From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 28 15:09:08 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2021 19:09:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53220 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgAlw-0001Ps-88 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:09:08 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:52692) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgAlr-0001Pg-H1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:09:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37680) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgAlp-0004q1-KB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:09:03 -0400 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:22732) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgAln-00015p-7U for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:09:01 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246630.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 19SIoSwB030823 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:56 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2021-07-09; bh=H6lRmrq9H27YZLUHSu1PTKiKyK5NwBHgcZxk3VPOXt0=; b=YS7KTsoZOJWdlY272L+V4BHtfdvihfWpj6smDXkatBbgHbeoQJg1lCSWM3vBZR5wwWkx 0pwpmiTrCSImn3rO5chqeQbsWUA4AaP3fVAoxMqmI4AzUkKzTHmC8iKJcGTAb/xjiv7E 9BOVGKorn+iyrBqAmx+1ZHmHWTnAf6bBv+SaNzsj4exLv3Ri4mx3CiWgoni/zd4IbrRG SFq6jIeWxmhgzncwfS4sVjoH/DtdkTGwPCZSdsXhDGqBswz485w7YgT8sdrxUm/u57Dk dK1aMplcm0D6e/FZI3zBovsLqAapQlCnuNaaR0H7SCloP5dyLSemuKTqbj4L2WkK75oV 1A== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3byhy9m81k-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:56 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 19SJ7Lm4038328 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:55 GMT Received: from nam12-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam12lp2172.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.55.172]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3bx4gc0apm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:55 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=LM8RZkRkLwmWInE/TWzQy1Z2huzWdK22LMtnNo/r4swWpDXtrKQJNG0/+KuoW3yszyOW4t4Ynj60gvIs1NHz4+7GPqKmJ0PVF9NNkMkWDTceTybIS5sqMNhQR2iIua1xhBfwe95QjjhfyeUD5fZBnmAL0475ZWtcnEN1G6SCZ1kGAdhatBFB0mnJp7wF/wgqwlf0rejRY82KGPah/5hRtKwEWQCRhhwyTMW21DkDFIl423aD9z+k3g5Q/gQXqd5yjOZ14Eq/ZXmApEfb6a4/ZvTm4cHEIByAXJCjfxR/KQaCrvI0rwtMW7B/+Oj0FWdS5e01dlJKBhKF++C3n6iEWA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=H6lRmrq9H27YZLUHSu1PTKiKyK5NwBHgcZxk3VPOXt0=; b=G2xYXR40Iiyjd7fNmCl+b4aZTjlvwlC+NmEUinjgk1HTsvl37iSP3FVXi3G3WiCw7p3eWy4PZAZOOKCAdhUWDccZcD+K9SxcX7dtQqNhFh0EM+Xgbj3HwoQJYVoNDBa9+CZvLVbqlaVtyTmeG+0QBoLfy5liKinjt07DtBhpzIuGLPqjzGqIKDtCHLXXah4ak7M55EoLsdsb3ZJAMEdkORgTJZkexI0JrEN8xk0yDodSgfqDpKXfAsvyXWchV4xKLg+hmfnimqzHLnPYZCPzclQXPldPhGZGmoX2TdW1O8cecnlhf/Z1FDsyUSgIGqCR2GtF0Sg6iF1KPWOYGSKJRQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=H6lRmrq9H27YZLUHSu1PTKiKyK5NwBHgcZxk3VPOXt0=; b=u8FvnbEmn1KiZy+Yb1TUrSsftaqh67c5rPdPEqbhT8lnxfrAkIlhITLArsQCyVafEM+5eqDPmcXvCUsvMEqRYAoZT3iZhP/LECjw4lQFa/LVo7pMv9FkDFmhQnX/UzTxwVPGxAVgPHXNOjQmacwzE230dqEzwuEFLCFB8uLoKEk= Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by BYAPR10MB4087.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:120::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:53 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4628.020; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:53 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Subject: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) Thread-Topic: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) Thread-Index: AdfMLrkaWtoQY1WgT8uuwqzGa4sQDg== Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:53 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 32aa2e48-20bd-40c3-a1d4-08d99a46620d x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR10MB4087: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(38070700005)(26005)(7696005)(9686003)(6916009)(66946007)(6506007)(71200400001)(316002)(44832011)(5660300002)(8676002)(64756008)(45080400002)(38100700002)(76116006)(186003)(122000001)(66446008)(508600001)(8936002)(2906002)(52536014)(33656002)(55016002)(86362001)(66476007)(66556008)(81973001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?us-ascii?Q?Ms2x05rmSPBbpO/LuForVyXkR2408iOITfsVw/h6WaZKs+KPlz7GSBJ83M9v?= =?us-ascii?Q?ZYP6ckxqtT/r/OcWCK/r93OqrB2Zyhw0P0a40D9phhw++VxtS5BapK4aiCVL?= =?us-ascii?Q?/RiIMg5/5KYeYM6GueKez5Vv+LWnFxqBgMwUT96rDuihL3N5S2vJZ3PvM9ar?= =?us-ascii?Q?fICtx/8gM2cSneA/VrOxYTgIEqftgy8/vUgf3Ud4R3jD2yP8tLchZJiYJ0Rc?= =?us-ascii?Q?6jhIn5YrD1tDM7BHg58bh9uYcTB2UObn3MlPYxGyq+zai6zZQV3XX8rLh5AE?= =?us-ascii?Q?UCr+fvJtVbmWWkZD/bCVc00KRNCFdD9si/2oAWKRWZh7C0sBxmtG67kTNAW8?= =?us-ascii?Q?VhNNOsR6wd1QMHTpiycnNJ9mpakQzgO1nnaq8tN+DkT9nnzEoU9xDOQhXgiI?= =?us-ascii?Q?Rz0Y/ORpUpIWPapips3Q4WD5L53nZ0L1dXP1yl3XaS5cZqRmPEHDJ4yo1dD8?= =?us-ascii?Q?zqd6UVaJjOFAvoxZTFe9Ue7ZMAz1CZIwOvDptxe7W2pXwRzbZXcr69bQW8SP?= =?us-ascii?Q?V5tGkvolMNNaktL2diT2a+GQP4EkfxpQS194kVWs6SXbfmTkTJqElutkY6Iw?= =?us-ascii?Q?Zvi0rRHNdXIYeexa9le0Obp5TAzNfTBJQU6GKuKRHwnJINTQ96wH4rxzZw2O?= =?us-ascii?Q?56npdhvwMNNZuruPc7nLpn4MDay57ZRHHVDNHv+u0ojFBZytkCxkIQn77G86?= =?us-ascii?Q?Jowqa8WpmyX4C9BH/s44pzf5Jkrq0YDCU3JBHKOuhhIa8U0OL0N65E/JHiTS?= =?us-ascii?Q?/sabCvroUAaMkCy3iWHZtbXfwG1gDnfnEy3B6YakIcEHrQ0hhXdbu1/QVJt3?= =?us-ascii?Q?s6Af3yBjNbNodVgBmGfyF3A8orl0QJkKDH4t2wa3j4naB4rm88KhxjspIpJV?= =?us-ascii?Q?I2jthOoCffoMlOf1cGYmmJ5jSCg1yFOSxnVWDxgM1LxHQhdd7Mxnh1m+HMmW?= =?us-ascii?Q?dWbbxQ2vgcAZwUtgIczFD4rLmDLJsRaEwIUhxNFxJVWjkF1s8G5Et1/vfX/S?= =?us-ascii?Q?FxE619JaQzld0S/2LTI4Iu8xu8jNAOzuZYqxcPFnRPOZggu0q2+L7AsefghU?= =?us-ascii?Q?0MqCkKXlOWaY/mXOUpqlnOfs3kfrni0/t1gb4ncdMQVojYg034K8m889VhEg?= =?us-ascii?Q?zeSPXCQRWoRwmT6K+AuogALDcaJKGOdkttpOFGRj5pKHRf01pKWh64/mgHsJ?= =?us-ascii?Q?ANfy8XPW0mn/nbMzw7eryktiVo91j0dr6tFulYuB33rXarLrcauLtFcZKwX2?= =?us-ascii?Q?XldEswn2rJw4cVPy/ZCFcio0Uc6bBLZGo4aKam90Fu5Y20GQ2FV6ZD/JcGWZ?= =?us-ascii?Q?hQrnkfvr345ygSdNgSsFcIe8h+VE1+8ZJ5pw3BtvYfkpVvx2I4leJtG5P0mh?= =?us-ascii?Q?LA66J8b2QgKxwBjYxOU4A9H0WL4eORVuOeV715ojT0Zo8qm2Q/3PzQxNfYYV?= =?us-ascii?Q?o1HX0qsw9Qoc948Th2YNtDQ6Rf8lDf4+EYeN3GAAznoOPb0Ri1mUysxWYmgd?= =?us-ascii?Q?MhilDFw6F13XivFmqZwebrZriIGnJYODc2fvPZSh1aL9li2hhlwMxcfQCdO8?= =?us-ascii?Q?edUgVw1faYMBUlDa7g1iM3JmFBgdFespcjBlgFNFme1UNDLIVRWpcOekGs8J?= =?us-ascii?Q?bg=3D=3D?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 32aa2e48-20bd-40c3-a1d4-08d99a46620d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Oct 2021 19:08:53.1770 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: i7sVjdQYv0keQfpDEEca0ks06KY6vlIi6HNJRbYpcx8jd638XHV/VzfGWvg3qHkNGJa+2PaRUjUasiKl2jwg8A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR10MB4087 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10151 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2110280100 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: ekx3pnsibO7Livm2IZye10q8FMGK3lmH X-Proofpoint-GUID: ekx3pnsibO7Livm2IZye10q8FMGK3lmH Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.220.177.32; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) emacs -Q Set eval-expression-print-length to nil for the session. (face-all-attributes 'region) ; C-x C-e Shows all attributes, including :background, with value `unspecified'. (face-all-attributes 'region (selected-frame)) ; C-x C-e Shows attribute :background with value "LightGoldenrod". The doc string of `face-all-attributes' says that a nil second arg means use "the default attributes". What does that mean - what are the default attributes? I was expecting that it meant the default settings for the face: default set of attributes with their default values for that face. (elisp) `Attribute Functions' says "the default attributes of FACE for newly created frames". I would expect to see :background as "LightGoldenrod", not as `unspecified'. If arg FRAME is specified (as a frame) then the function returns the attributes of FACE on FRAME. Not sure what that means either - faces have different attributes on different frames? If I do `M-x customize-face region' from emacs -Q I see :background set as "LightGoldenrod". That command customizes the face for all frames, no? So doesn't that mean that the face has that background for all frames (by default)? Why would one want to get a list of the face's attributes with every attribute value as `unspecified'? More importantly, how to get the actual (default) values "for all frames" - what you see when you use `customize-face'? I feel I must be missing something obvious, here. But the Elisp manual didn't make things any clearer. ___ You can let me know if the rest of this report should be posted as a separate bug report. But perhaps you could just let me know what I'm missing in this regard too, if that's simple to do. My question is why do we have the &rest argument ARGUMENTS of `set-face-attribute' be a plist, but what `face-all-attributes' returns is an alist? Just to do something like the following isn't possible: (apply #'set-face-attribute 'some-face nil (face-all-attributes 'other-face)) To accomplish that you need to convert the alist returned by `face-all-attributes' to a plist, and pass that to `set-face-attribute'. Why? What other uses of these two functions would suggest that they should use different ways to express the list of face attributes? In GNU Emacs 27.2 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2021-03-26 built on CIRROCUMULUS Repository revision: deef5efafb70f4b171265b896505b92b6eef24e6 Repository branch: HEAD Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19042 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.19042.1288) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 28 15:33:58 2021 Received: (at 51465) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2021 19:33:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53265 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgB9y-00022b-IP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:33:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46290) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgB9w-00022M-91 for 51465@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:33:57 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33130) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgB9q-0008Sy-Cb; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:33:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=hgHYVZuHYCt4A9pnyGQmdZkFanlowGc5Yyptd+HO81s=; b=PqkL5OBxyo92 guT4G6gb+ZbHwVaHMyawfG+HAYGpKKZCwusC+ccuzSmUXrmlDN1pa9qzLd3YoMAkuZU7MntQVFbV0 uZLcyYWh1JXL4Ypmnm3OHERU7XuNvbK7C6yCuaMOlHAGSnsgoTXby822u2trvbZNh0hPolmAw2y5/ LpTTuAOr0cHpvHGRCNsFRtBUCZt4wrnwTKJVR7AJpZXvywlILWsfNLw9mD0/fg9aSXjHMhFZU3LsR v+dNGE32lJZ1Df9pAn0BacD1PKGD9vwWDjkLlXq9u9XH6Ifv/d54jSO7fJBZAYGM37LamcEow+uXE zjeDz9r62juTzb4vDql9Sg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4626 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgB9p-0005jY-TX; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 15:33:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:33:45 +0300 Message-Id: <83h7d1rlk6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:53 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#51465: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 51465 Cc: 51465@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:53 +0000 > > What does that mean - what are the default attributes? I was expecting > that it meant the default settings for the face: default set of > attributes with their default values for that face. "Default attributes" and "default settings for the face" are one and the same. > (elisp) `Attribute Functions' says "the default attributes of FACE for > newly created frames". I would expect to see :background as > "LightGoldenrod", not as `unspecified'. Why? because that's what you actually see in a new frame? Those aren't the default attributes, those are the attributes specified by defface. > If arg FRAME is specified (as a frame) then the function returns the > attributes of FACE on FRAME. Not sure what that means either - faces > have different attributes on different frames? Of course. Faces are, and always were, specific to frames. You can change face attributes on one frame without affecting any other frames. > If I do `M-x customize-face region' from emacs -Q I see :background set > as "LightGoldenrod". Because that shows the face on the current frame. > That command customizes the face for all frames, > no? Yes. > So doesn't that mean that the face has that background for all > frames (by default)? No. > Why would one want to get a list of the face's attributes with every > attribute value as `unspecified'? I don't know. I guess those defaults are not very interesting, indeed. > More importantly, how to get the actual (default) values "for all > frames" There's no such thing. You must supply a frame to answer that question. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 28 19:08:50 2021 Received: (at 51465) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2021 23:08:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53494 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgEVt-0005OB-Tj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:50 -0400 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:55216) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgEVq-0005O3-MS for 51465@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:08:47 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246632.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 19SM3Oma021610; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:46 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2021-07-09; bh=kIKaM8TVWiE4NJE59hDJIsVLI4lC6ZA/yI4xFLHeKuw=; b=jA8cNtVHoRYgFw6PGSa/CVkN7eRvivaAmyj1ETMFBvU+kiSK88H1tdh7nOL5a5i2L5Sx m0U/pC+hWyCR0iSAHlh2kdyOtyg66Gl0KrwLrbagorR/oL5qCTYfiphPDlqjQzrTnkm/ OopDtOMdo43sogw/D0v6nXrV6G9TFmvNNlHQpEYF+nfcdngzIJfWql+zIj/2vh2fFXVQ ee6GxY02zCU5S1dDWjnTUbmM2AGy70Oq+n2c8TIaeXgjY5uQpS+/nRsfORNoAI1CpseJ 1TxQ/76seYKvEIy01CyBFWDKYQ0XEjqPNYjmN2iJoH0+mNrv7rJ/TD6lPJlwrrWus8Yk Cg== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3byja2dep1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:46 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 19SN5Loo158441; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:45 GMT Received: from nam12-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12lp2040.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.66.40]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3bx4gc9mf6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:45 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=YXbkziSgwpg6diSzA4hLCF6pdX1x5j8iHOK74yB6zv0ZhmSppM2MjCcgsMmohzKVIblKncvqvxMujCctSRYjywjs5raKLR4MIh7+kzwSzJRMN8gy1qwn6OOhZZ6Wfbj4+90zSJvbBhHkEm9KiA6hagK+LWvdF2TFk+nNQnGdDdYAcGDqm6uMkgCbR/Lqc92ZH2Or1ZIcO05b0qgJdzVQ15YGlWzLjtHfUKJTcVF8xBZ3j1+B/Y1vBXnL4bx4nBPCWH7BTYxuHVWa/Os0nDPR4B3zK/OXYKI65u164s6WU76e309t2wrWMtyVAkhKiE18CoxrHifyt2mPADVDWmrKNw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=kIKaM8TVWiE4NJE59hDJIsVLI4lC6ZA/yI4xFLHeKuw=; b=J7UCvY0mBLRmnm+1l9/oNjNqT/e2kEUQW7u0oenRj7I7lkvZddX1wgPPvbsddkxWDlkPM9WnOF7gaYVDkJP17lQz5K9a5pTUbvfwTlK7Xu+/vGbcbUTJxjs5eLGuUgJcaiOY46IoHKJHXXykNdTEe5FyHnEKoMIYAsLLIxzJz+xZBJrtQ5i9VkpFTgiFhmr8kkRAxPm386b+aS2cZk33V0DDkb8K0/g/wmK6Iz1v4Qw6PJMITVS7XDwElIhX8bynfZrZ+Hhk4IQZ7d9W/2tWuE+N/zd6XpxCEFXiMg72uuLyD5+6BksiWv2U+yLTkvJ3QG0vs98ps1BTkqPkZAxfuw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=kIKaM8TVWiE4NJE59hDJIsVLI4lC6ZA/yI4xFLHeKuw=; b=ECwCbiJGqXZi7fSZv8lHTZn14Sk8Mf9k4lUbq4UcBbnqnUnTpHkVyaVRh5K2K/ejD7lGgXwoiJf+aVZR09CVHcRonJ+u3oSlTIE1aBtrU7gkY1LwfJKPIcr25jsGCUFG/FLwl8UwvBiCFrvMIm1L0Umk92N9z33bsnIlMbKnyKg= Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by BY5PR10MB3826.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:1ff::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:42 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4628.020; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:42 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#51465: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#51465: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) Thread-Index: AdfMLrkaWtoQY1WgT8uuwqzGa4sQDgABAYfQAAGUM5A= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83h7d1rlk6.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83h7d1rlk6.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5c7b8446-0e58-4c61-834d-08d99a67e2e2 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR10MB3826: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(64756008)(186003)(38100700002)(38070700005)(66476007)(6506007)(66946007)(52536014)(71200400001)(9686003)(8936002)(26005)(6916009)(122000001)(55016002)(66446008)(66556008)(76116006)(86362001)(8676002)(33656002)(508600001)(4326008)(5660300002)(2906002)(7696005)(44832011)(316002)(81973001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?us-ascii?Q?PR9RiA0E+5snFCn4LD8UT0CnEpESRpFdksuBRobghskNgajZFVqjJtHILPlM?= =?us-ascii?Q?AliALRxn/a0YfgM23NeqMi3trDOWGlyTfR8LJ5qK/KAxAWE0y8tfdeXNllDm?= =?us-ascii?Q?rxAZJ5rVMIFws0gO5NXjmeRA/nGW2ZJClkvN5/ofXPvj/79XmnS5ERQyo4lm?= =?us-ascii?Q?JrYqlHioMhncO49nVQaRafqKFVPfXWs1JNY0lOblGAdtmEqKh62OOqceh5G4?= =?us-ascii?Q?jO9llpR7FwQvcuG8ZIdXxCxXHUfNCQ7NWYf2FSJMjXMiue3gDuUm7iuXnS3y?= =?us-ascii?Q?ZzULg2EAnPwLeKPW++PlG6IvMtdp74wZh+50Xf+yy0xyNGkvjk7aWG8XAWzf?= =?us-ascii?Q?rhwyg1DbFBNAlCi+gdT5dMVjeTZGbh8Mn5bcCBvcCps2BiUKYKitesJZnOeK?= =?us-ascii?Q?PsZ5LGQPst8jUR+MM2n5BJ08YujgmMypytQB/Pny3nB9Usu8uunq4iFVEKpn?= =?us-ascii?Q?reI6DwF1w4YvTFSE3a7VpdnfXUObvZ25cCAt0Zq7eqGKHOvhLSfGbnoeAzyp?= =?us-ascii?Q?S/OKIz4rf8DEH6OglOiyIMMDXcVeMY8mxWvdfQ0iyBcnTeS5PiXk1W3OGAZO?= =?us-ascii?Q?SxxBYGJwj0gdQwcrLD5npEJl4i9wPicKDr4xWI7Jzms3KPEGVD4GDDKP/S8j?= =?us-ascii?Q?ZBF3Y22ACoExc3C+swowjZ/VCzTulbC8Wd3SzBWcxSzLvU/ZupUV5q22RgUH?= =?us-ascii?Q?0FCaf521yLP5aVMMOgpj8u0ZukPRsStkxyOK7Dnt3LxAhzPHtr+l5bAPTo9p?= =?us-ascii?Q?qFzDsukvKdPYNY0owXaxPEs/3rUjoAWNrldQakzR1oGwE2MehGPJa//4JgxQ?= =?us-ascii?Q?WUBVC6TE/Rn4zFyczvbILgqt0GBxDzWlY4Rg4cr7abZmWpImaIpSynGyLsPK?= =?us-ascii?Q?Yy1xfqaFExNXJiqwAyGr+gAfe6ZhOtzi7ZW2SC0SqPak5wLRlIfDwDQUPrGw?= =?us-ascii?Q?UBcKfyi6uz4rWc6+/XyXFePY1pKyoiJOG6Mlal9bzHamhOCC9d1juSBX8cC5?= =?us-ascii?Q?kww1FOHOc8MhMr0sLVXfwBTuStrKKPJqamEcTZWKALQeGCeLC/443Gs3jmXm?= =?us-ascii?Q?syhBmTsy3wO7gGL+cdOvQCjf8mHxqKSXIklN4hvIIC/sy14ZyO3Y4NO46hMR?= =?us-ascii?Q?7LvFIewsSCxPvWNUwvXEjCfloDTh38u2QPFsUFMpCbubZTbUipWeGmw/CL+T?= =?us-ascii?Q?L9/fYwdn+C2z6I7JV9h1OQqTLmpysqNSTI+vLKTM6TkjTrasPKDcygjAhBej?= =?us-ascii?Q?9yi379ZRByzpJ/xsm0xMyJNHoR7jvd18LxmLuDGTv6UsdOL6CIfnMQaH662+?= =?us-ascii?Q?s98EQbTGIBrs7ERwB6DICrM5iSl1iYAh6Cp8TJlwtJFDMW27y5xW7raoOpE7?= =?us-ascii?Q?NPGkgAzUt8MYfbHeJZuHoe12oFozRDVrOViS5rjXZTNVqPFqFDVUqxy5gqUP?= =?us-ascii?Q?dUnzBvT3YyHOf+OFeH6PA7jIFdg47twB6piHgwBi8dsTdTaRNGAuX3BrsnOE?= =?us-ascii?Q?HWl2OsEdinw/PcEIHEm0xBi5AWoXwMzRQsFn6PVWfMqutsmedNSVP8xVZqLW?= =?us-ascii?Q?O2thDAnGCvJmzXrm3p7Onbxic6z28Uu3xA7e8dc8s07EWolKTuRP+9e8v5Ad?= =?us-ascii?Q?QQ=3D=3D?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5c7b8446-0e58-4c61-834d-08d99a67e2e2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Oct 2021 23:08:42.7066 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: G5mOs2YW7RYC0Xww8e2zXs59TfQMtdVZLPysW0oG8BVyHne9K2yqnfmxnIHd3kB8fiUHyCFPoTaVsj2b1WQOLA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR10MB3826 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10151 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2110280122 X-Proofpoint-GUID: zkDQDzEolkFhxHS1g99pgDAE75V5oxAf X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: zkDQDzEolkFhxHS1g99pgDAE75V5oxAf X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 51465 Cc: "51465@debbugs.gnu.org" <51465@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > (elisp) `Attribute Functions' says "the default attributes of FACE > > for newly created frames". I would expect to see :background as > > "LightGoldenrod", not as `unspecified'. >=20 > Why? because that's what you actually see in a new frame? Those > aren't the default attributes, those are the attributes specified by > defface. The Elisp manual says it returns "the default attributes of FACE for newly created frames." Whenever I create a new frame (from emacs -Q) that face on that frame has a :background of "LightGoldenrod" - never `unspecified'. Is the manual wrong? Or are the manual and the doc string trying to say the same thing but ending up suggesting different things? To me, the manual's text suggests I'd expect to see "LightGoldenrod", with emacs -Q, based on a GUI Emacs. The defface for `region' and a light background with at least 88 colors specifies "lightgoldenrod2". > > Why would one want to get a list of the face's attributes > > with every attribute value as `unspecified'? >=20 > I don't know. I guess those defaults are not very interesting, > indeed. Unless otherwise specified (which could be by `default-frame-alist' or whatever) a newly created frame has, according to the manual, the attributes for that face that are given by `face-all-attributes' when that function is passed a nil FRAME arg: "the default attributes of FACE for newly created frames." IOW, it calls this "the default attributes" for "newly created frames", not the attributes for some existing frame (this is the FRAME=3Dnil case). And yet, with emacs -Q, every newly created frame has :background set to "LightGoldenrod" (AFAICT). At the very least, most, if not all, newly created frames have that attribute value. None have that attribute with a value of `unspecified'. The function returns `unspecified' as the default for newly created frames (for this FACE's background). But it seems that the actual default for newly created frames is "LightGoldenrod". Perhaps there are multiple, unexplained meanings of "default" involved here? I'd think that "default" would just mean what you get for a newly created frame unless there is something that overrides that somehow. I'd think that "default" is what the current customized value of the face has - that's what you get by default for a newly created frame (or if it's not customized then the value given by the original defface). I'm hoping you at least see a possibility for confusion in the doc. And maybe even a problematic behavior (what's the point of returning `unspecified' everywhere?). ____ You didn't address my question about the seeming impedance mismatch between what `set-face-attribute' accepts as a list of attributes and what `face-all-attributes' returns as a list of attributes. So I submitted a separate bug report for that: #51469. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 28 19:53:40 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2021 23:53:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53517 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgFDH-0006WU-S4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:53:39 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f54.google.com ([209.85.216.54]:42511) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgFDE-0006WG-OI for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 19:53:38 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f54.google.com with SMTP id nn3-20020a17090b38c300b001a03bb6c4ebso6075934pjb.1 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:53:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Oo91auzLlCMMwP+lVtPss27nQF+pOdW2N3Vv6OfNd+w=; b=y5s7bTLpNKmGjnMbJHaTnVC+PWN1eW1rpDkMPSNdXRyowSo1L1OMygaguN37LPushv Iqg1Q46C/9SJt14EFs9P3P3+aPDrtJ252ye2iLqennnQIx7gyZjuPcvnm+55YuWAwq9n RdJWpB43CgMS2Z2ka276h8jfQi9tinqHtYyUWNlyu5rvgfxfD3MAnQsG0FLJzGeWTve4 elYtOFFZ7xsoMIY37KccC9HSo27/u5HocGiBEnHNiRiNTxC15VK1sVBVMwaLSUcaBBvA Kk2OA8I2WNcOTXgJkPh4hamTGMXhgWYrppzCLA6syeqdmE7klacnTgTDOt+cvZNHWbNh rGUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531rA3IUoDBp/zoLSQy/FWaDaglzmaREyzTXRp0QQZZn5U6gikPW 6n8oOkorQ2OHDQwnVInbwoyUViZlzWC05vj5R0iBDuCL X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxHliicG4qHvIP3bnxWdoZvXVM/XSiKBvej8X7TIXIbHT5L6jj+iAWb5ttNZYgxGbKrFG1daZK54iuZaiYo3uI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3b86:: with SMTP id pc6mr15887481pjb.143.1635465210859; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:53:30 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:53:30 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: control message for bug #51465 To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) severity 51465 wishlist quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 29 03:24:31 2021 Received: (at 51465-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2021 07:24:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53936 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgMFa-0003UK-OL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 03:24:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40104) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgMFY-0003U6-3Y for 51465-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 03:24:29 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57408) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgMFS-0006p3-RP; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 03:24:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=vjEulf5r7WcexBfGW4Sgjje8pqmD2Vmfy+g4vtk8gGE=; b=ZeqcY2nkQ/BTxKPWhNA3 fpU6Xp5x7XHEDV5wGrR39tGqmw+2AOr6ZE24gGmRfzC8P9VkV442NUzRZyimXlZ9l97F7ZubJMd59 PDxfeWGuiHF0j66nDFcLS5bzqU6W1E7qyyyNQeOw4ksPykGGimf1WTDZMwqxVHX6Q/mJmJ9RfZOuk kQNdHPJ8N8PV3mm38dX6ZbAggWZj0uwnBenqPoTJbFyFbkxOjzJhXHsVupp3l1PbyNa1GPc9r2K5w fYuPEwL7IbS1o0DmfI0W+YU9GAM07J57J/3fHCeLXCe6As+pvx3thLBm6AiE+0wavdvojJbQca+6d tvCeLEeDLKwqNg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4180 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgMFS-0002W9-C8; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 03:24:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:24:06 +0300 Message-Id: <83y26cqoo9.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:42 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#51465: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) References: <83h7d1rlk6.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 51465-done Cc: 51465-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "51465@debbugs.gnu.org" <51465@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 23:08:42 +0000 > > > > (elisp) `Attribute Functions' says "the default attributes of FACE > > > for newly created frames". I would expect to see :background as > > > "LightGoldenrod", not as `unspecified'. > > > > Why? because that's what you actually see in a new frame? Those > > aren't the default attributes, those are the attributes specified by > > defface. > > The Elisp manual says it returns "the default attributes > of FACE for newly created frames." > > Whenever I create a new frame (from emacs -Q) that face > on that frame has a :background of "LightGoldenrod" - > never `unspecified'. Is the manual wrong? No, it isn't wrong: the "default attributes for newly created frames" are those the face has before applying the definitions in defface. Note that the description of face-attribute in the same section already hints on what is going on here: If FRAME is ‘t’, this function returns the value of the specified attribute for newly-created frames (this is normally ‘unspecified’, unless you have specified some value using ‘set-face-attribute’; see below). If you use set-face-attribute with the FRAME argument t to set some attribute's value, the next call to face-all-attributes will no longer show 'unspecified' for that attribute. And the next frame created after that will use the attribute value you specified, effectively overriding the corresponding attribute's value defined by defface. > Unless otherwise specified (which could be by > `default-frame-alist' or whatever) a newly created > frame has, according to the manual, the attributes > for that face that are given by `face-all-attributes' > when that function is passed a nil FRAME arg: "the > default attributes of FACE for newly created frames." > > IOW, it calls this "the default attributes" for > "newly created frames", not the attributes for some > existing frame (this is the FRAME=nil case). > > And yet, with emacs -Q, every newly created frame > has :background set to "LightGoldenrod" (AFAICT). > At the very least, most, if not all, newly created > frames have that attribute value. None have that > attribute with a value of `unspecified'. That's because defface's definitions are merged with those defaults, when the frame is created, which in this case yields the non-unspecified background color. So you rarely if ever see those default attributes, except if you call this function. > I'd think that "default" would just mean what you > get for a newly created frame unless there is > something that overrides that somehow. That is correct, and that is what happens here; see above. > I'd think that "default" is what the current customized value of the > face has - that's what you get by default for a newly created frame > (or if it's not customized then the value given by the original > defface). Right. But the default values are before merging the defface's definitions. > I'm hoping you at least see a possibility for > confusion in the doc. Thanks, I've now clarified the documentation on the release branch to be more specific about the meaning of "default" in this context, and made sure the same explanation appears in both face-attribute and face-all-attributes. > And maybe even a problematic behavior I see no problems in the behavior, no. It's just a complex issue, and it isn't easy to explain it clearly to readers that aren't necessarily privy to the implementation details. Hopefully, it's more clear now. > (what's the point of returning `unspecified' everywhere?). Only if no default values were defined via set-face-attribute. And with that, I'm closing this bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 29 12:11:31 2021 Received: (at 51465-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2021 16:11:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55686 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgUTa-0000DR-P2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:11:31 -0400 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:60868) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgUTX-0000DF-HC for 51465-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:11:29 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246632.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 19TFbH0E004503; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:27 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2021-07-09; bh=PJFOK49uHeTJjH1+Y5P0O4aatcbl127+tFAlVedwMy8=; b=qo1zCUjT23wcbN2v8Ixh0+IYaJ4kDPUkr5mNlPC3+5a2hI3LYWevsdd4F0K2iiu4DZ2o TmyFKbUWo3TyqwQeOSObbZsoo7hcfWKzrtuB6nRQf72U5ZxZJ9q3D/LpNrtYm+IP8GDY 2WHtxIU6JZNDvW3sgR1nLWO7OT3aNgU0T7MmFqzjNr3BeEWts1fYGbtp4Fu3l+Wy6nCn cjy89Fn1N9vqaoWKSxFns1mtqNZaVv28rfERDdvAqdrgOS6+gtdKVOaeX67TojFnrXqD 3HxyN4BNKCwqMC4JLNoRHPNzU6tv9OxUG1Ab/+BGWVjCqF609HNrpr5gSw+wR+jziIbK Ew== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3byja2gxrf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:26 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 19TG5fkl002188; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:25 GMT Received: from nam10-bn7-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn7nam10lp2102.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.70.102]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3bx4gg4cpm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:25 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=JttBwEPjvk8vNP8h9qF6fp40DIonFdbvh37NB/WQSe2xelq43BaVYPzvdgH17aHS49Bd14inJATvHKTo+cb8rfaKOguLUNGUo94BLBv70RQ8uXDHsZ/TIzXilY+nVcMOry0zQC5BpYjsdACpS4Lm8iteeMMEaqxu5WjSfCrZ1QmuZE6CkftEcnRDBuz5vOAzZtmqJpQtwk51ERNN1eXu/abJeU0mZVhPq78/FMGdiVYgc3mTun9qQC27Lr3c9NZIrVWTHpnZMqWOqlcrvn8wWkngIXb1t9hNKE9ep5YxRZL/i3LygkekBx99bfMVn7PLTUsWEBIBXKLcl3FKPNuB2w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=PJFOK49uHeTJjH1+Y5P0O4aatcbl127+tFAlVedwMy8=; b=MnTnmst29d94Jx/fI8xm+foTIPEbrwtCJ1ZWo4lT5TrrkfAdWaWZC8H+z/O4jI3SWyIrEDBWsPd2/9sJipUCoMvrGn3WctpnmgCa7h4+Kji99FmQkhUith56BwhPKajwB8J10mo3VYnCKfP2yFC0OZPSnBVem7erZ/+5cCeHpK3xlf/S8Tzutqia+zkO/xVfm4rDae3Uwt9S16uNKlVWj573tVU88o8I+P6y2n/GDVzYK7FYfDXhdinhNFdrkDZYnL+naSyNNU7c1n5WKBjqbM1/ZVv66M5dTBphB3pnwxgxDAkSxRgE+VjKOeePLNli+RRH852v7klkgD7n4tNHYg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=PJFOK49uHeTJjH1+Y5P0O4aatcbl127+tFAlVedwMy8=; b=RNPgY9alwDjTflNaqLpXLrirbxqxHCMOvfybj2m0aPjPwzVsfWMSOTInGirr1FGQ00oYUPjDDLahgJ2QS0OqhKFr/ggZs9fMHnwQbOrYRrozHPLOwjtLhUm1+ZRIVklBci3jI6xhIvreaXCU+VKWexBhVXQsGc9O3UIjXmw7iFs= Received: from CO6PR10MB5473.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:355::21) by MWHPR10MB1711.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:301:a::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4649.14; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:23 +0000 Received: from CO6PR10MB5473.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0fa:fa4b:7c65:ddd6]) by CO6PR10MB5473.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d0fa:fa4b:7c65:ddd6%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4649.015; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:23 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#51465: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#51465: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) Thread-Index: AdfMLrkaWtoQY1WgT8uuwqzGa4sQDgAZ0glDABISaRA= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83h7d1rlk6.fsf@gnu.org> <83y26cqoo9.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83y26cqoo9.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 34fba74f-4c27-4529-78ec-08d99af6c06b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MWHPR10MB1711: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:CO6PR10MB5473.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(8936002)(52536014)(186003)(7696005)(66476007)(508600001)(26005)(316002)(6916009)(55016002)(8676002)(86362001)(66946007)(66446008)(44832011)(76116006)(38100700002)(71200400001)(5660300002)(2906002)(4326008)(122000001)(66556008)(38070700005)(64756008)(6506007)(33656002)(9686003)(81973001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?cDRpTTJwT1RkNFIwRExwLzVGQWtsSk9Rb2ZWbG85K3MxOEEwR2dpTjFpeDYx?= =?utf-8?B?WU43Nm10MnU3OXMrZzNkYllFTmZiQWtxNTVDeTg0VUF5eUhlRHkxUlZwYWFQ?= =?utf-8?B?bkk5anNrSjdoa3pPV29rSHl1REVPVWZLUzNsaTJyTU90TEMvNEVIWGJNNE82?= =?utf-8?B?bDRRQ2VobEVQMWRiWjlQalZQWDhlRlU5eGNmaHlhUGJPcDdVcDlLZEZnQ0xj?= =?utf-8?B?bG84cVZ4OXpZV3lMcGIzbURLeitBdFREaFRoQlVTVTgzdTVTem9MZ1hTNENy?= =?utf-8?B?QkRuVFdQSTZHNlRaU1NFL1BiWEVvTWRpVVl4enA3RHpJZEpNaW16bUh2c0RU?= =?utf-8?B?a0I1RGVDTzk2Nkw1M1BRUXNGZ0ZSem1zZkJ3cHVnNm41cGt5WjREVDZBSllF?= =?utf-8?B?Y0ZQeDhnQkxBVXVDb3BiblphS0xMeERkRHp6YktBWkx4RWdVdWRPRkIxRDdk?= =?utf-8?B?ZVg3KzQ4bnNldTVHUW0xeDdQandjUEdtNVlIckVRZ3h0R3FkTFU0R0lTaUZw?= =?utf-8?B?aExIWEplWThaNTlPWTNyUEZmOFJ6VkRpV2ZmMDA1ZXBaTDlOVFZjdnhBKytR?= =?utf-8?B?RXFZYUliT2hxWFZzU0IxZ21vdTlWZEQ2MWF5dUsyMk1qeStEeWxHa0hCVllk?= =?utf-8?B?QjRnejJ2aW5KQWgrYWlSejR2QU12QmxJVXhUNjNJWmVhcGNpWWxpU2hhYlNW?= =?utf-8?B?SUhPaTAzRWZLdHRwd3I0TlZZd2EvRWpvZ3cwclhCQWxjK3JWekVLT3lIQmpw?= =?utf-8?B?ejBIMkM4MzBoWWMrMThYajMzSUs4dzh4N2VUem1SUklVOTFMZTJEa3IzcHFm?= =?utf-8?B?SlYvT0tNcXo1TVkyd0VQNkhHVUpDdnI2c3pCdC9kcG9iUEtwMXZlNlplQlVo?= =?utf-8?B?QXNHNW5VdWZFK2FTQU5jQjBiYlVZbkVadUowaUo0WWVCUTMvRXZ5TFRZMHI4?= =?utf-8?B?NWx5OEltdHltTzU3eXNRakxCcWc2M0dVd0ZlOUUzcTBuNjFDeVk3cFBTcmpr?= =?utf-8?B?U1U3cEVvL3lNUWJCbk93cGtTN3BsbnIyaDd2MUprY3IyQW03SWQzUUNONXdk?= =?utf-8?B?Y0dXaHNwdjN2aEFJMDZUenlwUUJUUkNUOUlQRDZDZmJ5TngwRFB0MVdQeWlV?= =?utf-8?B?amJLRjZDcVVxYVRLZlpvWmp6ZDNrVWZQRk9vdXo1RzIrMjZTZTZ0UHpCN0s1?= =?utf-8?B?dTgzSmM4ZzMwbmRNcHZ3N0xCdDZMakhxLzdHcWY3MWQ4VjBTZmQrdmF5SlY1?= =?utf-8?B?elpibDUxZFFmOXpVMGIvQWt4bFhWRWF2MVFST2c4S0tPU2ZPcjNPU3FxT0Jw?= =?utf-8?B?anNKNUxiOHZvY0R6UFlXREhPZFpFczJCeW8rank2VmkwL21BVktucElaeE9V?= =?utf-8?B?ZFd5eFdzWC9JUXFBeVROK0l5aGFUWnN2MWQ4aFg1d0NISFkxTTUvVU1IcFRI?= =?utf-8?B?ZnNiU3U3SE92ZzhhcVhzL3FvWlJManN0OVVkbGdKbXVINFEyUnptZGxlVzcv?= =?utf-8?B?dUxTMHN4TzRodUlmS1BXRFBKYzF3N3BlWlRIQzUvdHhuV056S2NIYWpFSVpr?= =?utf-8?B?RTJUYmFaZVE4T0JhVXdNRE81RHdsRzFpSkdLUVIra3VjaWRnaHgzMDRrRThG?= =?utf-8?B?MHpja1FDd3ZoQU92ZDlUb3V5VVRxRUlSQ1RORmkrN0x1NmN2UzNWUTB0ZWc4?= =?utf-8?B?RWxMUk13dzA5UUNkVmVrZTBUTVh3d0UzdUhlT2wrbEdIVGZyRmVJbmdFY0Js?= =?utf-8?B?WFdFc3l2dVJWdEFEVzR5Vm9VaWgrUUtSREVwV0VVWW5wMHdmMkhwdFRjUVVB?= =?utf-8?B?VDhyREErV0VjRStUcDRYUFpnaHhiU2JYOGJBSUJZSnBVSnYxczh4RXhPNnV2?= =?utf-8?B?bXNRenFJOXhPN0RleUpEamQvc3BEUitrODlvODRwZjQxejdzMXpHVm4xcnFJ?= =?utf-8?B?WDE3Tzk4TEJFeExkbGRtNXV3T3grbExOZmcvaEFMUWwvSWN2aGJLbjRtS1FW?= =?utf-8?B?UHpWTmoyL01hZG9oelZWUG8ySG9TQkFvQktaYW9KNk1JZ3RXc0ppaEE3Z2Z3?= =?utf-8?B?WGhMVTFGNnBkTllFUEQ5b0FlbzE2TVdYRTcxaHREWnp4VkQzdzNDdjJ2WE5m?= =?utf-8?B?Z2RxWklkbEpUSExyTGd5d3FFOVhCVkJFRC8wNitXVUlUcUlhTGtNYzFKMnNR?= =?utf-8?B?YVE9PQ==?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO6PR10MB5473.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 34fba74f-4c27-4529-78ec-08d99af6c06b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Oct 2021 16:11:22.9630 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OsbT7oe9i3oYh5hkHc95utpz+ONi4dxJMsfIbqsiyShSVQ4un7FxDXHLIB4yNi9owyN/Ay8hrKiaddpZTlxWcw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR10MB1711 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10151 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=920 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2110290092 X-Proofpoint-GUID: n5QuVY3eaGlecSOwhljXrsI2rs24pSEE X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: n5QuVY3eaGlecSOwhljXrsI2rs24pSEE X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 51465-done Cc: "51465-done@debbugs.gnu.org" <51465-done@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) PiBObywgaXQgaXNuJ3Qgd3Jvbmc6IHRoZSAiZGVmYXVsdCBhdHRyaWJ1dGVzIGZvciBuZXdseSBj cmVhdGVkIGZyYW1lcyINCj4gYXJlIHRob3NlIHRoZSBmYWNlIGhhcyBiZWZvcmUgYXBwbHlpbmcg dGhlIGRlZmluaXRpb25zIGluIGRlZmZhY2UuDQoNCkhvcGVmdWxseSB0aGF0IGlzIHdoYXQgeW91 J3ZlIGFkZGVkIHRvIHRoZSBkb2MsIHRvIGNsYXJpZnkgaXQuDQoNCj4gPiBJJ20gaG9waW5nIHlv dSBhdCBsZWFzdCBzZWUgYSBwb3NzaWJpbGl0eSBmb3INCj4gPiBjb25mdXNpb24gaW4gdGhlIGRv Yy4NCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcywgSSd2ZSBub3cgY2xhcmlmaWVkIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudGF0aW9uIG9u IHRoZSByZWxlYXNlIGJyYW5jaCB0bw0KPiBiZSBtb3JlIHNwZWNpZmljIGFib3V0IHRoZSBtZWFu aW5nIG9mICJkZWZhdWx0IiBpbiB0aGlzIGNvbnRleHQsIGFuZA0KPiBtYWRlIHN1cmUgdGhlIHNh bWUgZXhwbGFuYXRpb24gYXBwZWFycyBpbiBib3RoIGZhY2UtYXR0cmlidXRlIGFuZA0KPiBmYWNl LWFsbC1hdHRyaWJ1dGVzLg0KDQpUaGFuayB5b3UuICBJJ2xsIGFzc3VtZSBpdCdzIGNsZWFyZXIg bm93Lg0KDQpUaGF0IHNhaWQgYW5kIGRvbmUsIHdoYXQgYSB1c2VyIGV4cGVjdHMgYXMgdGhlDQoi ZGVmYXVsdCIgYmVoYXZpb3IgKGZvciBuZXcgZnJhbWVzLCBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZSkNCmlzIHZlcnkg bGlrZWx5IHRvIGRpZmZlciBmcm9tIHRoaXMgb3RoZXIga2luZCBvZg0KImRlZmF1bHQiLg0KDQpJ IGhvcGUgeW91J3ZlIGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCBzb21lIHRlcm1pbm9sb2d5IHRvDQpkaXN0aW5ndWlz aCB0aGUgdHdvLCBpLmUuLCBzb21lIHdheSB0byB0YWxrIGFib3V0DQood2hhdCBJIGV4cGVjdCBp cykgdGhlIG1vcmUgaW1tZWRpYXRlL2xpa2VseSB1c2VyDQp1bmRlcnN0YW5kaW5nIG9mICJkZWZh dWx0IiBmb3IgbmV3IGZyYW1lcy4gDQoNCj4gSXQncyBqdXN0IGEgY29tcGxleCBpc3N1ZSwgYW5k IGl0IGlzbid0IGVhc3kgdG8NCj4gZXhwbGFpbiBpdCBjbGVhcmx5IHRvIHJlYWRlcnMgdGhhdCBh cmVuJ3QgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkNCj4gcHJpdnkgdG8gdGhlIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIGRldGFpbHMu ICBIb3BlZnVsbHksIGl0J3MNCj4gbW9yZSBjbGVhciBub3cuDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgdHJ5 aW5nLCBoZXJlIGFuZCBpbiB0aGUgZG9jLg0KDQo+ID4gKHdoYXQncyB0aGUgcG9pbnQgb2YgcmV0 dXJuaW5nIGB1bnNwZWNpZmllZCcgZXZlcnl3aGVyZT8pLg0KPiANCj4gT25seSBpZiBubyBkZWZh dWx0IHZhbHVlcyB3ZXJlIGRlZmluZWQgdmlhIHNldC1mYWNlLWF0dHJpYnV0ZS4NCg0KT0ssIGJ1 dCB3aGF0J3MgdGhlIHBvaW50IGluIHRoYXQgY2FzZSwgZXZlbiBpZg0KaXQncyB0aGUgb25seSBj YXNlPyAgTm90IGEgcmhldG9yaWNhbCBxdWVzdGlvbi4NCkkgZXhwZWN0IHRoZXJlIGlzIHNvbWUg dXNlL3BvaW50OyBidXQgSSBoYXZlIG5vDQppZGVhIHdoYXQgaXQgbWlnaHQgYmUuDQo= From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 29 12:20:37 2021 Received: (at 51465) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2021 16:20:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55698 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgUcO-0000U5-03 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:20:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46192) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mgUc8-0000Tc-NT for 51465@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:20:34 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42440) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgUc3-0008Li-3z; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:20:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=FgESkb/UFr5sdjN4VHtw2qpz9a1rXVrhcScwlBbXnG4=; b=YbsTXvsmZYR8 hlSRYAscpV/gU3ROKXaANplkRTEtTHLhI17WfHDIuHlvwhzLSvlYlz4wsatO9WZviWODELGMMZIgz T223jopq7SFNM9xgTltqq9kemQvZ6txh908FueUxl7HJJ8LWUF9tbo3UAF0cZaJ6+ShgomhZ6Z8Y1 SAFThDDbXoA7lxgpbcNkhgYc3W5a9Jg8YBPR1jJ9T+ayEVRxRTYPVVMup4dVVvEo+oux/PWxoPZ91 /toZ7qzUucT/jyGDs8mGNK4NupnqriJ9SguOmwBByOHQjk6K6VXBP6yXaM0F8M7VRGkB4rrOLGJJf mf9j2VT1+WgDii3QOQC7Nw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1295 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mgUbz-0003XJ-P3; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:20:14 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 19:19:56 +0300 Message-Id: <831r43refn.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:22 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#51465: 27.2; `face-all-attributes' doc or behavior (?) References: <83h7d1rlk6.fsf@gnu.org> <83y26cqoo9.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 51465 Cc: 51465@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "51465-done@debbugs.gnu.org" <51465-done@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:11:22 +0000 > > > No, it isn't wrong: the "default attributes for newly created frames" > > are those the face has before applying the definitions in defface. > > Hopefully that is what you've added to the doc, to clarify it. Yes. > That said and done, what a user expects as the > "default" behavior (for new frames, for example) > is very likely to differ from this other kind of > "default". When the frame is created, you see the faces after application of the spec in defface, so these defaults are never seen in that case. > I hope you've come up with some terminology to > distinguish the two, i.e., some way to talk about > (what I expect is) the more immediate/likely user > understanding of "default" for new frames. I see no reason to invent new terminology. I just explained what those defaults are and why they aren't seen after the frame is created. > > > (what's the point of returning `unspecified' everywhere?). > > > > Only if no default values were defined via set-face-attribute. > > OK, but what's the point in that case, even if > it's the only case? Not a rhetorical question. > I expect there is some use/point; but I have no > idea what it might be. I don't know either. This is an old function; perhaps it can be useful in some rare cases. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:51:21 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 12:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator