GNU bug report logs - #57113
29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 20:05:07 +0800

Do "M-x customize-icon RET outline-open RET".

You will see the following interface:

INS DEL List:
            Choice: Value Menu Colorful Emojis
            Repeat:
            INS DEL String: 🔽
            INS
            Plist:
            INS
INS DEL List:
            Choice: Value Menu Monochrome Symbols
            Repeat:
            INS DEL String:  ⯆ 
            INS
            Plist:
            INS
INS DEL List:
            Choice: Value Menu Text Only
            Repeat:
            INS DEL String:  close 
            INS
            Plist:
            INS
INS
    State : STANDARD.

How to use this interface is not clear at all.  What does the first
level labeled "repeat" mean?  Why does it have multiple items, when it
is intended to represent a single icon?  What does it mean if I click
"INS"?  And if I click "DEL"?

Ignoring that, the individual items in the list are also badly
organized.  There is a menu of choices that seem to indicate the types
of the items in the value list (why it is a list is also unclear.)

Unfortunately, there is no help text in the menu explaining what the
individual icons mean, or what to do with the text or plist fields field
provided underneath.  The fields also don't update in response to
changes to the type, which doesn't make sense unless selecting "Images"
will automagically transform an Emoji symbol into an image.

The labels on the various fields should also be more informative than
"Repeat", "String" and "Plist"; those only tell you what the fields are,
and not what the fields do.

Thanks.

Message #8 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 17:32:43 +0200

Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> The labels on the various fields should also be more informative than
> "Repeat", "String" and "Plist"; those only tell you what the fields are,
> and not what the fields do.

If your point is that Customize sucks for complex structures, you're
totally correct.  A Customize/Widget rewrite to make these things look
better would be nice.

Message #11 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: luangruo <at> yahoo.com, 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 20:49:58 +0300

> Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 17:32:43 +0200
> 
> Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> > The labels on the various fields should also be more informative than
> > "Repeat", "String" and "Plist"; those only tell you what the fields are,
> > and not what the fields do.
> 
> If your point is that Customize sucks for complex structures, you're
> totally correct.

I think we shouldn't offer complex structures as values of user
options to begin with.  It makes no sense to me to require users to
understand such structures to be able to customize the respective
features.  I think the user options we have whose values are such
complex structures are simply cases of lazy thinking: it is much
easier for a Lisp programmer to make a defcustom that accepts such
complex values than to try to factor them into several simpler ones.

We should flatly reject such user options when they are introduced.

Message #14 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 09:57:53 +0800

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> If your point is that Customize sucks for complex structures, you're
> totally correct.  A Customize/Widget rewrite to make these things look
> better would be nice.

My point is that customize-icon should be more like customize-face,
because so far I have no idea how to use it to change the arrow Emoji
into a PBM, and the manual does not help either.

See customize-face for something that does work.

Message #17 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 14:01:59 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> My point is that customize-icon should be more like customize-face,
> because so far I have no idea how to use it to change the arrow Emoji
> into a PBM, and the manual does not help either.
>
> See customize-face for something that does work.

Yeah, any user understands this gorgeous interface immediately:

[Message part 2 (image/png, inline)]

[Message part 3 (text/plain, inline)]

Anyway, icons are more complicated than faces.

Message #20 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 20:14:05 +0800

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> My point is that customize-icon should be more like customize-face,
>> because so far I have no idea how to use it to change the arrow Emoji
>> into a PBM, and the manual does not help either.
>>
>> See customize-face for something that does work.
>
> Yeah, any user understands this gorgeous interface immediately:

I know that's supposed to be sarcasm, but yes, what it does is
immediately obvious, "Box around text", "Width", "Vertical", "Color",
"Foreground", "Background" and "Inherit" tell you much more than
"Plist", "Repeat" and "Choice".

> Anyway, icons are more complicated than faces.

Why? If they really are that complicated, they should be made simpler.

Message #23 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 14:23:56 +0200

Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> Why? If they really are that complicated, they should be made simpler.

Some things are complicated.

Message #26 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 20:30:54 +0800

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Why? If they really are that complicated, they should be made simpler.
>
> Some things are complicated.

How are they complicated, and why can't they be made simpler? I've never
seen another system where icons have to be so complicated that there is
no straightforward way for a user to make the icons images.

Message #29 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 14:35:46 +0200

Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> How are they complicated, and why can't they be made simpler?

See icons.el.

> I've never seen another system where icons have to be so complicated
> that there is no straightforward way for a user to make the icons
> images.

