GNU bug report logs - #58150
29.0.50; parse_tool_bar_item should not usually upcase "and"

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 29.0.50; parse_tool_bar_item should not usually upcase "and"
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:02:31 -0700

Hello,

In a Gnus summary buffer, there is a toolbar button "Reply And Yank".

It should be labelled "Reply and Yank" (or "Reply and yank").

The call to upcase-initials in parse_tool_bar_item in keyboard.c is
responsible.  How about adding an exception for the word "and"?  It's
pretty jarring to see on the toolbar.

-- 
Sean Whitton

Message #8 received at 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name>
To: 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: 29.0.50; parse_tool_bar_item should not usually upcase "and"
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:38:50 -0700

Hello,

On Wed 28 Sep 2022 at 01:02PM -07, Sean Whitton wrote:

> In a Gnus summary buffer, there is a toolbar button "Reply And Yank".
>
> It should be labelled "Reply and Yank" (or "Reply and yank").
>
> The call to upcase-initials in parse_tool_bar_item in keyboard.c is
> responsible.  How about adding an exception for the word "and"?  It's
> pretty jarring to see on the toolbar.

There is also "Edit From Gnus" which should be "Exit from Gnus".

One possibility is a defcustom to only upcase the very first character.
Maybe it should even be t by default: this will produce more correct
results than the current scheme.

-- 
Sean Whitton

Message #11 received at 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name>
Cc: 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#58150: 29.0.50; parse_tool_bar_item should not usually
 upcase "and"
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:02:01 +0200

Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name> writes:

> One possibility is a defcustom to only upcase the very first character.
> Maybe it should even be t by default: this will produce more correct
> results than the current scheme.

I think the upcasing should be removed, and the tool bar labels should
be capitalised properly to begin with.  That requires somebody to do a
review of this first, and fix the tool bar definitions, though.  Like:

    (define-key map [isearch-occur]
      (list 'menu-item "Show hits" 'isearch-occur
            :help "Show each search hit"
            :image '(isearch-tool-bar-image "index")))

Should be "Show Hits" etc.

Otherwise somebody could, of course, just write a function that
capitalises titles correctly according to one or other of the English
title capitalisation standards -- which isn't difficult, and would be
generally useful.

Message #14 received at 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name
Subject: Re: bug#58150: 29.0.50;
 parse_tool_bar_item should not usually upcase "and"
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 15:58:27 +0300

> Cc: 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:02:01 +0200
> 
> Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name> writes:
> 
> > One possibility is a defcustom to only upcase the very first character.
> > Maybe it should even be t by default: this will produce more correct
> > results than the current scheme.
> 
> I think the upcasing should be removed, and the tool bar labels should
> be capitalised properly to begin with.

Isn't the capitalizing for the likes of tool-bar-add-item-from-menu,
where the symbols are commands that aren't capitalized?

Message #17 received at 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#58150: 29.0.50; parse_tool_bar_item should not usually
 upcase "and"
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 15:43:24 -0700

Hello,

On Thu 29 Sep 2022 at 01:02PM +02, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name> writes:
>
>> One possibility is a defcustom to only upcase the very first character.
>> Maybe it should even be t by default: this will produce more correct
>> results than the current scheme.
>
> I think the upcasing should be removed, and the tool bar labels should
> be capitalised properly to begin with.  That requires somebody to do a
> review of this first, and fix the tool bar definitions, though.  Like:
>
>     (define-key map [isearch-occur]
>       (list 'menu-item "Show hits" 'isearch-occur
>             :help "Show each search hit"
>             :image '(isearch-tool-bar-image "index")))
>
> Should be "Show Hits" etc.
>
> Otherwise somebody could, of course, just write a function that
> capitalises titles correctly according to one or other of the English
> title capitalisation standards -- which isn't difficult, and would be
> generally useful.

I'm not sure it's so simple, actually, and I think your first suggestion
is preferable.  For example, "Go To Node" in the Info toolbar is
probably correct, because it's a whole phrasal verb, but in other
contexts, "to" in titles isn't capitalised.

-- 
Sean Whitton

Message #20 received at 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#58150: 29.0.50; parse_tool_bar_item should not usually upcase
 "and"
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 23:00:56 +0000

>> Otherwise somebody could, of course, just write a function that 
>> capitalises titles correctly according to one or other of the English 
>> title capitalisation standards -- which isn't difficult, and would be 
>> generally useful.
>
> I'm not sure it's so simple, actually, and I think your first suggestion 
> is preferable.  For example, "Go To Node" in the Info toolbar is 
> probably correct, because it's a whole phrasal verb, but in other 
> contexts, "to" in titles isn't capitalised.
>

Indeed, it's not easy, and can probably not be mechanized, because whether 
a word should be capitalized or not may depend on its semantics.  The CMOS 
gives the following rules (I removed some parts that are not important in 
the context of Emacs):

1. Capitalize the first and last words in titles and subtitles, and 
capitalize all other major words (nouns, pronouns, verbs, adjectives, 
adverbs, and some conjunctions---but see rule 4) .

2. Lowercase the articles _the_, _a_, and _an_.

3. Lowercase prepositions, regardless of length, except when they are used 
adverbially or adjectivally (_up_ in _Look Up_, _down_ in _Turn Down_, 
_on_ in _The On Button_, _to_ in _Come To_, etc.).

4. Lowercase the common coordinating conjunctions _and_, _but_, _for_, 
_or_, and _nor_.

5. Lowercase _to_ not only as a preposition (rule 3) but also as part of 
an infinitive (_to Run_, _to Hide_, etc.), and lowercase _as_ in any 
grammatical function.

Message #23 received at 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sean Whitton <spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#58150: 29.0.50; parse_tool_bar_item should not usually
 upcase "and"
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 16:09:37 -0700

Hello,

On Thu 29 Sep 2022 at 11:00PM GMT, Gregory Heytings wrote:

>>> Otherwise somebody could, of course, just write a function that capitalises
>>> titles correctly according to one or other of the English title
>>> capitalisation standards -- which isn't difficult, and would be generally
>>> useful.
>>
>> I'm not sure it's so simple, actually, and I think your first suggestion is
>> preferable.  For example, "Go To Node" in the Info toolbar is probably
>> correct, because it's a whole phrasal verb, but in other contexts, "to" in
>> titles isn't capitalised.
>>
>
> Indeed, it's not easy, and can probably not be mechanized, because whether a
> word should be capitalized or not may depend on its semantics.  The CMOS gives
> the following rules (I removed some parts that are not important in the
> context of Emacs):

The way they are written, they're more like guidelines, not rules, which
only proves the point, I suppose.  Thanks for sharing these.

-- 
Sean Whitton

Message #26 received at 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 58150 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, spwhitton <at> spwhitton.name
Subject: Re: bug#58150: 29.0.50; parse_tool_bar_item should not usually
 upcase "and"
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 14:34:07 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Isn't the capitalizing for the likes of tool-bar-add-item-from-menu,
> where the symbols are commands that aren't capitalized?

In that case, the code is wrong, because it capitalises also in the
normal case (i.e., when not using tool-bar-add-item-from-menu).

Perhaps that's the case, and people got used to it fixing all the names,
and nobody noticed that stuff like

    (define-key map [isearch-occur]
      (list 'menu-item "Show hits" 'isearch-occur
            :help "Show each search hit"
            :image '(isearch-tool-bar-image "index")))

was wrong, because "Show hits" was never displayed "unfixed".

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