From unknown Sat Sep 20 12:59:44 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#55862 <55862@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#55862 <55862@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Reply-To: bug#55862 <55862@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2025 19:59:44 +0000 retitle 55862 Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default reassign 55862 emacs submitter 55862 goncholden severity 55862 normal tag 55862 wontfix thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 08 23:19:14 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 03:19:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44623 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nz8hW-0004dd-OB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:19:14 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:49242) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nz8hV-0004dU-FP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:19:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46550) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nz8hV-0001EB-A7 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:19:13 -0400 Received: from mail-40137.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.137]:59835) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nz8hT-00053F-DT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:19:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654744748; x=1655003948; bh=AhwV0H7qzPBkl9le9OmstI/xFq27P5xkFVoPjjmnbtU=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc: Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=BcKMfHKZ4tQixEjC1pNlfMk1+7QUOxxdljoH0CLpwGnrWyKMV8m9DqF0Po0+REMgC 7joIe20kk+zRo/kxVlmQcboqwTA2CXCGQ3+SnQFm4HDjZiLheg27A737kq1JIrQwgX tnK9Tuonj6Sn24fovLya4xveMfBjhyp5/R/PgdQH3fwbYbCcJ9T8DI7cc+GHLe7syJ lhAc8kENih0Ek//LeAPdroifo3C2PA9R88nztSgpSboF0lJuuR+gywIKAsBp91LhqY BS3NRUCg1/QebMnjCrItDS3FXVw5JLfjOfNUThSWzsNBTwOxTvAqXg6/lRObcoxoD8 DCmNlF5EtVq3Q== To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" From: goncholden Subject: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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9 Jun 2022 05:38:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44708 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzAs6-00006L-Mf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 01:38:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48728) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzAs5-000064-0o for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 01:38:17 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48540) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzArz-0007Sm-O8; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 01:38:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=hZSvX11BfI5D6+BNIKcNW6TGvWWWzJgyR1WWZDHiOuY=; b=HV4JCO+cCB2V 7pM8fiIIcbGvV58s5Q7DFqkxadV64Gt7D1URcKDtv5ukRI0OEzZANePGadJ2QqqdpNz5qnV7uQ+Xg cxvuchbhMlRSIa5u37NZEHTZLhoI6xqAL6CksNGAL0w113cjU+2F1hOt+XUnEEbhIdK3lPr3wmIeJ Zr/uBTId1cAnbXwh20an/KpBYZqBc4jyzKKLzDA7XDmSKklSbsXrBWKnUwLjU1X8V4VD701uIkPsP Tp9c/We/W7Z9XcDqLdyXvQr5F81XyMakHubPJYbDnP/pSbcO0t0l9Qx43uvLY6DSFNF/RkRcuSzrG KJj05id2XlNjeArOI31oEA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1891 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzArz-0004rP-5O; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 01:38:11 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 08:38:08 +0300 Message-Id: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: goncholden In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000 > From: goncholden via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used. That depends on the major mode. E.g., in text mode and its derivatives this is turned off. But in programming modes, many languages accept TABs, so using them is not a bad idea, especially since this is a long-standing Emacs default. > I have been modifying bash scripts and the introduced tabs are driving me insane. Maybe shell-mode should change its defaults, then. I don't use that too much, so I don't have an opinion. Of course, arguing about defaults is many times futile, since changing them is very easy. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 08:40:55 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 12:40:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45313 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHT5-0007nw-M9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 08:40:55 -0400 Received: from mail-40140.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.140]:44705) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHT1-0007nc-Di for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 08:40:54 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:40:35 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654778445; x=1655037645; bh=XrGPLaOiEjOmSVJzGa+QG5eElUggyDeu6LnA4fg4guQ=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=IlLCQqT5ZvHxZ+Tzd9ctCyb60ZdyCqJygpafa/EWmImhrCEqX6m6kHRoU0uMvuG9u jGEkRvxM8Yqyoksv4qnU1BhALF/kUkIdcohFqD6Uxg9xQCfVtn7bxv5p8A4AF6iETw j7t0+MEKPkBdZa0lRBi6lXHhpCF31ItjmKwopGmk1R7ZwpKWEqlDqHflOOi4udLC5o Y4e7O5dZqIfBUqLd34BwN1rPQrbumsOfDyYLlthH03hkOUe7ZeLZqtuEWXEvzSZJuf S8riTf1Sj9JJZ1mvY0B78Ud25j3dN71Y1+KHIB7vDqN5/6PxdPyncdZItM2qeGrnyj 5E/Byn7VADW3Q== To: Eli Zaretskii From: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: goncholden Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, June 9th, 2022 at 5:38 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000 > > From: goncholden via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > > the Swiss army knife of text editors" bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used. > > > That depends on the major mode. E.g., in text mode and its > derivatives this is turned off. But in programming modes, many > languages accept TABs, so using them is not a bad idea, especially > since this is a long-standing Emacs default. > > > I have been modifying bash scripts and the introduced tabs are driving = me insane. > > > Maybe shell-mode should change its defaults, then. I don't use that > too much, so I don't have an opinion. > > Of course, arguing about defaults is many times futile, since changing > them is very easy. > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mo= de. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 09:01:09 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 13:01:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45375 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHmf-0003FI-0r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:01:09 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:48984) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHmd-00037u-7B for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:01:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=nPPtO5apxCTH1R+Htgl3vK3m4L3cOp+lvyTdE5tct/s=; b=gIMv3n3+oYO1wdN+loa/pHxF1d UPvWeSxYrqlQEReYTROGZGskAEe4Zi2N8BpmzN0G6uZxO9/wZDVsgtbNrytcahe11KxHMwq3GTjUk Ev0Ov4OLW/efjNoRdEv9/YjngMPzreR1Zis5J3FEjdx37WwKR3Q00fZY+ulUWHgisyAs=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHmU-00088s-Cm; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:01:00 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: Prince's _Sign 'O' the Times (7): Live in Utrecht I_: "Slow Love (Live In Utrecht)" Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:00:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: (goncholden@protonmail.com's message of "Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:40:35 +0000") Message-ID: <87wndq56uv.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: goncholden writes: > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode. You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're interested in setting it. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) goncholden writes: > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode. You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're interested in setting it. We're not going to change any defaults in this area, because that would break people's setups, and I'm therefore closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 09:01:14 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 13:01:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45378 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHmk-0003KN-FM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:01:14 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:48998) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHmi-0003DF-7c for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:01:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=kzp+XfFh8kNBeoVX+EBz1Q4U3viodE9aW8YGEkKPVhw=; b=V1s9L58AcKth7oasxoeQilum3X sN2MdR49Wl9gF333pp+QJlUz60WckgfOAx6VXWZYMh7kD4opsLdpRWK1aLE3pJrCrC31bwYyLZSlk 7nwTM826DlCZO70bW35fxFs9jgin3ko+IxC+ADZAkgqjqf4eesijBakYB8cCv5oulr/I=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHma-000899-JE for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:01:06 +0200 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:01:04 +0200 Message-Id: <87v8ta56un.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #55862 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 55862 wontfix close 55862 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 55862 wontfix close 55862 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 09:12:53 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 13:12:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45415 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHy0-0004d5-To for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:12:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56050) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHxz-0004cm-3b for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:12:51 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55182) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHxt-0007os-NR; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:12:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=IqZKjBXVGc4Q67MkhY3rOwpg3ul5Pwo2EiHF8F4k+eA=; b=SjXknFhXWRpO n8yozQvd2ebyKwdP8hJb/lDz2W5FBwu0u4/jlAAklkKVEOqNkQUXOqaHYb++jD2SnQ0wkTLQP2jgK q5pvezCm43mGuQzIE9sMGKkQOrusspNQ9oOzidrPa11YdeLeliye3gfKUqavWyMGLpnPBaQOQpl0G 82phZhoXnjKsL5vamnX0gbEY8Skq1+NBrQ/ZovD+TBJrfRRmOd/zYlTKdpRHZi1WmWpESs7thYcXz 6D2gkbNscQYn9aoQxOSj3wQJFXmC0qa/rFsEFQ2fi0VCCBbEwXVoTtAuxLZnROEQiTZFMbpGxGHkk cixwq+djJM3e8Lmv7OVo1Q==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2637 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzHxt-0005DE-6I; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:12:45 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:12:41 +0300 Message-Id: <83leu62d6e.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: goncholden In-Reply-To: (message from goncholden on Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:40:35 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:40:35 +0000 > From: goncholden > Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Of course, arguing about defaults is many times futile, since changing > > them is very easy. > > > > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode. Every major mode has a mode hook, and the usual way to customize a mode is in that hook. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 09:35:13 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 13:35:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45497 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIJd-00017f-Cx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:35:13 -0400 Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]:46149) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIJb-00017G-5w for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:35:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 13:34:52 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654781705; x=1655040905; bh=VwLDM0ozsNAsV3hmeY93fiyb4aq01rIdaGxFZpNipHc=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=kt+SIkHAvHgJBgrY0v/wMY+uoIkicGacoV5TibP6wwmrnkbG7kYNaGyb4fp7nmIl+ iHWHx7r8Lm+8tB8AjvXzX1YJkdAFQFYNmn6+PzPoAU9KFWbT2oQ2/c+AZRC4vB91EL zpxLMQBzTvp0AWUQATiKBxwT/O3y5+gw8NHRCVqAiT2D3EFoJ4xrLtCaTh0jRZoie2 8UmTZv2TqnnPahOIQCBlR8rJob0OXqdO9rwjh3LGrljBZ/XqI4TAsGeJkjbzoj2QJj QxvC3ioHT1LPNFN/BJ+VxYU0+LagBJfxLyUno8yKF81Y77N8TjrSm9nNVCfJ/bbCdc DyNlXOTAe1qUw== To: Lars Ingebrigtsen From: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87wndq56uv.fsf@gnus.org> References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <87wndq56uv.fsf@gnus.org> Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: goncholden Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 1:00 AM, Lars Ingebrigtsen w= rote: > goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes: > > > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on majo= r mode. > > > You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're > interested in setting it. Fantastic! Could you show me how I can do that exactly? > We're not going to change any defaults in this area, because that would > break people's setups, and I'm therefore closing this bug report. > > -- > (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) > bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 09:38:27 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 13:38:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45515 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIMl-0001Df-K7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:38:27 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:49744) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIMj-0001DS-Qi for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 09:38:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RJZUNIKk6+iH8J6mr14FHH903cTSmmLVaM8FuVqVnuI=; b=muLi2TlUND1mEwqQkCLjcF+ic7 XMWJO1b+ysmNi/ADXFF/l7BYaLlUCNxPF4gJJ2a6UqJKXd64Y8rjLvr3+pwwAFPuEMI04XN4/foim F5iGY1NhbLmtc2HKels4Orq+BazNM5aVTcSNOxX1P7i7fbiMsh1Lf5ngKYPAfPLvmWQI=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIMb-0000J5-Bs; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:38:19 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <87wndq56uv.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEW2qKv9/f3Pz9GR bXoKBQsoHC9EOFhXU4n///9t9cd0AAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+YGCQ0jORf1hC8AAAF/ SURBVDjLfdTBcsIgEAbgVGf02qQvkHro2RqN104L9toZWXLtDLK5OqbC63chUQHT7jFffiALJMvy 0SqyxX+wcJX1Na2q1wsULK73CABA3ANIbK1FwhTQg+4lAB/oAe4BtRuLJAEDAnxEJKCBwX2CZtDL NZcpNDSFyp54kshZa6w9FY/gJxEhdEe7zIsNdwsTbzdolpNJWZSaI2IIoumyWtWrtdQS0EM+gNHT s3zeSM04hICtKq0qBPo+honTqrJmRU1OoetKa5Z9IARVVXOrp4iuLxFsEU0zMwgYr0pZiWeJ9ix1 DNRbRAIK6ATofZqBAiCjD3Sgwbc9AYNyAEiAWi76HRQfEXDQ/B7ayg5HJIZDc5zb7ShUNY4nXvAK GML3jA6vP+9SdCGoGqVFwXhViyjhNggtwcMC9usA3Ce3hi7OV6nlIQFl3Y3aCz4MVfYgWH+bdrSA EPqnQ8VwvZpMxEBjX+TzBn70wx9wq90Vfhgb9gLc1qsrFCN/GQ9j9Qu61v+elm2MfwAAACV0RVh0 ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0wNi0wOVQxMzozNTo1NyswMDowMLAiuqgAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9k aWZ5ADIwMjItMDYtMDlUMTM6MzU6NTcrMDA6MDDBfwIUAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Prince's _Sign 'O' the Times (7): Live in Utrecht II_: "When Doves Cry (Live In Utrecht)" Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 15:38:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: (goncholden@protonmail.com's message of "Thu, 09 Jun 2022 13:34:52 +0000") Message-ID: <87tu8u3qk7.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: goncholden writes: > Fantastic! Could you show me how I can do that exactly? This is a bug tracker -- please use the Emacs help mailing lists for questions like this. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) goncholden writes: > Fantastic! Could you show me how I can do that exactly? This is a bug tracker -- please use the Emacs help mailing lists for questions like this. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 10:06:10 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 14:06:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47132 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzInZ-0006kZ-Q9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:06:10 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:40147) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzInW-0006jr-18 for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:06:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:05:49 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654783559; x=1655042759; bh=55musek9dMtLHvFmhR+/4wOlcJbCOVxoULf6qp6QyvM=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=aQWFib0EfCAk/K/v4By8qWiArLTpL9EPAp9LkvOXpYXqxYyVcnOl0h2j7MfNXb/kn 8ucVWWVZwAJk+AXZfAg2p0YGhOkzFSQHYe2CJXCOpOeq1T1/hoKtm91oYkrRB0R7J8 EPLufWkLXeJjFaoYYDpjPTfykLx0ITpgKgCSljFoZH6V9zEIR9MOV7orKoQXRnWTkJ CoQPtMrhqh3Ng3eym4q7AR1ZPkkMFfR7XehHTBrlAHFJErctsiAZYXNcHHRoI/+lMI Z+IVL3zodypQBEW/jMtgd3qsK8K51JDQTaLvKjJiS+eRyunCsIApx8K2KNuC5VjRmx hhReMhdB9BbRw== To: Eli Zaretskii From: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83leu62d6e.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <83leu62d6e.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: goncholden Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) A 2016 survey by Felipe Hoffa concluded that spaces far outpace tabs in eve= ry major programming language with the exceptions of C, one of the very old= est programming languages, and Google's Go. It is worth reconsidering the decision to stick with tabs in future. I do = not know of any mechanism to show (with some symbol) the beginning of each = tab and the end of a line when space happens at the end of a line. https://hoffa.medium.com/400-000-github-repositories-1-billion-files-14-ter= abytes-of-code-spaces-or-tabs-7cfe0b5dd7fd#.o7n8zeezx ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 1:12 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:40:35 +0000 > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com > > Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > Of course, arguing about defaults is many times futile, since changin= g > > > them is very easy. > > > > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on majo= r mode. > > > Every major mode has a mode hook, and the usual way to customize a > mode is in that hook. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 10:10:34 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 14:10:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47162 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIrq-0006tg-E4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:10:34 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com ([209.85.208.53]:42794) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIrl-0006tM-4F for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:10:32 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id n28so31380527edb.9 for <55862@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:10:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h/RLWyW/WLH1kiSptQjDaPDB0xxwPBLdq8o9RvUkf/s=; b=fwZ2Sl2SDx7h/4FjxuLaW4o+i3Tw5JMLC7SBaXPpYKgbAjt6bfavw+tlr8Y3eGNVUL rESoA5AY/FlZ9U3MOI7FRhthcFb6o9nAvTAXExmz9bjhR0asQDHlT9kOnV+o7imG3HEv FHR8D1S6CaqVx/wb/vcbMFa0wi6fTGIdo7g7E82sca8FhfLd9iYQy0aH5RP1OgayhG8m 5uXzR7ruQ+9jAX+5Wo8idcsdxrr6Yzzmvtfk5wfvObpn3XiEfHnYmbYlQSyJ8s6XCLrN 3Bcr12pOKx8CjzhGhnv+Qb5OOWlJEU8dC4t8e17mOSyJbuRdy/uqU6/3YsExb38vclVG JGtg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent :subject:content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h/RLWyW/WLH1kiSptQjDaPDB0xxwPBLdq8o9RvUkf/s=; b=vWcJg8BOYTIWnoR8hfjw97QtaH5vHFmDx4rSc71ciBUHN3fG9vkksZgWhjdq6o7+Wd IEFuAM8SkHwq8BWtIfMBXEE5SMbCOz0PHB+bT5cZqZWvWdHBiUwF/ijFNh2jKT+qQqbx ZS51G+MCRUU+WlnuGTl9M6Oh/wnOJ6aaaRYLxepRQxBH6abSMkFKduUntRby2hdXgo5B DsxFmnaFRnbtSNxqnrA/+BeyIXAa6LEI6aJ3ZnnvBkcl3jnY5BTbTO1AnhobFouX17Pp d6Qhfo7eDXBvnvxkjmVh5ovaf26e1QOpb99B9iZzJJ3w5MykkTdHij4klP3BvyRXhWRr HpnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532i6sy1jIEdk9J4LYTi3mKRiSn6iI7huaiDDNylE08iTra8o/cd UDQFUsMYrIlvb88Mh4lR1GY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy0ArezRdoANfF8yQu4wjqEMEpNl/UKGzepnZ0Ir7AFhQt1i5c0UzEyBELQ9726Gp47tu1Z6A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:b09:b0:42d:bd80:11ac with SMTP id bm9-20020a0564020b0900b0042dbd8011acmr45918864edb.244.1654783815178; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.236.48] ([173.237.64.48]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id o7-20020a50fd87000000b0042dc25fdf5bsm14367814edt.29.2022.06.09.07.10.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e7a8804-681f-200e-3c9b-c4947d059fe5@yandex.ru> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 17:10:12 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.1 Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Content-Language: en-US To: Eli Zaretskii , goncholden References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 09.06.2022 08:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000 >> From: goncholden via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, >> the Swiss army knife of text editors" >> >> Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used. > That depends on the major mode. E.g., in text mode and its > derivatives this is turned off. But in programming modes, many > languages accept TABs, so using them is not a bad idea, especially > since this is a long-standing Emacs default. > It being a long-time default of ours has no effect on whether using tabs is a good idea (since Emacs is not particularly popular these days to affect global practive). But you know my opinion on this anyway. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 10:11:49 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 14:11:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47186 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIt3-0006xG-NT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:11:49 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f42.google.com ([209.85.218.42]:34653) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIt1-0006wp-8z for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:11:48 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f42.google.com with SMTP id o7so14450091eja.1 for <55862@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:11:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MK96cYU1assUHam980Pgu2vdP7WwyuQFsFvp+cvPWdM=; b=YWTuv0xWzztoVzV9nxdRA2zw2DfAGjvl0nCaYfWWdcNNsCJGXVuFfs7r2Yjah49bac SfrDK20WLLLRKhcIiXY0+3blS4tHVIYIM80DBRMkxg6atGo2WFqZA9b7NEPdoDSXms82 GQLXoB3J5TYlqwVuOwCwU29ylMTixIZ9xAvirONgvNSlmArnNBVOUOfF5MoCjHcYK2df m8boKsqW42yDrpS7YXTpS+jIzg0pzxd61Bn3K2OXz1+sZ/siWP3kmrbKAqHBDNgmDLui HbsPo2vO91hcV3GM9/lnERXq110x+EUNE56GWxltMSbdzBE5hzioRpUTgFZrPVK8+jui /LRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent :subject:content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MK96cYU1assUHam980Pgu2vdP7WwyuQFsFvp+cvPWdM=; b=NrQ3Qgoo5MSR3TYwY3n14nVq9NHkgDNoSCLGKDAjX5lCGJXoAbixk/Pie4/lLjDtd9 NfoWgGZRfRqVYeuTlqPmqmk6BIuTiKKTFKWKOW5T250xjxh8fBFvsQMNGhzRFdb3O37U 89HEo1HB6S5Ei+cmR5DLAIyv2/SSZbN+heHzWzl85cDrYXmH4h7wtF0F0deVqcdyM9+/ 67agD2zZx1ZLAIUIkMbRFE+olpdGHheK6l0dggcagJownDdPQrp5b11pyKnzGEfzkcx1 p87tNRnhH+E2KS5aFZ38d6KFTQB2ZL0s8aMMhSAYhSN2jo6uwcBVbda5nU1o7NbJWs/q fB6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5332hWw2H1y+aBirNxjTYxAUvMqX7DWlUYlDRBJNGcGjz+zySaQx eDYvdvto0fc5TTsWkgYd+knuSQkMYp9GwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxJK9JSiqepjRtEaZzz1KxukRJP5jsNv4zGzk9k4JOiqCsq/N2L53RoCZ9iuuydbilH6girog== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:3e91:b0:711:ea5e:2d4 with SMTP id hs17-20020a1709073e9100b00711ea5e02d4mr10437628ejc.52.1654783901561; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.236.48] ([173.237.64.48]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id g8-20020a170906198800b00711d5bc20d5sm4991504ejd.221.2022.06.09.07.11.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <87a310d6-fd76-6814-872d-f8897ad705b8@yandex.ru> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 17:11:39 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.1 Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Content-Language: en-US To: goncholden , Eli Zaretskii References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 09.06.2022 15:40, goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote: > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on major mode. You can customize 'indent-tabs-mode' globally to nil, to use spaces in most language modes. The ones that really need tabs (such as makefile-mode) will continue to use them anyway. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 10:18:39 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 14:18:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47208 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIze-0000sa-Tt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:18:39 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:56767) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzIzc-0000sL-Px for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:18:37 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:18:28 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654784310; x=1655043510; bh=fMZIZKx6YYI6JsHtDXtQB8pRG16oN0YuKzF93nTs8no=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=Cy0DE6q3B6qJtUtV4lbzDhpRXevOLK8YD3pbBQM2IGbJSA67879IvmjiTTMzyOb4E f/+4pdfcdPIiWkRckiOCIJY/c4x44yOzqJz2nMbR9GPNuv8tpHDwHFqHE6FP2/76JW 442ngeUwhT9+3lYpBKtdd8BBfSvRm7Vkq1NrHM5pDH7DqM8bUOVmDvRCrF4LQtUjWx YQfZ/2RDwAkLPlBimxpy9iUNqjWQk7y7s8DeEW+82DHhicamk1yoV45R7IlfkuUQDA eVOGELg51gRS1yxOtPncvZBev+pOq7Gf7/TEqv+57qpVMdFgIsC694Zj09vpycHEh8 36tc7YpWRlFsw== To: Dmitry Gutov From: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87a310d6-fd76-6814-872d-f8897ad705b8@yandex.ru> References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <87a310d6-fd76-6814-872d-f8897ad705b8@yandex.ru> Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: goncholden Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 2:11 AM, Dmitry Gutov wrot= e: > On 09.06.2022 15:40, goncholden via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss > army knife of text editors wrote: > > > It is not so easy because one also has to make the change based on majo= r mode. > > > You can customize 'indent-tabs-mode' globally to nil, to use spaces in > most language modes. If it is changed globally, I would think it would be a bad idea for major m= odes that require tabs. Can use setq-default perhaps. > The ones that really need tabs (such as makefile-mode) will continue to > use them anyway. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 10:21:46 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 14:21:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47215 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzJ2g-0000yR-CE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:21:46 -0400 Received: from mail-40130.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.130]:31723) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzJ2e-0000y5-7Q for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:21:45 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654784498; x=1655043698; bh=WqREGN6YzdcgaenxkBT/yxBY9csx6xxL18KSzDXLAOM=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=cCbcQKm2TuSYEC39L/Ljr4rec3YvJWVqHGsW5Qs7jLShgPjRDkSza7+WFLElKkNgI nv4RG/xveeh1H+cYRKb+9kcyr4Mjn1PbjjojQ+6m6r1LFRufSu/0gJGpie7wipd5yv DkXwVGPjjtoS6xOS9R853PLmuCuC3+56NuDT8sw9A7GFqviSEaYNtwwWqmIlUqX6ts hLO3g8UlBJ5L4RMPZrBNyFA8b4IcLrrTaCIsDbkSW/uzunmMDwHECqS4h9tzA0tG4i 9nQSu+ZZI4ihEscDYvcfk8eGdmbeG/bOIHoyw5HFG/SRnjsWbCrOV/OCDmg7BI9caj s1rf7YFTCSbuw== To: Dmitry Gutov From: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8e7a8804-681f-200e-3c9b-c4947d059fe5@yandex.ru> References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <8e7a8804-681f-200e-3c9b-c4947d059fe5@yandex.ru> Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: goncholden Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 2:10 AM, Dmitry Gutov wrot= e: > On 09.06.2022 08:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 03:19:01 +0000 > > > From: goncholden via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > > > the Swiss army knife of text editors"bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > > Why is `indent-tabs-mode' t by default? Tabs should not be used. > > > That depends on the major mode. E.g., in text mode and its > > > derivatives this is turned off. But in programming modes, many > > > languages accept TABs, so using them is not a bad idea, especially > > > since this is a long-standing Emacs default. > > > It being a long-time default of ours has no effect on whether using tabs > is a good idea (since Emacs is not particularly popular these days to > affect global practive). > > But you know my opinion on this anyway. This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for passed= -over old folks stuck in the eigthies. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 10:30:27 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 14:30:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47232 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzJB4-0001EE-Sd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:30:27 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f43.google.com ([209.85.218.43]:38837) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzJB3-0001Dv-Ax for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 10:30:25 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f43.google.com with SMTP id n10so47879287ejk.5 for <55862@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:30:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UftWC7+agEnIwlOgEWeuCphPT1n5I446HZqt/nx+b/Y=; b=i+Pss0Y34t3e6qGbRV4VZFylwrbXWjQ/E7sO9wE/2v3Oku9x6gnv3zC1sF0Anldnrc LvGPe0Ig1UEVtt1d0H8Jl/WRUFUyp3RCApklGkCqnXCavL3GHyDwPN2yCU+IcsEKtspw NACM+bkRIfySV61nUlMVFA8mlvk9+xB8oBypgR1j8y3bxSBE5JCW9OgEuM3urx6WGHYr W/xCLb/zxpYCFtGrapBTtT5zXLMCwEc5dBHZo1Jex1Wy23UM71b138jvL3x2wZtplgsC GZolsmygvFrUy4uUVjeG9cjkNlaUWuR1hmARJrAJMeGPGaM+rq3sV6Td3L8VRbTz3k0G Vs2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent :subject:content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UftWC7+agEnIwlOgEWeuCphPT1n5I446HZqt/nx+b/Y=; b=X4U2OzuNE24Ough/cYSogPMX8yOj4CreQzUXhwyJ5YQOHsbY7ZNPCcXYWjQIAstmwJ l8an88ujq9x/r/MFaBpp1tH8DS5PYa+/7HBKVq1wP6/cZV51z0q55le7Tjf+RnEd56mR bGU5mQV7+rBxZ2IZnQZ6oYXTRFRNmHzXlXDc8FB/SuNKck3P4k6U9QGewL9uI2otSLad Ff5ootNDvolo5sfcHpzjAUVBMEa+Stzj88VhtsPoRY80IB9xgsZHJ6gA6FdrcMxpK0Ws e+5PVYkIgkxBrBZ1fvIw0zJM+VDzpOitg5x+KSe4ha+nLhJElrcZSWRXQJ9NNVr0v/yA G1ag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5307GPh7ygPDKU7P+KfvdGkEDERShRmnLwsroydpDEQdUPQbuP5Y 9zVMMkh/eW7csMEEB/De7AE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz78g82TMiP+2dgjTzUTBY5jQ0xjGjgmEiKeUzfTq8vtFkYLvclTHDfMR5ErtWvZ4b/F9Spaw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:1c8d:b0:6f2:eb2:1cd6 with SMTP id nb13-20020a1709071c8d00b006f20eb21cd6mr35414461ejc.568.1654785019471; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.236.48] ([173.237.64.48]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id v9-20020a170906380900b00711d546f8a8sm5097634ejc.139.2022.06.09.07.30.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jun 2022 07:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <407f3549-ed22-7614-fbd2-e7c6cb8883b4@yandex.ru> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 17:30:17 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.1 Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Content-Language: en-US To: goncholden References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <87a310d6-fd76-6814-872d-f8897ad705b8@yandex.ru> From: Dmitry Gutov In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 09.06.2022 17:18, goncholden wrote: > If it is changed globally, I would think it would be a bad idea for major modes that require tabs. Can use setq-default perhaps. You seem to have missed the last sentence in my email. And customization does have a similar effect to setq-default. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 11:53:52 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 15:53:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47456 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKTo-0001jV-Le for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 11:53:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49240) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKTl-0001jI-6n for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 11:53:51 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59634) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKTf-0005eu-PZ; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 11:53:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=oyM2+3oG2GS6I4bjZ3gGFRJbPZf1XZvqYqsdM415SkI=; b=GBZkldB+i8yR y615sr3nJHsmiHEyqH1lPNIgDxpCNM58X4gXl6iLT+Rf94fjR26Mt24N+rAzEYvxNMKqrRri+zm1d 5CRdhtRD2iP9kQFXyGqDHwRtwRxz/L0zKQkh0s8jrF779kFZ8mFdP5++UlN7A6HVSr6s25vubXHq1 vsynogZWB2HgUiJeUDC6Rrf9JHA9lKsVEuXMITuRDatZnU9OO3Xb2Ko5JuNbftWchlEXlJyRsV9k1 0bbYePLWBAdH0LaHgrpv3eosINl5aH7mbqypAXONE1et1oKsd2uXha+WEtGtmW8Zbf19nXfuLMxBf wLurfhfazsWo9Exr2MCuiw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4545 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKTf-0001GB-8f; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 11:53:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 18:53:39 +0300 Message-Id: <83ilp93kak.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: goncholden In-Reply-To: (message from goncholden on Thu, 09 Jun 2022 13:34:52 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <87wndq56uv.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 13:34:52 +0000 > From: goncholden > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > > You have to put the setting into the major mode hook where you're > > interested in setting it. > > Fantastic! Could you show me how I can do that exactly? Something like this: (defun my-FOO-stuff () (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) (add-hook 'FOO-mode-hook 'my-FOO-stuff) (Replace "FOO" with the actual mode name.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 12:03:19 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 16:03:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47481 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKcx-00021N-Cx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:03:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51850) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKcv-000218-RV for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:03:18 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60074) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKcq-0007a7-Jv; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:03:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=/BqZIbwikeu2KFmyjkl6MMeqosruM5oL+ZRzhv1qMxk=; b=cIwYokddaK+4 /aVneydI75ho5oJjKByZtlnkPCTa71Kw7bsYfLtsfpqxD/b3PX3vX/zS4mK9uH4+GRGPhY01sw4+I ERS7hsTiuuQ0SBCHvk6Uv4kBW/9STbQDFPPLGNehvA2/0/x90IbzcjDGdjsW4caKi3Pq1LKm+XAfT mJFBcxMm4q7+xcTF4IQkCw+bGfXqjoTYSsE8wcwP+q6pqv87VAnmcAQBc7zKXRWyWnLs9Xd5PphiI /+zq48dH99s4wdjICRapJWT74DqCGfic4iDy03brWBhFfFX3Xrkf1x2bavxgIE7vmsA16LSZhVue7 06FS2L39vpem/SCLAkVHFg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1155 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKcq-0006MY-1a; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:03:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 19:03:08 +0300 Message-Id: <83fskd3jur.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: goncholden In-Reply-To: (message from goncholden on Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:05:49 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <83leu62d6e.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:05:49 +0000 > From: goncholden > Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > I do not know of any mechanism to show (with some symbol) the beginning of each tab and the end of a line when space happens at the end of a line. Try "M-x whitespace-mode RET". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 12:06:10 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 16:06:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47491 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKfi-00028C-2Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:06:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52564) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKfg-00027v-HI for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:06:09 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60102) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKfb-0008LM-Ad; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:06:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=CB+6ElkgmEvCsbEDZWENwrvv/rmhTwtiVgYKqMvomVo=; b=dzf1F2ih6rU3 +XeanIvmZqNZ5d+bQt59sLbmmw155IZnzWBFulKMp2ScUDsPZQ7UDhCQp/+Uikk1wbPzrtqJcshys fhOiCMVc0UFiYNC8nQ/y7/kJdVJxX36Tqs/l/Jqme6YqR4Npvts8ALLUrCRv3CpCGqw6xthuGBt1I NZA3aQj0P+7BxEasCcfwHHem6oDgaiYfQsyUP9mvMBLRdkJ7fRfIibKMWY5DFj2et7H7zRN+2CCCS zWm36FsSdAhj6chpa31NXDFeSlHxpKnMNch96rME4kR9nxEjqv7QNWJgfYSOuuT/5g5RGG9Gyq9zL 8mYJCaXzoK+CSUJlryfNSw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1329 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzKfa-0003CA-Qo; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:06:03 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 19:06:00 +0300 Message-Id: <83edzx3jpz.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: goncholden In-Reply-To: (message from goncholden on Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <8e7a8804-681f-200e-3c9b-c4947d059fe5@yandex.ru> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000 > From: goncholden > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for passed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies. The crowd of youngsters from 2020s are welcome to come aboard in their masses and take over from the old farts. 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9 Jun 2022 16:32:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47528 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzL55-0004ns-Re for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:32:24 -0400 Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:51401) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzL53-0004i9-6R for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:32:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:32:07 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654792335; x=1655051535; bh=rzGT/yzcxfhxqDRFBufvI/+45q4T5WqPcRXK4wMceU8=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=Vvs0NZ4noTZ5YvFe4b1ZUk/dCNsCerAYqE/wJZsTz3WGfdcsgi7iyUfToTzrsc/+e CB3NCV+pEXNjlPCAdzhB200s2JYHMNUoLKwuiXHusXRvPBo7Yl6YqIOEuPuJ0HlI4J GnsFaEwybhSlcM0WXZGpqt/ZdyuvvOuh3dzPneNcI+8wp7C7Q/TmZsntXeGKaspeJG +QgR7bccb5mf5FHlJKFLh/0g/rlCmcxpvo7JKVMW5bNcjL9IYz+p3Ta84zW2pgz/0M 3e8FEnIZWdg+7MlW1mbeG+cAnvuOGzsl+uywk4JAbsc1xsorS7hCeUv1fyWkAlvibZ egF+1I5c+hK8Q== To: Eli Zaretskii From: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: <_8pUOD8WQqQsST3tt7ZXlwwaJJ8sjWq2UgSmtLR-U_bviUdJMuE8KrelVLjrDw58Y5rtgVDNNZXi6lt91HSXKKXgGYic9d3tMVw7qcvNx08=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <83edzx3jpz.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <8e7a8804-681f-200e-3c9b-c4947d059fe5@yandex.ru> <83edzx3jpz.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: goncholden Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 4:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000 > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for pa= ssed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies. > > > The crowd of youngsters from 2020s are welcome to come aboard in their > masses and take over from the old farts. I am from the seventies actually. The youngsters will take over but mainta= iners should be forward thinking. Else things would stay put even when the= y take over. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 12:36:02 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 16:36:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47534 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzL8c-00054P-Ak for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:36:02 -0400 Received: from mail-40132.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.132]:17209) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzL8M-00053c-EW for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:36:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:35:35 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654792540; x=1655051740; bh=7HabcXM/2txL/wrp73i76kMSgHpu5TgIamBFrHwjgWI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=RhwX9//x39OTFoKJAU63YSiSZZshKASsmry61jg+OjQq3VOJqQPX8rknpYGHQsxiJ oIqfO33O8bS0HmApKiIs+cZ4SylIkP9AHczjtn0YA31wc6WeREtOegQ6WGry4yUtS7 GcbfpqeDxjvXuVNxNdlIQa4hb0hJJLqga1n1iuqLWv1RcwkQO0ylcibPXJNWYjgOYf YStrtF15XR8aC66KMaRDszL6Fred8RsqxasfXg1IZPxYmphPl38FPlJBB3zsdj/KWK j3QvAxOk91Sno9KP9vYTcrKOCAZas/vSPbCmJ9T5WPx3M+uCRaWU7IWp7cfoeRhJ7M /VKRuQ1Nx7Vng== To: Drew Adams From: goncholden Subject: RE: [External] : bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <83leu62d6e.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: "55862@debbugs.gnu.org" <55862@debbugs.gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: goncholden Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 4:06 AM, Drew Adams w= rote: > > It is worth reconsidering the decision to stick with tabs in future. I > > do not know of any mechanism to show (with some symbol) the beginning > > of each tab and the end of a line when space happens at the end of a > > line. > > > FWIW: You can use my library `highlight-chars.el' to highlight TAB chars = (or any chars) individually: M-x hc-highlight-chars TAB [enter the face you= want for it] Use` hc-toggle-highlight-trailing-whitespace' to > highlight trailing whitespace with a different face. > > But as the code stands now, trailing whitespace > includes TAB chars. As a quick hack you can edit > `hc-highlight-trailing-whitespace' to remove TAB chars from the (hard-cod= ed, so far) regexp of chars to match: (font-lock-add-keywords nil` (("[\u00= a0\040\t]+$" ; <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Remove \t > (0 'hc-trailing-whitespace > ,hc-font-lock-override))) > 'APPEND) > > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ShowWhiteSpace#HighlightChars > > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/highlight-chars.el > > [FWIW2: I'm one of the many who think the default > should be changed to nil. There was a fair > amount of discussion, but t carried the day.] What about visws.el ? Have tried using it but cannot get it to function. = I have done as follows and emacs did not respond well to it. (defun visws () "TODO" (add-to-list 'load-path "~/contrib/visws") (require 'visible-whitespace-mode) (visible-whitespace-mode)) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 12:44:41 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 16:44:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47569 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLGz-0005J0-O7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:44:41 -0400 Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]:61495) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLGx-0005Il-1q for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:44:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:44:27 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1654793073; x=1655052273; bh=8Bufx4fHjmmYwdZZxZtq3DjPpDFRqbknc0ZdT6BbvEo=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To: Feedback-ID:Message-ID; b=Ir/ELpLG+ReCJDyT0nCIh+qkT9wUknFHdffWblHk/OrMXozgdyfGmszHTW0kiyJv3 s5PNl/gJylyyKN0rqw3zHhKewNexLP3pLOhzudh7InTMpbbkrFLj/8VuXqLZb1uKGu kVaEKUkaG5l0pSKaGgRv5OAeVLLRHV/CLHUrLRQdzP4g6M/N1ZrpdLJPG4NH1FzqCt XQZWHr5nfofuNX2B2hwtr4/KQwaueA5oX8HaFjaSPvA08wrEPus2nnoVnLu0bPz2nm Dnyw+MGmYJt58MixmmHsuH66krg7s5cGI/j3naXzqFqz43qsBzAyhxyzVG1mWQcVpt +NXQiJlYuLz1w== To: Eli Zaretskii From: goncholden Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83edzx3jpz.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <8e7a8804-681f-200e-3c9b-c4947d059fe5@yandex.ru> <83edzx3jpz.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 43053548:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: goncholden Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 4:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000 > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for pa= ssed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies. > > > The crowd of youngsters from 2020s are welcome to come aboard in their > masses and take over from the old farts. The problem occurs mainly because tab widths are not consistent. As is kno= wn, tab widths relate directly with spaces, but that information is lost. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 12:52:58 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 16:52:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47601 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLOz-0005ac-TV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:52:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36234) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLOx-0005aP-T9 for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:52:56 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:32986) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLOr-0007GW-5u; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:52:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=SEMC8JS9qLVnGRV1Qf3u5pN+duTRY2whpBOoYRMBMRM=; b=RWZPVmjatzTS W0c5swIi5og+AEc/hsWVuyWPXZG2fyZuEgs2mvbIbfWCu2q+zMRX8KlyVp8FGsRCEguRTgyobYoyF NEpI/n/BYAy8dTCA7xY5+oBWzl++PiDW0I4EFJ33gfKjDUNQbaJK0SNsXI6DpX+kJsgADB8mH4Xe6 +onVBZqV1odBg+gAv8BbhAwIJTnHDhyzmImSdbmkXJ9XOaT9U9Z4d5sGlYk497IpGVElyarNUG46s AhocOr9w2dIycONPlY/OaP/FgRgDjzTSyui6gHmHxgJIvlBEdn/PqEf3va35wq67GuUgS6G+i/dOC X3wLhiCOyPQMOzuqDgbCJA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4199 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLOq-0005G2-Li; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:52:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 19:52:46 +0300 Message-Id: <834k0t3hk1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: goncholden In-Reply-To: <_8pUOD8WQqQsST3tt7ZXlwwaJJ8sjWq2UgSmtLR-U_bviUdJMuE8KrelVLjrDw58Y5rtgVDNNZXi6lt91HSXKKXgGYic9d3tMVw7qcvNx08=@protonmail.com> (message from goncholden on Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:32:07 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <8e7a8804-681f-200e-3c9b-c4947d059fe5@yandex.ru> <83edzx3jpz.fsf@gnu.org> <_8pUOD8WQqQsST3tt7ZXlwwaJJ8sjWq2UgSmtLR-U_bviUdJMuE8KrelVLjrDw58Y5rtgVDNNZXi6lt91HSXKKXgGYic9d3tMVw7qcvNx08=@protonmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:32:07 +0000 > From: goncholden > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 4:06 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 14:21:33 +0000 > > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com > > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > This has been a continual problem with emacs as it mostly caters for passed-over old folks stuck in the eigthies. > > > > > > The crowd of youngsters from 2020s are welcome to come aboard in their > > masses and take over from the old farts. > > I am from the seventies actually. The youngsters will take over but maintainers should be forward thinking. We do: I'm from the fifties. So by being stuck in the eighties, I'm looking forward 30 years -- not bad for an old grunt such as myself. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 09 12:58:28 2022 Received: (at 55862) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2022 16:58:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47612 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLUJ-0005k4-RO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:58:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37146) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLUI-0005jp-3d for 55862@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:58:26 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33176) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLUC-0007zh-Lu; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:58:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=mbAwzbqqHKlNT8qS8P7HigBv00LfXbJtU+2LQ+baw4Y=; b=YEuTzKN3PK/U ikDM6wRG1Qd8Np/rA5kSjGy/Z+Km/NrZ6Bak22gG1cvXFI0dGOUK/61ZPt2pODxdgfglcUjCDJiw9 9yH4QHuMr4wKIyFdzequhS0f1lW1gmwWHNvTvRjVWEyN5zwTWw1DDTecuZzGrg3GWvCH0qxq4u7ap I6wlnyYVpXorSD4d1CMwWJR5m69jMdg9MkTdbwcbLg9O5qwlapeG7rCNkNCAKIQnHL5jbsIx7UPBO gEuKWYPCxks/kvdJjhH33pP8X+y5y7bt/ewuRxa//cIFMX5v8OKC1V6ld5h/XfIPP5Qn/uGt2ETky jBFv9wVKYyc9tYjGJNeP0g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4535 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nzLUB-0000Lm-Md; Thu, 09 Jun 2022 12:58:20 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 19:58:17 +0300 Message-Id: <831qvx3hau.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: goncholden In-Reply-To: (message from goncholden on Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:44:27 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#55862: Removing indent-tabs-mode set to t by default References: <83h74u4csf.fsf@gnu.org> <8e7a8804-681f-200e-3c9b-c4947d059fe5@yandex.ru> <83edzx3jpz.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 55862 Cc: 55862@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 16:44:27 +0000 > From: goncholden > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 55862@debbugs.gnu.org > > The problem occurs mainly because tab widths are not consistent. As is known, tab widths relate directly with spaces, but that information is lost. If you work in an environment where people change the visual width of TABs, then indeed you will want not to use TABs. But that is not a given. 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