From unknown Sun Aug 10 00:26:26 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#57046 <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#57046 <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Reply-To: bug#57046 <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 07:26:26 +0000 retitle 57046 Spanish documentation uses exclusive language reassign 57046 guix submitter 57046 lfvega@tutanota.com severity 57046 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 07 17:32:11 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Aug 2022 21:32:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38406 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKnsV-0008Ea-UU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 17:32:11 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:48696) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKiaO-00089O-3i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:53:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43818) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKiaN-00043K-Se for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:53:03 -0400 Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:38848) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKiaM-0004rD-1B for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:53:03 -0400 Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5CCFBF5A1 for ; Sun, 7 Aug 2022 15:52:58 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1659887578; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:Sender; bh=Uxv0sfmMBEXqfURAbD3eQYmgrWytpHVPTxHJQsD66FY=; b=voFKsRpwfyWNub5j2Li2GrJyoNILo/JJH9yBj+XYeXzQQZv/8Be30wQwiS0ZTl/C NMxrHvcq1Dbhe6pK/wRIpFDHJfB2QFTVRZo6qE178KhxVo1ozKOqWpMCPAbTozYr9ku 16K0bDR3epiKHVpq+jbt3evc0gAdgEIwrf6Q/vlCKs+jDhi69HBWZcGuBWhtv9mX9gr BAQiAW9y+6lI6iZmdw29r3PCg/b4qHBQ+6N3h05Kve/ajokZjELoOUvewNw66kNHf8s aTWxkZdjBmNKa7p1qwGs0QWRLSFCyA22rFpOicjkAKVe3wFepWWWE4xetRGKLcL3Q+Z Fs4TybRFrg== Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2022 17:52:58 +0200 (CEST) From: lfvega@tutanota.com To: bug-guix@gnu.org Message-ID: Subject: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.162; envelope-from=lfvega@tutanota.com; helo=w1.tutanota.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 07 Aug 2022 17:32:06 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) I applaud your effort using inclusive language in the official documentation, as someone who uses it daily in most occasions. Sadly, I've seen some concerning issues in the Spanish documentation related to the usage of inclusive language, specifically in the manual (https://guix.gnu.org/es/manual/es/guix.es.html) There are references everywhere to "usuaria", the feminine form of "usuario" (user). Like for example the title of point 10.5: "Cuentas de usuaria", or in 2.1.2: "la usuaria root". Using the feminine form "usuaria" like it was neutral is as exclusive (if not more, since that's done consciously) as using the masculine form. If you want to make "usuario" neutral, please use alternative ways like making up neutral words using the "e" or the "x": "le usuarie root" / "lx usuarix root". To give some context, in Spanish, inclusive language still isn't academically accepted, the way to refer to some person or group in a neutral way is usually using the masculine forms as neutral forms. Now, the few of us who have been doing efforts for years using inclusive language to be respectful with every sensitivity, try to avoid using masculine forms as neutral, and reword sentences or use equivalent gender neutral words when those exist. This requires effort since Spanish is a heavily gendered language, and sometimes it isn't possible, like in the "usuario" example above. In those cases the trend is to make up neutral words like I pointed out. Swapping masculine forms with their feminine counterpart and pretending they're neutral creates a problem on top of a problem. -- Sincerely, L. F. Vega From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 08 06:39:47 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Aug 2022 10:39:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39318 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oL0Al-0001bx-7S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 06:39:47 -0400 Received: from mail-40136.proton.ch ([185.70.40.136]:25665) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oL0Ag-0001bf-89 for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 06:39:45 -0400 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 10:39:24 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jeandudey.tech; s=protonmail3; t=1659955175; x=1660214375; bh=VjOFOyxRA99dyhAU8+TADxHoWVS8S43ezcjgC66D6ok=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc: Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=HML40kqdUOWYHbsbIPvgscWMxScPQ/4rjD4TOHnVMZIQazqdyhxfWiYTANAJmMp02 nki29o0r1j9SjI+R2onyWogtATDJNCydDoFaLnZbLdnQNjwmEW/XuehQpHCtY5Wzx4 tF6WNrLGDQ3tI1Epnlqi8GeAz/cMfI5H47I83PxI0RlISI2G/QC/r2Bs33Y811XdzM l/hTHAZCQB5hIerbO96l1Ycd+eHkRcuUO1iGWqdUjtgWdQPq3NM/Nq2CSIWoRpGF3q VdAfyyIyd087q9gjDb/DYghgF0KGbKIVgdVXBoYJOPd60cNJDF2K1HywL3/ZWVy4R3 Gil08VRZo3sBA== To: "57046@debbugs.gnu.org" <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> From: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Subject: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 20187791:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, As an Spanish speaker too I didn't notice it at first when reading the documentation and feels weird that it's deliberately "usuaria" instead of "usuario". For example, in Argentina, only 8% of the population uses inclusive language: https://www.diariodecultura.com.ar/columna-izquierda/solo-el-8-de-la-poblac= ion-utiliza-el-lenguaje-inclusivo-con-frecuencia/ Couldn't find more statistics on the matter. Not only using "usuaria" it's exclusive but it's also grammatically incorrect, the proper way would be using "usuario" which includes all genders and "usuario y usuaria", but it is too verbose IMHO. For example: - "Cuentas de usuario" - "Cuentas de usuario y usuaria" The latter one is used a lot by the Venezuelan government when they try to be inclusive, but it's tiring to the reader and doesn't provide additional context. >Swapping masculine forms with their feminine counterpart and pretending th= ey're neutral creates a problem on top of a problem. Completely agree. =E2=80=94 Jean-Pierre De Jesus DIAZ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 08 07:02:08 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Aug 2022 11:02:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39346 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oL0WN-0002Dz-WB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 07:02:08 -0400 Received: from mail-4323.proton.ch ([185.70.43.23]:10003) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oL0WI-0002DO-2u for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 07:02:06 -0400 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 11:01:50 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jeandudey.tech; s=protonmail3; t=1659956514; x=1660215714; bh=q3Z0GpEb6wWBFhHv9w/t2J/GOKJX9eMj4BDBSlwsQP4=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc: Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=GLm7ga3Tjfg7++Hi09DA4qJOv9p70zYi045drxv13s85MpFxAY9u4+ri5WmaHz1jZ xKehcIDI/nXm9nfsp7zrHUyv97OJKLEJPJl4BtEJg0WOqrBrI++eKpntKX0cwYKQj4 F6HtZX/U+nnnQGhBXVwuFb8VJ3Fh8lCujUyZtgaU+YRXVx7Ib0w2US7GYxaZfXkkl/ hVWyr2sCqlDUHYo5NWGPysXy/e8X4p8e8MTeTUANK2hNKthbhsWpamFcvPAovbPxT6 UXJA52Lm4Ss1KoELrcCK2cMI5/p35/Hl5O/SasUneoUXNLw3smg3NKse11vUmoDF+e mnqi92JzcJRow== To: "57046@debbugs.gnu.org" <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> From: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Subject: (No Subject) Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 20187791:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: FWIW author cites: https://guix.gnu.org/es/manual/es/guix.es.html#DOCF50 As the reason for using feminine words. Content analysis details: (2.0 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.0 SLIGHTLY_BAD_SUBJECT Subject contains something slightly spammy -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [185.70.43.23 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) FWIW author cites: https://guix.gnu.org/es/manual/es/guix.es.html#DOCF50 As the reason for using feminine words. https://guix.gnu.org/es/manual/es/guix.es.html#FOOT50 Quoting from the manual: >NdT: En esta traducci=C3=B3n se ha optado por usar el femenino para referi= rse a personas, ya que es el g=C3=A9nero gramatical de dicha palabra. Aunqu= e las construcciones impersonales pueden adoptarse en la mayor=C3=ADa de ca= sos, tambi=C3=A9n pueden llegar a ser muy artificiales en otros usos del ca= stellano; en ocasiones son directamente imposibles. Algunas construcciones = que proponen la neutralidad de g=C3=A9nero dificultan la lectura autom= =C3=A1tica (-x), o bien dificultan la correcci=C3=B3n autom=C3=A1tica (-e),= o bien aumentan significativamente la redundancia y reducen del mismo modo= la velocidad en la lectura (-as/os, -as y -os). No obstante, la adopci= =C3=B3n del genero neutro heredado del lat=C3=ADn, el que en castellano se = ha unido con el masculino, como construcci=C3=B3n neutral de g=C3=A9nero se= considera inaceptable, ya que ser=C3=ADa equivalente al =E2=80=9Cit= =E2=80=9D en ingl=C3=A9s, nada m=C3=A1s lejos de la intenci=C3=B3n de las a= utoras originales del texto. >En esta traducci=C3=B3n se ha optado por usar el femenino para referirse a= personas, ya que es el g=C3=A9nero gramatical de dicha palabra. Yes, right, "personas" is feminine, but doesn't mean "usuario" has to be ch= anged to a feminine word just because the word we use to designate people is femi= nine, it has no relation. An user can not only represent people, but an organizat= ion, a team, etc. >la adopci=C3=B3n del genero neutro heredado del lat=C3=ADn, el que en cast= ellano se ha unido con el masculino, como construcci=C3=B3n neutral de g= =C3=A9nero se considera inaceptable That's not a fact, it's an opinion, and a very personal one. >nada m=C3=A1s lejos de la intenci=C3=B3n de las autoras originales del tex= to. This one, here it's written as "autoras" as feminine when "autores" is alre= ady a neutral word, it's doesn't refer to a man nor a woman, just a group of pe= ople that authored something. So, if Spanish has already gendered words, with ma= sculine, feminine and neutral, and a neutral word is already available, then what's = the real intention of the author of that foot note? --- I feel like the guideline for writing using neutral words was taken out of = context and abused for personal purposes. =E2=80=94 Jean-Pierre De Jesus DIAZ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 08 10:18:28 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Aug 2022 14:18:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41411 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oL3aO-0001Re-BF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 10:18:28 -0400 Received: from relay.yourmailgateway.de ([188.68.61.106]:48207) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oL3aJ-0001RQ-Ke for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 10:18:26 -0400 Received: from mors-relay-8405.netcup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mors-relay-8405.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M1dbK67rzz6vSk; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 16:18:21 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: mors-relay-8405.netcup.net; dkim=permerror (bad message/signature format) Received: from policy02-mors.netcup.net (unknown [46.38.225.53]) by mors-relay-8405.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M1dbK5jr0z6vSg; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 16:18:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at policy02-mors.netcup.net X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.899 required=6.31 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mxe217.netcup.net (unknown [10.243.12.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by policy02-mors.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M1dbK1gBWz8sZV; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 16:18:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from florianrock64 (ip5b40552a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [91.64.85.42]) by mxe217.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4D2D89E8EE; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 16:18:17 +0200 (CEST) From: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" To: 57046@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language References: Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 16:18:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ via Bug reports for's message of "Mon, 08 Aug 2022 10:39:24 +0000") Message-ID: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-NC-CID: A5dvSJwaliP4ql77NBmV4wGWompMtnAarbyNWFLk+L474wFJ6PVU0roj X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: Emilio Herrera , Miguel =?utf-8?Q?=C3=81ngel?= Arruga Vivas , Reynaldo Cordero X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Cc to the Spanish translators in po/doc/guix-manual.es.po Thank you Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ for filing a bug instead of starting an edit war on Weblate. But if there is a decision on changing, someone will have to edit the translation on Weblate. For comparison, * the main Spanish translation po/guix/es.po uses usuario * the French translation switches between =E2=80=9Cutilisateur=C2=B7rices= =E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cutilisatrices et utilisateurs=E2=80=9D and more often masculine = =E2=80=9Cutilisateurs=E2=80=9D * the Portuguese, Russian, German translation use masculine (although at least for German I use feminine in some examples) * German word for users is masculine Benutzer and feminine is Benutzerinnen; there is a psychology study that Benutzer*innen is perceived feminine while listing both masculine and feminine Benutzer und Benutzerinnen is perceived as including men and women (a different language and I might give too much weight to one scientific study) Regards, Florian From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 08 12:38:40 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Aug 2022 16:38:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41830 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oL5m4-0007Vh-Ah for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 12:38:40 -0400 Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:50496) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oL4gq-0005W2-C6 for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 11:29:13 -0400 Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46817FA0304; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 15:29:06 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1659972546; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=FGcxgXeVLg7ATs93nio6Q/VG9gMWAXy4ehOM9euAmvw=; b=oR4+erd6JYhLMxw5BjWRp7TLhptEPEJ6rwJ2ENtiDZUIY+RKBCCPbB8N3+wQxgU0 f8gFcUY0F8XSilDXtrDhdqZWBc9q2KV/Y/k9A8Yg9tHh9rRrl+EnBIv53MNtrK5/XoJ mvlGFD4NZGk8hCvmaQQ/vBJdPakdIJYr4z57Lt/tuE7yzTIpgwH66f2p1wydcZ5eFb6 4Tu1daeHwqabNrFEz1am/8EqWwHixd/kjvD8Su2XI0HQPpbAWquhvP9EuJulCSRSsTU /wt4xv4iAX0bbvDEbhkmsGcskaJhwCo5gy/XcQVgc0oZ9dX50nZvusHlE7tyLyslu0Z lFYi5mUecA== Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2022 17:29:06 +0200 (CEST) From: lfvega@tutanota.com To: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 12:38:38 -0400 Cc: "57046@debbugs.gnu.org" <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sorry! I honestly didn't see the author reasoning for using feminine words.= Thank you so much for pointing me to the relevant notes. According to their reasoning, using made up neutrals like "-x" or "-e" make= automatic reading or autocorrection difficult, and=C2=A0 using "-as/os" wo= uld be too verbose. While I agree with the author on those, we should have = in mind that from the moment we decide to use inclusive language we have to= make sacrifices. That's an inescapable fact, since the inclusive language = options in Spanish when neutral masculines referring to people can't be avo= ided, are either a) made-up and aren't grammatically correct, or b) too ver= bose. So someone should decide what the priority is whenever neutral mascul= ines can't be avoided. - If we care more about inclusive language and don't mind using made up neu= trals, we can use "lx usuarix root" (-x) or "le usuarie root" (-e). This is= inclusive, but not grammatically correct and sacrifices readability. - If we care about inclusive language and correctness, we can use "el/la us= uario/a root", "la o el usuario root" or "la usuaria o usuario root" (-as/-= os). This is inclusive, grammatically correct, but adds verbosity and minor= ities claim that doesn't address non-binary people. - If we only care about readability and correctness, we can use masculines = as neutrals: "el usuario root". This is grammatically correct and used/unde= rstood by most, but isn't considered inclusive language. There isn't a perfect solution, and while I personally prefer the (-e) or (= -x), I'm fine if any other approach is accepted, even if it's the third one= . But, as you also pointed out, using feminine forms as neutrals by default= isn't appropiate. It has the worst of all worlds: is purposely exclusive, = uncommon and grammatically incorrect. I'm also clueless about the author in= tentions, all I know is that the Spanish word for "people" being feminine d= oesn't justify swapping all the people-related words to their feminine coun= terparts. --=20 Sincerely, L. F. Vega 8 ago 2022, 13:01 por bug-guix@gnu.org: > FWIW author cites: > > https://guix.gnu.org/es/manual/es/guix.es.html#DOCF50 > > As the reason for using feminine words. > > https://guix.gnu.org/es/manual/es/guix.es.html#FOOT50 > > Quoting from the manual: > > >NdT: En esta traducci=C3=B3n se ha optado por usar el femenino para refe= rirse a personas, ya que es el g=C3=A9nero gramatical de dicha palabra. Aun= que las construcciones impersonales pueden adoptarse en la mayor=C3=ADa de = casos, tambi=C3=A9n pueden llegar a ser muy artificiales en otros usos del = castellano; en ocasiones son directamente imposibles. Algunas construccione= s que proponen la neutralidad de g=C3=A9nero dificultan la lectura autom=C3= =A1tica (-x), o bien dificultan la correcci=C3=B3n autom=C3=A1tica (-e), o = bien aumentan significativamente la redundancia y reducen del mismo modo la= velocidad en la lectura (-as/os, -as y -os). No obstante, la adopci=C3=B3n= del genero neutro heredado del lat=C3=ADn, el que en castellano se ha unid= o con el masculino, como construcci=C3=B3n neutral de g=C3=A9nero se consid= era inaceptable, ya que ser=C3=ADa equivalente al =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D en i= ngl=C3=A9s, nada m=C3=A1s lejos de la intenci=C3=B3n de las autoras origina= les del texto. > > >En esta traducci=C3=B3n se ha optado por usar el femenino para referirse= a personas, ya que es el g=C3=A9nero gramatical de dicha palabra. > > Yes, right, "personas" is feminine, but doesn't mean "usuario" has to be = changed > to a feminine word just because the word we use to designate people is fe= minine, > it has no relation. An user can not only represent people, but an organiz= ation, > a team, etc. > > >la adopci=C3=B3n del genero neutro heredado del lat=C3=ADn, el que en ca= stellano se ha unido con el masculino, como construcci=C3=B3n neutral de g= =C3=A9nero se considera inaceptable > > That's not a fact, it's an opinion, and a very personal one. > > >nada m=C3=A1s lejos de la intenci=C3=B3n de las autoras originales del t= exto. > > This one, here it's written as "autoras" as feminine when "autores" is al= ready > a neutral word, it's doesn't refer to a man nor a woman, just a group of = people > that authored something. So, if Spanish has already gendered words, with = masculine, > feminine and neutral, and a neutral word is already available, then what'= s the real > intention of the author of that foot note? > > --- > > I feel like the guideline for writing using neutral words was taken out o= f context > and abused for personal purposes. > > =E2=80=94 > Jean-Pierre De Jesus DIAZ > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 09 09:46:29 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Aug 2022 13:46:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42907 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLPYy-00019a-Kz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 09:46:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50804) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLPYw-00019N-7q for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 09:46:26 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:39354) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLPYq-0003XS-Oz; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 09:46:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:To: From; bh=pra68uV66aYxeYNIsHQOPOWq1Yl4ty71Kr6AMdS6pGw=; b=r18ELXMvb3SURR6TV6LK pUAeodKHlWF4qInY8rP8++x2QpCfZg+Qzc9Dp6u0zn1/zbcypNbCRUt7xPtV3dQuUUskfyrUD5KqT +NfE/3lnDt5ReJhbWC2OLE8J93BUvG3R1xxFRy9z0TY7um4XatDWIzWVRHpZRWiRRcr8r2wII6+8g wVdvcbC1Iy+aUSnMvTP05ScdJpapEaVit6QF0oy7UpGtztj8aJJoz1MkMGKDzo2Yboz0QTNJ32j0i X6a8gWowvzaoAz2mcd+g+jSuE1ALrqU/4mUp9KcL7DxeW8K+HdKPK7oOGNFDOTWLbxLHAedAg3rHt nMHbBoOyMD/4oA==; Received: from [2001:660:6102:320:e120:2c8f:8909:cdfe] (port=59650 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLPYq-0002M8-CK; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 09:46:20 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 15:46:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> (pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de's message of "Mon, 08 Aug 2022 16:18:16 +0200") Message-ID: <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: Emilio Herrera , 57046@debbugs.gnu.org, Reynaldo Cordero , Miguel =?utf-8?Q?=C3=81ngel?= Arruga Vivas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hola, "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" skribis: > * the main Spanish translation po/guix/es.po uses usuario > > * the French translation switches between =E2=80=9Cutilisateur=C2=B7rices= =E2=80=9D, > =E2=80=9Cutilisatrices et utilisateurs=E2=80=9D and more often masculin= e =E2=80=9Cutilisateurs=E2=80=9D > > * the Portuguese, Russian, German translation use masculine (although at > least for German I use feminine in some examples) > > * German word for users is masculine Benutzer and feminine is > Benutzerinnen; there is a psychology study that Benutzer*innen is > perceived feminine while listing both masculine and feminine Benutzer > und Benutzerinnen is perceived as including men and women (a different > language and I might give too much weight to one scientific study) > Just like for French, my suggestion would be to use a mixture of several techniques to achieve gender neutrality, probably in this order: =E2=80=A2 Using gender-neutral words=E2=80=94e.g., =E2=80=9Cpersonas=E2= =80=9D or =E2=80=9Cqui=C3=A9n=E2=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cusuarios=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=A2 Talking to the user: =E2=80=9Cpuedes hacer =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D r= ather than =E2=80=9Cusuarios pueden hacer =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=A2 Using the -e suffix, which has the advantage of being concise a= nd readable, but potentially off-putting (at least today). =E2=80=A2 Using repetitions, =E2=80=9Cusuarias y usuarios=E2=80=9D. Latin languages (among others) are problematic but techniques like these can get us a long way, and by mixing them we can avoid making the text hard to read. Ludo=E2=80=99. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 09 11:46:09 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Aug 2022 15:46:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44529 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLRQl-0004WK-P2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 11:46:09 -0400 Received: from relay.yourmailgateway.de ([188.68.63.97]:47175) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLRQg-0004Vj-VX for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 11:46:06 -0400 Received: from mors-relay-2501.netcup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mors-relay-2501.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2HV15GbBz4xbK; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 17:46:01 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: mors-relay-2501.netcup.net; dkim=permerror (bad message/signature format) Received: from policy02-mors.netcup.net (unknown [46.38.225.53]) by mors-relay-2501.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2HV14mlhz4xLp; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 17:46:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at policy02-mors.netcup.net X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.899 required=6.31 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mxe217.netcup.net (unknown [10.243.12.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by policy02-mors.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2HV06XPTz8sch; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 17:45:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from florianrock64 (ip5b40552a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [91.64.85.42]) by mxe217.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 97A7583195; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 17:45:54 +0200 (CEST) From: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 17:45:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22'?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Tue, 09 Aug 2022 15:46:17 +0200") Message-ID: <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 97A7583195 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.37 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; BAYES_HAM(-0.03)[56.39%]; NEURAL_HAM(-0.00)[-0.994]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3209, ipnet:91.64.0.0/14, country:DE]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[debbugs.gnu.org,gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVRCPT(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Server: rspamd-worker-8404 X-NC-CID: 5GM0nsgcGsCEM03pScdbtriKKrpiUQUlpbvwXtVagrRILA3t6RqYx4MV X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: Emilio Herrera , 57046@debbugs.gnu.org, Reynaldo Cordero , Miguel =?utf-8?Q?=C3=81ngel?= Arruga Vivas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Ludo. Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > =E2=80=A2 Using gender-neutral words=E2=80=94e.g., =E2=80=9Cpersonas=E2= =80=9D or =E2=80=9Cqui=C3=A9n=E2=80=9D rather than > =E2=80=9Cusuarios=E2=80=9D. > > =E2=80=A2 Talking to the user: =E2=80=9Cpuedes hacer =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D= rather than =E2=80=9Cusuarios pueden > hacer =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. Agree, but when these don=E2=80=99t work, > =E2=80=A2 Using the -e suffix, which has the advantage of being concise= and > readable, but potentially off-putting (at least today). > > =E2=80=A2 Using repetitions, =E2=80=9Cusuarias y usuarios=E2=80=9D. It depends, but I think inclusiveness in technical manual sections is not important enough to justify such trade-offs (for the German translation that is). Hrmm. Of course I would comply if need be, but I do disagree. (I have very little experience with Spanish though.) Regards, Florian From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 09 13:21:55 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Aug 2022 17:21:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44791 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLSvS-00032u-O6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 13:21:55 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:47438) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLSvP-00032d-Sp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 13:21:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50560) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLSvO-0000md-Dn for bug-guix@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 13:21:51 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:36432) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLSvL-0004lb-K2; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 13:21:49 -0400 Received: from fews2.riseup.net (fews2-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.84]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2KcS6JrczDrK5; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 17:21:44 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1660065705; bh=dddkT1+kHf6ghKsHE+/h6GK71w+UMB3z7t/Yfe3Q7Ks=; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to:From; b=AFP0mUBVdeVgZNeF7rRq4RNZrSGjb61+GHyXS3NiE3qHSKg7r5VbXWq/m/Ew1FKx5 G3XrTTNrhErZNrZxFFVPUFspTG0RIMWGFPzQcv0ZGnnz8EUorPfQfFuwLsP48oOqSk pdXSgo7r2BQ9Abu5KrlUEA1TViMlRyGUzwHYGLc4= X-Riseup-User-ID: BEC57990342F172B89E062ECE7961355BB3ED35416C328DC3111D798A107D338 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews2.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4M2KcS10dNz1yQc; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 17:21:43 +0000 (UTC) References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> From: Csepp To: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 19:15:30 +0200 In-reply-to: <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> Message-ID: <874jyl5o4h.fsf@riseup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=raingloom@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-guix@gnu.org, 57046@debbugs.gnu.org, Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , Miguel =?utf-8?Q?=C3=81ngel?= Arruga Vivas , Reynaldo Cordero , Emilio Herrera X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" writes: > Hi Ludo. > > Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: >> =E2=80=A2 Using gender-neutral words=E2=80=94e.g., =E2=80=9Cpersonas= =E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cqui=C3=A9n=E2=80=9D rather than >> =E2=80=9Cusuarios=E2=80=9D. >> >> =E2=80=A2 Talking to the user: =E2=80=9Cpuedes hacer =E2=80=A6=E2=80= =9D rather than =E2=80=9Cusuarios pueden >> hacer =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. > > Agree, but when these don=E2=80=99t work, > > >> =E2=80=A2 Using the -e suffix, which has the advantage of being concis= e and >> readable, but potentially off-putting (at least today). >> >> =E2=80=A2 Using repetitions, =E2=80=9Cusuarias y usuarios=E2=80=9D. > > It depends, but I think inclusiveness in technical manual sections is > not important enough to justify such trade-offs (for the German > translation that is). Hrmm. Of course I would comply if need be, but I > do disagree. (I have very little experience with Spanish though.) > > Regards, > Florian Just a thought, but maybe it shouldn't be a group of men who decides what language is and is not inclusive and whether that's important. We've had some Outreachy interns, maybe some of them wouldn't mind being consulted on this. Just my 2 fill=C3=A9rs. (Or we could do what Michael Warren Lucas does in his books: switch between female, male, and neutral. I don't see how that would be exclusive.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 09 16:02:37 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Aug 2022 20:02:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45147 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLVQy-0001Et-VZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 16:02:37 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:48902) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLVQx-0001Em-G3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 16:02:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51876) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLVQv-000344-W1 for bug-guix@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 16:02:34 -0400 Received: from relay.yourmailgateway.de ([188.68.63.97]:52313) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLVQt-0004pz-II; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 16:02:33 -0400 Received: from mors-relay-2501.netcup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mors-relay-2501.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2P9r0SLcz4xpp; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:02:24 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: mors-relay-2501.netcup.net; dkim=permerror (bad message/signature format) Received: from policy02-mors.netcup.net (unknown [46.38.225.53]) by mors-relay-2501.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2P9q71f5z4xnv; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:02:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at policy02-mors.netcup.net X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.899 required=6.31 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mxe217.netcup.net (unknown [10.243.12.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by policy02-mors.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2P9p4ZK2z8sWf; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:02:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from florianrock64 (ip5b40552a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [91.64.85.42]) by mxe217.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2FE38F0CF; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:02:13 +0200 (CEST) From: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" To: Csepp Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <874jyl5o4h.fsf@riseup.net> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 22:02:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <874jyl5o4h.fsf@riseup.net> (Csepp's message of "Tue, 09 Aug 2022 19:15:30 +0200") Message-ID: <87pmh99oe2.fsf@pelzflorian.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E2FE38F0CF X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.37 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; BAYES_HAM(-0.03)[57.10%]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; NEURAL_HAM(-0.00)[-0.953]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3209, ipnet:91.64.0.0/14, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVRCPT(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gnu.org,gmail.com,debbugs.gnu.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Server: rspamd-worker-8404 X-NC-CID: 5AkxaaSjLr/C1kmeslCc/nbUxCouwfBJJ2xH3UggJsp/Da0mCVIbUauZ Received-SPF: none client-ip=188.68.63.97; envelope-from=pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de; helo=relay.yourmailgateway.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-guix@gnu.org, 57046@debbugs.gnu.org, Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , Miguel =?utf-8?Q?=C3=81ngel?= Arruga Vivas , Reynaldo Cordero , Emilio Herrera X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Thank you Csepp/raingloom for speaking up. Csepp writes: > Just a thought, but maybe it shouldn't be a group of men who decides > what language is and is not inclusive I believe we don=E2=80=99t disagree on what is=C2=A0/ is not inclusive. > and whether that's important. > We've had some Outreachy interns, maybe some of them wouldn't mind being > consulted on this. There has been plenty of debate elsewhere; no need to bother; I guess there won=E2=80=99t be consensus. Yes, we could have a policy without consensus. Actually there may be a majority in favor of using verbose speech that includes all. Like "Once the patch is committed in the Guix repository[=E2=80=A6]. Users= can obtain the new package definition simply by running guix pull" "Una vez el parche se haya incorporado al repositorio de Guix[=E2=80=A6]. = Las usuarias y los usuarios pueden obtener la nueva definici=C3=B3n de paquete ejecutando simplemente guix pull" But doing that for every such sentence seems bothersome to read even in cases when the sentence isn=E2=80=99t long already. For French this is don= e but not always. Should it still be policy? A strict or a lenient policy? We could also just leave it to the individual Weblate translators until an actual edit war occurs. Even generic las usuarias had bothered someone before on the Guix mailing lists but didn=E2=80=99t bother that muc= h. (I cannot find the link; it was a discussion involving Miguel =C3=81ngel Arruga Vivas and that he uses =E2=80=9CNew Spanish=E2=80=9D.) Though the translation has become stale anyway and doesn=E2=80=99t fit the English anymore; someone would need to update it. Then generic las usuarias stays until someone changes it on Weblate. Should this bug be closed then? > (Or we could do what Michael Warren Lucas does in his books: switch > between female, male, and neutral. I don't see how that would be > exclusive.) Well yeahh, yet another option. xD Regards, Florian From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 09 21:23:40 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Aug 2022 01:23:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45569 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLaRf-0000gG-Up for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 21:23:40 -0400 Received: from mailout.easymail.ca ([64.68.200.34]:38024) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLaRc-0000g2-C1 for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 21:23:38 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easymail.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA4A6317E; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 01:23:29 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=bokr.com; s=easymail; t=1660094609; bh=mGTgloq1pxjMqXqOCud4OkI9nnVH3aP6E4zaC7w8EX4=; h=From:Date:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=Yh6DmRtKkUq3QKIU3PWT69mOAFhk7O0F1bw4dRc5YhXaALXt4JAwGmdWnlw8jLOpv s+tVWnpmBSpi75CJaP0Rh9Uv9/aa1E6wqKhUEh1UON2ikFvIQ9fKu3ZCWkAf/kCK2n 07e7QZOunhAJ/DtoUTsTbgEi63mwY1IaRI/nFCxjX4KU8TZ7NaNqFkf/NQTWeDMwEM DVyMc6AA2WoB6Fbtr3Z0kOvBcIcgc9lfYtwZb03yoeBVx2sCNpF8O6/nzDFlTrqwgg nM8VJTuXENmaU1HU1RuyVayk1x8YzAePmTW0Adfnqv4wy8n6AwZIShq+YnMVDJiMnm e5HVxhXSbnytQ== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at emo09-pco.easydns.vpn Received: from mailout.easymail.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo09-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SNGXkOz2CmIT; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 01:23:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (m90-129-208-143.cust.tele2.se [90.129.208.143]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easymail.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8988A6315E; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 01:23:28 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=bokr.com; s=easymail; t=1660094609; bh=mGTgloq1pxjMqXqOCud4OkI9nnVH3aP6E4zaC7w8EX4=; h=From:Date:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=Yh6DmRtKkUq3QKIU3PWT69mOAFhk7O0F1bw4dRc5YhXaALXt4JAwGmdWnlw8jLOpv s+tVWnpmBSpi75CJaP0Rh9Uv9/aa1E6wqKhUEh1UON2ikFvIQ9fKu3ZCWkAf/kCK2n 07e7QZOunhAJ/DtoUTsTbgEi63mwY1IaRI/nFCxjX4KU8TZ7NaNqFkf/NQTWeDMwEM DVyMc6AA2WoB6Fbtr3Z0kOvBcIcgc9lfYtwZb03yoeBVx2sCNpF8O6/nzDFlTrqwgg nM8VJTuXENmaU1HU1RuyVayk1x8YzAePmTW0Adfnqv4wy8n6AwZIShq+YnMVDJiMnm e5HVxhXSbnytQ== From: bokr@bokr.com Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 03:23:15 +0200 To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Message-ID: <20220810012315.GA38944@LionPure> References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: Miguel =?utf-8?B?w4FuZ2Vs?= Arruga Vivas , Emilio Herrera , "pelzflorian \(Florian Pelz\)" , Reynaldo Cordero , 57046@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hi, tl;dr: IMO this whole language neutering project, whose goal UIAM is purportedly to exclude exclusion, is self-contradictory. I.e., it excludes those who are used to natural language as they have learned it (including words to charm or insult or play with), and are not distracted by gender inflections in documentation. If they opine about sex, they'll likely say "Vive la différence!" If some people really need a neutered documentation language, fine: Invent a sexlessperanto DSL and make that a translation target which the sensitive can opt to read. IMO it's a waste of time to contort normal natural language expressions and idioms into eunuch grotesqueries. Besides, those annoyed by the nonsense will be tempted to game the wording to tease the teasable anyway. If you find yourself allergic to Mediterranean diets (word or food) I feel sorry for you. But that doesn't give you a right to control the menu anywhere other than in your kitchen. Statistically Mediterranean diets are healthy, and healthy people can digest sometimes spicy food, or words, and know how to spit out the occasional chicken bone splinter. That's why we chew. Didn't your mother teach you not to swallow things whole? Chew words from an iffy dish well :) My 2¢, sorry :) On +2022-08-09 15:46:17 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote: > Hola, > > "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" skribis: > > > * the main Spanish translation po/guix/es.po uses usuario > > > > * the French translation switches between “utilisateur·rices”, > > “utilisatrices et utilisateurs” and more often masculine “utilisateurs” > > > > * the Portuguese, Russian, German translation use masculine (although at > > least for German I use feminine in some examples) > > > > * German word for users is masculine Benutzer and feminine is > > Benutzerinnen; there is a psychology study that Benutzer*innen is > > perceived feminine while listing both masculine and feminine Benutzer > > und Benutzerinnen is perceived as including men and women (a different > > language and I might give too much weight to one scientific study) > > > > Just like for French, my suggestion would be to use a mixture of several > techniques to achieve gender neutrality, probably in this order: > > • Using gender-neutral words—e.g., “personas” or “quién” rather than > “usuarios”. > > • Talking to the user: “puedes hacer …” rather than “usuarios pueden > hacer …”. > > • Using the -e suffix, which has the advantage of being concise and > readable, but potentially off-putting (at least today). > > • Using repetitions, “usuarias y usuarios”. > > Latin languages (among others) are problematic but techniques like these > can get us a long way, and by mixing them we can avoid making the text > hard to read. > > Ludo’. > -- Regards, Bengt Richter From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 10 09:38:26 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Aug 2022 13:38:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46943 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLluk-0005jT-0O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 09:38:26 -0400 Received: from relay.yourmailgateway.de ([188.68.61.106]:50737) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLluh-0005jH-6V for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 09:38:24 -0400 Received: from mors-relay-8405.netcup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mors-relay-8405.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2rcF6t5Dz6vQF; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 15:38:21 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: mors-relay-8405.netcup.net; dkim=permerror (bad message/signature format) Received: from policy02-mors.netcup.net (unknown [46.38.225.53]) by mors-relay-8405.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2rcF6W9wz6vLF; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 15:38:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at policy02-mors.netcup.net X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.899 required=6.31 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mxe217.netcup.net (unknown [10.243.12.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by policy02-mors.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2rcD2Tjmz8sbC; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 15:38:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from florianrock64 (ip5b40552a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [91.64.85.42]) by mxe217.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E2E87FDFD; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 15:38:15 +0200 (CEST) From: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 15:38:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> (pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de's message of "Tue, 09 Aug 2022 17:45:53 +0200") Message-ID: <87v8r0gqwp.fsf@pelzflorian.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 6E2E87FDFD X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.40 / 15.00]; BAYES_HAM(-1.80)[93.82%]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM(-0.00)[-0.962]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3209, ipnet:91.64.0.0/14, country:DE]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,debbugs.gnu.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVRCPT(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Server: rspamd-worker-8404 X-NC-CID: Nj6mLYMn5QOoT7ivCLO+UGfmCaK3f/tKtJWPvxNyeCzqzv13QNU3DYok X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: Miguel =?utf-8?Q?=C3=81n?= =?utf-8?Q?gel?= Arruga Vivas , Emilio Herrera , 57046@debbugs.gnu.org, Reynaldo Cordero X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" writes: > Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: >> =E2=80=A2 Using repetitions, =E2=80=9Cusuarias y usuarios=E2=80=9D. > It depends, but I think inclusiveness in technical manual sections is > not important enough to justify such trade-offs (for the German I now changed parts of the German website translation on Weblate to use repetition because I agree with inclusiveness in invitations. Spanish translators may consider this too. Could the bug be closed soon? Regards, Florian From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 10 13:18:31 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Aug 2022 17:18:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50636 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLpLi-0001qH-VD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 13:18:31 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:58996) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oLpLe-0001q7-Hf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 13:18:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54112) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLpLb-0007zS-5V for bug-guix@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 13:18:24 -0400 Received: from mx0.riseup.net ([198.252.153.6]:50284) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLpLX-0002C0-Sx; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 13:18:22 -0400 Received: from fews2.riseup.net (fews2-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.84]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx0.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M2xV05CDjz9s1r; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:18:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1660151897; bh=c0v/Kv4KIytR+aFWnKRkDBEnyWieSSHb4ufSLPWVSg0=; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to:From; b=HTy8P6NXGsT0TacGG6rlOXt8Z2qALejDetbyps2sdtzqQkvQT/u3+T2WODxDkYUcI lapzH8GEYgwdG8aJZ901wZhMPzmFwrLJAE7i4XlhN+Pk/c9T+OwJZc0qm8FZD1pCpJ qWwIBasoItCOQyQS0Sag96ttqbpa8BvTcO3TTY20= X-Riseup-User-ID: F8916550EF62EDB83436C61C1198D9189A38EFF496842524EBFB2DAF83B0FBBF Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews2.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4M2xTz5Wdkz1yWd; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:18:15 +0000 (UTC) References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> <20220810012315.GA38944@LionPure> From: Csepp To: bokr@bokr.com Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 19:14:11 +0200 In-reply-to: <20220810012315.GA38944@LionPure> Message-ID: <87lerwj9uz.fsf@riseup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=198.252.153.6; envelope-from=raingloom@riseup.net; helo=mx0.riseup.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-guix@gnu.org, 57046@debbugs.gnu.org, Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , Miguel =?utf-8?Q?=C3=81ngel?= Arruga Vivas , Reynaldo Cordero , Emilio Herrera , "pelzflorian \(Florian Pelz\)" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) bokr@bokr.com writes: > On +2022-08-09 15:46:17 +0200, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: >> Hola, >>=20 >> "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" skribis: >>=20 >> > * the main Spanish translation po/guix/es.po uses usuario >> > >> > * the French translation switches between =E2=80=9Cutilisateur=C2=B7ri= ces=E2=80=9D, >> > =E2=80=9Cutilisatrices et utilisateurs=E2=80=9D and more often mascu= line =E2=80=9Cutilisateurs=E2=80=9D >> > >> > * the Portuguese, Russian, German translation use masculine (although = at >> > least for German I use feminine in some examples) >> > >> > * German word for users is masculine Benutzer and feminine is >> > Benutzerinnen; there is a psychology study that Benutzer*innen is >> > perceived feminine while listing both masculine and feminine Benutzer >> > und Benutzerinnen is perceived as including men and women (a differe= nt >> > language and I might give too much weight to one scientific study) >> > >>=20 >> Just like for French, my suggestion would be to use a mixture of several >> techniques to achieve gender neutrality, probably in this order: >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Using gender-neutral words=E2=80=94e.g., =E2=80=9Cpersonas= =E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cqui=C3=A9n=E2=80=9D rather than >> =E2=80=9Cusuarios=E2=80=9D. >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Talking to the user: =E2=80=9Cpuedes hacer =E2=80=A6=E2=80= =9D rather than =E2=80=9Cusuarios pueden >> hacer =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Using the -e suffix, which has the advantage of being concis= e and >> readable, but potentially off-putting (at least today). >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Using repetitions, =E2=80=9Cusuarias y usuarios=E2=80=9D. >>=20 >> Latin languages (among others) are problematic but techniques like these >> can get us a long way, and by mixing them we can avoid making the text >> hard to read. >>=20 >> Ludo=E2=80=99. >>=20 > Hi, > > tl;dr: > > IMO this whole language neutering project, whose goal UIAM is > purportedly to exclude exclusion, is self-contradictory. > ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance ps.: edited by the bottom reply inquisition :) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 10 14:54:27 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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Wed, 10 Aug 2022 18:54:20 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 20:54:20 +0200 From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice To: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language In-Reply-To: <87pmh99oe2.fsf@pelzflorian.de> References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <874jyl5o4h.fsf@riseup.net> <87pmh99oe2.fsf@pelzflorian.de> Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: 57046@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi all, On 2022-08-09 22:02, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote: > There has been plenty of debate elsewhere; no need to bother; I guess > there won’t be consensus. […] Could the bug be closed soon? I'm torn. I added & removed ‘-close’ a few times just now. The initial post was doomed to be flame bate because of the subject matter, but was probably in good faith, apart from the title. If it wasn't, it can be reinterpreted that way, and since when does authorial intent matter… :-) But then, as deterministic dominoes in motion, we follow the unavoidable and predictable path downward. Guix should follow my arbitrary grammar rules! — no it shouldn't. Guix must listen only to my chosen demographic! — no it shouldn't. Gender-neutral language is offensive to sexists! — good. Notably scarce are arguments that actually stand on their own, that can help build a (new) consensus if you disagree with the current translation. I don't speak much Spanish, but Ludo's suggestions sound great to me. How about we turn them into guidelines and add them to Contributing? Kind regards, T G-R Sent from a Web browser. Excuse or enjoy my brevity. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 10:33:30 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Aug 2022 14:33:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54735 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oM9Fa-0008KJ-D2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:33:30 -0400 Received: from relay.yourmailgateway.de ([46.38.247.118]:46629) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oM9FV-0008K7-Ou for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 10:33:29 -0400 Received: from mors-relay-8404.netcup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mors-relay-8404.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M3TnH37T4z7vl4; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:33:23 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: mors-relay-8404.netcup.net; dkim=permerror (bad message/signature format) Received: from policy02-mors.netcup.net (unknown [46.38.225.53]) by mors-relay-8404.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M3TnH2m5bz4xB2; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:33:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at policy02-mors.netcup.net X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.899 required=6.31 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mxe217.netcup.net (unknown [10.243.12.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by policy02-mors.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M3TnG0Mt3z8sZV; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:33:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from florianrock64 (ip5b40552a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [91.64.85.42]) by mxe217.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39B099E8EA; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:33:19 +0200 (CEST) From: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" To: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <874jyl5o4h.fsf@riseup.net> <87pmh99oe2.fsf@pelzflorian.de> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:33:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Tobias Geerinckx-Rice's message of "Wed, 10 Aug 2022 20:54:20 +0200") Message-ID: <87r11m3l5d.fsf@pelzflorian.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 39B099E8EA X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.12 / 15.00]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; BAYES_HAM(-0.02)[53.15%]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3209, ipnet:91.64.0.0/14, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM(-0.00)[-0.496]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Server: rspamd-worker-8404 X-NC-CID: exjpbzRt2szC4ddXzSqDi8K3FnZRjdLiTk4pMsEcgdMcROAXnkxtklau X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: 57046@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Thank you Tobias. Tobias Geerinckx-Rice writes: > How about we turn them into guidelines and add them to Contributing? Yes, it would prevent such discussions. But as lfvega says and as is generally acknowledged, there is no good solution on how to deal with gender here. I can=E2=80=99t really judge but don=E2=80=99t believe their and Ludo=E2=80= =99s proposal =E2=80=9Cles usuaries=E2=80=9D is really perceived neutral and acceptable. (To Spanish speakers: What do psychologists say? Does it appear feminine to you?) In Germanic (and Slavic?) grammatically feminine is clearly derived from the grammatically masculine form (Benutzerin from Benutzer), which may be a different situation from Latin; maybe it is not. Listing both is verbose and unnatural. Regards, Florian From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 13:08:21 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Aug 2022 17:08:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54927 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMBfQ-00046L-Rk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 13:08:21 -0400 Received: from mail-40136.proton.ch ([185.70.40.136]:47817) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMBfN-000465-3N for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2022 13:08:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 17:08:01 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jeandudey.tech; s=protonmail3; t=1660237690; x=1660496890; bh=RDYtWto0hpqJ8OLHb2DSMGIOCggEoLz6aP3gzfja/Uk=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc: Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=jxIVR3dpFwGhzcSDXfFNX3z0dBJKrWvoGxx9lX9vpG5XuaW2YM5dLcKsgo664pB26 Q+L+9DnEVTS2aTA03KVZttDLq8wCOE/xnZMSDozliBJTdJKnsv/9oZC7mER+xDq/qL 64KPtkwe4kRG5oZ2yDW4r3b4FSXYqfve9sVQc3lgQ/Tr1sEY8pvCg5wiiIJeRqEz7U FMw9rI9sIXf5nqxz4cQQfajvfEO6elDiCf8q/tXiTmFmMJ3KHGWSis35TitktVDz05 B6UK5V1AT7Fr+qnUEzp036rBwfRY6As3fsKHmiu4isMW/Z0dFDcRd0Pm766Znfa3e8 bqoNqg5iQUCuw== To: "57046@debbugs.gnu.org" <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> From: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Subject: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 20187791:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >Just a thought, but maybe it shouldn't be a group of men who decides >what language is and is not inclusive and whether that's important. >We've had some Outreachy interns, maybe some of them wouldn't mind being >consulted on this. Inclusion through exclusion, this is just sending the messages that men bad anything else better. That just spreads hate for no particular reason. I doubt that a lot of people translate the Guix manual to Spanish, so, it probably wasn't even discussed or decided by anyone, let them be women, men or non-binary. And yes, language changes through use, but forcing it isn't the way, people use the language and it naturally adapts, and if inclusive language like using the letter "e" to make words neutral is going to be used it has to be justified, I don't think that there's justification to do so, or that anyone complained, there's not even people complaining for other languages that use masculine words. And yes, using "usuarios y usuarias" excludes non-binary people, that's a limitation of the language and nothing can be done about it unless everyday people start using it (read again, using it, not forcing it onto people). And in justification, I mean, real world data, statistics of people using it or willing to do so. To clarify I'm not against change, but I'm against forcing it. Nothing else= . Anyway, all people are welcome to discuss this. And the fact that no one started an edit war on Weblate says it all, no men is deciding anything. I personally want to know the reasoning behind it and if it was discussed and not abused for personal reasons or a movement. >I can=E2=80=99t really judge but don=E2=80=99t believe their and Ludo= =E2=80=99s proposal =E2=80=9Cles >usuaries=E2=80=9D is really perceived neutral and acceptable. (To Spanish >speakers: What do psychologists say? Does it appear feminine to you?) It doesn't feel feminine or masculine, so I guess it's neutral. But the fac= t that it makes text hard to read. I'd say that anyone can try doing a Stroop test to feel the same in their own language to. I say this being a neuro-typical person. I don't think forcing the "e" is going to make it easier for neuro-divergent people. =E2=80=94 Jean-Pierre De Jesus DIAZ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 12 09:24:46 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Aug 2022 13:24:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55938 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMUec-0006dC-6B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 09:24:46 -0400 Received: from relay.yourmailgateway.de ([188.68.63.165]:42519) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMUeb-0006d4-2x for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 09:24:45 -0400 Received: from mors-relay-8202.netcup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mors-relay-8202.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M44Cb49lcz3qkb; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:24:43 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: mors-relay-8202.netcup.net; dkim=permerror (bad message/signature format) Received: from policy02-mors.netcup.net (unknown [46.38.225.53]) by mors-relay-8202.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M44Cb3mnLz3nT4; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:24:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at policy02-mors.netcup.net X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.899 required=6.31 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mxe217.netcup.net (unknown [10.243.12.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by policy02-mors.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M44CZ5DCbz8sgS; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:24:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from florianrock64 (ip5b40552a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [91.64.85.42]) by mxe217.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A8B6682947; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:24:37 +0200 (CEST) From: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" To: 57046@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language References: <87r11qiztj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87edxp7cnq.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmh9cte6.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87v8r0gqwp.fsf@pelzflorian.de> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 15:24:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87v8r0gqwp.fsf@pelzflorian.de> (pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de's message of "Wed, 10 Aug 2022 15:38:14 +0200") Message-ID: <87sfm1zjaj.fsf@pelzflorian.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A8B6682947 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.05 / 15.00]; BAYES_HAM(-2.95)[99.77%]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/mixed,text/plain,text/x-patch]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3209, ipnet:91.64.0.0/14, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+]; NEURAL_HAM(-0.00)[-0.936]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Server: rspamd-worker-8404 X-NC-CID: D7GRt+LkL8NNxUnZOcyPPtE0x3n3zBUsbfvZhZpylA+o6O3Y2LTTdMcf X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all. "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" writes: > I now changed parts of the German website translation on Weblate to use > repetition because I agree with inclusiveness in invitations. I suggest the attached patch to the website in the guix-artwork repo. No need for changing doc/contributing.texi, I think. Also: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ writes: > >I can=E2=80=99t really judge but don=E2=80=99t believe their and Ludo=E2= =80=99s proposal =E2=80=9Cles > >usuaries=E2=80=9D is really perceived neutral and acceptable. (To Spani= sh > >speakers: What do psychologists say? Does it appear feminine to you?) > It doesn't feel feminine or masculine, so I guess it's neutral. But the f= act > that it makes text hard to read. I'd say that anyone can try doing a Stro= op > test to feel the same in their own language to. So usuaries may just appear unfamiliar, as I understand. What would Debian do? I find usuarios on: https://www.debian.org/international/spanish/notas Regards, Florian --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=website-home-Add-note-to-translators-to-use-inclusiv.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Florian Pelz Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 14:33:09 +0200 Subject: [PATCH] website: home: Add note to translators to use inclusive wording. * website/apps/base/templates/home.scm: Add translators comment. --- website/apps/base/templates/home.scm | 3 +++ 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+) diff --git a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm b/website/apps/base/templ= ates/home.scm index 47adeb7..de180a0 100644 --- a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm +++ b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm @@ -1,4 +1,5 @@ ;;; GNU Guix web site +;;; Copyright =C2=A9 2022 Florian Pelz ;;; Initially written by sirgazil who waives all ;;; copyright interest on this file. =20 @@ -41,6 +42,8 @@ management|Reproducibility") #\|) (section (@ (class "featured-content")) ,(G_ `(h2 (@ (class "a11y-offset")) "Summary")) + ;; TRANSLATORS: Try to translate using inclusive wording + ;; that addresses men and women. Guix is for everyone. (ul ,(G_ `(li base-commit: 4c7f2ce6428a63e202cd2a9474a06f68a946934d --=20 2.36.1 --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 13 04:06:08 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Aug 2022 08:06:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59564 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMm9o-0000BP-0m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 04:06:08 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:45312) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMm9j-0000B1-Ry for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 04:06:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51508) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oMm9j-0004vT-NN for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 04:06:03 -0400 Received: from mx0.riseup.net ([198.252.153.6]:49822) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oMm9g-0007Xw-AC for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 04:06:01 -0400 Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx0.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M4Y5K1xTFz9sVq; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 08:05:57 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1660377957; bh=JKAGDUThIQLDKWfkBBMV/7MqrJHsaaDlOi1X+mC5agA=; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to:From; b=WITpEiFzL0XG8hNwVbbtMWxamkYB313zg7aXCPNv+rZQwXOnle47zJnZNPx4pWiDP 4RHcRqMYBD68n+heNGevphE0hhMwvc6y5v5rm5+cXSNMpLQzKyR8z6Kn6gGvNZp30R fEFkAWov3yqT3LOktpkzc5SJQlhabac6H7tC+5L8= X-Riseup-User-ID: C3C3AED896D4BE78033F1BFBAC3AA0260DFD6CBF6D6392EA4338A52A045C7B81 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4M4Y5J4JHmz5vP3; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 08:05:56 +0000 (UTC) References: From: Csepp To: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 09:48:02 +0200 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87h72gk1pc.fsf@riseup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=198.252.153.6; envelope-from=raingloom@riseup.net; helo=mx0.riseup.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-guix@gnu.org, "57046@debbugs.gnu.org" <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ via Bug reports for GNU Guix writes: >>Just a thought, but maybe it shouldn't be a group of men who decides >>what language is and is not inclusive and whether that's important. >>We've had some Outreachy interns, maybe some of them wouldn't mind being >>consulted on this. > > Inclusion through exclusion, this is just sending the messages that men > bad anything else better. That just spreads hate for no particular reason. Please stop putting words in my mouth and arguing in bad faith. Decisions that affect a group should be made by the group or when that is not logistically possible then a *representative subset* of the group. Roughly half of the population is female. If you don't think they should be consulted about decisions that affect them, then you are taking an undemocratic stance. Women have to put up with sooo much more bullshit in their daily life than men, so when free software projects require them putting up with even more, they will not want to be part of the free software community, because it demonstrably does not take their concerns seriously. I'd like to believe that we can do better and make our communities more welcoming to the people who need tools that liberate them the most. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 13 04:19:47 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Aug 2022 08:19:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59592 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMmN1-0000VJ-BC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 04:19:47 -0400 Received: from mail-4317.proton.ch ([185.70.43.17]:55591) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMmMw-0000Uy-LT for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 04:19:46 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 08:19:29 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jeandudey.tech; s=protonmail3; t=1660378774; x=1660637974; bh=PEktYFZuafweY8lJrzMLDVGEOlerVSi+B5+1Sn3hlFg=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=czfFBpfkwFxqc4ClyKfUNuFr5wa838Lvsihb+2M9waWGaZIa2ocBipp7gCl5zPIWP mbXxl01QRnNFsHGuBUtAKQ4TOIm8gejEyGmVH/2lCNJq3BCuHuJDdTFuUZ8k7WaZkt n27lpi69+AgUe2luTtwfcejC9L1xQxBd4yG1B2AXyoGIbtRJOjBXTD7Yov5JQHDmY7 48iAuzrW4G4WlSka9aikNW1TT5VZVw1sR1kgFKv3We2geg5PNkV5a0gFC3venRUZ4a 5OPJ66eHDAbZPwUlfNZ5Wk16I2p5weGmjDxGbuAvmtrwWaDW1GzdJNRvykBZ4iettx 03caEiJrjitYg== To: Csepp From: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87h72gk1pc.fsf@riseup.net> References: <87h72gk1pc.fsf@riseup.net> Feedback-ID: 20187791:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: "57046@debbugs.gnu.org" <57046@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >Please stop putting words in my mouth and arguing in bad faith. My comment is pointing the fact that men (should not) have decision over the language and shouldn't even consider it and that doing so is bad to everyone. >Decisions that affect a group should be made by the group or when that >is not logistically possible then a *representative subset* of the >group. This is very different from what you said before. >Roughly half of the population is female. If you don't think they >should be consulted about decisions that affect them, then you are >taking an undemocratic stance. I think they should and are welcome, said it before and say it again. >Women have to put up with sooo much more bullshit in their daily life >than men, so when free software projects require them putting up with >even more, they will not want to be part of the free software community, >because it demonstrably does not take their concerns seriously. That's right, but haven't seen how GNU Guix makes it difficult to anyone to contribute. Everyone is welcomed, at least from my part and as a newcomer too. =E2=80=94 Jean-Pierre De Jesus DIAZ ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, August 13th, 2022 at 9:48 AM, Csepp wro= te: > Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ via Bug reports for GNU Guix bug-guix@gnu.org w= rites: >=20 > > > Just a thought, but maybe it shouldn't be a group of men who decides > > > what language is and is not inclusive and whether that's important. > > > We've had some Outreachy interns, maybe some of them wouldn't mind be= ing > > > consulted on this. > >=20 > > Inclusion through exclusion, this is just sending the messages that men > > bad anything else better. That just spreads hate for no particular reas= on. >=20 >=20 > Please stop putting words in my mouth and arguing in bad faith. >=20 > Decisions that affect a group should be made by the group or when that > is not logistically possible then a representative subset of the > group. >=20 > Roughly half of the population is female. If you don't think they > should be consulted about decisions that affect them, then you are > taking an undemocratic stance. >=20 > Women have to put up with sooo much more bullshit in their daily life > than men, so when free software projects require them putting up with > even more, they will not want to be part of the free software community, > because it demonstrably does not take their concerns seriously. >=20 > I'd like to believe that we can do better and make our communities more > welcoming to the people who need tools that liberate them the most. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 13 06:27:12 2022 Received: (at 57046) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Aug 2022 10:27:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59776 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMoMK-0003xg-7T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 06:27:12 -0400 Received: from relay.yourmailgateway.de ([188.68.63.169]:45387) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oMoMH-0003xX-9L for 57046@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 06:27:11 -0400 Received: from mors-relay8203.netcup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mors-relay8203.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M4cDC672Zz8Y0H; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 10:27:07 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mors-relay8203.netcup.net; dkim=permerror (bad message/signature format) Received: from policy01-mors.netcup.net (unknown [46.38.225.53]) by mors-relay8203.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M4cDC5lFQz8Y0G; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 10:27:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at policy01-mors.netcup.net X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1 required=6.31 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_20=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mxe217.netcup.net (unknown [10.243.12.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by policy01-mors.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4M4cDC0BNxz8sfF; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:27:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from florianrock64 (ip5b40552a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [91.64.85.42]) by mxe217.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6379682C50; Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:27:04 +0200 (CEST) From: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" To: Csepp Subject: Re: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language References: <87h72gk1pc.fsf@riseup.net> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:27:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87h72gk1pc.fsf@riseup.net> (Csepp's message of "Sat, 13 Aug 2022 09:48:02 +0200") Message-ID: <875yiw4ex4.fsf@pelzflorian.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 6379682C50 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.10 / 15.00]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; BAYES_HAM(-0.00)[21.66%]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3209, ipnet:91.64.0.0/14, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM(-0.00)[-0.832]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Server: rspamd-worker-8404 X-NC-CID: rBaObAZoXooMesw2tc36Kaohhp4TrwZ4iJ4J16Kfw+XzXWprJxwNdFCa X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046 Cc: Jean Pierre De Jesus DIAZ , 57046@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Csepp writes: > Roughly half of the population is female. If you don't think they > should be consulted about decisions that affect them, then you are > taking an undemocratic stance. There is no duty for women to respond. Regards, Florian From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 08 10:09:09 2022 Received: (at 57046-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2022 14:09:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41113 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ohAVp-0008Ui-7a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 10:09:09 -0400 Received: from relay.yourmailgateway.de ([46.38.247.119]:52713) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ohAVm-0008UY-VW for 57046-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2022 10:09:08 -0400 Received: from mors-relay-8404.netcup.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mors-relay-8404.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Ml6VT2L7qz7wWx for <57046-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2022 16:09:05 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: mors-relay-8404.netcup.net; dkim=permerror (bad message/signature format) Received: from policy02-mors.netcup.net (unknown [46.38.225.53]) by mors-relay-8404.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Ml6VT1xKZz4ySD for <57046-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2022 16:09:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at policy02-mors.netcup.net X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=6.31 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mxe217.netcup.net (unknown [10.243.12.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by policy02-mors.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Ml6VS664Qz8sb8 for <57046-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2022 16:09:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from florianrock64 (ip5b40552a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [91.64.85.42]) by mxe217.netcup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 296559E7BC for <57046-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2022 16:09:02 +0200 (CEST) From: "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" To: 57046-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: bug#57046: Spanish documentation uses exclusive language Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 16:09:01 +0200 Message-ID: <877d1a2yrm.fsf@pelzflorian.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 296559E7BC X-Rspamd-Server: rspamd-worker-8404 X-NC-CID: zV9U+4tlZhguSm0bCzMTPyUFxFy4Bp23fA8JGjbX6jubuvWfRRFUQr// X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57046-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Closing because discussion has ceased and I=E2=80=99m not confident in anyt= hing here. I suggest Spanish translators remove the policy and translate new strings as they see fit. Regards, Florian From unknown Sun Aug 10 00:26:26 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator