From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:19:06 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#53977: Improve markup in man pages Resent-From: Mario =?UTF-8?Q?Bl=C3=A4ttermann?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 19:19:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 53977 X-GNU-PR-Package: coreutils X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 53977@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.164477993329809 (code B ref -1); Sun, 13 Feb 2022 19:19:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Feb 2022 19:18:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38919 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nJKOa-0007kc-Lo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:18:53 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:60752) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nJEn7-00027q-Ky for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2022 08:19:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40938) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nJEn6-0000LK-V3 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2022 08:19:49 -0500 Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::436] (port=46597 helo=mail-pf1-x436.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nJEn3-0002Q2-Bk for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2022 08:19:48 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id i21so23168740pfd.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2022 05:19:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZgkNejrq+h5cG7ShCCnFpEBUaFW4ykyibbjABgI2ZoU=; b=P59/69RJnR55Lu1HNEcownICrZfIOSA98sZQWcqJbPhCrcjMLG39IwCW2OkOM7j6ad CISHzp7XXOoHefeBzB8imik1qBfFKxDDtAE6DAmOScCvR+pvYX+IZZpoUOsI17Ysd4Vl 36xKxCld+hczkS8OWlzrGIkdzZyRFAK30KyvWE8VH2GcChs7sfdKu8KXydUuI+FIjc9V aJpfTMIoeMVzPQQpFnK9CQSM4NNFZFe+H4zjhIZNdkWh8gDOEHe3bI/VYsg5vlmLWlZj DhaiMeNS1gQgFW4G3nsG26jyFupGmA/EbjYTnudRq+kXWBTkKFuWd+bRjjPbNzo3gHLY LZTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZgkNejrq+h5cG7ShCCnFpEBUaFW4ykyibbjABgI2ZoU=; b=7iEbrOAtcrdJec8R1nCT3RB693OHM5gxkJJCrjx/nfr1QY1Twt7HrmxkMIM88fU7N/ 4MCF5cQGfXbtLOS2VW7gk7tfwPe1/eRwbAhiEtzkJe846QbtnWIWxOhoSaXb7Pu1LgLH XOJ2DortXz6tFAMYV9Mv40+eqt0BjLFM0gAo+fte8KVZWnsmS1WxK350SlUcZSSlORqu 5PYaWUpWwpwSCEyHqhKQoRAS4rZONkFKlCQu9MAIYGGo9Ns9RvQu/XnbWMuA2c9ZY+ZX jWk/nQEkA8PTzE9Xdx6SOPj0W7bYtlrZ4mZmAbi+JTDSFWNsuc8J8KH6wIFw7qS3Wgd5 ODXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336kFdAJVWzfkv7cYiX/UlgnvSKNmw6EVGT0xI9lD+fNsDMYlXN zozqeLrWZ7fLwO0lmD9bCTPyv3wBGvah8OqyJZOFuW7iFUE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzBIWsQ5oe3nOUx10MKXniHuxHQLsgTD5n15SZL751gui+nemXh6udaNjlw9Rc9NMxF9q0Rie1AUEmzmOvGXQk= X-Received: by 2002:a65:4c87:: with SMTP id m7mr8055709pgt.509.1644758383545; Sun, 13 Feb 2022 05:19:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Mario =?UTF-8?Q?Bl=C3=A4ttermann?= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:19:32 +0100 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="00000000000031a04b05d7e627f4" X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::436 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::436; envelope-from=mario.blaettermann@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x436.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -4 X-Spam_score: -0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.785, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:18:43 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --00000000000031a04b05d7e627f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, the SEE ALSO sections in the man pages contain links which will be pulled in from *.x files by help2man. While help2man evaluates the Groff markup from --help and --version output, it doesn't bother with the markup in the *.x files. See the attached patch. The bold formatting of the links is especially useful in HTML output (but also in terminal output); the links become clickable and point to the respective man page in online collections [1]. You can test the behavior in the German version, where the links are already properly formatted [2]. [1] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1 [2] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1.de Best Regards, Mario --00000000000031a04b05d7e627f4 Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset="US-ASCII"; name="seealso-markup.diff" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="seealso-markup.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: f_kzlaned20 ZGlmZiAtLWdpdCBhL21hbi9hcmNoLnggYi9tYW4vYXJjaC54CmluZGV4IDBhMzEwYjQxZi4uNDg3 MzE4MjA3IDEwMDY0NAotLS0gYS9tYW4vYXJjaC54CisrKyBiL21hbi9hcmNoLngKQEAgLTMsNCAr Myw1IEBAIGFyY2ggXC0gcHJpbnQgbWFjaGluZSBoYXJkd2FyZSBuYW1lIChzYW1lIGFzIHVuYW1l IC1tKQogW0RFU0NSSVBUSU9OXQogLlwiIEFkZCBhbnkgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBo ZXJlCiBbU0VFIEFMU09dCi11bmFtZSgxKSwgdW5hbWUoMikKKy5CUiB1bmFtZSAoMSksCisuQlIg dW5hbWUgKDIpCmRpZmYgLS1naXQgYS9tYW4vYjJzdW0ueCBiL21hbi9iMnN1bS54CmluZGV4IDVh ODU3Y2ExNS4uYmI1Y2FiYjViIDEwMDY0NAotLS0gYS9tYW4vYjJzdW0ueAorKysgYi9tYW4vYjJz dW0ueApAQCAtMyw0ICszLDQgQEAgYjJzdW0gXC0gY29tcHV0ZSBhbmQgY2hlY2sgQkxBS0UyIG1l 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[95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r11sm7394179wmb.19.2022.02.14.04.15.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Feb 2022 04:15:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 12:15:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:97.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/97.0 Content-Language: en-US References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig?= Brady In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 13/02/2022 13:19, Mario Blättermann wrote: > Hello, > > the SEE ALSO sections in the man pages contain links which will be > pulled in from *.x files by help2man. While help2man evaluates the > Groff markup from --help and --version output, it doesn't bother with > the markup in the *.x files. See the attached patch. The bold > formatting of the links is especially useful in HTML output (but also > in terminal output); the links become clickable and point to the > respective man page in online collections [1]. You can test the > behavior in the German version, where the links are already properly > formatted [2]. > > [1] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1 > [2] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1.de Sorry. I'm still not convinced on this. It seems like a layering violation to stipulate a style here. The renderer should have enough context to highlight appropriately. See for example: https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/sort.1.html Note the man7.org renderer only highlights the SEE ALSO references, when ideally it would highlight all instances of this pattern. Anyway handling references outside of the SEE ALSO section, is another reason to have the renderer do this consistently. See for example all the appropriately highlighted references in: http://man.he.net/?topic=sort§ion=all https://man.cx/sort thanks, Pádraig From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:19:06 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#53977: Improve markup in man pages Resent-From: Mario =?UTF-8?Q?Bl=C3=A4ttermann?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 53977 X-GNU-PR-Package: coreutils X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 53977@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: man-pages@man7.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Cc: 53977@debbugs.gnu.org, man-pages@man7.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.164485132412285 (code B ref -1); Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:09:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Feb 2022 15:08:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42284 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nJcy3-0003C3-0V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:08:44 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:54172) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nJbmE-00025p-00 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 08:52:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37854) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nJbmC-0004ZO-UW for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 08:52:25 -0500 Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029] (port=51856 helo=mail-pj1-x1029.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nJbmA-0000lo-CM for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 08:52:23 -0500 Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id y9so14627198pjf.1 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 05:52:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EwjAQQZC6ye7T6wlXaKDqIyktKKMarFKmegIWLnCznY=; b=mHYXg80//5qwl6BHCPxHATpKV3bEgjONAUIxXGagAlPkFp/A4CI+yHXIMaQyDbxqhF D/8bBclXuQQ55wd70+8SQxCUQkOi+xwsSSZjpFcHreldr0IDkX7XyuGPbkAFBuQnpSRz osnCMyT7KmSQ0CCpojBWS2VR3H3I5cGcXcXR0pIT8BTZT3naHEAXbpMLlPXw/rphu17s 0NElHjMmLKas2xFV0W8LljH02azQngnEUWrIdHPIRG2ye4Pcsh2jOE9lOrGzJureZcMF epvSDhZwwLSZ7o5ynUIfPA5w4XOFpY1/7ngii9MaiOyYhpqegZwNBNvi2+4TYGLhjgQo xoPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EwjAQQZC6ye7T6wlXaKDqIyktKKMarFKmegIWLnCznY=; b=6yKR7INUDuplAIK9l7b5B6bYI0Z0DJ2T/PvmiLFwV5hr/8SUz4wx8v3ACsWiBQGQYf FyXCfr7sBSP+YgqH/BUXnNYegAu0fH/mJPTjfiGE85YKdwDKvXy590kvvhMEgQsFPmAm BPwLJ1EjiRc+2q8+oJ/3XkrtNeEf8/xsJ7+ga76M6n8zIIKDciSiVoE2yodyRtVTIfhn 6dOqG3+Vei9fYjcV6zgV6JecTF4v8y4SgPwNH7N4bHf48o05URHmfvmoTgyE3aZchBCX BFPPfFKs07n6c7aTwjaVlK9Gl0OUgvjZt+9fG+nB4IdvlVLW42zkh9zNujJv72ve551c B8sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532cctI+Nx652KEs2kCtzqBeziOCuIS2B9f71fLFwdwFpS2w1hUr k7vobXH/M9RVXGo4/jddYjH0f/j607H1ckZd7SUD44V2fZI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyou7SBZyPIU9dSHlvkVVZupcxPotcBCedNquGy1Rbb0B6fCqhIXmLQEgiYaAemuOuPvxx0CGbx7gk9adjl0eI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9346:: with SMTP id g6mr14600302plp.156.1644846739486; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 05:52:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mario =?UTF-8?Q?Bl=C3=A4ttermann?= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 14:52:08 +0100 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029; envelope-from=mario.blaettermann@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1029.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.635, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:08:41 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hello P=C3=A1draig, Am Mo., 14. Feb. 2022 um 13:15 Uhr schrieb P=C3=A1draig Brady : > > On 13/02/2022 13:19, Mario Bl=C3=A4ttermann wrote: > > Hello, > > > > the SEE ALSO sections in the man pages contain links which will be > > pulled in from *.x files by help2man. While help2man evaluates the > > Groff markup from --help and --version output, it doesn't bother with > > the markup in the *.x files. See the attached patch. The bold > > formatting of the links is especially useful in HTML output (but also > > in terminal output); the links become clickable and point to the > > respective man page in online collections [1]. You can test the > > behavior in the German version, where the links are already properly > > formatted [2]. > > > > [1] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1 > > [2] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1.de > > Sorry. I'm still not convinced on this. > It seems like a layering violation to stipulate a style here. > The renderer should have enough context to highlight appropriately. > See for example: > > https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/sort.1.html > Maybe some renderers are smart enough to highlight this. But it shouldn't be up to the developers of such renderers to apply missing formattings virtually. > Note the man7.org renderer only highlights the SEE ALSO references, > when ideally it would highlight all instances of this pattern. > Anyway handling references outside of the SEE ALSO section, > is another reason to have the renderer do this consistently. > See for example all the appropriately highlighted references in: > > http://man.he.net/?topic=3Dsort§ion=3Dall > https://man.cx/sort > Yes, but this doesn't work in all imaginable cases, because the renderer needs to be able to evaluate if it is a link or not. In your example, "shuf" is a link because it is tagged with the section number, but this wouldn't, then "shuf" would be as plain as other words. See the "diff3.1" man page [1]: -e, --ed output ed script incorporating changes from OLDFILE to YOURFILE into MYFILE If "ed" would be "ed(1)" then it would be detected as a command name here, but it isn't. Well, the best solution would be to dig in the Help2man code and try to improve the detection of parts worth to be formatted - provided solid Perl skills. But this would be outside of the topic of this bug report; let's go back to the SEE ALSO links. The man page man-pages(7) says [2]: =C2=BBThe name of the command, and its options, should always be formatted = in bold.=C2=AB In fact, the SEE ALSO links are also command names, although not the command the current man page describes. Let's have a look at other projects. The GRUB developers also use Help2man to generate man pages dynamically, and they use *.h2m files to feed Help2man, like Coreutils' *.x files do. An example [3]: [NAME] grub-editenv \- edit GRUB environment block [SEE ALSO] .BR grub-reboot (8), .BR grub-set-default (8) It seems to be obvious for them to format the links bold. But it is not special to Help2man-based projects to do so. Example from GNU Grep [4], which uses a static man page: .SH "SEE ALSO" .SS "Regular Manual Pages" .BR awk (1), .BR cmp (1), .BR diff (1), .BR find (1), .BR perl (1), ... Another example from the kernel's man pages [5]: .SH SEE ALSO .BR memusage (1), .BR mtrace (3) And last but not least, an example from an Mdoc based man page from FreeBSD= [6]: .Sh SEE ALSO .Xr comm 1 , .Xr join 1 , .Xr uniq 1 I could mention lots of similar examples, but just open an arbitrary man page in your terminal with "man", not in Vim; you will see that (almost =E2=80=A6) all SEE ALSO links are formatted bold. With the bold formatting (and correct placing of the section number), you make sure that *all* renderers, both the simple ones like "man" in the terminal and the advanced HTML/DVI/PDF/whatever renderers, format the links correctly. The additional lines in the *.x files don't eat up lots of disk space or other resources. Please think about to apply my patch once again. [1] https://man.cx/diff3#heading3 [2] https://man.archlinux.org/man/man-pages.7.en#Formatting_conventions_for= _manual_pages_describing_commands [3] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/grub.git/tree/docs/man/grub-editenv.h= 2m [4] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/grep.git/tree/doc/grep.in.1#n1359 [5] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages.git/tree/man1/m= trace.1#n64 [6] https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/main/usr.bin/sort/sort.1.in= #L580 Best Regards, Mario From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:19:06 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Mario =?UTF-8?Q?Bl=C3=A4ttermann?= Subject: bug#53977: closed (Re: bug#53977: Improve markup in man pages) Message-ID: References: <6fe35dfd-e2aa-3576-6d55-8ac148b2ab78@draigBrady.com> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 53977 X-Gnu-PR-Package: coreutils Reply-To: 53977@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 23:01:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1644879662-3541-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1644879662-3541-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #53977: Improve markup in man pages which was filed against the coreutils package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 53977@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 53977: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D53977 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1644879662-3541-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 53977-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Feb 2022 23:00:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42938 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nJkKh-0000uK-TD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 18:00:43 -0500 Received: from mail-wr1-f53.google.com ([209.85.221.53]:35538) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nJkKc-0000u3-Rg for 53977-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 18:00:34 -0500 Received: by mail-wr1-f53.google.com with SMTP id v12so29244570wrv.2 for <53977-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:00:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=YyIviZ6TrkMpyXWNSzXPpO6NiiMzxzK66S9XqQjKS1g=; b=aKcFLHvkddaU6XHvuBpmeqpdvyvN3YAZc16DnuRQ860vdt6xM7N853SzovbEit9zm0 T8JELg6Gt0Zjf35rH/N3XE9MbxLjX/extMDwt3/Q8N9SlePmus19/EdLOkChgkgCIrzw bBG+beOSI8IxRDcpZVdjco8QL7aBHHag3NKRaTwY4g9EJkMssIMn/GUG9+UwKo3AMxqe 9eNnoroMk39699z3OjtXqM0EkX79Bv0I2EvCdxz4TTpe/goouInTJSX65V4ftivtomNz gXLAVcX92zLzgdkSUcHVUNTdHWkhC5SpAW1td3QUyKdtSI46uB6LBaoVBTpotOJpPG+q Y0LQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent :subject:content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=YyIviZ6TrkMpyXWNSzXPpO6NiiMzxzK66S9XqQjKS1g=; b=EpRBLL2uMcg9JeeupAq4eAB5AXrD8fKqt+BxWL4FMRVmXhNXM+aC5gttFH4iiJGJAs 0LOwrts/kMVvYxB8llGhLdXmc6TEdF0cKPcWWhs2J++/waFqNS2XHSbH+IARVSFXaAYV 9BJneqV/xaZXI7q/KNZnq41sRTBdYPHY1ZGIZFZTW6Qc365IsfxGk6U6lyrKZ2mZBz23 fLd9dOJpuMi9y9PCVpB68Ls9LuL96RrXCVpIGink8tZqyS7IcZzpI5zVW0GnyKb8Ytoh TiQlWH3mW2guoIzEmA+gEx4PEIUcw9GnG2A76YNp25rhGeV7E0WZDI4AJsCOZcl5syFk jqsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533mcjlpbnm11zMSetGvRSG7tZbghab0QEEGGsLndIL6lWUAj9WP 4ehybi+EO6Lp2byNbEluI2U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwRD7OD40toAQayJInO0M8mdQIfxg9G+mw3EQX31uUj2vIvv12xQqNxyrjnxjoKBwCEO9pLLQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:64a8:: with SMTP id m8mr909007wrp.310.1644879624430; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (95-44-90-175-dynamic.agg2.lod.rsl-rtd.eircom.net. [95.44.90.175]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id p7sm5722754wrr.95.2022.02.14.15.00.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:00:23 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------hcQFEGZP0MJptaKeiWGttEAB" Message-ID: <6fe35dfd-e2aa-3576-6d55-8ac148b2ab78@draigBrady.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 23:00:22 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:97.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/97.0 Subject: Re: bug#53977: Improve markup in man pages Content-Language: en-US To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mario_Bl=c3=a4ttermann?= , 53977-done@debbugs.gnu.org References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=c3=a1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 53977-done Cc: man-pages@man7.org, Brendan O'Dea X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------hcQFEGZP0MJptaKeiWGttEAB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 14/02/2022 13:52, Mario Blättermann wrote: > Hello Pádraig, > > Am Mo., 14. Feb. 2022 um 13:15 Uhr schrieb Pádraig Brady : >> >> On 13/02/2022 13:19, Mario Blättermann wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> the SEE ALSO sections in the man pages contain links which will be >>> pulled in from *.x files by help2man. While help2man evaluates the >>> Groff markup from --help and --version output, it doesn't bother with >>> the markup in the *.x files. See the attached patch. The bold >>> formatting of the links is especially useful in HTML output (but also >>> in terminal output); the links become clickable and point to the >>> respective man page in online collections [1]. You can test the >>> behavior in the German version, where the links are already properly >>> formatted [2]. >>> >>> [1] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1 >>> [2] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1.de >> >> Sorry. I'm still not convinced on this. >> It seems like a layering violation to stipulate a style here. >> The renderer should have enough context to highlight appropriately. >> See for example: >> >> https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/sort.1.html >> > > Maybe some renderers are smart enough to highlight this. But it > shouldn't be up to the developers of such renderers to apply missing > formattings virtually. Thanks for the consideration on this. I'm not strongly against hardcoding the formatting, but I do think it's worth discussing the need. Note we discussed this previously at: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/coreutils/2021-01/msg00008.html The summary there was things have trended over time from a mixture of none,italic,bold style references to mostly bold. >> Note the man7.org renderer only highlights the SEE ALSO references, >> when ideally it would highlight all instances of this pattern. >> Anyway handling references outside of the SEE ALSO section, >> is another reason to have the renderer do this consistently. >> See for example all the appropriately highlighted references in: >> >> http://man.he.net/?topic=sort§ion=all >> https://man.cx/sort >> > Yes, but this doesn't work in all imaginable cases, because the > renderer needs to be able to evaluate if it is a link or not. In your > example, "shuf" is a link because it is tagged with the section > number, but this wouldn't, then "shuf" would be as plain as other > words. See the "diff3.1" man page [1]: > > -e, --ed > output ed script incorporating changes from OLDFILE to YOURFILE into MYFILE > > If "ed" would be "ed(1)" then it would be detected as a command name > here, but it isn't. But it isn't bold either. I suggest this page should be updated to use "ed(1)". > Well, the best solution would be to dig in the > Help2man code and try to improve the detection of parts worth to be > formatted - provided solid Perl skills. But this would be outside of > the topic of this bug report; Yes a `help2man --bold-refs` option seems useful. It give the option to apply the formatting, and more centrally, rather than inconsistently sprinkled through all man pages. Also this would be the only way to consistently style all references in coreutils, since some are output to the terminal through --help. > let's go back to the SEE ALSO links. The > man page man-pages(7) says [2]: > > »The name of the command, and its options, should always be formatted in bold.« > > In fact, the SEE ALSO links are also command names, although not the > command the current man page describes. The bold here is pertaining to styling of the headers of the page, rather than to any command references in general IMHO. In general bold text interspersed in other text on the terminal can be quite distracting to read. Some terminals can make it bigger, brighter, blurrier, ... > Let's have a look at other projects [that hardcode bold references] > grub, grep, kernel. I see Paul added the grep markup recently in a seemingly unrelated change: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=grep.git;a=commit;h=fe630c9f > I could mention lots of similar examples, but just open an arbitrary > man page in your terminal with "man", not in Vim; you will see that > (almost …) all SEE ALSO links are formatted bold. I did check also, and see lots of inconsistencies. BTW re vim, the match for references is: syn match manReference "\f\+([1-9][a-z]\=)" > With the bold > formatting (and correct placing of the section number), you make sure > that *all* renderers, both the simple ones like "man" in the terminal > and the advanced HTML/DVI/PDF/whatever renderers, format the links > correctly. "correctly" is a strong word here. > [1] https://man.cx/diff3#heading3 > [2] https://man.archlinux.org/man/man-pages.7.en#Formatting_conventions_for_manual_pages_describing_commands > [3] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/grub.git/tree/docs/man/grub-editenv.h2m > [4] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/grep.git/tree/doc/grep.in.1#n1359 > [5] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages.git/tree/man1/mtrace.1#n64 > [6] https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/main/usr.bin/sort/sort.1.in#L580 I've attached a patch to implement help2man --bold-refs. Brendan is that something that might be added to official help2man? coreutils enables this by default for generated man pages, and it can be disabled if needed with: ./configure --disable-bold-man-page-references Also attached is an ancillary patch I noticed with wrong section for exec(3p) Marking this bug as done. cheers, Pádraig --------------hcQFEGZP0MJptaKeiWGttEAB Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=UTF-8; name="man-bold.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="man-bold.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSBjMTk3ZDdjZGQ4MzMzYjkzY2MyMjBkN2M4ZThmNzEyYmE0MzFmZjRjIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiA9P1VURi04P3E/UD1DMz1BMWRyYWlnPTIwQnJhZHk/ PSA8UEBkcmFpZ0JyYWR5LmNvbT4KRGF0ZTogTW9uLCAxNCBGZWIgMjAyMiAyMTozNjoyOSAr MDAwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIGRvYzogdXNlIGJvbGQgc3R5bGUgZm9yIG1hbiBwYWdl IHJlZmVyZW5jZXMKCkl0J3MgbW9yZSBjb21tb24gdG8gdXNlIGJvbGQgc3R5bGUgdGhhbiBu b3QsCmZvciByZWZlcmVuY2VzIHRvIG90aGVyIG1hbiBwYWdlcy4KSWRlYWxseSBlYWNoIG1h 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autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:18:43 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --00000000000031a04b05d7e627f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, the SEE ALSO sections in the man pages contain links which will be pulled in from *.x files by help2man. While help2man evaluates the Groff markup from --help and --version output, it doesn't bother with the markup in the *.x files. See the attached patch. The bold formatting of the links is especially useful in HTML output (but also in terminal output); the links become clickable and point to the respective man page in online collections [1]. You can test the behavior in the German version, where the links are already properly formatted [2]. [1] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1 [2] https://man.archlinux.org/man/cat.1.de Best Regards, Mario --00000000000031a04b05d7e627f4 Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset="US-ASCII"; name="seealso-markup.diff" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="seealso-markup.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: f_kzlaned20 ZGlmZiAtLWdpdCBhL21hbi9hcmNoLnggYi9tYW4vYXJjaC54CmluZGV4IDBhMzEwYjQxZi4uNDg3 MzE4MjA3IDEwMDY0NAotLS0gYS9tYW4vYXJjaC54CisrKyBiL21hbi9hcmNoLngKQEAgLTMsNCAr Myw1IEBAIGFyY2ggXC0gcHJpbnQgbWFjaGluZSBoYXJkd2FyZSBuYW1lIChzYW1lIGFzIHVuYW1l IC1tKQogW0RFU0NSSVBUSU9OXQogLlwiIEFkZCBhbnkgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBo ZXJlCiBbU0VFIEFMU09dCi11bmFtZSgxKSwgdW5hbWUoMikKKy5CUiB1bmFtZSAoMSksCisuQlIg dW5hbWUgKDIpCmRpZmYgLS1naXQgYS9tYW4vYjJzdW0ueCBiL21hbi9iMnN1bS54CmluZGV4IDVh ODU3Y2ExNS4uYmI1Y2FiYjViIDEwMDY0NAotLS0gYS9tYW4vYjJzdW0ueAorKysgYi9tYW4vYjJz dW0ueApAQCAtMyw0ICszLDQgQEAgYjJzdW0gXC0gY29tcHV0ZSBhbmQgY2hlY2sgQkxBS0UyIG1l 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"Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 03:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 53977 X-GNU-PR-Package: coreutils X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 53977@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: P@draigBrady.com, mario.blaettermann@gmail.com Received: via spool by 53977-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B53977.16448944643391 (code B ref 53977); Tue, 15 Feb 2022 03:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 53977) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Feb 2022 03:07:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43176 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nJoBs-0000sd-Ho for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 22:07:44 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:36384) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nJoBp-0000sP-Qw for 53977@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 22:07:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9261D1600AD; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 19:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id gL8e4SMurlQB; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 19:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FF81600B2; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 19:07:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id PpDJCErbqKc3; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 19:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-172-91-119-151.socal.res.rr.com [172.91.119.151]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F8F11600AD; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 19:07:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <501f487e-a100-2133-99ac-798ecb9f983e@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 19:07:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US References: <6fe35dfd-e2aa-3576-6d55-8ac148b2ab78@draigBrady.com> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: <6fe35dfd-e2aa-3576-6d55-8ac148b2ab78@draigBrady.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 2/14/22 15:00, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: >=20 > I see Paul added the grep markup recently in a seemingly unrelated chan= ge: > https://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=3Dgrep.git;a=3Dcommit;h=3Dfe630c= 9f In the old days man pages' SEE ALSO sections mostly didn't use markup=20 for references to other man pages. I see only one exception in 7th=20 edition UNIX (1979): its man page for yacc used ".IR lex (1)" instead of=20 plain "lex(1)". Nowadays it seems that ".BR lex (1)" is what's preferred for this sort=20 of thing, so I've been switching to this style desultorily in man pages=20 when someone points it out, most recently in diffutils today: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=3Ddiffutils.git;a=3Dcommitdiff;h=3D= dd9deb765548679e821be565229bb2e142d93573 As usual man pages are low priority for the GNU project. That being=20 said, this sort of thing is an easy change.