GNU bug report logs - #56215
Request for decluttering capability on mode-line keywords

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
To: Bug Gnu Emacs <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line keywords
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2022 15:08:52 +0200 (CEST)

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The mode-line is a very important section of a window.  But can be easily cluttered withnames of minor-modes, as well as by programming and hypertext language major-mode names.

For instance, loading an elisp file shows "Emacs-Lisp" in the made-line.  When in *scratch* the string "Lisp Interaction" shows up.  Because I use bold large font, it is easy for the mode-line to get cluttered.

As is often the case, emacs users hardly change the mode associated with the corresponding programming or hypertext language major-mode.  Most often, users work with minor-modes, meaning that people are aware that lisp programs use emacs-lisp major-mode, and C users are aware they are using c major-mode (although I find "C/*l" quite unnecessary).
Emacs package designers have the ability to display a mode-line name with the keyword-arg `:lighter'.  But the user has no way to remove the lighter from the mode-line.  Would like to request the capability for users to remove :lighter keywords, if they wish.  This would be particularly useful for those like me who usually have a dense list showing up in their mode-line.

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Message #8 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
To: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
Cc: 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:05:44 +1200

Hi Carl,

You might find the GNU ELPA package delight.el to be suitable.
See https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/DelightedModes for details.

There are other options as well, including these (and maybe
more besides):

https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/72194/454

Lars, I think this is a duplicate of bug#30978 ?


-Phil



On 2022-06-26 01:08, carlmarcos--- via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the 
Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote:
> The mode-line is a very important section of a window. But can be
> easily cluttered with
> names of minor-modes, as well as by programming and hypertext language
> major-mode names.
> 
> For instance, loading an elisp file shows "Emacs-Lisp" in the
> made-line. When in *scratch* the string "Lisp Interaction" shows up.
> Because I use bold large font, it is easy for the mode-line to get
> cluttered.
> 
> As is often the case, emacs users hardly change the mode associated
> with the corresponding programming or hypertext language major-mode.
> Most often, users work with minor-modes, meaning that people are aware
> that lisp programs use emacs-lisp major-mode, and C users are aware
> they are using c major-mode (although I find "C/*l" quite
> unnecessary).
> 
> Emacs package designers have the ability to display a mode-line name
> with the keyword-arg `:lighter'. But the user has no way to remove the
> lighter from the mode-line. Would like to request the capability for
> users to remove :lighter keywords, if they wish. This would be
> particularly useful for those like me who usually have a dense list
> showing up in their mode-line.

Message #11 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
To: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
Cc: 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 10:34:30 +0200 (CEST)

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Jun 26, 2022, 00:05 by psainty <at> orcon.net.nz:

> Hi Carl,
>
> You might find the GNU ELPA package delight.el to be suitable.
> See https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/DelightedModes for details.
>
> There are other options as well, including these (and maybe
> more besides):
>
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/72194/454
>

Because of the heap of packages that have been written, I would favour the capability to be included in the released version of emacs.  Besides being a request  that is not so obscure, `delight.el' <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/delight.git/plain/delight.el> breaks down for
`c-mode', `c++-mode', `php-mode', and possibly others. 

Besides, going through seven different implementations amounts to torture for users to decide.



> Lars, I think this is a duplicate of bug#30978 ?
>
>
> -Phil
>
>
>
> On 2022-06-26 01:08, carlmarcos--- via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote:
>
>> The mode-line is a very important section of a window. But can be
>> easily cluttered with
>> names of minor-modes, as well as by programming and hypertext language
>> major-mode names.
>>
>> For instance, loading an elisp file shows "Emacs-Lisp" in the
>> made-line. When in *scratch* the string "Lisp Interaction" shows up.
>> Because I use bold large font, it is easy for the mode-line to get
>> cluttered.
>>
>> As is often the case, emacs users hardly change the mode associated
>> with the corresponding programming or hypertext language major-mode.
>> Most often, users work with minor-modes, meaning that people are aware
>> that lisp programs use emacs-lisp major-mode, and C users are aware
>> they are using c major-mode (although I find "C/*l" quite
>> unnecessary).
>>
>> Emacs package designers have the ability to display a mode-line name
>> with the keyword-arg `:lighter'. But the user has no way to remove the
>> lighter from the mode-line. Would like to request the capability for
>> users to remove :lighter keywords, if they wish. This would be
>> particularly useful for those like me who usually have a dense list
>> showing up in their mode-line.
>>

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Message #14 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
To: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
Cc: 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 21:28:07 +1200

On 2022-06-26 20:34, carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com wrote:
> Besides being a request that is not so obscure, `delight.el'
> breaks down for
> `c-mode', `c++-mode', `php-mode', and possibly others.

Yes, and I'd like to revisit bug#2034 at some point to resolve
that; but FYI the documented workaround that you've seen already
would suit your needs, because you already stated that you don't
want suffixes like "/*l" added to the mode line for those modes.

Message #17 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
To: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
Cc: 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:48:00 +0200 (CEST)

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Jun 26, 2022, 09:28 by psainty <at> orcon.net.nz:

> On 2022-06-26 20:34, carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com wrote:
>
>> Besides being a request that is not so obscure, `delight.el'
>> breaks down for
>> `c-mode', `c++-mode', `php-mode', and possibly others.
>>
>
> Yes, and I'd like to revisit bug#2034 at some point to resolve
> that; but FYI the documented workaround that you've seen already
> would suit your needs, because you already stated that you don't
> want suffixes like "/*l" added to the mode line for those modes.
>
What are the suffixes about?

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Message #20 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
To: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>, 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:07:51 +0200 (CEST)

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Jun 26, 2022, 10:48 by bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:

>
> Jun 26, 2022, 09:28 by psainty <at> orcon.net.nz:
>
>> On 2022-06-26 20:34, carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com wrote:
>>
>>> Besides being a request that is not so obscure, `delight.el'
>>> breaks down for
>>> `c-mode', `c++-mode', `php-mode', and possibly others.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, and I'd like to revisit bug#2034 at some point to resolve
>> that; but FYI the documented workaround that you've seen already
>> would suit your needs, because you already stated that you don't
>> want suffixes like "/*l" added to the mode line for those modes.
>>
> What are the suffixes about?
>
How does delight compare to dim?

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Message #23 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
Cc: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com, 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:56:37 +0200

Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz> writes:

> You might find the GNU ELPA package delight.el to be suitable.
> See https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/DelightedModes for details.
>
> There are other options as well, including these (and maybe
> more besides):
>
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/72194/454
>
> Lars, I think this is a duplicate of bug#30978 ?

Yes, sort of.  And the conclusion is that there's a bunch of these
packages out there for a reason -- people have very different needs and
expectations for the mode line, so different packages makes sense.  So
adding something to the core here wouldn't be helpful, and I'm therefore
closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #30 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>, 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 17:09:42 +0200 (CEST)

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Jun 26, 2022, 14:56 by larsi <at> gnus.org:

> Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz> writes:
>
>> You might find the GNU ELPA package delight.el to be suitable.
>> See https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/DelightedModes for details.
>>
>> There are other options as well, including these (and maybe
>> more besides):
>>
>> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/72194/454
>>
>> Lars, I think this is a duplicate of bug#30978 ?
>>
>
> Yes, sort of.  And the conclusion is that there's a bunch of these
> packages out there for a reason -- people have very different needs and
> expectations for the mode line, so different packages makes sense.  So
> adding something to the core here wouldn't be helpful, and I'm therefore
> closing this bug report.
>

I am pushing only for some basic capability that people can build upon for 
specific expectations.  

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Message #33 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
To: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com
Cc: 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 08:59:35 +1200

On 2022-06-26 22:48, carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com wrote:
>> would suit your needs, because you already stated that you don't
>> want suffixes like "/*l" added to the mode line for those modes.
> 
> What are the suffixes about?

Refer to: C-h i g (ccmode)Minor Modes

> How does delight compare to dim?

AFAIU they're broadly similar, but I don't really know.  I wrote
delight so that's what I use.  The alternative at the time was
diminish.el which I found cumbersome and limited to minor modes
(hence writing an alternative), but that's the only comparison I
can make from personal experience.  I've seen the others mentioned
over the years, but I don't use any of them, so I recommend just
checking their documentation.


-Phil

Message #36 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Howard Melman <hmelman <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2022 12:38:34 -0400

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz> writes:
>
>> You might find the GNU ELPA package delight.el to be suitable.
>> See https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/DelightedModes for details.
>>
>> There are other options as well, including these (and maybe
>> more besides):
>>
>> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/72194/454
>>
>> Lars, I think this is a duplicate of bug#30978 ?
>
> Yes, sort of.  And the conclusion is that there's a bunch of these
> packages out there for a reason -- people have very different needs and
> expectations for the mode line, so different packages makes sense.  So
> adding something to the core here wouldn't be helpful, and I'm therefore
> closing this bug report.

As I tried to express in bug#30978, one of the reasons there
are packages to do this is that some modes hardcode their
lighter string and if they defined variables instead, like
many other modes do, users (and these package writers) would
have an easier time.  Now that most minor modes use
define-minor-mode there's an easy place to correct this.

I think there are now 3 people supporting this and the only
argument against was:

On the one hand, a `foo-mode-lighter' variable would make
things easy and regular.  On the other hand, it means
creating a new user option for each minor mode (i.e., a
defcustom), and it means having these in `minor-mode-alist',
which means one additional variable lookup (per minor mode)
when creating the mode line.

I still think that's a fine trade off.  I see ~70 modes in emacs
that use a hard-coded :lighter string and most are specific
to some major mode as opposed to being generally on in all
modes.

I wish you'd reconsider bug#30978.

Also, the elisp manual when discussing :lighter doesn't
mention using a symbol as a value or the customization that
provides to the user and I think it should.

-- 

Howard

Message #39 received at 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis <at> me.com>
To: carlmarcos <at> tutanota.com, 56215 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#56215: Request for decluttering capability on mode-line
 keywords
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2022 17:57:43 +0200

carlmarcos--- via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Would like to request the capability for users to remove :lighter
> keywords, if they wish.

+1 for adding this 101 capability to vanilla Emacs.  Using a 3rd-party
package makes lazy configuration more complex, for any such package must
install before all the other packages that use it can initialize.

Rudy
-- 
"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't.  That's logic.'"
-- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass, 1871/1872

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis <at> me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia

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