anything other than polite and informative! > > Early on in the discussion, the response was immediately "notabug > close thanks". But perhaps you are right and I am being excessive. > Nevertheless, I am yet to be convinced how this resource thing is > straightforward. Please do not take us closing bugs personally. We have thousands of open bugs, and we try to handle them based on objective criteria. >> > but then months or years later, it gets recognised they were right >> > all along. X resources are of course a rather esoteric feature these days, to most users. There's a reason they're not used all that often any more. But we will never stop supporting them, as this stuff has been that way for decades. > Looks that "internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource" is doing the work. > So if emacs does not not even find an emacs init file, why does it start launching > them. Again, I think Emacs behaves correctly here. It's good to hear that using `inhibit-x-resources' fixes your problem. > Something must be going on, perhaps in the distro or desktop environment that could be > using something outside the traditional X11 approach to loading Xresources. Or something > else. > > I am using one of the Official Gnu Distributions (Trisquel 9). These systems should work > well together with Gnu Programs. At least, it is always said things are planned to be this > way. Then you should investigate why this happens in your environment. If you find any bugs, you should report them to the appropriate people. If you find that it is indeed a bug in Trisquel, then it is not correct to report it here, as we can't do anything about it. But note that it is good form to make sure that there is a bug before reporting one. I would ask in some support forum first. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 22:03:09 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 02:03:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58669 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oinYy-0008W5-Kg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 22:03:08 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:57163) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oinYv-0008VZ-D8 for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 22:03:06 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 02:02:48 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665626579; x=1665885779; bh=aVI1uHidQFrl6NNtJOf4i8uDYzofeYypm++Te1ZKgaQ=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=d1JZDd2I5WrMHwC1EeiawOXe0eGHDH9+EjrlEKl+wHSuAVKhJaO76CUdmEoEUcW0l +AIUttJQ4eYMP6cY31gb3LZFr6Zoukcy2k7UoM3kEjJqiFmRxPhObXwPqcWwVOUeDZ Ox97diVmUZnGkZelRfuMiIkBunv0PY7XLT6A33ijxOCvfPyrnvYxLcU7JJkg121ZmB i//AosqLDTVfEDTc7tAhIG5lmOaOb6B9dJz5LIalFWK339E7FUqDI96CkBs+iNQ5MW Bnbfw9egXOfW+O2i8onkBzgKwkAl8dzYNIZAgHM8qQH5A5i+Hs9RJjOG9Xu3xhNMw+ IQlTkA0SYDyvg== To: Stefan Kangas From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: =?us-ascii?Q?__<1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=3D@proton.me>____<0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC=5FN=5Fc9LG5MADKiD3=5FAjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=3D@proton.me>__<3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN=5FZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk=5FgxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=3D@proton.me>_?= Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 1:14 AM, Stefan Kangas wrote: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: >=20 > > > > I am continually amazed how unreactive emacs maintainers can be to > > > > users. Either shaming them, make them look stupid > > >=20 > > > Wow? This discussion has been between you and Stefan Kangas, and at > > > no point has Stefan been anything other than polite and informative! > >=20 > > Early on in the discussion, the response was immediately "notabug > > close thanks". But perhaps you are right and I am being excessive. > > Nevertheless, I am yet to be convinced how this resource thing is > > straightforward. >=20 >=20 > Please do not take us closing bugs personally. We have thousands of > open bugs, and we try to handle them based on objective criteria. Fine, but when this happens on Trisquel, then it is a topic of concern. Ar= en't maintainers supposed to work together? Most times everybody works independ= ently with almost no concern or collaboration. =20 > > > > but then months or years later, it gets recognised they were right > > > > all along. >=20 >=20 > X resources are of course a rather esoteric feature these days, to most > users. There's a reason they're not used all that often any more. But > we will never stop supporting them, as this stuff has been that way for > decades. >=20 > > Looks that "internal-set-lisp-face-attribute-from-resource" is doing th= e work. > > So if emacs does not not even find an emacs init file, why does it star= t launching > > them. >=20 >=20 > Again, I think Emacs behaves correctly here. It's good to hear that > using `inhibit-x-resources' fixes your problem. I wonder the rational behind considering x-resources as authoritative. As you mentioned, these days x-resources are a rather esoteric feature. Your design should be the other way round. With a flag `enforce-x-resources= '. So one always gets vanilla emacs with no init file, or when the init file does nothing, or something goes wrong. It is very easy to make an init fil= e fail when one is writing emacs functionalities and packages. =20 > > Something must be going on, perhaps in the distro or desktop environmen= t that could be > > using something outside the traditional X11 approach to loading Xresour= ces. Or something > > else. > >=20 > > I am using one of the Official Gnu Distributions (Trisquel 9). These sy= stems should work > > well together with Gnu Programs. At least, it is always said things are= planned to be this > > way. >=20 >=20 > Then you should investigate why this happens in your environment. > If you find any bugs, you should report them to the appropriate people. > If you find that it is indeed a bug in Trisquel, then it is not correct > to report it here, as we can't do anything about it. Will inform Ruben about it. =20 > But note that it is good form to make sure that there is a bug before > reporting one. I would ask in some support forum first. It is also an emacs bug from my point of view. Especially when you confirm= =20 that x-resources are not used all that often anymore.=20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 12 23:01:33 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 03:01:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58737 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oioTU-0003jK-Qn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 23:01:33 -0400 Received: from mail-oo1-f45.google.com ([209.85.161.45]:40906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oioTS-0003j4-N2 for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 23:01:31 -0400 Received: by mail-oo1-f45.google.com with SMTP id r11-20020a4aa2cb000000b004806f49e27eso486970ool.7 for <58459@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 20:01:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Fc9jNtF5Hj0ywdHi73D4YC6hyRXy5M5wCenqbFgQnYQ=; b=bwVKvtq5Fw7t0CzTG7PbfJJSt48m7ejAjyKWq+nhJ2TCq447arwkgDfTAM/+iapEsI QImg/+/uTXRBMeC26eIfFPW8x5TrqjB8tj/LE2iWNFucwPNp8ube8UKypvXfcZ7yS4bi za3Vu84SUWZ/XMbICCJQtJLIUlzjevKeYDYbTDmHYA+7/tqMDYFiG3V5BHDQnix9OZ/U 1kEf10D5DmK9XsGC+d5LCApJ/4uAbDDV+7Vrx2ffuFd95MjlpHxKsGz2kfJJ+FXMX+vE M+WYwSMBlcpovfSKOPKBJ5BJx+UDVDO664zk6jtyc5EKxBz5DqPdvWaXh/5BlEwovXAP lx+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Fc9jNtF5Hj0ywdHi73D4YC6hyRXy5M5wCenqbFgQnYQ=; b=nSRUHjIvstEiEl0fwDn6X04jCtvMeamDZq0e6P99D+8YmyNHFtQq2nAPYJjcXG7wRM KUh2EMTy5evhD7e2HcQd5KG6VjyUYhRR5wK27qkShX4IHkAh9zDv+wxrsN3Usv/bFsdB QFw7iOe8/8yqFpMxe4lvTNNXF9I6SWhC4M08q6lpKV7qfNPOqj4eJyRCHdNSJprE53fQ ivZYQrT/wX+25V+fsZEqD6X9tI6pHjCd93DFapSVT9Xj+KaxZXvpxIAGWWKCbqarHL8v OavmTMPAzmma8mTkAmi7ZlomjdPdg7Km1nw1uROTrFOetj8eKgnrcgFLKfJw2fadmDnl /odg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf23v2Rqvxz1Y3Sx5cyJ3cqAvZARV3V8XyttHquqW+gq+u5IMzfH zRE2zhlu54N4aFqrmtVJY11/7516Xf25aJ94arI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6s0jbpTymajLDtXHcmC87a+ApRi5oq5f1rXlmKYYBUJKfCBRQeHKVvhrs9mPOq67hqzAkPqpKB1EIukH9Brec= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:3c1:b0:637:28be:7920 with SMTP id p1-20020a05683003c100b0063728be7920mr13785844otc.105.1665630085106; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 20:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 20:01:24 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> X-Hashcash: 1:20:221013:psainty@orcon.net.nz::H2B090WIc9sHPapB:3gV2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 20:01:24 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation To: uzibalqa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: > Fine, but when this happens on Trisquel, then it is a topic of concern. Aren't > maintainers supposed to work together? Most times everybody works independently > with almost no concern or collaboration. That's an unfair assessment. This is not a bug in Emacs, so there is no need for us to collaborate with anyone. Bugs should obviously be reported to the people that can fix them, that's all. > It is also an emacs bug from my point of view. Especially when you confirm > that x-resources are not used all that often anymore. I think we will have to agree to disagree, then. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d8ffac17700ec82257981c3cbdedd718; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:22:54 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:22:48 +0800 In-Reply-To: (uzibalqa@proton.me's message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2022 02:02:48 +0000") Message-ID: <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1164 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: > Fine, but when this happens on Trisquel, then it is a topic of concern. Aren't > maintainers supposed to work together? Most times everybody works independently > with almost no concern or collaboration. Users actually want the desktop environment to set resources that make applications match the system stylesheet. If you don't, remove the resources. We cannot make decisions for the Trisquel developers. > I wonder the rational behind considering x-resources as authoritative. > As you mentioned, these days x-resources are a rather esoteric feature. > Your design should be the other way round. With a flag `enforce-x-resources'. > So one always gets vanilla emacs with no init file, or when the init file > does nothing, or something goes wrong. It is very easy to make an init file > fail when one is writing emacs functionalities and packages. Emacs is an X program, and good X programs respect resources set in the usual locations. It is a decades old convention. > It is also an emacs bug from my point of view. Especially when you confirm > that x-resources are not used all that often anymore. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f5fbe909ecf7a5e0a5554519c6946ced; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:30:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <1M2WN8RSJh3rnvRYoGKu2FOYFosKFsYxRLesaZKzA6dmdXLvGsxZNON-D3zRMgv-FkPqF2qFTurWu3u2ruoKK1QSzHheoICPo2MIi7VR6lc=@proton.me> <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:30:41 +0800 In-Reply-To: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> (uzibalqa@proton.me's message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2022 23:16:09 +0000") Message-ID: <874jw8c8xa.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 391 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: > Early on in the discussion, the response was immediately "notabug > close thanks". But perhaps you are right and I am being excessive. "notabug close thanks" is a series of commands for our bug tracking system. > Nevertheless, I am yet to be convinced how this resource thing is > straightforward. Perhaps you have not read the X(7) manual page? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 08:09:22 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 12:09:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59849 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oix1e-0002aq-9z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:09:22 -0400 Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.25]:39173) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oix1a-0002aa-5i for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:09:21 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:09:02 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=b6pimgqq4zhafbmzvqpijajvne.protonmail; t=1665662951; x=1665922151; bh=4qJM4tlUjfj/dQZD7OIzfpSdB06I4kG8lCJF7D1PBUI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=nTcwc0LbqJzuxJsHwUEFdryEq6YvllnHFaGV1etvVztNkYEkAWWr7ePlZpzzTudrg ocNrMxpiyMJ3CUbqUuW/d9Q9tGx5koEWRp/TEwcZ+8lAnEYSI3OZpWKhm91iJ417D0 LmCsxhT3rC+voSbNc+HxR4FG9e0Wu2gtpJ/Yjqu/4SsSqjg4wU9fhl/2G1magU6pBz laQWMcqCYBh4gUKQ1zQCb4kZIrQ5I+QjHEBMJoEcEjZw4pOwvQOHMUfdrvekjtP6vk 4xVDzNbFKwaawoDWpob1zn/2phw8J2fDFOqgzl+eUqsRAkEY9/MxldGD8EyU2aGBmf I44qLirfZ86Sg== To: Po Lu From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 10:22 AM, Po Lu wro= te: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: >=20 > > Fine, but when this happens on Trisquel, then it is a topic of concern.= Aren't > > maintainers supposed to work together? Most times everybody works indep= endently > > with almost no concern or collaboration. >=20 >=20 > Users actually want the desktop environment to set resources that make > applications match the system stylesheet. >=20 > If you don't, remove the resources. We cannot make decisions for the > Trisquel developers. >=20 > > I wonder the rational behind considering x-resources as authoritative. > > As you mentioned, these days x-resources are a rather esoteric feature. > > Your design should be the other way round. With a flag `enforce-x-resou= rces'. > > So one always gets vanilla emacs with no init file, or when the init fi= le > > does nothing, or something goes wrong. It is very easy to make an init = file > > fail when one is writing emacs functionalities and packages. >=20 >=20 > Emacs is an X program, and good X programs respect resources set in the > usual locations. It is a decades old convention. You can't even tell me which process is producing them and where. =20 > > It is also an emacs bug from my point of view. Especially when you conf= irm > > that x-resources are not used all that often anymore. > No. Emacs should take the user's setting in the init file rather than override = them with bullshit that you reckon has authority. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ee3962290a7dcdb8776aea3403ad3211; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:19:48 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 20:19:42 +0800 In-Reply-To: (uzibalqa@proton.me's message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:09:02 +0000") Message-ID: <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 597 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: > You can't even tell me which process is producing them and where. Because I don't know? How would I know what is installed on your system? > Emacs should take the user's setting in the init file rather than override them > with bullshit that you reckon has authority. Did you bother to read the X(7) manual page at all? If not, I suggest grabbing a copy off here: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R7.7/doc/man/man7/X.7.xhtml#heading14 When you run Emacs with _nothing_ in your init file, there will be nothing there to take priority over X resources. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 08:53:04 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 12:53:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59888 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oixhw-0003kR-5y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:53:04 -0400 Received: from mail-40132.