From unknown Sat Sep 13 13:16:11 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#50936 <50936@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#50936 <50936@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages Reply-To: bug#50936 <50936@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 20:16:11 +0000 retitle 50936 "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages reassign 50936 emacs submitter 50936 Stefan Kangas severity 50936 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 07:49:14 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 11:49:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54840 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWH2Q-0005D5-Gg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:49:14 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:51952) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWH2O-0005Cx-5O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:49:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34418) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWH2N-0006Hq-Tp for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:49:11 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f170.google.com ([209.85.215.170]:43529) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWH2M-00033m-J5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:49:11 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f170.google.com with SMTP id r2so9153823pgl.10 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 04:49:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6zA6/BfP3Jz0lX3+bklIBeD+6StSQWlBysIkMbyk3Ak=; b=KPj7LcyN2RxrqwuJbdMdTlgZzPUWG/q/ayDKkjVCIWeFY1cdr3Tj3+QBv3Tq1hJ1D1 PLfMFzu4yriiRLBOrRy+kUHWQDpeQP0kpjQbjU7ffj3vuQORNcCuuRgZTvxFqRtu21fs o8fhtNLm+sLzagNJtPdE8itMg07c3g4DanYYybCF0O6d+uF6fVyhRXhNF2XX+4b5di6S 3vTh16nOGwPfTE9UtBm8KGGyuJrse39PeNXFbcBwgGo/xlGHJd/GidxDSsKrxnUwXD1s C1BJPcsBekcmPc6VVabOqLhx1iZyGtMiRT1Lt5356BTjijpqVN2ob4i7glkLkGqYsebf Z7sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53005RFFYJwa47Y/ojt3VA6M22JzZ/sFpSggLlsbUKT0BJWLZNq+ AZM0LPPIHpTHxLxlkQO8jotJJaE8j2c9cqsrgOlBDWv1ouE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy03OgFCOVh9MAqsxBJVP3lKd0ePpiBvvJTNCmhsQT3WiCnVAtVIE8wa0CjNr06CkoggksTpBd5V/cM79TevXY= X-Received: by 2002:a63:6941:: with SMTP id e62mr9390593pgc.114.1633088948671; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 04:49:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Stefan Kangas Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:48:57 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.215.170; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-f170.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) In (info "(emacs) Help"), I read: If you are looking for a certain feature, but don=E2=80=99t know what = it is called or where to look, we recommend three methods. First, try an apropos command, then try searching the manual index, then look in the FAQ and the package keywords. [...] =E2=80=98C-h p=E2=80=99 This displays the available Emacs packages based on keywords. *Note Package Keywords::. The problem with this is that packages from GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA aren't listed here, so the better place to look should actually be 'M-x list-packages'. Because that's where you'll find important modes for programming languages, etc. I'm not sure if the recommendation should be changed, or simply amended to also mention M-x list-packages. Or perhaps finder should list packages that are not installed? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 08:31:47 2021 Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 12:31:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54886 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhb-0008Pj-K2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:31:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:38836) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHha-0008PX-AA for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:31:46 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33450) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhU-0005fm-Qi; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:31:40 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1253 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWHhU-0007lV-CN; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:31:40 -0400 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:31:20 +0300 Message-Id: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:48:57 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages References: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50936 Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:48:57 +0200 > > In (info "(emacs) Help"), I read: > > If you are looking for a certain feature, but don’t know what it is > called or where to look, we recommend three methods. First, try an > apropos command, then try searching the manual index, then look in the > FAQ and the package keywords. > [...] > ‘C-h p’ > This displays the available Emacs packages based on keywords. > *Note Package Keywords::. > > The problem with this is that packages from GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA > aren't listed here, so the better place to look should actually be > 'M-x list-packages'. Because that's where you'll find important modes > for programming languages, etc. "Modes" and "features" are not the same. The latter refers to features built into Emacs, i.e. to bundled packages. If that isn't clear from the text, we could clarify that, although it should be quite obvious that an Emacs manual talks about bundled features. > I'm not sure if the recommendation should be changed, or simply > amended to also mention M-x list-packages. It's okay to also mention list-packages, but if so, the text should explicitly say that it's for features and packages not included in the core distribution. More importantly, I think we should seriously consider whether such text has its place in that section. That section is supposed to be a cookbook for quickly and efficiently find Emacs features, so it should be limited to methods and commands that accurate, in the sense that they don't present the user with long lists of potential hits. By contrast, list-packages shows a very long list of packages (more than 400 as of this writing), which can easily overwhelm the user. Even "C-h p" doesn't show such long lists (the longest has 50 items), and it is already too long, which is why it's the last in the list of recommended methods. > Or perhaps finder should list packages that are not installed? Wouldn't that make "C-h p" less efficient, for the reason pointed out above? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 09:15:46 2021 Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 13:15:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54955 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWIOA-0003Jy-L0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:15:46 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f176.google.com ([209.85.215.176]:38687) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWIO7-0003Jk-M4 for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:15:45 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f176.google.com with SMTP id s75so9391517pgs.5 for <50936@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 06:15:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f8wHWldXWuZeWqPTNq19161Jr4JvO10+TXJvUBuP7HI=; b=sRnjZdb/ZfS/hHrlABxwqh68PJlTxCT7VvJH4dNkYEEBFk7EzQDnZfxtbejFQpQoKJ snYZaKmx8AJQUUqszf8rPp00MdUEizyBWJmkRLZUjZ/ECcCORpD9VGMA5EfPBwh60Bae NzIcZGBjNbE7FT5emg/fWqTBmy1EBxJcdGeZ+ixCkBRiwncOlEsVuzOOLdbuDWpDrQqw RNemXyMII4wLEXe/kU/B1jN8Pt15sa9sZt9RMr2ZJy5traQTftSGbk1k9C7qEA32dOIm FghGRavcn8BEW3cFctWkYbRfH1YeAQRq81ZmJ2zqHoyMnVVYC1nutoFG73WWTuL+XzA7 Nbtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5337qt6BYdQz/5q/C6lyxSGP7oZbsjJG1vcVywnkuy7tGVb7DYXd aM41UyQ5oJdkTe7LooH/c+yD8pAtNlZOPBzIs0w8XO2Y X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6ULjpkfwfiFTehu1RhjoLIMlNBIQiikphkMLfJS1FHQ/virttv/r29kOFcfkzXg44T5eomy4idDlEzFkfMn4= X-Received: by 2002:a63:4717:: with SMTP id u23mr9611738pga.359.1633094137564; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 06:15:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:15:26 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50936 Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > I'm not sure if the recommendation should be changed, or simply > > amended to also mention M-x list-packages. > > It's okay to also mention list-packages, but if so, the text should > explicitly say that it's for features and packages not included in > the core distribution. I think this sounds like the best solution. > More importantly, I think we should seriously consider whether such > text has its place in that section. That section is supposed to be a > cookbook for quickly and efficiently find Emacs features, so it should > be limited to methods and commands that accurate, in the sense that > they don't present the user with long lists of potential hits. By > contrast, list-packages shows a very long list of packages (more than > 400 as of this writing), which can easily overwhelm the user. Even > "C-h p" doesn't show such long lists (the longest has 50 items), and > it is already too long, which is why it's the last in the list of > recommended methods. That's a problem, but there is IMO no way around that as long as Emacs doesn't bundle packages like php-mode, haskell-mode, eglot or lsp-mode, markdown-mode, etc. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 09:29:19 2021 Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 13:29:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54990 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWIbH-0003fD-8S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:29:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51958) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWIbF-0003es-1W for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:29:17 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35118) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWIb9-0003Hz-Fv; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:29:11 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4819 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWIb7-0001y2-BG; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:29:11 -0400 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 16:28:49 +0300 Message-Id: <83ee94euwe.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:15:26 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages References: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50936 Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 15:15:26 +0200 > Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org > > > More importantly, I think we should seriously consider whether such > > text has its place in that section. That section is supposed to be a > > cookbook for quickly and efficiently find Emacs features, so it should > > be limited to methods and commands that accurate, in the sense that > > they don't present the user with long lists of potential hits. By > > contrast, list-packages shows a very long list of packages (more than > > 400 as of this writing), which can easily overwhelm the user. Even > > "C-h p" doesn't show such long lists (the longest has 50 items), and > > it is already too long, which is why it's the last in the list of > > recommended methods. > > That's a problem, but there is IMO no way around that as long as Emacs > doesn't bundle packages like php-mode, haskell-mode, eglot or > lsp-mode, markdown-mode, etc. I don't understand the relevance, please elaborate. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 10:42:33 2021 Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 14:42:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57084 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWJk9-0006DG-7u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:42:33 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f46.google.com ([209.85.216.46]:41891) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWJk6-0006D3-Qz for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:42:31 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f46.google.com with SMTP id na16-20020a17090b4c1000b0019f5bb661f9so3556402pjb.0 for <50936@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y6JbiydnWI2QKOWakO3yGBvsI1Ei/qRrmuI20rf3X2c=; b=X585uwyFFnZmBb5Zp4NZ1qMiRH6i3lBvVjFS14CL8AhsgRytdJvD9xSVNWrvMrEwR5 1q1ryxRM95R2sJ2LPASlct+8R9pG+B0D1p5bvIm02H6CTaovxX4Ips9zxIbFN8yLc3MD zn3+XNX3V5nYyjGT2HvrGYgDmO2gDtN0jNiLzBQbNSb2D5IbezHbQr434UMrVNU+Yo2K OJ5I/ZdI4hU9MXqh/YaK+JJnVQ2+xcQ8l7qOpHsvgTAa76vLJakCnqWLfglXdWo/5bdK kAPseLN/DnXVw0KinqrW+Hohv6QoMuB3K9DF++RI9k0HJImq6FitH1e1fP852bhPYK+b LHhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531/RAl5UG1HqfPogdClACjE4ZNjtSOSO3dTzBH1/oUueHAfGVSp fSyJkDcZ38BMSsKfLNqsNd5OLy7tNVr3CvmLB2g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw534mlZsNnBRDTgMtlcfXtioLEKPLw6D9exTOwgeykfItudP5WswL6p3rkjyBTTvjN0xVxLONdDeFEEqFJj3g= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5583:: with SMTP id c3mr13365403pji.133.1633099344986; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:42:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee94euwe.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83ee94euwe.fsf@gnu.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:42:13 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50936 Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > That's a problem, but there is IMO no way around that as long as Emacs > > doesn't bundle packages like php-mode, haskell-mode, eglot or > > lsp-mode, markdown-mode, etc. > > I don't understand the relevance, please elaborate. As a user, I come to "Help" to learn how to find more information on e.g. "I want indentation for Haskell code", or "how to enable syntax highlighting for Markdown". The answer to many such questions is that you need to look for and install an external package. Users might also just want to explore existing features in Emacs. For that, 'finder' is useful. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 11:47:07 2021 Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 15:47:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57169 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWKkW-0001hH-5i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 11:47:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59528) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWKkT-0001h1-S6 for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 11:46:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43230) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWKkO-0001FI-Cf; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 11:46:52 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1291 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWKkO-0007KV-4t; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 11:46:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 18:46:36 +0300 Message-Id: <83a6jseoir.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:42:13 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages References: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee94euwe.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50936 Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 16:42:13 +0200 > Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > That's a problem, but there is IMO no way around that as long as Emacs > > > doesn't bundle packages like php-mode, haskell-mode, eglot or > > > lsp-mode, markdown-mode, etc. > > > > I don't understand the relevance, please elaborate. > > As a user, I come to "Help" to learn how to find more information on > e.g. "I want indentation for Haskell code", or "how to enable syntax > highlighting for Markdown". The answer to many such questions is that > you need to look for and install an external package. The manual explains what is available in Emacs. If the user looks for features not in Emacs, it is okay not to find them in our documentation. It is unrealistic for use to provide ways to find features outside of Emacs, because they are too many. What if the user is after something that's not on ELPA? When we figure out how to more closely integrate with ELPA, we should as part of that try to find ways of searching the documentation of those packages as part of our "normal" Help commands. But until we have done that, I see no reason to make that section in the manual less efficient just so we could say we are more complete. I think doing so will result in net loss. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 13:28:51 2021 Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 17:28:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57295 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWML5-0004N9-EW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:28:51 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f173.google.com ([209.85.215.173]:36609) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWML2-0004Mv-0C for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:28:50 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f173.google.com with SMTP id 75so10065646pga.3 for <50936@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:28:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SKoMakcJrCumFutP2Jqs63CwSEWnxdQzFwkQL8MmQM8=; b=izf52WFMz8eLmlJ4co6qEfowgoseeSmr1CUs1Jm7iqZN99vwScA6MopEP5PZlYdmlc PqFKyXOo6vBDYDQsuntElhBmexKhVW7ndEm1J2ImeqqFT90A9yl/XZ/bSsZIuNpYB/bM VLEeX6KT3A/cJppjBKBSWlqFZhdNmApXKNBQmU8is4fG2GWoXMrAurjbBOeWM+iKt0So uCZsy/09YoxbCjw7sT9D9dchV29eBsZb+Z2/0BY6r4SxHKdICEGMKrW0IjJNB9icQ2Wc fDqtehQuiSAohKmH5G/TscfO4ruJRXdBVPmLtJGMSFBdTzDWjYtu6iLMK+bAIQ6zRpPy LM2A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vx/oy/8dO3WuvRrfr/sqGwD+8HgqBr8rf5bkoBfCuTgcagkdX FeXxl7rJ4BvDEod3D3h19+bp8wNN4a2cjMCdgmA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwiW/6B3TMeGmZ+M3wkbtAAc4x2nBJA4bN/d4nQotIabymg7pvBI1E78JRvIhktzjTdSrDkrkyuE6l+I4jJ5SU= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9e90:0:b0:43f:2abb:a504 with SMTP id p16-20020aa79e90000000b0043f2abba504mr12428095pfq.35.1633109322070; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:28:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee94euwe.fsf@gnu.org> <83a6jseoir.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83a6jseoir.fsf@gnu.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 19:28:30 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50936 Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > The manual explains what is available in Emacs. If the user looks for > features not in Emacs, it is okay not to find them in our > documentation. It is unrealistic for use to provide ways to find > features outside of Emacs, because they are too many. I'm not suggesting to list features, but to say that 'list-packages' exist. That command is a part of Emacs. > When we figure out how to more closely integrate with ELPA, we should > as part of that try to find ways of searching the documentation of > those packages as part of our "normal" Help commands. But until we > have done that, I see no reason to make that section in the manual > less efficient just so we could say we are more complete. I think > doing so will result in net loss. I don't think mentioning 'list-packages' would make the manual less efficient. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 01 13:54:43 2021 Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2021 17:54:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57317 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWMk7-00058x-1r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:54:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58792) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mWMk5-00058l-6e for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:54:41 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48350) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWMjz-0005MS-Li; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:54:35 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1243 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWMjz-0001ML-8N; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:54:35 -0400 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 20:54:18 +0300 Message-Id: <83zgrsd41h.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 1 Oct 2021 19:28:30 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages References: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> <83ee94euwe.fsf@gnu.org> <83a6jseoir.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50936 Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 19:28:30 +0200 > Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > The manual explains what is available in Emacs. If the user looks for > > features not in Emacs, it is okay not to find them in our > > documentation. It is unrealistic for use to provide ways to find > > features outside of Emacs, because they are too many. > > I'm not suggesting to list features, but to say that 'list-packages' > exist. That command is a part of Emacs. Depends on what you say there, I guess. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 05 19:27:02 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Oct 2021 23:27:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42092 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXtpu-0001v6-4W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 19:27:02 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f174.google.com ([209.85.210.174]:41774) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXtps-0001u6-3c for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 19:27:01 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f174.google.com with SMTP id p1so787596pfh.8 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 16:27:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=46MXQ8SS9slENUcFdWWU67/BuStb1RPjgkHtrX2WwIQ=; b=LxGgt+qwzvxlLboDQltq0M1mNstBIETIlfVd7nt07WD0hsrIVZ0VkiJhJEqbxciAl9 tMqSEkcyY7tjqcGzDGhIwJTh1sf2FNmY4+Ae5ipJY5vldTVrBmvYheySNpqVglKoSShN W0x3CHPxY5J4Haq9AXi8/6K4pVk5+IwGfuxBfcKkLqVFiFh0CzQace4v4vtL+ABtqrUA fAtRmnxNWfOXkg5Jb4JENKy1fe2kKqSA6VwV+evKUCMvkRCs3JSRAU2x3AGvfxwGLg8e 182MoAZgLJ6XlXxzdlipMU4Bxodd3s0DHpvxKRi2Rgyot7BBOY/9jicBbbn7ToAY07qJ nfqg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533IC+ua1wzKZzbwG6veDKrmL00YMT1YdK0tLE1lIyEeDAGgScQj 09YoQTz2ONWjaK1WZPssEEFAWJyMfD0A3bVEw1OGkZm0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw8Zqi+2A13ovhEHLfkICdXJU2QNv+jKE5PK/yOKeW5zuTEVr/fdG+5NDuUC6dG++j0e7PS8JiRevBvvb/GKg4= X-Received: by 2002:a62:cd0f:0:b0:447:b8fe:d6c2 with SMTP id o15-20020a62cd0f000000b00447b8fed6c2mr33908475pfg.70.1633476414495; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 16:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 19:26:54 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 19:26:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: control message for bug #50936 To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) severity 50936 wishlist quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 03 08:46:46 2022 Received: (at 50936) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Sep 2022 12:46:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41153 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oUSXu-0005xf-96 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2022 08:46:46 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47068) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oUSXs-0005xN-Lv for 50936@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2022 08:46:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=TPsZuaFcTt9ZnTklJc2Fkr00ApCLJHvUQQgxMmbaCKo=; b=oUV+7WnNoY8gKjTq2fQO5zPAUX 9aadm+D68UP8j6YG0EGOzQorZxCM1MUAPJ8UmPuRUQ6glznweX3EvN1d2foEbVW3suTkGCat9dFl9 +l/Ooe+0+/ZvFwrQiJSFvEQVtudjYEHpGo6BOQzlmWI5GGs7bnbIuJ18Ye/9Pa1RWQgs=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oUSXj-0007eu-Fc; Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:46:37 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50936: "(emacs) Help" does say how to find external packages In-Reply-To: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:31:20 +0300") References: <83mtntdizr.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: The Cure's _Boys Don't Cry_: "World War" Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:46:34 +0200 Message-ID: <8735d8d3rp.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> I'm not sure if the recommendation should be changed, or simply >> amended to also mention M-x list-packages. > > It's okay to also mention list-packages, but if so, the text should > explicitly sa [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50936 Cc: 50936@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> I'm not sure if the recommendation should be changed, or simply >> amended to also mention M-x list-packages. > > It's okay to also mention list-packages, but if so, the text should > explicitly say that it's for features and packages not included in > the core distribution. I've now done this in Emacs 29. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 03 08:46:49 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Sep 2022 12:46:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oUSXx-0005xv-H6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2022 08:46:49 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47082) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oUSXv-0005xS-E4 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2022 08:46:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=tCf3TrK5XgRaLuzG5M6o643t2dL+aNfqaUu/Zp2Jb+o=; b=u/sVUqS/bhPTD9KsHz6OMqmfW5 CkXZA+oPYuab5dpjuQPD+NPz2cujyTaZpQ/p8vZHopOR3FTmMl9X4wWmQ6tiYRiXuHlQfuTfaugH1 lmQ7MmapSf6cbjsScYFZwERhQwLIecRf1V8amuLcFWuGRVNX3nRDTBmApMfohWxus7/w=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oUSXn-0007f1-M3 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:46:41 +0200 Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:46:39 +0200 Message-Id: <871qssd3rk.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #50936 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: close 50936 29.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 50936 29.1 quit From unknown Sat Sep 13 13:16:11 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 11:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator