From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 07 10:42:23 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Aug 2022 14:42:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38080 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhTz-0006Ft-AI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 10:42:23 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:40976) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhTv-0006Fk-Gy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 10:42:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35122) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhTv-0002Jw-Bd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 10:42:19 -0400 Received: from mail-vs1-f48.google.com ([209.85.217.48]:38416) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhTt-00038M-S0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 10:42:19 -0400 Received: by mail-vs1-f48.google.com with SMTP id 125so6728283vsd.5 for ; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 07:42:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uyBR5iLfojUz+iz+QRAJfYC/sEjjU+J9pByFJcJ/kgc=; b=r11rFiGe6iv4rVyr1UByQMfN8MIeRUazpHaASH363KP1crHTP9p7o1ThTTrdCMioTS r9C2CQWEFQg1zMvmVtgPnnqFe3kEVM1/Tqk8RxuIh2gmNZ07sZymV1+0hZkiHh3h8diY o2MAaMnrRp1uxLHg6WrJhvRC9pgOJ3+b723NOwIVc2U1pu6Pea3YI1RGoVEnCSpt+qgo gdskq/h26udiCpXF/BcJV0ZPTKEAfoKMbxYTD8so02WdYmV7Tuua0aLVfOMTsLepPXEG k6SbQS54zxhCzipA7Q9Q31aFcGut8KFrZT6FbzyImHPzBqqcL55J3TQOn7Uul/oe081i EquQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo220M84wwL8G4pFwllo0rgwdvbR5qhrB1vBfiIPnv3ZaWbZ9aGO igbSgf2PxXGxD0u9xjHGmTVRSQscf60qApz3L5MdW0sJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR7r0UFc1VkvoV1/voHNFSVTlKQju6nWmDqRjoi7t6faBvw4WOaIR0HFV/4+KsNxanEsn/fIuFF1849m4qaaKcA= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ab0e:0:b0:357:889f:54 with SMTP id u14-20020a67ab0e000000b00357889f0054mr5929942vse.55.1659883336927; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 07:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 7 Aug 2022 09:42:16 -0500 X-Hashcash: 1:21:220807:bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org::/eewWwUozbPhD7Dq:109V From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2022 09:42:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: [PATCH] Add a word about warnings to CONTRIBUTE To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.217.48; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-vs1-f48.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) Severity: wishlist Any comments? diff --git a/CONTRIBUTE b/CONTRIBUTE index 94d757daaf..fe03fe0afc 100644 --- a/CONTRIBUTE +++ b/CONTRIBUTE @@ -165,6 +165,11 @@ test 'out-of-tree' builds as well, i.e.: ../path-to-emacs-sources/configure make +In most cases, any given change is required not to introduce any test +failures or warnings. There are exceptions: for example, we don't +usually care about warnings from ancient or buggy compilers, but we do +try to pacify warnings from stable versions of GCC. + ** Commit messages Ordinarily, a change you commit should contain a log entry in its From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 07 10:59:30 2022 Received: (at 57041) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Aug 2022 14:59:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38133 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhkY-0006kR-B8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 10:59:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53086) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhkU-0006kA-5F for 57041@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 10:59:29 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55420) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhkO-0005eu-QF; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 10:59:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=DqYhaczMsaZB9xQ97IDbuEpi9N8TC9u0taLDbB6sCDc=; b=dGvGusossV3F NKs7jdOJHRLh7l0lEL5nzfU6rPYWg+FlwQPuA1cGa3DWTIo4/nQ4VdnRdaA/h/IoTgmbFWCFbocSN 7bmeEWXu9252t3ySFAKeiIRgzzbixTMdUyaXjyU9Joqtxw5PNZ29JKDuR3lsd4Mac7RDiuq/z4vMF l+WMRROZdFZJz21S2kdCKIa0wwL8VbBTsUbRsLGeFdo3Z71S6aYGzbT4WOIoS63DZ12UtQN8rQ3j+ 7Od5QyCBTQYt86a/6o1gVs8Oy4afBFEYjIjivpLsg/gi/DAiDMVjubvELKNeJn3Is4FcGLTKfHcIp vXPItmHcfqhz/AhbkfPY5A==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1122 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhkO-0007U1-6y; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 10:59:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2022 17:59:03 +0300 Message-Id: <8335e8xfpk.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Sun, 7 Aug 2022 09:42:16 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#57041: [PATCH] Add a word about warnings to CONTRIBUTE References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57041 Cc: 57041@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2022 09:42:16 -0500 > > Severity: wishlist > > Any comments? You mean, this existing text ** Testing your changes Please test your changes before committing them or sending them to the list. If possible, add a new test along with any bug fix or new functionality you commit (of course, some changes cannot be easily tested). doesn't already tell the same? If so, I'm okay with making the first sentence say Please test your changes before committing them or sending them to the list, by running the Emacs test suite and making sure there are no regressions. But I see no particular reasons to describe exceptions. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 07 11:05:22 2022 Received: (at 57041) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Aug 2022 15:05:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38143 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhqE-0006v0-7J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:05:22 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58042) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhqC-0006un-Ja for 57041@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:05:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=QLnYg+m8j8Dy6utu3WM1Ew3TFaD1m4aQMcD/IHC+6Cg=; b=KRTGtgB28yeaeg3HiBA9SHVuXi JjXOgKU2axTZQG39yLN7hboDryHg7T6w/pFr73PfZfTIGK3Wb0quQNU0S1RFW14yOXR9y2R9G3Uvr +W34NWc3P8TLuha0fp2I3cLzA8K5b+D7RTBRgUXR4U2/SVDBl0FMNdJ0ImsoZvpfiRWk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oKhq3-0007lS-Mb; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 17:05:13 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#57041: [PATCH] Add a word about warnings to CONTRIBUTE In-Reply-To: <8335e8xfpk.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 07 Aug 2022 17:59:03 +0300") References: <8335e8xfpk.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2022 17:05:09 +0200 Message-ID: <87sfm8ytzu.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > But I see no particular reasons to describe exceptions. This does seem useful to state explicitly: Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57041 Cc: 57041@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > But I see no particular reasons to describe exceptions. This does seem useful to state explicitly: + we don't +usually care about warnings from ancient or buggy compilers, but we do +try to pacify warnings from stable versions of GCC. Because it has happened that people have submitted patches to pacify ancient gcc versions, and that's not useful work. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 07 11:16:04 2022 Received: (at 57041) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Aug 2022 15:16:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38169 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKi0Z-0007Bk-PZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:16:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55172) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKi0Y-0007B5-6z for 57041@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:16:02 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55830) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKi0S-00080t-HJ; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:15:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=ZMwsQk6pwytpLJQc+/SmtMHqfZL6rT1Og50NCVuYFag=; b=WyuXfkgKu0K/ wlXWiLaR/7CAyFaikld+DNtjiiqPQgkIprBQZB1hwruEYNeYALsthzq4DHUiGaFAZN93eISDq0fP8 BoJRxT+P4kbtJ3YKyN6GzHvrjR0t//+zBTAVIQ5iQeO3yFqROCGgz1qzh8CkGVtGSB1PVAXiMz0WD 4en5Q1LTOFFini/n5C2P6e3G2gVQOJphZO5Q03skIMYv67AKcrUMNL9G8C9/+MzxFWuDsAXTDkVpM NQUhW/n/RvBVEonbTIgVJf7YJqQjhepuvWNvJuh2DGeDmiPBzkYO8ENI3q/Tv6ZG3Yc2Q3M5Wzq7P YG9bhnLC92ztiiROOOU2+g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2134 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKi0R-0007CW-Po; Sun, 07 Aug 2022 11:15:56 -0400 Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2022 18:15:41 +0300 Message-Id: <83wnbkw0de.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87sfm8ytzu.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Sun, 07 Aug 2022 17:05:09 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#57041: [PATCH] Add a word about warnings to CONTRIBUTE References: <8335e8xfpk.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfm8ytzu.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57041 Cc: 57041@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Cc: Stefan Kangas , 57041@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2022 17:05:09 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > But I see no particular reasons to describe exceptions. > > This does seem useful to state explicitly: > > + we don't > +usually care about warnings from ancient or buggy compilers, but we do > +try to pacify warnings from stable versions of GCC. > > Because it has happened that people have submitted patches to pacify > ancient gcc versions, and that's not useful work. Why do we have to say this in CONTRIBUTE, though? It's already too long; making it longer will just increase the probability of TL;DR, and no one's the wiser. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 18 06:55:50 2022 Received: (at 57041) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Aug 2022 10:55:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54024 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oOdBm-0004A7-EO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 06:55:50 -0400 Received: from mail-vs1-f46.google.com ([209.85.217.46]:33401) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oOdBk-00049j-0R for 57041@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 06:55:48 -0400 Received: by mail-vs1-f46.google.com with SMTP id l7so821729vsc.0 for <57041@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 03:55:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:from:from:to:cc; bh=T6ToymeGVAfQlQOv8xtbDfVPdISgkRtBBsgiZ2BcaZk=; b=g89JtFmX+54oCGw8aKhD6cRVySuxc6eSaK86NHz5Qhf25J3mI8DRyK38DEbU4Wce8F 6g3hKlQbLVitKIiz1dFaJPQ82BMC7/5fWwnspUAi/QrZt0485cyvGVSkWsK4poFx/yG4 aHn0RRYxl2QcFG5HHxg3inwXgdmB21vrKHSiKTjsmX8rtDCNQMElYg4cBVuxPRuLTdeY ZTjcJx9T9sEKbbjCSNqkenFDvH4AP6ULvac3XjS75hTNhllAstswElAL6K9qY86g8nM9 VUxU+ThAjO0lbjXr1Uvj17knSHl1FpTZhHjQ2vHNsIfUbWXextzU0s2jmECVxcjXEB3m Ee/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=T6ToymeGVAfQlQOv8xtbDfVPdISgkRtBBsgiZ2BcaZk=; b=aBU0FUrUuQC+qIdxhB4UIoTnVR/2XLdfc1JPFby3k9JZ53AxopVnodv+sBGpeFj9Fa ZZUPrO7CT+H+El1jXLDtyroH9C/1njkzcJ33LDzhuWXxxyjdXjmOZp9LGq2tDcp+4HNJ LTqJ/NNTmmOfI3NSI8V2Pua29Q+NxkSl1YbdsvCewqrzX0XAMtnXyeu4lH2dLh/G9Drd CVnFF9+Es2j1dDptUKCz76jLEObBMvwF5760YSdNZK2hVXdWZyv8XOGXu+oB83lLwtov R8SH03g/WzzSFyl7XqtPJ5wDjqzEezQqXs6lx80Ager7yVfpTsZpYW7pS9TUfCxxvzMW WUMA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo2mdmJZwlqtYoZTihSMvE1wIPFZnFLgMItP/H+bxUbUumTCldO8 VYiU3+X7G8QlE1HhpCZ8tUh/TVGqbT/MveckoT4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR4MDJjta1wYFp/xknnQLY+7TqY8yYtiR3/mNwb82rcd9Y1QDfaBGiIwJyC+WoMPHzVUg3yr6UwAJFTJQL1Z2LY= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ff85:0:b0:387:473f:9056 with SMTP id v5-20020a67ff85000000b00387473f9056mr841183vsq.85.1660820142272; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 03:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 03:55:41 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83wnbkw0de.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 07 Aug 2022 18:15:41 +0300") References: <8335e8xfpk.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfm8ytzu.fsf@gnus.org> <83wnbkw0de.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-Hashcash: 1:20:220818:eliz@gnu.org::M9IdoM8sPrj9EjJU:Bx/e MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2022 03:55:41 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#57041: [PATCH] Add a word about warnings to CONTRIBUTE To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 57041 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , 57041@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 57041 + wontfix close 57041 thanks Eli Zaretskii writes: > Why do we have to say this in CONTRIBUTE, though? It's already too > long; making it longer will just increase the probability of TL;DR, > and no one's the wiser. It doesn't sound like we want to make any changes here. I'm therefore closing this bug report. Thanks. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:36:08 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2022 11:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator