From unknown Sat Aug 16 15:56:33 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#52870 <52870@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#52870 <52870@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? Reply-To: bug#52870 <52870@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 22:56:33 +0000 retitle 52870 Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? reassign 52870 emacs submitter 52870 Stefan Kangas severity 52870 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 29 07:41:27 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2021 12:41:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48178 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2YGk-0000uj-V1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 07:41:27 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:34002) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2YGi-0000ub-Jt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 07:41:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42448) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2YGh-0004o5-Pg for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 07:41:24 -0500 Received: from mail-pg1-f173.google.com ([209.85.215.173]:42581) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2YGI-0002UP-47 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 07:41:00 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-f173.google.com with SMTP id g2so18385397pgo.9 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 04:40:57 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1XSde3HeoJb2Jr0su6NJSfO6uX79GWw5mplKBjv1sss=; b=adMjlzkXIHMoyC4EP7z/o56Fs6S+2ZA6uD5IxLADRhP9m282cGyZuiBdMvB8Y9Pbuu vrKE49tFKlrRDITHcDISP2nL79I9C0d3euHrlL935UzZOmK0gOkwPZ5tBx3cHhpMy4nj JANtRewisPEs1Qw9/0MfiQ9WaRbODjwQbrydSDbSsGHCRrPKqnQaFVIYp6fFrupUEEP0 nkSPfNL1J0PZL+g3IiJmEIMOFD4wPl9mW9oNfXhyuaCzyCmynbMGNf4+fjyTSm0Esqjk 1cUaeQMVpekH0zCmAuAfNeAqqh7xdonR/KTfHGS3LFW8EfXCY1LDweh76h+xX/+5dcZ+ 0zwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hp7CAVKwd93ZWZTge6LWoUsQMPyZwimr5dgoVu3ARqMmZAC9P sqGsJGTGgHTrDrt1Y8ZTYVvbMn65qF5Wuy7SuRBhIgEe X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZjaDKJykzzkTTMaxxMwZWa5h3cYeO1X4qVs7W1QZajf8CEWK/sBfycnMCiWY0XgHccX/evwZwnGKgb7k6ins= X-Received: by 2002:a63:5d41:: with SMTP id o1mr22803380pgm.325.1640781656398; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 04:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 04:40:56 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 04:40:56 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.215.173; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-f173.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) Severity: wishlist For example, in Dired, I type `C-h f dired-do-chmod RET' and read: It is bound to M, . Is the " ..." part there very useful? I personally find it confusing and distracting. This is true even when I am specifically developing menus; I'd rather look at the menu definition and the resulting menu bar. I would therefore like to suggest either: a) Displaying nothing at all for such bindings. The menu entries will be shown in the menu itself, and that is enough. In this case, we could have an option to revert to the old behavior. b) Show it separately from other key bindings at the end, maybe something like this: Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 24.3. It can be invoked from the menu: "Operate" -> "Change Mode..." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 29 08:08:21 2021 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2021 13:08:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48206 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Ygm-0001fK-R2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:08:20 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41560) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Ygk-0001f6-SS for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:08:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=JHoUs6dNR54jabPcLAGH9cJMB8IZ8atC4HhQih6Lls0=; b=qMLzw5zxmiINEfXj3mNyIHYftx BcXG/Q3pDmcpTe/ugb8nQ33k+FJkszNUivWIsTnIxEOwqXh4OahmyGY2qrOMLo0f5BkVbQcFMmKMp aIjTMQOyTQ6/dblxU9OtrqDOSgUfMJ2SjjiUs+cq96QR6ghE/ukrzCheWa7WHkskOq1E=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Ygb-0006Fe-Pe; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:08:12 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAFVBMVEXShkncj1fMsaDj 7OlILhyoa0L////V2pAtAAAAAWJLR0QGYWa4fQAAAAd0SU1FB+UMHQ0HMfuZR3wAAAGzSURBVDjL bZRbrqMwDIad0ck7icR7caYLOLCBmYq8A4r3v5Xxb5OW06lV4eAvvoaGiCilNNApKXN/CclEFVEu C2S62OFk5nnWx+0CKMHMzKXMy7cnMGFshrnohm/q5DTrT92KAVar7oFpLry4ANiiWBSknhIWDiyf 2Vk7SCgA9aqeFw1u5l5JcFAsiPdCXjoAGtLYbrJEyzT05O8yw/WczxtBgPzJR10C5Y9ghZRPoIHU cxjM0g6siaoBRaplFZG2PhjgcACDyj6aPljB77XqfgOy/kpNnyoDcQcRbjl/GajUQQTYJE+t/gRy gluzoA40RAxp1IokcxhBTgDfHcONPL2DtQKMfEvbFWh3dcNB8T3WNw9zGbQEG8X/ILRa2wfAWu/j Lu0KRL/iYcqT5LvA43h6bCHF27SjIQA/D8xYtqB9iNQrKIyxkLCOvQOTh4FNkiQH8QKQZzgmPZB2 AZvrPfpJvsDuJ/y31QvQmHomGlpjvwDeX/KnPUO5YYuu968riLKRaiw1+doBPe+LiD0vgH/WEIwI Ndk7qP3CCIM7+VdiVQVk0Pyx12adPy+knsarHP8B8hfZK6Yi/oAAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRl ADIwMjEtMTItMjlUMTM6MDc6NDkrMDA6MDDQ63x0AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTEy LTI5VDEzOjA3OjQ5KzAwOjAwobbEyAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Kate & Anna McGarrigle's _Dancer With Bruised Knees_: =?utf-8?Q?=22Naufrag=C3=A9e?= Du Tendre (Shipwrecked)" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:08:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 29 Dec 2021 04:40:56 -0800") Message-ID: <87o84z8sp4.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > b) Show it separately from other key bindings at the end, maybe > something like this: > > Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 24.3. > It can be invoked from the menu: "Operate" -> "Chang [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > b) Show it separately from other key bindings at the end, maybe > something like this: > > Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 24.3. > It can be invoked from the menu: "Operate" -> "Change Mode..." I think that's a good idea. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 29 08:28:31 2021 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2021 13:28:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48246 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Z0J-0002GL-Dc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:28:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51692) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Z0H-0002G6-TI for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:28:30 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=38552 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Z0C-0008Hw-De; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:28:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=rtwmz6TqSDitZScMb1wFBOiBd0CaxxnhBl1YLSjkL10=; b=OPSUbSxzAAdJ QELPyqJK9M/G3pINFTKpj+OemBOBSvwVWFyZWrIBTHSz9pJEqT2TiUO+/hbBBabFEKKFFluUWYSNh HLvvIV/ismpwc3VUmsyubfn4b4MMvBDnddnjINdQwlWXJCLXYn54JnM+IzQHHV3z8KY9c0mAohRV1 nmLhhYHSrcfHd2VGNlOyCNjB0WhHXYNZr5VcNjJ5P1Ezgu3llvzDd64AyRgQCrrNID8kElMYYzKdU JkWQQdlqBNBXMTo2z8o6AAxPIEWX1xtZ3f9409nIEuzBjURhTR9OuzbvjJbMCUQ/uQP1ZcQr0mP7V HhgR+1brbC3QkWRfGS84OA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4504 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Z0C-0006FP-8L; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:28:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:28:26 +0200 Message-Id: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 29 Dec 2021 04:40:56 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 04:40:56 -0800 > > For example, in Dired, I type `C-h f dired-do-chmod RET' and read: > > It is bound to M, . > > Is the " ..." part there very useful? I think it's as useful as the other key bindings we show there. This doesn't annoy me, and I sometimes find it useful. There's no reason to believe that people remember all the menu items by heart, no more than we expect them to remember key sequences. I'm sure that if you look at the menu bindings, you will sometimes find items there you didn't know about, or knew but forgot. > I would therefore like to suggest either: > > a) Displaying nothing at all for such bindings. The menu entries will > be shown in the menu itself, and that is enough. > > In this case, we could have an option to revert to the old behavior. > > b) Show it separately from other key bindings at the end, maybe > something like this: This is a serious change in behavior, so I think it could only fly as an opt-in feature. It sounds like a personal preference, so an option, off by default, for it sounds about right. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 29 09:49:21 2021 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2021 14:49:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48332 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2aGX-0004dh-Es for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:49:21 -0500 Received: from mail-pj1-f54.google.com ([209.85.216.54]:43817) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2aGV-0004dS-Gu for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:49:19 -0500 Received: by mail-pj1-f54.google.com with SMTP id a11-20020a17090a854b00b001b11aae38d6so20147416pjw.2 for <52870@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 06:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Z5zmf75rmFWNsFaA8RvLrKUAMBzBWaM8sZl/qirpxH4=; b=hbf6Ny7g8lxewW/QLgLZci1jVlbQycswGKq57+kKk/ZAFrSQSsPvIu46wa0F85QR/p 1h5zsDZGypXFKFyZ40NjWRzglEWE8d6so11A2+I9BaV8/PObNO3EzDq4HxP3/VgX8KME 3GcYRWXhS6mL4gGlUiST1bAcpIHge00rZdwIZzzb0QAbGWqTTwmUzSfdhFUl8MNhyywR qYMR/eYWedy141Dmq7XEocTj7W0GaDl3O1CFVqVBrtR1JvlKec/9nsQUFG+xQy55L1FU jT1ZcqB/yqf8MjEYng71qkylSgD6NsFQFUbS8KRhwPa1SpfT31hOa2ej/c9uX7aZmZCy hOpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ahAfSN8ONvYSOtRyW4y/xoc4DRw6lPa0y84UG6gJ/hstvDt/u 13dbkLZ3hGIV0WqF0ME7yA2y++TBgqSYf0hkiWYz18iT X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTFQISs2vITNUxwVLTGeCTe5tqybTDGhzPfoNcBhnfm9hFx0zlLH/S8PJPYwwDaaMPC//555bbjm5dJI6t3vs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7615:b0:148:db50:6b9f with SMTP id k21-20020a170902761500b00148db506b9fmr26357300pll.102.1640789353740; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 06:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 06:49:12 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 06:49:12 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> I would therefore like to suggest either: >> >> a) Displaying nothing at all for such bindings. The menu entries will >> be shown in the menu itself, and that is enough. >> >> In this case, we could have an option to revert to the old behavior. >> >> b) Show it separately from other key bindings at the end, maybe >> something like this: > > This is a serious change in behavior, so I think it could only fly as > an opt-in feature. It sounds like a personal preference, so an > option, off by default, for it sounds about right. I assume you are talking by option a). I retract that proposal, and propose option b) as the default behaviour. Thanks. 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Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? 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q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=fW1dmSPRFlcDQskzIzzXrSLyXOQA7P6StifaPtLTNSc=; b=BVQ63YThwFry Oca09pxVAU8a4GpQ9drCx3UL8JnQ2NjFgd8h5M9RlDzyNQLF5LRqpoc6GZi4v7paBNnUdi2k+AACQ OcGxDlQleaKyBJZkuK4eHDdSNk3BJIeN6OGfjN7I7orNpa9+q0luCiT8H53dNfxd8mIpqx1/kGvlN +2K8Fl8OsgVDs/UUcbu1EeKwkWjjYyb0oi06mSMBgFO0f/aD8qs1cxw3WFhONQ3qUugBboEwLufZJ HmN480g9joMF9wDOJZSwg6+Lgf4DABYNUvFT54jscE7cCD5bu9s2Pa4L53KBZmqvIKzB9C0j3pfqK DoU9n+BBfpu5mbZ+iNvLrw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1147 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2cB4-0004cZ-1m; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:51:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 18:51:52 +0200 Message-Id: <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 29 Dec 2021 06:49:12 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 06:49:12 -0800 > Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> I would therefore like to suggest either: > >> > >> a) Displaying nothing at all for such bindings. The menu entries will > >> be shown in the menu itself, and that is enough. > >> > >> In this case, we could have an option to revert to the old behavior. > >> > >> b) Show it separately from other key bindings at the end, maybe > >> something like this: > > > > This is a serious change in behavior, so I think it could only fly as > > an opt-in feature. It sounds like a personal preference, so an > > option, off by default, for it sounds about right. > > I assume you are talking by option a). I retract that proposal, and > propose option b) as the default behaviour. Thanks. If by b) you mean to push the menu binding to the very end, where it will probably not seen at all, then I don't think that could be the default, either. Just changing the order, so that non-menu bindings are shown first, is okay, I think. But banishing that to after the version where the command was introduced doesn't sound like something I could agree to by default. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 29 15:19:40 2021 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2021 20:19:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50444 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2fQC-0003Ml-Fs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:19:40 -0500 Received: from mail-pl1-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:40759) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2fQA-0003MU-LJ for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:19:39 -0500 Received: by mail-pl1-f169.google.com with SMTP id l15so1765438pls.7 for <52870@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 12:19:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Af0xx5gR8YgMeG3TOgzRFwZKE/el8AIg7KWpG+QSj7w=; b=niK0Bn93EJUCo1TQKHP+cgMyk+T2shKbNhgX0LId1BZlqYwEZPi0F0RhSA69hZy0hS gwIyuLJQp82C3i+VK1x46WYahOkW4meMm0LLZy0QuAmEyBMULlRZHm65ByLOpzOXzY9l bbsMB8KoY3g5B/X4b8Lu4hEMl1k+sJk5ZtI7fTHdLCC8MgwtGNwfaeAE/N+ex3ltfE1a QXx7dsttLYwjQRMr5sS9LNb0TJp8AjTTwUsb33mC9JMp8X1xMGrF+xvap+NKmwLBkPvp db609k52M9GwyvYaa8mYos+FSyR6+DNshat881+6O37a/v8B8rN7zuWBs6/bbKSDN4Zt bLAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533kxNpQ5VRnp91qyDOnJViPXxyNDjZrqK5LZJArQyAOuSb+zn/2 CU+lvSdthAnLyiXjHZOJH1NtgD0CnqjAV2bL37I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzqMRjpdJRVHJ9QTmJcwPx4IOvGC7KK6HtBoB6gLVJh0RCaFpEn/SnMFIdqgj+myUkGXXNxGUe8J9LBtb+9+2I= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1646:: with SMTP id il6mr33933378pjb.143.1640809172899; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 12:19:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 12:19:32 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 29 Dec 2021 18:51:52 +0200") References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 12:19:32 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > If by b) you mean to push the menu binding to the very end, where it > will probably not seen at all, You would only ever need to see it in specific situations. Furthermore, screens are at least 80x24 ( more these days, I guess) so we can usually fit the entire documentation on one screen. > then I don't think that could be the default, either. Just changing > the order, so that non-menu bindings are shown first, is okay, I > think. That's already the case, AFAICT. But I might be wrong: I never look at that line, as I always found it too noisy to read comfortably. I suspect for many users, that line will be worse than useless, as it is hardly immediately clear what e.g. " " is even supposed to mean. It looks like line-noise. BTW, it is even worse for describe-function: describe-function is an autoloaded interactive compiled Lisp function i= n =E2=80=98help-fns.el=E2=80=99. It is bound to . We don't even get to see `C-h f' here. > But banishing that to after the version where the command was > introduced doesn't sound like something I could agree to by default. What is your rationale for this? Is it easier to accept if it is before the "Probably introduced" line? 