You've probably never seen another system that had just introduced a new
language level mechanism for icons a couple weeks earlier, either?

Like I said, fixing Customize to be less awful would be very welcome.
Please go ahead.

Message #32 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 20:48:32 +0800

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> See icons.el.

That doesn't help, since I want to change an existing icon, not
introduce a new one.

> You've probably never seen another system that had just introduced a new
> language level mechanism for icons a couple weeks earlier, either?

Language-level mechanism?

> Like I said, fixing Customize to be less awful would be very welcome.

It's not a problem with Customize.  Customize is for customizing faces
and variables.  `customize-icon' is something new, so the problem is
there.

> Please go ahead.

I'm afraid I don't understand how icons.el is supposed to work, and it
seems overcomplicated.

How about replacing it with something straightforward, such as a single
function insert-icon, which inserts the appropriate icon according to a
list of image specs?  Then, the first image in the list that can be
displayed is inserted into the buffer.

Fallback text can also be supplied as the last element of the list, and
is displayed on terminals that do not support images.

Message #35 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 07:45:39 +0200

Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> I'm afraid I don't understand how icons.el is supposed to work, and it
> seems overcomplicated.

It's as simple as it can be.

Message #38 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 14:51:00 +0800

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> It's as simple as it can be.

Why? You never answered that.

"As simple as it can be" would be a single string giving the file name
of an image.

Message #41 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 08:53:46 +0200

Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> Why? You never answered that.

If you read the manual, it should answer your questions.

Message #44 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 15:31:50 +0800

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> If you read the manual, it should answer your questions.

There is nothing in the manual about customizing icons, except for a
brief mention of `customize-icon'.  Hence this bug report.

Message #47 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda <at> gmail.com>
To: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>, 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 08:12:06 -0300

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> Do "M-x customize-icon RET outline-open RET".
>
> You will see the following interface:
>
> INS DEL List:
>             Choice: Value Menu Colorful Emojis
>             Repeat:
>             INS DEL String: 🔽
>             INS
>             Plist:
>             INS
> INS DEL List:
>             Choice: Value Menu Monochrome Symbols
>             Repeat:
>             INS DEL String:  ⯆
>             INS
>             Plist:
>             INS
> INS DEL List:
>             Choice: Value Menu Text Only
>             Repeat:
>             INS DEL String:  close
>             INS
>             Plist:
>             INS
> INS
>     State : STANDARD.
>
> How to use this interface is not clear at all.  What does the first
> level labeled "repeat" mean?  Why does it have multiple items, when it
> is intended to represent a single icon?  What does it mean if I click
> "INS"?  And if I click "DEL"?
>
> Ignoring that, the individual items in the list are also badly
> organized.  There is a menu of choices that seem to indicate the types
> of the items in the value list (why it is a list is also unclear.)
>
> Unfortunately, there is no help text in the menu explaining what the
> individual icons mean, or what to do with the text or plist fields field
> provided underneath.  The fields also don't update in response to
> changes to the type, which doesn't make sense unless selecting "Images"
> will automagically transform an Emoji symbol into an image.
>
> The labels on the various fields should also be more informative than
> "Repeat", "String" and "Plist"; those only tell you what the fields are,
> and not what the fields do.

I tried to improve the tags for the custom-icon widget.  See the
attached patch.

I'm willing to work on this, so any feedback is appreaciated. Thanks.

[0001-Improve-tags-in-custom-icon-widget.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #50 received at 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 57113 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#57113: 29.0.50; Confusing icon customization interface
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2023 21:00:53 +0800

Mauro Aranda <maurooaranda <at> gmail.com> writes:

> I tried to improve the tags for the custom-icon widget.  See the
> attached patch.
>
> I'm willing to work on this, so any feedback is appreaciated. Thanks.

Thanks.  I cannot devote any time to this problem, so please feel at
liberty to abound in your own sense.

I think that a handful of adjustments to the widget's layout won't
address the issues I raised, since they are intrinsic to the "array of
buttons and text fields" paradigm which most Customize widgets follow.

This paradigm befits customizing user options, which must frequently be
represented by individual widgets controlling nested data structures;
with icons, which are merely small symbols representing a capacity or
event, there is no analogous justification for such undue complexity.

The raison d'etre for Easy Customization is to provide an abstract and
unambiguous interface for the user to customize Emacs to his heart's
content--in the case of icons, it should provide a mechanism for
replacing the symbol displayed in one or two clicks and nothing beyond
that.

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