From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:10:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 56870@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Reply-To: uzibalqa Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.165935934711129 (code B ref -1); Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:10:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2022 13:09:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39677 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIVAN-0002tI-L2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:09:07 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:39082) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIMVV-00079Z-0Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:25:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2022 21:24:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41735 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIctp-0006fU-Ou for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:24:30 -0400 Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.196]:35711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIctn-0006fE-9d for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:24:29 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D16AAE0004; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 21:24:17 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1659389060; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=RjGUhf/1rRMzGyYY9fw97OL8qjbscZ2KagXvz57fkbE=; b=T1qt6dA8j7zUENF7x12fx3YoNT2ATlCWBZu1l00tNOPM0H5E0iJcoGvKWVWm8jwXd6ZOYA 8XakXplC3a8SOe01zCW5H7U3N+2g2zD6KyjBHfK1Tlr8FnJ9OzQfkV8w0a2Ob4d/oZaQFo wou8YUtsl7K+JKT16w2xBBuYU5c8rWKZ771g2im0vX1w9FKbJxwj7qevU9lDFqnNXlWa6c oMg+z+xfAyg+ZdzDDHHDIKkN8d/IC+EJ2seARanmH7pKQEA13zY6PEeqVFOWju8ogrLHc7 9Uy98fQhdVXCc1medLmlQgtlP/gILvWI8FVARWsD7fQIeZ78I9b+gh6z+noi0Q== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1oIcta-0017lU-2W; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:24:14 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong In-Reply-To: (uzibalqa@proton.me's message of "Mon, 01 Aug 2022 03:54:04 +0000") References: Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:24:14 -0700 Message-ID: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) uzibalqa writes: > I am setting company-dabbrev variables > > (setq company-dabbrev-other-buffers 'all) > (setq company-dabbrev-ignore-case 'keep-prefix) > > The documentation for the variables, says > > If =E2=80=98all=E2=80=99, search all other buffers, except the ignored on= es. > > I find the documentation confusing because nowhere does it say that on > should use 'all rather than all or "all". I can understand your confusion. When working at the level of Emacs Lisp, keep a few things in mind: a) Generally, in Emacs Lisp help, if you see something like =E2=80=98all=E2= =80=99 it means a lisp level symbol. This could be a function name, variable, or some other symbol. This is part of the project's conventions, described here: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Documentation-Tip= s.html b) When lisp level interfaces expect strings they generally say so, and the examples use quotes like "this". c) A bare all (without any quotes at all), is just a word, and not a Lisp level function or variable. Hope that helps! From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Matt Armstrong Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:50:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: uzibalqa Cc: 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165939056928597 (code B ref 56870); Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:50:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2022 21:49:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41753 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIdI1-0007RA-Gs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:49:29 -0400 Received: from relay9-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.199]:39517) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIdHz-0007Qs-0h for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:49:28 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 50BBEFF806; Mon, 1 Aug 2022 21:49:18 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1659390560; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=6cCpBvz4RurDCwq2t8DJV8ts0nBi5i08sW94mfNp440=; b=howUC/ySPlkjXaEwdAEK77WLBoR/+PdariG99yzdqVc7aKU8+31JGktdAr3CYm8+CNz9we goZoIn2nZtMKEcjrpQ5TlJrUbDdGk2vcC9wwa7PVna2y4iVcydlgstoAr2kgq2KX0/tvJL SMXqxd1bucilEoFhg5YNe4i4peuNBhjPyLnYQh4MtRXKBipRQ2uCG1mQfamGDn1pjG9lfS tOV4DYahFL/qlS9Kfz+wDHmNizNUSJ5a/2HselZEPAAmnloN4JbdUc/BLZB6vZZC9lreps CNAnIuIzS9KU3aZUCS4co97io8vH19qtezCmw7Q+bYzEq6V62Gn1U/ddqDwS/g== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1oIdHn-00185K-3B; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:49:15 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong In-Reply-To: References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:49:15 -0700 Message-ID: <87y1w73a90.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) uzibalqa writes: > On Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 9:24 PM, Matt Armstrong wrote: >> Hope that helps! > > It is a shame that documentation does not come with example. It is > what is much lacking. I think the "friendly" way to customize Emacs is intended to be the customization system: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Easy-Customization.html In most cases, the customize interface hides lisp level details from the user. There is project level goal that most of the useful customizations a user can do in Emacs should be possible in the customize system, without using lisp. This is one reason the help text does not often describe things with Lisp examples. They would be of no use to the people using the Customize interface, and possibly even confusing. I still think your original point is a good one. I found the one piece of documentation explaining how to write quoted things in Emacs documentation, but I could not find a place explaining the conventions for quoted things mean in Emacs help. Perhaps another person can find that, or suggest a way to explain it to new users. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Matt Armstrong Cc: 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: uzibalqa Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165939064628791 (code B ref 56870); Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:51:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2022 21:50:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41766 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIdJG-0007UG-7B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:50:46 -0400 Received: from mail-40141.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.141]:27521) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oId1N-0006um-R8 for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:32:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:32:00 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1659389531; x=1659648731; bh=hOXPaphZ17WGO79LuvKyu12ycGN40KKcwh9DTDeM2h0=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=f41zXoTyvGQE+Je1CZZh8k9toW1mp8OkVoTXWGykgkGkHuuIHghgc0loekKoJ/o+q U1FcwkBlktQYtAVL9NUiIZRhwOhG8LYhZorLCeqpbDTh1kExx+C48fMU1MTBcvWK0Y kYSgkxHVoL9XE3ZE7gzZMQXRfiy3OC+5KrW6ES7eeVfutZKOFK/RknT/o+5hW5QRH4 6uZ0/539IQsVf+Rk5jdjGWpvnw2ehLxVnRXbt8DcFb6wP1lVEji5W5LjeeETq8BBdL Ihq0X8oXIkETqrTx2bYDi1USjFFwhBHDDPEmLZ8sE3Nue3+WS0Dx6qe3ChgliVh0vu r+e6vNa6xp9ww== From: uzibalqa Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:50:44 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 9:24 PM, Matt Armstrong wro= te: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: > > > I am setting company-dabbrev variables > > > > (setq company-dabbrev-other-buffers 'all) > > (setq company-dabbrev-ignore-case 'keep-prefix) > > > > The documentation for the variables, says > > > > If =E2=80=98all=E2=80=99, search all other buffers, except the ignored = ones. > > > > I find the documentation confusing because nowhere does it say that on > > should use 'all rather than all or "all". > > > I can understand your confusion. > > When working at the level of Emacs Lisp, keep a few things in mind: > > a) Generally, in Emacs Lisp help, if you see something like =E2=80=98all= =E2=80=99 it > means a lisp level symbol. This could be a function name, variable, or > some other symbol. This is part of the project's conventions, described > here: > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Documentation-T= ips.html > > b) When lisp level interfaces expect strings they generally say so, and > the examples use quotes like "this". > > c) A bare all (without any quotes at all), is just a word, and not > a Lisp level function or variable. > > Hope that helps! It is a shame that documentation does not come with example. It is what is= much lacking. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:51:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Matt Armstrong Cc: 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: uzibalqa Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165939064728797 (code B ref 56870); Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:51:03 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2022 21:50:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41768 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIdJG-0007UK-QK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:50:47 -0400 Received: from mail-4027.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.27]:13769) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIdIC-0007RO-Ke for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:49:42 -0400 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:49:28 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1659390574; x=1659649774; bh=f1VYohbX+jJcz85BffGqn7fheLJp5HkCDB+X27ZfwZ4=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=GYFdWzSc/BgJ3H94Wu5cSEL5b1npeyudGh4fj4bfceQj44OCACMpuiPTjMCPyU9l0 WkxhtMsMnYGI6Es0xKUf5GS9voFFQxjdWmzdx9xizr7sHAo4byrKQrXSDazQLZbDVE KSNw+R2RCnJ3yJw+KzRFtvTlRU98E2pKQfEkS3Jh3IPMv5PlWgQr6/SG2QchzymRmk 1QnuLpskLxZ5hIOzALNhtrP//aNPmPyYa7JBO3g8/40eZAsD18iswpvM7XuheYoOLF nuduNOvCR703mQQRkQjJrkpe1/0P2ceC7qreFnglnc4/KegWole5R65T3pFn8cBVJ6 mAfzgyQAaBicg== From: uzibalqa Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:50:44 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 9:32 PM, uzibalqa wrote= : > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 9:24 PM, Matt Armstrong matt@rfc20.org wro= te: > > > > > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: > > > > > I am setting company-dabbrev variables > > > > > > (setq company-dabbrev-other-buffers 'all) > > > (setq company-dabbrev-ignore-case 'keep-prefix) > > > > > > The documentation for the variables, says > > > > > > If =E2=80=98all=E2=80=99, search all other buffers, except the ignore= d ones. > > > > > > I find the documentation confusing because nowhere does it say that o= n > > > should use 'all rather than all or "all". > > > > I can understand your confusion. > > > > When working at the level of Emacs Lisp, keep a few things in mind: > > > > a) Generally, in Emacs Lisp help, if you see something like =E2=80= =98all=E2=80=99 it > > means a lisp level symbol. This could be a function name, variable, or > > some other symbol. This is part of the project's conventions, described > > here: > > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Documentation= -Tips.html > > > > b) When lisp level interfaces expect strings they generally say so, and > > the examples use quotes like "this". > > > > c) A bare all (without any quotes at all), is just a word, and not > > a Lisp level function or variable. > > > > Hope that helps! > > > It is a shame that documentation does not come with example. It is what i= s much lacking. Am also having difficulty showing documentation for company-dabbrev-* and c= ompany-dabbrev-code-* using `C-h v'. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:59:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Matt Armstrong Cc: 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: uzibalqa Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165939114029714 (code B ref 56870); Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:59:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2022 21:59:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41793 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIdRD-0007jC-Mg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:59:00 -0400 Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]:10977) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIdOO-0007dg-7i for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:56:05 -0400 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 21:55:51 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1659390957; x=1659650157; bh=f602wG5VIG6MIf4DChZyAGhPCtDQAPJX/O8mXR6ZUpQ=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=PTN5fsBvSZ5AhoDYidPECeGkd8wGpQvrd/qaWSLLA8EH8drYbsJVzZPxeO/Cuw2V/ zJZATUXSuvZir2kH3HouXDpuH9LGe26VomfBrJQLD/0bUMd3zaDy1PFa4p1ihhS2jr UA6ah2kHHZlEG/lX2b24GJUb+Yx3/u+jcox4dEdNFk8/Z733qpsH/cDozv2uT/uP1W lc8sWfvt31YRSFHpXmAwhUpfedPrKFzwfLp/sO9oCrpP4Z3RdxVsT6u7cbPKpgp7v2 drHwy0t+L1nl73jUy1+I+F3RvVlyPxsfUVCevlPf7uSK6fJw3/J3CuKEFOxsirl6m7 SqZSQSb9Xdouw== From: uzibalqa Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87y1w73a90.fsf@rfc20.org> References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> <87y1w73a90.fsf@rfc20.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 17:58:57 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 9:49 PM, Matt Armstrong wro= te: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: > > > On Monday, August 1st, 2022 at 9:24 PM, Matt Armstrong matt@rfc20.org w= rote: > > > > > Hope that helps! > > > > It is a shame that documentation does not come with example. It is > > what is much lacking. > > > I think the "friendly" way to customize Emacs is intended to be the > customization system: > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Easy-Customizat= ion.html > In most cases, the customize interface hides lisp level details from the > user. > > There is project level goal that most of the useful customizations a > user can do in Emacs should be possible in the customize system, without > using lisp. This is one reason the help text does not often describe > things with Lisp examples. They would be of no use to the people using > the Customize interface, and possibly even confusing. There can be a verbosity flag that can be used to show lisp usage following the description. > I still think your original point is a good one. I found the one piece > of documentation explaining how to write quoted things in Emacs > documentation, but I could not find a place explaining the conventions > for quoted things mean in Emacs help. Perhaps another person can find > that, or suggest a way to explain it to new users. Such conventions should be described in the starting part of the documentat= ion or in appendix. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:21:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Matt Armstrong Cc: uzibalqa , 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.16594356609645 (code B ref 56870); Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:21:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2022 10:21:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42426 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIp1H-0002VU-TE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2022 06:21:00 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:55552) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIp18-0002Ut-LJ for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2022 06:20:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=NKrE0M8ue1HrO1TiBXp4oR98fnG1EY3ujQ0Z6sbs3fs=; b=LJt3jrMiO3GXEJC0p7wlQA4/jj 1qkpETuiA9QMkbjHujjolUxBnIswFo2ELDKcXDT25K0JA7Rttki8Yrgzftl4/RuvV97qN8Rn+dI5w sgTqzOY64elKVf8ZmjZwywFGuM13PtQS1kuq3iLFwCwtiR9OHsO95Nfcp0OXwLgeuL3I=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oIp10-00077i-Do; Tue, 02 Aug 2022 12:20:44 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> (Matt Armstrong's message of "Mon, 01 Aug 2022 14:24:14 -0700") References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> X-Now-Playing: Thick Pigeon's _Too Crazy Cowboys_: "Fred + Andy" Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 12:20:41 +0200 Message-ID: <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Matt Armstrong writes: > b) When lisp level interfaces expect strings they generally say so, and > the examples use quotes like "this". > > c) A bare all (without any quotes at all), is just a word, and not > a Lisp level f [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Matt Armstrong writes: > b) When lisp level interfaces expect strings they generally say so, and > the examples use quotes like "this". > > c) A bare all (without any quotes at all), is just a word, and not > a Lisp level function or variable. So I don't think there's anything to fix in Emacs here -- we sometimes say "the symbol `all'" if there's an unusual amount of possible confusion present -- and I'm therefore closing this bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 02 06:20:56 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2022 10:20:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42424 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIp1E-0002VF-Kt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2022 06:20:56 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:55570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIp1C-0002V0-FT for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2022 06:20:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=S37Jomv/cPH3WBIxhD3PFYK7YLFgtVspPMpj3T9/cb4=; b=jwIYH3ybYPiQo2tvZmVqaoxx7R YPs6ge+y6t7blL5zjbVx54RWwXZB9QaruscfAQKT2XUMudu1vr8IA+nDfYzXMcvybJK3RkPeC2HQc f/dWPntiFXFwUj8XPIyycK4CxGGESQ5mUpgqEBw57RYmQ1A7/vRVfF+6pz/9jMB+h1D4=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oIp14-00077r-K1 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2022 12:20:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 12:20:46 +0200 Message-Id: <87wnbrymip.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #56870 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 56870 notabug close 56870 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 56870 notabug close 56870 quit From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: uzibalqa Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: Matt Armstrong , 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: uzibalqa Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165943649319926 (code B ref 56870); Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2022 10:34:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42441 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIpEi-0005BJ-V6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2022 06:34:53 -0400 Received: from mail-4318.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.18]:40763) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIpEd-0005B2-Li for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2022 06:34:50 -0400 Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:34:36 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=kg67c662ufhdbi4d6ymm2w3q4m.protonmail; t=1659436481; x=1659695681; bh=MshHEbnT/+9MqE0PJUjdbmNLYomWjNuChrmZXFOfsOM=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=cHSHes4uKuO0BOZLYzaC0AIlGk3rMmDKK5XpVErnWL7N35WfozSlh0lhUSWseNORt FSbvWPweeuhag06HRxlKx22Axk5dMstR6AvLBGZwRGitp4Mzrt3uqSYt7Pxx/mstJ5 /Ip00/HxNB90+E8enBbDiQ58e/wtkfX4qBQwbLpu/CgYCO3jpQZwHI18yWkulo9FlE CMuCUvZvUezmGVK1sqPu9SvnC4CJx809752CyCPHHWLkk08nr4yTNywfzTCcaJ+jVL KyngwF+jq9cmG9dyCIsi2VCm9UrdDDftJL9/FlPEo2a4htpT9spLNmP2O7uwtLaS2/ 1nWAZh0kCxVqQ== From: uzibalqa Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> Feedback-ID: 52887082:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 at 10:20 AM, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Matt Armstrong matt@rfc20.org writes: > > > b) When lisp level interfaces expect strings they generally say so, and > > the examples use quotes like "this". > > > > c) A bare all (without any quotes at all), is just a word, and not > > a Lisp level function or variable. > > > So I don't think there's anything to fix in Emacs here -- we sometimes > say "the symbol `all'" if there's an unusual amount of possible > confusion present -- and I'm therefore closing this bug report. I still think you should be explicit as with "this", and present users with= what they will actually use, 'this. It is not good to expect a users to spend hours reading in the hope that he= will eventually figure out that what is written in the documentation is no= t what you write in your code. And then figure out how to solve it. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: YE Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2022 10:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: Matt Armstrong , uzibalqa , 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: YE Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165952123014305 (code B ref 56870); Wed, 03 Aug 2022 10:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2022 10:07:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46182 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJBHR-0003ie-Tp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2022 06:07:10 -0400 Received: from out2.migadu.com ([188.165.223.204]:56876) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJBHO-0003iS-JZ for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2022 06:07:09 -0400 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ego.team; s=key1; t=1659521225; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=LK8MevfNhiXnxd/YiSJ/iuqsZP2WSE4DcI25XrLwF2U=; b=VNcAq7zsL+lnSf1HkLIOXVbRc6UPoJuQratxhcq0NJE0cXDeHeQmeMn5SRibaUoC8PxBux y0qLE2FyohtTIUW9Ajo2xiyqLUuFJheqDKkdVaVi+ZDeceZ+DlgzbF79/wQDkNnr9TO7pD /QRtqUAmbhhnJDTyxI0j1qWFS45BMMo= From: YE References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2022 13:07:02 +0300 In-Reply-To: <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Tue, 02 Aug 2022 12:20:41 +0200") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Migadu-Auth-User: ego.team X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > So I don't think there's anything to fix in Emacs here -- we sometimes > say "the symbol `all'" if there's an unusual amount of possible > confusion present -- and I'm therefore closing this bug report. I'd still suggest considering documentation improvement in this regard. Probably because I had the same confusion when started with Emacs, even after having read the whole manual. [Well, the info node `(elisp) Documentation Tips)' clarifies how to document symbols : > When a documentation string refers to a Lisp symbol, write it as it > would be printed (which usually means in lower case), surrounding > it with curved single quotes (=E2=80=98..=E2=80=99) But Emacs beginner users don't seem to be the target auditory of this page. And it still won't -- naturally -- explain how to _use_ such symbols.] One such possible place to adjust is the info node `(emacs) Examining'. Maybe replace 'fill-column' example with the one that accepts a documented symbol (f.i. 'default-justification', 'diff-refine', 'tab-always-complete') and use the symbol in the code below? Another: info node `(emacs) Init Syntax' could probably state more explicitly how to deal with the symbols. Or mention symbols documentation/usage at the end of the info node `(emacs) Variables', after the line "check the variable=E2=80=99s documenta= tion string to see what kind of value it expects". WDYT? From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Matt Armstrong Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2022 18:42:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: YE , Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: uzibalqa , 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.16595521168141 (code B ref 56870); Wed, 03 Aug 2022 18:42:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2022 18:41:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49951 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJJJc-00027F-8f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2022 14:41:56 -0400 Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.194]:45989) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJJJX-00026x-4N for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2022 14:41:55 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96B4B40005; Wed, 3 Aug 2022 18:41:42 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1659552104; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=F+kIMMFofqW++pzVJwezOuRoDTk+D5encyFxVfmRAQ0=; b=Zdw2u6NI5hJ+LKB2JOiPvSOY9Q2+BEUw7quGV6/iLlDuWVkR1jBQsWUMh5g2TQb0GL/ef9 1zi9OcABBQJ72Pq2NUXpnviVkRRAjRbHOC1Tzf6a8BDnE2Qg4xnZGPmDIz2QLCCanRRqbO 1RUguSKyG2+F5OvDS5+SYAT7AZZpmjdFOGG9f9KEB+a4+blUpFVhdGLSRAtYdxt1AJDhG+ Zv74Ul0ygZE0rR90Hrc5IxrSavVwaExyUn3sgxzcmFbD5WaqU+QnWO40zgbKC6Z/qc/0PZ DX9TnQBRf350DpMaljG0omxk5b5A/cGX2nXpxnvBs7+pU/BtoYYeXsPU9Gd1QA== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1oJJJL-0020M7-2S; Wed, 03 Aug 2022 11:41:39 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong In-Reply-To: References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2022 11:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: <87sfmd2mqk.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: YE writes: >> So I don't think there's anything to fix in Emacs here -- we sometimes >> say "the symbol `all'" if there's an unusual amount of possible >> confusion present -- and I'm therefore closing this bug [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [217.70.183.194 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [217.70.183.194 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders 2.0 URI_DOTEDU Has .edu URI X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) YE writes: >> So I don't think there's anything to fix in Emacs here -- we sometimes >> say "the symbol `all'" if there's an unusual amount of possible >> confusion present -- and I'm therefore closing this bug report. > > I'd still suggest considering documentation improvement in this regard. > Probably because I had the same confusion when started with Emacs, even > after having read the whole manual. > > [Well, the info node `(elisp) Documentation Tips)' clarifies how to > document symbols : >> When a documentation string refers to a Lisp symbol, write it as it >> would be printed (which usually means in lower case), surrounding >> it with curved single quotes (=E2=80=98..=E2=80=99) > But Emacs beginner users don't seem to be the target auditory of this > page. And it still won't -- naturally -- explain how to _use_ such > symbols.] > > One such possible place to adjust is the info node `(emacs) Examining'. > Maybe replace 'fill-column' example with the one that accepts a > documented symbol (f.i. 'default-justification', 'diff-refine', > 'tab-always-complete') and use the symbol in the code below? > > Another: info node `(emacs) Init Syntax' could probably state more > explicitly how to deal with the symbols. > > Or mention symbols documentation/usage at the end of the info node > `(emacs) Variables', after the line "check the variable=E2=80=99s documen= tation > string to see what kind of value it expects". > > WDYT? People learn in different ways, so perhaps we should do all of those things? I think improving the various manuals is always a good idea. The hard part is finding and encouraging people to contribute the work! :-) I think the maintainers are quite receptive to improvements like this. Another thing to keep in mind: most of the common languages these days do not have symbols, so the very concept might be unfamiliar to new users. Another place that might improve is "An Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" (https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/eintr.html). In my opinion, it could do a better job explaining what a symbol is, how to express them in code, quote them, how they are often used as "magic values", etc. It talks about them in context with "atoms" but that is fairly esoteric. FWIW I find that the classic book "A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computaton" does a great job explaining what a symbol is. It introduces the idea of a symbol as the second fundamental concept of the language, in the first chapter, right after functions. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf Turning back to Emacs' help system, I wonder if it could be made more clear that all of these quoted "things" in help text are intended to be lisp symbols. Wild idea: always turn them into links. An arbitrary `foo' that isn't a function or variable would link to a synthetic help page explaining that it is a symbol, how it might appear in lisp code, link to an appropriate manual, etc. Perhaps this would be too noisy... From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: carlmarcos@tutanota.com Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2022 18:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Matt Armstrong Cc: YE , uzibalqa , Lars Ingebrigtsen , 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.16595526549199 (code B ref 56870); Wed, 03 Aug 2022 18:51:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2022 18:50:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49967 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJJSH-0002OI-Vt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2022 14:50:54 -0400 Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:36600) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJJSF-0002O3-0P for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2022 14:50:52 -0400 Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FBBFBF96C; Wed, 3 Aug 2022 18:50:44 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1659552644; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=Ibi0Lg+9737UuCHPRVP5yUp24U0ZAs5oIHniFamvbf4=; b=ndFLc9ZbsqdvDx6hxAkv1TUQB6xsdQJzgBBUOyFjlpHYcvrwAPvRCbsI9lIxiejR vwyor4OxA6G2/8h7+IMGJLgB+nizpkiVn39rI5Xh0temEHw9q8Sl1pDYSaxjLcqf61X u/oZbZdQeL0aRi0954Y0PJyhZE8OwdS8zhaI4wN97IlYaaZCW6QxgrppgU4eXHi3oBD 3itWSKmQWXiefNSqvj63ob6BZIqkZULmJMrDTdsVM7KJoEiL8gmIn6eNcoRUEMCz27j bT0nA6ZGBAJX/hLANGbQlx3qMeIA5+uttg8nFOpdUY1IhoSYt9dQHIoe1s2cif75EhK pLW74v6ePg== Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2022 20:50:44 +0200 (CEST) From: carlmarcos@tutanota.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87sfmd2mqk.fsf@rfc20.org> References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> <87sfmd2mqk.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Aug 3, 2022, 18:41 by matt@rfc20.org: > YE writes: > >>> So I don't think there's anything to fix in Emacs here -- we sometimes >>> say "the symbol `all'" if there's an unusual amount of possible >>> confusion present -- and I'm therefore closing this bug report. >>> >> >> I'd still suggest considering documentation improvement in this regard. >> Probably because I had the same confusion when started with Emacs, even >> after having read the whole manual. >> >> [Well, the info node `(elisp) Documentation Tips)' clarifies how to >> document symbols : >> >>> When a documentation string refers to a Lisp symbol, write it as it >>> would be printed (which usually means in lower case), surrounding >>> it with curved single quotes (=E2=80=98..=E2=80=99) >>> >> But Emacs beginner users don't seem to be the target auditory of this >> page. And it still won't -- naturally -- explain how to _use_ such >> symbols.] >> >> One such possible place to adjust is the info node `(emacs) Examining'. >> Maybe replace 'fill-column' example with the one that accepts a >> documented symbol (f.i. 'default-justification', 'diff-refine', >> 'tab-always-complete') and use the symbol in the code below? >> >> Another: info node `(emacs) Init Syntax' could probably state more >> explicitly how to deal with the symbols. >> >> Or mention symbols documentation/usage at the end of the info node >> `(emacs) Variables', after the line "check the variable=E2=80=99s docume= ntation >> string to see what kind of value it expects". >> >> WDYT? >> > > People learn in different ways, so perhaps we should do all of those > things? > > I think improving the various manuals is always a good idea. The hard > part is finding and encouraging people to contribute the work! :-) I > think the maintainers are quite receptive to improvements like this. > I completely disagree.=C2=A0 The experience with maintainers has shown how = unreceptive they often get towards improvements like this.=C2=A0 Lars thought there isn= 't anything to fix in Emacs and decided to close this bug report. > Another thing to keep in mind: most of the common languages these days > do not have symbols, so the very concept might be unfamiliar to new > users. > > Another place that might improve is "An Introduction to Programming in > Emacs Lisp" > (https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/eintr.html). In my > opinion, it could do a better job explaining what a symbol is, how to > express them in code, quote them, how they are often used as "magic > values", etc. It talks about them in context with "atoms" but that is > fairly esoteric. > > FWIW I find that the classic book "A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic > Computaton" does a great job explaining what a symbol is. It introduces > the idea of a symbol as the second fundamental concept of the language, > in the first chapter, right after functions. > > https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf > > Turning back to Emacs' help system, I wonder if it could be made more > clear that all of these quoted "things" in help text are intended to be > lisp symbols. Wild idea: always turn them into links. An arbitrary > `foo' that isn't a function or variable would link to a synthetic help > page explaining that it is a symbol, how it might appear in lisp code, > link to an appropriate manual, etc. Perhaps this would be too noisy... > From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation References: Resent-From: YE Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 16:07:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Matt Armstrong Cc: yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: YE Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.1659629203760 (code B ref 56870); Thu, 04 Aug 2022 16:07:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Aug 2022 16:06:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54457 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJdMx-0000CC-8z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 12:06:43 -0400 Received: from out0.migadu.com ([94.23.1.103]:59168) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJdMu-0000C2-Kr for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 12:06:42 -0400 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ego.team; s=key1; t=1659629198; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to; bh=anNGSR2Pw/FWyF2CrbgfbaOZdwHNTSKviJH+K5oa5y8=; b=Ty3UN75AKhKL264OxLmXGY+nuHBJRDSQ7E9yewXDL3yaE3XpetyghyAd8uyemLNeYWQPLZ WxBte3/kQKY/c5k7B1AphMjxBR5IZ5AwRWkqLRxhiFL7WTpvDo58wRq6TtliQPr4Q4ftmK uoC6nv/Fdf/7SuXa/ZzQr2lRCdQg8QA= From: YE In-Reply-To: <87sfmd2mqk.fsf@rfc20.org> (message from Matt Armstrong on Wed, 03 Aug 2022 11:41:39 -0700) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 19:06:36 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Migadu-Auth-User: ego.team X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain My take on the 'Init File' docs improvement is attached. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Expand-Init-File-documentation-in-Emacs-manual.patch Content-Description: Expand Init File docs >From d83fd0b706e60e321be695ab7d00ef7d1746258d Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: YugaEgo Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2022 18:45:49 +0300 Subject: [PATCH] Expand Init File documentation in Emacs manual * doc/emacs/custom.texi (Init Syntax): Add 'Other Lisp symbols' item. Expand 'True' and 'False' items docs. Add indexes. (Init Examples): Mention doc strings convention for symbols. (Bug#56870) --- doc/emacs/custom.texi | 26 +++++++++++++++++++++++--- 1 file changed, 23 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/emacs/custom.texi b/doc/emacs/custom.texi index 6ed43bcb79..e9b65b66ce 100644 --- a/doc/emacs/custom.texi +++ b/doc/emacs/custom.texi @@ -2442,13 +2442,31 @@ Init Syntax keys which send non-@acronym{ASCII} characters. @item True: -@code{t} stands for ``true''. +@cindex @code{t} +@cindex true +@cindex boolean +The special symbol @code{t} stands for ``true''. @xref{Constant +Variables,,, elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}. @item False: -@code{nil} stands for ``false''. +@cindex @code{nil} +@cindex false +@cindex boolean +The special symbol @code{nil} stands for ``false''. @xref{Constant +Variables,,, elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}). + +@item Other Lisp symbols: +@cindex Lisp symbol syntax +@cindex symbol syntax +Write a single-quote (@code{'}) followed by the symbol name +(@pxref{Symbols,,, elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}). Note +that documentation strings refer to symbols by their names only, +without the single-quote (@pxref{Documentation Tips,,, elisp, The +Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}). @item Other Lisp objects: @cindex Lisp object syntax +@cindex object syntax Write a single-quote (@code{'}) followed by the Lisp object you want. @end table @@ -2515,7 +2533,9 @@ Init Examples Note that @code{text-mode} is used because it is the command for entering Text mode. The single-quote before it makes the symbol a constant; otherwise, @code{text-mode} would be treated as a variable -name. +name. By convention, documentation strings refer to symbol arguments +by their names, without the single-quote (@pxref{Documentation Tips,,, +elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}). @need 1500 @item -- 2.34.1 --=-=-=-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 16:42:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: YE Cc: matt@rfc20.org, yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.16596312844571 (code B ref 56870); Thu, 04 Aug 2022 16:42:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Aug 2022 16:41:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54515 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJduW-0001Bf-9o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 12:41:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56724) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJduS-0001BP-0Q for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 12:41:23 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45404) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oJduL-0002Ym-JP; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 12:41:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=SC+vwatzmt+52lbIxnLnSREdnVidnjO38wLyCpmFEyM=; b=N4FYFoj93D+l tF64zH1tFEXr3i4nNgmZzW4TrfsLTN2EU/IH0ZU9FyjdFv0E0+sHx2sFWvuZqGyJd5V6BuK5JVpug e6PgJ6DvAg2wdkiRTPv0zn7KlNkcHthOG4LgwWla3GgC2pkj/GuzmekYs+KiKQ5SiCuulwtXAVEw/ bKsQEGEpNlhtqZ/J68jlLeqqOiHHyiXvjDy+5xfVo1ltJgCor2NXxRZ6CdY/xS4cBRB7xGJBwr0vB fbYolDV6b65F6fsw92FM4tzI2LC1WuOswr/ALegTIvmR5A+elJh1usgReWxj3d3bvi1KEqJvbuPW8 vgEHA+hovqhiXO4jVdYO+g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2157 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oJduJ-0006Fl-W8; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 12:41:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 19:41:06 +0300 Message-Id: <83czdg2c7x.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 19:06:36 +0300 > From: YE via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > My take on the 'Init File' docs improvement is attached. Thanks. However, this basically adds to the Emacs manual stuff whose place is in the ELisp manual. So I'm not sure we should start on this slippery slope. Users who need to write complex Lisp in their init files need to read the ELisp manual anyway. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Matt Armstrong Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 17:10:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: carlmarcos@tutanota.com Cc: YE , uzibalqa , Lars Ingebrigtsen , 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165963298515819 (code B ref 56870); Thu, 04 Aug 2022 17:10:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Aug 2022 17:09:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54557 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJeLx-000474-25 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 13:09:45 -0400 Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.198]:34051) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJeLu-00046m-4u for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 13:09:44 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C3F0BC0003; Thu, 4 Aug 2022 17:09:33 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1659632975; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=GPQusSi+XYroyvm/SKNyZ5NOFLjFgE6kV41yORTcnf8=; b=QDHmvl9dWqr9+5Y5UQmMO+698lbi7P6IdHawCDLqiEcVJV24IbER2Q6rRUZyhx9qXqrVkG gpaUFI+1gh5jb145C/iRbr+i9XCbwgQG0TacW1b40VgDARW0NYZ21Q+8Wa4nPobyfiSfzS mcNNZaNxNiu9joVnQi+QqEYJm2HTOJQlQA6nkPlVOJRVi8xpWXxzl5jxej76xm77jmGVLN K03NPzqSCbJHvqubsGOAWcyunOuOy+dOriFBoO/jF8XTkoQ5ubytORoYCDZNqhNlOuHoHb I/MrHV4zD7i7L3iq7kRRuHKCg9ygAdJ5eN+WIlQ473UjM4SS/eY7LTC5H7LzHQ== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1oJeLi-000DBQ-2m; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 10:09:30 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong In-Reply-To: References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> <87sfmd2mqk.fsf@rfc20.org> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 10:09:30 -0700 Message-ID: <878ro4rl4l.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) carlmarcos@tutanota.com writes: > Aug 3, 2022, 18:41 by matt@rfc20.org: > >> I think the maintainers are quite receptive to improvements like >> this. > > I completely disagree.=C2=A0 The experience with maintainers has shown how > unreceptive they often get towards improvements like this.=C2=A0 Lars > thought there isn't anything to fix in Emacs and decided to close this > bug report. I think reasonable people can disagree about what is and is not a problem, is or is not an improvement, or even misunderstand eachother entirely. Sometimes patience and additional explanations are the way to move forward. In this case, I agree with Lars that the company-dabbrev docstring is consistent with Emacs' usual way of writing docstrings. I don't actually see a clear way to improve the one docstring in isolation without it becoming inconsistent with the rest of Emacs. And so, I would expect any improvement here to involve some discussion, since the path forward isn't obvious. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Matt Armstrong Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 17:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Eli Zaretskii , YE Cc: yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165963534120854 (code B ref 56870); Thu, 04 Aug 2022 17:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Aug 2022 17:49:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54823 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJexw-0005QG-Ne for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 13:49:01 -0400 Received: from relay9-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.199]:40157) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJexu-0005Q3-Bc for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 13:48:59 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: matt@rfc20.org) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F30FFF804; Thu, 4 Aug 2022 17:48:49 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rfc20.org; s=gm1; t=1659635332; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=m0YoYzQ00r4lsKKL/5MO3g90T1DMsr7kLJeZo8pmANo=; b=oRu7Jks/xA/P5SOd3Qyqouhs29eWS82aRyI3AMBtyKxwc55dK7AnJyBlbT3NIvKhtNvQlZ wClYUN9d7+QUlbIMVNyRlbNXPVMj3AvpWRtuKh5z2Xj98wGz+gJD8KT/TtBXJYNMWKGe2L 2MeolEkDiORAp0dxVp095aSFRjViICtBt5vsUkmenvHF2RUQ3vGi56wlKIH96iRjLjqtJL 8e1VdAn6aQHy7W4HVgWKD6mC0J0xqEWJJdxlDn9fy4GBQJWh/5PGrIRpSVAgJXeaFz6ZCM b367QzrnX3tluaMnkL9+uXSB56BDAmWEoHgCyAmnMC9E+LxUjei9LN7SwC+18g== Received: from matt by naz with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1oJexj-000DKA-1B; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 10:48:47 -0700 From: Matt Armstrong In-Reply-To: <83czdg2c7x.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83czdg2c7x.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 10:48:47 -0700 Message-ID: <87zggjrjb4.fsf@rfc20.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Cc: yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 19:06:36 +0300 >> From: YE via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, >> the Swiss army knife of text editors" >> >> My take on the 'Init File' docs improvement is attached. > > Thanks. However, this basically adds to the Emacs manual stuff whose > place is in the ELisp manual. So I'm not sure we should start on this > slippery slope. Users who need to write complex Lisp in their init > files need to read the ELisp manual anyway. Eli, perhaps a single link to the ELisp manual near the beginning of "(emacs) Init Syntax" would be acceptable? The section is describing a small subset of lisp, so I think such a link would be useful there. (Way back when I was first learning Emacs it took me quite a while before I realized that the ELisp manual existed at all.) I tend to agree with you that "(emacs) Init Syntax" isn't a great place to describe how various lisp constructs appear in help text, since it its focus is how to write lisp code. I would think that belongs somewhere under "(emacs) Help". From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 18:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Matt Armstrong Cc: yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165963754124541 (code B ref 56870); Thu, 04 Aug 2022 18:26:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Aug 2022 18:25:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54871 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJfXR-0006Nk-7r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 14:25:41 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49552) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJfXO-0006NV-L6 for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 14:25:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:47584) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oJfXG-0002ho-N8; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 14:25:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=42yYQZv4D4IaS/o0Xza0EaMRcQlhUss2fvdCDBnO67M=; b=lICJ7NmcCFsN XXZbOGEsr/hE2e8yDZB7udVQn1jNV/WB+GPmZiEn/HOlxj89Uw2+hI3JzxuntAllCEHhk5613FZye qPTHckHMIi44FpiOanGTKxZBV4VARD07XJn15g52yYfUaBteFvubEYEAysMXTqSlHp6oDszLEEotV VD9i1XTjqMdWMm2gLHbQ1V7gWcSF2dp2MHgC1CZM4FX/Y2yqPMsK+u9+TMNLXQsnFQLtBCXW7kNO5 L9Bc0Tmoftk90XCSAXKezZzAMcNy9bEl4CXIk/X++JyJHZWg7d/IF685CXa5zDKkJsKREDIduBTdT VvQunAf4Gcu3XopO12wdBA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4536 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oJfXD-0000h7-BM; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 14:25:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 21:25:24 +0300 Message-Id: <83zggj27e3.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <87zggjrjb4.fsf@rfc20.org> (message from Matt Armstrong on Thu, 04 Aug 2022 10:48:47 -0700) References: <83czdg2c7x.fsf@gnu.org> <87zggjrjb4.fsf@rfc20.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Matt Armstrong > Cc: yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 10:48:47 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> Cc: yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org > >> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 19:06:36 +0300 > >> From: YE via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > >> the Swiss army knife of text editors" > >> > >> My take on the 'Init File' docs improvement is attached. > > > > Thanks. However, this basically adds to the Emacs manual stuff whose > > place is in the ELisp manual. So I'm not sure we should start on this > > slippery slope. Users who need to write complex Lisp in their init > > files need to read the ELisp manual anyway. > > Eli, perhaps a single link to the ELisp manual near the beginning of > "(emacs) Init Syntax" would be acceptable? Yes, that's a better idea. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: carlmarcos@tutanota.com Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 22:00:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Matt Armstrong Cc: YE , uzibalqa , Lars Ingebrigtsen , 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.16596503776413 (code B ref 56870); Thu, 04 Aug 2022 22:00:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Aug 2022 21:59:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55233 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJisS-0001fN-Lo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 17:59:37 -0400 Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:42798) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJisO-0001f5-6N for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2022 17:59:35 -0400 Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58DDFBF8D3; Thu, 4 Aug 2022 21:59:25 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1659650365; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=Tg1asObEYxa9JKauB7pbekSIqeJZssTDQs1dhRzTw54=; b=QTdV2pG4S4RHq8XkiT7uxm9WkPfdKVzsxD0rsCvjfB95+RT7knh1KPjE81oklzNs HsGVETRmIgoIId70/3TPJK+IQdWzW7Y/RbdwFEAcBNL4zvBggkUD5hVY4O9B9mp+9Pg 2CgZC8Jdi8T4dUnN7sgVhHZ/ZKXbBV849SAhIAlQetYYTdJXpPqz408akJwZ1aE7WQK AEzmSXax5hldayaWQNrzPAHWgmb1lE7OXPzJWgqUaPVM97PtrfZlI1KMR/jRcxfRGmz 42/hxRr2YBgHCgU8k7mRCJbKK8e7UZ+wMqZ8irL32pycxbDKN+2qwJEyr6t0XCqhl48 arwkNvC1vA== Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2022 23:59:25 +0200 (CEST) From: carlmarcos@tutanota.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <878ro4rl4l.fsf@rfc20.org-N8dpYwc----2> References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> <87sfmd2mqk.fsf@rfc20.org> <878ro4rl4l.fsf@rfc20.org-N8dpYwc----2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Aug 4, 2022, 17:09 by matt@rfc20.org: > carlmarcos@tutanota.com writes: > >> Aug 3, 2022, 18:41 by matt@rfc20.org: >> >>> I think the maintainers are quite receptive to improvements like >>> this. >>> >> >> I completely disagree.=C2=A0 The experience with maintainers has shown h= ow >> unreceptive they often get towards improvements like this.=C2=A0 Lars >> thought there isn't anything to fix in Emacs and decided to close this >> bug report. >> > > I think reasonable people can disagree about what is and is not a > problem, is or is not an improvement, or even misunderstand eachother > entirely. Sometimes patience and additional explanations are the way to > move forward. > > In this case, I agree with Lars that the company-dabbrev docstring is > consistent with Emacs' usual way of writing docstrings. I don't > actually see a clear way to improve the one docstring in isolation > without it becoming inconsistent with the rest of Emacs. And so, I > would expect any improvement here to involve some discussion, since the > path forward isn't obvious. > Sure.=C2=A0 But I found too much eagerness to close the discussion.=C2=A0 M= any are putting too much focus on consistency, when the aim should really be on equipping users with what = is actually required=C2=A0=20 for them to write code that works.=C2=A0 Rather than rely on assumptions th= at old timers consider of minor importance.=C2=A0 Because in the end it is code that works which counts.=C2= =A0 The less one tortures people, the better. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation References: Resent-From: YE Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 09:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: matt@rfc20.org, yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: YE Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165969064627380 (code B ref 56870); Fri, 05 Aug 2022 09:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Aug 2022 09:10:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56165 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJtLx-00077Y-Na for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 05:10:46 -0400 Received: from out0.migadu.com ([94.23.1.103]:11582) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJtLu-00077O-5R for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 05:10:44 -0400 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ego.team; s=key1; t=1659690640; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to; bh=s7Fw2jJziNLMC/qrmVW5Ip12QEWz4N5otyV3PjqkRfg=; b=Gob1JUsJtWteZuNQW0hqdjrz0ptb/QK5g1zhi3KEyiS+jv37G91NUu6M7FuLU6JUQb8nP+ YlgOnEmB36mzlZf0G3nArdbLC5lRvcRXxQIWSAXK7UimW4OuBDOwl811cCaYT8aB6aVHrw Excvly42HwaCGlpCk7zsR6OWwqzaQWg= From: YE In-Reply-To: <83czdg2c7x.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Thu, 04 Aug 2022 19:41:06 +0300) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 12:10:33 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Migadu-Auth-User: ego.team X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> My take on the 'Init File' docs improvement is attached. > > Thanks. However, this basically adds to the Emacs manual stuff whose > place is in the ELisp manual. This patch clarifies _existing_ node of the Emacs manual: 1. Adds indexes. 2. Adds links to the ELisp manual for further reading. 3. Clarifies how to use _wide-spread_ symbols (extensively used by newbies). Which part _exactly_ you don't find suitable for the Emacs manual? Don't Symbols deserve the same attention as Numbers, Strings, Characters described extensively in `(emacs) Init Syntax'? Maybe, according to your point of view, this node should be removed from the Emacs manual altogether, (linking to the ELisp manual)? In my fresh memory, this part of the manual was one of the least helpful and the most confusing. So my (vanishing) hope was to contribute a little bit of improvement to it to help fellow beginner users, when one of the issues with it was articulated. Or should I submit a new bug report with the vague: `(emacs) Init File' is confusing and isn't instructive enough for the newbies? Many (if not most) of the beginners start tweaking Emacs via the init file, not Customize interface. So well-written beginner instructions on how to use init file is a _need_, not a whim. > So I'm not sure we should start on this > slippery slope. We start on the slippery slope when the reported issues aren't resolved. > Users who need to write complex Lisp in their init > files need to read the ELisp manual anyway. What part of the patch touches the "complex Lisp"? From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 11:10:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: YE Cc: matt@rfc20.org, larsi@gnus.org, uzibalqa@proton.me, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.16596977737813 (code B ref 56870); Fri, 05 Aug 2022 11:10:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Aug 2022 11:09:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56369 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJvCv-00021w-3z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 07:09:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50472) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJvCp-00021g-OO for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 07:09:31 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50064) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oJvCj-0008BT-5e; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 07:09:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=jaPt0wginXVjdsOeTsCebv20ZtAyEdbc/7nK6kz64g0=; b=mSSagcX/Hqdq EyO0E+D0wpSZiT9k49xgv2lJPRXfuS/+MMvAtjTRol1A7V1lDsENDbQlTHbOT+DFjMm5nNQKVs1NC LfuhJmaToLNhbQ7bcStg6a70cAfis6PK5/PGheF0oQoN5Lz5VDJce/3CTuY7fETATKCOPchr4Cmzt Gz9cTifFzzF/j2te7vUaZbIMmwAnQYzWy6QoFTSLn5i+QuoSotOdE9b2TyuoJfxHMU8XqZjCOIbv8 dLlpS43Es1U1g70MaxXXQN79IG/51seSV8udd0k18ALwvvMrz3n3bFrOxSda8Zv2cO1M2niB2A2pH iR3kiXFey05IvPA47z6VrQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2371 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oJvCi-0004fg-Ii; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 07:09:20 -0400 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 14:09:17 +0300 Message-Id: <83a68j0wwy.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from YE on Fri, 05 Aug 2022 12:10:33 +0300) References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: YE > Cc: yet@ego.team, matt@rfc20.org, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, > 56870@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 12:10:33 +0300 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Thanks. However, this basically adds to the Emacs manual stuff whose > > place is in the ELisp manual. > > This patch clarifies _existing_ node of the Emacs manual: > 1. Adds indexes. > 2. Adds links to the ELisp manual for further reading. > 3. Clarifies how to use _wide-spread_ symbols (extensively used by newbies). > > Which part _exactly_ you don't find suitable for the Emacs manual? All of it. You explain some basics of Emacs Lisp, which any user who is serious about customizing his/her Emacs should already know about, by reading the relevant parts of the ELisp manual. It goes without saying that this node of the Emacs manual is intentionally incomplete, but making it complete would mean we'd need to repeat a significant portion of text that is already in the ELisp manual, because the missing bits are about Emacs Lisp, not about anything special to the init files. > Don't Symbols deserve the same attention as Numbers, Strings, > Characters described extensively in `(emacs) Init Syntax'? No, I don't think so. And this is a slippery slope anyway, because there's more about Lisp objects than just telling what you suggest to tell. > Maybe, according to your point of view, this node should be removed from > the Emacs manual altogether, (linking to the ELisp manual)? That'd be too drastic, IMO. Simple customizations don't need detailed knowledge of Lisp, and the node attempts to strike a balance between being useful to beginners and including too much of ELisp. > Or should I submit a new bug report with the vague: `(emacs) Init File' > is confusing and isn't instructive enough for the newbies? If you explain clearly enough what is confusing in that node, we could try making it less confusing and more instructive, yes. > > So I'm not sure we should start on this > > slippery slope. > > We start on the slippery slope when the reported issues aren't resolved. That's a different slippery slope. And I disagree that issues aren't resolved. You might think they aren't, because your opinions aren't accepted, but we don't promise we will accept any opinion without considering its advantages and disadvantages. > > Users who need to write complex Lisp in their init > > files need to read the ELisp manual anyway. > > What part of the patch touches the "complex Lisp"? This one, for example: +@item Other Lisp symbols: +@cindex Lisp symbol syntax +@cindex symbol syntax +Write a single-quote (@code{'}) followed by the symbol name +(@pxref{Symbols,,, elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}). Note +that documentation strings refer to symbols by their names only, +without the single-quote (@pxref{Documentation Tips,,, elisp, The +Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}). Why does this text have to talk about doc strings, and what does it have to do with the syntax of the init file? And the node to which you refer is a large and complex node, which is too much for simple customizations that Init Syntax intends to cover. From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: carlmarcos@tutanota.com Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 11:37:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: matt@rfc20.org, YE , uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.165969940318598 (code B ref 56870); Fri, 05 Aug 2022 11:37:02 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Aug 2022 11:36:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56382 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJvdD-0004pu-48 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 07:36:43 -0400 Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:47904) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oJvdB-0004pd-5r for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2022 07:36:41 -0400 Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A01FBF81D; Fri, 5 Aug 2022 11:36:35 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1659699395; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=/dAKM5HheUSrnMbADbUenB2iHQx4kFQ9N4JSTJiy9IA=; b=hOn50G1XLMeVE7ziHqy+lKiqpmZlKKXNRKj9jIKZZ7clctDDyFxm9eg79T4EWcLY KWY38Ju3zWeLp2D9y2r7GZapFVrPegJ1+OOcnQ5CGpXlf7RosVl4E6mLjTPCgranKpX yMFaOh5HX7lK68z6dXH4Cfv4Z5QDVB8EsGfZc/7XceqTsJ4n2ILNApiFyo9DmoY+lAr +dXyQaqohnX3HWb5rMdVM5HmIEusnLN5v5dCqHVFmgWVZ1+djn3LfHzGTcCO5YVlAlF Uipf6+3otD5xtRQ7SgTMCV/uE6SVo3l2HJ/1kC0FbPN6CCz2Uqx0oLkF6fu4Lbsq9jU KVHBZ5AquA== Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2022 13:36:35 +0200 (CEST) From: carlmarcos@tutanota.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83a68j0wwy.fsf@gnu.org> References: <878ro74pz5.fsf@rfc20.org> <87y1w7ymiu.fsf@gnus.org> <87sfmd2mqk.fsf@rfc20.org> <83czdg2c7x.fsf@gnu.org> <83a68j0wwy.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Aug 5, 2022, 11:09 by eliz@gnu.org: >> From: YE >> Cc: yet@ego.team, matt@rfc20.org, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, >> 56870@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2022 12:10:33 +0300 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> > Thanks. However, this basically adds to the Emacs manual stuff whose >> > place is in the ELisp manual. >> >> This patch clarifies _existing_ node of the Emacs manual: >> 1. Adds indexes. >> 2. Adds links to the ELisp manual for further reading. >> 3. Clarifies how to use _wide-spread_ symbols (extensively used by newbi= es). >> >> Which part _exactly_ you don't find suitable for the Emacs manual? >> > > All of it. You explain some basics of Emacs Lisp, which any user who > is serious about customizing his/her Emacs should already know about, > by reading the relevant parts of the ELisp manual. > > It goes without saying that this node of the Emacs manual is > intentionally incomplete, but making it complete would mean we'd need > to repeat a significant portion of text that is already in the ELisp > manual, because the missing bits are about Emacs Lisp, not about > anything special to the init files. > >> Don't Symbols deserve the same attention as Numbers, Strings, >> Characters described extensively in `(emacs) Init Syntax'? >> > > No, I don't think so. And this is a slippery slope anyway, because > there's more about Lisp objects than just telling what you suggest to > tell. > The docstring should mention that variable settings use symbol arguments.= =C2=A0=20 >> Maybe, according to your point of view, this node should be removed from >> the Emacs manual altogether, (linking to the ELisp manual)? >> > > That'd be too drastic, IMO. Simple customizations don't need detailed > knowledge of Lisp, and the node attempts to strike a balance between > being useful to beginners and including too much of ELisp. > >> Or should I submit a new bug report with the vague: `(emacs) Init File' >> is confusing and isn't instructive enough for the newbies? >> > > If you explain clearly enough what is confusing in that node, we could > try making it less confusing and more instructive, yes. > >> > So I'm not sure we should start on this >> > slippery slope. >> >> We start on the slippery slope when the reported issues aren't resolved. >> > > That's a different slippery slope. > > And I disagree that issues aren't resolved. You might think they > aren't, because your opinions aren't accepted, but we don't promise we > will accept any opinion without considering its advantages and > disadvantages. > >> > Users who need to write complex Lisp in their init >> > files need to read the ELisp manual anyway. >> >> What part of the patch touches the "complex Lisp"? >> > > This one, for example: > > +@item Other Lisp symbols: > +@cindex Lisp symbol syntax > +@cindex symbol syntax > +Write a single-quote (@code{'}) followed by the symbol name > +(@pxref{Symbols,,, elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}). Note > +that documentation strings refer to symbols by their names only, > +without the single-quote (@pxref{Documentation Tips,,, elisp, The > +Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}). > > Why does this text have to talk about doc strings, and what does it > have to do with the syntax of the init file? And the node to which > you refer is a large and complex node, which is too much for simple > customizations that Init Syntax intends to cover. > From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation References: Resent-From: YE Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 12:43:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: matt@rfc20.org, yet@ego.team, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, 56870@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: YE Received: via spool by 56870-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56870.16597897412747 (code B ref 56870); Sat, 06 Aug 2022 12:43:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Aug 2022 12:42:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32983 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKJ8H-0000iE-BS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Aug 2022 08:42:21 -0400 Received: from out1.migadu.com ([91.121.223.63]:11210) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKJ8E-0000i3-Cn for 56870@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Aug 2022 08:42:20 -0400 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ego.team; s=key1; t=1659789737; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to; bh=+khSMlGZvhb462BzluOhkmXIZU4r5pzfus/PW71INkA=; b=WHsF/qnziwI2hapGNHhv7ZhX9N8azS1MbzO2ItCVmroGiCrOkqkqG8o/fJyWnC3lKZqimI 7NJwWjZjidSsu04cFE4Uq1s9BvX2r6Drq42NXqlp/mJ352cRQj8FYpoUuSx0X+FvEmzgoQ Pf2P5GavT/fGPc1QA4qW4DltJr/edrY= From: YE In-Reply-To: <83a68j0wwy.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 05 Aug 2022 14:09:17 +0300) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 15:42:15 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Migadu-Auth-User: ego.team X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain >> Eli Zaretskii: >> From: YE >> Which part _exactly_ you don't find suitable for the Emacs manual? > > All of it. You explain some basics of Emacs Lisp, which any user who > is serious about customizing his/her Emacs should already know about, > by reading the relevant parts of the ELisp manual. >> Don't Symbols deserve the same attention as Numbers, Strings, >> Characters described extensively in `(emacs) Init Syntax'? > > No, I don't think so. And this is a slippery slope anyway, because > there's more about Lisp objects than just telling what you suggest to > tell. >> What part of the patch touches the "complex Lisp"? > > Why does this text have to talk about doc strings, and what does it > have to do with the syntax of the init file? And the node to which > you refer is a large and complex node, which is too much for simple > customizations that Init Syntax intends to cover. > Thank you for the detailed response. >> From: Matt Armstrong >> Eli, perhaps a single link to the ELisp manual near the beginning of >> "(emacs) Init Syntax" would be acceptable? > > Yes, that's a better idea. One more tiny patch is attached. It links 'Init Syntax' to the ELisp manual Introduction node. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Link-from-emacs-Init-Syntax-to-elisp-Introduction.patch Content-Description: Link from Init Syntax to ELisp Introduction >From 68a2732383e48096296da208215590c5afc62971 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: YugaEgo Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2022 15:20:09 +0300 Subject: [PATCH] Link from (emacs)Init Syntax to (elisp)Introduction * doc/emacs/custom.texi (Init Syntax): Link to the ELisp manual (Bug#56870) --- doc/emacs/custom.texi | 3 +++ 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+) diff --git a/doc/emacs/custom.texi b/doc/emacs/custom.texi index 6ed43bcb79..efaf0dfd38 100644 --- a/doc/emacs/custom.texi +++ b/doc/emacs/custom.texi @@ -2452,6 +2452,9 @@ Init Syntax Write a single-quote (@code{'}) followed by the Lisp object you want. @end table + For more information on the Emacs Lisp syntax, @pxref{Introduction,,, +elisp, The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual}. + @node Init Examples @subsection Init File Examples -- 2.34.1 --=-=-=-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:18:45 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56870: [PATCH] Re: bug#56870: company-dabbrev variable documentation Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 13:21:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56870 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: YE Cc: matt@rfc20.org, larsi@gnus.org, uzibalqa@proton.me, 56870-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56870-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D56870.165979202023237 (code D ref 56870); Sat, 06 Aug 2022 13:21:01 +0000 Received: (at 56870-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Aug 2022 13:20:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33056 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKJj1-00062i-PA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Aug 2022 09:20:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47048) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oKJj0-00062N-8Z for 56870-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Aug 2022 09:20:18 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36858) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKJit-0007qI-QS; Sat, 06 Aug 2022 09:20:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=SyOwSCQs6+sgNBv9gEKrvOSFE3Lp5Awx1/OUqH1pMJQ=; b=FmBN5Pa7FGMU ley3sgU9gQOBi5xO3iPI97GRqaRND3+oGkAP7hu3MrdVi/D9VOWamIzO0klTf47/do0nBS4JPbzUQ /IQpGkVMASrKvfM7O4fkP/hd3K0WHCFSH5q2C+QEyxs51QcTmzrWf4j2OipztX8oFQPZ9AIhUCFaB MA27yVtFfk/KsLjmKNLRnPNRUXnXOuXS71mEvmReczoLqI5Y9AQuHfomUTc1Dm9LRX0RrjMyFC229 //hfBvEDv5husYTkjybg+IDdWq/14bsSx88Q31nps1RKzzAL/yF53LtYn7b2E9L8PrBBqArUYupHW iC0Dk10IhknUzwYe3tv/8w==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3977 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oKJit-0003Q9-9r; Sat, 06 Aug 2022 09:20:11 -0400 Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 16:19:59 +0300 Message-Id: <831qttzeyo.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from YE on Sat, 06 Aug 2022 15:42:15 +0300) References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: YE > Cc: yet@ego.team, matt@rfc20.org, uzibalqa@proton.me, larsi@gnus.org, > 56870@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2022 15:42:15 +0300 > > Thank you for the detailed response. > > >> From: Matt Armstrong > >> Eli, perhaps a single link to the ELisp manual near the beginning of > >> "(emacs) Init Syntax" would be acceptable? > > > > Yes, that's a better idea. > > One more tiny patch is attached. > It links 'Init Syntax' to the ELisp manual Introduction node. Thanks, installed on the release branch, and closing the bug.