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Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? 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30 Dec 2021 07:15:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50927 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2pex-0005fl-Ev for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:15:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49056) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2peu-0005fR-BX for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:15:33 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=36468 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2peo-0001yd-VH; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:15:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=cauKvT7yde32geC3zUxUpNQMLbiF9BUW/kvKblma7Z0=; b=T0V6r1nrywgihIsrA0f+ bb2hOK0zLQs9fMNx+VI3mk3eXhod32lR4JjTZzOa3NK/BlrBhHIK1GtVTbjEyFsVgStvjJc6aD3Ti Tr3teibwmhOSmu1mFXD1Qk9N7DucRFP7BSb/p4lwZy/82KJ8HFz90SC2T4XzJExw37APupQodABaR 293Z2XoBARfQ3REpzO5MeNo1ZC23sqz2IQUHZgxdQsZVrx3RvTmKJ/LVHtiZAJ2ZHrFn7P//bfbqI /3nyiTFSb8E5Ki3W+ogVcs4C47ee0uqCo0qD0u1eA8tTKvDXconcqqHDzBmr6CzCDlbsoVzo93KnE yF1azV3X/gwqeA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2739 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2peo-0006by-T3; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:15:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 09:15:31 +0200 Message-Id: <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 29 Dec 2021 12:19:32 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 12:19:32 -0800 > Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > If by b) you mean to push the menu binding to the very end, where it > > will probably not seen at all, > > You would only ever need to see it in specific situations. You assume that people don't have any use for these bindings, but that is not necessarily so. > Furthermore, screens are at least 80x24 ( more these days, I guess) so > we can usually fit the entire documentation on one screen. I don't see how the screen size is relevant. The Help window can be a small window, and users (like me) sometimes limit them in their maximum size. So the last part can well be invisible unless one scrolls the window to the end. > I suspect for many users, that line will be worse than useless, as it is > hardly immediately clear what e.g. " > " is even supposed to mean. It looks like > line-noise. That is not a catastrophe. By contrast, _not_ seeing that information could be a catastrophe, in that the user may not be aware of the menu-bar binding. > BTW, it is even worse for describe-function: > > describe-function is an autoloaded interactive compiled Lisp function in > ‘help-fns.el’. > > It is bound to . > > We don't even get to see `C-h f' here. That's an issue I'd like us to fix, but it is not directly related to what we are discussing here. (And I cannot reproduce this on my system, FWIW: I do see "C-h f" and "F1 f".) There's no argument that keyboard bindings should be shown when they exist. However, I could turn the table and ask you whether you think it's reasonable to put the menu-bar bindings at the end for functions that have no other bindings but the menu-bar? If you do that, the user could think the command has no binding at all, until and unless he/she reads all the way to the end of the Help text. > > But banishing that to after the version where the command was > > introduced doesn't sound like something I could agree to by default. > > What is your rationale for this? Is it easier to accept if it is before > the "Probably introduced" line? The rationale is that hardly anyone ever looks at the "Probably introduced" line. Before it is slightly better, but not good enough: some doc strings are very long, so the menu-bar bindings will be pushed too far. 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Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? 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Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n8g0U-0003PH-LU; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 11:10:01 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: Joni Mitchell's _Archives: The Early Years (5)_: "Marcie" Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 11:09:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 30 Dec 2021 09:15:31 +0200") Message-ID: <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> What is your rationale for this? Is it easier to accept if it is before >> the "Probably introduced" line? > > The rationale is that hardly anyone ever looks at the "Probably > introduced" line. Be [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> What is your rationale for this? Is it easier to accept if it is before >> the "Probably introduced" line? > > The rationale is that hardly anyone ever looks at the "Probably > introduced" line. Before it is slightly better, but not good enough: > some doc strings are very long, so the menu-bar bindings will be > pushed too far. I think saying explictly It can be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe..." is a lot clearer (and helpful) for users than the current It is bound to C-h f, f, . Perhaps keeping it grouped with the binding info would be good, though. So: It is bound to C-h f and f It can also be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ... or something like that? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 15 05:28:45 2022 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Jan 2022 10:28:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39165 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n8gIe-0007rj-R3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 05:28:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54850) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n8gIb-0007rW-Ni for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 05:28:43 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=56124 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n8gIW-0003z4-82; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 05:28:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=AGmGjrbZhmQN+D6/b7P4SKT9EcWGMyvZ6p3KvgBfzJ0=; b=r/pxyJFSLkV2 V+5y+iBHn0EM9JsjbfDzVmPjY4RO4YX3FCt3qvTD/SaYoqiYRdkkFZUgFfPjEG135g/odW6kx/TUz 16zpYYwe5w9ZlMlGtk0yu+qO5ZokS89DVV44x6Ge9HQSDDpzDfWB2kT5yibyRuJnZmtBurVlHJih7 Vcu0RBYtj0cqo4J5sU4+EsPoHssS6svvhDEhSUX1UqitOXlgy43trJd0xWXhc6SlBvCHTN06MlM2J p7PEklNY8XFFfGROB0hByAjpasZoVIdnFWybY2xcG9TEdK1STSIUupvZ2BehmaTYhWU7HNe0rpPh4 cBBl+r+9+BDF7WXCKa7Q0A==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3416 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n8gIW-0007dc-8A; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 05:28:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 12:28:19 +0200 Message-Id: <834k651ef0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Sat, 15 Jan 2022 11:09:58 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Cc: Stefan Kangas , 52870@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 11:09:58 +0100 > > Perhaps keeping it grouped with the binding info would be good, though. > So: > > It is bound to C-h f and f > It can also be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ... > > or something like that? If you mean to have them one after the other, like shown above, I'm okay with that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 15 05:29:31 2022 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Jan 2022 10:29:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39169 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n8gJP-0007tE-3V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 05:29:31 -0500 Received: from mail-pf1-f174.google.com ([209.85.210.174]:43882) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n8gJN-0007t1-BZ for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 05:29:29 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 78so5114835pfu.10 for <52870@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 02:29:29 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RNiEcIgpKJYRvfxdKkDxifd2lDrUWJVJa+viZAReEx8=; b=SvoiG6uIzV+8ohH+wEjhhEGSyo2giQJs3tSF9qrZnA5i6Jzc4HHlt8OYbWqeojzS2j L7tYHt3gePqvzygBGtpNH1pQ3rzhnTRMP/B49ia2yEEQKW4JejLIndI3ups9TuBMeOrI hIjitLd/k8/iFrm42iA8CUYOoBh06sBmuYAbFiytBQqHIFm5TRayhhc+CkBxlob8Et6S IjrNZLXswZAELQd2a8vmtpCAUo8IaGV9tbN05/hx6yrFwNSTY/ceCWVxvq2WC0e1k8mI 4YLzriduaDj0F0iTxaiu+4NWZXuWZ+CLoXW5fmTpqPwG2EN0JBoEyfz3sS0zUkGKxL9A NC+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532bwlquv/aMQlVm+awhrlUuy/qPjvdjNgnhrjjJprz2UpFUHpQw oaSd8HHZjjEGsyUAJnWfNtDZTVOfo4ommh3kwho= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxMgJLzMjejaw1jDML1vrYH+BwqUrMJBXPPf/02E+LtFsWxcnjwL2FY2lKcyDhWZR41NBqkrUbkIZrXa9id1xI= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:86c9:0:b0:4c2:61c:1888 with SMTP id h9-20020aa786c9000000b004c2061c1888mr10124453pfo.70.1642242563414; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 02:29:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 02:29:22 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 02:29:22 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: >> The rationale is that hardly anyone ever looks at the "Probably >> introduced" line. Before it is slightly better, but not good enough: >> some doc strings are very long, so the menu-bar bindings will be >> pushed too far. FWIW, I disagree that putting it at the end "pushes it too far". Most docstrings can fit on a single screen so users will quickly learn where to find it. > Perhaps keeping it grouped with the binding info would be good, though. > So: > > It is bound to C-h f and f > It can also be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ... > > or something like that? Sounds good to me. 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References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 20:09:44 +0800 In-Reply-To: <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sat, 15 Jan 2022 11:09:58 +0100") Message-ID: <87k0f1b3p3.fsf@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.19594 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Content-Length: 1198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> What is your rationale for this? Is it easier to accept if it is before >>> the "Probably introduced" line? >> >> The rationale is that hardly anyone ever looks at the "Probably >> introduced" line. Before it is slightly better, but not good enough: >> some doc strings are very long, so the menu-bar bindings will be >> pushed too far. > > I think saying explictly > > It can be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe..." > > is a lot clearer (and helpful) for users than the current > > It is bound to C-h f, f, > . > > Perhaps keeping it grouped with the binding info would be good, though. > So: > > It is bound to C-h f and f > It can also be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ... > > or something like that? FWIW I think it would be a good idea to do something like this: It is bound to C-h f, f, (which means it can be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ...). Though I don't think I got the wording completely right there. 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Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6f14e990-be0a-46af-d8d1-08d9d8778cb9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Jan 2022 22:37:02.2240 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: fX+NhGcYdSAcsrOqecMn+S42c3WTgmoZWWB6mnLJbi5csTt+CGoqpAy8Jt6u5HIoRcuLCDg2r/MITMDelIdr6w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PH0PR10MB4549 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10228 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=847 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2201150147 X-Proofpoint-GUID: vmjbgfw_KDhbydHDLUovAiPFK86aOQy7 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: vmjbgfw_KDhbydHDLUovAiPFK86aOQy7 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: "52870@debbugs.gnu.org" <52870@debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > I think saying explictly > It can be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe..." > is a lot clearer (and helpful) for users than the current > It is bound to C-h f, f, > . No, it's not. It doesn't tell you the key binding (the menu it's in isn't the same thing). And it tells you nothing about how to find out more about that binding or to do something with its menu. This ain't broke. Please don't fix it. 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Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fa26e44f-adbd-4a5c-0dbe-08d9d8796e27 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Jan 2022 22:50:29.9394 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: T2keT1la+rf0Sh0hBJUyNelR0kbgGlv/tGskTTQXrqHiJr1WTllSNr6DOc8jinOGSHwl0B6EPrsTdY/mSXN1CA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR1001MB2338 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10228 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=780 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2201150149 X-Proofpoint-GUID: TWOFYEjVnibmvHvOX2kQ0sekuLo0OCJ9 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: TWOFYEjVnibmvHvOX2kQ0sekuLo0OCJ9 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: "52870@debbugs.gnu.org" <52870@debbugs.gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > FWIW I think it would be a good idea to do something like this: >=20 > It is bound to C-h f, f, > (which means it can be invoked from the menu: > "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ...). That too is reasonable. Don't lose what we have now. If you want to _add_ info to say which menu it's in (as you suggested), that's reasonable. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 15 18:44:27 2022 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Jan 2022 23:44:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42219 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n8sih-000060-0I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 18:44:27 -0500 Received: from mail-pf1-f176.google.com ([209.85.210.176]:40513) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n8sie-00005j-Iz for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 18:44:25 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-f176.google.com with SMTP id w204so6248231pfc.7 for <52870@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 15:44:24 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+suM35sp+DvFEtbdMu4nt4Xs16aQWR4KZ+yHcybQe3s=; b=iaGQMpSIrdrLTWtx/C1FajyUtEPhHZEBddJaYlE7gry/Jtklql9YskUfHQjjU6xi8P 9OekYeSwnrPxcT/OW1s7HUwAUa3Zt/24O2hXAAIslAxES4mr3XLqn6F0bM8AE79IIjla oXsF+mCb223+C7D30Y+o2gpqnU/2TBJ839emAvMkZklimwFoEB9Y8vYUJPWuPdVKmMIv aCmpMt6Pf+ZAwMu7DpCeJpx2Po41k8Xzjpv8xFjFQZncGCuu2LshsjbNNUeefkSmMm66 fyhL5ipgpHQlvItGkXCCNRgbQHqU11cL0ZrL168pC+Yi5uNbK0WI4VUONkHlJBpBDDs7 rm+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339alyPC/4MW/d2ID6WdGAbAzmSlSwyOvH0//2zIWeD7b5GOd50 P1g9/Ndc6M6Iy7sPQh/juD2tEzYjOX9ea86x4Zw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxplzUxsv5tUiLWlqoG6Fe/LOJTjcspGENLmBecOWZ/hG0gCJtMQ7mpi+O4PibewkMX3cyFmNLcWP/02SZSAD8= X-Received: by 2002:a63:81c6:: with SMTP id t189mr5919898pgd.325.1642290258747; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 15:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 15 Jan 2022 15:44:18 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0f1b3p3.fsf@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 15:44:18 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: RE: [External] : bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? To: Drew Adams , Po Lu , Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: "52870@debbugs.gnu.org" <52870@debbugs.gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Drew Adams writes: >> FWIW I think it would be a good idea to do something like this: >> >> It is bound to C-h f, f, >> (which means it can be invoked from the menu: >> "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ...). IMO, that would be a step backwards. This bug report started out with me saying that this information is already confusing and distracting, and this would make it even more so. I don't think we should pretend that menu items are key bindings, because they are not. That is just an implementation detail. Our user manual correctly contrasts the two: "Each Emacs frame normally has a 'menu bar' at the top which you can use to perform common operations ... "On a display that supports a mouse, you can use the mouse to choose a command from the menu bar ... "Some of the commands in the menu bar have ordinary key bindings as well; if so, a key binding is shown after the item itself." 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Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? 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([95.216.78.240]:48140) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nAVD8-00030D-6t for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jan 2022 06:02:34 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Bl2Az1ZXbE6GhcO+vMPydxJcYDVnzfxjT1lBPcPeS6A=; b=i/vHl23P6POYuaTg2a8ploZtny 8+2QWwaSiF2qer1xpwaZGLx+cxqKZ6PqPEPC3JveckW/gVbGZ3C+JJClXXfkI3R0AlMJ2XfAsQ0O5 sBioU8kSWFp5ZWZtYiEyxHeTuOjDu8RG8YxWoLLQ9U3XFfD3/XJgdQsiEqEkb/G2AN1M=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nAVCy-0004jl-S2; Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:02:27 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: <83wnjnk0at.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf03jqvr.fsf@gnu.org> <83tueqimwc.fsf@gnu.org> <87bl0dwbrd.fsf@gnus.org> <834k651ef0.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: The Rockats's _Special Club: Hiver 81-82_: "(Knockin') At My Front Door" Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:02:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: <834k651ef0.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 15 Jan 2022 12:28:19 +0200") Message-ID: <87bl063c1r.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> It is bound to C-h f and f >> It can also be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ... >> >> or something like that? > > If you mean to have them one after the other, like shown a [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> It is bound to C-h f and f >> It can also be invoked from the menu: "Help Menu" -> "Describe" ... >> >> or something like that? > > If you mean to have them one after the other, like shown above, I'm > okay with that. I've now almost implemented this. I'm trying to find something that maps [menu-bar help-menu describe describe-function] to "Help" -> "Describe" -> "Describe Function" but I'm not finding anything. I looked at the tmm code, and it does a lot of tedious keymap traversing to do its stuff, but then again, it's more extensive. Do we have a function somewhere that maps key strokes to menu names? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 25 15:16:02 2022 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2022 19:16:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36118 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nj4Bm-0003iq-23 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2022 15:16:02 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53024) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nj4Bk-0003iG-9i for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2022 15:16:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=hpQPlJKMVMag5hmJalMoBNjEJAEU2WieJIfAQcVQl6A=; b=LrU0XeDDjTQ74U59CZLsQj6R1s Aocf4uVu/dUtdAoeyccDn21LYGjFa5ASHbxrk6h4F8Xyb4UWt5htuVJEC13pVvnfYMgUqJfQ2WPM3 eGd8iPKIOQglfnbX/fOs+sKzBjQjmh08empYP9frUxsksYem+43uHeli4M+oWn78MInM=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nj4Bb-0006bE-7d; Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:15:53 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: X-Now-Playing: Xiu Xiu's _In Every Dream Home a Heartache XMFX 12_: "In Every Dream Home a Heartache" Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:15:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 29 Dec 2021 04:40:56 -0800") Message-ID: <874k2hkm8p.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > It can be invoked from the menu: "Operate" -> "Change Mode..." I previously implemented the split-up logic, but didn't output the menu item names. I've now also implemented this in Emacs 29. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > It can be invoked from the menu: "Operate" -> "Change Mode..." I previously implemented the split-up logic, but didn't output the menu item names. I've now also implemented this in Emacs 29. Some tweaking of the display (or what faces to use here) is probably necessary. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 25 15:16:08 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2022 19:16:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36121 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nj4Bs-0003jE-Br for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2022 15:16:08 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53040) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nj4Bq-0003ic-TS for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2022 15:16:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Miq6oXetG2OKQNriCjv0XJN8ux4pmHIWPlAnA4aRP4c=; b=bl4Eos6esjLDI+83L7OryEDqkc KQhuBDNy2Sh/UugVahZCm0bFdIcb6URv8SXHCj9iyTlYU/g3s3h/UHVxvuG0ytG738yXEDidTsdHh j5Slqws3ztbMThHB95WtyRBD4f6qyhm9SmDsrmWa9m2uT4LNul/p1147hZQeitiB1nBs=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nj4Bj-0006bN-6T for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:16:01 +0200 Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:15:57 +0200 Message-Id: <8735i1km8i.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #52870 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 52870 29.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 52870 29.1 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 28 03:01:20 2022 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2022 07:01:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45099 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1njy9Q-0006RG-M6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 03:01:20 -0400 Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.194]:54627) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1njy9O-0006R1-NU for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 03:01:19 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: juri@linkov.net) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27A2840018; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:01:10 +0000 (UTC) From: Juri Linkov To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <874k2hkm8p.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:49:59 +0300 In-Reply-To: <874k2hkm8p.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon, 25 Apr 2022 21:15:50 +0200") Message-ID: <86r15hya5k.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Some tweaking of the display (or what faces to use here) is probably > necessary. It fails on 'C-h f vc-diff', and I have no idea how to fix this. Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument listp vc-menu-map) ... help-fns--insert-menu-bindings(([menu-bar tools vc vc-diff]) "It can also be invoked from the menu: ") help-fns--key-bindings(vc-diff) describe-function-1(vc-diff) describe-function(vc-diff) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 28 06:17:12 2022 Received: (at 52870) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2022 10:17:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45426 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nk1Cy-0005AB-CV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 06:17:12 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52604) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nk1Cw-00059u-1q for 52870@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 06:17:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=SJDiP0roGimzfZcSqwHfTWVp4hud9DTrIBNUQdu6j08=; b=ZdnipNk20BvE/4g5T0JZI6yhEX 0ktvet7o4UdOONoMKYnZ2oeejt6mdhKZOCYrCyzNXXiCWq4OU9conmquWRcyG8dCA8FzJPIoQQbr0 tZQMfN6ZMdeLbbC3VAcRBkoGxUiO+a+ZByBK4WPLm1SKS1hTTo/y3zvmlm6i6ODsH8aI=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nk1Cn-0007xQ-1q; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:17:03 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#52870: Is displaying bindings in describe-function useful? References: <874k2hkm8p.fsf@gnus.org> <86r15hya5k.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEX046vr7dilur2G fHlPPDj///+AV5IAAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+YEHAoQNIVnf+oAAAGaSURBVDjLlZRh cuMwCIXtpAcI5AIB9gCN0AFaS/c/0z5hWVbazOwszo+ETw8Q4CxLt5VebTEzVbWffjoE9H+A3tjb xP8Gy0XNYTlpGLN2oJprybV2AHsMUIT0z1uARAOw3F5ALnVTlV+K29Vrfb4DjvwFXuEJbER3+Gv1 sO0A7itlr8PKDjwpP24haOnxpSscMe2+n0VMhEodwH+99iDEng+gj3W5WG1VBRgKTYtevPoe6gVo slwj+xfpDHJNHyXAd0zgAIZefPTkjs8AWiv1qnL1MisK9XugWcXTqdjo3osiLmkK9dUVT4At+dFd h4MDJCXSGWBjeM8gIDYAQivl6K0wnYPybxbi3CarcJ+jzXAoytrsB3CMWSgZmiYvy5CIW04c9rYl LAcIAUy17ZzoCUIBgbVAiHYCAiNlPIhLA1BTMAnHQ2RpACiU4sAMPF4ivblLuwiJfe4ghYLvXlbk Rm0TaL8NG+l7vT35swUSzW0NWnNGE+MOT4wU45b5VYvcCTt7dQ+/DIUwJ2mhVjZk4c/Fj3+Tiy6z /QW+xX8mOL9oVAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0wNC0yOFQxMDoxNjo1MiswMDowMOJr /KQAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjItMDQtMjhUMTA6MTY6NTIrMDA6MDCTNkQYAAAAAElF TkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Yukihiro Takahashi's _Blue Moon Blue_: "A Star Is Born" Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:17:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <86r15hya5k.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (Juri Linkov's message of "Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:49:59 +0300") Message-ID: <87k0b9pl5v.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Juri Linkov writes: > It fails on 'C-h f vc-diff', and I have no idea how to fix this. > > Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument listp vc-menu-map) > ... > help-fns--insert-menu-bindings(([menu-bar tools vc [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52870 Cc: 52870@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Juri Linkov writes: > It fails on 'C-h f vc-diff', and I have no idea how to fix this. > > Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument listp vc-menu-map) > ... > help-fns--insert-menu-bindings(([menu-bar tools vc vc-diff]) "It can also be invoked from the menu: ") > help-fns--key-bindings(vc-diff) > describe-function-1(vc-diff) > describe-function(vc-diff) Yup; now fixed. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Sat Aug 16 15:56:33 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 26 May 2022 11:24:13 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator