GNU bug report logs - #53188
28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context menu blocks minibuffer at column 36

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context menu blocks
 minibuffer at column 36
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:59:23 +0000 (UTC)

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hello,

When tooltip-mode is off, the minibuffer displays the message in
place of the tooltip.  For the modeline context menu items, the
minibuffer's message line is blocked by the context menu at
column 36.

steps to reproduce
* start emacs by 'emacs -Q'
* apply M-x customize-variable RET tooltip-mode RET
* turn off tooltip-mode
* goto *scratch* buffer
* apply mouse button-3 to display modeline context menu
* on hover over 'Overwrite(Ovwrt)' the minibuffer message line is 
readable to column 36 and the rest of the minibuffer is blocked by 
the modeline context menu

observed behavior
* minibuffer's message line is blocked by modeline context menu at 
column 36

expected behavior
* minibuffer's message line is readable for the length of the width 
of the emacs frame, modeline context menu offsets appropriately and 
does not block minibuffer message line

-- 
vl

[bug-gnu-emacs-28.0.90.text (text/plain, attachment)]

Message #8 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90;
 if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context menu blocks minibuffer at
 column 36
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 19:16:30 +0200

> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:59:23 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
> 
> observed behavior
> * minibuffer's message line is blocked by modeline context menu at 
> column 36
> 
> expected behavior
> * minibuffer's message line is readable for the length of the width 
> of the emacs frame, modeline context menu offsets appropriately and 
> does not block minibuffer message line

Patches are welcome to pop up the menus so that they never overlap the
echo-area when tooltip-mode is nil.  (This must be done up front, when
calculating where to pop up the menu.)

I do note that the most important use case where this comes into play,
which is menus on text-mode frames, already behaves that way.  So the
problem is rather small and confined to a somewhat marginal use case.

Thanks.

Message #11 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Po Lu <luangruo <at> yahoo.com>
To: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context
 menu blocks minibuffer at column 36
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2022 14:28:39 +0800

Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org> writes:

> observed behavior
> * minibuffer's message line is blocked by modeline context menu at
>   column 36
>
> expected behavior
> * minibuffer's message line is readable for the length of the width of
>   the emacs frame, modeline context menu offsets appropriately and
>   does not block minibuffer message line

I'm not going to mess with GTK+ menu placement (and I don't recommend
anyone to try that either, especially with GTK 3, where GTK performing
size allocation a menu causes native input to stop working for a weird
reason), but patches would be welcome to fix that in the Xt builds.  If
it helps, Motif provides some feature to define custom areas of a screen
where XmMenuShells should avoid, but I don't remember what it is.

Thanks.

Message #18 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context
 menu blocks minibuffer at column 36
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:26:11 +0000 (UTC)

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> expected behavior
>> * minibuffer's message line is readable for the length of the width
>> of the emacs frame, modeline context menu offsets appropriately and
>> does not block minibuffer message line
>
> Patches are welcome to pop up the menus so that they never overlap the
> echo-area when tooltip-mode is nil.  (This must be done up front, when
> calculating where to pop up the menu.)
>
> I do note that the most important use case where this comes into play,
> which is menus on text-mode frames, already behaves that way.  So the
> problem is rather small and confined to a somewhat marginal use case.
>

Maybe tooltip-mode should be silent in the echo-area once nil is set.

-- 
vl

Message #21 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context
 menu blocks minibuffer at column 36
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 11:59:58 +0200

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:26:11 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
> cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> expected behavior
> >> * minibuffer's message line is readable for the length of the width
> >> of the emacs frame, modeline context menu offsets appropriately and
> >> does not block minibuffer message line
> >
> > Patches are welcome to pop up the menus so that they never overlap the
> > echo-area when tooltip-mode is nil.  (This must be done up front, when
> > calculating where to pop up the menu.)
> >
> > I do note that the most important use case where this comes into play,
> > which is menus on text-mode frames, already behaves that way.  So the
> > problem is rather small and confined to a somewhat marginal use case.
> >
> 
> Maybe tooltip-mode should be silent in the echo-area once nil is set.

I don't think I follow: do you mean that we should suppress _all_
help-echo text when tooltip-mode is nil?  That'd be too drastic, I
think, and unjustified.

Message #24 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context
 menu blocks minibuffer at column 36
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 11:16:36 +0000 (UTC)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> Maybe tooltip-mode should be silent in the echo-area once nil is set.
>
> I don't think I follow: do you mean that we should suppress _all_
> help-echo text when tooltip-mode is nil?  That'd be too drastic, I
> think, and unjustified.
>

The text associated with the tooltip is helpful early on but becomes 
an annoying visual nag once you are familiar with what that thing 
does.  I had tooltip-mode set nil.  I didn't expect the echo area to 
contain the tooltip.  There was text in the echo area and I couldn't 
get the modeline context menu out of the way to read it.  When I 
restarted in 'emacs -Q' to report the bug I discovered the echo area 
partially contained the tooltip text because tooltip-mode is default 
on.  My point is if there is text I want, I want to be able to read 
all of it.  If I've set tooltip-mode nil then I expect tooltip text 
masked out from every output channel.

-- 
vl

Message #27 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context
 menu blocks minibuffer at column 36
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 14:38:10 +0200

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 11:16:36 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
> cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2022, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> Maybe tooltip-mode should be silent in the echo-area once nil is set.
> >
> > I don't think I follow: do you mean that we should suppress _all_
> > help-echo text when tooltip-mode is nil?  That'd be too drastic, I
> > think, and unjustified.
> >
> 
> The text associated with the tooltip is helpful early on but becomes 
> an annoying visual nag once you are familiar with what that thing 
> does.  I had tooltip-mode set nil.  I didn't expect the echo area to 
> contain the tooltip.  There was text in the echo area and I couldn't 
> get the modeline context menu out of the way to read it.  When I 
> restarted in 'emacs -Q' to report the bug I discovered the echo area 
> partially contained the tooltip text because tooltip-mode is default 
> on.  My point is if there is text I want, I want to be able to read 
> all of it.  If I've set tooltip-mode nil then I expect tooltip text 
> masked out from every output channel.

So you are actually asking for a new feature, whereby the tooltips are
not shown at all, is that right?

Message #30 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context
 menu blocks minibuffer at column 36
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:24:43 +0000 (UTC)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> The text associated with the tooltip is helpful early on but becomes
>> an annoying visual nag once you are familiar with what that thing
>> does.  I had tooltip-mode set nil.  I didn't expect the echo area to
>> contain the tooltip.  There was text in the echo area and I couldn't
>> get the modeline context menu out of the way to read it.  When I
>> restarted in 'emacs -Q' to report the bug I discovered the echo area
>> partially contained the tooltip text because tooltip-mode is default
>> on.  My point is if there is text I want, I want to be able to read
>> all of it.  If I've set tooltip-mode nil then I expect tooltip text
>> masked out from every output channel.
>
> So you are actually asking for a new feature, whereby the tooltips are
> not shown at all, is that right?
>

No.  I think, I'm asking for the echo area to be readable when text 
is there.  The context menu from the modeline does not get in the 
way.  When I've disabled the text associated with the tooltip by 
setting tooltip-mode to nil, I assumed I wouldn't have reached this 
point where I have to ask for the tooltip text not to show.

-- 
vl

Message #33 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context
 menu blocks minibuffer at column 36
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:48:30 +0200

> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:24:43 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
> cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2022, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> The text associated with the tooltip is helpful early on but becomes
> >> an annoying visual nag once you are familiar with what that thing
> >> does.  I had tooltip-mode set nil.  I didn't expect the echo area to
> >> contain the tooltip.  There was text in the echo area and I couldn't
> >> get the modeline context menu out of the way to read it.  When I
> >> restarted in 'emacs -Q' to report the bug I discovered the echo area
> >> partially contained the tooltip text because tooltip-mode is default
> >> on.  My point is if there is text I want, I want to be able to read
> >> all of it.  If I've set tooltip-mode nil then I expect tooltip text
> >> masked out from every output channel.
> >
> > So you are actually asking for a new feature, whereby the tooltips are
> > not shown at all, is that right?
> >
> 
> No.  I think, I'm asking for the echo area to be readable when text 
> is there.

Then I don't understand what you wanted to say by this part:

> >>       I had tooltip-mode set nil.  I didn't expect the echo area to
> >> contain the tooltip.  There was text in the echo area and I couldn't
> >> get the modeline context menu out of the way to read it.

This seems to mean that you don't want the tooltip text to be
displayed in the echo area.  But if it isn't displayed in the echo
area, where do you want it to be displayed?

> When I've disabled the text associated with the tooltip by 
> setting tooltip-mode to nil, I assumed I wouldn't have reached this 
> point where I have to ask for the tooltip text not to show.

The doc string of tooltip-mode says, among other things:

  When Tooltip mode is disabled, Emacs displays help text in the
  echo area, instead of making a pop-up window.

Message #36 received at 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53188: 28.0.90; if tooltip-mode is off, modeline context
 menu blocks minibuffer at column 36
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:30:04 +0000 (UTC)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:24:43 +0000 (UTC)
>> From: Van Ly <van.ly <at> sdf.org>
>> cc: 53188 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>>> So you are actually asking for a new feature, whereby the tooltips are
>>> not shown at all, is that right?
>>>
>>
>> No.  I think, I'm asking for the echo area to be readable when text
>> is there.
>
> Then I don't understand what you wanted to say by this part:
>
>>>>       I had tooltip-mode set nil.  I didn't expect the echo area to
>>>> contain the tooltip.  There was text in the echo area and I couldn't
>>>> get the modeline context menu out of the way to read it.
>
> This seems to mean that you don't want the tooltip text to be
> displayed in the echo area.  But if it isn't displayed in the echo
> area, where do you want it to be displayed?
>

Come to think of it, what I'd like is a volume dial for adjusting the 
verbosity level closer to zero in the echo area and as a fallback I 
can always jump to the *Messages* buffer and see.  The unwanted 
tooltip text can pool there.  Maybe, the verbosity levels can be

  . 100% All
  . 75% Chatty
  . 50% Balanced
  . 25% Important only
  . 0% Quiet

Specific to this bug report.  The problem is the modeline context 
menu gets in the way of reading the echo area and the fix is, as 
you've said, is for an avoid area hint to tell modeline context menu 
where to go.

>> When I've disabled the text associated with the tooltip by
>> setting tooltip-mode to nil, I assumed I wouldn't have reached this
>> point where I have to ask for the tooltip text not to show.
>
> The doc string of tooltip-mode says, among other things:
>
>  When Tooltip mode is disabled, Emacs displays help text in the
>  echo area, instead of making a pop-up window.
>

ah, without confirming the in the documentation, I was in the 
mistaken belief when tooltip mode is disabled the associated text 
description is on mute or masked out.

Thanks.

-- 
vl

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