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.132]:49591) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oixhr-0003jt-8l for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:53:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:52:43 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665665572; x=1665924772; bh=musGNEwop0jYYmgbDBpxDcX2LNoeOhz92CxG5EkI/MI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=Rqxm1Xed9vG3F4i/f86xVFsZrIuHizaLKPglRI51PE+87m65M4mLJS04dYqdURzhh PmcUsadroH/lh7fhGa+0fWVSrpo4EGDDPAVAc9HO6niS1zhR/0RxhmzN4VVVLb8WqY cx4JYNF6DAZAL80B0zBtoLEQF6HvKTXDMxYcrRZhjQsoBImevhu+PwHhhcn0b4G1z0 b1gXedyk4UcU4AWyydCvt/jdWfjSoyPlpA1i2CDFxCboc1+VYi8tkFV1ZdhCfoIK24 2Bb/rxYDUsulHVJsse5CPufTQOX4eHBFBwojetmke1l5Pkdjeh2Uyt/TkMgO592/th OJZtmqKAB/fyA== To: Po Lu From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 12:19 PM, Po Lu wro= te: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: >=20 > > You can't even tell me which process is producing them and where. >=20 >=20 > Because I don't know? How would I know what is installed on your > system? Right. And I do not know either whatever my system has done to impose some x-resources that emacs is taking as authority. Suppose I had set some of those resources myself and want to use them, then I should specify= =20 them like I do with my init file. =20 But things are working the other way round. Things get messed up, then hav= e to figure out what produced it, thing gets too complicated beyond what I co= nsciously did, then emacs uses them. Does a user have control this way? Of course n= ot. =20 > > Emacs should take the user's setting in the init file rather than overr= ide them > > with bullshit that you reckon has authority. >=20 >=20 > Did you bother to read the X(7) manual page at all? If not, I suggest > grabbing a copy off here: >=20 > https://www.x.org/archive/X11R7.7/doc/man/man7/X.7.xhtml#heading14 >=20 > When you run Emacs with nothing in your init file, there will be > nothing there to take priority over X resources. My challenge in why emacs is taking authority from x-resources. Rather tha= n firing vanilla emacs with some properly defined face with good accessibilit= y. If one is sure that he has set x-resources as he want, one can specify eith= er in the init file or in the command line where that information is. Current= ly something sets the x-resources, nobody knows what (certainly not the user i= n=20 this case), and then emacs imposes whatever there is. It is a bad strategy= . If emacs maintainers are actually so smart, how long is it going to take ex= actly for vanilla emacs to start using some well defined accessibility metrics su= ch as modus-themes, so that the maximum number of users can comfortably use it= . I want you to look at this as a subject, not as an emotional thing. Becaus= e then=20 you will not look at it the right way. Which people have already started d= oing. The end seems to be always the same. Statements that I am this bad man, an= d this=20 other one, and so forth. =20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 09:14:33 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 13:14:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59923 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiy2j-0004IH-Bu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:14:33 -0400 Received: from sonic313-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.31]:36664) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiy2g-0004Hy-BB for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:14:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1665666862; bh=+d1lMCglIpLJeNuV3nhbcTXgMYSesbSSG/w1aB352Jo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=n+wllqoF2yy3OG392l/OoJ7cwgvtKiE/hDdhfjrvwFyraQ30tq3lLWpsJmlhv2CuRKIj+AF1DYuri2oYIkWHulYrmz6MEyFdfQHane6dzunIBSgmvYIhWv0eSbdAZh2o1oqbgJ4tFfuXVpAGoM0O2DhUvijPO+L1QO37kVpXBr4Pv6eYTDY2MnPstEsfM7y64kAd20brxiTbfbhH3WN7Sqh5YiY51Xn0xNUvYqZB6LvDYwH322ftI4/CREPdXbF6ZqklTAG29AhrhmQZsT0OI4Tmp9n7oUJZ2ndjiS2Ae9ljXDAh43ZQioRX9jc0nMXErQaL7FysyXJPwBk4M0ZGLw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1665666862; bh=61RrfAx0N0PXnucPcMScpX57koIMPqZYL/YbovPfrqM=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=UiA1sZmMDiMx7aoUyjRutsLLKWhUqA4ilZZhGyrrsD441cW5p8hyUjvqs5nrUrlewaFEPxW0GE+8s1wiTNS7F8mBEEHm2ZZ58FX/I34OwkOB/tpvDxJT9/BmYjm0g3ClQoaQeexl+EV4vMRYIiIJOPyi1LN2oRYq06ZhcvjZtlIOld4c/gAjOcuAgNB4iE221W5MUr0/30H/MYsXCSCHKMIGDanlnEIWSyQwOUaxpWwq2zFwjckdo4uH5c/mx8om/ynxvw2Ohm01kw8qPzhZ0/BOz9BoXX70DKDGodZGO0BNK47r6LfWAbQlNt9ZBisfa8PSDJg2unc1hxW+0jsqPw== X-YMail-OSG: xGTT9dgVM1nta1LRc5Qincmwlm6cZXkUmOWe74EPn.nvBhzQgjLUHr6ZMR9FOg0 jrXcXg5jEwI9Nuiw8KN0_fUAJd.A3KqLir19RI88wIWbd70EVhs9kAgsroc4Bv4HLOiZBRX7_KG9 OyNWHB0DKpF610G0S2dxNID5x69FdCfSxgWFsCIWEye0t0_jxodrkwkRqiQ63mmudMShpNYR2dFb mn97tKFp08VgCnheBFfVz9k.J_cBzE5SqOtp5xbYRjQGpoJUTNIxz6Kix_ZPd59QvAxCLOyJywJm c0xFrLzz5O4IUoBRDJbFtcuq81gFfoO2eHZLLkLg_iPTvQi2_70ZwNekTOf7tkiLTwpGIRSwulaW I1ao8UnKlV40L6ISmwFCcZele3k9BA6Zo8plUhKTolONNXpGqNSzn6Ja.2QBQr7BzA.iVVWgiS8t sUsYAhK35TBzssn7RpNIjFY8dpea8.283pALvT9y4D.vK9HfoE3yluKqLwhAFvOp7WxYG.qegxXV ZSCBRupcsgxKC.ZPBUqr8TUKC_wyUJMSK9k9LSeH9kC8aPbjfQlTX_xmYqaE74arjWqGBSoy4hIu MgGjr51E7gL79Pye3hd.Kj.wy94SsRCivTVGRuDY9YtPRnpjGn5aEtseARP2WBmAoHyZxUctxhF0 LM3ciRaA3FBGTjG4KKi87VHU82gBf29Wz38gM_SOre0TLAHYfZeOVssk1iWX0duQrX0iKwjssCV6 o1ObMFE0jkFNsMwUhy2wrUtcFtKSGfcg4wSa7FF9suLpbIeVlnkxewFMJblP3li5f1ekBCKicAss ak0.QU53_M3GdstMlDSpHgW5jlr_1hsAONM_3sUVW2RDdZHqNUfC8rC4B2rw4o4uEiTcVHz.i_vh _FJ40UwbCZ6IL92GB23awS_bma3bMRgKuEK1Gn78aMZ4ApXpd3OpgJdVhmdLZcwy_PJmIdfkO4un XemL0iy66Sbg4sPrfJ2Ui7VnlRWW2iqzEajeipvBMkFsv_elojMGjLcmdqHz24DRACFtwsDsTPQy lNc8jbzFHWtdVn7gTlamOFtMN7jJGsmIltuNAKsjO25GBKEQCcV5Rcqu18srJDE9ABlZl5Oi.pTA L3zqCypKFQGRvrfs_5QTy.v6ztV2Dqdd33YCkCAKKTJ4aeU6mHS79LTLPf1gTU_d_IiOF7WXkRQn _Gli.VPrfwB2eh2wCdLcQ.15wnnQK1F0T4sKeL0Kzc07JdkvqgKiaZ7if.F9bLN3eJT2OVG9yOfs Fx_hKlAFfkZ93g74keEdf5ZOAy8a9bypXdKTCF1zuP.UR_CVmrtffBM.BLVzMDXLLRhwySjhNEqk Bwk_e8.8EI2eInZisVovRo43GedpeU_z8_ZRy.uh98nMM2HKIHz8pzN6Gdg9S41Qs5PbdttKhEr. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b742a2a3efafe523c15e5c8546f832c9; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:14:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:14:12 +0800 In-Reply-To: (uzibalqa@proton.me's message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:52:43 +0000") Message-ID: <87o7ufc1cr.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 792 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: > But things are working the other way round. Things get messed up, then have > to figure out what produced it, thing gets too complicated beyond what I consciously > did, then emacs uses them. Does a user have control this way? Of course not. You have control: inhibit-x-resources. > My challenge in why emacs is taking authority from x-resources. Rather than > firing vanilla emacs with some properly defined face with good accessibility. [...] > If emacs maintainers are actually so smart, how long is it going to take exactly > for vanilla emacs to start using some well defined accessibility metrics such > as modus-themes, so that the maximum number of users can comfortably use it. Take the complaint to the Trisquel or MATE developers. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 09:27:29 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 13:27:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59957 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiyFF-0004dS-5e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:27:29 -0400 Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]:60807) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiyFA-0004dA-Dr for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:27:27 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:27:12 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665667636; x=1665926836; bh=2omJtA0G4wIZ68pCklwMwvPFauWzHhNr9M0F37sdtsI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=SmFdSdqnXogviiADbM0ELfQqbir3/LkCae88AiMr8wXYkJKMJklTc1mMBOrznqDpi tVEKX5Ds/3HDMRgADlFyE9MPZTVIqSuPdZRwExU40I2FL1120FTWk11LvRLxaPGFnA LxrATCSM/zVgNc7VggwC9PWsIxJe47hBuBqY27DmAdyG4YM0Xfh7J23TLuBEgFfgNA DxQbzZRkHsnZ34WduF4iS5mWjcjrbPyFwwH7/Wq+cXenSxKMPM5xZ/sUs0/1hnWXOZ sX0QjdsDrIr80kfB9Ei5nezohrtnE3EQGTuzVBhagnRoiN+JaE6qKSxhR7w9P+0DC3 B3Zfa5t+R/mlg== To: Po Lu From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87o7ufc1cr.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7ufc1cr.fsf@yahoo.com> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 1:14 PM, Po Lu wrot= e: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: >=20 > > But things are working the other way round. Things get messed up, then = have > > to figure out what produced it, thing gets too complicated beyond what = I consciously > > did, then emacs uses them. Does a user have control this way? Of course= not. >=20 >=20 > You have control: inhibit-x-resources. Sure, but do you realise how long it took to identify the culprit after the= =20 enforced settings did not even allow me to see the mode-line because of terrible contrast. Make things easy for users, rather than even more diffi= cult. Who understands how Xresources works when a user does not even have a user-= level=20 configuration dotfile in "~/.Xresources".=20 =20 > > My challenge in why emacs is taking authority from x-resources. Rather = than > > firing vanilla emacs with some properly defined face with good accessib= ility. >=20 >=20 > [...] >=20 > > If emacs maintainers are actually so smart, how long is it going to tak= e exactly > > for vanilla emacs to start using some well defined accessibility metric= s such > > as modus-themes, so that the maximum number of users can comfortably us= e it. >=20 >=20 > Take the complaint to the Trisquel or MATE developers. The complaint is about the problems associated from taking instructions fro= m x-resources. The problem is simply shifted around to the Trisquel or MATE developers, ra= ther than continuing to rely on a likely broken x-resource database. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 09:57:21 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 13:57:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34364 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiyi8-0006GQ-PL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:57:21 -0400 Received: from mail-40138.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.138]:46203) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oiyi0-0006Fr-RF for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 09:57:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:56:53 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665669426; x=1665928626; bh=6LmWTF15A38qsZ1EAAX8uBExV/kjRAwvvIyKmJz9cJc=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=FgI7ePrGOqzZ9gwSSGPj2Nwgxi36QUKQ8F6FLUjHtP1PZaiMFa4DMIvSoXsPYTaOO l/Ymhz8QdSTyyfq0/ZRvj6zg8UxQsINdsax7a31XMSj/dCwpU30Rn1/es1MEwl1h/x GJPuqV71g5lWkI6Gfm4RPBaVIZI3HJfLlPNWQTTTSswEzlQgQB0i/gV5Blup17RfyS /yKZcqeD4jtZJAsXx2VE16NH/N0C4/GehR1t44vN7hhUZ0YaDDj7CCXoi9L7emT51B frWZPXK7QND0AX5kE+M0jU9tGmG60ykM8B3rVxV/6+4K5C50ygTSnPlWsjr0uh1M2d 7KDGripq6o07w== To: Po Lu From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87o7ufc1cr.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7ufc1cr.fsf@yahoo.com> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 1:14 PM, Po Lu wrot= e: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: >=20 > > But things are working the other way round. Things get messed up, then = have > > to figure out what produced it, thing gets too complicated beyond what = I consciously > > did, then emacs uses them. Does a user have control this way? Of course= not. >=20 >=20 > You have control: inhibit-x-resources. The sensible way is to have the user exactly specify the file he wants for = setting the resource parameters. This would avoid picking up settings that only th= e gods=20 know where they are, and what had set them up in the first place.=20 What could happen if the actual x-resource settings are removed from the sy= stem? Would it be detrimental to users in unknown ways? =20 > > My challenge in why emacs is taking authority from x-resources. Rather = than > > firing vanilla emacs with some properly defined face with good accessib= ility. >=20 >=20 > [...] >=20 > > If emacs maintainers are actually so smart, how long is it going to tak= e exactly > > for vanilla emacs to start using some well defined accessibility metric= s such > > as modus-themes, so that the maximum number of users can comfortably us= e it. >=20 >=20 > Take the complaint to the Trisquel or MATE developers. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ccda951e3c936dec14c2e97229bfaf89; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:15:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7ufc1cr.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:15:34 +0800 In-Reply-To: (uzibalqa@proton.me's message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:56:53 +0000") Message-ID: <87fsfrbyih.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 544 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: > The sensible way is to have the user exactly specify the file he wants for setting > the resource parameters. This would avoid picking up settings that only the gods > know where they are, and what had set them up in the first place. Emacs does not control where Xt gets its resources. > What could happen if the actual x-resource settings are removed from the system? > Would it be detrimental to users in unknown ways? It would become impossible to set the input method style reliably, for one. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 380cedbeddcfcf2dfae76242d5f8aeeb; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:19:07 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7ufc1cr.fsf@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:19:03 +0800 In-Reply-To: (uzibalqa@proton.me's message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:27:12 +0000") Message-ID: <87bkqfbyco.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 743 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) uzibalqa writes: > Sure, but do you realise how long it took to identify the culprit after the > enforced settings did not even allow me to see the mode-line because of > terrible contrast. Make things easy for users, rather than even more difficult. It is easy enough. It is documented in the Emacs manual and in countless pieces of system documentation. > Who understands how Xresources works when a user does not even have a user-level > configuration dotfile in "~/.Xresources". Everyone who uses X is expected to have read the relevant documentation. What resources are, and where they are found, is even explained in the comp.windows.x FAQ, which is where you should look first for help with any problems. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 10:37:09 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 14:37:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34503 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oizKe-0001DP-Ki for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:37:08 -0400 Received: from mail-40137.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.137]:59123) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oizKZ-0001Cq-Fw for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:37:07 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:36:54 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665671817; x=1665931017; bh=shIrRZdA8fnl5BRQ6T9x48U7V9st8IY5Ttq4SK+qfIc=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=MYcvzbkVGZV7Wn/KKZRnSOk6JVBFBJdT5AMu30/qZn87z/RiV/53hE8dlH2A9whbY OchwPwbViE/zfv9brq9uL/6KbU3vOmVm0WakoBfRq3ioflUJuu/amLyVyFnoynrc4D 48miiRCaOflNH7sQL79eGuxUR7SeZuSPlzSh9u5sZx60mwjCz8jNZzh6HLFnOgX1HH OSSd+L82dRmIbL0m0E8Yzhdsd8NJUDswChHWgS8Y16YF2zV4zsrzp/vTN2IU1zwMgJ H8jtMjs4eRsWaczSSYa3D0C6E9czxyneM8d7sJysiODSJa7mq4rXAN0QWfbpvRbuCH infyIXG66sHnA== To: Po Lu From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87bkqfbyco.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgdzc3vl.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o7ufc1cr.fsf@yahoo.com> <87bkqfbyco.fsf@yahoo.com> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 2:19 PM, Po Lu wrot= e: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: >=20 > > Sure, but do you realise how long it took to identify the culprit after= the > > enforced settings did not even allow me to see the mode-line because of > > terrible contrast. Make things easy for users, rather than even more di= fficult. >=20 >=20 > It is easy enough. It is documented in the Emacs manual and in > countless pieces of system documentation. >=20 > > Who understands how Xresources works when a user does not even have a u= ser-level > > configuration dotfile in "~/.Xresources". >=20 >=20 > Everyone who uses X is expected to have read the relevant documentation. > What resources are, and where they are found, is even explained in the > comp.windows.x FAQ, which is where you should look first for help with > any problems. However, it has been recommended to users for ages that customizing faces s= hould be done from within Emacs, instead of using X resources. I am trying to get you to= follow this school of thought. Instead we are trying to push even more stuff, requirin= g users to also read the relevant documentation for x-resources. All this and more= , the Emacs Manual, The Emacs Lisp Reference, The Emacs source code as not everything i= n documented, and so on. If it has been recommended to customise faces from within Emacs= , then why have by default the capture of settings from things not recommended. This = kind of design ideas is winding up people something awful. Emacs cannot even agree with i= tself. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 11:47:43 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 15:47:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34633 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0Qx-0005Kd-7Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:47:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40102) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0Qv-0005K2-Ko for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:47:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:56382) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0Qq-0006r7-7W; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:47:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=QdSQHFeXwUNNlhUCGF2K7Z0Oua7jTcIGohHCWsRp9p8=; b=ieixd/+BRKhi lEYNqxVeo2wNFYV9zr83eBi+cohOw2gdHUzAZM9U2+tOHyWUYc9SvBYDSQOn5oFlG3gdQCLdDQddh qoUQPNy9BWZkCN/6DmV64/2p9fbBtvK8XsbuzphKWaOUT4Lzejaf87Kkz38Ed0AaT2Eh4hDqRF6ND zA48pZQOdk1ivyHYeGHAuRToTxDlAl35eV8ks//GuV8GAb2PK8F+jvAcYSs3FKCRiCgHrFsq8M8cg fovhDfmaxw+3bUo8+oPsoobalRKgADpO25IHJJS11i4yXKCkIoHhydy6WMbaHT2DD7HYAuV9V8oXb NY3jyXU9EjqXINy1zA8AIQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2307 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0Qp-0001IF-MG; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:47:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:47:27 +0300 Message-Id: <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: uzibalqa In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, > Stefan Kangas > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:09:02 +0000 > From: uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Emacs should take the user's setting in the init file rather than override them > with bullshit that you reckon has authority. Language! And X resources are as much user settings as what the user sets on the init files. So Emacs cannot but obey them. It is user's responsibility to set up his/her settings according to his/her preferences. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 11:48:31 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 15:48:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34638 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0Rj-0005Nc-K3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:48:31 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:57745) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0Re-0005NG-VP for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:48:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:48:11 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665676100; x=1665935300; bh=DKQt5M1a75MZv+aXRWF+SwzfvSxGshUbxOOzjf66jNM=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=OuW3PJ/Aga5Uq6lCNZVo94zKE2Z+CA7/EVpN/ZdkMXvzSFuMOlZN4zVXq/pSiKk04 lpXz65tDU/1TTk9vWseMQQF4RKkriUBesboM2r1Xe+v00Nl4wuP27FWcxzxt9t1Pvv tiZsSf2wX5hv2USvVQrWq/nso7CJHl6MR+ULCb6TRff8aXEaFZsPY3reHpVtwCbK65 K6bxM5JvZGR3eI1gmLF9RiikEy4X+ZK3GR3mnPUB9f86BZZ7ZJwwG4xDr9leeDB6BH 3YVY5CIVNGzmtmc67FoCSHITQ98Gms42GSD6/bZIrqOhvD0iy1mnBcNA8MAKtD9OhL pVTnW5wBzF8zA== To: Stefan Kangas From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 3:01 AM, Stefan Kangas wrote: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: >=20 > > Fine, but when this happens on Trisquel, then it is a topic of concern.= Aren't > > maintainers supposed to work together? Most times everybody works indep= endently > > with almost no concern or collaboration. >=20 >=20 > That's an unfair assessment. This is not a bug in Emacs, so there is no > need for us to collaborate with anyone. >=20 > Bugs should obviously be reported to the people that can fix them, > that's all. >=20 > > It is also an emacs bug from my point of view. Especially when you conf= irm > > that x-resources are not used all that often anymore. >=20 >=20 > I think we will have to agree to disagree, then. I have now done xrdb -query -all | grep -i emacs Which gives no matches. I also introduced an empty ~/.Xresources Yet I still do not get Vanilla Emacs. You continue to disagree ??? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 12:06:35 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 16:06:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34669 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0jC-0005sn-T5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:06:35 -0400 Received: from mail-4318.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.18]:32703) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0jA-0005sV-3W for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:06:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:06:21 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665677186; x=1665936386; bh=Hfr2ZclDkNPsR28RL94PjIcD+QpuccFnr+U5qdiBtp4=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=Cj6Bm/Ir1YUFXNsCwsDXlylp11yhcRwORAtMOEqtiAy9tksjtSGQm5jUKj4YX1EQh uVk797dknX7sZOtEVzS0jB/NBkSJ+mAUkDDpiBWDd+nrcIpqnAmCAhCt1KuS2Jgu37 PUuORJgFcz+2pX3Ey0h43m5849zIboO5SYrQu2kpa/FmvojlTWvSfoHYm9vXR8lLB0 /nB/0PB9YScCf6twHs1Vsqjw5B3qYM8yKwwclKVQ3Dpiil/XyDhG7HQ5egGxY5jlEL pI/3FISnfefcE772w8ENw2qkBo09doOPIgMVnihRN8R0jXzo3x3uJFTn+QvYADwzjK 9CHlP5CVYv1+Q== To: Eli Zaretskii From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 3:47 PM, Eli Zaretskii wr= ote: > > Cc: Phil Sainty psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, > > Stefan Kangas stefankangas@gmail.com > > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:09:02 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > > the Swiss army knife of text editors" bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > >=20 > > Emacs should take the user's setting in the init file rather than overr= ide them > > with bullshit that you reckon has authority. >=20 > Language! Because with an empty "~/.Xresources" emacs fills the customisations with w= hatever the database decides. =20 > And X resources are as much user settings as what the user sets on the > init files. So Emacs cannot but obey them. It is user's > responsibility to set up his/her settings according to his/her > preferences. Untrue again. Emacs obeys them because it decided to obey them. If a user wants to obey them, let him specify the file or the database directly. But no, emacs wants to take them, whatever they are by default. Emacs can just fire vanilla emacs if it wants to, but it does not want to. =20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 12:21:10 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 16:21:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34713 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0xI-0006KO-K2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:21:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45778) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0xD-0006JS-Mk for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:21:07 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:34620) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0x7-0003yz-NS; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:20:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=1KI2KxxAXFErHgfRfzeKC5z/ee6pLW+maKONjTGcRcw=; b=j8xDCAComIpB wgvgc3s/O8v6atSvZlq8f4m+lyoyIIuQyGBN0B+Zx6zVkG2HBJ74Uj6OeAsQSEiSTHPN5rOc5a8ze 482RUQpBdHRR05o2Hvp28Uf/WEzmJeMgqxrlexV+a9XoS5JMG5p8Nw7cX39y0tNKD5NDfXfAAvO6/ JmIZwosf+HGCG9DpanOE/YYJN4orhR+Jo1dNeB9vitHHLiJkQtEu1oDJMc46Swm3T5jxi7iDCRAtn JEftVnAHCRjEqoTfENldXhBGR1NS3RisGIMWKow1wpPqCTQsWwdtH+Jjt+3Kc07e1wO/L6U32U6qd SmBwY+S0AHnnkT09vY8oLQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4365 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oj0x7-0002Ft-5F; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:20:57 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 19:20:49 +0300 Message-Id: <83edvbae5a.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: uzibalqa In-Reply-To: (message from uzibalqa on Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:06:21 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:06:21 +0000 > From: uzibalqa > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > > > And X resources are as much user settings as what the user sets on the > > init files. So Emacs cannot but obey them. It is user's > > responsibility to set up his/her settings according to his/her > > preferences. > > Untrue again. Emacs obeys them because it decided to obey them. No, Emacs obeys them because programs on X obey them. And because Emacs obeyed them since time immemoriam. Any further argument is really futile, because we will not stop supporting X resources. It is your responsibility as the user to set up the X resources on your system, or invoke Emacs in a way that instructs Emacs to ignore those resources. Please, just accept our position on this, even if you disagree, because it will not change. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 12:37:07 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 16:37:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34772 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj1Cl-0006mb-00 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:37:07 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:39053) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj1Ci-0006m5-9o for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:37:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1665679003; bh=I4X3iczeivIa5vd6cAmusI18a4z2FiRkTjZSq6SWNoA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=UfuD9F99EauJsB5WMY5q5h4yqGrOu6bRt0+nN5ejqthb9lB9yTGLBmxBsumdw7YsX 06V4T7JOGEov+EBLh4ULeHJ/xXnJRO6KHIpaK5kT5qobWHCohnoAkJZ487bSm2gGq0 RQ1fUFsBSxVgi9K30DU9WaoOx8Zad0v93yiqBclw= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs03.server.lan [172.19.170.169]) (via HTTP); Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:36:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:36:43 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:mP8AMj2s7IgRBcduT4PujHo6Lkhkf7oNJ6kVVmSrENgMZ7FHCOp3V4OWGl6uhO6erBdgV K58IGSLQJ94QpdgVqqUSTO6sdhGMmu8kDKGCbjYwj/7JJCUqaPc/GkxNIO2ZOLeupiVmO6TlTznU gPuFQG9ZZeoXqfJNkLSAFB74JTFl/DtOTxroi2PL52NCzOoQBmeV7AkmJZxnNSDJPNis8ZtwbGaD 4hpgzSmTLnDacK6WZrcnPH+UYeJd3PzuC4787umbrLLPmyyXSaOQs2gnb7WvZbl3GO55bzPb8U5G RU= X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:KEbc5VhNZVo=:HYwKCj3xELmCbLGnsXv7vW H3JSpgCBTbz5oDY4j2pBD5Du8fFf3Nx4IUfotAo1XesK1g1r1oDST0QlT1K7LYifi5YTBzMaE aL0wa4DAPCFY5F+dwuCaN8P8oOC1leh8ys8F6eYlk2TBD47+4w+3xk+GT1MX7q6TJafdbgewn G7/vXixHGECaZ6aXW8+A+3GtVdMt+ZjNQmzOfJ6kEnsk0n74YHAxxcUJffKpUHKTJQMdXW2Vk IovQNcW4bLJg0BfY2Xi4+H3g1VR0pA2mLsnHhl8Um+K75dgnEJoRLWh8ZqMP5Z9DcDcaHjVg9 W0ShiUefyvvtEgoHvWjcHAIY4EVZDzdtaONLTe3JMNZ5onuvhshG7ZmSim/Kk4L8rdXeHQzn6 b+FJLntry//QJAcNWPg3mxWmVaR3whEcmJGMuaGUB+MuutvM+CdiaRI5zftz5QwsMLMk2YRgn Gmsg2fWbE5dbhnpV5WkKjCCmd9Uky6cwUoBjruMWZjpkP31CwNDwwgSyo8kUFioaTNc/ARIYL quIAas4lhDNMIoNUR+lD9pB/rQ8y9n0HhAwIJPoyyc59ZfDlEfFKLptv/eTdliJjC/fGg7lLs 3GfeGT4mcrfrufZgo5Q/rGj59Y46I/j8JWBJHSdC+x/IZRT124LzYAV7ZlhQ6EZ4xXyrxDvnW VkFhu51Xcgop2m4yZ4gRb/ldTtFkn5MU3DN0DVXbOY9LrzlNlhPXGgGldVKJIUc9hd6l1R2MP 4zJfAVmpQVKjWCvzFWYCJg25IKzbICLCzkljNB08V6g2LH2KmTZtSPahay72ZdNrIkx2CGG9l 6UZhgbB6aBAHnLNRNDDZ2S0Aa58OmT2pIiQRDG2t/59UEXTu3C207zG62YgsU0ZbiSPgZaZ0W RiBnkH7PJ4gYf6BwtAJzTGqEOxPEdB3tk+hj6jKVP9Qn67FuL5/h0/enpzWyBlCUy8noNL45K ooqCAp6HW2TweBgkgrXj5qYwWR8gnY3Px1fuWdN4FvjDyT7gocTmx3n6D59i6LILfKzmw+TKv jql+8m2iIvGam1vgRQV8tZ+/bFVJeKFJaMBnfeUZ3gG3lSXWSH0RZ9P1UJhXwAE3xJJ4us/WU 2Rewetc5cB6M3mfLQWjwv0SnAqKhzQzp14EUsgKS0UFcdF7chwgTC6jbLQ7RWZPt/B0kifAL+ xYZJ2johmwL14Gd4DcNMACYpEG2r6hSwMicjqNovKNJYKbRvi8o3NaWqSYEU7SvNzVIXNS+xU fxrRhU6/qHXV7EyPSmVys5YUzQMaZmJKeTuXEh6c4fvEAfBfcJhWepB1kqTqAmTJOAVfTZIe1 P7XP/P8j Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, uzibalqa , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 3:47 AM > From: "Eli Zaretskii" > To: "uzibalqa" > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, ste= fankangas@gmail.com > Subject: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation > > > Cc: Phil Sainty , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, > > Stefan Kangas > > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:09:02 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > > > Emacs should take the user's setting in the init file rather than over= ride them > > with bullshit that you reckon has authority. > > Language! > > And X resources are as much user settings as what the user sets on the > init files. So Emacs cannot but obey them. It is user's > responsibility to set up his/her settings according to his/her > preferences. The user makes a good point. When a user want emacs to obey x-resources, the user specify the x-resources in their init file. Rather than obey th= em when a user did not specifically ask for that to happen. Vanilla Emacs sh= ould load modus-themes, then users can change that if they do not like the them= e. > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 13:51:25 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 17:51:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34894 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj2Mb-0000TL-LZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:51:24 -0400 Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]:54397) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj2MW-0000T0-1j for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:51:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 17:51:02 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1665683469; x=1665942669; bh=NRSHUyEHCNvXrVkQgPvx2JS2PW/flsSUrfCUC2WLItk=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=dC/wMP8UdWeeuF1Jfl8Wuqkm6MNI/77Ana/Ybtd5XNtRLd2G2chFaJMIuH+u8ngaY va/u6CQrutHGEPP4iHVZaEYXe+uZqQlKPZq/kunDu7VGOkKi0DRz95XqIsyBWOMnis OQtu0dF2h6rRgTgtuDOTlntA40Ov5kNrFQQN7ob8cr8J0UgHZxNfkCsc3xtoOVfqCF JX4L+0MulrFNmflIQWAi/OAC/QIDLhRD1gCrREExTvGVLKajaNOX7st7B2diJB0fln 1SqSWAkcsdPfhZHv3Lzs2kPoftm5bWZ3rQPkAtqjOyyNSS1T26HdY/M4MGlK/HTsZl lviW/dT90nfxQ== To: Eli Zaretskii From: uzibalqa Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83edvbae5a.fsf@gnu.org> References: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> <83edvbae5a.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 4:20 PM, Eli Zaretskii wr= ote: > > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:06:21 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, st= efankangas@gmail.com > >=20 > > > And X resources are as much user settings as what the user sets on th= e > > > init files. So Emacs cannot but obey them. It is user's > > > responsibility to set up his/her settings according to his/her > > > preferences. > >=20 > > Untrue again. Emacs obeys them because it decided to obey them. >=20 >=20 > No, Emacs obeys them because programs on X obey them. And because > Emacs obeyed them since time immemoriam. You know they can be incorrect because any program can set them up, rather than entirely by the user. Even when my x-resources files are empty, emacs goes out of its ways to get them from who knows where. "Because emacsn obeyed them since time immemoriam" has always been=20 the standard response, rather than employing a rational and conscious approach. =20 =20 > Any further argument is really futile, because we will not stop > supporting X resources. It is your responsibility as the user to set > up the X resources on your system, or invoke Emacs in a way that > instructs Emacs to ignore those resources. It is not the responsibility to set up the X resources. Most times users do not configure x-resources for emacs, as has been stated. It only offers limitless amount of confusion.=20 Have never asked to stop supporting x-resources, but to support them differ= ently. =20 > Please, just accept our position on this, even if you disagree, > because it will not change. Of course, I knew that all along. Nothing changes. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 14:35:37 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 18:35:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34933 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj33Q-0001br-R9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:35:37 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:52331) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj33M-0001ba-7P for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:35:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1665686114; bh=MYVaU49mTpAkc4DMgqP9L7tMXi1V3KRLPA/avoRJKvc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=F+0rujPy5jcd4LKMGJjFjHomhNpcPmvbTyh/LIqn8tP00aECkO2ypjh9rn0lVDdEc Jo45EJ/OshAq7KKf/EJ3VjUT38AIyvxTFxWi8EWdZjcjFR761NDDQ5Ux03KHmcgU6S eD5jdbTzVXokqv8JZLERMeuFflri1PtndC1vkR/U= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs03.server.lan [172.19.170.169]) (via HTTP); Thu, 13 Oct 2022 20:35:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech To: uzibalqa@proton.me Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 20:35:14 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> <83edvbae5a.fsf@gnu.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:n9Z/+p4gLDQ2OICN1r0rqoRDd7JtNd1sjSjy+m4Ck+UouHZJugYm/lqPtb8ybH+lHm9Mr LmFnNk+atk34QZRV+2pCyD4G2OLy04vmbMRLTQg9pF9xedq+3tPSPUrf96NV/9/+9D8uLacSwMDg lskRnj2sCZJXzjY3I/NocXByOnwI1Vmocs/ZWUexydZiQNOnfPM6ltLobuBMQek8/coHXqMX7Y5U uY4oM1q0Mi4yP5DaetT7jM11WYKPPl58QJSp1FIY0hN2eUp9vZ/Xyjzx6owBo/V0GSg3AwxX0fz+ xE= X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:sYZkwIo0r+s=:XL5vdST7s38uRml1cD/Nvw BMCPZBlkS4UvNLG156rVUkkYay1/ni9gYiJpk7M0gf91xXqL6ozW/WV1+nNM9dFCJP/uwxqcj HcZb5fzlUEbCsoa4qWodyrMgLCijjJeNmcjEm6vNCdrpkVl6zJht4ppwd4RJ+0/7bW2tCN3FE U5Uso9up+Rup8UZjN/FB+PoPonfRYvoUqVBptcBzUbd+Xu8v0Ok91CXYstL63VYdZIZuR9/dl 5Nb+aoFGW73pdCIYZqkb9QPf7xTY4bfrK4MtF5H0ZLtcqIUYC05XWrvmypg8LpOOUO//kML1+ f4Irawj085Ew7NFoQHksPMZ+qqt8LHwXSnKqG0NucV7DARdy/UbQExR0xCY7Pom9uVqYK5ooQ gZjhWfCtcdX+Kph6DiAf19hcQ4XigNGUzP6ETyHjPsDfJvDjhsc3FDXxkhjSHlBOrPRmPcBTL kSWY1mF9oS7TF8xxcsL94VEs2xVefGCuqhp2eWUTnLeYqUiMIW+zAppoQt4hOY8vIC0dXKu7K 4BpA7+PIlkNuF1RDBNXRg/haotn4JdeKRQlx6i5ELrNlwj/L+L7Hc/lIsihVerg9pj3uL21S9 aK4bJDBe1if0reF90/v9bK7SysbByv/cA/HEh01O/KmzA2Kw7PWe6+Y3eDzfArL5MDnmxuiPs n8tOvxFPingoiZ9H5kKxBfPlX5131w9MzoELlWpMvPKdV5UaLMGhpLxzoL2ZW6YHQIyUc2QOs H+SvYNq8PI6Dx32oQEMZ8u+Bd+lz2mYGj6hrk+saNlYBC9CUVHWghtjt3+qZUeWWsvWifw2CV zC95JhmPsnH7acTBS/RFg/Vn1eGsDJzbFzFGjVmZdp5yPslEYZWqquaRzyI3wKHFp//5U02Hy ZLOWWzztip2pSDaCn4T56xzWmw3MWLYjNRqMXU6sZ5BkgOTubjFO5dQxvust8p21eFusYPNm7 k4lhnb1es5gx/e5jPXuNJj7wDm9LBqmVf8AjMfZVQyIsQlB1B1USREcBcuakHZC1yLOcPSpcd 6LGkKXjgdqhVruwNHoXFKLVOY53MKNy40NGjCF57VKEuY6Og0nKojbimD0k9KEH6qjQguNNSA XLks6xV/BpM3e4PY3xyvrKkDsCJyNDaXE4KMU8qkwzOlxzmR98jR0gkWRH+KLVLsfiAiL2WlT BjbCHj7XXJmm/CBAAV2R0qTV8Z5Qn3NMsyv+9nSUzjeZI3PeyNmceybDEiuYx6tuasgkaU9o2 CwP2IF3EjbUINIpaiQGTCExjWbIGvNQtzaz7LHb/Vr0iQkZFi3WHhveQ2G7i/9dImIaRlmsGk DSJIIMtt Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, Eli Zaretskii , 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 5:51 AM > From: "uzibalqa via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of t= ext editors" > To: "Eli Zaretskii" > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, ste= fankangas@gmail.com > Subject: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation > > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 4:20 PM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: > > > > > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:06:21 +0000 > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > > Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org,= stefankangas@gmail.com > > > > > > > And X resources are as much user settings as what the user sets on= the > > > > init files. So Emacs cannot but obey them. It is user's > > > > responsibility to set up his/her settings according to his/her > > > > preferences. > > > > > > Untrue again. Emacs obeys them because it decided to obey them. > > > > > > No, Emacs obeys them because programs on X obey them. And because > > Emacs obeyed them since time immemoriam. > > You know they can be incorrect because any program can set them up, > rather than entirely by the user. Even when my x-resources files are > empty, emacs goes out of its ways to get them from who knows where. > "Because emacsn obeyed them since time immemoriam" has always been > the standard response, rather than employing a rational and conscious > approach. > > > Any further argument is really futile, because we will not stop > > supporting X resources. It is your responsibility as the user to set > > up the X resources on your system, or invoke Emacs in a way that > > instructs Emacs to ignore those resources. > > It is not the responsibility to set up the X resources. Most times user= s > do not configure x-resources for emacs, as has been stated. It only off= ers > limitless amount of confusion. > > Have never asked to stop supporting x-resources, but to support them dif= ferently. > > > Please, just accept our position on this, even if you disagree, > > because it will not change. > > Of course, I knew that all along. Nothing changes. Stallman has said that there are some technical barriers in finding someon= e interested in and capable of doing the work needed, but there is an overarching probl= em that needs to be addressed first: The code to interface Emacs to X-based GUIs needs r= ewriting by an expert, and has needed it for decades. Until it gets that rewrite, changes= in it are likely to break something. The appeal of an editor that can be extended using the Lisp language is so= mewhat limited. Because it means spending a bunch of time and energy to change it. Althou= gh it is true that few important changes can ever happen due to the friction with old us= ers. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 15:13:53 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 19:13:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34976 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3eT-0002eE-9m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:13:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:38832) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3eP-0002dx-2l for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:13:52 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55668) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3eG-0006Mr-Ld; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:13:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=kUmvnBNy8gQ5NCV478fVRsu8NX3cgonI1hWcYqgyAcY=; b=V7wTjzaVV2Gv uTHqDBUtEq2JQN/ex/wYCqjRluHAJUXYn2gjWYXJoW2FDGwUERgcjSiTW1ytMkQ26RAE7eDURjriW alMz5bM52OVo6irirzcFYFJS8zcvVv8Py7cp+exvtOkUGB5bvNzk2eC2Xn239XjsPH6QTb9jToXZ6 p81o3yYSkQSILSomS2enbhX6NCcGn/tUlhq/4HkQGXvZpVOJNH0nNbTiGNK1sVum3DH/PY2dSI0VW dunRUQ++/tV6T2/km2xN3EMRhInkfPY1lb9OuuduIvG1xB+0kC1vDXxPfbyRBjkmY+Xm8enUPRFas CLlKR5S8tHYe+XzactfhNQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2932 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3eF-0001NS-4H; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:13:39 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:13:27 +0300 Message-Id: <83bkqfa65k.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Christopher Dimech In-Reply-To: (message from Christopher Dimech on Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:36:43 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, uzibalqa@proton.me, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Christopher Dimech > Cc: uzibalqa , luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, > 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:36:43 +0200 > > > And X resources are as much user settings as what the user sets on the > > init files. So Emacs cannot but obey them. It is user's > > responsibility to set up his/her settings according to his/her > > preferences. > > The user makes a good point. When a user want emacs to obey x-resources, > the user specify the x-resources in their init file. Rather than obey them > when a user did not specifically ask for that to happen. That's not how X applications work, and that's not how Emacs has worked since day one on X. So please stop arguing, this is not going to change. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 15:20:48 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 19:20:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34997 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3lA-0002qw-BE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:20:48 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:43317) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oj3l7-0002qi-Kw for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:20:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1665688829; bh=1sn2P6nz2zBM7pcz8cAgif52Oe9ZiiBOGwH0c5cNoeQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=Q157dyIdlWw4knoaX76Xd5kd+2ebVx/U5yXkeyid+IwZOfHxp3chIdjvbf03PmOgj ccW2hCtDdz7cyjknxuhcMZZse4BFNFbjb7rsybEkqya7V6Ly86ZmOhF9tq0rH5uB90 SHUaFfyGQ6G0dn01rwgol4WpAzG2U1JzViedygfc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs03.server.lan [172.19.170.169]) (via HTTP); Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:20:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:20:29 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <83bkqfa65k.fsf@gnu.org> References: <0geQIvut8pm1-9SAaI008CzSdp1E-IUa3kruCxKwrH66Gg92tJgKScNSDWJwuueXmV78tcULC_N_c9LG5MADKiD3_AjkXcNQTMQ6soTqIlc=@proton.me> <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> <83bkqfa65k.fsf@gnu.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:alM4OMvouF8XNqw9tAAtGyCDWoA0wc/iYtGhJIqs1cRSDQMFhd/1MOQmi2Q2Qo6Qp308a 7PrLDlyARJZByZzQKoKy8E631oYuka8tMNdQejiFe2WAbwwWvCe9BS59Q8Heav4laU3PBuuLoMZv LR6d7StzseL2DDVXjwoqDdymdG2w1qZFoyzxHPiGuD8GyT6SmHAspej9glVodOhvG50NISzcfeLY F+Sh7K8lz8EZ5YYtOmEwVUke1OeglJa0A+3UkcZdI31/7uKA90+3HOP28bctZLU7sCy6Y3+q+5vw rE= X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:qAqo7zzTDyQ=:mL6E5HlXqPudf6fciws+18 cfIZJST6+yYgt/m3mZr+2fO4R1SL0r/VpkadeaX5yqOIy271TlTt8cYF5Mcuj2YYcZaBrT222 /sVsH0VK2MqWlrFb674HHxRPk2KaHIKJvUHmXGw73slNLB76evRm3D1Jx6EsSCLwncxoadZQD XCa8SIqtMB4EbJhOVeFEIGmwAVqryM4Kcd5J65WTjW4aVYRmnl5X99IbOWzDPMqSVaMGAByWP TRtAtNSA5Rybv0MPuRB6W/t5/soAxQ3PVJMS61pty2SfYNUXKlpBaj2Qz8T6Zz2vRWM4kKWHj lpSCzfRzzVHsIK4rCt46jAURDr1tRIhkQnF5WRxRc+QsHIO0IJa1uwDJcsSs2lTuvY7qygA+s g8254+Er/lTPRNCl14yoLO06IWUPSdLTzLS+z9WvS6yAlbWPQ+10sgHVdtZOfWeS29sTtgeYh 9oa0lp+ZLU3cAMpna5O4DR9MUCT7hf1ra66f1Lvyqp3veqS5dFTp2Bw1UyEAZP2As1pJC1y7E GbWoyppyw0XdU13mLjTYlts41q7m7+RxtuUZG5aRD9OsTmcDIqlOUZMCg46R3hwd1nUOi85fC sl+iWaozSXhSUoOwH+slTR/OEocBvAT+WSWUTOm2WH3cz0QPu4CQ+QVrJV6J+9AouEMMHhxDT lAw9/y2dcS+zQcrA/04abv2qjrzqkbWWlq6RejHU56C8GqKQI6kjLUzPXXdU64nrzSUHOLN8Q CmW9oe6VSj6CymViyb/UqOcB9CbqaEPlyZnLt4DpY4KZLYav6O0bEc6uDlUlsoL+WplxuHIgd fTsya/kroE7Se3BgqD30F/WU78HnnJ7Mye11hX7qUZSg/bazx6eN3JLDP2pHitp28mhyloqm2 bauAACiLg1+jEQEQJGoV8QPSU9+GlQXJM0nFlG7dD2aXCSlcE4fa8ABbDn2ys0XDYYEGeG6xW 6ol0k02rpLuDBvh5UaZUQ0cdAekr5OMb3kU6iBqMngvizrF8pEdqlqdM3p2fJIBciqKZ95zgC N2CRKFdEFKZf9h0eIkq8Lizx7kMU3vz1hjAkFrpljMZbGucNwkXcQ88gDi3I89e5N9w6cuEEz xFP1SFoL4c5gzV0Db9uKoXoBsNDvRhLxao5V4sWB/FlXbqt5vEUOFh8a2Q4f68aDQ5gDrm05z aV58x0YFm90aXBzPCKIOnJwiIPW7FtFBc4iaEhVSBJ3Q9VrMk10mmfkGzwH3fLtFj86UK256n B9+OlyxLl5GUoOxtJHWBnsdwfuB6kCmsmlPiibgzvT3phUomLyGT66i0ee8Kb/htwY1DtevIX cbnxTAQo Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, uzibalqa@proton.me, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 7:13 AM > From: "Eli Zaretskii" > To: "Christopher Dimech" > Cc: uzibalqa@proton.me, luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 58459@= debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisat= ion > > > From: Christopher Dimech > > Cc: uzibalqa , luangruo@yahoo.com, psainty@orcon.n= et.nz, > > 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:36:43 +0200 > > > > > And X resources are as much user settings as what the user sets on t= he > > > init files. So Emacs cannot but obey them. It is user's > > > responsibility to set up his/her settings according to his/her > > > preferences. > > > > The user makes a good point. When a user want emacs to obey x-resourc= es, > > the user specify the x-resources in their init file. Rather than obe= y them > > when a user did not specifically ask for that to happen. > > That's not how X applications work, and that's not how Emacs has > worked since day one on X. > > So please stop arguing, this is not going to change. It is my prerogative to state my outlook. And that also is not going to change. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8f57ab869bb5078d742f16857622becf; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 08:15:02 +0000 (UTC) From: Po Lu To: Christopher Dimech Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation References: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> <83edvbae5a.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:14:56 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Christopher Dimech's message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2022 20:35:14 +0200") Message-ID: <87edva95z3.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 574 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, Eli Zaretskii , uzibalqa@proton.me, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Christopher Dimech writes: > The code to interface Emacs to X-based GUIs needs rewriting by an > expert, and has needed it for decades. Such a hypothetical rewrite (who wants to rewrite the 100,000-odd lines of code that are needed to work with modern X systems?) will probably not happen, given the amount of manpower we currently have at hand. Even if it does, it will not affect whether or not Emacs understands X resources. > Until it gets that rewrite, changes in it are likely to break > something. This was almost certainly taken out of context. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 15:41:02 2022 Received: (at 58459) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 19:41:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38675 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ojQYH-0005lR-Ky for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:41:02 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:53535) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ojQYF-0005l6-9B for 58459@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:40:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1665776441; bh=hDsebQXHrJx37KwJ2cXLqMiYgIrXPJmGIGD0MC98Hds=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=c0ddo8Bxh6YLWWnceiJjjZ7Wn/eA0T0grZdzECB0emRm9HNotVUQuFerALBKotcJ5 ZsJGQ9hjE5eDIk1IeyLs8z0UX0spwRiwXRPNaPRw8slaFLazWKXmBOfLBeYFVpoYYU GRmvBfbrw6cmcgVPDVAAMyur8TJQ2PieSKvh7a68= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [92.251.127.164] ([92.251.127.164]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs09.server.lan [172.19.170.177]) (via HTTP); Fri, 14 Oct 2022 21:40:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech To: Po Lu Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 21:40:41 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87edva95z3.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <3gN0Jqr94UeUj3xJtDV3zGvZVbUyjtQFAloYxrdvwN_ZHa3tEUYyFv8h3VcYYSk_gxgMaaBW94kAkaAUCgbd9QKZMkkYJBty-7XOadbzHHQ=@proton.me> <87fsfsc9af.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7ufafow.fsf@gnu.org> <83edvbae5a.fsf@gnu.org> <87edva95z3.fsf@yahoo.com> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ejT3vz1Y7o7V6hod00LOceD+U0mvhjIb5VA8yVjrphkNIQ7csQlgg8Ah1njd5SxN+MPyx AxLK2KpRHJhavLavoz3ecoPQ+4tOxCOc1oT/b/WlGfYXWyn2G8lL2vdYKRMf6Y68Nq3elBcL/X4s RwsdLyp5Gbj47CEn2gSeR38cbZH4o33fcxByO/haPP+XlDWbi5pfYE27TBQrVj7sulHkvd5bpwdE P/tHzJDn8kpK7UthsFGuFvTYpPtjIvQL98wah7FOSEqoOQaPIIkUlGKdvNW9E5YiDDDc0GR/nshZ 5A= X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:OlvpJwLcFg0=:LfW/VPbpLN0kX0RNu6j0xg oLNnApvDjwe8r0RwkQB3aJlSmkYiZDKcN1GfnWMYB3FOT9T0KmpiCQCE+f/XzAF9x/mR2qZpO nKzFgYPME2QJoOIpOykcyOnOSR4MU2Vad6tD4X6b/fhIiN2xv4lofB4dyXhG/iApB8mC4rGGb yss2envwFEMqT8uISQGB4lUzQycBtdLeyIOjzzdhf/4DUEGJlwLMdJDYI2FI2TrSVmljei9pR TN/3xCx4QD04LXJXuL22xw5B2aZxygQRc3iRsM8CCM9QUaeAcOMCAVGeKuyvlThMif6Zmg8bW qM8gm/ix4cGAQbGd3leDJx/GFQwLvT/A/QQ5XClrZNnz3KMjfbMA9MZ4VaC4w/1ftFSleOW3+ j+9q9Y5B/ZlVAJO6eYD4zPQ6mDDhkqIx4N80hBb7mcH2K5UdTK0O417JWg1Ft2LT2YEUJWnHw IO6oTU+OrsvGokAMOMiUkgBH3lIoqXM0nVNBvev8/gR3NbjQNLBbxkAx8PYbHVEMjzyU8ffGW +CW/bmz1EdZwA4xX448f66pXmyh8jnO1p7W5aVL7Ki+SqWRymv+kaG//4+L6nSAwtsVazEM26 3PZ9vqp0kIOMKDrhnmH+IdoKWKJtC5jDqK2GHgwnJN8hqUcXaHugTp/r4dYqoEsyR+HWqjy0c 9wRGi1/GiNSiNM1A/nBNv8+ZtoyBy3al3i1nZXbRCzMnBFlsUgY3pA0JCheDRciu02M2KrMs4 wCnPr7piqFIJ1ibBTlfcyVgCaVwxFRK8Sk50jNm+p8IzegwrxwwstwOmzTct2fre+LkCVpWhN /lXO4yh8Y1FUFDQgr6XfPJHhPvwK/izhxQbygCY9aGZxMPrsNs5YxguAhvUUSCeKM+tX2kwCT po/oHQ46P6zoq+q6bMvI8HGAFtzvvporPRqKglUpPfxrvZwR60+hQXS+e68JJzzjWKsi5yXWa 2S7/ExBzHJWykniA99Xt3brt1LYuTxAqw2Pr7/ePbRPi6Gp2nJoeuH7/PLQBzEt03AqLAgH50 uz4iykZtfja4a+vEhReCSfmO/CNf0QkIZkFP/nKvS/33mxlFynkUaXl5mPKqtef5sYbc0X+u4 GfcbRn4+YTw8nsHCkjNSnJP0SiRvcdFFFf6hREYWTiPX5OySnTLcDxRo/UnCUfqhTNAx1UolU QJfJDCxtx3VFxT796iTxWGdAMtamEt1JgPqUlCuEOeHHI+pUvR58x1LMlhCnCM3PtR0lzlSqv jjXHbbQU2X3a5zKuspd6BNuAhd2u0LAmVgZ895Mw8Vo278TR8M8YZdcunH1kDZT+KOEVBmMhg ARZtnhCe Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58459 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, Eli Zaretskii , uzibalqa@proton.me, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 at 8:14 PM > From: "Po Lu" > To: "Christopher Dimech" > Cc: uzibalqa@proton.me, "Eli Zaretskii" , psainty@orcon.ne= t.nz, 58459@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > Subject: Re: bug#58459: Getting a fresh emacs session with no customisat= ion > > Christopher Dimech writes: > > > The code to interface Emacs to X-based GUIs needs rewriting by an > > expert, and has needed it for decades. > > Such a hypothetical rewrite (who wants to rewrite the 100,000-odd lines > of code that are needed to work with modern X systems?) will probably > not happen, given the amount of manpower we currently have at hand. > Even if it does, it will not affect whether or not Emacs understands X > resources. The same conditions occur within the scientific community. Almost nobody is willing to perform serious work. For instance, many things considered modern today, if you look under the hood, you will find everyth= ing is basically a wrapper around fortran work from the 60s. Not much innovat= ion or scientific value since then. Most work is cosmetic and mainly for ente= rtainment. The 60s and 70s were much more productive. Have organised quite a few projects where the path was to rewrite. But th= is does not really fit in well these days, so unless things are marshaled by appro= priate individuals, it will continue be to as you say. > > Until it gets that rewrite, changes in it are likely to break > > something. > > This was almost certainly taken out of context. > From unknown Tue Aug 19 07:28:43 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 12:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator