From unknown Thu Jun 19 13:59:11 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#50959 <50959@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#50959 <50959@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs Reply-To: bug#50959 <50959@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 20:59:11 +0000 retitle 50959 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs reassign 50959 emacs submitter 50959 Phil Sainty severity 50959 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 05:20:21 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 09:20:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57848 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWbBt-0005qI-KU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 05:20:21 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:52742) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWbBp-0005q8-MT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 05:20:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57422) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWbBo-0001d5-RO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 05:20:17 -0400 Received: from smtp-4.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.59]:48233) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWbBm-0007mo-0X for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 05:20:16 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=61857 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-4.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWbBh-0007iE-Lz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 22:20:10 +1300 Received: from ip-203-94-48-127.kinect.net.nz ([203.94.48.127]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sat, 02 Oct 2021 22:20:09 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 22:20:09 +1300 From: Phil Sainty To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs In-Reply-To: <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- Received-SPF: pass client-ip=60.234.4.59; envelope-from=psainty@orcon.net.nz; helo=smtp-4.orcon.net.nz X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_20=-0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Following up on https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-10/msg00109.html On 2021-10-02 21:53, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Phil Sainty >> On 2021-10-02 19:45, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> > There's a huge difference between breaking literal searches for >> > symbols by text-searching tools, and breaking basic Emacs commands >> > because the name the user sees and types is not known to Emacs. >> >> But shorthands does *both* of those things. >> >> The name the user sees is "s-foo". >> The name known to Emacs is "string-library-foo" (or whatever). >> The user types "C-h o s-foo RET" and Emacs says "no match". > > If this is correct (I didn't try), please report it as a bug. This was indeed the case in the build I'd compiled for testing: GNU Emacs 28.0.50 of 2021-09-29 Repository revision: b02a7ad2631b6ac3a95e53cb26a0aa1b1ab7e98a Repository branch: master I tested with a copy of so-long.el in which I renamed all of the so-long-* symbols to sl-* and then configured the local variable ;; elisp-shorthands: (("sl-" . "so-long-")) Loading the new sl.el confirmed that Emacs didn't recognise the shorthand symbols generally. (Until now I was under the impression that this was all part and parcel of the shorthands feature, but it turns out that it's a bug.) -Phil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 06:16:01 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 10:16:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57914 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWc3k-0007Hw-QS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 06:16:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60310) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWc3j-0007Hh-Hu for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 06:16:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49094) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWc3d-0000XK-4P; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 06:15:53 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1923 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWc3C-0004jq-Kw; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 06:15:47 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:15:11 +0300 Message-Id: <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Phil Sainty , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_T=E1vora?= In-Reply-To: <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> (message from Phil Sainty on Sat, 02 Oct 2021 22:20:09 +1300) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 22:20:09 +1300 > From: Phil Sainty > > Following up on > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-10/msg00109.html > > On 2021-10-02 21:53, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> From: Phil Sainty > >> On 2021-10-02 19:45, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> > There's a huge difference between breaking literal searches for > >> > symbols by text-searching tools, and breaking basic Emacs commands > >> > because the name the user sees and types is not known to Emacs. > >> > >> But shorthands does *both* of those things. > >> > >> The name the user sees is "s-foo". > >> The name known to Emacs is "string-library-foo" (or whatever). > >> The user types "C-h o s-foo RET" and Emacs says "no match". > > > > If this is correct (I didn't try), please report it as a bug. > > > This was indeed the case in the build I'd compiled for testing: > > GNU Emacs 28.0.50 of 2021-09-29 > Repository revision: b02a7ad2631b6ac3a95e53cb26a0aa1b1ab7e98a > Repository branch: master > > I tested with a copy of so-long.el in which I renamed all of the > so-long-* symbols to sl-* and then configured the local variable > ;; elisp-shorthands: (("sl-" . "so-long-")) > > Loading the new sl.el confirmed that Emacs didn't recognise the > shorthand symbols generally. João, if this problem still exists after your changes yesterday, could you please look into it? TIA. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 07:02:38 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 11:02:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58028 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWcms-0004i7-7N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:02:38 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f54.google.com ([209.85.128.54]:38474) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWcmq-0004eA-5n for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:02:36 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f54.google.com with SMTP id g193-20020a1c20ca000000b0030d55f1d984so2059140wmg.3 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:02:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OrDTqihne1qW+jOyVbkuq2TCPeuRVg98F+OuuOu3dBQ=; b=RmCOSF713dCJA5CdoLw34gkgj8WZy9JEesHzqOVu8Dqupr4oS4WWF+L9m5Ob025lmy 6yPEr57uCDTZeryjKshSDNd3uwoO6mKkWhDO0Y28W1vWRZS9suRAwFn7rsjhTR/45AsA 9SG6AFUvvsnwzpt4OEkBhkQY/z+wheDbt4nrwVOB54bgUorLQKyz2mV+yNdAZnyg9DkL ebmNoOernllAvBPOG5Kr9PNzqwvBNpePnPh0yVNxpB0LThv8X86dIHjkOWoVW0wFL9k6 3M06QMvJCTsMsUUeW8dc+rRti/TwI0nXskfLciwSr+Fqxh/2vsj93wj4szSEZCLtW5ko 9Gxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OrDTqihne1qW+jOyVbkuq2TCPeuRVg98F+OuuOu3dBQ=; b=trXgNKzjPY7SIF1/CVHThPgiooNJbt2NAbTHfseF4t2jWUtGw4WzoYtvNFn6UNJtRK +MOvzWxDpQG6q09z3GqmpsyDuNhYs29tg8xNcEs//bsKgs4TXZYMCoEqOyAxHqhteCpu bhekftHEsldz1veEUzF4LL5zw7dRJ0dIFveJ11PcP24sDh2+Kzd83Js13c+EnYfAYy5f 0b/3jxIq3Gk+yaqeDEqB1p2ydMdNdRp0OBzJ7QuWptScQJzA8WSQWlspSVrCdQcIobii dfUaIzVbKJKT6oXs0M+bLeqYTExaci1ZFiA89FUEoPHBqhdi1hhUXKDD/B4WRN2sBY44 ffNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533T5uY2pfLV4v/URxm30Y6GEdsl90YAWEO24kRC27PzzNjA5Tp1 BD1EfqwKCHSIzmirQ3tc67BZVJQ4keo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxYhwoBEn5pY9VkNAbOOIbX4dizyomEhfTPV9so4Mmtm5RBb7G6CcrjqnSbbxcYDq3v8/Y5TQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:a08:: with SMTP id z8mr9050871wmp.52.1633172549344; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug ([87.196.156.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s24sm8022503wmh.34.2021.10.02.04.02.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:02:28 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:02:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:15:11 +0300") Message-ID: <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Loading the new sl.el confirmed that Emacs didn't recognise the >> shorthand symbols generally. > > Jo=C3=A3o, if this problem still exists after your changes yesterday, cou= ld > you please look into it? TIA. It's not after my changes from yesterday, no. This is by design. Emacs doesn't recognize the shorthands symbols generally (if "generally" is to mean "globally") because shorthands _don't_ exist in the global obarray. They exist in the buffer. I'm going to type in the relevant part of my reply to Phil in emacs-devel, when complaining about C-h o not finding his shorthand. That's only when the user types that in the minibuffer and doesn't associate [it] in any way to the buffer where [the user] sets up that particular shorthand (remember, shorthands aren't global: that's the point). Much like if I type 'import foo as bar' in my Python of JavaScript program and then go search [globally, on the internet] for 'bar' I don't get the results for 'foo'. =20=20=20=20=20 But (have you seen the animated gif?) if you type 'C-h o' with point ON TOP OF 's-foo', then M-x describe-symbol will be prepolulated with string-library-foo, and need only type RET. In other words, Phil, if you wish me to do anything about this bug, you must explain exactly what you are doing and what you expect. What does it mean precisely for "Emacs to recognise the shorthand symbols generally". Currently it "recognizes" them when the buffer where they are setup is current. Jo=C3=A3o From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 07:09:45 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 11:09:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58047 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWctl-0004tv-NB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:09:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41636) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWctk-0004tg-93 for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:09:44 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50344) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWctd-0003gj-Ud; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:09:37 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1261 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWctc-00051i-IC; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:09:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:09:22 +0300 Message-Id: <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28g?= =?utf-8?B?VMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:02:30 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:02:30 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> Loading the new sl.el confirmed that Emacs didn't recognise the > >> shorthand symbols generally. > > > > João, if this problem still exists after your changes yesterday, could > > you please look into it? TIA. > > It's not after my changes from yesterday, no. This is by design. Emacs > doesn't recognize the shorthands symbols generally (if "generally" is to > mean "globally") because shorthands _don't_ exist in the global obarray. > They exist in the buffer. Would it be possible to see if the current buffer (from which the minibuffer was entered) has shorthands, and if so, apply them to minibuffer input? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 07:14:21 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 11:14:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58058 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWcyD-00051m-GU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:14:21 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f43.google.com ([209.85.128.43]:54228) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWcyC-00051Z-ET for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:14:20 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f43.google.com with SMTP id z2so9058194wmc.3 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:14:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1Q/Yorw/VMnhwQDeo7/48OgONv6Lg/uW0Lec59ntp7I=; b=QSK+VBIf2stFzcDSXZ+IJE/7VInfLwVNSFEvInBlIhxL/xmDstk7g7Lp3icLpWSKa8 +xme+OsrrLFoh/ajKpIsJIgM1aLwrL0pc/szjY9KWQlYL1zvEv4yIiaRsnmt4wzeaoFE hFG3kXUrIlFNNmLj7wDfaoJOQw6QXvJTnIspTFshwoXbJHxRJh7dqAFuOhvAaWuLeQ0b iwdARdhfWhDgw/p1RqzjX9BNrQaFGNuiJer/btwksuxOy8kZGGVS/clSJ0tlUQrceUYi SFpWzEc8U5LkEKb0+T4jUyEYKBXmmg+pygxmEBX9wGg4mmw6UtFrmtpHNlTCmCMSqswO jKLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1Q/Yorw/VMnhwQDeo7/48OgONv6Lg/uW0Lec59ntp7I=; b=4HYRuAGoE5w1bk3NULQh6PDgdCfxTdhgRKvga8zF61JcDQ08L+UMMZtu9oTa88vZux LgudURAuOmi/2Lz01C6Aqgb5IvbktHhJY4KVI92NIV1daQIjp0eVQ5jf26J3YxkPbks5 +KcAYsguSTTW5HKVoZvwkGyy+BF6+Cb/uaJst91mu78pRYpLIMRPDLG7Cb9wCn8MRZVe POart6IWD4u/st4OJ2UPRso1pB7El8W2nrva1CwlwfQKU2GD+2nmtco3UUi6hZzYeCD7 ietwqqtyli7083eKSTak/jFFOXdx/mUdKMenkblMiiQS/GFCfbzm1lhfn8cuBW8y1qam T+HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530lDeE7q1x4iGY/27GUpdzqb/nm7mT0KQYSSK0dL8w+aOIOEw8c 860wsSS+o4O3zjJEwUWvG8ZWoeTDd5s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzAaiPs67aGgwZKN/7d/ayLi3aKjCqfwjgvzS6eyAFpxFtqU9N6W8SFDl6Q6JT9lYntS8NGZg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:5413:: with SMTP id i19mr2273130wmb.31.1633173254369; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (87-196-156-235.net.novis.pt. [87.196.156.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m17sm6904207wmc.20.2021.10.02.04.14.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:14:13 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:14:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:09:22 +0300") Message-ID: <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora >> Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:02:30 +0100 >>=20 >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>=20 >> >> Loading the new sl.el confirmed that Emacs didn't recognise the >> >> shorthand symbols generally. >> > >> > Jo=C3=A3o, if this problem still exists after your changes yesterday, = could >> > you please look into it? TIA. >>=20 >> It's not after my changes from yesterday, no. This is by design. Emacs >> doesn't recognize the shorthands symbols generally (if "generally" is to >> mean "globally") because shorthands _don't_ exist in the global obarray. >> They exist in the buffer. > > Would it be possible to see if the current buffer (from which the > minibuffer was entered) has shorthands, and if so, apply them to > minibuffer input? Yes, much like it is done with C-M-i, basically. Jo=C3=A3o From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 07:54:01 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 11:54:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58126 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdab-0008JA-IT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:54:01 -0400 Received: from smtp-2.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.43]:57973) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdaZ-0008Iv-Nf for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:54:00 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=45449 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-2.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdaV-0007dn-Lb; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 00:53:55 +1300 Received: from ip-203-94-48-127.kinect.net.nz ([203.94.48.127]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sun, 03 Oct 2021 00:53:55 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 00:53:55 +1300 From: Phil Sainty To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs In-Reply-To: <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <080048e19179c4f4bd8ab0241d733190@webmail.orcon.net.nz> X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi João, On 2021-10-03 00:02, João Távora wrote: > In other words, Phil, if you wish me to do anything about this bug, you > must explain exactly what you are doing and what you expect. What does > it mean precisely for "Emacs to recognise the shorthand symbols > generally". Currently it "recognizes" them when the buffer where they > are setup is current. I'm just the messenger on this occasion. I was describing to Eli how shorthands exhibit the exact same problem that was objectionable in the "nameless" approach, and he asked me to raise it as a bug. I think that the shorthand symbols will need to be interned to avoid this (or at least I can't think of any other solution which avoids the problem). Perhaps define them as aliases -- or even obsolete aliases, if the long-term preference is for other libraries to migrate from s-* and the likes to using the proper names? -Phil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 07:54:20 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 11:54:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58129 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdat-0008Jt-SR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:54:20 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f44.google.com ([209.85.128.44]:50987) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdas-0008Jc-56 for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:54:18 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f44.google.com with SMTP id j27so9137109wms.0 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:54:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F/HJRitYemS7Fg5YDXYVIV+qHtWQ7AhSmWSIVxJkaMY=; b=B7l/GQH/qVpuit1P4TP1dPC4+5WztK2RlQKxrIIi7amBiH+asDpPVncJ2VJAZzwmq9 a+XsZEz1oCoEtCECAiN7EbP022nJA3WB7eFCxER61SVJIOazU8btc6Ju72ySPVMhsTmh OOmLg7d0c8VDpk4Nmbo1kP1Fl4CJeedTFoQi5q1Alme7vVoSBg2SoRUfYnTR7MK/ktmF gi5P7D6uXWtEL+yz5H12BRtIghHfRzvPSUNA7MIwKcR8OqT8+RT/9FcKUYynYO6DTUh6 fHzTopLVffNaAMmOfpRMjBszaethR7XafKw8Mx0E3JuMNZER+w4AIRmxpoZFSc2N4NLs p7yA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F/HJRitYemS7Fg5YDXYVIV+qHtWQ7AhSmWSIVxJkaMY=; b=fH2ZhUam09Oy69mYfGf911IijGF4OvkqGHWI3cUbjhCre8EIHHpMnfOcCvfVzLBg8J 6Hd4BP8uBk5EzGdId51gM9W5Ghl4wzCHsBg7qArh0dd/CBqeaDpboTsebcvhltZ1i9pJ 6ZAZqZhlQIQEfRRjq9UugKINnVBD+BknA/mi4/bLzlvX883oKXbAznlG3EosHY4Ti7rq 79M9nPwRy8ZdU0+znaVoqhVbAhhFLeJ5Vy41UfMThz1eWFaLnW5fDXTx/SDJIS9sQJq9 X3H9x2FS4Gk/E7NNHOBVgAjKWcVxC3FNLasvl3INvGvbM5r0XxTC50YtVh9AJvEiSuH1 FybQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532R/4F69uzr1B9nMjJdBXVcyI3L8uiemtOLC6iAUCVJ7VzfTW6n X5V1msuB6kw6lq6VumgxT+KiL6a5yOg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1DSzrMNY7wVMbbzPpGM7SBmBpB9QRAJOMkW3mAri8NpEm9QlV2PqrRje2wPBDiuUsCREQIw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:4f12:: with SMTP id l18mr9201927wmq.156.1633175652146; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug ([87.196.156.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v6sm491739wrd.71.2021.10.02.04.54.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 02 Oct 2021 04:54:11 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:54:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vor?= =?utf-8?Q?a=22's?= message of "Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:14:15 +0100") Message-ID: <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Would it be possible to see if the current buffer (from which the >> minibuffer was entered) has shorthands, and if so, apply them to >> minibuffer input? > > Yes, much like it is done with C-M-i, basically. Let me improve on that. That it _can_ be done doesn't mean that it _should_ be done, but we can decide on that. There are various levels to this integration: 0. no integration 1. This is the current integration. I.e. when C-h o is pressed on the symbol the global name is discovered and used as the default. This is how SLIME work with CL's namespacing system. SLIME is a very well tested and widely appreciated Common Lisp IDE for Emcas. 2. The shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered are _not_ in the completions list, but typing one of them interns the symbol with those shorthands present, so you get the desired result. This would fix Phil's visually-copy-and-type scenario. 3. (Eli's suggestion): the completion list would be augmented with the shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered from. In levels 2 and 3 the user might be surprised that what once worked for one 'C-h o' session no longer works for another 'C-h o' session. The only way I can see this being acceptable is if the user is somehow made aware -- visually or otherwise -- that the list she is seeing is somehow connected to the origin buffer. In contrast, C-M-i (where level 3 happens) never really leaves the buffer: its results are connected to it because they will be inserted there. Jo=C3=A3o From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 08:10:48 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 12:10:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58145 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdqq-0000IJ-D3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:10:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50740) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdqo-0000I5-L1 for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:10:47 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51344) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdqi-0007D1-Nl; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:10:40 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4977 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWdqW-0005vO-8X; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:10:40 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 15:10:10 +0300 Message-Id: <83tuhzbpb1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Phil Sainty In-Reply-To: <080048e19179c4f4bd8ab0241d733190@webmail.orcon.net.nz> (message from Phil Sainty on Sun, 03 Oct 2021 00:53:55 +1300) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <080048e19179c4f4bd8ab0241d733190@webmail.orcon.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 00:53:55 +1300 > From: Phil Sainty > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > > Hi João, > > On 2021-10-03 00:02, João Távora wrote: > > In other words, Phil, if you wish me to do anything about this bug, you > > must explain exactly what you are doing and what you expect. What does > > it mean precisely for "Emacs to recognise the shorthand symbols > > generally". Currently it "recognizes" them when the buffer where they > > are setup is current. > > I'm just the messenger on this occasion. I was describing to Eli how > shorthands exhibit the exact same problem that was objectionable in the > "nameless" approach, and he asked me to raise it as a bug. Let me translate: is "C-h" command the only use case you have in mind where you saw a problem with shorthands? If there are others, and they involve Emacs's internal functionalities (as opposed to, say, searching with Grep or some other text-oriented tool), please describe them. > I think that the shorthand symbols will need to be interned to avoid > this (or at least I can't think of any other solution which avoids the > problem). They are already, or something very similar. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 08:30:07 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 12:30:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWe9X-0000mW-GP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:30:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52798) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWe9V-0000ku-GU for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:30:05 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51966) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWe9P-0007nu-U2; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:29:59 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2395 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWe9P-0004xp-E4; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:29:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 15:29:42 +0300 Message-Id: <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28g?= =?utf-8?B?VMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:54:13 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:54:13 +0100 > > 0. no integration > > 1. This is the current integration. I.e. when C-h o is pressed on the > symbol the global name is discovered and used as the default. This > is how SLIME work with CL's namespacing system. SLIME is a very well > tested and widely appreciated Common Lisp IDE for Emcas. > > 2. The shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered are > _not_ in the completions list, but typing one of them interns the > symbol with those shorthands present, so you get the desired result. > This would fix Phil's visually-copy-and-type scenario. > > 3. (Eli's suggestion): the completion list would be augmented with the > shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered from. Are 2 and 3 significantly different (from the implementation POV)? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 08:37:16 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 12:37:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58160 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWeGS-0000wk-9n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:37:16 -0400 Received: from smtp-2.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.43]:47251) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWeGQ-0000wc-LA for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:37:15 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=35848 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-2.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWeGM-0001Td-5J; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 01:37:10 +1300 Received: from ip-203-94-48-127.kinect.net.nz ([203.94.48.127]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sun, 03 Oct 2021 01:37:09 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 01:37:09 +1300 From: Phil Sainty To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs In-Reply-To: <83tuhzbpb1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <080048e19179c4f4bd8ab0241d733190@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83tuhzbpb1.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <1c00feac3e4d37ba13502ee7754084a4@webmail.orcon.net.nz> X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2021-10-03 01:10, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Let me translate: is "C-h" command the only use case you have in mind > where you saw a problem with shorthands? If there are others, and > they involve Emacs's internal functionalities (as opposed to, say, > searching with Grep or some other text-oriented tool), please describe > them. I think it's literally anything that hasn't has custom support added as part of the shorthands feature? E.g.: * describe-function|-variable|-face|-symbol * apropos|-command|-variable|-user-option|-symbol * customize-apropos|-face|-variable|-option * info-lookup-symbol * execute-extended-command * anything using read-command|-variable|-face-name * anything using these interactive codes: a -- Function name: symbol with a function definition. C -- Command name: symbol with interactive function definition. This skips events that are integers or symbols. S -- Any symbol. v -- Variable name: symbol that is ‘custom-variable-p’. etc, etc... Basically everything? -Phil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 10:02:57 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 14:02:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60116 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWfbN-0003oR-BU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:02:57 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f176.google.com ([209.85.215.176]:34433) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWfbM-0003oE-8R for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:02:56 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f176.google.com with SMTP id 133so12173227pgb.1 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:02:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gQDQQpaSPIsxlkbYrMQUnIwh2mNxU3x/mNdRRrXCJ+k=; b=ePFy2zmCsNhKXA059TlQ3ux6Wn2WEbUjJ7vOrHQHkyb90KuShA+OaDSdXaQNg8zBNy eDa4wy8/KfC2lrESHpBpHtE6FGp+8FUXTlzdIOE49gUcc4vLN5M6/dExvYCb6753UhCY qW30v7u++Q8cojuDxy80qSUJdyQhRrt4InLF2lV4ORLl7zuhNZjhZlq+s8OS1XWpmqvb 25EJWDB5qo1HESH8QY6Ki6M/0O7fVFpvjXkQ0nTzW+gMvFYPwime2Aww2hgjUPrh+xul rIe6IpN5+CEpdOiNTzQteMYyEPjczZ88hNlMVBe0Apy7boqbNNjrpn+CSXDBbokTmSkb VIyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gQDQQpaSPIsxlkbYrMQUnIwh2mNxU3x/mNdRRrXCJ+k=; b=lmy8g5T+LOGNUzc6J4MEaUGGLnOb4WfB2s1Hs0zX8EPlP8ZK8P2HccaNhmV387edBY vyAdrnURHY8FKVwu2v3ZkSOdDfTRnePCt6BhjpgD28Z2O+/ZIBwYC/DA8yypu/UbxPdS QaRWvaHxGwEnDbU6mSOORxkpDbISPFzi+4TG5k1rhncz40qIcG9Jn33t6bzwwvcnwlPm SRafcBkr3dm9B50wIMndY4z/rfylRXFWR3Y7Dce+fHEbYpJhes4N4IVR0Np2IeCmTy0x vpp91fhQsdMMG24IN9mLQnR9mHsHB4ucYELgn591pYHWlqgzLSUyFrc0OWCBVsn7vZrY RdVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5319LDIb5u3PhViQ2DOeHBN4B9NtIGghAajGG2FI4T/0xSFVr04Z HpBN4Z285s77hSqgdFr8ifF6dyGVkNme6R7Y2CM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQHkypmzHHQttfr1+9mu2j62enPOqeHDllzAL/jyKza1qi+PvUqJKLfavurwzq8xoGmU4PI/gu4Di4mXrxVNw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:24d0:b0:448:29d1:518f with SMTP id d16-20020a056a0024d000b0044829d1518fmr16655669pfv.72.1633183370197; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:02:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:02:41 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 1:30 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora > > Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > > Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:54:13 +0100 > > > > 0. no integration > > > > 1. This is the current integration. I.e. when C-h o is pressed on the > > symbol the global name is discovered and used as the default. This > > is how SLIME work with CL's namespacing system. SLIME is a very wel= l > > tested and widely appreciated Common Lisp IDE for Emcas. > > > > 2. The shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered are > > _not_ in the completions list, but typing one of them interns the > > symbol with those shorthands present, so you get the desired result. > > This would fix Phil's visually-copy-and-type scenario. > > > > 3. (Eli's suggestion): the completion list would be augmented with the > > shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered from. > > Are 2 and 3 significantly different (from the implementation POV)? I think so. I think 2 can be achieved by setting elisp-shorthands buffer-locally in the minibuffer and removing the "require-match" flag requirement to whatever completing-read call happens there. 3 is achieved by calculating the list of completions using 'elisp--completion-local-symbols` and then filtering it down as usual. "require-match" is kept untouched. Jo=C3=A3o From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 10:17:46 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 14:17:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60151 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWfph-0004Ch-V0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:17:46 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f173.google.com ([209.85.210.173]:33789) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWfpg-0004CU-4z for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:17:44 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f173.google.com with SMTP id s16so10593167pfk.0 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:17:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qU7ENWczmitgjYUQV3BEVE6K5HksUHVSwkURHwS5zhs=; b=a0o6ZbksLUGpZbUE5/oIDApTk/KUs1oQ3PntkZ4KZSz3mXGap0ditDQFb7RmE3oL7H zy0EYA9I3M3Zi78zhNJY71lvt6FaeHddRVR+YpqrTh3yiskXH1owQnoYX4yVaw6r4zs/ jnY6PCemYbbFP/ZBv6zIllj1v/yS5pgD9QRiV9wvcHB7DXSdtOTayerQmveaIzRJSskV c5Vih61rS21io5Qo2ZCy60dSDpuLRYS3hi6PZ9ip4KGKifofqU8ISHq+8W8xyWF/dQIq qMeNar+Zp/F7iYqBV3+f8ZsDHQMp7iYspTIv3jThviQCCjpso4rzROu8Eo0sEr0Obwzi DXpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qU7ENWczmitgjYUQV3BEVE6K5HksUHVSwkURHwS5zhs=; b=io8gG23DOJiygRLtQXJtHmkQ/n+vg8D4m3wo1pP+PgEv1Co9VK4JK4zrppTp4gbWX0 NRBOaY+g8rdX6k0CH2WCWvuIUtp3anyTeTjy/66DF7SgcEDjRusmefd1URmnHO3qEVlr 2/TMPuhFQW0WaUMMHVPNqFFiyx+KlHo38A2O8luNTNOWJHiSEm7FL8CmeTuZWL/voBEV bVr2+QeYqgl2APd1nhwHQJaN9YG8uNg/noOnR5U+JWlXozEEHotuotJg80tm6kgJNJzX s3SOBk7DK/Agjp6KpHQ+x10L9NW3aluux89kMr+lQIGvKX+ItssyHbxRYrrFQPxPnob+ s+zA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532KPj/HFPZ0psrAcgx7TUhOqBe8cmz59VR41la5LjP/0HG8CvOn rvYH250EQPhDCQjEET9VeRNM/+VFJoy8Sg0iIZo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxBXJjwzDuGnYLQv2Jc0U6C2gq7kJh/yZmeSlY21fWo2LJQtzE6tN88zFXk0nCauuZSy0BGU2y46Qd2UIN0S5c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:24d0:b0:448:29d1:518f with SMTP id d16-20020a056a0024d000b0044829d1518fmr16713940pfv.72.1633184258125; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:17:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <080048e19179c4f4bd8ab0241d733190@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83tuhzbpb1.fsf@gnu.org> <1c00feac3e4d37ba13502ee7754084a4@webmail.orcon.net.nz> In-Reply-To: <1c00feac3e4d37ba13502ee7754084a4@webmail.orcon.net.nz> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:17:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Phil Sainty Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 1:37 PM Phil Sainty wrote: > > On 2021-10-03 01:10, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Let me translate: is "C-h" command the only use case you have in mind > > where you saw a problem with shorthands? If there are others, and > > they involve Emacs's internal functionalities (as opposed to, say, > > searching with Grep or some other text-oriented tool), please describe > > them. > > I think it's literally anything that hasn't has custom support added > as part of the shorthands feature? > > E.g.: > > * describe-function|-variable|-face|-symbol > * apropos|-command|-variable|-user-option|-symbol > * customize-apropos|-face|-variable|-option > * info-lookup-symbol > * execute-extended-command > * anything using read-command|-variable|-face-name > * anything using these interactive codes: > > a -- Function name: symbol with a function definition. > C -- Command name: symbol with interactive function definition. > This skips events that are integers or symbols. > S -- Any symbol. > v -- Variable name: symbol that is =E2=80=98custom-variable-p=E2=80=99. > > etc, etc... > > Basically everything? As it is clear, that's not the case. These things have and will always deal with the global table of symbols obarray. These commands operate on symbols. Shorthands are _not_ symbols! They are not! They are a textual indirection to symbols, which -- as the manual explained long before I touc= hed it -- are objects composed of four things, blablabla. Maybe this helps you think: it's just like (intern (concat "foo" "bar")) is another type of indirection to a symbol. A run-time indirection. Shorthands are read-time indirections. So: when the commands you reference are invoked in the buffer where shorthands exist with point on the shorthand you which to describe, lookup,= etc all those functions and the interactive codes do the right thing. What is = that? They follow the indirection to the symbol and operate on the symbol, as they always have. If you find some case where they DON'T follow this indirection, where they clearly COULD reasonably follow it then that is a bug and or feature request for shorthands. But you should explain also why think it is reasonable. Consider how SLIME= (and also proprietary Common Lisp IDE's, I think) have dealt with this issue (se= arch "package local nicknames" in your favourite search engine). Soon I will propose that we font-lock shorthands specially (or at least mak= e it optional). That should be easy to do, and should, in my opinion, extinguis= h at least some of your anguish. Jo=C3=A3o From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 10:21:06 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 14:21:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60175 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWfsw-0004Jj-02 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:21:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41028) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWfst-0004IT-JJ for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:21:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53878) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWfsn-00077N-Ee; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:20:57 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1416 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWfsn-0005G2-1O; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:20:57 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 17:20:42 +0300 Message-Id: <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:02:41 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:02:41 +0100 > Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > 0. no integration > > > > > > 1. This is the current integration. I.e. when C-h o is pressed on the > > > symbol the global name is discovered and used as the default. This > > > is how SLIME work with CL's namespacing system. SLIME is a very well > > > tested and widely appreciated Common Lisp IDE for Emcas. > > > > > > 2. The shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered are > > > _not_ in the completions list, but typing one of them interns the > > > symbol with those shorthands present, so you get the desired result. > > > This would fix Phil's visually-copy-and-type scenario. > > > > > > 3. (Eli's suggestion): the completion list would be augmented with the > > > shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered from. > > > > Are 2 and 3 significantly different (from the implementation POV)? > > I think so. > > I think 2 can be achieved by setting elisp-shorthands buffer-locally > in the minibuffer and removing the "require-match" flag requirement to > whatever completing-read call happens there. > > 3 is achieved by calculating the list of completions using > 'elisp--completion-local-symbols` and then filtering it down as usual. > "require-match" is kept untouched. You are saying that 3 is easier than 2? Then I think we should do 3, as it's better from the user's POV, right? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 10:43:20 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 14:43:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60189 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgES-0004vm-Cr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:43:20 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f47.google.com ([209.85.216.47]:38744) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgEQ-0004vX-Gh for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:43:19 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f47.google.com with SMTP id g13-20020a17090a3c8d00b00196286963b9so1257763pjc.3 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:43:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oh0EjatMDdUkBb2v0r3a7zYDbw64izDAhPBXYiJqE5Q=; b=Whn/LH8mNsJ2AQ/GQNNgWi7Li+8WCS/O2p5k8e0WKUWQzg7Dtk5cMBtid1tEHQ7rT1 JxtpwDzq2BdtPoR2j8bl/iZ/8OT49VKJ/FF6Cf0WYeYTgdI3l5+326K2lwco73p2YbCc OwBDPI+6Ront4ZCj0nvuZ39JpH7XdxWVLjlhKu3vGshZ4N+k0OFn2GkOUmx/cqrMSYb9 Vy0iWNGSi8En/HeVL84Gg7q5hbZ+jOgHjW06ORVFF5D3jpC2Xw99soPRKPQCNePfH9yV EdpMkxkB5ofUdV9/5y+MH8zB8XAV+0RvHNhqmd3u2YdVsEGpyB1Oda0LvVyJoUkYdZWu 1HNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oh0EjatMDdUkBb2v0r3a7zYDbw64izDAhPBXYiJqE5Q=; b=Ncp1Kj8Of5iJHMTvHb2C0vJ3GaOT/RiXbLEnywHl/jCorbQQXuDld9ZLEVfWrLv+1G 9w4UvWuqrQOSumibYHrZLEH65PumlmAfq+cRBJq3YXL49/MJJkPm+O0JUUgbR96NP2T/ oW104MSP1LcbHmfx0kirJc4VLqISmaCM6de1KBi09Yjw84VsW3kRqC8JZ/84ROaYc/+T KYJKKn0Kd4y6l2wiTJ4d8jqN0Jl+s3t633aTitJ7o3lLIBWyEMfOIsgvwKGoZ92bIXmZ vXtt4FJmQcGAWQ8jT0PzPHSo3kpGa2MSQDhta9T47UlnJhgv7EyoSPeP/q2NHvWWR9Y/ Bi7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533K3UNmgnfsCPG7ePx8WA79RUnONGYt6KNKfuN10npI9fAUdji9 ZnZsGsTkb1LsL6VA19L5XjpbJFctxdBPXH5e1Xs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxGd0ou+rN9JRiGkyUNyPYryI5KqqM6CZ7UuWdKQmhlgfHh7fl5rPfFzIJIYwhVeWnIIc4/d3UWJWvOKbaFTyE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:bcc6:b0:138:d3ca:c356 with SMTP id o6-20020a170902bcc600b00138d3cac356mr14430372pls.6.1633185792476; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 07:43:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:43:03 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 3:20 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora > > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:02:41 +0100 > > Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > 0. no integration > > > > > > > > 1. This is the current integration. I.e. when C-h o is pressed on = the > > > > symbol the global name is discovered and used as the default. T= his > > > > is how SLIME work with CL's namespacing system. SLIME is a very= well > > > > tested and widely appreciated Common Lisp IDE for Emcas. > > > > > > > > 2. The shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered = are > > > > _not_ in the completions list, but typing one of them interns th= e > > > > symbol with those shorthands present, so you get the desired res= ult. > > > > This would fix Phil's visually-copy-and-type scenario. > > > > > > > > 3. (Eli's suggestion): the completion list would be augmented with = the > > > > shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered from= . > > > > > > Are 2 and 3 significantly different (from the implementation POV)? > > > > I think so. > > > > I think 2 can be achieved by setting elisp-shorthands buffer-locally > > in the minibuffer and removing the "require-match" flag requirement to > > whatever completing-read call happens there. > > > > 3 is achieved by calculating the list of completions using > > 'elisp--completion-local-symbols` and then filtering it down as usual. > > "require-match" is kept untouched. > > You are saying that 3 is easier than 2? Then I think we should do 3, > as it's better from the user's POV, right? No, I don't know that for sure. And I don't think it's better from the user's POV. See my reply to Phil. It would mistakenly provide the idea that Shorthands are some alias to the symbol (in the sense of defvaralias). They are not. The user would then be quite surprised to find the list of completions chan= ge behind his back as he changes the place of origin of those C-h o calls. It could only make sense if these interactive prompts were clearly tied to the buffers they originated from. The current "Describe function" prompt should become "Describe function inside foobarbaz.el" . Even then, I think it is insufficient, and uncharted territory, whereas the current approach i= sn't (it's how SLIME/SLY work in a Lisp-based IDE with local namespacing) That _can_ be done, and I think all of Phil's list will eventually funnel down to a few existing function calls. But it nevertheless needs more profound wor= k and a careful understanding of the consequences. In summary, I think that with the exception of a shorthand-aware 'xref-backend-references', something that I am working on (between the drops of the torrential emails, some of them bordering on sheer harassment), this feature is currently consistent from a tools point of view. Again, Shorthands are buffer-local textual indirections to symbols. They are not the symbol. This will never change (not with Shorthands): so inclu= ding shorthands in a list of symbols is misguided. Displaying them in lists of fragments of text to be completed in the buffer is not. That is not to say I don't understand Phil's concerns: I do. I just don't understand the feeling of imminent catastrophe. As I wrote to Phil, I believe much of this anguish is improved if we font-l= ock shorthands specially. That doesn't seem hard at all. If I understand Phil= 's objections from day 1, he is talking about looking at something in an Elisp buffer and being uncertain about the nature of the thing that his eyes are focusing. But if he is _looking_ at it, then we can quench much of that doubt by changing the way it looks. If, on the other hand, he is operating on the thing with some other tool [*= ], not just his eyes, then I think the current tools are already doing the right thing. Jo=C3=A3o [*]: Yes, except when that tool is Grep or similar, but that's for all name= space systems ever invented, so if the concern is still Grep, please open another bug or (yet) another thread. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 10:56:36 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 14:56:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60222 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgRH-0005RL-RH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:56:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46188) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgRG-0005R5-Op for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:56:35 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54550) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgRB-00011j-2c; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:56:29 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3588 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgRA-0005dU-Le; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:56:28 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 17:56:13 +0300 Message-Id: <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:43:03 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:43:03 +0100 > Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > > > You are saying that 3 is easier than 2? Then I think we should do 3, > > as it's better from the user's POV, right? > > No, I don't know that for sure. And I don't think it's better from > the user's POV. > See my reply to Phil. It would mistakenly provide the idea that Shorthands > are some alias to the symbol (in the sense of defvaralias). They are not. > > The user would then be quite surprised to find the list of completions change > behind his back as he changes the place of origin of those C-h o calls. I'm not sure the user will be so much surprised. We could document that. And shorthands aren't supposed to be used massively or willy-nilly, so these surprises are not necessarily as acute as you think. they are certainly not worse than not showing these shorthands at all. > It could only make sense if these interactive prompts were clearly tied to > the buffers they originated from. But they are: we always know which buffer was the current one when the minibuffer is entered. > In summary, I think that with the exception of a shorthand-aware > 'xref-backend-references', > something that I am working on (between the drops of the torrential emails, > some of them bordering on sheer harassment), this feature is currently > consistent > from a tools point of view. You are saying that Help commands should allow asking about shorthands, except if point is on the shorthand? That'd be a grave restriction, I think, worse than "depending on the buffer" which you don't like: here it depends not only on the buffer, but also on position of point in that buffer. > Again, Shorthands are buffer-local textual indirections to symbols. They > are not the symbol. This will never change (not with Shorthands): so including > shorthands in a list of symbols is misguided. Displaying them in > lists of fragments of > text to be completed in the buffer is not. I think this is unnecessarily radical POV, and one that will cause complaints. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 11:23:08 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 15:23:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60307 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgqx-0006CP-Vk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:23:08 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f54.google.com ([209.85.216.54]:44676) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWgqw-0006BE-1j for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:23:06 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f54.google.com with SMTP id oa12-20020a17090b1bcc00b0019f715462a8so3872962pjb.3 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:23:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/eMW403sOgg9aEZkYe7E7+VnoebklHnST2Gwk7mwmxI=; b=RyJ3tinB27PVdxDMIKx9BwgsrMYj4rGKtMVZigG7u2mFdzP2W8lb67k16FmFoP0y2A l3zfWhBB1AnO19G3aFrBTnGZCPg2XXh7Vz74xlKXmDmME3wXy4lB3eysoNmHkgbtK+bd m/iitzMy3zUg2TIxaLWCbIJmkhVQm5kFj57rkVx80skadyaHJ5gI+/4rr/z3K6fTv3EC +UWoCZw0IJZSvR5cQW0Oh1uTBUeNZKiI0e5HDGBoCCRFNWwANAqKbaXo36Vjls4s2cXO ynJc5w0X0M2wwlLwkNeZ2McJurwQ9tSNPs/UCx9VrNkb5s7EkFKhYurDn5gz0sEE9PTl GjuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/eMW403sOgg9aEZkYe7E7+VnoebklHnST2Gwk7mwmxI=; b=0NE7CrsK0XyvFnJBccojNccOPG77iVukb4VQJs7iPWGhU+8aCHCugXnPiUI5aGRg7f yL05bc4Vl94k0oo6VkBJ4WgjeGRrq7JxHjrfut759MRYi3MIM8UnZa6wzXs4i24TRumJ VjSb4Eqpp2erDqXl8oP7RJbxWEZrnmsvvdi0JnK8oelgjyT6OXteTEdTXWly3rm3PV77 nrMKMPONFl17JDNmSPEfNwYNhzWTmHvuNlHb+6fceOJLF0vLuH8oU5IvHJ49QHcwOIDI BQXItZ6HX+yncWgICl7HAMJO7wPTRuQqNE8uXf9bAnk0OC1QHqIrHMYho1cqRcaBQGHd 3XGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vVF8Ui+t7AGg5iERDxdpTFO3sA+BM08ap12vDGE5uDWC03813 52m7Hh3a03+h9NP/dI5Skxolgeulvikk2d27XYM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjl1Dr4w492vrKCks+reU1Fsqp9ThD8GN4CyEt0nlMpL4Vk8JRnU5+znQ+9a2R91B8SAAIYH7AdacORzN7brw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5889:: with SMTP id j9mr26481339pji.91.1633188180156; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:23:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 16:22:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 3:56 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > But they are: we always know which buffer was the current one when the > minibuffer is entered. We "the Emacs code" do. But it's not obvious to a user. The commands that invoke these things are global, remember. I very very often don't kno= w where I pulled C-h o from. And I don't want to know. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. In summary, I wish we can keep the what has been the invariant of Elisp ever since it was created, and which is underlined many times in the manual= : there is only one obarray of symbols. I believe my stance preserves this accurate mental model more than yours. > You are saying that Help commands should allow asking about > shorthands, except if point is on the shorthand? "should NOT allow". That's what I am saying, yes. Any command that operat= es on _symbols_ should not offer shorthands as candidates unless the goal of t= hat command is to directly modify the buffer where those shorthands have meanin= g. So C-h o is in the former group. C-M-i s in the latter. > That'd be a grave > restriction, I think, worse than "depending on the buffer" which you > don't like: here it depends not only on the buffer, but also on > position of point in that buffer. I don't agree, but ultimately it's your call. Notice (maybe watch the .gif again), that what happens when you type C-h o on 's-concat' is that the prompt beco= mes: "Describe symbol (default magnar-string-concat): ... " It does _not_ become: "Describe symbol (default s-concat): ... " Because 's-concat' is _not_ a symbol. > > Again, Shorthands are buffer-local textual indirections to symbols. Th= ey > > are not the symbol. This will never change (not with Shorthands): so i= ncluding > > shorthands in a list of symbols is misguided. Displaying them in > > lists of fragments of > > text to be completed in the buffer is not. > I think this is unnecessarily radical POV, and one that will cause > complaints. It hasn't in SLIME/SLY and package-local-nicknames have existed for quite some time there. What is your opinion on the visually annotating font-lock idea? I think it's useful even if we decide to go with levels 2 or 3 of the above integration (which, as I said, I think we shouldn't, not for now) Jo=C3=A3o From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 11:53:34 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 15:53:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60343 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWhKQ-00072q-7t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:53:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55300) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWhKN-00072d-Ga for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:53:33 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55558) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWhKI-0008JW-2Q; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:53:26 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3132 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWhKG-0008TO-RC; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:53:25 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 18:53:07 +0300 Message-Id: <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 2 Oct 2021 16:22:51 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 16:22:51 +0100 > Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > > > That'd be a grave > > restriction, I think, worse than "depending on the buffer" which you > > don't like: here it depends not only on the buffer, but also on > > position of point in that buffer. > > I don't agree, but ultimately it's your call. Notice (maybe watch the > .gif again), > that what happens when you type C-h o on 's-concat' is that the prompt becomes: > > "Describe symbol (default magnar-string-concat): ... " > > It does _not_ become: > > "Describe symbol (default s-concat): ... " > > Because 's-concat' is _not_ a symbol. I don't see the significance of the difference, from the usability POV. I'd still like to see Help commands support shorthands even if point is not on a shorthand. > What is your opinion on the visually annotating font-lock idea? I think > it's useful even if we decide to go with levels 2 or 3 of the above > integration (which, as I said, I think we shouldn't, not for now) I don't object, and think it could be useful. But I don't think it could supplant the recognition of shorthands in Help commands. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 13:46:36 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 17:46:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60508 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWj5o-0003rU-5S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:46:36 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f177.google.com ([209.85.215.177]:39892) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWj5l-0003rH-Jy for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:46:34 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f177.google.com with SMTP id g184so12520715pgc.6 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:46:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+euF7q9JE1SUzRdLtULFcf5GyAD4hoycLiQUVz/Lfl0=; b=WGqoDKF/dIythVbrGGqBtIjXvR8PRcvxsnSctQqAbmkKwln0+Iyh9HHDmceoQkk0VB CSkLjgtdlbh8fGwZE+D21MV4cPBqEok2ETz+a73rSbw0fV5HOtxwQk5Wzbkp9V5BQ9fY PvT2RE2GTb5CLrhZvZr9lFgnTBo6cdovEGoK4cHc412Pp97mGo3hWlLcqX3e8xaqgHR2 IB4pvvjSWBe8PINMZHDP899pZBkLXBekxRhrQt4GaJqTq9TjsN5qOR3Iw3/mw9eV3iU2 fnwMNDWc+9u8IxEWPhSMvEJ3gkjMHaye5a3aIo0E+3je0trOc4Tfdb12tvRWDRpTv0Jf he8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+euF7q9JE1SUzRdLtULFcf5GyAD4hoycLiQUVz/Lfl0=; b=0SNyCkOCvBEaJ2iAaYpa9UoZnoKmY6r0a6k1EfAD0EjL6yOUN/K/N/lnRPNlEavdgk CT7ZSQZ/mmZCeXimIL6qipywgPiFfaV0EWHpn8gtEA/4l/qFdQ3hlgb/4Mjf0879aN3v nnH1lcY4aCZIFIlROtbf557LCD7NkujDKXwmCQwUZeqP/yOCAZe/pgWTmyZtCTyXq6h5 VqPfvwhj35lggS8g8fcKdtz88AR+BPfX/C7rPazK2EjRnateCUEx9wQcqFwMqKgZNVM7 V9P5Zji0SuF2V9iXP1uJOpDfGyVj4qlrShm9LFK7us2/tvBaV+PEO1s/Fe8KH6nDTNui 4wWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530DeQzdKJkOhyGUJCRKcVVYfc2eSW2/HHobp1q8F7jWPwH+54b6 lvy0FUUN8hDDmYuI6nuC7ryqgmIR5ATUK1F/Qgw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxz229+i2gsvPTiKSUwea4JXwyTYldN5To+Np+5wATUJaRE9ZSPmeChlMRIm3ufmfRCLRZ9dxmtW6UzUdBvq8k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:24d0:b0:448:29d1:518f with SMTP id d16-20020a056a0024d000b0044829d1518fmr17453625pfv.72.1633196787413; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 10:46:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 18:46:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 4:53 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Because 's-concat' is _not_ a symbol. > > I don't see the significance of the difference, from the usability > POV. You don't? Maybe you are still somewhat thinking of shorthands as similar to the products of defvaralias or defalias. s-concat may mean magnar-string-concat in a buffer, and stream-concat in another. In that some other buffer magnar-string-concat may be accessible by the shorthand ms-concat. This is how namespaces work also in other languages. In Elisp in proposals like Andreas Corallo's (https://akrl.sdf.org/lexspaces/lexspaces.html) or if Lars' proposed evolution of shorthands to be somehow local to a specific region to a buffer (like Common Lisp's IN-PACKAGE). > I'd still like to see Help commands support shorthands even if > point is not on a shorthand. Alright, it does need an implementation. Of unforeseen complexity. Certainly the most tricky of all the feature so far, I predict, as it woul= d affect many more commands. I'm not confident I can muster the effort to tackle it for Emacs 28, though I can of course experiment (and maybe it's easier, especially if you help me restrict the feature in scope). If it's ever done, I think at the very least it should be made optional, and that the default should be off. The least of its problems is that, when set to on, it would bring back some form of namespace pollution: finding too "inexplicably" short symbol names when perusing global lists of symbols. What's more, finding them there only sometimes. The more serious of its problems is that it would make the evolution of Shorthands to be local to a region (for example, as I hinted above) much harder. Then, it would raise the bar to adopting _other_ namespacing systems even higher than it already is. > I don't object, and think it could be useful. But I don't think it > could supplant the recognition of shorthands in Help commands. I think it could, by helping the user keep the correct mental model in mind. It could even be made more sophisticated, like temporarily displaying the full names of the symbols at the point of the symbols when C-h f is entered. That would be level of integration 1.5 so to speak (in the scale I gave a while ago). I think we must focus on the problem being presented here, not on the particular solution. _Why_, fundamentally do you want to see shorthands listed in an Help command? What, in layman's terms, are the pieces of information that are missing for you when you _don't_ see them? Is it more like: a. "I wonder what that that 's-thingy' over there is/means or what documentation there is for it.?" Or is it: b. "I wonder what help on s-thingies I have at my disposal here (and yes I know perfectly well what 'here' is)? I'm going to type a prefix, the TAB to find out." Or is it both? Or is it a third thing? The question goes for Phil too, though I think I have a better intuition of what his problem is: I think it's 'a': he fears he won't be able to immedia= tely tell visually what he's looking at, say in one of his windows that has an excerpt of a .el file open. Disregarding the fact that that already happens with things like cl-flet or letf, for example (lexical function definitions), I think it's a legitimate concern (especially coming from someone with likely no experience of namespace systems at all). Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 13:58:46 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 17:58:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60516 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjHa-0004EE-Kf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:58:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41540) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjHY-0004E0-U1 for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:58:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58070) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjHT-0007Ob-EU; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:58:39 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2876 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjHR-0006LJ-Hy; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:58:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 20:58:22 +0300 Message-Id: <83v92f9um9.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 2 Oct 2021 18:46:18 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 18:46:18 +0100 > Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 4:53 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Because 's-concat' is _not_ a symbol. > > > > I don't see the significance of the difference, from the usability > > POV. > > You don't? Maybe you are still somewhat thinking of shorthands > as similar to the products of defvaralias or defalias. s-concat > may mean magnar-string-concat in a buffer, and stream-concat > in another. In that some other buffer magnar-string-concat may > be accessible by the shorthand ms-concat. We are talking at cross-purposes. You are talking about the underlying mechanism; I'm talking about the user's experience. From the UX POV, it is unexpected to be unable to get help about a symbol-like thing the user sees in the buffer. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 14:04:00 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 18:04:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60536 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjMd-0004OO-Oj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:03:59 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169]:33778) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjMb-0004O8-Ib for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:03:58 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f169.google.com with SMTP id a73so9603444pge.0 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wasbvWBWO2grY3nC055ejnxit4iQd7exyc2WJl/kTd4=; b=dxhOsMXJEVULD1kiTGE3yacWKfy4JDLd/hx9m5LbzftH4RE+KN9TDLFDE8j0o5hbEH GiYNljtlPylgQtuFuf2Iqy16bq4uFllpqvwPkV5e60eQMu04DSEPtW4nIP1Oa08KttXv AfltLqxL6PUwn7UqYX11++oLmtXTfrIj579LEiuZloKfZ3c/3DZ5eHayiNIl1wJUZK47 vw3sK1HN4DihEDKtLheEA2Tf2P630MkSCifCXdF+9OidUbRn3Xv6lSJ1Kjm8e3u9CfJq fj/zcxKsDNut+UDAKkFNT/1BvXQCrNeXlYOf9n8GdD1wAchl3ulMG+IdIHHsHEuNfuIl UpmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wasbvWBWO2grY3nC055ejnxit4iQd7exyc2WJl/kTd4=; b=t7mayiWtk63+a3QNKWP7Jek9g29BJg9pEDBK0NexsowfKxFDydPLAbAQhI82v2q6L+ M2R7HTP0JgRk+GEL3OzKnw9UDKz/hOdlBzgskWbPT9oMz2lfbamgCLmuAkAEWA0cpwp/ ppucFDCN9Jty7+fqFtjq6ehKLySBUqqwT3KHxMfxFu5feFJZdqeza8RPFep2qLh4B3Gj xNgqlG+29BW2LZtRjEGCfHAnQNXs3Dm9TV+0BbolBMrGuQjHm2+mCmwq8VqJJVFTbRTy /Lkg2canwtGy8CX0ZHqzJHxvIFCcbgZFNAIR7AdW3ylPK7MBE+DWGvMAIaYtj78wSutN mcuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533pygxmitYVWf41LIqQrVJi6Sf0oatnyjmP+39+2bwg8IY7FgSe t3g3ypbKLRQE5WuK/IuzzIhGfFFnQsjpd7rlhZ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyGa6OGx4o37XNmeNaAPinIjwzf0zToDfC2+MIX6hFdTSAvgzOHtDIk5z0taZXkGeUheqP9282wW/SwbZ05ZAM= X-Received: by 2002:a63:2cce:: with SMTP id s197mr3618043pgs.45.1633197831796; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 11:03:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> <83v92f9um9.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83v92f9um9.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 19:03:43 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 6:58 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We are talking at cross-purposes. You are talking about the > underlying mechanism; I'm talking about the user's experience. From > the UX POV, it is unexpected to be unable to get help about a > symbol-like thing the user sees in the buffer. I'm taking both things into consideration. Does that mean that your answer to my questionnaire is 'a.' or "mostly" 'a.'? a. "I wonder what that that 's-thingy' over there is/means or what documentation there is for it.?" I'm assuming that since you wrote "sees in the buffer". Jo=C3=A3o PS: Much better terminology "symbol-like thing" :-) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 14:29:03 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 18:29:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60545 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjkt-000790-2Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:29:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45056) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjkr-00078W-Ap for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:29:01 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58430) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjkm-0001an-4Z; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:28:56 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4716 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWjkl-0000CW-OO; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 14:28:56 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 21:28:41 +0300 Message-Id: <83sfxj9t7q.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 2 Oct 2021 19:03:43 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> <83v92f9um9.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 19:03:43 +0100 > Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 6:58 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > We are talking at cross-purposes. You are talking about the > > underlying mechanism; I'm talking about the user's experience. From > > the UX POV, it is unexpected to be unable to get help about a > > symbol-like thing the user sees in the buffer. > > I'm taking both things into consideration. Does that mean that > your answer to my questionnaire is 'a.' or "mostly" 'a.'? > > a. "I wonder what that that 's-thingy' over there is/means or what > documentation there is for it.?" > > I'm assuming that since you wrote "sees in the buffer". Yes. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 03 20:14:39 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Oct 2021 00:14:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35120 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBct-0001GD-5z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35976) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBco-0001Fr-WE for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60060) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBci-0001Iv-Op; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:28 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBci-0005E0-Jx; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:28 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= In-Reply-To: <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> (message from =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=C3?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= on Sat, 02 Oct 2021 12:54:13 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:28 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, eliz@gnu.org, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > 2. The shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered are > _not_ in the completions list, but typing one of them interns the > symbol with those shorthands present, so you get the desired result. > This would fix Phil's visually-copy-and-type scenario. Would someone please give an explained example to make this concretely clear? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 03 20:14:44 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Oct 2021 00:14:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35124 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBcx-0001Ga-VE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36014) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBct-0001Fw-31 for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:41 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60068) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBcn-0001MZ-Nq; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:33 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBcl-0005Gp-Uq; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:32 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 02 Oct 2021 18:53:07 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:31 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, joaotavora@gmail.com, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I don't object, and think it could be useful. But I don't think it > could supplant the recognition of shorthands in Help commands. Perhaps it would be useful to make a list of the help commands (I suggest command names rather than their key bindings) in which we are considering doing this. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 03 20:15:03 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Oct 2021 00:15:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35127 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBd9-0001Gz-6k for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:15:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36036) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBd7-0001Gl-Hz for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:54 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60090) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBd0-0001V5-Je; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:48 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBcz-0005M5-MF; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <83v92f9um9.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 02 Oct 2021 20:58:22 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> <834k9zbezg.fsf@gnu.org> <83v92f9um9.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:45 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, joaotavora@gmail.com, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > We are talking at cross-purposes. You are talking about the > underlying mechanism; I'm talking about the user's experience. From > the UX POV, it is unexpected to be unable to get help about a > symbol-like thing the user sees in the buffer. I agree. We should implement doing the right thing with these cases, or at least whatever thing is the most right that we can come up with. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 03 20:15:04 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Oct 2021 00:15:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35133 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBdH-0001IA-Qb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:15:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36096) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBdG-0001H2-F4 for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:15:02 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60110) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBdB-0001d2-8B; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:57 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXBdA-0005PT-Ku; Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:56 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 02 Oct 2021 17:56:13 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:56 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, joaotavora@gmail.com, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Again, Shorthands are buffer-local textual indirections to symbols. They > > are not the symbol. This will never change (not with Shorthands): so including > > shorthands in a list of symbols is misguided. Displaying them in > > lists of fragments of > > text to be completed in the buffer is not. > I think this is unnecessarily radical POV, and one that will cause > complaints. It seems valid to me _in principle_, but can you think of specific cases that might cause complaints? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 04 07:56:13 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Oct 2021 11:56:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35818 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXMZo-0000w8-Pn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 07:56:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37598) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXMZk-0000vs-Hu for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 07:56:11 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49536) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXMZe-0000nt-SX; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 07:56:03 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2298 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mXMZY-0006SA-LM; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 07:55:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 14:55:47 +0300 Message-Id: <83lf396m2k.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:56 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilyfbj9h.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee93bhma.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, joaotavora@gmail.com, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 20:14:56 -0400 > > > > Again, Shorthands are buffer-local textual indirections to symbols. They > > > are not the symbol. This will never change (not with Shorthands): so including > > > shorthands in a list of symbols is misguided. Displaying them in > > > lists of fragments of > > > text to be completed in the buffer is not. > > > I think this is unnecessarily radical POV, and one that will cause > > complaints. > > It seems valid to me _in principle_, but can you think of specific > cases that might cause complaints? I described them: when the user sees an identifier in the buffer, but cannot call up Help for it unless point is on that identifier. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 06 06:45:20 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2021 10:45:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42676 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY4QK-0005SE-51 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 06:45:20 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f43.google.com ([209.85.221.43]:37554) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY4QG-0005S0-Kg for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 06:45:19 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f43.google.com with SMTP id e12so7461544wra.4 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 03:45:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jE1nWPv8g4H/ESI8yerT8NvmR5+taiLq26MMft3EL5s=; b=adLe6IVokIbJorNTeGJtB5sM3Z6mfGsfoA40GJDVbPt6xOR8KpU+2hq6XGrBJwba0/ GbQaxg6qRxBJz1PX1qKEJDKDHyI43pJUR4OtqgXswvbifMyaeAmzqdEWgYnYdhVwZiR3 g7xaGH446j0vDJyYF8RUb0XT3PXUt+k6PC4CIj3Lit4tT7KT61XseyMjYgItV1Gn5J14 PB32N8ggTDgLlBKV0J4I2mEWet3XCw6inzQPo/TCyXcuQ75vn+G3GA8nTjufcyTBiQRD 2Jpd0mxGICfvEqkhLg/qYntrvkW8xwQH6ukuO6odH1B85sPCoN4lMrhGsu5r6vWxL8DA HC+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jE1nWPv8g4H/ESI8yerT8NvmR5+taiLq26MMft3EL5s=; b=7aIUhxkZgWlfY5d4BgzHZ/cGZuodmiqFJMkRGXWyo9MhEdO6FFJ/R0H8AOF6dMxtEJ 28XtR2e5d6naI1P2Gt1tHIGZYQH/9lfs8XanOscJ+w3LiuhPgM3UPp/v7/ptj2KDhZvK 0TTdZrgb8plbifpKS8qB7ShwYzbxHwfy6H2yeLL41V+5rEE3MP3MWKA2EWh2Fr9khlbn gF5VVEgjYAzSznBKn2wBtO7lAt/mhl2F9nluJPk4g6IsTQFQU0FsXIoc2QzRrLof7aqI 4MYmtcskIHn+m+epkxfaPogNl0s8ejXmD6uDr81V4XOJZQ2KuciMiP5xbCA0IZsmiABk wbEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531YHpLhQ3FKxs2dsm/b3NWRLzwcDB/OXXuHGElJ/ipaDpUapREn 3oI9PYYX3LCR5SFsmt47rz4KE3Gqg2E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy/ZAXJYC+1mBAJ94IHuChSreOtXTMJ6ArQGu35qBDTh5RxfnDcZ4ydz9UghRmxjlq7dDwkmg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:a3c9:: with SMTP id m9mr25047712wrb.237.1633517110468; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 03:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug ([87.196.156.235]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o12sm1239738wrw.73.2021.10.06.03.45.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 06 Oct 2021 03:45:09 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 11:45:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora=22's?= message of "Sat, 2 Oct 2021 15:02:41 +0100") Message-ID: <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 1:30 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> > 0. no integration >> > >> > 1. This is the current integration. I.e. when C-h o is pressed on the >> > symbol the global name is discovered and used as the default. This >> > is how SLIME work with CL's namespacing system. SLIME is a very we= ll >> > tested and widely appreciated Common Lisp IDE for Emcas. >> > >> > 2. The shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered are >> > _not_ in the completions list, but typing one of them interns the >> > symbol with those shorthands present, so you get the desired result. >> > This would fix Phil's visually-copy-and-type scenario. >> > >> > 3. The completion list would be augmented with the shorthands from >> > the buffer where the minibuffer was entered from. Hello Eli, I've implemented a variation on 2 based on the later suggestion you gave in emacs-devel: > That is, the user types "C-h o s-foo " and that > replaces s-foo with the expansion, the "real" symbol. Is that > feasible? Yes, it is. is, of course, TAB. Here is a patch for people to try out which I will push in a few days time if there are no objections. Cc-ing completion-style specialist Stefan. Patch just below, Jo=C3=A3o commit f9f64c4b3287d7276c8edeacdecfa9c78194447b Author: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora Date: Wed Oct 6 11:30:29 2021 +0100 Complete shorthands to longhands for symbol-completing tables =20=20=20=20 Shorthands aren't symbols, they're text forms that 'read' into symbols. As such, shorthands aren't candidates in these tables of symbols. But in some situations, if no other candidates match the pattern, we can e.g. complete "x-foo" to "xavier-foo" if the shorthand =20=20=20=20 (("x-" . "xavier-")) =20=20=20=20 is set up in the buffer of origin. =20=20=20=20 bug#50959 =20=20=20=20 * lisp/help-fns.el (help--symbol-completion-table): Report `symbol-help' category. =20=20=20=20 * lisp/minibuffer.el (completion-styles-alist): New 'shorthand' style. (completion-category-defaults): Link 'symbol-help' category with 'shorthand' style. (minibuffer--original-buffer): New variable. (completing-read-default): Setup minibuffer--original-buffer. (completion-shorthand-try-completion) (completion-shorthand-all-completions): New helpers. diff --git a/lisp/help-fns.el b/lisp/help-fns.el index 6be5cd4a50..03bbc979a9 100644 --- a/lisp/help-fns.el +++ b/lisp/help-fns.el @@ -176,8 +176,11 @@ help--symbol-completion-table-affixation completions)) =20 (defun help--symbol-completion-table (string pred action) - (if (and completions-detailed (eq action 'metadata)) - '(metadata (affixation-function . help--symbol-completion-table-affi= xation)) + (if (eq action 'metadata) + `(metadata + ,@(when completions-detailed + '((affixation-function . help--symbol-completion-table-affixat= ion))) + (category . symbol-help)) (when help-enable-completion-autoload (let ((prefixes (radix-tree-prefixes (help-definition-prefixes) stri= ng))) (help--load-prefixes prefixes))) diff --git a/lisp/minibuffer.el b/lisp/minibuffer.el index 1e1a6f852e..48859585bc 100644 --- a/lisp/minibuffer.el +++ b/lisp/minibuffer.el @@ -943,7 +943,12 @@ completion-styles-alist completion-initials-try-completion completion-initials-all-completions "Completion of acronyms and initialisms. E.g. can complete M-x lch to list-command-history -and C-x C-f ~/sew to ~/src/emacs/work.")) +and C-x C-f ~/sew to ~/src/emacs/work.") + (shorthand + completion-shorthand-try-completion completion-shorthand-all-completi= ons + "Completion of symbol shorthands setup in `read-symbol-shorthands'. +E.g. can complete \"x-foo\" to \"xavier-foo\" if the shorthand +((\"x-\" . \"xavier-\")) is set up in the buffer of origin.")) "List of available completion styles. Each element has the form (NAME TRY-COMPLETION ALL-COMPLETIONS DOC): where NAME is the name that should be used in `completion-styles', @@ -990,7 +995,8 @@ completion-category-defaults ;; e.g. one that does not anchor to bos. (project-file (styles . (substring))) (xref-location (styles . (substring))) - (info-menu (styles . (basic substring)))) + (info-menu (styles . (basic substring))) + (symbol-help (styles . (basic shorthand substring)))) "Default settings for specific completion categories. Each entry has the shape (CATEGORY . ALIST) where ALIST is an association list that can specify properties such as: @@ -1618,6 +1624,9 @@ minibuffer-confirm-exit-commands (defvar minibuffer--require-match nil "Value of REQUIRE-MATCH passed to `completing-read'.") =20 +(defvar minibuffer--original-buffer nil + "Buffer that was current when `completing-read' was called.") + (defun minibuffer-complete-and-exit () "Exit if the minibuffer contains a valid completion. Otherwise, try to complete the minibuffer contents. If @@ -4080,6 +4089,40 @@ completion-initials-try-completion (let ((newstr (completion-initials-expand string table pred))) (when newstr (completion-pcm-try-completion newstr table pred (length newstr))))) + +;; Shorthand completion +;; +;; Iff there is a (("x-" . "string-library-")) shorthand setup and +;; string-library-foo is in candidates, complete x-foo to it. + +(defun completion-shorthand-try-completion (string table pred point) + "Try completion with `read-symbol-shorthands' of original buffer." + (cl-loop with expanded + for (short . long) in + (with-current-buffer minibuffer--original-buffer + read-symbol-shorthands) + for probe =3D + (and (> point (length short)) + (string-prefix-p short string) + (try-completion (setq expanded + (concat long + (substring + string + (length short)))) + table pred)) + when probe + do (message "Shorthand expansion") + and return (cons expanded (max (length long) + (+ (- point (length short)) + (length long)))))) + +(defun completion-shorthand-all-completions (string table pred _point) + ;; no-op: For now, we don't want shorthands to list all the possible + ;; locally active longhands. For the completion categories where + ;; this style is active, it could hide other more interesting + ;; matches from subsequent styles. + nil) + (defvar completing-read-function #'completing-read-default "The function called by `completing-read' to do its work. @@ -4111,6 +4154,7 @@ completing-read-default ;; in minibuffer-local-filename-completion-map can ;; override bindings in base-keymap. base-keymap))) + (buffer (current-buffer)) (result (minibuffer-with-setup-hook (lambda () @@ -4119,7 +4163,8 @@ completing-read-default ;; FIXME: Remove/rename this var, see the next one. (setq-local minibuffer-completion-confirm (unless (eq require-match t) require-match)) - (setq-local minibuffer--require-match require-match)) + (setq-local minibuffer--require-match require-match) + (setq-local minibuffer--original-buffer buffer)) (read-from-minibuffer prompt initial-input keymap nil hist def inherit-input-method)))) (when (and (equal result "") def) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 06 08:19:18 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2021 12:19:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42873 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY5tG-00063t-43 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:19:18 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:34286) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY5tC-00063e-Ix for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:19:17 -0400 Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 0D7DA1004A5; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 9E02D100468; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:19:07 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1633522747; bh=OUqXw8q47BVAemrjaCIHCbdROx7zmmZnJxeKa+458Dk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=hka+PTJfjY5bPhrjbVnsU2IgSS1dqF55HRuvdOge0sHXqmJoCcSD9Up08vRQW5pbL eEKd77Sd/EK408nu9Qx9Zj72eDTAX9RykhV8lfWDPogxbi6M0BaMrfU3jvThxn4r0x PoNrcFEhHQYkvmfaFnOg26HTgMp7sQAqK7h73dOqhmUtX3Blbna13sBXiqnOlHbQCE wzjyEwxwzw6Dpw5yBionukfypboyjlzvHizhj8Y1asKe+o+DcWzzVWTwtxs3gI8jQv cqjsXQcHU9RNB9PBYHUujz4J+BV5/NNLYvWrcNMa/mCRQJcL+Rd6Re480UJW56mbkJ h8y7brJ/sruTQ== Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.241.23]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5FD4B1202FC; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:19:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?windows-1252?B?Sm/jbyBU4XZvcmE=?= Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:19:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Jo=E3o_T?= =?windows-1252?Q?=E1vora=22's?= message of "Wed, 06 Oct 2021 11:45:11 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.056 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Yes, it is. is, of course, TAB. Here is a patch > for people to try out which I will push in a few days time if there are > no objections. Cc-ing completion-style specialist Stefan. Implementing it as a completion style seems wrong. Why not just tweak the completion table? Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 06 08:34:42 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2021 12:34:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42882 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY685-0006SM-Gp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:34:42 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f170.google.com ([209.85.215.170]:36462) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY683-0006Rf-4u for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:34:36 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f170.google.com with SMTP id 75so2359458pga.3 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 05:34:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=G81LMKGZcCGwv1ZVPMwdAVRgO56qQbGvHMip+In6hkw=; b=Ux27bnxNdp/U6IcYRk0VNNhwSyihlbFZ93CD5ghpC/VuSsN7sa/epkv+XvlV1XZVhE 2c7hExKjZ7q5SmDMC/aJxxRkDbonNgpp5zxCwsZPeFXa9KoN8M02ZFlHZLaKAsM9takV AQ1Nv9EgkHZpIVCEOuOP0TWZU3tFac8Fs7el8m5CeW91ITXJx0aYOX6FU6qdr6dY5yV3 Ie9vELh117C1IYAK9rjRp714N/QKIE4WPAagvt1/ZdWgS1OhsiP512z61yaxRKYVL2Mx 1QndS+QXWwfUH2gaH+tAP0OXyYn/HnscxTuW+3+ocMHKOl0q90UewlDXur5kcClPaJt9 ouow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G81LMKGZcCGwv1ZVPMwdAVRgO56qQbGvHMip+In6hkw=; b=m+frF7Sj9j0CWN2amnxp24XMhAdkrG6inGiiBheOiRTFuCXwgeqklcvU1zXKGBJ0DD N0szxwZCybPu1T+8q49yTDzELsTdRm1mfl+xegczBDX3qlfPKYe9AZtjMZ8lUATowp/w fg7j5ZJFjK7dfSedJUGCDbWbeX9YtUZkf8ZaS88ydeXDKbYqf4y8x6ZZSaAZqW+3nYtz VejL2NgtI6fWewvvPQcb1X+bC/n64+pZ/qqvL7H98olBEWzwR9jYXLaAZ/mYH4JXZwr9 Z3audWxqgiT1DJ0nWIl0VZdDEapMeJanPX9zrulWF7vU1ty4aXbNcpmCrGqgIo2BbsyD BDFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5327LMzQ05l3ZZEjit2RSDYvUSgqUGzWFog3KIGdChAtxMfDdDMp gHDoQEgVbosu4VpF6u+W50stPg//vLESRHCrYZY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzmewixeOlk7RGObKRFP07yQiVeUwfVkdK0RRRS3Hpy0czWMZXAv+0u26KjDMbSGP/0QdRMm5gyad4PUFOsqIs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:24d0:b0:448:29d1:518f with SMTP id d16-20020a056a0024d000b0044829d1518fmr37426623pfv.72.1633523669142; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 05:34:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 13:34:21 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000810a605cdae5e5d" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000000810a605cdae5e5d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:19 PM Stefan Monnier wrote: > > Yes, it is. is, of course, TAB. Here is a patch > > for people to try out which I will push in a few days time if there are > > no objections. Cc-ing completion-style specialist Stefan. > > Implementing it as a completion style seems wrong. > What is "it"? "It" =3D=3D=3D "Eli's suggestion"? > Why not just tweak the completion table? What tweak do you suggest? The explicit point in this patch was _not_ to list shorthands as completions, for the reasons that I gave many times already and that led to Eli's suggestion. If you can implement that without a completion style that's fine (but it seems it's the nicest way). Jo=C3=A3o --0000000000000810a605cdae5e5d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:19 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
=
> Yes, it is.=C2=A0 &l= t;SOME KEY SEQUENCE> is, of course, TAB.=C2=A0 Here is a patch
> for people to try out which I will push in a few days time if there ar= e
> no objections.=C2=A0 Cc-ing completion-style specialist Stefan.

Implementing it as a completion style seems wrong.
What is "it"? "It" =3D=3D=3D "Eli'= s suggestion"?
=C2=A0
Why not just tweak the completion table?

What tweak do you suggest? The explicit point in this patch
<= div>was _not_ to list shorthands as completions, for the reasons
= that I gave many times already and that led to Eli's suggestion.
<= div>If you can implement that without a completion style that's fine
(but it seems it's the nicest way).

Jo=C3=A3o
--0000000000000810a605cdae5e5d-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 06 08:50:35 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2021 12:50:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42923 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY6NX-0006t3-Cs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:50:35 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:37259) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY6NU-0006sl-5c for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:50:34 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 3C4084406E2; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 0C9614406D5; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:50:25 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1633524625; bh=Ana4CPJTDl7nLCLWqKOkTmahq2wajZmsB6X3mtNBbyI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=pCMZdySJbIJ11gyiPIA921fEQqxpE4gU2dFgK9VOtOs1Scaf5RVmdSu3qhwT2lwQm KyQGAYGACqh8VbWSFS5TYZki07tcnRqiyHB78QtYsTcLwRr+Puf3Npl3C77p6+Bz+5 LZivXiAmPzh7I1dX1LU4WIQuZq6awZs1n3y16TFxtkZetT4bTCxX+vcOgtK206yv/r lVVNdAztFcQye2xavOnFVxMrmmGQEjFa+eHCi2lpNIUodWac6qIMUIvLSR95gpNpxP 9qnXhsQLRWs8dFx4LQ8z2nDJxYQc4MVztu8fAEOtVVThMNXuqac9lskVZ4dKFh/zXG xw8k6G64yXonw== Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.241.23]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B57FD1202F4; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:50:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?windows-1252?B?Sm/jbyBU4XZvcmE=?= Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:50:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Jo=E3o_T=E1vora=22's?= message of "Wed, 6 Oct 2021 13:34:21 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.037 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> > Yes, it is. is, of course, TAB. Here is a patch >> > for people to try out which I will push in a few days time if there are >> > no objections. Cc-ing completion-style specialist Stefan. >> Implementing it as a completion style seems wrong. > What is "it"? "It" === "Eli's suggestion"? "it" == "making C-x o's completion pay attention to shorthands". Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 06 08:53:30 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2021 12:53:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42932 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY6QM-0006xk-4I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:53:30 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f48.google.com ([209.85.216.48]:50842) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mY6QG-0006xT-Jw for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 08:53:26 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f48.google.com with SMTP id k23so2168467pji.0 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 05:53:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vKY8wftp935cMJhv7arWzQRz40zWiiV84/GzummPWM0=; b=CB8EjZSamsoqW1kOUwbHPl/GenxuDB1zAd9LmqHGo8GbFF4E82l+Uv54IPtabF2/8B m696E1e5HPIKa7kke/fbWyOJKNDq2IFKOaYXeTuozKwpCjV9DfSIAY9ydVY9r6K0jp4G L438vPZYQTAhoaIcOK1eD7/ZxMIEzbUz1XQx6zCqAbA97m7bel9dKu9a93LqjL3xi+ml sUjMiqRw+EtYSnrVDwOYakfIlMsvmiMZu7zs0ARFZ8c0UlRWleIxi8WY/S9kxKpWzlTo AS3KVZHK3p05Xayp/KgIIO7iO5B0zf6p3TXlOwp7AtrBP9NWshMIXYb3nT/jN/sUsZ8B YatA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vKY8wftp935cMJhv7arWzQRz40zWiiV84/GzummPWM0=; b=Pmx2KcEbtQEEcEwBw3GHqWxHJNuD3HySJDSwSEMxwdMMpx/Ag85xD+6QesYl0OPt/1 jtk3GsjOVG8/AOnDeyZ8nYXNabo6RkvfkEy8/ReEhNt+lnAVVoFvgzbM14W/iVcTnvM3 nKYthvsXsgYVHbsNBmVED32Wur+CBwr3mCfAqlwXt4xE9WwiIaU97ZzZMn36kmwk2YsB EhLzIJeZdQezu8J4a1PwEacziU+4aB/kYqnvgc2hHFOgLoc4/X3rJFSsHUjjsR8Nx2dZ q1VZO4D2Kpbd6kECYpF6t51Rv+n9IiUQORoCodMGaUUhm2lv9lBIg6vzwFjUqWFnTkt+ yHEg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hyrwGNKuB3oaq1mb/fn09mQjxWs3jNsSnMpnY7evDgs7AQ9cv YTf8v/t9EJkq2tQopkPefRQgTe09cKtzlRlOF/U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyM8XPBMfr3Gxm/zUDE0IgHLgxrnNCl91Ud/Etnmdt2gxCuMXTqIaqgOm76lc3tJmuw9wX+DxrP6lzwgOpm/2E= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5a86:: with SMTP id n6mr10839228pji.3.1633524798577; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 05:53:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 13:53:10 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059e1f605cdaea1c7" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --00000000000059e1f605cdaea1c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:50 PM Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> > Yes, it is. is, of course, TAB. Here is a patc= h > >> > for people to try out which I will push in a few days time if there > are > >> > no objections. Cc-ing completion-style specialist Stefan. > >> Implementing it as a completion style seems wrong. > > What is "it"? "It" =3D=3D=3D "Eli's suggestion"? > > "it" =3D=3D "making C-x o's completion pay attention to shorthands". In this thread, we've described many ways how that can be done. C-x o already "pays attention" to them, from day one, but that attention is somehow deemed insufficient. So you'll have to be clearer about what you're suggesting exactly, i.e., "what happens when". Jo=C3=A3o --00000000000059e1f605cdaea1c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:50 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
=
>> > Yes, it is.= =C2=A0 <SOME KEY SEQUENCE> is, of course, TAB.=C2=A0 Here is a patch<= br> >> > for people to try out which I will push in a few days time if= there are
>> > no objections.=C2=A0 Cc-ing completion-style specialist Stefa= n.
>> Implementing it as a completion style seems wrong.
> What is "it"? "It" =3D=3D=3D "Eli's sugge= stion"?

"it" =3D=3D "making C-x o's completion pay attention to = shorthands".

In this thread, we've= described many ways how that can be done.
C-x o already "pa= ys attention" to them, from day one, but that attention
is s= omehow deemed insufficient.=C2=A0 So you'll have to be clearer about
what you're suggesting exactly, i.e., "what happens when&q= uot;.

Jo=C3=A3o
--00000000000059e1f605cdaea1c7-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 06 15:59:18 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2021 19:59:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45541 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mYD4P-0003zh-QC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 15:59:17 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:34383) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mYD4M-0003zS-09 for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 15:59:16 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 6EA8680488; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 15:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 0F0378040B; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 15:59:07 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1633550347; bh=WT0FhE/9in2yHpH/V0uoyxpNZW3so8GmYqs20sSOthE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=fuP1XPavVCKb9OUsInq5YDx3Frwyn5vRrf2XOBrxoCUcqWO6UvSMA+fv2OaDFogGW IA7F0ufvl6SlP4FkwkR3t3fKs5jAZ20Sdxnkh8Em3PTLVowVpfFYwMPRhwcALRrEpi kM9X4DXVpbj3Py0kEBRoHbTg5+WAnOu/cWe1x/Kn32Hy5tVDXdCJQq3FpgNezVL+H1 Gj55IOqHPJ4cFTMNtJt75f8tsaLzgdsDW9mSkNx4ecrS3h+Vopz49kyYgIv11HzHYC BxWNWUVNjWDwPvm382Tfj+moEyNIpGOOny7IBDddViuajE+IfZr1N6EsDsdASmaea9 ULZWyI7VJ85qw== Received: from pastel (unknown [45.72.241.23]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CB79F120257; Wed, 6 Oct 2021 15:59:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: =?windows-1252?B?Sm/jbyBU4XZvcmE=?= Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2021 15:59:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Jo=E3o_T=E1vora=22's?= message of "Wed, 6 Oct 2021 13:53:10 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.064 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > In this thread, we've described many ways how that can be done. > C-x o already "pays attention" to them, from day one, but that attention > is somehow deemed insufficient. So you'll have to be clearer about > what you're suggesting exactly, i.e., "what happens when". As an ELisp programmer, I'd want (and expect) that if I can successfully use `st-bar` and `st-foo` in the current buffer, I will see them in the possible completions at least when I complete `st-` and ideally in other cases (e.g. it would be good for completion of `sba` to take `st-bar` into account if `flex` completion style). Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 06 16:19:34 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2021 20:19:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45552 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mYDO2-0004Vx-1M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 16:19:34 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f52.google.com ([209.85.216.52]:39899) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mYDO0-0004Vl-7r for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 16:19:32 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f52.google.com with SMTP id ls18-20020a17090b351200b001a00250584aso4788765pjb.4 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:19:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qyfbiRqmbvj6m6W6M3RprPYCqkWqPmiWBvlanGXEOoo=; b=Lv14ERPj3QYVKkff47yLucBj+e/quCcTVknsfiDP1m9sTrC1TgN88LEyVgY90pGd9e O+uiJbLtvHTBCc4hCTMyNoQ9bOJkBg3rOZ56AVPfR+pcq/JOUQ/Q6R3xS6qMW8OyVzpu SZWtVRsWYRRH5J6nRSaPOB7jCmAxpg90Cfxez9bV9rp6iZcvuKATh3UF0nGBXOhMh8VQ LCUyILBaXAE5WR1J0CvhRUdKzxYBZcuMwGWW5V0e3i8PjWAfvPimMeid7NByOBWvWK8J lE/WBS0GTGNEL9j3yZz19uail7IyxaAsYBSJ+GJ0/FAUoH907CglG8oALxM2pEcZeSpt 6Dsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qyfbiRqmbvj6m6W6M3RprPYCqkWqPmiWBvlanGXEOoo=; b=XTZrbu4WwHhWKmLtGL+dwYCkNp5Hyu5wQYpV5DABOOPcHdUT8MFPZuHxduZBm+ZbCv rO64sAbjdtrZOqW6WiA24DLgG9qsObAD8aRgvoUcRnmeln+/RJM5zgkE8NXiXjQt5oNo kwWVT6fSzz6IIaRzGBlaU/60t6BttzAaXamu3IZEHrbJdiyQ66Fc3GfQGC0fH2Rha7/z 0TJWfDNOcJF4dHvsF+qhQD6AJkSu0jwUaNAbyMuD+npev5ORo9ZjAcKUCh+hMAavCiYf a10do+hN+PQPsJIuy6rKKQdm+8DZEzdWzrpal/Wa4T/214nxWYTiW2+pICmjYMwaQcdh aHKw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5328Sms2AZZu0iVP41ADZQSg1YfmbjYaU7daSmIKNTbqpGKtiSWS TCQ2hZirchOg0iywl+57choMoCR/T60Z/SIjgeo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynL5VV48ol0dSUJB9zF+eLH59QW65fgJFAyn/Sgenf3IBnQ2QLeEYDorVrHdN0PiWssUL2w4zmkHHGNXuFDvU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a60e:: with SMTP id c14mr868764pjq.70.1633551566227; Wed, 06 Oct 2021 13:19:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 21:19:17 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d3cd8905cdb4dc71" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , Eli Zaretskii , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000d3cd8905cdb4dc71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 8:59 PM Stefan Monnier wrote: > > In this thread, we've described many ways how that can be done. > > C-x o already "pays attention" to them, from day one, but that attentio= n > > is somehow deemed insufficient. So you'll have to be clearer about > > what you're suggesting exactly, i.e., "what happens when". > > As an ELisp programmer, I'd want (and expect) that if I can successfully > use `st-bar` and `st-foo` in the current buffer, I will see them in the > possible completions at least when I complete `st-` and ideally in other > cases (e.g. it would be good for completion of `sba` to take `st-bar` > into account if `flex` completion style). > 1) If by "use in the current buffer" you mean "insert in the current buffer= " then your wish makes full sense to me and is already granted, fully, via C-M-i. 2) If you're talking about querying the single global database of symbols using M-x describe-symbols, then you must address symbols by their full name, as you have always done. It's easy to do so: 2a) by placing point under the form of interest. If it happens to be shorthand it will automatically be picked up. Shorthands are now visually highlighte= d as such. 2b) by typing the shorthands as such and typing TAB to complete them to the full symbol name. This is only if you enter the query interface from the buffer where the shorthands exist. I think this is more than sufficient. I've worked for years and years with a CL system that only does 1) and 2a). I've worked side-by-side with people using it. I even forked and maintained such a system. I've never seen requests or complaints for anything more in this regard. Sure, we are all different and some of us are more demanding, and that's a good thing, but it's a fact that the vast majority of Emacs users haven't used a namespacing system in Elisp for a long time, possibly ever. Shouldn't we give this first conservative approach a shot first? Jo=C3=A3o --000000000000d3cd8905cdb4dc71 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 8:59 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> In this thread, = we've described many ways how that can be done.
> C-x o already "pays attention" to them, from day one, but th= at attention
> is somehow deemed insufficient.=C2=A0 So you'll have to be clearer= about
> what you're suggesting exactly, i.e., "what happens when"= ;.

As an ELisp programmer, I'd want (and expect) that if I can successfull= y
use `st-bar` and `st-foo` in the current buffer, I will see them in the
possible completions at least when I complete `st-` and ideally in other cases (e.g. it would be good for completion of `sba` to take `st-bar`
into account if `flex` completion style).

1) If by "use in the current buffer" you mean "insert in = the current buffer"
then your wish makes full sense to me an= d is already granted, fully, via C-M-i.

2) If = you're talking about querying the single global database of symbols
using M-x describe-symbols, then you must address symbols by their
full name, as you have always done. It's easy to do so:
<= div>
2a) by placing point under the form of interest.=C2=A0 I= f it happens to be shorthand
it will automatically be picked up.= =C2=A0 Shorthands are now visually highlighted
as such.
=

2b) by typing the shorthands as such and typing TAB to = complete them to
the full symbol name.=C2=A0 This is only if you = enter the query interface from
the buffer where the shorthands ex= ist.

I think this is more than sufficient. I'v= e worked for years and years with
a CL system that only does 1) a= nd 2a). I've worked side-by-side with
people using it. I= even forked and maintained such a system.=C2=A0 I've never
<= div>seen requests or complaints for anything more in this regard.=C2=A0 Sur= e, we
are all different and some of us are more demanding, a= nd that's a good
thing, but it's a fact that the vast ma= jority of Emacs users haven't used
a namespacing system = in Elisp for a long time, possibly ever.=C2=A0 Shouldn't
we g= ive this first=C2=A0 conservative approach a shot first?
Jo=C3=A3o
--000000000000d3cd8905cdb4dc71-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 10 06:46:20 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Oct 2021 10:46:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54532 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mZWLU-0004BL-4h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:46:20 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f52.google.com ([209.85.221.52]:44999) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mZWLQ-0004B3-5p for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:46:19 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f52.google.com with SMTP id e3so11948408wrc.11 for <50959@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:46:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fxn6TEuh/t8sFzIhjpDyYNNzu4XrZaofuXxu0Y64Zb8=; b=SaZIN4RjvWK5uLlOJOaH4M1vlr6ed95Go5bMhMWUHV9FB747HebxUQSWL5eYrPFxJJ hWRIXajmG7MykLqDQAZEpWiCqBW6o3baV5tmRJ8VqnOjvmhwiztfEmCWGF7HPSTWPbQ9 /medqe1fkPdNpxVxyRlowbg18DSeDiGuaTLPJuDRgahHDbgIfJ0MblEOqtjSD2+W4B2X g8ySiq4am5J56y9oHKRM0XAMlj/fxrqlnvZFVXDP+Beknrc1/PR7lrNYSLHkWSL6aD3S QtbVE8u/5KTMzYxLbItpOn9ccGSFHjtCQvg3Gq958D1dxg547TukIo2Uza939FwHs+jS LtIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fxn6TEuh/t8sFzIhjpDyYNNzu4XrZaofuXxu0Y64Zb8=; b=WXeN1yu5RJmk5df0v6NW81Gjy3yUH4IioXzMd8qtXPKoAuoDRY9kJLYKT15/3ToYkK Lz7MBjcoR4dnqUP2hxgBqjVvrrynYsiqHleSztYFp172wXPaFu+T9lRTpef9s9bVpzXM w17V+UIgmlfnIcmuasUaYFGwng7d5UNRKOabDcA752J+Swn9x8eYwJxBuJF1plLLMESW tYxaxnp2Uk5uy5Jx323aTTLrZV3E/oqfbVB6wWRITp6mmhVJ//lcbkwDAHLwONqIHWWG fFMY/bSzbNBi2f2GrTMicMQ2LXSI5ffgHmBozLZOdRBewjHl+666Vw06VHZfXnobdnzG tmRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5337nWGPnBpNssBsGUC0gp5JYo2Cg/VEp676RuiB0hX3Ywq4IMMY UXuF0VfCxjsKtKgV2doII60= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJycib9amtB6k5A8q/2eHoe+ZoS6XHFaMXtgFlKYdNnK7ZUVL1OrcHqt7UwoJAHAjBUEeTlXXw== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:9d97:: with SMTP id g145mr14551985wme.78.1633862770109; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (a83-132-196-192.cpe.netcabo.pt. [83.132.196.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v23sm4615433wmj.4.2021.10.10.03.46.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:46:09 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:46:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> (=?utf-8?Q?=22Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1?= =?utf-8?Q?vora=22's?= message of "Wed, 06 Oct 2021 11:45:11 +0100") Message-ID: <877del6tu4.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > >> On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 1:30 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >>> > 0. no integration >>> > >>> > 1. This is the current integration. I.e. when C-h o is pressed on the >>> > symbol the global name is discovered and used as the default. This >>> > is how SLIME work with CL's namespacing system. SLIME is a very w= ell >>> > tested and widely appreciated Common Lisp IDE for Emcas. >>> > >>> > 2. The shorthands from the buffer where the minibuffer was entered are >>> > _not_ in the completions list, but typing one of them interns the >>> > symbol with those shorthands present, so you get the desired resul= t. >>> > This would fix Phil's visually-copy-and-type scenario. >>> > >>> > 3. The completion list would be augmented with the shorthands from >>> > the buffer where the minibuffer was entered from. > > Hello Eli, > > I've implemented a variation on 2 based on the later suggestion you > gave in emacs-devel: > >> That is, the user types "C-h o s-foo " and that >> replaces s-foo with the expansion, the "real" symbol. Is that >> feasible? > > Yes, it is. is, of course, TAB. Here is a patch > for people to try out which I will push in a few days time if there are > no objections. Cc-ing completion-style specialist Stefan. > > Patch just below, I've stashed this patch in branch scratch/bug-50959-fix. The reason is Stefan's strong objections to it. IIUC, Stefan, who originally designed the completion-style mechanism would seem to favour a scheme where a new completion table category 'symbol' is linked to a new 'abbrev' style (instead of a 'shorthand' style). The 'abbrev' style would then query the table for an appropriate source of abbreviations, which, in the case of table of the 'symbol' category, would be extracted from 'read-symbol-shorthands'. Stefan do you confirm this? If so, the end result would be the same and a functional level, and Phil's original request would be satisfied. I don't strongly object to the above more complex approach, but I don't have much time right now to implement those extra indirections either (not that they're rocket science, but they need at least good formats, good names, good docstrings, etc.), so I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out what to do here. Jo=C3=A3o From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 10 07:08:27 2021 Received: (at 50959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Oct 2021 11:08:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54546 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mZWgt-0004mg-Nu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 07:08:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56968) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mZWgs-0004mT-7G for 50959@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 07:08:26 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49888) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mZWgm-00029P-V4; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 07:08:20 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1359 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mZWgg-0004vy-Kq; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 07:08:15 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:08:01 +0300 Message-Id: <835yu5rvce.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: <877del6tu4.fsf@gmail.com> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28g?= =?utf-8?B?VMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:46:11 +0100) Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> <877del6tu4.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959 Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan > Monnier , rms@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:46:11 +0100 > > I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out what to do here. I already did, and that's why I asked you to install that change. With it on a scratch branch, the problem is without any solution whatsoever. This is bad for users, IMNSHO. And that is all I have to say on this matter. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 10 09:39:12 2021 Received: (at 50959-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Oct 2021 13:39:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54602 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mZZ2m-0004Gr-Fk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 09:39:12 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f43.google.com ([209.85.221.43]:43911) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mZZ2h-0004GZ-Mk for 50959-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 09:39:11 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f43.google.com with SMTP id r7so46498716wrc.10 for <50959-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:39:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NAgUDWhNokqX3Y12bPD5uwht6F2yncNFX4dl+Bept84=; b=E99axj+0CE7aMWkpCGZYSqEfhTxVOu45SxNU9bmoS0qDECoNWFvDmiwg4Jgh9Zt1u+ VHgMZP/NvXpCO+azOEi9ANc/0BAX2NexD9PU/Tb8okXtLubERrLLWLkLVt8pCtWgSQlb qaHDeWYtnJT8OCOG1aCGKZ6qADnpH2XfWB9TLaoS/0d5LZjlHwMYyDCZQus4QrqvpfWU dmgcBFYZ9NKPA2jr8hAf8lMWfqSXeju08lztl/I/HwcAyU0jpALMal5PbKumefY9vXUY eefGzvQOdAEWZyCVM7pMZFpKyBTTOPit7Bpl3YfVLUlAXrgBzxhTcn5dr9UGG3RaXymI ptxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NAgUDWhNokqX3Y12bPD5uwht6F2yncNFX4dl+Bept84=; b=c8CWP2b2OcOSQAvo0hkSUJDOwoDZL/qpFfn1dx7m4bXtmPUeGItNq5/aJ+9Xpcf+jC WLcBirQgQeY574b3VqhdG1Sgz7wlr7lxoqOa6MpHW1SeR059GqM7ppNcuG3lR5v1xgYr fX9DRjrY4ac8ogKItCRKYE3cDdvx3FJ6qAZIBz/U8GT5YZiOK+Il1liWaVcnf2i5yoPR eOh3cxJCtpqxdIJq107e3+Fkl1q1a0+ShAlsbIB/aBdngU6rOBowL1eYpJw6AUUZ6bd7 MDXJrmyRojjtpjXWg8XySA2XMcUm/EVDcaWlnbzg+Ev2wVVDrr/I++Uge6dR+xqsEvI4 A8xQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530IVZSfovCPJYyig9j0Cnqsr6gvrOzH3aOZ8Taq4QwKiNaBNNVm QC8CippQvgFTXNLIwXi0nck= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzG3qLO0MtqYaxP5wV0oQVtY3MMpubO6QqFIOrqS5QIdjzy+SHTBqnsyIt/cynq2EsLHOVq6w== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6dad:: with SMTP id u13mr1171592wrs.370.1633873141722; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (a83-132-196-192.cpe.netcabo.pt. [83.132.196.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j4sm5092092wrt.67.2021.10.10.06.39.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:39:01 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> <877del6tu4.fsf@gmail.com> <835yu5rvce.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:39:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <835yu5rvce.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:08:01 +0300") Message-ID: <8735p96lu0.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959-done Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org, 50959-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora >> Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan >> Monnier , rms@gnu.org >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:46:11 +0100 >>=20 >> I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out what to do here. > > I already did, and that's why I asked you to install that change. > And that is all I have to say on this matter. Done. When someone strongly objects, I always seek confirmation from the head maintainer before overriding them. Also marking bug done. If someone disagrees or finds bugs, let me know. Jo=C3=A3o From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 10 10:23:58 2021 Received: (at 50959-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Oct 2021 14:23:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55640 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mZZk6-0005ZR-Kx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:23:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54042) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mZZk4-0005ZF-W6 for 50959-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:23:57 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54296) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mZZjz-0000ws-Iv; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:23:51 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1705 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mZZjt-0002gN-Aj; Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:23:45 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 17:23:32 +0300 Message-Id: <83zgrhq7q3.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= In-Reply-To: <8735p96lu0.fsf@gmail.com> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28g?= =?utf-8?B?VMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:39:03 +0100) Subject: Re: [PATCH] Re: bug#50959: 28.0.50; Shorthand symbols are unknown to Emacs References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> <837devdcz0.fsf@gnu.org> <93767e0236e7e85d27186293e38d3d25@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <8335pjd974.fsf@gnu.org> <87v92f3d15.fsf@gmail.com> <83y27bbs4d.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtnr3chk.fsf@gmail.com> <8735pj3amy.fsf@gmail.com> <83r1d3boeh.fsf@gnu.org> <874k9uwhxk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> <877del6tu4.fsf@gmail.com> <835yu5rvce.fsf@gnu.org> <8735p96lu0.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50959-done Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org, 50959-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora > Cc: psainty@orcon.net.nz, 50959-done@debbugs.gnu.org, > monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 14:39:03 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: João Távora > >> Cc: Phil Sainty , 50959@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan > >> Monnier , rms@gnu.org > >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:46:11 +0100 > >> > >> I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out what to do here. > > > > I already did, and that's why I asked you to install that change. > > And that is all I have to say on this matter. > > Done. When someone strongly objects, I always seek confirmation from > the head maintainer before overriding them. Thank you! From unknown Thu Jun 19 13:59:11 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2021 12:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator