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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) (defvar foo 50) (defvaralias 'fill-column 'foo) --> Error "Cannot make an internal variable an alias" The error msg should show the name of the variable in question. But the real bug is that "internal variable" isn't clear/defined. Nor is it otherwise clear what the error message means or why it's an error to (apparently) try to alias a defvar defined in C to some other defvar. Searching the Elisp manual for "internal variable" shows only one occurrence, in node `Documentation Tips', where the term has a very different meaning: An internal variable or subroutine of a Lisp program might as well have a documentation string. Documentation strings take up very little space in a running Emacs. It's not clear what it means there either, but it's pretty clear that whatever meaning is intended there is unrelated to whatever meaning is intended in that error message. Please clean up the doc to make clear what's meant, in both cases. For a function defined in C and callable from Lisp we use the terms "primitive" and "built-in function". I haven't found a term for defvars (or defcustoms) that are defined in C. But certainly such variables are in no way "internal" to anything, AFAICT. They are defined in C; that's all. Furthermore, the presentation of `defvaralias' in the Elisp manual (node `Variable Aliases') says nothing about any restriction of which defvars it applies to - nothing about "internal variables", even under some other name. AFAICT. Secondarily, searching for "internal" in the Elisp manual takes you to node `Function Names' where the `--' convention for names of internal functions is presented. I haven't found any such presentation of `--' for names of "internal" variables. But presumably a variable name with `--' is internal in yet another sense (presumably the same sense as for "internal function"). Also secondarily, node `Tips for Defining' mentions variable names with `PREFIX-...' and `...-internal' as being "internal". Should that node also mention names with `--'? Also secondarily, node `Creating Buffer-Local' says this: For example, when a variable is used for internal purposes in a Lisp program which depends on having separate values in separate buffers Yet another use of "internal" for variables. My suggestion here is to simply remove the word "internal", or even "for internal purposes" - that adds nothing here and can only confuse. Just a suggestion. (There are of course multiple uses of "internal" in the docs, with differences in meaning according to the context. No problem there. This bug report is about mention of "internal" variables.) In GNU Emacs 28.1 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2022-04-21 built on AVALON Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19044 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.19044.1826) Configured using: 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation --without-compress-install CFLAGS=3D-O2' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS XPM ZLIB (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 01 13:03:52 2022 Received: (at 56863-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2022 17:03:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41523 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIYpb-0006AR-AK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:03:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41908) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oIYpR-00069x-2s for 56863-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:03:50 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54196) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oIYpK-0003n8-NS; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:03:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=YY3b942B7Z7pydESno0C+4M4zlX+luzJUQ3RRRmHE8M=; b=oQiVqWw8plCW EbPiFt//7fnsqr1cUSgjvbhu85ZQ8wIqQmnqcLGsWW3xWZeApI0cFMjauzIPcwQ045FEhJcMfoZdo bM9XFloLibnFnRj1qAm+rek+i5QXPHkMO9wTBJD2htzK2h2alOuJ+tiu51xp100aFmNJDBS8Hh4j+ vPDnEqF5C9Ln7cSYzeC+AAc2e5Nw8wv5ZNC1iMpf1Lte3/vtO9KsDZIAk67qmGDQJUnJ7lSpOq+f7 rMLvYVMYAypyy4L3ROTyVmK8dn9S1gnN5QwRKpogM11jppush3CCkMhjqxkOBzOLFAU6zKc1qDlyI ZS8rBLp4aexnmAgxAfI+Bg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4701 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oIYpK-00042D-53; Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:03:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 20:03:23 +0300 Message-Id: <83wnbr28x0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 31 Jul 2022 20:17:58 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#56863: 28.1; "internal variable" in doc References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 56863-done Cc: 56863-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 20:17:58 +0000 > > (defvar foo 50) > (defvaralias 'fill-column 'foo) > > --> Error "Cannot make an internal variable an alias" > > The error msg should show the name of the variable in question. I added the name to the message. > But the real bug is that "internal variable" isn't clear/defined. I made it say "built-in" instead of "internal". Thanks. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:26:11 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2022 11:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator