From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 23 09:10:59 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2021 14:10:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50320 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mpWVe-0001su-IE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:10:58 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:34984) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mpWVa-0001sk-Ds for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:10:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54194) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mpWVa-0008VD-9G for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:10:54 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=47158 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mpWVa-00080z-0q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:10:54 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:Subject:To:From:Date:in-reply-to: references; bh=GU9oWiTABW/+me6elvw0sN3vl/hUCxLJhrGHJ65HGwI=; b=PlOg6gCLJx0Y/+ eYwSoLhwLMaA7B89ygNBGkeZ9CrcDARUafTX+uvVlC/L1r2cJvHDKu6YV0J3HnP4kOPkU7rbIwlEL To5c0RVjd+oUbgmFkQrTGknh5yAob7NDjWwIs/1bA4vVRH850dBXTcG+vNL6ldm10Rp6wijX5ZbFE 3J0AtpzZY/HlZYpkFk1jncfqHCk1KqAAgMoZuG0WpWabWyNcrD4KlqPJ2OdyIMDnvB4NOuImGSGJJ Lv8eHZDw9ddBSUfP/+InG/bThegcJyeRnRAWaANFU085V6bm43guZGQogrpH2im7T4eiPQNLABvd7 ga65+On2r7bpIHPcRBTw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2956 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mpWVZ-00088p-Np for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2021 09:10:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:11:05 +0200 Message-Id: <831r37otc6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 29.0.50; Confused by usage and documentation of "C-x 8 e e" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) I did: emacs -Q C-x 8 e e This pops up a window with a list of Emoji categories and the respective Emoji. It looks like a normal popup window Emacs shows, for example *Help* or a list of completion candidates, so I just typed arrow to dismiss it as I'm used to. (Or maybe I expected the arrow keys to allow selection of categories?) This displays the following message in the echo-area: Unbound suffix: ‘’ (Use ‘C-g’ to abort, ‘?’ for help) [previous-line] Tried some other keys with a similar effect. (What is "suffix", and "unbound" on top of that?) So finally, I press '?', hoping it will show me the light. This gets me the following: Type a to show help for that suffix command, or ? to show manual. Type C-g to exit help. Tried to type some . For example, 'a'. This produces: emoji--command-Emoji\ >\ Animals\ &\ Nature is an interactive compiled Lisp function. (emoji--command-Emoji\ >\ Animals\ &\ Nature) Not documented. This function is for interactive use only. Hmm... not very helpful, as I still don't understand how to do something useful here. "Not documented"? hmm... But I'm not yet frustrated enough for C-g, so I type a second '?', hoping to see the manual, and is presented with the following: emoji--command-Emoji is an interactive compiled Lisp function. (emoji--command-Emoji) Not documented. This function is for interactive use only. Where's my promised "manual"? So, bottom line, I think it would be mighty good to make this interface more user-friendly, so that it at least describes what s one can type to produce something useful. And if it promises a "manual", please make it show something to that effect... In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 210, i686-pc-mingw32) of 2021-11-23 built on HOME-C4E4A596F7 Repository revision: 8b62b20159f8ec3f5c7ea5227f814681741d61b1 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 System Description: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 3 (v5.1.0.2600) Configured using: 'configure -C --prefix=/d/usr --with-wide-int --enable-checking=yes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=-O0 -gdwarf-4 -g3'' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS WEBP XPM ZLIB Important settings: value of $LANG: ENU locale-coding-system: cp1255 Major mode: Lisp Interaction Minor modes in effect: tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t eldoc-mode: t show-paren-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t indent-tabs-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message mailcap yank-media rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs auth-source password-cache json map time-date mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils eieio-opt speedbar ezimage dframe find-func shortdoc text-property-search help-fns radix-tree emoji-labels emoji transient cl-seq format-spec edmacro kmacro eieio eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs cl-extra seq gv subr-x byte-opt bytecomp byte-compile cconv help-mode cl-loaddefs cl-lib iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel dos-w32 ls-lisp disp-table term/w32-win w32-win w32-vars term/common-win tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget keymap hashtable-print-readable backquote threads w32notify w32 lcms2 multi-tty make-network-process emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 128507 10597) (symbols 48 12084 1) (strings 16 51322 3299) (string-bytes 1 1264079) (vectors 16 24397) (vector-slots 8 320035 12877) (floats 8 74 75) (intervals 40 8376 93) (buffers 888 11)) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 02:46:59 2021 Received: (at 52058) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 07:46:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52948 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mpmza-0002ci-LY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 02:46:58 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54306) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mpmzZ-0002XJ-DY for 52058@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 02:46:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WTYkGEoEk3oAyligEs4NSbZIqeTL7LUwz3kZo7nzZv8=; b=irgnIFAJ8CZ3xYiEEMfykPw/ZG SYu6Hz3Wk7fLmh5KNN3bSAsvZLF3jgX+fKTBuYNXCmhij9T2SkjFTsH1AHUhL/UOMKAjSqmnoYa0i gANF58hF0IUnIfK4ZfQC7A6FcUMSz7Cev9IipQQT+tMDfC8/MkchP4btDHqloM+aGpUQ=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mpmzP-0007iP-Vf; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:46:50 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#52058: 29.0.50; Confused by usage and documentation of "C-x 8 e e" References: <831r37otc6.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: Irreversible Entanglements's _Open The Gates_: "Storm Came Twice" Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:46:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: <831r37otc6.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:11:05 +0200") Message-ID: <87pmqquhaw.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > It looks like a normal popup window Emacs shows, > for example *Help* or a list of completion candidates, so I just typed > arrow to dismiss it as I'm used to. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52058 Cc: Jonas Bernoulli , 52058@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > It looks like a normal popup window Emacs shows, > for example *Help* or a list of completion candidates, so I just typed > arrow to dismiss it as I'm used to. Yes, it's transient.el -- it's a different interface. > Hmm... not very helpful, as I still don't understand how to do > something useful here. "Not documented"? hmm... Should probably have some doc strings, yes... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Nov 28 10:11:32 2021 Received: (at 52058) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2021 15:11:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36157 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLpz-0007uS-Qb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:11:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59726) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLpx-0007uC-EF for 52058@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:11:30 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=35656 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLpr-0005e9-Ol; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:11:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=jT8/q05a17pXGgWZUupEc/wQ6tVT18o/5wid25tHX1k=; b=mAlAmdEDgbdXzu024Zq8 MSciMjvlE5W8GsY2NQ0juCyEsnMGKNz05fn40UImTZbHSZZ/ka4edvh0xklV5BnHKo8Q97Tmus3Sa z5t150P4AO0HcwRfQn+xVk+6Dca91dD6Difs9pml1wZdUi5268fmjSEdjhwTeUyPoE8QJOs7lYq+G QMEUr3Oh99bMA+fqB56VdZui57+DWfq0VKcpPG11c8Bjj/QLedvNau3PYTDlBCFOLhR3LUpTn4JEr LDfOTuppBEwfW+KWXY0PAcdP33cSPHlbavFfHfmnpKtUlB9/T/6M2V1CEZZU8gyFc64MLTvsRfqHC Px9o448mJOQABQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1560 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrLpr-0001p2-GI; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 10:11:23 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:11:32 +0200 Message-Id: <83lf18wc0r.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Jonas Bernoulli In-Reply-To: <831r37otc6.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:11:05 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#52058: 29.0.50; Confused by usage and documentation of "C-x 8 e e" References: <831r37otc6.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52058 Cc: 52058@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Forwarding to the bug tracker an exchange that was mistakenly held off-list: > From: Jonas Bernoulli > Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 22:18:11 +0100 > > > But I'm not yet frustrated enough for C-g, so I type a second '?', > > hoping to see the manual, and is presented with the following: > > > > emoji--command-Emoji is an interactive compiled Lisp function. > > > > (emoji--command-Emoji) > > > > Not documented. > > > > This function is for interactive use only. > > > > Where's my promised "manual"? > > If you press "? ?" in the magit-diff transient, then that shows you the > man-page for git-diff. Similarly if you typed "? - s", then that shows > you do the same man-page but also jumps to the line where the > documentation for the "--stat" argument begins. This works because the > definition of the magit-diff transient sets :man-page "git-diff". I expected it to show me something about using this feature, not about an external command or somesuch. That's because my main confusion was about how to use "C-x 8 e e" for inserting Emoji, and because "?" in Emacs usually shows some helpful usage information. For example, type "M-$" and then "?" -- this is what I expected to be presented with. > Transient definitions can alternatively set :info-manual. If there is > an info node for the emoji feature, then this issue could be addressed > by setting :info-manual "(emacs)Emoji" in all the generated transient > prefixes and sub-prefixes. The generated "insert this particular emoji" > suffixes should probably have a generated doc-string along the lines of > "Insert 🤗.\nFor more information see info node (emacs)Emoji and info > node (transient)". Sending the user to the manual is only useful after showing some minimal usage information that allows to proceed without reading the manual. "Insert 🤗." might qualify as "good enough", but in the case of "C-x 8 e e", the display you are presented with hints that a single key will not be enough to insert a specific Emoji, so a short text explaining how to select one emoticon from the shown list would be better. This is what I expected to see, and that is why I was disappointed by what I actually saw. > Similarly the usage information that one gets after pressing just "?": > > Type a to show help for that suffix command, or ? to show manual. > Type C-g to exit help. That text is actually completely impenetrable. What is ? if it's any key, then, as I reported, the response to typing at least some keys confuses even more. If it's only one of a specific set of keys, something should tell the users which KEYs will result in useful responses. And what is "suffix command"? that is not a usual Emacs terminology, so it just muddies the waters. > could be extended with an additional line: > > Type to show information about such transient interfaces. Mentioning "transient" here would be a didactic mistake, IMO: the user doesn't necessarily know what that is about, and the usual meaning of that word will definitely confuse even more.