From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Phil Sainty Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 01:27:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 52290@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.163866757227774 (code B ref -1); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 01:27:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 01:26:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55807 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgI8-0007Dt-4O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 20:26:12 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:33480) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgI5-0007Dh-WD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 20:26:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34762) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgI5-0008Ul-R6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 20:26:09 -0500 Received: from smtp-1.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.34]:44965) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgI1-0004lM-Kd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 20:26:09 -0500 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=42467 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-1.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgHq-0002a7-Mb for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 14:25:57 +1300 Received: from ip-14-137-22-223.kinect.net.nz ([14.137.22.223]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 14:25:54 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 14:25:54 +1300 From: Phil Sainty Message-ID: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- Received-SPF: pass client-ip=60.234.4.34; envelope-from=psainty@orcon.net.nz; helo=smtp-1.orcon.net.nz X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Many standard generalized variables are not listed in the manual at (info "(elisp)Setting Generalized Variables") or otherwise documented as generalized vars so far as I can see. The omission of `buffer-local-value' was what led me to check these, as it's utilised by the likes of `electric-indent-local-mode' for the :variable declaration, which I found confusing until I'd looked at the code in detail, seen that `setf' was being used on that form, and found that gv.el did indeed define this as a generalized var even though the docs didn't mention it. Comparing the manual node with the contents of gv.el... In 27.2 there are fairly few omissions from the manual: - buffer-local-value - char-table-range - cond - cons - edebug-after - if - let - let* - logand - progn In 28.0.90 the list is huge: - buffer-file-name - buffer-local-value - buffer-modified-p - buffer-name - buffer-string - buffer-substring - char-table-range - cond - cons - current-buffer - current-column - current-global-map - current-input-mode - current-local-map - current-window-configuration - default-file-modes - documentation-property - edebug-after - eq - error - face-background - face-background-pixmap - face-font - face-foreground - face-underline-p - file-modes - frame-height - frame-parameters - frame-visible-p - frame-width - get-register - getenv - global-key-binding - gv-deref - if - let - let* - local-key-binding - logand - mark - mark-marker - marker-position - mouse-position - plist-get - point - point-marker - point-max - point-min - progn - read-mouse-position - screen-height - screen-width - selected-frame - selected-screen - selected-window - standard-case-table - substring - syntax-table - visited-file-modtime - window-height - window-width - x-get-secondary-selection This list of omissions is close to twice the length of the *documented* cases. I think the manual should list these, but also at this point I think the help for any generalized variable should *automatically* state that fact, so that any future omissions are still covered to some extent, and also so that non-standard generalized vars defined by other libraries will have some documentation. -Phil In GNU Emacs 28.0.90 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo version 1.15.10, Xaw scroll bars) of 2021-12-03 built on phil-lp Repository revision: 292ae07e7150a9515b587bd98f9e93ab42c3fb29 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12008000 System Description: Ubuntu 18.04.6 LTS Configured using: 'configure --prefix=/home/phil/emacs/28.0/usr/local --with-x-toolkit=lucid --without-sound --with-native-compilation' Configured features: CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11 XDBE XIM XPM LUCID ZLIB Important settings: value of $LC_MONETARY: en_NZ.UTF-8 value of $LC_NUMERIC: en_NZ.UTF-8 value of $LC_TIME: en_NZ.UTF-8 value of $LANG: en_NZ.UTF-8 value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: Lisp Interaction Minor modes in effect: tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t eldoc-mode: t show-paren-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t indent-tabs-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs auth-source eieio eieio-core eieio-loaddefs password-cache json map text-property-search time-date mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils sort comp comp-cstr warnings subr-x rx cl-seq cl-macs cl-extra help-mode seq byte-opt gv cl-loaddefs cl-lib bytecomp byte-compile cconv rect mule-util jka-compr info iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting cairo x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process native-compile emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 105925 9366) (symbols 48 8419 1) (strings 32 29142 2540) (string-bytes 1 935587) (vectors 16 18250) (vector-slots 8 355739 12899) (floats 8 34 34) (intervals 56 826 11) (buffers 992 13)) From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 01:36:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Phil Sainty Cc: 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.16386681135039 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 01:36:01 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 01:35:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55817 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgQr-0001JB-A5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 20:35:13 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44196) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgQp-0001Im-A6 for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 20:35:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RexqYFBAE1ufO1IcRPZ2OeVyfbd/YcJV8ZjVMtD7DgU=; b=u7PQt7uFCQwocQaAqg1nmNCa88 7pPR85/jpyGwuipkG5khHLfT9rpqV/SBBVwRFwlZbbh/W/8jhuGf2NPDqUZBczat84mzZPHqnrODs XfuTewylxZpU8Q2R6eAfp0/gJIxsxkHmQCWfxlTYp3VX+mZZj31BMxwBLberyrcxnVxE=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgQe-0002ai-UY; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:35:04 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAJFBMVEW6FizDFS5nNx5s SyF3MSGlIyiMKiVXWB6QGyRcXiCEQyf///+m4zYeAAAAAWJLR0QLH9fEwAAAAAd0SU1FB+UMBQEf JIjovdoAAAEWSURBVDjLrdRBS8MwFADg9xgd9Pbe5oY7i3draRFPk1nZUZBlHgPOULzKhkdlMq+7 tPhzzaIDWfPGAsuhh3x5ee8loQBucGMAEDCyD6wQ2q9lIrJrkJjs9Fmh553Z8ulx9cnZ3e2w3S3U Tesyh7STrQfng+lV2qOqqjGNW9cRaA3zL5NMkwf1vZ716qo+XbzEcdmPPuBtOXp+XaTvdZZ3TX4x zvORStQJglHGFKbU923dVyszNGZSTiBiTwfbchFopw/8BSkCgyF8K9gH/6NIApRgG9KEg5IfC1AE ksAvm63Is5t9ckzsh+ad/4EVX8mb10x+QBHI2yO4sgKPJBj4eCAkAemm3JEIEWKOgOTE7pe0C+Rm fwDqiV9uYmYg8wAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0xMi0wNVQwMTozMTozNiswMDowMDbX BPAAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTItMDVUMDE6MzE6MzYrMDA6MDBHirxMAAAAAElF TkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Talking Heads's _77_: "Pulled Up" Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:35:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> (Phil Sainty's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 14:25:54 +1300") Message-ID: <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Phil Sainty writes: > In 28.0.90 the list is huge: I don't think many of those are new -- they were just moved from cl-lib.el to gv.el, because it seemed weird to have them in cl-lib.el. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Phil Sainty writes: > In 28.0.90 the list is huge: I don't think many of those are new -- they were just moved from cl-lib.el to gv.el, because it seemed weird to have them in cl-lib.el. And we probably want to deprecate a whole bunch of them, because many of them are just nonsensical. But we don't really have a deprecation mechanisme for generalised variables, so it's just hard. > I think the manual should list these, but also at this point I think > the help for any generalized variable should *automatically* state > that fact, so that any future omissions are still covered to some > extent, and also so that non-standard generalized vars defined by > other libraries will have some documentation. The manual should absolutely not list most of these, because we don't want anybody to use them, and we want to remove many (most?) of the undocumented ones. We just have to figure out how to do that in an orderly fashion. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 01:57:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.163866937516423 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 01:57:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 01:56:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55864 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtglD-0004Gp-BQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 20:56:15 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:32835) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtglB-0004GU-JF for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 20:56:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1638669359; bh=+rrv5lwmQow5l3PwUVNLUBUamKlNu0SYIThbrgNQXRI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=oo5Y+RuBWjMvCneP+L/CmVKtNzJcAgWdGw6IyXgpy9wZUn4SkMjBXXRiCed36zukd yoPT2z8XXfBijecJd6YT5ZYF4CeEBtXJhfA0StvXF6zc8EX54tFRxywkzQt9y8x7SN 9IZhNiMzo+3dAQtALdX+aQnFlfONbfsR/vnx5yr4= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.225.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MfKtb-1mNdC93sr5-00gLaI; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:55:59 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:55:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:35:00 +0100") Message-ID: <87bl1v4xxu.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rxgV/suPmp5YLXS5rSqhj68rp+Uf9Zq7PD65qZQi5GdnK1DI7kw rt0Ds17PMbfE78TsHbbyy82CXJa2HmSjaS3S3vuR38AdJnqyI/lbLd6rAJ+z47JzH/cv1tw Vn3hLqO1TI2e5WUMgBqcv7BujsaUvQZtpLAwWNG3+Ou9UXHPFD0FPpAknYIAOkdvcHFCoh1 cGJATKbBJQZv58RmftbDQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Sqp6icj+aLg=:EkmA2GqL7Gl1VJQ5o9aS0/ ITkXsGSdv/ZWRwWE9nVqGQvZIg4MmhnXUGaRtKjEYdH5m15+BGV8XNrRuhwagIO4SqEihPl7M KqwpN9v3XnQT//SXsICDp3dAmkunXAxdrUwSJwOmz8+mUnMmJdyATEK8H6SHCCqUqBqUZSbVq SrjmNLBVmVlp6AqCREFYp8wGnzh7ZwPgoQxZo1nRfHWFiBJY2bSAiyz8VYVx9N+qwSvX34pzd nlCbDGScePNfwSuYL62TBO6M3VX1o5Q1H3XFp0QyAF2w07JqkoVnM+k+tolJ3+reCUswpwpTq C3p/Ul7Tl2VLsHbLd0KXI6MQVMWcB19rgTiJru5D1ZjIRpd12je7Q+x+0sqJdqzGZNxud3L0W i+pzwJRvXpnwCXtj3/g0CDlvmgJZFsG8psw1nDuSO7YqeKb9HvEIgZPvkJfjsSMgGrGVDyN2g QxJ5rv+ySEDIcsWd0OK/t/zruHYPtQpzcwSRbF5v3Wduen+PPd3K/JFn2ZLmpSsFaKIv0XXv4 kjS1LzqVfWlQjlFqbmgYbWHJ0lylsfEYddcM2jISDHTUGjPFDviil0l1KNk2UNpN18Z9I8J8I 2E6P9EvOW5GHYiCTLQm8r108vdokb8sz0balK6oyxSwHUPmfVKp/mArG4Wd/ZErZW14DCf4yo Wq7Tu4SnwxR5aK255d4p0IU52jbwJNCvd8rA+n+miSvP8McJj2JGlztkFlAIMT3h5sHI4Jq3l oqKqK+Yu1zLCDeAp9Tci9YHh3KIS3caaEifQsHmMGYYgNH/2y96TqGFRidY8hcuJnxInbwUMV 2sP+d15Mg348U6M+nLL4YjdUHwKXnhHFycRL+PdW3xtsE9ucM3C6ijOYnHVsNXgv4yYw1paXp Gs0o+HxpWxuv2aQQP4FDpYlkKDR8CWv748dOR41YiXomKNfbaQd3wOhyh1RXV++U/hKfuq7lw 86U6IP4SRqBXcHkTGy8owJ0tPa/9fPaY0+rhy9kgfEAdUnA45LxhPdKI+ugJ7gDbi+KXhzNz3 YOdwsz9fsgtBrMJ1f7RXZrZi01vDclzdAsu70YcufGUMvgiR8FXVZZb7VOrzJpyCyXQ5uyjc2 6OdFAT1ZWJqjvU= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > And we probably want to deprecate a whole bunch of them, because many of > them are just nonsensical. Which are nonsensical? Michael. From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:02:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.163866966420912 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:02:01 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 02:01:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55881 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgpr-0005Qr-GU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:01:03 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44608) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgpp-0005JT-PG for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:01:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=3zVVFOt497YBVFtP+e/eKwAguqY6UFJE6UpJ+nGqLcA=; b=UeoBL1wF373P2KUMLT8GBDz3U1 EggmKr3wJt9Q7+H9JxQBaWdcF1DSP049gHTW1XibJma3VYa+eoTvp+RvgLK1BqJHc9bQNWrP7ZA/i vba5ujPf6tDzMFZ38/RtquTlrKag61FRX3R7M/oJtVCJgeiOLzv6HOhsCQdw6ONsgcV0=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgpg-0002vi-2B; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:00:54 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87bl1v4xxu.fsf@web.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEUtMTxYWmd+d32n m57XzdL///+nVHuPAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UMBQE5L9zk53YAAAGtSURBVDjLpZPb deQwCIbROgUAcgFjqQFLqIDdI/Vf0wKSJ5M5Tl7Cw1z4DPxcDPCDIacj0cF81BRTIoQABGR2ENOb TRAI57/wBm7s9yD2cAtyxzvAbVz+ZIBzLiQibYxHSJSOKNUAp+lUOyHr75QcIFUWcX+BFLMBNWBk iUO6hvyDTfSZaTqtUOLoYv4gonPM0ionQJ1uOKiNDiEWregDVaCCdcy7+xNnIwaqRsQS4tAGkhXI XFcfClATIfzR8lJ1NatzgIBBGxNWvRXmRg4HANsDZoNdwTUrVaUC9nFZ+UwFEMer9cJpAYRNU3Vp NjQEPK6IdwvfAboFCH5tM5Tz6MSFffozl4P9qypdL9AzqS3nauHb4lZEH87lXe0JlszWqKsTfGxo Oy2wd8KlWcF4/N1xDtKmUBz4lcH5AlT0BRKVJjegPdsQEDszkE7x3Nbgu1/U8E+7yfPj/BS7wzAC rvAVxPAEVsVuIqaaxHe2Ki1daIUa7H753UAlnu9LzkNwguE1ajw//MRVCcYXIHRGu4NexSLGAm2o y7l9nWtrM0KD2wS9fAHTlLpSB/8BlpCDa1pgnbwAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMTIt MDVUMDE6NTc6NDYrMDA6MDDZubftAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTEyLTA1VDAxOjU3 OjQ2KzAwOjAwqOQPUQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Supertramp's _Even in the Quietest Moments_: "Lover Boy" Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:00:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87bl1v4xxu.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:55:57 +0100") Message-ID: <87r1aru7xo.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen writes: >> And we probably want to deprecate a whole bunch of them, because many of >> them are just nonsensical. > > Which are nonsensical? I think Stefan had a list of the worst ones... `point-max', for instance, is pretty egregious. Well, looking at that list -- most of are just the worst. =?UTF-8?Q?=F0=9F=A4=90?= Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: >> And we probably want to deprecate a whole bunch of them, because many of >> them are just nonsensical. > > Which are nonsensical? I think Stefan had a list of the worst ones... `point-max', for instance, is pretty egregious. Well, looking at that list -- most of are just the worst. =F0=9F=A4=90 --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Phil Sainty Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:10:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.163867015526728 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:10:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 02:09:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55889 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgxm-0006x2-Md for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:09:14 -0500 Received: from smtp-1.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.34]:43729) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgxl-0006wt-BE for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:09:13 -0500 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=19605 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-1.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtgxh-0005Fy-Lx; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 15:09:09 +1300 Received: from ip-14-137-22-223.kinect.net.nz ([14.137.22.223]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 15:09:09 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 15:09:09 +1300 From: Phil Sainty In-Reply-To: <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2021-12-05 14:35, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > I don't think many of those are new -- they were just moved from > cl-lib.el to gv.el, because it seemed weird to have them in cl-lib.el. Aha. I'd seen that the cl docs had a bunch of extensions, but didn't think to re-check those docs in 28.0.90. > But we don't really have a deprecation mechanisme for generalised > variables, so it's just hard. I guess we'd want a new define-obsolete-* function, and for the setf macro to be flagging uses of obsolete PLACE forms at compile time? It looks to me as if `gv-get' might be the right place to be checking this (but I'm only looking at the internals for the first time and don't have a good handle on this stuff). > The manual should absolutely not list most of these, because we don't > want anybody to use them, and we want to remove many (most?) of the > undocumented ones. > > We just have to figure out how to do that in an orderly fashion. Fair enough. Should we start by deciding which ones we *should* document, and at least get that much added for 28.1? `buffer-local-value' is a clear "yes" vote from me (and I don't currently have an opinion on anything else). -Phil From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:26:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.163867113229566 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:26:01 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 02:25:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55905 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mthDY-0007gn-I4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:25:32 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:39817) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mthDW-0007gI-Ar for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:25:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1638671114; bh=ivp6ooN/DNWLul7za7xzMwY6QK8Ms+hLuBEZ1lLE/Q8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Nz+RD07vLsu3hjk2+cFL3TigFnelZvvQYUARicy5sWuvTfmn1TIJhnuNvA6ouIlFz fZNFre6YOM2S0MspkP2NvOFgFq+wrITk9xxl/U1PDPjz/00jJsx52lg/nRP5V5T6ne H5Ci/zZNwuiMMh6uEZ3ujw2C1B33CTuMXDcHRrWU= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.225.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N0qqv-1mftpH0GZR-00wNgs; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:25:14 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87bl1v4xxu.fsf@web.de> <87r1aru7xo.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:25:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87r1aru7xo.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:00:51 +0100") Message-ID: <87ee6rbxfb.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fdjU8x3wr6TmvdiwJw/R+23BbYJlgMUtJR1LFE4q8M1Dy3C/+lR 74MJzFm3KTNYMwr1IVlFwHUw8TKHMlHdCV3g0Lt3L2QI6CDioIVBLlVBY5KyN/wZASyjSYa lq435+fSVH/b+nKRTQptU0bYSp2oNVmZuJQv9T/vYokM3AWagOEMAYrIBzrrL3utH9ba0YN a0EwFaAy2TTponUalmhJA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:FeG33wAyoCk=:v4iOF244qsVMwMQ6YNRmW1 n/05emaYrQMFYnZFh0kwydqPKmSdg5EkBE5bJvoW0x2BGVZXIUlqF1GSaLiVugm4xG7lDfRlI L9rSIBck2VgmWCjUhjRis2lApZBlCTll9dsgsotzSafd+90ZwvLnS/nOjBrE3EfFfWy4Dj3oe DQKUsw6M0zov+NOkVyMp5bkv0fFk+t4tD08sKtsqsRH17ZIfZolCdtXfJNFyYFatgl+9HT9jR xD0c2kePui5EANE4pREBbrWLHroBhs9bEJBhk9AkSrrGIMHPQ2WBLMVtuzIUm43NMfDUVev18 PVE/QZMWEpdw9+sLXzVtwMamw4pwP7l4K0PM5cprBhNy2nRBOPqLFA+Nk6Uq2UmSCKGBYMkLX yIjDtXxLDfuNj2Jeg1jeCGLLcYzvx83KkqdjB+eb1EwDc+CepsbPfSoi5rczNoyuI5SaY63CH l0hlg+aIkOLiWHJH2ZMdDmnnzL64YJhtzvb92lRtFuMyTxHkW4vDQgD3zBtrhfLEsZYZutFgz t2+EW2O/OQIH2ks6cQsxLE5X8s1Ep/JXWGnZ7N+3wcpZ6XWrBd8qY9X1zL/7G0Z4WMy1X3fwF uuJHhbzHw+mvxDBXP/pShLQC1yfUhqUcyP/dsA1KS4cvg6TX3XZvp1kJ1GbiQv0dOa/KQSF+A gdthr+55vX8lfqDWcjkXu34h02EP2/n2YShuytStkz44QqZu1xPfMfA7GnBIA31KttjhfAvUT mN5WuKPJYNc7K/DI4FeZhDHWv8n0XzKg9dzBsKulwg3EuPFnAoMBGc6yaok0YsWgpObT2OqNi Wmg3z1ha/9Ftm3fr3q9HpFxqNH7m6shmYxNXHkvvqSnOmPWf0kk9qr09wwtEPBDLMjnrmzzL5 Dba8y+ZLY3OyfRRWAvio6zy3/SqGbiy48SIMcHNLF24cdQQ4/m1RkPTRh2b4Z28YgHeeSQXX6 0kz3nywYD+Ou9ec2/U4MaFooW/zCeL/zijZE6bRids12QdZr5h4Fzp0DwaYpeGhEVXEtxNsQq yqEtZR+fDmA16Dbs9HRdGNdLcMP20v7Ct6GTeqH+OaPdIu2M2v6JDGTje7kFIe3ZJi8nDNNcO O9bL1t9MOFM1RQ= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think Stefan had a list of the worst ones... `point-max', for > instance, is pretty egregious. Well, looking at that list -- most of > are just the worst. =F0=9F=A4=90 Ok, `point-max' is not so useful. I only wanted to note that some generalized vars might be more useful with `cl-letf' than with plain setf, you get some extra kinds of excursions gratis (sometimes doesn't work as expected though). Example: #+begin_src emacs-lisp (cl-letf (((cons (point-min) (point-max)) (cons (line-beginning-position) (line-end-position)))) (recursive-edit)) #+end_src Michael. From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:47:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Phil Sainty Cc: 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.16386723849257 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:47:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 02:46:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mthXk-0002PF-Iu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:46:24 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44982) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mthXi-0002Oy-CN for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:46:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=hivU1nh5JsVDj7SdqgwXoBjwKEs+uSTNi2g6W164CY4=; b=ER/66qB5udmWqm1VMEIz9vrYQY GumCCjdsvSxH+POBkpZkGDaLbC+3PZ7cAHf3v02SFB1dt6FXEJ6J+egW0eqAHMnD8mGJeD04xlWCM U3Re823fs96r8oBOPkufbT64S8zwLkYFjCblrEFHb+tMjPJJnr6h9ALHYrA+WffrNdZk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mthXY-0003Oj-3L; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:46:14 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEVTLCchERJtSTKQ UTX///9NncUgAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UMBQIrHveIKcYAAAFrSURBVDjLlZRtlsMg CEUBNwDpBhQ3kOr+9zaAxjid9Md4Thv1yoc8EgCUMRhhGwoD2B8gcGZE9oUAHGUYYJxg5OkBaII1 LlBPeSRwmX4OGIfwGxB8BO4OHwDDlxgB+AHE1Y4PU9/kEiBqhLMEvsIdBHPTmBbz+FrA/HGLUkux I4lvC66KMTHANwBOPcO0kN+gAc4YOyAmGMGpoGwxCIZQqlqUcg1gvklpaOsWGWyRbct+2hJMgEKQ RWyvn6q1p2xbM3H162rvZ6utU5tA/OGaAGWlhpxRLnB3x9RUIpGnfgCG/wEv/KPkHmoBDo1ucOAC 8AyGeHgD2YHbeWP+sbAd6xPum9cJUjadoAWYrxFFDHofLup+hyM7SCflBbb3wywSOfI570Dfpmbt 3qF4NfYECg48ma3BJZu8p7XcSvdKmvsb0tu+DEuxK8iraSqSVmXv8JhSwbrAdh+qRRbADVdrrAtE Qvb5iUWvBfoPZYFAcZyWubYAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMTItMDVUMDI6NDM6MzAr MDA6MDDFA5i6AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTEyLTA1VDAyOjQzOjMwKzAwOjAwtF4g BgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Pink Floyd's _Animals_: "Pigs On The Wing (Part One)" Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:46:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Phil Sainty's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 15:09:09 +1300") Message-ID: <87mtlfu5u4.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Phil Sainty writes: > I guess we'd want a new define-obsolete-* function, and for the setf > macro to be flagging uses of obsolete PLACE forms at compile time? Yup. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Phil Sainty writes: > I guess we'd want a new define-obsolete-* function, and for the setf > macro to be flagging uses of obsolete PLACE forms at compile time? Yup. > It looks to me as if `gv-get' might be the right place to be checking > this (but I'm only looking at the internals for the first time and > don't have a good handle on this stuff). Perhaps Stefan has some opinions here. > Fair enough. Should we start by deciding which ones we *should* > document, and at least get that much added for 28.1? > > `buffer-local-value' is a clear "yes" vote from me (and I don't > currently have an opinion on anything else). Yes, `buffer-local-value' seems useful. I think we should implement the obsoletion mechanism and then just go through that list and obsolete all the stuff that doesn't seem useful (and isn't used in-tree). And then document the rest, as well as make the *Help* buffer mention that they're generalised variables. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:53:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.163867277810065 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 02:53:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 02:52:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55920 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mthe6-0002cF-AM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:52:58 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:45020) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mthe4-0002c1-IK for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:52:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=nzpo/pHgrCxAkre7ylLFTj39JvEuAolvAqD08APjk60=; b=l5XQir6eRJH5eOwoT+9mLopozV 0aBmcccBL5WeR+RrM+k9sjcqNxrZ49lhJrTcv36WzSgooayEgWpsAiMqtO/ryGoe2rfSsygCJbZjA EY9mN4TR1wpFXLtjxYqvi/7bT1gf70D5RlHdpyfxTJ5V1UfVX14qiD6yHKCijlQcbwJc=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mthdv-0003Rj-0V; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:52:49 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87bl1v4xxu.fsf@web.de> <87r1aru7xo.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee6rbxfb.fsf@web.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEVTLCchERJtSTKQ UTX///9NncUgAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UMBQIrHveIKcYAAAFrSURBVDjLlZRtlsMg CEUBNwDpBhQ3kOr+9zaAxjid9Md4Thv1yoc8EgCUMRhhGwoD2B8gcGZE9oUAHGUYYJxg5OkBaII1 LlBPeSRwmX4OGIfwGxB8BO4OHwDDlxgB+AHE1Y4PU9/kEiBqhLMEvsIdBHPTmBbz+FrA/HGLUkux I4lvC66KMTHANwBOPcO0kN+gAc4YOyAmGMGpoGwxCIZQqlqUcg1gvklpaOsWGWyRbct+2hJMgEKQ RWyvn6q1p2xbM3H162rvZ6utU5tA/OGaAGWlhpxRLnB3x9RUIpGnfgCG/wEv/KPkHmoBDo1ucOAC 8AyGeHgD2YHbeWP+sbAd6xPum9cJUjadoAWYrxFFDHofLup+hyM7SCflBbb3wywSOfI570Dfpmbt 3qF4NfYECg48ma3BJZu8p7XcSvdKmvsb0tu+DEuxK8iraSqSVmXv8JhSwbrAdh+qRRbADVdrrAtE Qvb5iUWvBfoPZYFAcZyWubYAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMTItMDVUMDI6NDM6MzAr MDA6MDDFA5i6AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTEyLTA1VDAyOjQzOjMwKzAwOjAwtF4g BgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Pink Floyd's _Animals_: "Dogs" Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:52:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ee6rbxfb.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:25:12 +0100") Message-ID: <87ilw3u5j8.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen writes: > I only wanted to note that some generalized vars might be more useful > with `cl-letf' than with plain setf, you get some extra kinds of > excursions gratis (sometimes doesn't work as expected thoug [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: > I only wanted to note that some generalized vars might be more useful > with `cl-letf' than with plain setf, you get some extra kinds of > excursions gratis (sometimes doesn't work as expected though). Example: > > #+begin_src emacs-lisp > (cl-letf (((cons (point-min) (point-max)) > (cons (line-beginning-position) (line-end-position)))) > (recursive-edit)) > #+end_src That's... quote obscure. =F0=9F=98=80 Being able to say `(decf (point))' seems kinda nice, but I think even that is a bit on the obscure side. I.e., all the generalised variables that are used for side effect (as opposed to mutating an explicit object) are liable to cause confusion. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 18:08:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.16387276821716 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 18:08:04 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 18:08:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59243 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtvvd-0000RO-W0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 13:08:02 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:58213) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtuCg-0006Dv-JV for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 11:17:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1638721034; bh=gXZOaop2sDlWRMDFnPK+pvleg70VWoZ7xpr48C7pQR0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=OrIt6sADsSPIKcPObZrhtevQfIiRBbSavurRjXRMcI+hpuT17qWpZhmI3uBjoisAG eFXNKpGqhcg3QnOXUzRWZkn90wkjTShbaevGK2dPPndg5Hj7n6EBXM+EezrqM0U89q CFU3aIboMjzh7DOVzPNAxPJGcfJT7580I+MwJ1tI= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.225.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MPKB5-1nCpjL125d-00PWfA; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 17:17:14 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87bl1v4xxu.fsf@web.de> <87r1aru7xo.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee6rbxfb.fsf@web.de> <87ilw3u5j8.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 17:17:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ilw3u5j8.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:52:43 +0100") Message-ID: <878rwzauwn.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Y0q2Y0N1rcxyhOXKJL+fpIB8S2SCb5wRyExzbh/9ZALS/ns6LwI I3+raJ/4B5Kng4lMry3Ho7grHiufAeaFO+HLMpbmrN2wxU7tDNwqrhI7ZPtVOQk481cvubc In8kQzAq9sF2oo8ZkXosjdc+t7DjSuG5KpOSrc7LbjG4HTNoimtM4A3JM0fEr4lTz/EOjCg uzyeaccs9Eya2aywsemWA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:MLydP7P0knQ=:ZcqGMgvPSufRGWtb2eMLSb tT5WobHg47y62Z9gbL9rwu/kcTucHS7XnuDNZ5B+CYsq332bqm4pMN8G1vlCBveQOwP0rlEF2 tV2VMI26T7p5L5hQPOtNdKVbM11EZ6PEZiCVn5Z6+SFZxn4OJQ7dMsGATO7eplg6v6V3TNceB 0FF6cYYkEN+Z2K5M8+ahDgwYepnuc1qFgia5kwTgaS9LVA1/l92oiJSF/zwyZMW8st7ByI9aF JHbXofN6SOlFen72rlmG5BDg4MWXqeCR5NKdPVxI6LDLMLU8xg/yomAw5PU5mMrsZpJ/Q0uLn PQ4W7PMHiGaP+jZ71bM6zL7onla+ENhvHiyCLEc5IBH73b5qOO/oSt4pvtQCskWNHIPw1V1K+ LeNlAz/HL5swaj6SK/GkJHHHPKLUmeyY7uVDnoq/1j3ocm8OvIpMMTzt5dXVTtcxZm65UVBS5 oiiI344tMnMCRhDSYMCmK8gDpQ5+qFLsMfpurV8dInkAwvulnKRdsTh63+r6NlPgF7+Shp/80 FW0Z2pn69rGraPa4arSqFsF/p1fq30TkqEdco07NrcleqdNMN/VzlPOMu8e2YKCq71VqW08gs U7lcHBRjuLo+kuLURlDVLxsmfcLKAzl6UrEapbn8Nz8OIT2PCXM1SbEPO9flsnV/g3C/1r/T+ T+L6+CA0zjfowYEB1T47lgVf7znXhEITVPpZkLofbtUwZQSoX7R2OA4fRRICmhvnZMwbnHOdG 3XcissTNeB6u3WihZBS79ot1V9NnhsH0yzu34nBwpY5dXGF9ZajHe3S/7SIXL+GJ19XqIUCvH j7Uw+7EjzTjIlO5il1fJzFpxi1bBiQTxKgozjrLNuLyUMBUs6VUolbDEsqSyTJZyLcjfpULP9 ICG/kmlTMd0/sUf04iNs0Ypd9vrbPeSDf1DPW5zPyJPYxiKL3AvyesNj0wi6G2lmF71dLng4Z 3sRXR0rrbFdMxmOSqeFTlcJ20rU20zV8Gi+ORfgzTb6ZOn9rwYmZcWaQL39PNqmyV3b9MPdg9 oLsPaPP4M86EZBO9Y1YZ/qO9LtWgFnOb2wVloXkflx30q1uZ89kdBoGhYEJoxBsxMz2rnXGSt rf8onG0Q4odxb4= X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > [...] I.e., all the generalised variables that are used for side > effect (as opposed to mutating an explicit object) are liable to cause > confusion. I would want to limit this to the kind of side effect: is it undoubtedly clear what it is, is there a "canonical" side effect? This is the case e.g. for `buffer-modified-p' to a high degree, but not for e.g. `point-max': there are several ways to achieve that `point-max' will return a certain value - killing a certain amount of text, for example. Or narrowing. Narrowing was not the thing that came to my mind first. A setter for it might cause confusion because the semantics are not clear, in contrast to `buffer-modified-p', I think, where it is quite clear. I mean, Emacs is an editor, so we have more aspects of state than variable bindings. Setting variables can also have other side effects than simply changing the variable's binding. Per se I don't see a problem in considering more kinds of state (more than variables) as places. OTOH, `point-max' for example is not really a self-contained part of state, it's a value of a computation, a derived value. The classification result can be a bit subjective and depend on the viewing point, of course. Michael. From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 20:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.163873705011349 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 20:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2021 20:44:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59722 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtyMj-0002wz-T9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 15:44:10 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56014) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtyMi-0002wl-8G for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 15:44:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=lETItZXRkimKT5U5Myv2HzrUY5AtmBMFMoikJIV8QKs=; b=l8r7OK2t4oFJkf1VRClqEUwUDg Wp6Byl4YkBOBGKqlIO7d9XGQCKXjeTI7/Yu2hA5vh4wi/wfj69sJjXjEPePl4yaBqWi795TYHT25B KaAHUW3l60jDkJB71nSIzOf0yV8lbQrrdMxXMeJRq6lqGjVyfDo6hz5ELU6yHNpVJZpI=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtyMX-0002nG-1L; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 21:43:59 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87bl1v4xxu.fsf@web.de> <87r1aru7xo.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee6rbxfb.fsf@web.de> <87ilw3u5j8.fsf@gnus.org> <878rwzauwn.fsf@web.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEU/Fhi/qJ22FiP/ ///QDgF2AAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+UMBRQXL80Oj8EAAAFTSURBVCjPTdGxasMwEAbg 3yKGoCmBurOXFqOnSKFZMjVQG+o9S55CCArBW4dkyKQYWsT/lL2TY4gNkj6fTnfIgDzFAm4YeNX1 erOCSyQV7QeMC+SfbhI01k2RYruBBzkKiv0nLPS7A0rZVVsylTvgfbsxtWSgPGKxXsHWGjA7VBUQ DRmr9oiqlYBTHI7YS7oG8CM5sks78Ti/EU+Q4lKirY6EQbRJqrYvA2HNibHsi0NhpZ3aC7qv7qJo LMfX53VHQUiOt9/u1kl7iHJuPHRjhhZJL/31ovACfvdnKoyC/ZCR1xc+gLK0TBMGeQNH3L/r5TyA c86MoEVnxDBjkNMCbUaSe5CsGR7j0tnkMuQC/R3SAFKwRjEqWLuMKPngMkIRJB8coolOm5CfSDY2 5gMU42lCUiQ/IWbIAVJx9FOOjJEWGcs8uQk+T82EmKdpzAVMjv8Dvofiv+ZbvdIAAAAldEVYdGRh dGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMTItMDVUMjA6MjM6NDcrMDA6MDBj5hSIAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlm eQAyMDIxLTEyLTA1VDIwOjIzOjQ3KzAwOjAwErusNAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Kraftwerk's _The Man Machine_: "Metropolis" Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 21:43:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <878rwzauwn.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 17:17:12 +0100") Message-ID: <87o85uok8j.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen writes: > I would want to limit this to the kind of side effect: is it undoubtedly > clear what it is, is there a "canonical" side effect? Nope, I don't think so. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: > I would want to limit this to the kind of side effect: is it undoubtedly > clear what it is, is there a "canonical" side effect? Nope, I don't think so. Some time back, somebody wrote a library to make Emacs more functional-ish, and the main bugaboo was Emacs' buffer concept. I get the feeling that many (some) people that haven't encountered it before are just horrified by it. "You mean... you put... text!!!... into a ... buffer!!!!... and then you operate on it!? WHERE"S MY SMELLING SALTS" So the library was like (remove-empty-lines BUF) which returned a new buffer with the empty lines removed. (I think. My brain may be making that bit up.) > This is the case e.g. for `buffer-modified-p' to a high degree, but > not for e.g. `point-max': there are several ways to achieve that > `point-max' will return a certain value - killing a certain amount of > text, for example. Or narrowing. Narrowing was not the thing that > came to my mind first. A setter for it might cause confusion because > the semantics are not clear, in contrast to `buffer-modified-p', I > think, where it is quite clear. Yeah, I think so to. "Setting" `point-max' could mean so many different things, but setting `buffer-modified-p' can only mean one thing, I think. (And note that `buffer-modified-p' has an (optional) buffer parameter), so if we go by "a setter should always mention the object it's setting", we're kinda covered.) > I mean, Emacs is an editor, so we have more aspects of state than > variable bindings. Setting variables can also have other side effects > than simply changing the variable's binding. Per se I don't see a > problem in considering more kinds of state (more than variables) as > places. OTOH, `point-max' for example is not really a self-contained > part of state, it's a value of a computation, a derived value. > > The classification result can be a bit subjective and depend on the > viewing point, of course. Indeed. I think `point' is perhaps the debatable tipping, er, point. `(decf (point))' is pretty hard to misunderstand (as a synonym for `(backward-char 1)'), but I think even that's too ... obscure. Probably. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 04:34:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Phil Sainty Cc: 52290@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.163876519617007 (code B ref 52290); Mon, 06 Dec 2021 04:34:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2021 04:33:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60225 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mu5gi-0004QF-4Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 23:33:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56324) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mu5gg-0004Q0-17 for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 23:33:14 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=37068 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mu5ga-00077G-P1; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 23:33:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=E6elBBjzknyKy51dhfGdxwV+/aAFHoNiwxbVVLc6Sw8=; b=j4vMMDkEbYQC +GKp6VqZtZERcc89X5JxXfpLD2QGQy45B1De9lwSVjYtV4Q1xU+R2FZreogwvJIZ6gghxid4hbrLh OO2d661mHwcIR6+uVlUH282awC+G5uOceEtO6opPBhx4z4MnB3QxbYRcZCeCbSFGVkLkfcmvyjmnL pz0AsQDtl9kpRN7rlE1HDAqfh4ggZTv328diY8OhHdk9j02DrMqWwJFBy8dPRpxpqvQ9V0YY5veZd CP1YuOWunMBmSfACMEeUbi2PVeNYPbcb7Y4aNU2zOZCyG7aTLdwADrbcFTlSgI+/wm5cIDPOy96YC hQg2qX8JN2mtiINupt7H/Q==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mu5ga-0007hM-Qy; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 23:33:08 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> (message from Phil Sainty on Sun, 05 Dec 2021 14:25:54 +1300) References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2021 23:33:08 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I think people have extended setf in questionable ways, allowing arithmetic and comparisons in the first argument. I think I understand what (setq (logand x 7) NNN) does, but I think it pushes the meaning of setf in a way that we should refrain from. You could equally well define (setq (+ x 5) NNN), but why support either of them? What about (setq (+ x y) NNN) -- should that set x, or y? Or both? It could do (setq x 0 y NNN), or (setq x NNN y 0), or various other things. I don't think that eq in the first argument is coherent at all. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 22:37:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Phil Sainty Cc: 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.166112139427385 (code B ref 52290); Sun, 21 Aug 2022 22:37:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Aug 2022 22:36:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37043 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oPtYX-00077Y-Qi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:36:34 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47042) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oPtYV-00077I-J5 for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:36:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=z5Zxu0tGzLZQ6fyvZV7+6PK+tFX7POe6ZsnSu63zOdQ=; b=e/HGz80WQdEL2wTPB1QUTSTAMm yCTSLBJDY7v1J5YS6k/EJAEB+1F+lFXo4j3va5pj7fdV7TxGi9oDg7DH04HNgJhImynFHOPfURShG D8lPBJaHzdeOyrEfz8fF/YNscHrkGwXUarsAjo7eqG0qP88eufJyR9WQKOCmLHdP82+E=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oPtYK-0006r4-E9; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 00:36:22 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87mtlfu5u4.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 05 Dec 2021 03:46:11 +0100") References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtlfu5u4.fsf@gnus.org> X-Now-Playing: Richard and Linda Thompson's _Hard Luck Stories (6): First Light_: "Restless Highways" Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 00:36:19 +0200 Message-ID: <87v8qlkyvw.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think we should implement the obsoletion mechanism and then just go > through that list and obsolete all the stuff that doesn't seem useful > (and isn't used in-tree). And then document the rest, [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think we should implement the obsoletion mechanism and then just go > through that list and obsolete all the stuff that doesn't seem useful > (and isn't used in-tree). And then document the rest, as well as make > the *Help* buffer mention that they're generalised variables. The obsoletion mechanism is now in place in Emacs 29, and I've obsoleted a whole bunch of nonsensical gv-setters. (Feel free to obsolete more of them, everybody.) I've now made *Help* mention whether a function is a generalised variable. I'm not sure there's need to document all the generalised variables in the manual, though. The *Help* buffer should be sufficient, and if they're not obvious (i.e., need documentation), then they should probably be obsoleted. But it might be nice to document, say, `if'. 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Content preview: tags 52290 + moreinfo quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 52290 + moreinfo quit From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 00:08:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: moreinfo To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.166121325210916 (code B ref 52290); 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Tue, 23 Aug 2022 02:07:02 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87v8qlkyvw.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2022 00:36:19 +0200") References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtlfu5u4.fsf@gnus.org> <87v8qlkyvw.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 02:07:00 +0200 Message-ID: <878rnfkel7.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:b1H8O3EIVfVXsuL8MCEmhrL2OYp55ViBEsDVRMUPbqm7bsGv8bR b75hbJlCqNcKWwJAXJs7fxfI5C9vJVWZCl7FB5uWbe1WSEdz6Pb6M5nWs+VDTFEm/fHFZbk UJ9IMkWSp1sfULAiPcA9BOIb5+PTL6IGkcU1w9uVRc7m3tYcfOKAWQuNWZIfTd2IFWGqvEN wqlgHyPDRbncEDKR9uk4w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:uP1procMGW4=:HRaN/Wa6mAkaDBR1SNQT8H Wo0m3BHyUY/0h86sM1936Q+2BNUXcCrkzEZsSocsAsL6IPktF4LDmsRAnYTRFhqnDb8JeKeBx M441COPpDqR0M0UHlnBFXEhSuaCW99zf70DFeHqrjD3b1a1Fk4V1vUjwZD56tl6WhnHHvAJYh +aQN7eSODsMEGTc1TNZ2Ew3Xq4VoM2b4zwWVE5xmURnIeoyZ0oheS2e8UoymUCyvIrwPfEiyc OmFZmCL4MquTSplR1somAmqjvYRor2qGqk8nJbi0TGfSvv7k4hJr8+UdZvms6FDiBYUalimn/ OA6jK8SnN/ezKzNJF67qyEx2m34LVdT7w6X0C2xTTdqxOiJilirlwm11FP+DGsQefF+vIyy+/ 6R2X8ZgFGdI1Mp/JGmz/Bv+Oj+TBpNzq8Zf/Mcii899qCdUwaH2TyrHkwIzTgt3hio60eM0ut nXT/Xd5zOG2EE0ORxemRo564ikw5YfdhdW+J/AxXfQzsNpMEKTXMxDFxkF6X2FbCCh0Bh0F4b LkqCbQDyec4m9QcXXd/xHbZaEKvzwM+hz6Bzkt63hKDcnyrR3pgrQa4+wWkAKsVnMpZAfgdMt NBR1OWxlDef/aluCaxTy59VwmvTxsbStakTzEFLlXri2z8t60c8x2H8MbCQjG8gK/BD54IBxZ rLs4TUqSJ9pkrrqrQaN0kegh8gC7Z/xrV4NyPvK2pobOjhmgzEidS68NxRAlPmuiKIs057tJc KjX5idDlEtstajoUgvcoAgULAbajmfzldNwZ+l7aJFP1FNzR9xBNIkpG/YP+qFpZwQucDUzDs Zpix2GxAkOnkgORmSoV6Up6SCzGK53RwtiNJpYAGrm0Xrc1bJ5esAfVJsEExAbyjm75hPRHuI kWZCAEZUI5EjAMgRR2UQdireJkEnaUO3PfFjiTN0C6hbmSB1NoWz+XDlS/i4JT1fcH6IH8EZO S2FU+cIu6LfmrrahMoT5XO+vOt+yrkkebuMNi2I1dBEK+ebcLV5j7yJtieNaYW7KI5OpDJkZA yTsN0+Vu2BBVWvEGVDyXGiGT3LOe1pjMOX2ggaFQXB7pYoxWO7dkARR2srmAgYXXrSFZjoeeC T5P4MAhfBKWSwK0OCgq19NX/vSr62/hkEy/otjZBxwqVN8ICmEX5OD0SQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I've now made *Help* mention whether a function is a generalised > variable. +(defun help-fns--generalized-variable (function) + (when (get function 'gv-expander) + (insert (format-message " `%s' is also a " function) + (buttonize "generalized variable" + (lambda (_) (info "(elisp)Generalized Variables"))) + ".\n"))) Can we try to find a better wording? Not the function is a generalized variable, a form that is a call of the function is. This is also a wording that the manual uses. Generalized variables are an abstract concept that not everybody is used to; I think we should be more accurate to avoid to confuse people. Michael. From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 10:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: moreinfo To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.16612512999718 (code B ref 52290); Tue, 23 Aug 2022 10:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Aug 2022 10:41:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42729 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oQRLn-0002Wg-4t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 06:41:39 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37184) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oQRLl-0002WS-Pt for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 06:41:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=D9fJnh/voZYbidLcRwqLIEJBrI/O9nKeF0spLe4fNns=; b=YxFA9csupo23ti0ms+sjEKPuW5 UqfKiAZkW4Wz2xDKNcrVE3t6F9CwyOBeE/f2lXc03SvlJWBO+2xVDB4UuKNtIaCFPXf7HoBPKExSt uzZybQNJyAzL1fYhohPdBWsspDHs68Det3v+p3gzAKwqfhxG7minRf4ziuMwo2SxK/Xg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQRLb-0007Wd-Lz; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 12:41:29 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <878rnfkel7.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Tue, 23 Aug 2022 02:07:00 +0200") References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtlfu5u4.fsf@gnus.org> <87v8qlkyvw.fsf@gnus.org> <878rnfkel7.fsf@web.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEXLuH7BqVJGOifN XUX////ApvMBAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+YIFwojMoqe1e8AAAGdSURBVDjLbZOLkcQg CIbxtgHRBiI0sEr/vR0/PpK9PWcyIXy8MUSfJx+JKfmz5HNyotKERTIlkVYEpwUiF/DFAUIlGzAM +7SW6nauaExFeMgJI3gxHgdD/gA8jZq0sUMNhCpI2sRz9Kgk4qmDPl0pqnUwC3XAPAG8V8INwnmD aEZ7AF0eceJDa4D2DYryqkNo1T+LLWbOoFLyrDrcdoKoA4V0UmYz69VwoqXEVZSxA6jmq8cqMrtZ JPdYNg+IL2wDmUlEbRWqQw+IGgH057r72EBjAYT3aXCzfnEygDLCECAy9KwvMzHiqTlALm/fhlFd mrEnc73UiZKhhw00gFfnwJd9AxcwG8QI0BcICxR3DSGXAxRB6BXOJoiF//iG6vZA5yj1E5gMzCpG 6oGKXCmmPzdjD9Bec+x8g7isErbYxwE2b3GqxqPgT1GMJPaGP444MRceI98elgNk3zf39AjlLrgD id9U/bd9PUFCOfULGM1r5Mo39P0GKTpb1k8wW176B+gB+vk6wOV6bvAH2BGW0P0y/KOHC/ENbpue 7BdGeJat82m2jwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0wOC0yM1QxMDozNTo1MCswMDowMHy9 1JUAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjItMDgtMjNUMTA6MzU6NTArMDA6MDAN4GwpAAAAAElF TkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Eats Tapes's _Still Works_: "Ricochet" Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 12:41:27 +0200 Message-ID: <87tu63s0mg.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen writes: > Can we try to find a better wording? Not the function is a generalized > variable, a form that is a call of the function is. This is also a > wording that the manual uses. Generalized variables are [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: > Can we try to find a better wording? Not the function is a generalized > variable, a form that is a call of the function is. This is also a > wording that the manual uses. Generalized variables are an abstract > concept that not everybody is used to; I think we should be more > accurate to avoid to confuse people. Yes, please do tweak the wording. I couldn't find any concise way of saying something here accurately, so I went for vague instead (note that I don't mention "function" anywhere in the text), and just punt to the manual. From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 02:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: moreinfo To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.166191185029558 (code B ref 52290); Wed, 31 Aug 2022 02:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2022 02:10:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37819 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oTDBp-0007gg-Qm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2022 22:10:50 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:43957) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oTDBm-0007gQ-Hb for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2022 22:10:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1661911823; bh=JLlPRw9ZdKbGsMQyK+MTVE3xrCSwlw7TVyVYj7glac4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=MTULnXLGp5ojGxkhhxvbUbwBQXsHhk9inqRkTJQg5H6NCgwbOW1mXWsZpDHtARh21 VTHZ2m1hib2wxfhe4MxlY3xQhr7sriQFLLSgu2HIRIaH0TnCD+rCysxL7J/22y7KG/ fFk6dqLiWilwkyQeWbqczD+23S0ToXa013ObdIck= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.57.248.18]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Ml4B4-1p7orj1MI0-00lPNx; Wed, 31 Aug 2022 04:10:23 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87tu63s0mg.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Tue, 23 Aug 2022 12:41:27 +0200") References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtlfu5u4.fsf@gnus.org> <87v8qlkyvw.fsf@gnus.org> <878rnfkel7.fsf@web.de> <87tu63s0mg.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 04:10:21 +0200 Message-ID: <87o7w1macy.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wBdRAfsC8FBFj/HKooG67f+mNpLpoRzH0gjdOSIrY32bophDE7x cXdO14/5n+YuQ0jZUIJHFCw3EiXuI7cKmTBtTY3vN/Uj2CMWmfKmtvQ1hD6wGDEodRHthK4 zXb4OfUccZxfffrZOvae8SRu9yC2aDstKk6BOQmpdtc/ck9tJ1udHM0JXm9OKITgqyhd2FN jmQJ6jK/rbRsoPv9dpHwQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:0yayF7iVVHw=:+llN5fVEuMwBZ43Ke1QAIw 9Vgy1sY0ecsJlGYLBDUKwQt3/J7nH3s2epKcFcc00C32UlfuEFTrzePqgTqPGsws9VpL+3YBw tybC57L1rS+J/AR9tNuoxEa2tpAdyHf1Ts5i4jF1K/EzTNPWVRMTLAf7EQeAbSauAsb0JEPd7 RHY7vz2/5bat1BoipSi+29T3dZ78WgYx0WRIpg/ubh/MYubcS6JmnlDS3ECaGSRntzYmpczZq Bc2CefVAs6MPTarp4491Q3uboNk7g05XGnM2qadVObvE+RkDxOqtEn72mIZbOKkQcc1fol6tr 2+SurUxXfH8pby/I3sbrEgWCDu0i2SnvXt74FP9cT70yL3rYjdufk2nqOogVnY8MT0wpwTWpD y6XGxM4SD1JllwzSnvF77NkhqUi79cwT8rwJ7Kci09OptYqKYQpQcKVK3/Pnft5EBUw9q2+p6 QQVbvXVzBerKvJLdZh98RxqjbqEToAFsnNeqGMf/rQGzln1yKx/dmmEhHNKtz0+DHH6XqVNtZ FZ8fh4JRLdyvKqgX9O9qULJuBgndJMHieN5kz1tfYtr2FtuvTbcYqlxP0qIM7Z9kYzhkH2RiY Q0zwxeFeMB8bTH6lwyAn6HocUdSujis8Yn0ij5TpXDrIqkrcA7EEqN7PZQOsLaJAXW6QVEZE2 jp1BgKHmAH2Mcil7Q73AbPLA3Om7ZRcXNLIfs1RnPeheB7VaGe3oiQHrrPhZTE0IhoRVQXOMO Lj7QWzeOr/XzvVKWo74M7AZA7tspW+NO7urKwIV4ETkUae2dEIZ+1zyV9UdwwhlgpyT4JiT8s MkNprZeiairb4UA+f/HbBe1z4LWc/+FE/LfhITffdEIOIvNBhP7WgJMJUORqIllqWK55urwHs CzfLV4+7hMQHNiiZrVJ+cs/0qQeUvF6fT2GqW3y3taO/Qj7RkujaumiWbWrv7eH5ppUKRa4Pr 2CRTOBQCaBh5yTpdls+xOBSrUHWAyQmgopuD6UAVkl4j2b6kebmP0Lx7Jxa0Tb0uv6eR83fsE YqQXt8UoDCCIE6Br57pIOshtHKvbJTO36KHVMhjjP/szaU2jzI2kuavBRRgLVo3N8toeLU/yw R1xllqWhuPH3ZuLYcWRF5Jncut+4NTx+PziIAQuSqgti52bfneItG0yrihZVf55HRGReyCQkT NIW9D8x+4EetONxIuW/PlfWjIp X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > > Can we try to find a better wording? Not the function is a generalized > > variable, a form that is a call of the function is. [...] > Yes, please do tweak the wording. I couldn't find any concise way of > saying something here accurately, so I went for vague instead (note that > I don't mention "function" anywhere in the text), and just punt to the > manual. Ok - not that easy! Alternatives I see are "... `setf'able'" or "... can be used in generalized variables" or "...in place expressions" or "can be used in gv forms - see [Generalized Variables]." Does something like that sound better than what we have? BTW, another problem is that `alist-get' tells how it works as place (because it's not totally trivial in this case), and at the end "... is also a generalized variable" is added - kind of misplaced because the reader already knows at this point. Personally I would prefer that hint near the beginning (without "also") - in all cases I think. WDYT? TIA, Michael. From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 09:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: moreinfo To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Phil Sainty , 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.16619399413334 (code B ref 52290); Wed, 31 Aug 2022 09:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2022 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38235 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oTKUv-0000rd-5M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2022 05:59:01 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:40196) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oTKUm-0000rI-9A for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2022 05:58:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=q20sNvxe6UrP9yYaNU8p/NHnTcEVIILBLwXV8C+RVKE=; b=K+IhgbDWQKYle6e4fzJiDuv8// LL5YptJIkXx5VAor+4F/12NIQNnzRrLmQvm2tyf3s2ItjJ3RmQVdYIf+7A3RHkNNkNujX+KTX/Oxh a4gzU6bIBea1jf4Ppz5DgboOw+lWk+JhelK36ARscG70OYfMTnoVfdYsV2GFlHJWns3c=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oTKUc-0008PJ-31; Wed, 31 Aug 2022 11:58:44 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87o7w1macy.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2022 04:10:21 +0200") References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtlfu5u4.fsf@gnus.org> <87v8qlkyvw.fsf@gnus.org> <878rnfkel7.fsf@web.de> <87tu63s0mg.fsf@gnus.org> <87o7w1macy.fsf@web.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEXR0MuAf31OTU3/ //8fmzB2AAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+YIHwkyOYlnucEAAAFVSURBVCjPTdKxTsMwEAbg /6I4opmCRJHSHUTzFI7UdmDy0A7NxACoyVOABBJjQChSmTokqL6nxGfTKh5sf7J9PucCIGdpWwPX 1LPMbdMKGv4Rdd9uTtz5bYMgsZB5Pz86pEcS6HTrMDtEsoBkL3gtuCoNonfB/Ywz0qCVgLUFuahf HswboNp8SjR3O+uIl4LE3cdtxGbwGUhk4t6G3Kqhp21W+6z3arN2460AH77HzRiFlv5ijEnAfIw7 jFd8n46RAOv4DI06B+oTCvfRbECLqQt7PEFaH+AHCkgtcW0uw7ZZRU8GV/9IJat1uGebaGVol3tM qVet2k10gCUXUnnExEtzfSCPRc7d4KrokdXc7bnUmYetpFovfoW44sHiIeTGK4vHM0ouWxx0QMu/ Gv4hk4j7hkFvEq1I5G9BtCApSRlKH2clqCnrxr1SKRhQRU3tDsfKZH96SXyAqR/HgQAAACV0RVh0 ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0wOC0zMVQwOTo1MDo1NyswMDowMK0a7qIAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9k aWZ5ADIwMjItMDgtMzFUMDk6NTA6NTcrMDA6MDDcR1YeAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Rival Consoles's _Kid Velo_: "Into The Heart I" Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 11:58:41 +0200 Message-ID: <87o7w091ke.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen writes: > Ok - not that easy! Alternatives I see are "... `setf'able'" or > "... can be used in generalized variables" or "...in place expressions" > or "can be used in gv forms - see [Generalized Variables]. [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: > Ok - not that easy! Alternatives I see are "... `setf'able'" or > "... can be used in generalized variables" or "...in place expressions" > or "can be used in gv forms - see [Generalized Variables]." "`setf'-able" is perhaps an improvement -- I think more people know what that means than "generalized variable". > BTW, another problem is that `alist-get' tells how it works as place > (because it's not totally trivial in this case), and at the end "... is > also a generalized variable" is added - kind of misplaced because the > reader already knows at this point. Personally I would prefer that hint > near the beginning (without "also") - in all cases I think. The user has asked for the documentation for the function, so "also" is appropriate. And the info (that's it's setf-able) is unlikely to be what most people are interested in, so keeping it at the bottom is fine. From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#52290: 28.0.90; Undocumented generalized variables Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2022 11:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52290 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: moreinfo To: Phil Sainty Cc: 52290@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 52290-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52290.166488469314918 (code B ref 52290); Tue, 04 Oct 2022 11:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 52290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Oct 2022 11:58:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52767 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ofgYu-0003sY-Pu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 07:58:13 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:45306) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ofgYs-0003sH-Mb for 52290@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 07:58:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WAK6sQcbi5WPgqBylwh1HATWX2Jr8AS2VgswJ9hXgww=; b=rhxySD2C/ZNlvEwDC/H0KU3JZl /s2khLBHQjz3eOsMVYTZc81dVzu3MFLCPGZmrmG6Ba/8E4JWZaK0i6kCsBl6Ab/Q0bldt11u1j1nC kXz3Pp5WCSSH3k1qrW1/uFRMpOMYHQ5GAxwYZkcNYB6HB3DDhapPYQrneDtygLK9vJbs=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=downe) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ofgYi-0003W8-U8; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 13:58:03 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87v8qlkyvw.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2022 00:36:19 +0200") References: <5d87e4ab47875790076e932351fe8f25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87ilw3vnp7.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtlfu5u4.fsf@gnus.org> <87v8qlkyvw.fsf@gnus.org> X-Now-Playing: Phranc's _Folksinger_: "Noguchi" Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2022 13:58:00 +0200 Message-ID: <87sfk394xj.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I've now made *Help* mention whether a function is a generalised > variable. > > I'm not sure there's need to document all the generalised variables in > the manual, though. The *Help* buffer should [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I've now made *Help* mention whether a function is a generalised > variable. > > I'm not sure there's need to document all the generalised variables in > the manual, though. The *Help* buffer should be sufficient, and if > they're not obvious (i.e., need documentation), then they should > probably be obsoleted. > > But it might be nice to document, say, `if'. I've now mentioned if and cond in the manual here. 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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 52290 29.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 52290 29.1 quit