From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:15:18 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#54191 <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#54191 <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? Reply-To: bug#54191 <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 15:15:18 +0000 retitle 54191 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolut= e names? reassign 54191 emacs submitter 54191 Drew Adams severity 54191 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 27 17:21:05 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Feb 2022 22:21:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59511 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nORub-0003O1-Fr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:21:05 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:53804) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nORuZ-0003Ns-Jt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:21:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49908) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nORuY-0000gQ-Qj for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:21:03 -0500 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:44512) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nORuV-0004Ac-3W for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; 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b=F6cylacweJXV8xK99MIwDOrNiIpAqJZXLBXOZyRghd/RGrqyAD1Tqww9oafTRvh8vrr6H/s9aMRcdzKNAA3ouxCxsgJYBJwtJ0ZZRLYmhjhzDTYYlQlxugzBvlae8PjZXagRvvEP+OJuRwGo8g9UTXY/KhWI9pGGv/DJFtL8igU= Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by DM6PR10MB2425.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:ae::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5017.23; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 21:30:23 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f811:66c9:41ab:df79]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f811:66c9:41ab:df79%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5017.026; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 21:30:22 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Subject: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? Thread-Topic: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 307ef5fc-49ac-4f67-ea75-08d9fa385c98 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Feb 2022 21:30:22.7168 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: eH5YKdK6M+ulX6jRvlnRm50vNzy5BpyACySB7Iae8Ih8ww/0+HoZNNtMT6uig/4dk5pEcXbLXAQgQz2W8cPSSQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR10MB2425 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10271 signatures=684655 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=882 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202270146 X-Proofpoint-GUID: pxgKGMTbCMXFtEYcDE4jnP_A_vUF2-f8 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: pxgKGMTbCMXFtEYcDE4jnP_A_vUF2-f8 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.220.177.32; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) I check this Elisp manual node for `file-remote-p'. I try to figure out just what kind of file name is expected by the function. No clue. Same thing when I check the `C-h f' help (where the arg is called FILE). How am I to know what kind of file name needs to be passed to this function, e.g., whether I might need to first use `expand-file-name'? There might be more nodes with this problem under node `Files'; dunno. But at least please check this node and make its occurrences of FILENAME parameters clear in this regard. ___ >From the `C-h f' help I follow the files.el link to the `file-remote-p' definition. There I see that `find-file-name-handler' accepts the arg FILE. So the question then becomes what kind of file name (absolute or not) is expected/accepted by `find-file-name-handler'. `C-h f find-file-name-handler', likewise, says nothing about whether the name needs to be absolute. I look in the manual again, at a higher level, node `Files', hoping to maybe see some intro text saying that, by default, when the doc here talks about a file name it means an absolute file name (or a relative file name) - something, to let me know how to interpret all of the many references to file names in the 13 child nodes of node `Files'. I find no such general statement. If there is no general statement about how to understand a FILENAME arg then the description of each function that accepts a FILENAME arg should make clear what kind of name is expected. (And that's anyway preferable to expecting a reader to have come across a general default statement of how such parameters are to be understood. ___ Grepping the Elisp sources, and looking for `expand-file-name', I came across this in the definition of command `cd': (and (file-remote-p (expand-file-name dir)) (file-accessible-directory-p (expand-file-name dir)) (expand-file-name dir)) And that leads me to believe that `file-remote-p' doesn't, itself, expand the FILENAME argument. This info shouldn't be so hard to find. The descriptions of functions that accept a file-name arg should say whether they expect an absolute file name. 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Thread-Topic: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3f30bfae-e854-4899-0a24-08d9fa4275b2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Feb 2022 22:42:39.8242 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OIIS1dtwIUSJSarWXvqoo5gCXtUHi9WM7HphI3yimWm4h3R3IjSgW2DZApNZGAL1RraDC5Bb5XQLsN7494dQfQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR10MB3266 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10271 signatures=684655 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=822 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202270153 X-Proofpoint-GUID: POiqaUaSHt1OshtEE_MHteCdD5yIov_K X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: POiqaUaSHt1OshtEE_MHteCdD5yIov_K X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) OK, I see that the doc string of `file-remote-p' - but NOT its description in the Elisp manual - does at least call out what happens if the arg FILE is a relative file name: the function just returns nil. That doesn't invalidate the rest of what this bug report says. Each function's description should say what kind of file-name argument it expects, and if it handles both relative and absolute file names, how it does so - how it treats each kind. Users shouldn't have to search the Elisp code base to try to figure out whether they might need to apply `expand-file-name' to a file name before passing it to some function. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 03:03:15 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 08:03:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59926 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOazz-0000f9-MN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 03:03:15 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:59329) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOazy-0000eu-AW for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 03:03:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1646035384; bh=7dg1jugvixZ/Xtmn06D080n1Ach+GOant5GyJ7f7FcA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=QQ+FKudDVZMcIZf0UV6kezgbHP/PnqZlPaGUlmT2rv6cvwX9Dos1K3/qmWBABzUzV 9A2uVJytNdVxWyU1HOkLn+iHW+W19OIK6BN/eFJGJQLbNIy3WSDsSUZ/KJLubpkygs NdrG6VeVBMzuxGw74ejpY1R3ZikLk2jYT8Nu7IK0= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([213.220.148.135]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MXp5Q-1nhQaC2x2a-00YDxk; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:03:04 +0100 From: Michael Albinus To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:03:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:42:39 +0000") Message-ID: <87tucja05k.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:/iYp0ulv1CHyu9mvYoMLYGfAmJmRtmaJ8buxiT0LcyfUmoQh6eL wzvwki8n4ioBMA68Y5zCS2tdox6Ny8uar1VDkn5g2KeR0L5gUcxfJo7vOmqbGLneH/wXsSa pJDYNwI2kMbnqdz5Yhwb4p5iyOS+77nvThwN/ZUlBt87H9zRTrb/NjLsPV22nqqbKd0BMdK asrZPylPUaZQKed+nTF2A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:aqeCDp3/dVE=:CyuFGgG5vmkgus6+Ua08fq WmjYTvJfIOoer2NfpJvR9vHoH5fCfniohSuvTfum5nkCuQge3SPPUC3pjazhM8zS9lnXgLjz1 06e5ZguH2ThUY8MxeQJzoFHNIRACZWudWVA7GusG5r5Kz6vckepPs/NRscMIHDdnloINYVrI/ KdDCf5gYJdePhYdHeblrdxuw7xoLFAangwMmVYi5NMpMMjAs/zBMy9Rn20CswXBnnzbpOnARH leV7gdJY0gYSxjPx++Qkz5u8k2DtCq8f0tUsT9OZflKG+wXrby0cSra6lBS5t29B6pjOa/ju6 WXFfMtEKqtjeFamSzV2PBwC8ydaH9f5zqZXyNXPBXz8nQqBaEwT1L/jTNApRzr3vkNrm0Lk1R P1pG33IlAzlM4F/l7IhtSA8hWDYgkFJ9V6PWwiRqRkyvadWBbC4epUgkp7UOf3jbx8pfQ3gZR ubTMgxBDK17U5d1jH6bervgVLd7qWk/X2QlQSdHxYbuk7TNMDA9rEgfyMNM97iCLaLA/QLb94 7Qqrp5Yw+K2w4c3oJS50WoldATp1XI5ZAQqnDR731QIyIUMKNOj89p3jkF1VkXVRbRGPJ7E/I X1Ma8+6KsguABcrQnmgs9eOmiTYxbTVGb2ruzXpe2PYYAye7Aw2ElKcWrk3+xpeEE0DFdW1wZ FkVy5X24o4aoIKhmm9tb49pS7nB+71wZLoyCEaxaf5pBRd4qG1lmNR2LH+S+r5xJ4EsDNvynH DUqOH17jcvDcgNh7d13lrlnhPJb/p3aElOFRZO6VHjeKXJNWsU3sIB3Re+vHsD2ZqOYVtVS6L QtUQ7NCcfMyUuBG9jLoVbsiigigJaouaJGKmb2iCcNWKXk0xMb/UtlZhMAjZXyYYld3YSAo/N nRSAK+0FyUa8rtWJOTxuv5lQL47i9fR+hnw9V/ZFz6PFWahtwqKzJae8vHplhwSlLSdcVhHMY c8fubwbpscuWOVCogkMzF1/AG1v6sExucAG9bTizzi4LwIn6o4gr6cPxd7qSOpYrdEN5eG+4E 4Q5cVfYgfE/BHFlafK5qacBclm/PCDvCf+yOPs3JURGKQ9SmzyM4z+0wnO4418DChailu760t XZHPHvSaAd82qg= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: Hi Drew, > OK, I see that the doc string of `file-remote-p' - > but NOT its description in the Elisp manual - does > at least call out what happens if the arg FILE is > a relative file name: the function just returns nil. > > That doesn't invalidate the rest of what this bug > report says. Each function's description should say > what kind of file-name argument it expects, and if > it handles both relative and absolute file names, > how it does so - how it treats each kind. We could discuss forever, whether this information is needed in the Elisp manual. In my understanding, the manual is not an "extended docstring". It is rather meant to give another view, with the help of examples etc. IIRC, it isn't said anywhere, that a manual entry must be comprehensive w/o the docstring. > Users shouldn't have to search the Elisp code base > to try to figure out whether they might need to > apply `expand-file-name' to a file name before > passing it to some function. There's no need to read the implementation. The docstring of file-remote-p is clear about this point. Best regards, Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 04:33:26 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 09:33:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60049 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOcPG-0005AG-0g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:33:26 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34418) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOcPD-0005A0-Vq for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:33:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bKZt3NZxcxYTGTeWziyrpA5rdNmDGeZYYxBClL1WX2k=; b=WAf0Coui9fp/qmMZbXSW4gkJto q5ilXjL2+oee3ZD10YBfKay5CZLQTbbjJAhgF7IFJBFZGWw9kYTJ5TWup50hpNFMyAXoN26o0qvH/ mzZd7Ktg6oH/nCOiVW+AXqtvppD2ySVbeTM7umYZM+zoJ5naLvVJP0FnB6nUb7EImorg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nOcP4-0005ns-UG; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:33:17 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: X-Now-Playing: Xiu Xiu's _The Passenger_: "Ian Curtis Wish List SOLO" Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:33:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 27 Feb 2022 21:30:22 +0000") Message-ID: <87tucjqqsl.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Drew Adams writes: > I check this Elisp manual node for `file-remote-p'. I try to figure out > just what kind of file name is expected by the function. No clue. Same > thing when I check the `C-h f' help (where the arg [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: 54191@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Drew Adams writes: > I check this Elisp manual node for `file-remote-p'. I try to figure out > just what kind of file name is expected by the function. No clue. Same > thing when I check the `C-h f' help (where the arg is called FILE). > > How am I to know what kind of file name needs to be passed to this > function, e.g., whether I might need to first use `expand-file-name'? In Emacs 29 (at least), this section includes examples like: This identifier string can include a host name and a user name, as well as characters designating the method used to access the remote system. For example, the remote identifier string for the file name =E2=80=98/sudo::/some/file=E2=80=99 is =E2=80=98/sudo:root@localh= ost:=E2=80=99. So I think that's clear enough, and I'm closing this bug report. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 04:33:31 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 09:33:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60052 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOcPL-0005AY-CU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:33:31 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34432) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOcPJ-0005AD-SX for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:33:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ceCdjNpAst4JYFYlGxaAMJVwy+xba/h237Muz3VnNAU=; b=MMKnqZn6jo/cRNcSzx7xDgKeUH fbKMyaLCiZrsKMWFWe47yQsYqECvaZ61nR7DC2CcRluXAWp5ukuynTde9SUXfzvx4CjqDQlpi37jB 5DCqQWlaS4sqHh5sIAuUsGf/l97UTPQq4S3fLlk1GTnDrVkCyngJgTZq+2b+AQ3Vs/eY=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nOcPB-0005o0-O3 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:33:24 +0100 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:33:21 +0100 Message-Id: <87sfs3qqse.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #54191 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 54191 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 54191 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 08:47:11 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 13:47:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60557 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgMp-0008QA-Aa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:47:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33090) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgMm-0008Pv-RZ for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:47:09 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=40680 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgMh-0006vX-Gg; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:47:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=uHW4RmD2Kh2eSEt/s02hwG/Lzz9nJKvCsvqPSyz6fPA=; b=sa4W+F2zzHUX zhpvhW4TB7okaSJj6zt2K1EvRA0Y/UivP4K0YuWlCkM7jCmoYQzkbDXq2ZxEFBN9b3fNB/K9XKCvR fINYuSrECZbjka7uIGGPh5eeg5609lsz5ZY/kjmn1NhFKRmUOjZFt8sUdYC7V/YXxZ6RqDpZrm4Oa JWrzwSV8Q/prD4Yk6Ct66LPPl83rpLs17j9kcaM2B9p8HSe5JuODstnET99IOQlMxpxqaFnFp8x9Z lnq7tn1BF+de5KofLelbvdPYI+jRo+gCBMT6kx4k/E5OFI9Ynm2S+u+9GNK3S0Uv2BwId9Z/oS3IE w/J/LkxUaQrLKnsAtm7bNw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2965 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgMg-0007mQ-DM; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:47:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:46:50 +0200 Message-Id: <83h78jm7cl.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 27 Feb 2022 21:30:22 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: 54191@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 21:30:22 +0000 > > I check this Elisp manual node for `file-remote-p'. I try to figure out > just what kind of file name is expected by the function. No clue. Same > thing when I check the `C-h f' help (where the arg is called FILE). > > How am I to know what kind of file name needs to be passed to this > function, e.g., whether I might need to first use `expand-file-name'? > > There might be more nodes with this problem under node `Files'; dunno. > But at least please check this node and make its occurrences of FILENAME > parameters clear in this regard. > ___ > > >From the `C-h f' help I follow the files.el link to the `file-remote-p' > definition. There I see that `find-file-name-handler' accepts the arg > FILE. So the question then becomes what kind of file name (absolute or > not) is expected/accepted by `find-file-name-handler'. The first paragraph of the node "Magic File Names" says: The principal use for this feature is in implementing access to remote files (*note Remote Files: (emacs)Remote Files.). Did you follow the cross-reference? Because there you'd find the answer to your question, loud and clear. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 08:49:13 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 13:49:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgOn-0008VX-0Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:49:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33640) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgOj-0008VK-Tp for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:49:10 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=40690 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgOe-0007vl-JT; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:49:04 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=TSYT0fY4r9bcL/nWMEweIuEzHbgy7+Z4LNRovnxaDs0=; b=ZSRcEXRfbNxY 7R2IA/Dv1eavyV9Ucc+v+BFTMA6b6gq/NI6r+tS/MLYv4QmlH3ZaD3WWi8+0tFMcgGoXTfoVzzQen aqyGOX51EFfoJPFDkxDYxJGk832eT+TD5Y2VMrs9vzzcEixksmu+ttFR1N08WDADV61DnGV6TC/nA Vzm7jLBG1K2Nf10u6KnuZrRS5WLvK9r/djNLdmGkUGOmKEAUhWjEs/u3MOQRVzswohY5HgTyGsCMj HneaQfTCODt9j9M6sS5vdmV/uRujdQIA+yn4tvMBE32CHRdgEpGMGH4vUK9ZvUTIS40nYOJeV6o/Y fr3C0umApyZO8ovSSP27xg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3090 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOgOe-00082z-1o; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 08:49:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:48:54 +0200 Message-Id: <83fso3m795.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:42:39 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: 54191@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 22:42:39 +0000 > > Users shouldn't have to search the Elisp code base > to try to figure out whether they might need to > apply `expand-file-name' to a file name before > passing it to some function. It goes without saying that _every_ file-related function in Emacs accepts _any_ kind of file names: absolute, relative, you name it. What each function _does_ with each kind of file name is a different matter. In the specific case of file-remote-p this is described both in the doc string and in the manual. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ded4c2bc-9651-4dee-3eec-08d9fad701ce X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2022 16:26:00.3748 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: P23SwsL8g/0YXadzeCcqYZr9wf6LFeSWAmA6nVdprVMYcJ9aM37GqQRp0UdhsQ4ct2HK1tBulq0esckvMzgYwQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR10MB3758 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10272 signatures=684655 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202280086 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: qHB_audPv6tBPO09OPDE4QP_QuddNyg_ X-Proofpoint-GUID: qHB_audPv6tBPO09OPDE4QP_QuddNyg_ X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > OK, I see that the doc string of `file-remote-p' - > > but NOT its description in the Elisp manual - does > > at least call out what happens if the arg FILE is > > a relative file name: the function just returns nil. > > > > That doesn't invalidate the rest of what this bug > > report says. Each function's description should say > > what kind of file-name argument it expects, and if > > it handles both relative and absolute file names, > > how it does so - how it treats each kind. >=20 > We could discuss forever, whether this information is needed in the > Elisp manual. In my understanding, the manual is not an "extended > docstring". It is rather meant to give another view, with the help of > examples etc. IIRC, it isn't said anywhere, that a manual entry must be > comprehensive w/o the docstring. I don't disagree that the manual need not say the same things as a doc string. Sometimes it should say more, sometimes less, sometimes something different (but not contradictory). The "rest of what this bug report says" is not that the manual is missing something the doc strings say. Neither the manual nor the doc strings (except `file-remote-p', at least) state that the file name is expected to be absolute - or more precisely say what the behavior is for absolute vs relative. But that info is important for using the functions, IMO. All I was saying there was that (1) the doc string of `file-remote-p' does in fact say what happens differently for a relative file name - which is good, helpful, and (2) I noticed this happy exception after filing the general report that the doc (strings & manual) generally does NOT mention what kind of file name is expected, for functions that accept a file name. That general lack is the reported bug. That there are happy exceptions doesn't mean there aren't places where the doc (strings or manual or both) can be clarified to specify this. > > Users shouldn't have to search the Elisp code base > > to try to figure out whether they might need to > > apply `expand-file-name' to a file name before > > passing it to some function. >=20 > There's no need to read the implementation. The docstring of > file-remote-p is clear about this point. We agree, and that's exactly what I said in the mail you replied to. And thank you to whoever included that info in that particular doc string. 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Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 229ba65c-09c6-44f8-a9ff-08d9fad713e7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2022 16:26:30.7716 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: uIcjq02OBTVLrzvgDjgpSr3Q8W7SkbTO/wWyxQRZZjRfFsqbjEIqUQR+4nN+WnDJdA8el1zWZJpKd1zsef6kuw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR10MB2970 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10272 signatures=684655 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=952 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202280086 X-Proofpoint-GUID: NIPNjkwF6QiqSl6RWaD2RpKDPxikmox- X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: NIPNjkwF6QiqSl6RWaD2RpKDPxikmox- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > The first paragraph of the node "Magic File Names" says: >=20 > The principal use for this feature is in implementing access to > remote files (*note Remote Files: (emacs)Remote Files.). >=20 > Did you follow the cross-reference? Because there you'd find the > answer to your question, loud and clear. I don't think it does. No mention of absolute or relative in that node. But as I said in my second msg, there's no problem for the `file-remote-p' doc string. And it's not just about `file-remote-p'. The problem is more general, as reported. And the general problem involves doc strings and manual. ___ (Also, the Magic... node uses FILENAME for the file-name parameter for some functions and FILE for others. Not important, but consistency, at least locally to a node, wouldn't hurt.)=20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 11:26:42 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 16:26:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34613 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOirB-0004Uf-PM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:26:42 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:38138) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOir8-0004UP-01 for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:26:38 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246629.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 21SFY3Bg008468; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:37 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2021-07-09; bh=gugaVWk6H4Jf9PXKUgpYeGBlkzMcRXGxeNbQAJWmzLs=; b=ZS75flUhZjl+4fPLkdLcM2oTIhVNi8vEkDvWKcn1GObWct6meAhqgOqGzgeNp8tFT0tY uUPONJXBk8txmA79ObPr1v4QYETjATygvSHeljAZStSPcAX0+l+70mOdzCK3x3sjBhPi AHe5aYdw6Ei+MTDo5V+UbMiBiwETkD1WGCsikbOXNp29VRonO+KU3WozpbLtCCHznUh6 7rA/N4JxUMBksoYUsL23uCSTIdUvkK1JwysjmcpVdhuB7B9ve7P8r6bjLWuC2OMTa6WO P3y4C/SB6KKdGJzG23vsgy1oYHJr4+SA26sAVhQywhkt5wGSxGjMNJufSMYT54uzKh8L 8Q== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3eh15ag61p-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:32 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 21SGPtZc006575; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:26 GMT Received: from nam02-dm3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam07lp2049.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.56.49]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3ef9avrkg2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:25 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=MpQhkemm5fPUDeXgbP1LdJTK/MCwwTREc/JSMvDOMTUa+E1JFIXzXc+Iqz7HWhX5vyN0Eo4LyrDZuTgvhu4aCb56p0SybuKP/YNASI0BYgeXnBvGAwZduwuWi567LwhXGyim+2nkrom3/5eLgZZ6wDWf/tr6U32aSHBgdcQIBD9E+K2F8QBsJwefK5sSDlC+5fXqYauEiX13MJA2W4JEXalEj9TTO9FYArgpw26eRBxVMVa889sJaJk668IfaVNnKedp7KThrO0oasnf7n2fo8G2CYGMH6gBE2J2c4+vdMeRE2YaKyI8mdBeV0p/6ql9sg29vuEXxXd/uU/VXKCXuQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=gugaVWk6H4Jf9PXKUgpYeGBlkzMcRXGxeNbQAJWmzLs=; b=I+1OB/S1Fj6agSKGIE1jtgtqB16SCALHcgIePbtPN8PoZF0K3a/p7VpWwS0CdAZUyxA29ohgpCq+XmEeWCbXIE0cVUYR1xUKV4qR1LiDXivthU/Qbo12G/2f3hkK+ss+JQZ3lxV32aVXjEoOpqrW2iXYxgpfjgVVvfInEBKIH+1W9veOeITdhbqJSX8wURrHUTOWReFAFyeOUE4cNAh+uF2u1HzfLS4mNFZm3mbwPVorEK4CTowfkpjDoqk03KY1sVSs0iBqGvDtNmlnTjSQPbdUONga/KNdvPumBrrGhCSAJODbHoEpKulfhmTOASW776rQtc0HIRMGmRYSLfUdJg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=gugaVWk6H4Jf9PXKUgpYeGBlkzMcRXGxeNbQAJWmzLs=; b=FLMQAHn2bhocrRM6ULjqMtHdhLPoKiAcct5rlIgVAf2U2J15YBrWJpyXM9bjCoUjKF1NVOGqDc31bdwEer3kFZs5DcMBwPxy4+jPrg4R2Yq8i4hkFt4MA4aPUvdVq5FH8/wP6Pk/tj0PDYFqKon3buoTOrGUecYoNRF7kAmp0s8= Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by DM6PR10MB2970.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:64::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5017.21; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:24 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f811:66c9:41ab:df79]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f811:66c9:41ab:df79%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5017.027; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:24 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d3e802cb-1b19-4efb-1020-08d9fad70ff7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2022 16:26:24.1304 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: aUmhbKD0cJpKmGGUIu1fPwoo5FnIlYS1CLEfHIlVKRJb+ueNNMR53ZVhYH1t8B+Vi7DZnPewDGzuJPDCQ3w/5w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR10MB2970 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10272 signatures=684655 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=859 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202280087 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: AYPAcpmxEtYMeuZGTJxFUD9KC-3N6qZ7 X-Proofpoint-GUID: AYPAcpmxEtYMeuZGTJxFUD9KC-3N6qZ7 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Users shouldn't have to search the Elisp code base > > to try to figure out whether they might need to > > apply `expand-file-name' to a file name before > > passing it to some function. >=20 > It goes without saying that _every_ file-related function in Emacs > accepts _any_ kind of file names: absolute, relative, you name it. No, it doesn't go without saying. More importantly, I didn't say "accept", I said "expect". Users should be able to find out what the behavior is in each case: relative or absolute. > What each function _does_ with each kind of file name=20 > is a different matter. Yes, and that's exactly what I wrote about. The behavior for each kind of file name should be declared. That's the point of the bug report. > In the specific case of file-remote-p this is described > both in the doc string and in the manual. No, not the manual, I think (unless it was added recently). But the doc string, yes - it clearly calls out the different behavior for a relative file name. And that's exactly what I added in my second msg. But that's NOT the case for other functions (in this & other nodes of the manual, and in doc strings). That's what the bug report is about: doing just what you said: describe what the function does with each kind of file name. 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Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? 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Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2565 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOjI4-0002Pt-Mg; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:54:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:54:19 +0200 Message-Id: <837d9flyo4.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:30 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: <83h78jm7cl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: 54191@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:30 +0000 > > > The first paragraph of the node "Magic File Names" says: > > > > The principal use for this feature is in implementing access to > > remote files (*note Remote Files: (emacs)Remote Files.). > > > > Did you follow the cross-reference? Because there you'd find the > > answer to your question, loud and clear. > > I don't think it does. No mention of absolute or > relative in that node. It _shows_ them. > And it's not just about `file-remote-p'. The > problem is more general, as reported. And the > general problem involves doc strings and manual. There's no more general problem here. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 11:57:39 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 16:57:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34657 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOjL0-0005Ge-30 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:57:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52656) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOjKz-0005GT-Cl for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:57:29 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=43920 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOjKu-00037T-2A; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:57:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=zTRpD73Kqh8j9ue4ifbncMrS5TPsSl+7VMSfTeLfN1w=; b=KQ+ddt1Rw/Z1 lOCr4hOIu9hiQ22dJcKTfvk3XaKhdygak0Tn7Gx1rkL6eEiOL0WvZgpGcGr/vsQaTDVoHY7O4Uc42 2Jsizv8iN+/yiW6mUoMzVktfBNpZJjLnpvEplJxgcWlGf4jZworcUE9JIYCVOm48SHpP3Lzgw9bnv bnWUx66OWYNOTM0aT9/dZ+Qw5Us5WgkTazazlYe05yEpJUOLUypUpoAnJSw9kcoR1eH6w1skE52mM C4/kkstMq/fdu5I2sjHwFQJkMVtTozX0GWjqk7qiLJNfgpbe4mBT2Ow2P3eZEycAERXWTEjBPR68M UwS/aqk7iPXnmI0Hbg6ppg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2743 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOjKt-0005U9-Gk; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:57:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:57:15 +0200 Message-Id: <835yozlyj8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:24 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: <83fso3m795.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: 54191@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:24 +0000 > > > > Users shouldn't have to search the Elisp code base > > > to try to figure out whether they might need to > > > apply `expand-file-name' to a file name before > > > passing it to some function. > > > > It goes without saying that _every_ file-related function in Emacs > > accepts _any_ kind of file names: absolute, relative, you name it. > > No, it doesn't go without saying. > > More importantly, I didn't say "accept", I said > "expect". These functions don't "expect" anything. They handle any kind of file names. > Users should be able to find out what > the behavior is in each case: relative or absolute. The behavior is the same: each function does its documented job and returns the advertised value. > > What each function _does_ with each kind of file name > > is a different matter. > > Yes, and that's exactly what I wrote about. The > behavior for each kind of file name should be > declared. That's the point of the bug report. Then there's no bug, because this particular function's behavior is documented. > > In the specific case of file-remote-p this is described > > both in the doc string and in the manual. > > No, not the manual, I think (unless it was added > recently). Yes, in the manual as well. > That's what the bug report is about: doing just > what you said: describe what the function does > with each kind of file name. We already did. 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Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c7b0d4c5-9ee3-4ff5-dc5c-08d9faded9da X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2022 17:22:09.3381 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: tS8c3dFi77NJ5iw5jaTiwkxUBg0gO1xBD8WZyjYLqlgy1zCciBHg6iK9C30aQIr4MNia1RISRqymybvsOLNHmA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB3038 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10272 signatures=684655 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=743 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202280089 X-Proofpoint-GUID: cbedwmKfGa8bW9c-jT7cWATdMvu1cNQ9 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: cbedwmKfGa8bW9c-jT7cWATdMvu1cNQ9 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > > Did you follow the cross-reference? Because there you'd find the > > > answer to your question, loud and clear. > > > > I don't think it does. No mention of absolute or > > relative in that node. >=20 > It _shows_ them. I don't see any showing of a relative file name. Can you point to one there? > > And it's not just about `file-remote-p'. The > > problem is more general, as reported. And the > > general problem involves doc strings and manual. >=20 > There's no more general problem here. FILENAME in `Remote Files' FILENAME and FILE in `Magic File Names' FILENAME in `Visiting Functions' FILENAME in `Subroutines of Visiting' FILENAME in `Saving Buffers' FILENAME in `Reading from Files' FILENAME in `Writing to Files' FILENAME and FILE in `File Locks' ... and so on - lots of places. Similarly, doc strings of functions that accept file-name args. It's _not_ obvious what the behavior is. And yes, some functions do automatically apply `expand-file-name' to a FILE(NAME) arg. The question of whether a function does that, and more generally how a function handles a relative vs absolute file-name arg, is not nothing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 12:22:27 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 17:22:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34678 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOjj8-0005rR-Th for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 12:22:27 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:42506) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOjj7-0005rJ-0B for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 12:22:25 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246617.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 21SGTKBb015039; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:22:22 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2021-07-09; bh=WX/Pdu9n/b3gRmme5kE0HWG7Wnq/64Zkr2DFOVqgm88=; b=X5LmK4Cr8vKhv5eQ2RXSpWdoJxGivHF2Ikwdiu7lEh80jSmOIri/8RWrhRFu+f/S1hv/ tPMBGElyPC5kDWVHfB5SyeDRpdtW/Gf0LC40NsZHXdRc+nMIgzS0mEP1NYuQNDoZZwhs 7mdwif/MxP624EdABk7FLOo5muZqw3gaa+IAGKEqF4atudXeQyzVdXMeQBj7yS9TYsLq vc+HugztQ95mq4x4g+H5MmcAcwcQrSQb4+sAZVUzS4LMk/Vn8nbsVCKMu8lEKGkiXnoU QLznPYSvM/x4WXAQR2MSuxCENYo7psP9CA2WSnBZSRwmS2VwxoAwEqOj8IkbJOmYA9Zi AQ== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3eh1k40agm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:22:21 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 21SHFHii179784; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:22:14 GMT Received: from nam12-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam12lp2177.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.55.177]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3efdnkaeqd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:22:14 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=SNL1/vb8Dgu6UyH2Jee7tt4gmfsrufpm/r4vg/guK2hh+djOFJXRRI3a+5r+Cv/lz5AZM3x24fQ2Q/R0ndOR77Xrxy0HKNUOM3P8DMViY5hwMsJQV0F4z0as3pdQOYwooyfuXaAIB+tU3ZknFVkM0QZhpI+Nkjnb64bRV51JNxi2KOd22fKSDu2anjMxd0r0m2O2uxfxvcoBZ019woGcMErtpynQJyttZFrdzcDR/fYBo5vFv50lKz4QJ26ZdwcmN/qBiIMc9t1zfOKLhT4lRfuzKRLZmnCtmNS5d+sJKv3ZgpW2JHW6hSM5wUT1LmbL5ZlN4P1fHaRLrBhD1wuoTQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=WX/Pdu9n/b3gRmme5kE0HWG7Wnq/64Zkr2DFOVqgm88=; b=AYEjfghFi0bcXlBzCZJM2E/sR4FHgUS3U5zH7tejSWx0b+F0mBsSwpATe0vGJEondcPANhMq01MGldQGOiuimHPeb5hGC5YPSLzJdyoZHVvlbe90vpFGU1T47TXhIUKLefQy1Xujll5D1MFSkPUIsYBXhBljq9ZABxyoBJ8kdC3ETbuynJD7EAEwrl8quZQK/DD+FZqMl+z2etVaI40HdxSaKdi+ed86ncXILeIBN4X4hkPpuJPnIqvxNbMQhr0LPtMbB9Go3oEQCW1luTProTL0oQG0/VeFpQcXL+6uVZjChZzcathFS+agKk1UVbX5Cy29fo2QFM4YZ6rURyQP3A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=WX/Pdu9n/b3gRmme5kE0HWG7Wnq/64Zkr2DFOVqgm88=; b=Gw4odek1ke6cNTMNimgMVVSQHIDvPMYxPRBTlJ5N9ZIASab6aIO8wTiF4QBrJ8ARwksoxgjS8FDx0rtvzr6WhaEFOx5lSO0FEBX1pSbU3t1nNiVehovP9WVz0TMSmtBfocYteciT1nwzfKMae0dku6EFcTLVp4JtVGa5XjQhCXg= Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by SN6PR10MB3038.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:805:d2::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5017.22; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:22:12 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f811:66c9:41ab:df79]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f811:66c9:41ab:df79%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5017.027; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:22:11 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5e1b3339-95cb-4d46-d321-08d9fadedb61 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2022 17:22:11.9159 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /BAEKRCyLgLFAVQkfPjwPfqrYc3yug5rGd2zIHVuezhqTyxm4h9ZUDNmXwdMZW3w0MJffguVpe+v1IQ1Y4MBWw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB3038 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10272 signatures=684655 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=663 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202280089 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: K-N_SHoGaj2Yvu2dov7QkHCvnEIDnRBT X-Proofpoint-GUID: K-N_SHoGaj2Yvu2dov7QkHCvnEIDnRBT X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > They handle any kind of file names. The question is how they handle them - how they handle relative vs absolute names. > > Users should be able to find out what > > the behavior is in each case: relative or absolute. >=20 > The behavior is the same: each function does its documented job and > returns the advertised value. It no doubt does what's documented. But if what's documented is incomplete, then so will be your understanding of what the function does. > > > What each function _does_ with each kind of file name > > > is a different matter. > > > > Yes, and that's exactly what I wrote about. The > > behavior for each kind of file name should be > > declared. That's the point of the bug report. >=20 > Then there's no bug, because this particular function's behavior is > documented. In the doc string. Not in the manual. And (for the Nth time), this bug report isn't about "this particular function". I couldn't be clearer about that.=20 >=20 > > > In the specific case of file-remote-p this is described > > > both in the doc string and in the manual. > > > > No, not the manual, I think (unless it was added > > recently). >=20 > Yes, in the manual as well. Where? As one reader, I don't see that. And again, this bug report is _not_ about `file-remote-p'. > > That's what the bug report is about: doing just > > what you said: describe what the function does > > with each kind of file name. >=20 > We already did. I disagree. I wouldn't have filed the bug report if that were the case.=20 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 12:44:31 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 17:44:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34707 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOk4V-0006QH-KV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 12:44:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35494) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOk4U-0006Q5-61 for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 12:44:30 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=45252 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOk4O-0006HF-IG; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 12:44:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=y8OP8RuDFNZWMkSmfwMN94VUSVtNne2zDlnRyvKuIX4=; b=BL6m9Icwq0UO hqsQ6wGOWNUsn2Lba1sTMSFmclYHWRJCL62L0CgkI47Byt+vVHDN+MC8jRxvdCRY8ffmHAyZdhe+z y4gjwssJXpV/umW5Ihea5RrfT4MTt8AL79ALt00aIIHFg3l0Ddopti8ACV3uMzoMe5srqrJh07tf7 fm82R8/2ZbmWXRXtMY2Efx2c9+7fdHe2IQRnkcQppSW3gkVQwZO1ofLX7OE3tc415nU/LGJK/jTP/ KHcneSP1MqWUdsW0Ad+nzmV0z0FamEk/peUsnZcxMbTjqlj2W14fk4UnZsluz+QNyrJuKwz5M4Ule bgLFsDlVw4AhOhrnOH4svw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1641 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOk4O-0005Qs-0r; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 12:44:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 19:44:14 +0200 Message-Id: <8335k2naxd.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:22:09 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: <83h78jm7cl.fsf@gnu.org> <837d9flyo4.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: 54191@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:22:09 +0000 > > > > > Did you follow the cross-reference? Because there you'd find the > > > > answer to your question, loud and clear. > > > > > > I don't think it does. No mention of absolute or > > > relative in that node. > > > > It _shows_ them. > > I don't see any showing of a relative file name. Exactly. > > > And it's not just about `file-remote-p'. The > > > problem is more general, as reported. And the > > > general problem involves doc strings and manual. > > > > There's no more general problem here. > > FILENAME in `Remote Files' > FILENAME and FILE in `Magic File Names' > FILENAME in `Visiting Functions' > FILENAME in `Subroutines of Visiting' > FILENAME in `Saving Buffers' > FILENAME in `Reading from Files' > FILENAME in `Writing to Files' > FILENAME and FILE in `File Locks' > ... > and so on - lots of places. These are just references to file names. How is that a problem? > Similarly, doc strings of functions that > accept file-name args. It's _not_ obvious > what the behavior is. When you type a file name as an argument to a shell command, like this: my-program my-file what do you expect my-program to do when my-file is not an absolute file name? How do you expect it to interpret such a file name? > And yes, some functions do automatically > apply `expand-file-name' to a FILE(NAME) arg. Some? Anyway, that's the implementation. We aren't talking about the implementation. > The question of whether a function does that, > and more generally how a function handles a > relative vs absolute file-name arg, is not > nothing. >From "File Names" in the Emacs user manual: Emacs always assumes that any relative file name is relative to the default directory, e.g., entering a file name without a directory specifies a file in the default directory. This is so central to Emacs handling of file names that I'm astonished that someone who uses Emacs and programs for Emacs for so many years doesn't know that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 13:32:26 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 18:32:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34747 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOkor-0001iY-Ke for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:32:26 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:29458) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOkom-0001iE-CM for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:32:23 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246617.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 21SIJIk3010136; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:32:19 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2021-07-09; bh=3/rUXCixrjmAQH6Y9jKr7xwTV8D8fd9eKCPscyGwx+4=; b=VqoUSAoWvqSKsHZCLdT5RkpS071A0sMQADYEOXxg7uz3jcMXaedc0nhDASd/KG1ePia4 qS0HEJ2DJ2jv3sI/6v3GcsoC6VK3Q6eNtB791V3jRSMaGNxW1RTuuYNSbfYNt9DCIY9Z Jy3WcXVCaRBmkcpakZ/5WzMi837prpmrP1/84QlfTJlsg/qLL1DTttMR7XyUaEBH/ThN p50XtCf0mLqmiWpyNBi2EiDiL7lLB9u7I/AxLOcx5NTwvkg4ga/sulaVFiHBKlEQxYWN nMFkVJiaFCmrAuaZOc6dCENyHTnWqOubcOFarSfuNBKQzrwgyiSIiX//mQSbHpCrxdz6 eg== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3eh1k40ggf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:32:19 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 21SIPU0T147508; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:32:17 GMT Received: from nam10-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam10lp2105.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.55.105]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3efdnkd0hr-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:32:17 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Z/79iyMwRFOU1M4cvXe7SAPY7fHHMTVLUQ7IQODd0cUPPh+wvjwEhkE7WLbjSkNLKCgcPHEHIa/7QlpE7RiQhdhl82JIbvlo8xQm86ZgM0OEeHqR6J8Jl21uLr+O0sjyVdoNJDIPhfJlSp+8ZaynFyDENG5e+ItaMFZ3ZDjzhIjsdNGnlqzPXIdrnQRFxfbSgcOwVEOfTs4WMvYE2IB5LoFocPE55uwFF/mQrVbfAL6PyyMqvWthBh3B+txQ7WErQH3vE8Sey8vc0PQlUayQx9T2ukt7D5CIqI7u2UvzuycynkIiLtDb71hwfz1KhfitDaQzPgB1FpOfN7UEFldOTw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=3/rUXCixrjmAQH6Y9jKr7xwTV8D8fd9eKCPscyGwx+4=; b=F0wmpjYY8N98bSYovZK3LNmEVbHceq9v7xYYUv61ppIFq19FO4b/MNBoiA+0f+0fxFUtByNjS/tQz1BVLrgkCSr+cgxc1/euY6V/IrhVMCyMwtsttoko+Ss5jZpp+7mBd1tjwOo0OFBun9adTAns5KdnVbmgrBkeqzE11/RdDSBTbU/vFcp1tl1iBIq1cwK3EzElWKk8cW2wBsIGM7hC7R0DXhqw+aRrqKNMhH4zWpoet0j0EpVtyrPFKm56iFIgxP55f9xwoRsc9xHNNHhKmoLwMEw0EhYo8CV0KjFJ34QXvsjrOTi9tsNQmsM/XpZpj/AXxRFDpo6mv0sftdEiYw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=3/rUXCixrjmAQH6Y9jKr7xwTV8D8fd9eKCPscyGwx+4=; b=FM8iPvS4YF6Pwux1STFgjUTFwvi87l0BRtprRiEdUXGl94c+QuSmzZh2qnsw7869o/cW1bwN6SoxeTcRk4RRXiK7XEFYDYxVT9GVDuU8pEPXDSo0H+s/r7k0e/95XgLeh/IsTPBoeO/SzasoFxWj9re3u14CykCfu5u4kaqRdds= Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by BYAPR10MB2629.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:b7::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5017.25; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:32:15 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f811:66c9:41ab:df79]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f811:66c9:41ab:df79%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5017.027; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:32:15 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 119a9c37-3262-4fea-a2b9-08d9fae8a4b5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2022 18:32:15.1578 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bF2eAoJR+DblAZH71rfiqCwCxiLzIyFeXOOJdHEY5pdkcTfHLSdBXujFo93LJ5GkSxdZT/P78cu8aEOlTk8tAw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR10MB2629 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10272 signatures=684655 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=939 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2201110000 definitions=main-2202280093 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: wnVHtfrxuHYyNOyEW8tfDtZoTrBO4bZp X-Proofpoint-GUID: wnVHtfrxuHYyNOyEW8tfDtZoTrBO4bZp X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > > > No mention of absolute or relative in that node. > > > > > > It _shows_ them. > > > > I don't see any showing of a relative file name. >=20 > Exactly. ez> It shows them [absolute & relative file names]. da>> I don't see it showing relative names. ez>>> Exactly. Wow. Showing only absolute names doesn't say what happens when a relative name is passed. > > > There's no more general problem here. > > > > FILENAME in `Remote Files' > > FILENAME and FILE in `Magic File Names' > > FILENAME in `Visiting Functions' > > FILENAME in `Subroutines of Visiting' > > FILENAME in `Saving Buffers' > > FILENAME in `Reading from Files' > > FILENAME in `Writing to Files' > > FILENAME and FILE in `File Locks' > > ... > > and so on - lots of places. >=20 > These are just references to file names. How is that a problem? As the bug report requests: The doc should say how the function handles relative and absolute file-name args. ("How" meaning what it does, not "how" meaning the function's implementation.) It's a problem that we don't tell users this. > Anyway, that's the implementation. We aren't=20 > talking about the implementation. ?? We're talking about the behavior of a function; specifically, how it handles a file-name arg that is a relative or an absolute name. We're not (I'm not) talking about how the function is implemented. We're (I am) talking about its _behavior_ - what it does. > > The question of whether a function does that, > > and more generally how a function handles a > > relative vs absolute file-name arg, is not > > nothing. >=20 > From "File Names" in the Emacs user manual: >=20 > Emacs always assumes that any relative file name > is relative to the default directory, e.g., entering a file > name without a directory specifies a file in the default directory. >=20 > This is so central to Emacs handling of file names that I'm astonished > that someone who uses Emacs and programs for Emacs for so many years > doesn't know that. You know that I do know that. But you just love to poke, don't you, Eli? That text is irrelevant to this bug report. No one said that we don't tell users what relative and absolute file names are, or that a relative name is by default resolved using the value of `default-directory'. And you omitted the context of that sentence: "Whenever Emacs reads a file name using the minibuffer" That context is irrelevant to this bug. But I think you realize that. This bug is about documenting the behavior of functions that accept file-name arguments - calling out what they do for a relative vs absolute name. It's clear that you don't want to fix this bug. Fine; though that's too bad. But you apparently want to go on and on about this, even though the bug was closed. I've felt obliged to respond to your extraneous, irrelevant arguments. I hope you're done with them now - please consider giving it a rest. We both deserve that, I think. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 28 13:49:25 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2022 18:49:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34772 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOl5J-0002Bg-HS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:49:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50808) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOl5I-0002BV-4o for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:49:24 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=46170 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOl5C-0001eF-66; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:49:18 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=BmXC02baX0v8hR2S+gfc2qr03IahVKTAT4jglr1zmCg=; b=cApKJE33tXqM oLOiP/LkawBNoAykxx8Vjx5QIwq9Tq4/ROozJA487rZpZPQM+yq6thpCiiEXiPc0kB0lyWQFwZ4TP pAYB94wNamdTy3txtzUf5HL2Baq87rl79aK1CfEcnB3V1j/qHPBiCH2z6ciA9b6BRj55UGG6Q+fMV sLLALEhutTLJJykOMrmUuonUqajFuq2YugP5bhs5vAOSvTAhBEnC4QNUL2TkDCiJHU2AiH6yl5r2F vcoCCyBzuYVOiM9Lub8Rd6Um0Ajk1DF8Dpgi8dDAHdcklTd/+TtmET0M2GsQFWgS3xy1rBBBh0qcw IHlh5lGi7MDabeCqcb0ydA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1619 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOl5B-0008Iy-Gi; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 13:49:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 20:49:08 +0200 Message-Id: <83zgmaltcr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:32:15 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: <83h78jm7cl.fsf@gnu.org> <837d9flyo4.fsf@gnu.org> <8335k2naxd.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: 54191@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 18:32:15 +0000 > > > > > > No mention of absolute or relative in that node. > > > > > > > > It _shows_ them. > > > > > > I don't see any showing of a relative file name. > > > > Exactly. > > ez> It shows them [absolute & relative file names]. > da>> I don't see it showing relative names. > ez>>> Exactly. > > Wow. > > Showing only absolute names doesn't say what > happens when a relative name is passed. It tells you what are remote file names. > > > FILENAME in `Remote Files' > > > FILENAME and FILE in `Magic File Names' > > > FILENAME in `Visiting Functions' > > > FILENAME in `Subroutines of Visiting' > > > FILENAME in `Saving Buffers' > > > FILENAME in `Reading from Files' > > > FILENAME in `Writing to Files' > > > FILENAME and FILE in `File Locks' > > > ... > > > and so on - lots of places. > > > > These are just references to file names. How is that a problem? > > As the bug report requests: The doc should say > how the function handles relative and absolute > file-name args. I explained how. Let me repeat: Emacs always assumes that any relative file name is relative to the default directory, e.g., entering a file name without a directory specifies a file in the default directory. > > Anyway, that's the implementation. We aren't > > talking about the implementation. > > ?? > > We're talking about the behavior of a function; Saying that it calls expand-file-name is not describing the behavior, it describes the implementation which leads to the behavior. > specifically, how it handles a file-name arg > that is a relative or an absolute name. It handles them like every reasonable person will expect: relative file names are interpreted relative to the default directory. You want this to be told and retold, time and again, with every function we document? We say that once, and that should be enough, especially since the Emacs handling of relative file names is the only reasonable and natural handling of such file names. > > From "File Names" in the Emacs user manual: > > > > Emacs always assumes that any relative file name > > is relative to the default directory, e.g., entering a file > > name without a directory specifies a file in the default directory. > > > > This is so central to Emacs handling of file names that I'm astonished > > that someone who uses Emacs and programs for Emacs for so many years > > doesn't know that. > > You know that I do know that. You do? Then why do you keep asking about it as if you don't, as if you are confused, and as if this is undocumented? > That text is irrelevant to this bug report. No > one said that we don't tell users what relative > and absolute file names are, or that a relative > name is by default resolved using the value of > `default-directory'. There's nothing else to say about "behavior with absolute and relative file names", certainly not in general. > And you omitted the context of that sentence: > > "Whenever Emacs reads a file name using the > minibuffer" No, it's you who omitted the context. The full quotation is this: Regardless, Emacs always assumes that any relative file name is relative to the default directory, e.g., entering a file name without a directory specifies a file in the default directory. "Regardless", i.e. not just with respect to entering file names in the minibuffer, but in general. > It's clear that you don't want to fix this bug. > Fine; though that's too bad. There is no bug. You just keep arguing for the sake of an argument, although it should be clear to everyone that you have no case. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 01 06:55:19 2022 Received: (at 54191) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Mar 2022 11:55:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35729 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nP167-0006Bj-6t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 06:55:19 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:40771) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nP165-0006BU-SM for 54191@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 06:55:18 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1646135707; bh=8+dmSjONH5vcq0duETokcMpFnwnyLsv9v5mAfTAwLcU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=bRsU1ckgM0705sAFPimeX5J8CHYGe4bn6VsDfPJglF0amUCEMnXYV+/dG0xKw2hNM lQQ9flB3jwo4+BmtKRSX35qiu6TRiWJULKLdHalanrGgzZUjWlmZ/ePDKZFcBUrKAd hBMAK+15PXuVzpPL2y4ZucAa6UOkq0c/UOHiqbwQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([213.220.157.218]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1McYCb-1nvJyQ0NHJ-00cv1u; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 12:55:07 +0100 From: Michael Albinus To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#54191: 26.3; (elisp) `Magic File Names' FILENAME parameters: absolute names? References: <87tucja05k.fsf@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 12:55:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:26:00 +0000") Message-ID: <87pmn5anvq.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Q+YClrm8kv+SNsWzFGX6UyIaQzMDgiuRfc/ilTqLds2qYFiBnvE gm0AYRgrkbkAe/FlcdO0DgRWTsLzVFBwu6r59MHh3R1myD/br7Jc1eu2gsGJHN7jaz+k1rf arZrds3oCjIGexeMVHiEJcibl7kaiwUUSMxb7emFz5OwrJAqhup8lvlA7rcjUtGeP6/Pduc J6KPRf4MCT7aqxxgKtwnQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:bdxXp5PWKj0=:qkx6t1L76ooJMQpKSghTjt UFofb5ylFRSpx8rbuGipSLJqRqpisNfCmWhzuyVrdIBLhJ9kiLCGFDxAyDGRTGuehiyX0bPv4 iY+8XktCkHYCK7RavrqfYuMFwsOoQQ9pgQcYTXH78PeoVRtU5scBxj+yqMR+6Gt7i1hBpGL1+ DUXCol1lLVFyKIt+GUHxAuqDNEeQoiKQYn7RSS9BRgvyHuU0HVIgEfAMzUqdTKwA5GsAZijY4 Elrplxtiixe0Hb8pArH+/O+P6oSUt0axW4WlZOA9QFDcNqli30ogVJrHQjDa/I/tKLboV03ws qTr7nJWIiKMh0sgmedPLrnjQPcbQhfTajnM15Xelm664SIitFbcLHVVvCRt/VAdu6Ej6DbtQV 1vtG0mRRkmYXXLePVXaKEvV58VmDun9thqmBu4FtglXatY4VnnmrSvbaJfjkBp5cADxxOB5K6 IwvyVE+a6f/oaqlEns4c2fEcvGnufXIVeux+lL2g0e8AmdjQRdBjufvK36hfYNjfKs6PZ8de9 NI/c5/P24BpMVMZWvSRtKnn9NigawFmKSlIt3zhizBvunlzSWdrkHCYTZw2BfD4vozWXWvpK9 Plc38d1STo/gkKD7gT5ZHI/WY8gVlvzn6HZrAPBqNN9vySI6DRlBIHwVXrJ/JB7207XF1ybOK tS2J/N8jCU7wKzbnD3B+o0Ip5U4q6CoZVsbzLW5OSurlBNjNrF/PWYZ7Hixf7+poURIJxRjuH sYqHsEVhDVmkMgXF969l5NM+i1ONtoAQuJ5/kc1tIA4h49Q8225UHjkaXS5Ozt0lcjSIYuI1I Zyw0tBpHvxWbvBpfy7SHl2pRY6X/7xRxJWlO01NegeFxpQDrIHAnheR4GlVUvQfotB1VcsGau ClYInfYebAfl3txtQt/qC6R/MCAk2paXAhUOy+++2k02swW+8qhTtbcNuK1wDbumbqTbUUTc6 /dpt7m2NasqaDHlHjrGEefVLElmFsNGem8TD7DnJU+wdn38JXfzduPujjdJn4DGvAxUqbzpqL 0CvISxgULiV2BmUswdN8q5V5vYjl0fZhZyqxMmLXnZjiz8gioPqsZT/nIrd29WA7hnOvLpjjg iJqUZ46pP+0Fq4= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 54191 Cc: "54191@debbugs.gnu.org" <54191@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: Hi Drew, > Neither the manual nor the doc strings (except > `file-remote-p', at least) state that the file name > is expected to be absolute - or more precisely say > what the behavior is for absolute vs relative. But > that info is important for using the functions, IMO. > > All I was saying there was that (1) the doc string > of `file-remote-p' does in fact say what happens > differently for a relative file name - which is good, > helpful, and (2) I noticed this happy exception after > filing the general report that the doc (strings & > manual) generally does NOT mention what kind of file > name is expected, for functions that accept a file name. > > That general lack is the reported bug. That there > are happy exceptions doesn't mean there aren't places > where the doc (strings or manual or both) can be > clarified to specify this. Except the file-remote-p case, there is no need to say something special about relative or absolute file names in case of file operations working remotely. They simply work the same way in the local or remote case. (If not it would be a bug.) Best regards, Michael. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:15:18 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 11:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator