From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:25:50 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#53033 <53033@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#53033 <53033@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: date has multiple "first saturday"s? Reply-To: bug#53033 <53033@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 17:25:50 +0000 retitle 53033 date has multiple "first saturday"s? reassign 53033 coreutils submitter 53033 Darryl Okahata severity 53033 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 05 13:43:32 2022 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jan 2022 18:43:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41767 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n5BG0-0008RW-8F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 13:43:32 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:44268) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n5B6H-0008CO-VM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 13:33:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44246) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n5B6H-0008AP-No for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 13:33:29 -0500 Received: from mx0a-003cac01.pphosted.com ([205.220.161.93]:4608) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n5B6F-0004ah-BF for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 13:33:29 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0187212.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-003cac01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 205INcqH012457 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 10:33:25 -0800 Received: from nam11-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam11lp2172.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.58.172]) by mx0b-003cac01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dd21v1383-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2022 10:33:25 -0800 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=RdDTCUyMnEH71lFJh7+/6eXY7HhOBA/NGvNJBug/Mv82CqKPV5+o0SSp7bGpwNTp3n59s/IEmkOOZBr2RPbcu9ose7xrYDHAGETZg5bECrCtVlzGkmXUlAAqTucZftDdbOGRlpzsQ/OdngT1AV+TYJJXfCdIH26vMloyvjJBmXMxhzzjUtlVqTLbYQUaB802FyD0E0zOBujm8GhPgO7nFC+cjEmDSOySWfR4B46gSF/lidEcLxCzbW5rEa9EyQDGStDaTXhP5hwe/Ov8UZnQ7qgTDprvoXuU4b77GX/ycezHCDcA6utTBbsw0bRl2xQJbx42nwvaONnV/k+olJ9RMg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=vgQAmnfgwg2928a62AAb6JslaVhgwIroSpFVL0v5yN8=; b=a9a57mJbrn/zf7Ug5TfS/vgqipfb1BjA3el6vGl57R4DR1GDU8yECKn89Q04fVSogVKLe57M2aldqP1CGzWxZy44L13ab1jkqDaHKREdXMIh05PZTaGVpV9O9fImWtAIkiZyizq/dtmLpKDQxS1ryL43kqnYxW4IKphjpg5f5ivDd4sn/nAc9tc98fNpAAM6PPw9vURX8RFdoEMxvvtNi/QLxzc3hGfUugLEoigAtdoG83qXrtGk1YANQFIVa33MDEq2O17rHLbW7i4dQDYCKWA1dvFQPSvMLdUYNL32namfAHR1f2WKwA10oD5fHp/qkrhVjsmX+fUo+gDMhXjbig== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=keysight.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=keysight.com; dkim=pass header.d=keysight.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=keysight.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=vgQAmnfgwg2928a62AAb6JslaVhgwIroSpFVL0v5yN8=; b=KxIR1zM70EjTRwyOqkCd4Jxoki5cO8wjpc8YY5AJHvptfaA+xf0YCtuA+IW5K9p1bLvu5FR3ql73VpJ5sAwHLnd/xxAjss1WIL+aHOZrikCu5Xm6wqecaaUTO6+6n7M112xz5ZAsktD8++pTRU3nrtWzAgNOgiwyU6tK27MM9fE= Received: from SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:3ae::15) by SJ0PR17MB5085.namprd17.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:3af::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4844.15; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 18:33:23 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d8d:1e92:14e1:adc7]) by SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d8d:1e92:14e1:adc7%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4867.009; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 18:33:23 +0000 From: Darryl Okahata To: "bug-coreutils@gnu.org" Subject: date has multiple "first saturday"s? Thread-Topic: date has multiple "first saturday"s? 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References: X-Yow: YOW!! What should the entire human race DO?? Consume a fifth of CHIVAS REGAL, ski NUDE down MT. EVEREST, and have a wild SEX WEEKEND! Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 23:10:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Darryl Okahata via's message of "Wed, 5 Jan 2022 18:33:23 +0000") Message-ID: <87czl53kc5.fsf@igel.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.18.0.10; envelope-from=whitebox@nefkom.net; helo=mail-out.m-online.net X-Spam_score_int: -22 X-Spam_score: -2.3 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 53033@debbugs.gnu.org, Darryl Okahata X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On Jan 05 2022, Darryl Okahata via GNU coreutils Bug Reports wrote: > $ date -d "first saturday" > Sat Jan 8 00:00:00 PST 2022 > > Unless there is some weird definition of "first Saturday", shouldn't this be > the 1st (New Year's Day)? Try date --debug. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1 "And now for something completely different." 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Thread-Topic: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? 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b=PArz4wdaFlh6erIz2y/RkwCLrfcoCrPN+X3g57r6Vv1qDM63fEv+IvIH7d4USyk5taxBuzuWcYyCi7Ap0WKFqnjYcKbJE0/gelcoYCQnyTv1B7ER3E0/BozB7SotvGEWdt5rbF+aOgv9bXWQOmMwIEk0tm8VATpFQ2Os6p56bVc= Received: from SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:3ae::15) by SJ0PR17MB5094.namprd17.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:390::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4867.9; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:50:27 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d8d:1e92:14e1:adc7]) by SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d8d:1e92:14e1:adc7%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4867.009; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 21:50:26 +0000 From: Darryl Okahata To: Darryl Okahata , "schwab@linux-m68k.org" , "53033@debbugs.gnu.org" <53033@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? Thread-Topic: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? 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15:22:14 2022 Received: (at 53033) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jan 2022 20:22:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45952 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n5vkc-0000ak-9s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:22:14 -0500 Received: from havoc.proulx.com ([96.88.95.61]:52200) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n5vkY-0000aP-6E for 53033@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:22:12 -0500 Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941D74D5; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:22:04 -0700 (MST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proulx.com; s=dkim2048; t=1641586924; bh=umDfKR8elLxgi4G6NY2xSnQabcILwLvPzgHrjRDi5Hs=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=qp9YoTaKII+Q3yRshjLXl0FT0UZlBcZgO+BoTlUqVELWNmMi52HUwgupFNKILv7ad wvzWCUpJqoxVe7IhePxtqsOMw3Y8A2KG7IUPq/9w75M4F7JPV086+lLnToVCarAEDV 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Message-ID: <20220107131853054176959@bob.proulx.com> References: <87czl53kc5.fsf@igel.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 53033 Cc: 53033@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Darryl Okahata via GNU coreutils Bug Reports wrote: > From coreutils 9.0 (note the difference between the "second" and "third" > saturdays): ... > $ src/date --debug -d "second saturday" > date: parsed relative part: +1 seconds Caution! The date utility can't parse second due to second being a unit of time. The documentation says: A few ordinal numbers may be written out in words in some contexts. This is most useful for specifying day of the week items or relative items (see below). Among the most commonly used ordinal numbers, the word ‘last’ stands for -1, ‘this’ stands for 0, and ‘first’ and ‘next’ both stand for 1. Because the word ‘second’ stands for the unit of time there is no way to write the ordinal number 2, but for convenience ‘third’ stands for 3, ‘fourth’ for 4, ‘fifth’ for 5, ‘sixth’ for 6, ‘seventh’ for 7, ‘eighth’ for 8, ‘ninth’ for 9, ‘tenth’ for 10, ‘eleventh’ for 11 and ‘twelfth’ for 12. Inconsistencies like this are why I wish it had never been implemented. Best to avoid the syntax completely. Bob From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 10 14:42:25 2022 Received: (at 53033) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2022 19:42:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53339 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n70Yj-0007jO-LQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:42:25 -0500 Received: from mx0b-003cac01.pphosted.com ([205.220.173.93]:7712) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n70Ye-0007jA-J0 for 53033@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:42:24 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0187215.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-003cac01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20AJbVvN023544; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:42:19 -0800 Received: from nam10-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam10lp2106.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.55.106]) by mx0b-003cac01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dfass2ge3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 11:42:14 -0800 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ECLYZFQpb5YIepMXRFYoqk0aJUQ2DhJ++7m3XzEmENGt1GMPCPzpc0GruwjOkh6CSQ9/AKJcTr4pfJMjmIi9fTZc4r1IUwryMM31hjGzv070lWuCIRZGfSQWLIeH6Oy3xhj5lfh/IYHg/oSlQZr4srYpaDeIfVNPyUfRYOdtvYei+nEg2naChUPn6hpgJ0f/WRnuW/+BiBLAcLCB9HXlv3jJuCiRfvQWhsNsEpSGN3S/GeZSBU4cMWkPrsC+PpGF6VbM32e+116lqlbILidn4a81pwXmY8yubvjmir3qX3bJHYDSyXcE95KpF7zHdmEwAZd3F4s7OqEIJcxDj4KbMA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=NEROfn0jUM9o+eDUVeyx3IfryyFBrrfAzF9zvrTLI9I=; b=oXu4kgZnNU2bmCT1sMEIkD53g1tf3qzGk3k8JBQZCU1v78If0Tb57BkaiPXUINb3o4V06u3dDWWVhcaSafNq9P6ZZZhBx0rNoF06cLNAymL45gjJlSWs3m7r3szKNpbQrBbL1xZfDfky7IlNWh9Q7zWdD0Ql8g86Lb+dmWnf2FzbJHMCttp/u+xKXhwlIiOYtLjgagVAxsumQK7VcZAwfVjNIZ/Eld+RSMyjoZ+FDG1ZgYuKurnflUJiXYjJG22KXqri/MmjQ0FbW2sPuju67zQn/qm4yjHsTVWob2e9s6JqiCHi06ocbRqqSGWhYrKz0FuPCOrNs6RJcXTPcdx43g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=keysight.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=keysight.com; dkim=pass header.d=keysight.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=keysight.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=NEROfn0jUM9o+eDUVeyx3IfryyFBrrfAzF9zvrTLI9I=; b=Ld/rFJ2z8kMIHHOegTjf+BnlDjxH0FCrslOTcSjldS/cR/0KF7GAjQ8uP71P1XZaV8FR6XBrTLEYFBmgBTJZDKd1McNOiRNXE8e7mwclQg1M1LlwDQEcz/D+AeT6SoRKRPWfhE4LwUtXWJ5keB4gM3ttZulkHSTO8UgQi/HU17Y= Received: from SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:3ae::15) by SJ0PR17MB5778.namprd17.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:405::7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4844.15; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:42:11 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d8d:1e92:14e1:adc7]) by SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d8d:1e92:14e1:adc7%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4867.012; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:42:11 +0000 From: Darryl Okahata To: Bob Proulx Subject: RE: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? Thread-Topic: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? 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Mon, 10 Jan 2022 15:11:09 -0700 (MST) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6D42A2DCA5; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 15:11:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 15:11:09 -0700 From: Bob Proulx To: Darryl Okahata Subject: Re: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? Message-ID: <20220110145312318528208@bob.proulx.com> References: <87czl53kc5.fsf@igel.home> <20220107131853054176959@bob.proulx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 53033 Cc: 53033@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Darryl Okahata wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > Inconsistencies like this are why I wish it had never been implemented. Best to avoid the syntax completely. > > Thanks. I'll avoid date and use either python or ruby to get this info. To be clear what I meant was that I would avoid the ordinal word descripts such as first, second, and third because as documented the use of second is already used for the time unit. I meant that instead it would be better to use the actual numbers 1, 2, and 3, to avoid that problem. However reading your report again I now question whether I understand what you were trying to report specifically. Initially you wrote: $ date -d "first saturday" Sat Jan 8 00:00:00 PST 2022 Running it again today I get. $ date -d "first saturday" Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 $ date -d "next saturday" Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 That's the first Saturday after now. The debug is valuable information. $ date --debug -d 'first saturday' date: parsed day part: next/first Sat (day ordinal=1 number=6) date: input timezone: system default date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00 date: new start date: 'next/first Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00' date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00' date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00' = 1642230000 epoch-seconds date: timezone: system default date: final: 1642230000.000000000 (epoch-seconds) date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 07:00:00 (UTC) date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00 (UTC-07) Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 Is it useful to know the date, say..., three Saturdays from now? I am sure there is a good case for it. But it always leaves me scratching my head wondering. Because it is basically working with the date of today, at midnight, then the next Saturday. $ date --debug -d 'third saturday' date: parsed day part: third Sat (day ordinal=3 number=6) date: input timezone: system default date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00 date: new start date: 'third Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00' date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00' date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00' = 1643439600 epoch-seconds date: timezone: system default date: final: 1643439600.000000000 (epoch-seconds) date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 07:00:00 (UTC) date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00 (UTC-07) Sat Jan 29 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 It seems to me that it would be just as clear to use numbers in that position so as to avoid ambiguity. $ date --debug -d '2 saturday' date: parsed day part: (SECOND) Sat (day ordinal=2 number=6) date: input timezone: system default date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00 date: new start date: '(SECOND) Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' = 1642834800 epoch-seconds date: timezone: system default date: final: 1642834800.000000000 (epoch-seconds) date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 07:00:00 (UTC) date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC-07) Sat Jan 22 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 There is no need for "second" in the "second saturday" when using the relative time "2 saturday" produces the desired answer. My wondering now is if "2 saturday" was actually what was desired at all. Perhaps it was really wanted to know the date of the first Saturday of the month? That's entirely a different problem. Also, when working with dates I strongly encourage working with UTC. I went along with the original example. But I feel I should have been producing examples like this instead with -uR. $ date -uR --debug -d '2 saturday' date: parsed day part: (SECOND) Sat (day ordinal=2 number=6) date: input timezone: TZ="UTC0" environment value or -u date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00 date: new start date: '(SECOND) Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' = 1642809600 epoch-seconds date: timezone: Universal Time date: final: 1642809600.000000000 (epoch-seconds) date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC) date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC+00) Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:00:00 +0000 Bob From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 10 17:33:59 2022 Received: (at 53033) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2022 22:33:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53489 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n73Ek-0003od-Rk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:33:59 -0500 Received: from mx0a-003cac01.pphosted.com ([205.220.161.93]:44540) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n73Ef-0003oS-Va for 53033@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:33:57 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0187211.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-003cac01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20AMSvlB032676; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:33:52 -0800 Received: from nam11-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam11lp2173.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.58.173]) by mx0b-003cac01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3df906aq0d-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 14:33:52 -0800 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=YQYOfHqahMxdKHnvOEUNIcB7PBP7pRzeIFyf8WNuJpwZ5p6S1W8gFlVuEo5rADzCe6R2qGSH9Koye8oAp5+c1kHtV8Cl7/bEmOkzswU1HeJZEXyMvmTkkj1FBoNbX6zpZ+i2ZPq4OBxTBkxa5lbRtXcO5I1bRfTVc2eYtT1BCj0uZ3WouH87PRqKzBLYbjJeJAyIQVgq3GbBncTHeWCSU07NUqMkisFn+elAEKiHG/3ztkZDSVHpU6QlEsGSG4F7DUN0idCajtHYBA4eE7KYYIz7/oOmafTEE1QMvx9l8O7FkWXpTLCTsDUhmp3ij5hA8wtvWAwXTeoENrlnUu4PUg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=TvxmnJgF6r9Eph8jBp8ZhpB9eFV+pc3QPjyywBYxhco=; b=J0ChryiQPxucnIawgvib08kCDKWlEe5tv9Q2JYXTDDw/7lkXWrTj2gtIuP/dKaBAN3feqY4/zYPz/z4R1gHBp8VtJjD/V0OchbbM7nzMm9Rb/2uWSlYjHSexLGZUarmWA8GVg0cd1iQdPSYkQ9EQWuFSsLwU96YJl4jMxL76eWInuhNZXvVWje3e1y0Ts3fQWAeDpxTSeniDeJYUcLWYIrCQ+8LxhcUqKq8IXVJRDjHyyRkdF/VKIjXeZw37Z7/1khxsdQntLwHtTibBXL05LLyN1mkwJjxCorSkSeatLyEZaluJvUnbp5sStwAh+WLb4bV+hezfq0R8pORHW31ptQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=keysight.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=keysight.com; dkim=pass header.d=keysight.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=keysight.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=TvxmnJgF6r9Eph8jBp8ZhpB9eFV+pc3QPjyywBYxhco=; b=HaU8yba+oQ+6Z/3uPIn7isQNVMtVMBA4NVeJUVZAFSPCHVhRZspCpt03SOUr4uRmMnuSCFqIhKaW5K2EvNjbzPqJOjml+Q2yi2S98hTfB2ILJALVfDhlFu5sW3pE4Mxgm7EvdK7Wnc+wU775TutPdv9cFpwcmEE3KLwqLYYHG6g= Received: from SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:3ae::15) by SJ0PR17MB5656.namprd17.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:391::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4867.11; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:33:50 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d8d:1e92:14e1:adc7]) by SJ0PR17MB4992.namprd17.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d8d:1e92:14e1:adc7%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4867.012; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:33:50 +0000 From: Darryl Okahata To: Bob Proulx Subject: RE: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? Thread-Topic: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? 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SMTP id g19mr2910416ybe.371.1641857244777; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 15:27:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87czl53kc5.fsf@igel.home> <20220107131853054176959@bob.proulx.com> <20220110145312318528208@bob.proulx.com> In-Reply-To: From: Paul Vint Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 18:27:11 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? To: Darryl Okahata Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d8d29005d542ad63" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 53033 Cc: "53033@debbugs.gnu.org" <53033@debbugs.gnu.org>, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000d8d29005d542ad63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Just a quick comment as a lurker on the list: This was a very interesting discussion, and it's discussions like these that I like following the list for. Learned a few little things here. Side note: Where I live in Canada, if someone refers to "next Saturday" in conversation, one never knows if they mean (to use the `date` syntax) "first saturday" or "second saturday". I avoid the phrase whenever possible. Paul On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 5:34 PM Darryl Okahata via GNU coreutils Bug Reports wrote: > Hmmm, it might be that I'm misunderstanding the syntax. I'm used to > specifying dates for repeating calendar events, and, to me, "first > Saturday" means the "first Saturday of the month", and not the next > Saturday from now. > > -- Darryl > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Proulx > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 2:11 PM > To: Darryl Okahata > Cc: 53033@debbugs.gnu.org > Subject: Re: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s? > > Darryl Okahata wrote: > > Bob Proulx wrote: > > Inconsistencies like this are why I wish it had never been > implemented. Best to avoid the syntax completely. > > > > Thanks. I'll avoid date and use either python or ruby to get this info. > > To be clear what I meant was that I would avoid the ordinal word descripts > such as first, second, and third because as documented the use of second is > already used for the time unit. I meant that instead it would be better to > use the actual numbers 1, 2, and 3, to avoid that problem. > > However reading your report again I now question whether I understand what > you were trying to report specifically. Initially you wrote: > > $ date -d "first saturday" > Sat Jan 8 00:00:00 PST 2022 > > Running it again today I get. > > $ date -d "first saturday" > Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 > > $ date -d "next saturday" > Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 > > That's the first Saturday after now. The debug is valuable information. > > $ date --debug -d 'first saturday' > date: parsed day part: next/first Sat (day ordinal=1 number=6) > date: input timezone: system default > date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00 > date: new start date: 'next/first Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00' > date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00' > date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00' = 1642230000 epoch-seconds > date: timezone: system default > date: final: 1642230000.000000000 (epoch-seconds) > date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 07:00:00 (UTC) > date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00 (UTC-07) > Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 > > Is it useful to know the date, say..., three Saturdays from now? I am > sure there is a good case for it. But it always leaves me scratching my > head wondering. Because it is basically working with the date of today, at > midnight, then the next Saturday. > > $ date --debug -d 'third saturday' > date: parsed day part: third Sat (day ordinal=3 number=6) > date: input timezone: system default > date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00 > date: new start date: 'third Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00' > date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00' > date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00' = 1643439600 epoch-seconds > date: timezone: system default > date: final: 1643439600.000000000 (epoch-seconds) > date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 07:00:00 (UTC) > date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00 (UTC-07) > Sat Jan 29 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 > > It seems to me that it would be just as clear to use numbers in that > position so as to avoid ambiguity. > > $ date --debug -d '2 saturday' > date: parsed day part: (SECOND) Sat (day ordinal=2 number=6) > date: input timezone: system default > date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00 > date: new start date: '(SECOND) Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' > date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' > date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' = 1642834800 epoch-seconds > date: timezone: system default > date: final: 1642834800.000000000 (epoch-seconds) > date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 07:00:00 (UTC) > date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC-07) > Sat Jan 22 12:00:00 AM MST 2022 > > There is no need for "second" in the "second saturday" when using the > relative time "2 saturday" produces the desired answer. > > My wondering now is if "2 saturday" was actually what was desired at all. > Perhaps it was really wanted to know the date of the first Saturday of the > month? That's entirely a different problem. > > Also, when working with dates I strongly encourage working with UTC. > I went along with the original example. But I feel I should have been > producing examples like this instead with -uR. > > $ date -uR --debug -d '2 saturday' > date: parsed day part: (SECOND) Sat (day ordinal=2 number=6) > date: input timezone: TZ="UTC0" environment value or -u > date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00 > date: new start date: '(SECOND) Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' > date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' > date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' = 1642809600 epoch-seconds > date: timezone: Universal Time > date: final: 1642809600.000000000 (epoch-seconds) > date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC) > date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC+00) > Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:00:00 +0000 > > Bob > --000000000000d8d29005d542ad63 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a quick comment as a lurker on the list: This was a v= ery interesting discussion, and it's discussions like these that I like= following the list for. Learned a few little things here.

Side note= : Where I live in Canada, if someone refers to "next Saturday" in= conversation, one never knows if they mean (to use the `date` syntax) &quo= t;first saturday" or "second saturday". I avoid the phrase w= henever possible.

Paul

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 5:34 PM Darryl Okahat= a via GNU coreutils Bug Reports <bug-coreutils@gnu.org> wrote:
Hmmm, it might be that I'm misunderstanding the = syntax.=C2=A0 I'm used to specifying dates for repeating calendar event= s, and, to me, "first Saturday" means the "first Saturday of= the month", and not the next Saturday from now.

=C2=A0 -- Darryl

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Proulx <bo= b@proulx.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 2:11 PM
To: Darryl Okahata <darryl_okahata@keysight.com>
Cc: 53033@debbug= s.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#53033: date has multiple "first saturday"s?

Darryl Okahata wrote:
> Bob Proulx wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Inconsistencies like this are why I wish it had nev= er been implemented.=C2=A0 Best to avoid the syntax completely.
>
> Thanks.=C2=A0 I'll avoid date and use either python or ruby to get= this info.

To be clear what I meant was that I would avoid the ordinal word descripts = such as first, second, and third because as documented the use of second is= already used for the time unit.=C2=A0 I meant that instead it would be bet= ter to use the actual numbers 1, 2, and 3, to avoid that problem.

However reading your report again I now question whether I understand what = you were trying to report specifically.=C2=A0 Initially you wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ date -d "first saturday"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sat Jan=C2=A0 8 00:00:00 PST 2022

Running it again today I get.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ date -d "first saturday"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ date -d "next saturday"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022

That's the first Saturday after now.=C2=A0 The debug is valuable inform= ation.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ date --debug -d 'first saturday'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: parsed day part: next/first Sat (day ordinal=3D1 number= =3D6)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: input timezone: system default
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: new start date: 'next/first Sat' is '(Y-M-D= ) 2022-01-15 00:00:00'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00= 9;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00' =3D 1642230000 ep= och-seconds
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: timezone: system default
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: 1642230000.000000000 (epoch-seconds)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 07:00:00 (UTC)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-15 00:00:00 (UTC-07)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sat Jan 15 12:00:00 AM MST 2022

Is it useful to know the date, say..., three Saturdays from now?=C2=A0 I am= sure there is a good case for it.=C2=A0 But it always leaves me scratching= my head wondering.=C2=A0 Because it is basically working with the date of = today, at midnight, then the next Saturday.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ date --debug -d 'third saturday'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: parsed day part: third Sat (day ordinal=3D3 number=3D6)=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: input timezone: system default
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: new start date: 'third Sat' is '(Y-M-D) 202= 2-01-29 00:00:00'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00= 9;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00' =3D 1643439600 ep= och-seconds
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: timezone: system default
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: 1643439600.000000000 (epoch-seconds)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 07:00:00 (UTC)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-29 00:00:00 (UTC-07)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sat Jan 29 12:00:00 AM MST 2022

It seems to me that it would be just as clear to use numbers in that positi= on so as to avoid ambiguity.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ date --debug -d '2 saturday'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: parsed day part: (SECOND) Sat (day ordinal=3D2 number= =3D6)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: input timezone: system default
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: new start date: '(SECOND) Sat' is '(Y-M-D) = 2022-01-22 00:00:00'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00= 9;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' =3D 1642834800 ep= och-seconds
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: timezone: system default
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: 1642834800.000000000 (epoch-seconds)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 07:00:00 (UTC)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC-07)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sat Jan 22 12:00:00 AM MST 2022

There is no need for "second" in the "second saturday" = when using the relative time "2 saturday" produces the desired an= swer.

My wondering now is if "2 saturday" was actually what was desired= at all.=C2=A0 Perhaps it was really wanted to know the date of the first S= aturday of the month?=C2=A0 That's entirely a different problem.

Also, when working with dates I strongly encourage working with UTC.
I went along with the original example.=C2=A0 But I feel I should have been= producing examples like this instead with -uR.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ date -uR --debug -d '2 saturday'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: parsed day part: (SECOND) Sat (day ordinal=3D2 number= =3D6)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: input timezone: TZ=3D"UTC0" environment value= or -u
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: warning: using midnight as starting time: 00:00:00
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: new start date: '(SECOND) Sat' is '(Y-M-D) = 2022-01-22 00:00:00'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: starting date/time: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00= 9;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: '(Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00' =3D 1642809600 ep= och-seconds
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: timezone: Universal Time
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: 1642809600.000000000 (epoch-seconds)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 date: final: (Y-M-D) 2022-01-22 00:00:00 (UTC+00)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sat, 22 Jan 2022 00:00:00 +0000

Bob
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