From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:41:41 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#50950 <50950@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#50950 <50950@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors Reply-To: bug#50950 <50950@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 05:41:41 +0000 retitle 50950 "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other e= ditors reassign 50950 emacs submitter 50950 Stefan Kangas severity 50950 wishlist tag 50950 patch thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 15:31:40 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 19:31:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57382 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWOFw-0007g0-K5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:31:40 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:59768) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWOFu-0007fs-QW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:31:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57308) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWOFt-0006kj-Ec for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:31:38 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f175.google.com ([209.85.210.175]:43751) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWOFr-0002e2-NU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:31:36 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f175.google.com with SMTP id 187so4412323pfc.10 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:31:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=rLRlpccjnpP7YWGyzPV7e7EE3/a0nH6BhATiAP1ugAI=; b=7jGo5j/jMmBlEONLc9Nt2ZdWp+kDA2xUbjkwBtw5gfTGsGMN+CdiJUsQf75Wzcj2mz AiNi8joP75JEV8dOpNw+gET/MrM6DRFmeappj9Vu4qS0EQKafwR6P3q5yMrIZ928e1iX ni5RIy0ZxstsS84h1sUk+x+XXNXz+0ov29TBlE+KYG62z2PRQoWemkx8bk/ZN1GC3kfb syAmtWOhJm5Sz5NXsfFCclJ4ED1PrshjXJCHlqEE9zr1DXe8xdUdBrYqvWeZ5DG25lD/ 5ezlmSJ0KMbYpsGtOdnqPmDDd4CvQloS9z2Ryq/YrjBNs1fG/LbI4KJBn0PWyzCCJKq9 9TIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Ao4Z/LZVzNp7Upset76wxb9LaRkORZ6wCS7JLUaPaYvNuH+L+ N7hdweABkXw4LYPP4uok+8G7cFducqX1YRdnDeWWLfdYao8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8XvxYO/HXj4GNe6cyUS1Y1KM0OebKbFYGaAx/vlwNdKN9IPVbwfFal3/At79hwvuv/zMtxR/CccAydOQuUDA= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9e90:0:b0:43f:2abb:a504 with SMTP id p16-20020aa79e90000000b0043f2abba504mr12930610pfq.35.1633116693879; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:31:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Stefan Kangas Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:31:22 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.210.175; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-f175.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) Severity: wishlist The section '(emacs) Mark' starts with saying: "Many Emacs commands operate on an arbitrary contiguous part of the current buffer." This makes it sound like this is an unusual, super advanced feature, when in the rest of the world this is just known as "selecting text". We should avoid the words "arbitrary" and "contiguous" which, while accurate, comes off as extremely highbrow for such an extremely basic feature. We should re-work this section to contrast the unusual parts of point, mark and region to the types of text selection that exists in other editors. We can safely assume that the latter is well known. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 15:43:59 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 19:43:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57397 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWORr-0007yG-CI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:43:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54990) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWORq-0007y6-4j for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:43:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54764) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWORk-0004gT-GJ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:43:52 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3965 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWORj-0006yE-0s; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:43:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 22:43:33 +0300 Message-Id: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:31:22 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:31:22 +0200 > > Severity: wishlist > > The section '(emacs) Mark' starts with saying: > > "Many Emacs commands operate on an arbitrary contiguous part of the > current buffer." > > This makes it sound like this is an unusual, super advanced feature, > when in the rest of the world this is just known as "selecting text". > We should avoid the words "arbitrary" and "contiguous" which, while > accurate, comes off as extremely highbrow for such an extremely basic > feature. I disagree that the region is a basic feature. It may look deceptively similar to text selections, but it isn't. We have the region, the active region, and the shift- and mouse-selected text, which all look similar, and sometimes behave similarly, but they are not identical. > We should re-work this section to contrast the unusual parts of point, > mark and region to the types of text selection that exists in other > editors. We can safely assume that the latter is well known. The region and selected text are not identical. The differences are subtle and not easy to explain, but saying that they are the same is worse than that, because it will trip users. If anything, we should perhaps mention in this overview text that Emacs has these 3 overlapping concepts (which are explained by the sections of this chapter), because their addition to Emacs was piecemeal and the overview was never updated to cover all of them. But I don't think we should consider this a simple feature: that would prevent us from explaining the subtleties that users should be aware of. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 19:01:42 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 23:01:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57547 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWRXC-0004gP-CR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 19:01:42 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f177.google.com ([209.85.215.177]:44966) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWRX8-0004gA-IT for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 19:01:41 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f177.google.com with SMTP id s11so10704785pgr.11 for <50950@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 16:01:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=t9z1N4Gg85pMUCFhsxSeaKWgmUv8cCf2CdCeLBUgi4s=; b=D42YSMrALGFO2wQJnGIIUpjjRvXCKIb66De6qLaZ32XON//CPr2oaHIpIC6sUpTpTJ UUPgX1o22KtSfwWA+r9LEosq0fsPbcjT0gVGD/EyZMxGhJ4N1c3hDOXbhwS8Vj4B9dU5 7ONOJi/AeGFgYm7F/O4f9a3WzrHKUf6LLC6FpYEo1Pqc6v77XFyQhRI9vfwHJFz5uqDE IFIIe/7Frixrt0S/HAfkjdCEibf2rAlHuheoiLypi9IJ6ux41M5jV8PyZ8a0xNm4oOc7 ozTbF3tdhBzoN2SXgykNs6vA1rna6ECNia4koCU+ui26JFpxMxFMcXEV25PgePwGBFZj OP/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Gg2p/V8NnGAhOWMCVRMUhfN6dlpOM6RSfB/EFVGn+aZ5tCcqR pdejw1B8ChrVUQnRRhf9jWHl6cqVasEDaYhsouYkWtErsxM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyjuR7lOThO3Z0xMlr8Qc4eSprBqZdJle+JBoTdFvHu3fGPiWsfY702syIP9GE4lt8+JKwItTGNDXFsrdD3IVs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1586:b0:447:b30c:4a65 with SMTP id u6-20020a056a00158600b00447b30c4a65mr12489499pfk.0.1633129292421; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 16:01:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 01:01:21 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Den fre 1 okt. 2021 kl 21:44 skrev Eli Zaretskii : > > > From: Stefan Kangas > > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 21:31:22 +0200 > > > > Severity: wishlist > > > > The section '(emacs) Mark' starts with saying: > > > > "Many Emacs commands operate on an arbitrary contiguous part of the > > current buffer." > > > > This makes it sound like this is an unusual, super advanced feature, > > when in the rest of the world this is just known as "selecting text". > > We should avoid the words "arbitrary" and "contiguous" which, while > > accurate, comes off as extremely highbrow for such an extremely basic > > feature. > > I disagree that the region is a basic feature. It may look > deceptively similar to text selections, but it isn't. We have the > region, the active region, and the shift- and mouse-selected text, > which all look similar, and sometimes behave similarly, but they are > not identical. IMO, it is not an advanced feature, and on the most basic level it really is just selecting text. You want to copy it, make it bold, indent it, or what have you. It is of course precisely what makes it different that needs to be explained. But this can and IMO should be done by starting out from what is already known. For example, where we now have: Many Emacs commands operate on an arbitrary contiguous part of the current buffer. To specify the text for such a command to operate on, you set =E2=80=9Cthe mark=E2=80=9D at one end of it, and move point to th= e other end. it would be better to put something along these lines: In other text editors, you can select text to perform various operations on, such as copying or deleting it. In Emacs, we say that such commands operate on the "region". The region starts at point, and ends at what in Emacs is known as "the mark" ... [Note: this a very quick write-up, and not a proposal.] We don't need to talk about "arbitrary contiguous parts" or anything like that. There is no need to pretend as if the user don't already have a very strong concept of what exactly is a text selection and how it works: our job is to help the user see exactly where that intuition fails. > > We should re-work this section to contrast the unusual parts of point, > > mark and region to the types of text selection that exists in other > > editors. We can safely assume that the latter is well known. > > The region and selected text are not identical. The differences are > subtle and not easy to explain, but saying that they are the same is > worse than that, because it will trip users. See above, this is not about saying that these things are the same. In any case, AFAICT, the manual doesn't make much of an attempt to explain this difference as it is, so I'm not sure it is very important. I could be wrong, but in that case I think the manual should try to do a better job at explaining it. (The only match I can find for variations of "select" in the index is "mouse, selecting text using" and that section is talking about the region.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 02 02:23:08 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2021 06:23:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57735 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYQO-0007bj-Im for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 02:23:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33354) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYQK-0007ay-NP for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 02:23:06 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYQF-00086s-5S; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 02:22:59 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3394 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYQE-0007Y9-Pi; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 02:22:59 -0400 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 09:22:41 +0300 Message-Id: <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 2 Oct 2021 01:01:21 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2021 01:01:21 +0200 > Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org > > > I disagree that the region is a basic feature. It may look > > deceptively similar to text selections, but it isn't. We have the > > region, the active region, and the shift- and mouse-selected text, > > which all look similar, and sometimes behave similarly, but they are > > not identical. > > IMO, it is not an advanced feature, and on the most basic level it > really is just selecting text. You want to copy it, make it bold, > indent it, or what have you. > > It is of course precisely what makes it different that needs to be > explained. But this can and IMO should be done by starting out from > what is already known. For example, where we now have: > > Many Emacs commands operate on an arbitrary contiguous part of the > current buffer. To specify the text for such a command to operate on, > you set “the mark” at one end of it, and move point to the other end. > > it would be better to put something along these lines: > > In other text editors, you can select text to perform various > operations on, such as copying or deleting it. In Emacs, we say > that such commands operate on the "region". > > The region starts at point, and ends at what in Emacs is known > as "the mark" ... > > [Note: this a very quick write-up, and not a proposal.] > > We don't need to talk about "arbitrary contiguous parts" or anything > like that. There is no need to pretend as if the user don't already > have a very strong concept of what exactly is a text selection and how > it works: our job is to help the user see exactly where that intuition > fails. As I said, rewriting this overview text is probably a good idea, so no argument here. But the new text should still explain how our region is different in subtle but important ways from what people see in other editors. Would you like to propose such a rewording? > In any case, AFAICT, the manual doesn't make much of an attempt to > explain this difference as it is, so I'm not sure it is very > important. I think it is important to explain; the fact that we don't is just because once upon a time there was just one kind of region, and other applications at that time didn't have anything even close. Nowadays things are different, so the way the overview is presented needs to be rethought. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 16 09:04:47 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2021 13:04:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41128 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mbjMk-0000Ja-L4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:04:47 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169]:37655) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mbjMj-0000JJ-7g for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:04:45 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f169.google.com with SMTP id s136so8002672pgs.4 for <50950@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 06:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Oab7oj32eKjNGBWaO0N8DfPpaEmIB+TxCUuel+sZPpQ=; b=G69LB7zsWbJVAqVS4aEnHH6hotYV9sJnDdv9yd+nNn3/eW1Ntt9CMXkHGFcqHrbcoj b9Qo9jYj0nmDskiJHDMybRaXpOksnu1ZrTsuGi4DTvcq+PZRoScDtW8S3nKuP4mz/Bur yXmJIMvdUoqnn/s0SCuf2AilIVqxi8blVn5FqoUCUq7THDbHPOk2De2KXJriCCh+OEk4 AJGK7n3/OyIkhsjG2cf/TTZoPMMXpt5czUx2TL/GniXKphxZHPBJU92qjbhDwtWDrTfq vT4KAMqr6KCHKrQ9kPZAZJfSKuNZORL9N61QoVb0ao/DDfwnSPUoZaiHGjz1qpVfH73w gtOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530u9B6Z8lquMt8aA4U7rMJxkB+AcxYdIBI7ZRfLhWLBIfUmBvlZ 9GK+5LxWUKtr+86OqlB0fkb6aBIb/ylOZUQT84s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyPOLSfgVyVRd1ig310hITwQsMOlM6gacey9i8DYQr8o+l9hI3qeC9Pegq8pZFXMbTHg/PlNRY6XdqIAVj9OMg= X-Received: by 2002:a63:9d06:: with SMTP id i6mr13829808pgd.42.1634389479503; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 06:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:04:38 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:04:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="00000000000059daab05ce77f40f" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000059daab05ce77f40f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" tags 50950 + patch thanks Eli Zaretskii writes: > As I said, rewriting this overview text is probably a good idea, so no > argument here. But the new text should still explain how our region > is different in subtle but important ways from what people see in > other editors. Would you like to propose such a rewording? I have made an attempt in the attached patch. I wrote this a week or two ago, and returned to it again, and with fresh eyes I only find some minor touch-ups to be made. I'm interested to hear what you all think. --00000000000059daab05ce77f40f Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset="US-ASCII"; name="0001-Rewrite-section-on-mark-to-feel-more-contemporary.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Rewrite-section-on-mark-to-feel-more-contemporary.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: 60bc125664b38d14_0.1 RnJvbSBmM2EwZDcwYTA3ZWM2MjJmODY2MGQ5NjVmMTA4ODViZGNlODE3MGRiIE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBTdGVmYW4gS2FuZ2FzIDxzdGVmYW5AbWFyeGlzdC5zZT4KRGF0 ZTogU2F0LCAxNiBPY3QgMjAyMSAxNDo0OToxMyArMDIwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIFJld3Jp dGUgc2VjdGlvbiBvbiBtYXJrIHRvIGZlZWwgbW9yZSBjb250ZW1wb3JhcnkKCiogZG9jL2VtYWNz L21hcmsudGV4aSAoTWFyayk6IFJld3JpdGUgc2VjdGlvbiB0byBob3BlZnVsbHkgZmVlbAptb3Jl IHJlbGV2YW50IHRvIGEgY29udGVtcG9yYXJ5IHJlYWRlci4gIChCdWcjNTA5NTApCi0tLQogZG9j L2VtYWNzL21hcmsudGV4aSB8IDQ3ICsrKysrKysrKysrKysrKysrKysrKysrKystLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLQogMSBmaWxlIGNoYW5nZWQsIDI2IGluc2VydGlvbnMoKyksIDIxIGRlbGV0aW9u 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(Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mbkPs-0004V2-3a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:12:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34216) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mbkPq-0004UZ-Ex for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:12:02 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49568) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mbkPl-0000l0-3z; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:11:57 -0400 Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4262 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mbkPk-0004LD-NW; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:11:57 -0400 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:11:58 +0300 Message-Id: <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:04:38 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 09:04:38 -0400 > Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > As I said, rewriting this overview text is probably a good idea, so no > > argument here. But the new text should still explain how our region > > is different in subtle but important ways from what people see in > > other editors. Would you like to propose such a rewording? > > I have made an attempt in the attached patch. I wrote this a week or > two ago, and returned to it again, and with fresh eyes I only find some > minor touch-ups to be made. I'm interested to hear what you all think. Are you happy with the result? My main problem with this text is that it says there are important differences, but with a single exception leaves it to the reader to deduce or guess which parts of the description are about these differences and which ones just describe related issues and features. Another, more minor problem is that the text starts under the assumption that when you say "selected text", the reader immediately understands what you mean, and that is neither a given nor a good style, IME: it is always better to have some introductory sentence that provides context. For example: Emacs, like many other applications, lets you select some arbitrary part of the buffer text and invoke commands that operate on such @dfn{selected text}. In Emacs, we call the selected text @dfn{the region}; its handling is very similar to that of selected text in other programs, but there are also important differences. As for differences themselves, I'd suggest an explicit itemized list, first naming them and then explaining each difference in some detail, including cross-references to sections which describe them in more detail. The differences I think we should describe here are: . the "mark" and its relation to region (after all, the chapter is called "The Mark and the Region") . the fact that region can be active or inactive, and the basic difference between these two . the fact that some commands operate on region if it's active, and some even if it's inactive (the main difference here is that in Emacs many more commands are region-sensitive than in other programs, where it basically only supports copy/paste) . maybe also that we have some unusual ways of extending the region The main challenge in describing these is how to describe enough, but not too much (because the full details are elsewhere, and this is just an introduction). Thanks. 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b=p595t+AOPUHJQfqZihP6PpREOyseLxJDN8JWA9SmftY95hFjQsx3FZZV1cAXwM4sKuXT493Z45lQVguuz5p6qCw6dvzIjzpaks0dzav04o1pVYJwFTwXh+wp39gaO7t+TfcRBGe4GKjb3qwiCTbZS2h5VasnkweU8Jau9DNBCk8= Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by BY5PR10MB3779.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:1b6::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4608.16; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:14:29 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82%9]) with mapi id 15.20.4608.018; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:14:29 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas Subject: RE: [External] : bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors Thread-Index: AQHXwo503SRuUkofuEiyA2LB9ULwsKvVqsn3gAA3fXA= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:14:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnu.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 77087e92-96ff-4985-01fe-08d990d0cbe8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Oct 2021 18:14:29.7894 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 2fRdz++XDE5H9KWNcR4u0BmCgZ05N79nvrniY0uf1hr3lAkixUJwaVQBilAX4Sq+hfl9SfpnzS9MOOCF2Tga+Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR10MB3779 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10139 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110160124 X-Proofpoint-GUID: Bd6F5wiWpETNISPmm57mm0mg7no5SQXD X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Bd6F5wiWpETNISPmm57mm0mg7no5SQXD X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: "50950@debbugs.gnu.org" <50950@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) FWIW - I generally agree with Eli's feedback. Some comments on the text: 1. "In Emacs, selected text is called the @dfn{region}." No, not really, and this should be gotten across at the outset. I guess you could say that in transient-mark-mode selected text is the _active_ region. But then you'll need to distinguish active from inactive in t-m-mode etc. The region is simply the buffer expanse between point and mark, and the region's text is the text in that expanse (region). It's point and mark that are basic concepts to talking about (and defining) the region. I know that you're just trying, in this intro text, to connect the region with what users already know about, namely selected, highlighted text. The problem I see with the text is that it seems to be=20 defining the region as the same thing as selected text. This is probably just a problem of wording. E.g., if you want to introduce the region by saying that it's _somewhat_ like XYZ, that could be OK. And you do that by saying it's "roughly analogous..." Just don't say that selected text "is called the region". Care needs to be taken to clearly distinguish it - it's _not_ XYZ - and to explain about t-m-mode and the "active" region, and that some Emacs commands act on the text in the region even when it's inactive (and when t-m-mode is off). 2. It's not just that there are names for point and mark. They are important concepts and things you use. Command can do things at point or mark, for instance. 3. I think it's a mistake to speak of "moving point" and saying "you move point". Point is just the current cursor position. You move the cursor, not point. (Yes, the value of point changes when you move the cursor, but the user POV is moving the cursor.) 4. "The region always starts at point...ends at... the mark." I wouldn't say that. It's important that users understand from the outset that point and mark are at the ends of the region (or rather that the region is defined by those positions as its limits). But neither point nor mark is the start (or the end). Start and end are anyway unclear. We have `region-beginning|end', for start and end; we don't have point and mark for start and end. Yes, you try to explain this later. But the text you're starting with can misguide, IMO, by talking about point as the start and mark as the end. 5. "normal movement commands" is unclear, to me. I'd speak in terms of movement of the _cursor_. There are also window, frame, text, etc. movements. I think it's important (perhaps after making some nod to what users might already have experienced in other editors) to start with the concepts of cursor and buffer, then move to point and mark, and then move to region, active region, etc. 6. "move the mark"..."we call this setting the mark". I wouldn't say that. I'd say that you can (and Emacs can) set the mark to any buffer position. Just as for point (another buffer position), it can mislead to speak of moving the mark. There's nothing analogous to the cursor for the mark - no visual thingy that you move. But when the mark is set to a new position you can see that the region limit has changed. 7. "Setting the mark also @dfn{activates} it." Only in t-m-mode. When t-m-mode is off there's no notion of an active/inactive mark or region. 8. "After some commands, including any command that changes the text in the buffer, Emacs automatically @dfn{deactivates} the mark." It's not about "some commands". It's about most commands. More precisely, this is the _default_ behavior: after a command the mark is deactivated. 9. "the region is no longer active, and consequently any highlighting of it is removed." Yes, but there's another important consequence - one that's perhaps even more important: many commands no longer act on the region (namely those that act on it only when it's active). 10. (You can tell that I think the existing text already has some of the same problems. In particular, t-m-mode is introduced late, which means readers need to then wonder just what parts of what the read before that are no longer true - that's not obvious.) 11. "The mark is useful even if it is not active. For example, you can move to previous mark locations using the mark ring. Mark Ring. Additionally, some command= s will have an effect even on an inactive region (for example upcase-region)." This is important, and should be said earlier. I'd say "mark and region" are useful, not mark. I'd move the example of the mark being useful on its own (e.g. mark-ring) earlier. (I'd start, as I said, with cursor, then point and mark, then region, then active/inactive and t-m-mode.) HTH. Feel free to ignore, of course. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 16 14:22:01 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2021 18:22:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43033 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mboJl-0004OT-E0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:22:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40322) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mboJj-0004OH-70 for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:21:59 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55362) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mboJb-0007GW-M0; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:21:52 -0400 Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1532 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mboJb-0007Zo-7Z; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:21:51 -0400 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 21:21:51 +0300 Message-Id: <83ee8khlts.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:14:29 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "50950@debbugs.gnu.org" <50950@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:14:29 +0000 > > 3. I think it's a mistake to speak of "moving > point" and saying "you move point". > > Point is just the current cursor position. You > move the cursor, not point. Not in Emacs. In Emacs, commands move point, and the cursor is then drawn to show where point is. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 77116600-3a2b-47c8-8bfd-08d990d37c87 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Oct 2021 18:33:45.1094 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: mxPhZQW+kkUW1c/HwIAuL0Orprv3ruXq0xnABfR0YHrkocsKNeEEpPStoj6zrE/0VJEJZQKiuRS9f73Uk+UmJA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR10MB4260 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10139 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=955 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110160125 X-Proofpoint-GUID: ZtfpQa88BcAlN-LZGcvLRIXt5a5BFRox X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: ZtfpQa88BcAlN-LZGcvLRIXt5a5BFRox X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: "50950@debbugs.gnu.org" <50950@debbugs.gnu.org>, "stefan@marxist.se" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) > > 3. I think it's a mistake to speak of "moving > > point" and saying "you move point". > > > > Point is just the current cursor position. You > > move the cursor, not point. >=20 > Not in Emacs. In Emacs, commands move point, and the cursor is then > drawn to show where point is. Yes, in Emacs. In Emacs, users move the cursor, which means that point changes. You don't see point; you see the cursor. Point is a position: the position of the cursor. We're talking to users, and we should use a user point of view. That starts with the things you see and act on. What takes place under the covers to enable you to act on those things is something else. Yes, users need to know about some of those things too. But start with what's user-visible. We'll have to agree to disagree about this one, I'm afraid. I offered my suggestions; ignore them as you like. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 16 14:56:06 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2021 18:56:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43063 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mboqk-0005Et-5D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:56:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45558) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mboqg-0005EM-DT for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:56:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:56474) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mboqa-0007uA-Fo; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:55:56 -0400 Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3593 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mboqB-0001Px-6h; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:55:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 21:55:33 +0300 Message-Id: <83czo4hk9m.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:33:45 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee8khlts.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "stefan@marxist.se" , > "50950@debbugs.gnu.org" > <50950@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:33:45 +0000 > > > > Point is just the current cursor position. You > > > move the cursor, not point. > > > > Not in Emacs. In Emacs, commands move point, and the cursor is then > > drawn to show where point is. > > Yes, in Emacs. In Emacs, users move the cursor, > which means that point changes. You don't see > point; you see the cursor. Point is a position: > the position of the cursor. > > We're talking to users, and we should use a user > point of view. User's point of view will not be served if we distort the reality while presenting it to the user. The notion of point and its movement is central to understanding Emacs, and realizing that changes like point motion come first, while display of the cursor comes later, is important to being able to extend Emacs and write Emacs Lisp programs. 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b=rq0sG4d3qKDaR+cQVSDjYdkz/gqOsJmtF11by2tGBQRwr4kVPn/DRK7PZQxYxm07N/iuJA+C8Zc75YJzAh7kzBWhyvw7z4SIwSdwXvHyk/1Fib6L9jk9NnV+l+rv2a4rSilC/XLoSvaRR0dfyk5+nQMVzkSyD2d9a9VIATrreGA= Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by SJ0PR10MB4544.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:2ad::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4608.16; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 19:26:07 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82%9]) with mapi id 15.20.4608.018; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 19:26:07 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors Thread-Index: AQHXwr93tTXTsQ+Y40Wa1RwZni9UeKvV+kRA Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 19:26:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee8khlts.fsf@gnu.org> <83czo4hk9m.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83czo4hk9m.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnu.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 048b90da-fc4a-4e9a-cbe9-08d990dacd8a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Oct 2021 19:26:07.3798 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 829R7PzOrssdVj7m9AXx09rArBFIbAmL4cfReBVVIzcbwR9y8NdP7HpKcKOSMdic9Be4PIut3Roqg8TELptehQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR10MB4544 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10139 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=941 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110160131 X-Proofpoint-GUID: Dl6Ei3_6aDXPtTeKVfSJ8VyzeyTC-6mC X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Dl6Ei3_6aDXPtTeKVfSJ8VyzeyTC-6mC X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: "50950@debbugs.gnu.org" <50950@debbugs.gnu.org>, "stefan@marxist.se" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) > > > > Point is just the current cursor position. > > > > You move the cursor, not point. > > > > > > Not in Emacs. In Emacs, commands move point, > > > and the cursor is then drawn to show where point is. > > > > Yes, in Emacs. In Emacs, users move the cursor, > > which means that point changes. You don't see > > point; you see the cursor. Point is a position: > > the position of the cursor. > > > > We're talking to users, and we should use a user > > point of view. >=20 > User's point of view will not be served if we=20 > distort the reality while presenting it to the user. Agreed 100%. I haven't distorted it. A position doesn't "move". Something changes its position by moving. If _you move_ then _your_ position changes. The X-coordinate 1.3 (a position) does not move. A point whose X-coordinate is 1.3 can move to a different position, with an X-coordinate of, say, 2.9. Understanding is not served by distorting things to ignore this distinction. > The notion of point and its movement > is central to understanding Emacs, The notion of _point_ is central. That's clear in all that I wrote. Try reading again this part of what I wrote (and the rest): a user point of view ... starts with the things ^^^^^^ you see and act on. Yes, users need to know about some of those things too [such as what you mention: display reflects changed point value]. But start ^^^^^ with what's user-visible. The _presentation_, to users, of concepts about a software product does not necessarily follow the order/mechanics of its underlying implementation. But yes, of course, fuller understanding of Emacs requires understanding of what happens under the covers - how Emacs does what it does. And that's precisely because Emacs users/takers are, at the end of the day, also Emacs implementers/makers. ___ Usefully related to presentation not necessarily following implementation directly (but not the _same_ distinction): "Of course the method of presentation must differ in form from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the material in detail, to analyse its different forms of development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only after this work is done, can the actual movement be adequately described. If this is done successfully, if the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a mere a priori construction." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 17 02:27:41 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2021 06:27:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43491 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mbze1-0001BE-B3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 02:27:41 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52342) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mbzdz-0001B1-Up for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 02:27:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45874) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mbzdu-0001hW-Ir; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 02:27:34 -0400 Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2358 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mbzdt-0006Bx-5I; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 02:27:34 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 09:27:36 +0300 Message-Id: <8335p0go87.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: stefan@marxist.se In-Reply-To: <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:11:58 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:11:58 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org > > As for differences themselves, I'd suggest an explicit itemized list, > first naming them and then explaining each difference in some detail, > including cross-references to sections which describe them in more > detail. The differences I think we should describe here are: > > . the "mark" and its relation to region (after all, the chapter is > called "The Mark and the Region") > . the fact that region can be active or inactive, and the basic > difference between these two > . the fact that some commands operate on region if it's active, and > some even if it's inactive (the main difference here is that in > Emacs many more commands are region-sensitive than in other > programs, where it basically only supports copy/paste) > . maybe also that we have some unusual ways of extending the region And one more difference to consider: Emacs commands that move far enough away usually set the mark at the original position, thus implicitly setting the region. That region is by default inactive, but can be activated by a single command. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 17 04:35:01 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2021 08:35:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43555 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mc1dF-0004HF-Lp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 04:35:01 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:51009) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mc1dD-0004Gy-Nt for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 04:35:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1634459694; bh=KQ9WOEhHVIx68fbp1Uvx8JxC1d+Aa+yWB0Qct+dIBTg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=RB3LpPS9Iay6A3ab4qXSmDkv2QuLoZ7VGR6B5lBo5aIJmiPCN5gP4ymZhbWSsvzNR ztLriWc0v5zvZ49qay8f4DgmblyLujnIV2xEgJfzO+IUEssMEwVOx+lwYWJO0UR7t5 kJBDgm9bnyFMeMOLbWJtLc01Jmo2mXduiJKU4hbA= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([213.142.97.130]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MTzb8-1mAyaN4BUI-00R4wJ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 10:34:54 +0200 Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors To: Eli Zaretskii , stefan@marxist.se References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> <8335p0go87.fsf@gnu.org> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: <0ec2b997-c116-ba4c-fb5b-fe1c00368624@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 10:34:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8335p0go87.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:cx6SaL3ZDLZ6hiOfUszobZm11hI8TUj4c54Kchm7gnk9XEdlOv0 rNa1vU6LdWfpMvyY49hElnImpZbZ9Qg6PA2bI6sGmnXXSWXIRXTqXsG0WBzWBNsO8RymWUq Hc8AFaQyqDjOgOpZiM395d3NeMkwrI9ayg0m4tHbmDyalsOVkMrQahwgv7DUw5RUuqT2UvV CbORTZU13CAjHz8bMHNTw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Ho97PpC/K1g=:yJCU4y3vUspY/i9AXIqrSM S4O8Hr0/M6u65xL6C5Sa7mJtY4jjKjNBLmNheDwhyhGVgq85qAoFZDjP/8hIOSIBE3b8h9oMF SIvhTO5dhBEkYI+6fRiu3BaykVS+MXD5ZW7msPpQo8Wz6oFBAl12dsHteK60wTPazjF/CnS4e jKqov2obFz87C7xgqdy8MsRKLa/o5OA7c7QsVu3CZUUlU0pb7sJKbjNNhKkkd0180S33CBwDY 0x2yxCGIrAngTXxR8Gj7/jP6ABXKJHGaad2CrI8bhbOfe0RQHoxouFIoKe4jWsnnABqe0BUI1 h8+TMNy/WeYlASLO05lxnKMH14dwJ3raK1KHNaCGm7igXFtwZkNyx72PleCOvYo4OPR/EYGkE mZqMEN5sycurhME3+uNtULUesiIJHMLl0wvHLgfkDZxxTJKiaKRjpWa28f8FKeFobaAgJvHhy +5j5oB0i1LlWojIGctlhsL8HyVEy5aehptAfISq2+9tHdxQ585IqRLcIGEWOW444MS2/VBKVQ CTJK6yQ9BiuvCf73+nyecPwD/79zTZTPgPxKGIoE/A+z1sfwczzqjwVjHwJ1Z/XrmiKEIfGrX acLGf3YQt4h3c20fowYqInAXa/gQxpLylStLJVhSGYiNEocXJaMyd8DFN/myrVj3evTC0sw6a b7lNS14Jh7jfvvpPsEuPOWoZV/FjIfbs0V/x0yB0I8QbDYPznHGN8S9AyJ4IHsXGnW2TxT+gP +G6l6DGtGwd7foGAuTfMTDKBenn0NG1nanevMsmvrUBFB3+QpQ0H8IUczYfJ+NyzF9NIY3JAN 0AyG7LL03HKEHpbOqk6udl6AssIGNe9f4iQBYetCT65o3oe7N1jkg076FwSd2N+kJwdY9sDVg j2GHDAtjWD8L2lZQqte15I4YPlWFg1owH1q5GQUHz2CZ1oqkUifi2xgxHji4A6A1G0ATP0pCd UeK4McHYiXwH1pweFp+oKYPI3M4z2qrfGv4jdC2X1NcXyKWg8aKrOVdr7oVFoJCGkp9bZxzXG qIhefdscpuB5RP+NL5GUM8/xAgU1VWTbYANhzeRx5JGq99XlefmL+yeJzADsVeB/DPCzM2Q9P vIDqfzmZkBrAXo= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > And one more difference to consider: Emacs commands that move far > enough away usually set the mark at the original position, thus > implicitly setting the region. That region is by default inactive, > but can be activated by a single command. The most significant difference IMHO is that the region may change when scrolling a window. martin From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 17 06:05:57 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2021 10:05:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43608 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mc33E-0006V8-Um for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 06:05:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44332) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mc33D-0006Uw-DK for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 06:05:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49030) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mc334-0003kv-1r; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 06:05:49 -0400 Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3969 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mc32M-0006RD-UI; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 06:05:04 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:05:07 +0300 Message-Id: <83wnmcezl8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: martin rudalics In-Reply-To: <0ec2b997-c116-ba4c-fb5b-fe1c00368624@gmx.at> (message from martin rudalics on Sun, 17 Oct 2021 10:34:53 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> <8335p0go87.fsf@gnu.org> <0ec2b997-c116-ba4c-fb5b-fe1c00368624@gmx.at> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org > From: martin rudalics > Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 10:34:53 +0200 > > > And one more difference to consider: Emacs commands that move far > > enough away usually set the mark at the original position, thus > > implicitly setting the region. That region is by default inactive, > > but can be activated by a single command. > > The most significant difference IMHO is that the region may change when > scrolling a window. The region changes whenever point changes, so there are many other situations where it changes. But the one you mention above is not something that will surprise users, because it happens in other apps as well, right? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 17 07:15:40 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2021 11:15:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43645 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mc48i-0008Ls-6p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:15:40 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:55163) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mc48g-0008Lc-CC for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:15:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1634469332; bh=QnJ1N4Us2hUrEjqgtkRYJ0Iu+uv3wJwzXnOoSQInrS0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=U6fIVhBBLEmTHaADDMmBXID+wJousXSAIOnxnb443JPmMC0dqzz3f+exhyTfVdzBI gHNGqfCXa14CE+BgXTdvhUpRLRbvH0jN699zDBmLKXWZ4Ro0ReHQXPLZ39kEk1zfMb h9UmfH6h7WK1/pzGIcELABfSpeNN3NFEULn1E+YI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([213.142.97.130]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MWRVb-1mEp1k3Cl1-00XvzE; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:15:31 +0200 Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors To: Eli Zaretskii References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> <8335p0go87.fsf@gnu.org> <0ec2b997-c116-ba4c-fb5b-fe1c00368624@gmx.at> <83wnmcezl8.fsf@gnu.org> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:15:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83wnmcezl8.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8iasn1ytXTpyhXID9GyeoQWvTVSeUcvjJDT8nM4i/lMo9ICg9tX vCMMg+Vx5s2dSjnzVsdZvAk606w5Lbi919+h8oM0FCPAbAEbRbCOI77G9uVweJFhL3zSQwG 1oMaQA5V15PGj2/r/KUrlfLNu3D9zku4w/tU8lgOlkUAPuxdixi7vM7oVMcHYiRdgWxRPR9 B+Kzpht5nWCfgvSTqcZ8g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:bi2v9sgsXvY=:igaSDIxVFsv6YKIzi8OWp8 dLu5G3rNQ5P2lGc1y3zkb6AmKNK3otifNTHYT/skgY41Ib2O8Lrpdy0Jv9/C3OTT1EX3iDc1A se9LEFyck9s3ZBAdD31sY2HgRl8/Du31ZqQ6cAp59KpBysiNOOhUrO6aRO1SbS2Y+3ZETpC2E AzXuJ4rjNAObANyTwKA5bTHT/WrnGZd//jtMEkoycah5keQUA7qvzr0FPe0GLUB9n8m7AJFn+ pK4pzGnB7PnImWGwz+0Q68cP9UIB+alfrM+XiSLPJNzTs54xks5q25dPtg7O4dsBFmQPpdtpR oVx8V8vhg8ty5/K7wyaCx4rIK5663RcpRMUh1gcQ1s+HpXUeTBaa0aA/Zj8ukaSCLhprshHxJ cHoYmt/hZIe4HBsPB4hhulgG4yJXkXe1y4R9VcwDRhILh671FR+ZHGxnmHqifVJx0Cv3HQ4qq WsJCQpSKgUI9X6P9M+klgdk7hpI1G+5nVQqv047dKC8xQtw+A4qFmrVA1PXarrYKlw94WZLH7 pK42JOJS29acRkGFgn2pACz6BryzJ1ujXpCTCPLqnb9CJnAneG3qDzRaViZjpOIOWkjz6uMwt yGcLNc4s8QfVOL0lHn9vZ1lll9Nw3QsfKQ8FiKAVJmr8RjYbPSYdSP1VS4wO+xjRDXKY3xGyP btGtZ9vL7bMqIZAqxfXW0qZPlZgIMYn/YZ/KOk3OSGcDk3pNtsnB8hndzjAPLUg3B2hwcTm3r SjnJf6TqRqCqRdRCXvFNEU3Lozt/VF6C0Ij8+JL7sq0Jq2lO5Ocstn7/ubxVRJIldepabjt/r al2VWDxXakQRkA5ir0hCDrN0pib/nOwgnawh76bWO5RS9olXqRqa1+k47zgqNjp/EdczRvS2P C+/pcu446QRD3ij9CXKAvHbVgZUj5i7wP+nIiiXzoOj1RexCzMACsqHqe526qPK452fL8QvYn uo5lTPZdpIk09M47wBWpbtjoKyxrkIrWi8Ou54XXJx0FKK4B6x5mxSr96vVR26A+BTpAASmA0 +pz+oxQEGb/wE+LVqyvZ0GtUHBrQqoB46LKOfhSk6WfkY3ulYKKVDsG027A2DPYCjWcGNPnKM I5AwGg/Ef7mBYU= X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > The region changes whenever point changes, so there are many other > situations where it changes. But the one you mention above is not > something that will surprise users, because it happens in other apps > as well, right? I have never seen another application change the highlighted region when scrolling a window. Can you name one? martin From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 17 07:35:15 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2021 11:35:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43654 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mc4Re-0002XI-QR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:35:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53470) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mc4RZ-0002Wv-QT for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:35:13 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51672) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mc4RU-000227-27; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:35:04 -0400 Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1583 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mc4RT-0006An-If; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:35:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 14:35:06 +0300 Message-Id: <83sfwzg9zp.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: martin rudalics In-Reply-To: (message from martin rudalics on Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:15:30 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> <8335p0go87.fsf@gnu.org> <0ec2b997-c116-ba4c-fb5b-fe1c00368624@gmx.at> <83wnmcezl8.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: stefan@marxist.se, 50950@debbugs.gnu.org > From: martin rudalics > Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:15:30 +0200 > > > The region changes whenever point changes, so there are many other > > situations where it changes. But the one you mention above is not > > something that will surprise users, because it happens in other apps > > as well, right? > > I have never seen another application change the highlighted region when > scrolling a window. Can you name one? Depends on how you scroll, I guess. Applications where "point" stays put when it goes out of the viewport need to be scrolled by moving "point". But if you have in mind the automatic movement of point when the window is scrolled, then yes, it's quite unique to Emacs, but it isn't about scrolling, it's about the fact that any movement of point modifies the region. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 17 13:44:22 2021 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Oct 2021 17:44:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45215 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mcACs-0005Y0-JG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:44:22 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:52907) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mcACq-0005Xm-GX for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:44:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1634492654; bh=MfAISnx8bqW3OUF2gJHaUEqT+dwesLOGO/Ih8rR9ktc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=BlP0rHok6AkPoX9ZdtpAUM8rX6IGGaOs2v4m89JaW7kE44D9BDb9KGpxkV/3jImZZ ULbg0cZ5uVLeNjMVv7F+jj2VxKWtV3pDzA1E+qeNiGJJ7uitD4reHw7jCKPF1NisVP twNGoRvymLvtuas69yvqIGG7QQxYdp1CS28YUejg= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([213.142.97.130]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MSKy8-1m9TEK3m7E-00Shjy; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 19:44:13 +0200 Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors To: Eli Zaretskii References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> <8335p0go87.fsf@gnu.org> <0ec2b997-c116-ba4c-fb5b-fe1c00368624@gmx.at> <83wnmcezl8.fsf@gnu.org> <83sfwzg9zp.fsf@gnu.org> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: <9f8fd710-43b2-6928-be4f-24cdfe9c8b78@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 19:44:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83sfwzg9zp.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6pmaBtduaGP97pEQK6W1UN3MfI4MZnzvXWVEu9akFSVVZ0HCRl2 I2648UVATNjqZmrg85bnUb10q2m1khx6m9vX8Gp4Q3xRN4nvpmacqZ7PzV6uk1oqAARjltw X3vz+QpcYIvYjkbhAq6yJlzRQqqNG9V2sjQElnydWOmO4WVUXF4onj0VigSA55iA2oApwvh YBtjuesTe3MEF9tCZwRzw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:7aHrJyXFtCA=:C3FWDeG0+vNsVtQOfQmD85 Prbb1TyzBQgR7v4UlPTRm9BPXz741WZFrdiIUWwTrkmdM2XqeD9GoaxQqK8H4cF9Q+hdO42r4 Icb9wuWpbqAePSp5riw75YpQqZLPXw2VO74eRzX7jHvSE8dgEim7VtQxR4k4ba51qJuCIQLkZ llT6qhknHJj17aX6KrD3lDZ7PZhHTBDC2vCibG9R0RpdSkfxcU0YE3JA65Kt9czJSbKoo0sLz 8NaDr2oaRs2Qt9OGbsRDfTC7Ui2EScb0gNR3Qigc04d3NTwJcKkczelSyic7SVy9wZW3aWm9E Q7mbKcdFgI8USVWTuTHKqtsYPCR4TajwY2TIcCNFl/gn6gFm1zQS8A+3mrDG4el7C9mqlMoze t8tHg+THiOH8U59WLKk3S1Y9WALNwo0lQFBaFvpFoMRaax4weeTvPRnUhfilMQFipELCdvuNb N1G9tYZGUMDU7CJNVLEbRUSRPtpA5kx/AHuLJ+LroxIytNw86BayBnkttkELUGFWK2lRE1/Ii gr/fWakmEgrxrQGKoog0YluFKgRUgqRlZ0gK3YU6/H6mzdmGTYZehOqgvYG5jcwwScNSxTdiw JTkCuflPc6Vg8d/Sqti/jl6dgg/EaB2IKFDkMEU+OR/ikVwkIq+I3ErUJ6OzCxNRvhQuRDezP aO3XJcP/+B+Crq5xgbogKzrGhSdgLGCg3jhaSzJECdxjX8N4q2Kr7RKxtpZKDZDeebL0gRolS BIiAcsyTuCnoN4nLrc0qnNb6hEkmnVG+wKb9H7fNzVh8UASwnH9NsQ/qMTuqBp+FOsCRPiUo3 pwIC9yM7GepFhbo/gKdIeWBY+dbQ0P5vDeDeqOT0nO2v+YoEnMny6jUmx4468DoQkFUudkniU hFb3gOGgX1w121ffvjSN+umH9BTEr0kzWZ8V4l8nmX2muOmMNk30DBWb8xSvj47ky5w9Vyqpk S458PhD/IipyyQ+GnVh3yDEwl92Oy8ZPiG70P5o2eN7f9KiCsdAsbiVTfrg5mHUJolxaYOr8T hjn6IaZFMw0RYD9vQFbFzEkRj9ZObyk3Mqg7DkjZnFZ3rMJRcEmKMXvcxSLZ1+jtePDiWZ//B Bpeb7TFHa5EaC4= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Depends on how you scroll, I guess. Using the mouse wheel, the mouse on the scroll bar or the , , or keys. I guess these are the most common ones for people trying to find out why Emacs does not behave like other editors or applications like Firefox. > Applications where "point" stays > put when it goes out of the viewport need to be scrolled by moving > "point". > > But if you have in mind the automatic movement of point when the > window is scrolled, then yes, it's quite unique to Emacs, but it isn't > about scrolling, it's about the fact that any movement of point > modifies the region. It's merely about the fact that "scrolling" as sketched above may move point and consequently alter or simply discard the "selected text". martin From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Sep 04 16:59:53 2022 Received: (at 50950) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Sep 2022 20:59:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45771 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oUwif-0008T0-2b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2022 16:59:53 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:60906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oUwid-0008Sj-8Y for 50950@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2022 16:59:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WUT/5WQM9ixS8qSGiSXSBH0gxNdRMkZDvgGAybyy1Ok=; b=kDo93bBNr6pEoRwMHdKQMpf77Z guRzqmM9947//dkDE1959I+h+t14F9taFq/c93UQNgRGhk/zA6woqGLdIQRokRHYErmXX1s/xD0y6 CrICS+LHG4sTHbr/4YsSLrQtS/wie0lRfIDLMM5usSw3WJ7lj7H1EBm5trVPWwtxCS78=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oUwiT-0002V4-RM; Sun, 04 Sep 2022 22:59:44 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50950: "(emacs) Mark" should contrast to "selecting" text in other editors In-Reply-To: <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:11:58 +0300") References: <83pmsocyze.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilygc5e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83ilxxgitt.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: David Bowie's _Hunky Dory_: "The Bewlay Brothers" Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 22:59:41 +0200 Message-ID: <87k06i7t4y.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > The main challenge in describing these is how to describe enough, but > not too much (because the full details are elsewhere, and this is just > an introduction). Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50950 Cc: 50950@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > The main challenge in describing these is how to describe enough, but > not too much (because the full details are elsewhere, and this is just > an introduction). I've now taken a stab at this in Emacs 29, incorporating text both from Stefan and Eli. Do feel free to adjust further. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Sep 04 16:59:59 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Sep 2022 20:59:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45774 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oUwil-0008TJ-Ay for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2022 16:59:59 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:60922) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oUwij-0008Sx-QZ for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2022 16:59:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=QKHeOxr0w1SB3W59Q3XkHUUN5N74KX4d/Pvx7kF3G9A=; b=tALYmIpYLWwi20EvUJ1NiuvECp gSWY8he9caTyTIeTxNYBokoatidZnisinfoIOb7J/G0z2IIzv80IHd1vbtKzFWy4h2I6IKf+H7m+/ brOc5zBunV8jd0ee8pSiMv07ooRBtwOhj5X/KLIjoqYnTWRFGdgj01MKPWcre0QXhhug=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oUwib-0002VD-VL for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2022 22:59:51 +0200 Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2022 22:59:46 +0200 Message-Id: <87ilm27t4t.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #50950 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 50950 29.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 50950 29.1 quit From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:41:41 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. 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