From unknown Wed Jun 18 23:11:32 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#50881 <50881@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#50881 <50881@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer Reply-To: bug#50881 <50881@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 06:11:32 +0000 retitle 50881 C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer reassign 50881 emacs submitter 50881 Stefan Kangas severity 50881 minor thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 28 19:10:48 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Sep 2021 23:10:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47271 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVMFL-0003Fd-Ur for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 19:10:48 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:42318) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVMFK-0003FW-Tv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 19:10:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56812) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVMFK-0001JI-P4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 19:10:46 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f181.google.com ([209.85.215.181]:37559) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVMFJ-00022u-BN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 19:10:46 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 17so683648pgp.4 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=cIiKfu9Xp145CaWfiC/eT6ZZhuJ5fNKYQeIN7NShLkk=; b=VQC4Nzj/ujVyh840L082sJ4RoC0O1udzrzeoGsGwJNQu2HReVA+pmj17S1nnDmlfwr 95LnoR8g7lKW+LepxM9t1CHjpV196Ac8vgNVKYDyvBTJF+rYwrHc4C6DI+M8Bg08zBg7 VSAP8zdF6MEWfKyCNZvPVQDIOglGWu8pAwQKB5JeWfpClZV/A+gc/8XqcykikWswpbrD aw0fEpCciZQH1fTpifSS00n5Zomap5h3cEDuOCnU9WPSA0247jEMAc+UydKkONxUi52D 0t+vYRtwy/WGMaVbE4+7zIaMOHFWkIj8ucKm83h+HibNvYx1sXEHeG0BRE+9IiOSe/FT cS0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532H1AybYnzUdxQmoRsWfKMsuQFbdgudjIm3qtY7+zvv7aNZZrEt G5QUYdOuTxb2xNJC9cbCH3cGSNZip3MUWei4TTZefnT6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw3Jq5wO/RJHx8k4YKQcPeU1f4Rbrut6w0JdzionfuIG6CYcWedCJdmwkcGjlAu9j66+LGv29OOYLAumlao3Kk= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9e90:0:b0:43f:2abb:a504 with SMTP id p16-20020aa79e90000000b0043f2abba504mr279667pfq.35.1632870643671; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:10:43 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:10:43 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.215.181; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-f181.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 6 X-Spam_score: 0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_20=-0.001, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GAPPY_SUBJECT=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Severity: minor Steps to reproduce: 0. emacs -Q 1. C-h C-s f RET You are now looking at an empty " *Metahelp*" buffer. My expectation is that the help screen gets displayed before the search starts. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 03:09:33 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 07:09:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47640 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVTif-0006rK-H1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:09:33 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53188) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVTid-0006r6-JG for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:09:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ekV/yEor/VZTGOnkkelS/ZMY87x6qokROBWp6F2bPgA=; b=gIovDkFQMRG3YOdKEcrKLUM9V4 gJ0O/pwSMG7Mr60ioozu1XQ0BNHiDSzx+9N4mDBMrRBCH7bUiJEyXCkWRP+65h/VIb5es00R7mJKY 0kfxdn/7TDuBscIN/QCWo0Ov6tp3uOalFv5mmChHj0DYkoRe7uRTEnYsqKiZ+GZUkNes=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVTiV-0005kM-8g; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:09:25 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer References: X-Now-Playing: Laurie Freelove's _Smells Like Truth_: "Arms of a Dream" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:09:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:10:43 -0700") Message-ID: <87y27fc0yn.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > Severity: minor > > Steps to reproduce: > 0. emacs -Q > 1. C-h C-s f RET > > You are now looking at an empty " *Metahelp*" buffer. > > My expectation is that the help screen gets displayed before th [...] Content analysis details: (-0.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 2.0 GAPPY_SUBJECT Subject: contains G.a.p.p.y-T.e.x.t X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > Severity: minor > > Steps to reproduce: > 0. emacs -Q > 1. C-h C-s f RET > > You are now looking at an empty " *Metahelp*" buffer. > > My expectation is that the help screen gets displayed before the search > starts. Yup. And the doc string isn't very helpful: Search forward "help window". Which sounds like it's talking about the *Help* window, not the `C-h C-h' help-for-help window. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 03:20:24 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 07:20:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47661 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVTtA-0000rQ-Et for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:20:24 -0400 Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.194]:43429) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVTt8-0000rA-R9 for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:20:23 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: juri@linkov.net) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C37F4000B; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:20:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Juri Linkov To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer Organization: LINKOV.NET References: Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:54:20 +0300 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:10:43 -0700") Message-ID: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) > Steps to reproduce: > 0. emacs -Q > 1. C-h C-s f RET > > You are now looking at an empty " *Metahelp*" buffer. > > My expectation is that the help screen gets displayed before the search > starts. I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights matching parens on the first line. This not only makes no sense, but also distracting for users seeking help. 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 03:29:25 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 07:29:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47677 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVU1t-00015Y-2Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:29:25 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53270) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVU1r-00015L-5M for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:29:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=KHIhYI+0TbKe8iXk98hSw0bd3M9yGbTIgKxWQ+OYZOM=; b=cPuyJ8hH0kn93JwClehZebTx1c yIfHU3E3mHYnMTRT8KpCOCfJ5anH/ZrVcotSbYwIirinNAYA0YTzjmk62i3Ntr1caDQRippK5V/Z4 67y7roPKt7tq0Og28f36656xC7Hc4t0E3X+g8zwxfFu9Hms6qxlYgMB46LjhnDQEx1VY=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVU1h-0006N6-59; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:29:16 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer References: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEVVTEufg2G4urT/ ///wIFsAAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+UJHQccJ2MMMxEAAAGcSURBVCjPLZExr9NAEITn Il8kUhkURyQddPArzlKCBJWf5D0pV1E8InK/IiAo6F6RQ8LVA+EI769k1uDqPs/e3swumqhZS5RY 9Ib1yUBcKlnRJ1W9BmzK+QT5Fo+pA5qSz3BfLrWAn+QM/0YPPc+VTxlV/LOdwR0noA2NVTm3nVC1 PfYzJUX1vhcrAww+irAztoiKlYo8EHK3u2FHL6Po9dzl0eBMR5N8ygK6zFk1d+7o8HQQCnFYtleP AImqMi73BDr8PuhIr51D1YgObMC/NTyBnwRKs3KbgtuDRire//0KThYlsizehndoPmxKghfhQzLe bUZCFMkax7tnVNzyB9ulIvdlC7cSgpSeuYCdTMoY/X1DaNpDUi99Dab3bTsQuhqCmsZTbvpQM4Cr OIxsA+bBQjB6mKe1ruBOg51tFeuaykj6J2KwMjcPGc8/m+IPM1jsC54c57pfjB3Q7GzkeElALfMy XTTlhcCWtuAVvZy+BpPcW4Of6eKsrl6RHv3czK1f65QfAXtokXQYbXt2Z8Eb/r8xOtAHFyzLX//O oXL06k+qAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTA5LTI5VDA3OjI4OjM5KzAwOjAw4W+8qwAA ACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0wOS0yOVQwNzoyODozOSswMDowMJAyBBcAAAAASUVORK5C YII= X-Now-Playing: Laurie Freelove's _Smells Like Truth_: "White Hail" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:29:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (Juri Linkov's message of "Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:54:20 +0300") Message-ID: <87r1d7c01l.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Juri Linkov writes: > I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights > matching parens on the first line. This not only makes no sense, > but also distracting for users seeking help. > 'show-paren-mod [...] Content analysis details: (-0.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 2.0 GAPPY_SUBJECT Subject: contains G.a.p.p.y-T.e.x.t X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) Juri Linkov writes: > I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights > matching parens on the first line. This not only makes no sense, > but also distracting for users seeking help. > 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers. Yup. Perhaps disable it in `special-mode'? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 06:45:40 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 10:45:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47840 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVX5n-00068w-WC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:45:40 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f52.google.com ([209.85.216.52]:38884) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVX5m-00068i-53 for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:45:38 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f52.google.com with SMTP id g13-20020a17090a3c8d00b00196286963b9so3897684pjc.3 for <50881@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:45:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=O3cbvuN8H2EZvq4MtZOIQ8rPcxZ3b4l+Yy13T53s2oo=; b=HPg1W8iRDmNZgx9F0sAAx/rK2zsERfkxnCkq29kwSZkflARpd7CUChxlZJ2PcCmN69 AvJnncDkEq3RvYHrFQ7x6p/3PSgzgArGFdrEygV6c6GqiI7iGEr1UetGfK9BLgWZq6Be iv44bUqF/p4E+EQICOiL+Zpz8krlkkXbjIUgcWmCiV7Cc6WgL12SpYMUogNCR/JDl0LE IH2Xuw48tIgLNqPu6qnKY9AcZfnBojhPjjO9bXC2y0u6uyXNMDAfFTh5kvkBNkXQ+wM7 SjZN24s5iRrF1rE5VocgVj2Kh8uaq93vXaSvp82j1IK4Zqj/F92O4fCoN1AXmg0MJFpa oaxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530flciyvbSPU+lPvcG/A/0kwkpoCFt0GHv7EM1bZkbF/xUWhuwZ KfilOCK3GA3t8gEuaP+WEUM2Gr9J6sJUgGC2AF8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNeajaD/laZ0IZ74N9D3qaHuTmFCDv8aXc7PDutq9Exi5nO8ZzSNSfAxQghtMCljfF4c7+u52E/VIYTMvbBkw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d505:b0:13e:b49:9d8d with SMTP id b5-20020a170902d50500b0013e0b499d8dmr9680004plg.22.1632912332238; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:45:31 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87r1d7c01l.fsf@gnus.org> References: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87r1d7c01l.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:45:31 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: Juri Linkov , 50881@debbugs.gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Juri Linkov writes: > >> I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights >> matching parens on the first line. This not only makes no sense, >> but also distracting for users seeking help. >> 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers. > > Yup. Perhaps disable it in `special-mode'? Sounds good to me, but are there any special-modes where it is useful? Perhaps we can just disable it in `special-mode', and if we think of some modes where it seems really useful, we re-enable it for them? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 07:52:01 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 11:52:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47953 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVY80-0003nx-T9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:52:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43262) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVY7z-0003nb-3Y for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:51:59 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52920) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVY7q-0002Wk-Bi; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:51:51 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4628 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVY7p-00037K-V4; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:51:50 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:51:56 +0300 Message-Id: <83pmsriopv.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Juri Linkov In-Reply-To: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (message from Juri Linkov on Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:54:20 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer References: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) > From: Juri Linkov > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:54:20 +0300 > Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org > > I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights > matching parens on the first line. This not only makes no sense, Please elaborate why it makes no sense. > but also distracting for users seeking help. > 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers. If the problem is with *Help* and other documentation buffers, why turn it off in _all_ read-only buffers? The latter is a much broader category. For example, debugging Lisp with Edebug makes the source buffer read-only. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 11:36:45 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 15:36:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49907 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbdV-0001ws-Gu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:36:45 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58706) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbdU-0001wZ-5e for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:36:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mf45GofsvRbVr3Jv1JhjTTAZfxEqLXH1DwKGJUnizks=; b=eLmrnUG9vcKlM8iGw1TvgOXmbD LnoEyUsBI/JZ80eM64lCcRZLqGgOMBhtCYH2EGzot75M/hRy1fEsIyOUDxmzEten+gOvz1ghQMDab 4l+vQJz/AoOHe1YKJekOpkzxhYlTdrJdm4VOr09rLAtQvTr07WGxvZ8PidntniGJbrKU=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbdK-0002DN-26; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:36:36 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer References: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87r1d7c01l.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEU8HhebQyPEp7D/ //9ZDXQPAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+UJHQ8WNv1AqtEAAAFHSURBVCjPfZCxTsNADIZ/ oxwDUyrlJB4B9SnupIahk086D83UlT4FDDAwtQPMBZUqyVNiXyhVGbCixJ///3yO0QBBfgIWfsq9 5fWvMmPMprQREMMVG9cFIHpK7VRgETTNVQtKSoEkZO9AkbMwCaNyYGIvSZWQFdzKCZG0jh1ENrsC IgbqifpINmhjgbxw8GkVKrUBTiBULs8z1kG9k7Xek+TBpo7dIXGUdmWw7IakE0hnMB97H+wg6y9s xl6CjltRwqIft5FhE6raD3fa28UCH/0+w8YxOB4f1UUTjJ9P+q+IucD7TpVMk/LaBm1GkgX1uHy2 5TjJut7x+m3at8Ghy1wUOzMMaYuJ1PZ1rwoFWx3G/rbWum5cP/PjwDWqx6Y2Mx1gHTzjHD78hVOh sVfERazxf1x0wxncucioT8Wblz2dPE6TqwLfVH5km5kx+hMAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIw MjEtMDktMjlUMTU6MjI6NTQrMDA6MDCsphAYAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA5LTI5 VDE1OjIyOjU0KzAwOjAw3fuopAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: The Notwist's _12_: "12" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:36:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:45:31 -0700") Message-ID: <87v92j9ywx.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > Sounds good to me, but are there any special-modes where it is useful? > > Perhaps we can just disable it in `special-mode', and if we think of > some modes where it seems really useful, we re-enabl [...] Content analysis details: (-0.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 2.0 GAPPY_SUBJECT Subject: contains G.a.p.p.y-T.e.x.t X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: Juri Linkov , 50881@debbugs.gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > Sounds good to me, but are there any special-modes where it is useful? > > Perhaps we can just disable it in `special-mode', and if we think of > some modes where it seems really useful, we re-enable it for them? I can't think of any special modes where it's useful, so I think that sounds like a plan. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 11:44:08 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 15:44:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49925 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbke-0002A5-3i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:44:08 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58810) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbkc-000291-P6 for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:44:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WfU/w0nQvQC6WRVk6YQXHY/OmSJ6ZPtK6d2KDk96HAk=; b=iRk1WmAJE2DsP+lUtI4MjTftNB kLysM7ZdYImpOKZD85iFKncNkH3fhWPBbwZ8gxt8/I85MhNDWWZQzK/5j3X3Vzx2WDMUan5HTPNQC p1uF46/H/cgAaSN1WcIESKEWE92yakBe/7Qq9dmd+SmmJoUsQd3XEdeo338clnDO9y1U=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbkT-0002Ip-RS; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:44:00 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer References: <87y27fc0yn.fsf@gnus.org> X-Now-Playing: The Notwist's _Day 7_: "Your Signs" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:43:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87y27fc0yn.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:09:20 +0200") Message-ID: <87r1d79yki.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Yup. And the doc string isn't very helpful: > > Search forward "help window". > > Which sounds like it's talking about the *Help* window, not the `C-h > C-h' help-for-help window. Content analysis details: (-0.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 2.0 GAPPY_SUBJECT Subject: contains G.a.p.p.y-T.e.x.t X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Yup. And the doc string isn't very helpful: > > Search forward "help window". > > Which sounds like it's talking about the *Help* window, not the `C-h > C-h' help-for-help window. I've now fixed the doc string, and I've made `C-h C-s' just signal an error if the Metahelp buffer doesn't exist. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 11:44:14 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 15:44:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49928 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbkk-0002AO-B2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:44:14 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58826) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbki-0002A4-RS for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:44:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ygEI/lrriS6FCI+jCJcIsKC2OPaQ2FvPhH/fU04bXmU=; b=Diehx2ysK1Vh6Lbj14b4DNBOXD +m2OTUAGGXzIKa+JpcBTyRTxh3J4E5bTZCjJaFwWoMHV67EmeVf5iVvszTFmLo0jQOAfzzNKoFcwp rPs86RXn14OwlBeBeJMKiDmUa7s3zrDkYgWCYjU+8ViJu6JqYhqEPHsN3JsV6ihwK5Kg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVbka-0002Iz-QE for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:44:06 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:44:03 +0200 Message-Id: <87pmsr9ykc.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #50881 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 50881 28.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 50881 28.1 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 12:07:02 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 16:07:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49968 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVc6m-00051u-22 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:07:02 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f178.google.com ([209.85.210.178]:33777) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVc6X-00051P-RJ for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 12:06:58 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f178.google.com with SMTP id s16so2410402pfk.0 for <50881@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:06:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ufWE1J5uiaKJxsm3fuxfMOv/QvCK0PPzufNCgkqzlco=; b=MNLrUh1qIgu7fS51+thT/lyB+MA2bXj9veFEmLzZVIvwOQqiWmazjgTLw6I+/om2q4 6282s6aVs6wr7084qubX8oo+tbRdIN7eT+PU+WjCv8/e6QO9TPhXqk+9QRdHvhvOIJTQ cUpkoBN0wLhxa/UP/4k6ouTDVfmssZHl4AfT4EXPkZjZiVwt5d5dC9FXbgUH1xMmOHV9 afLAoRW9jlh/0JGWUp0zp+DDUYh+WLk5y+4cafbHrBv/KAzTf9ts0K92Cz/6sTSFCA8x iD32hv39bVnEnEjl6otD4lpW8qvh0L5K2ehGiG+VbWpcv3IO9ypPdm3GmFiBX6yjcTbS etxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ZrHg7V3a1I6lO5fno64CcSd4KGsbaG4jzWpsyha4pOKOLOMfp zCUC81stGRjl/sbEfXNjWtbiUhvJ3Z78r5uXRnzZFwmE X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzKdkb//Wfy++r8WEQBR3tM9fS4SRw6pR+tzjJZA5TxSeEnL9LA9ajO6yjfmm+BUy/hG7mdX6cLZktUu6hsD8E= X-Received: by 2002:a62:cd0f:0:b0:447:b8fe:d6c2 with SMTP id o15-20020a62cd0f000000b00447b8fed6c2mr648246pfg.70.1632931599457; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:06:38 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87r1d79yki.fsf@gnus.org> References: <87y27fc0yn.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1d79yki.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:06:38 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I've now fixed the doc string, and I've made `C-h C-s' just signal an > error if the Metahelp buffer doesn't exist. Thanks. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8b4df036-2a46-4ab8-0dd0-08d9836bc176 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Sep 2021 17:08:27.9089 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: eLA5MB5ybGbZcTjcoQqTq/hH+pFyanQlNN1xwMj9jAKNvFlbIGQUYiX/6pncF6HMGX1/48PFhpZMnsG6MX1VVQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR10MB2966 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10122 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=420 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2109290098 X-Proofpoint-GUID: lW09N-miTA92rc4NAHvuWyHCrGSna-VJ X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: lW09N-miTA92rc4NAHvuWyHCrGSna-VJ X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: "50881@debbugs.gnu.org" <50881@debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) > > 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers. >=20 > Yup. Perhaps disable it in `special-mode'? Huh? Why would we disable it in all read-only buffers? That would be a backward-incompatible change (and for the worse). I count on it in read-only buffers. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 13:12:35 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 17:12:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50077 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVd8E-0002lS-Up for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:12:35 -0400 Received: from relay12.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.178.232]:56929) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVd8C-0002lE-Ef for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:12:34 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: juri@linkov.net) by relay12.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A26B2200003; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:12:25 +0000 (UTC) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83pmsriopv.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:58:08 +0300 In-Reply-To: <83pmsriopv.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:51:56 +0300") Message-ID: <87ee97gwfr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) >> 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers. > > If the problem is with *Help* and other documentation buffers, why > turn it off in _all_ read-only buffers? The latter is a much broader > category. For example, debugging Lisp with Edebug makes the source > buffer read-only. Maybe with Edebug it makes sense, I don't know because I immediately disabled it globally, and noticed the problem only while trying to reproduce the reported bug with 'emacs -Q'. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 13:53:23 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 17:53:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50142 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVdlj-0008FK-1V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:53:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48568) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVdlg-0008F3-A9 for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:53:22 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:38806) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVdlZ-0007N6-Fs; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:53:13 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3243 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVdlY-0000ui-Ew; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:53:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:53:21 +0300 Message-Id: <83wnmzgtf2.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Juri Linkov In-Reply-To: <87ee97gwfr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (message from Juri Linkov on Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:58:08 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer References: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83pmsriopv.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee97gwfr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: stefan@marxist.se, 50881@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:58:08 +0300 > > >> 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers. > > > > If the problem is with *Help* and other documentation buffers, why > > turn it off in _all_ read-only buffers? The latter is a much broader > > category. For example, debugging Lisp with Edebug makes the source > > buffer read-only. > > Maybe with Edebug it makes sense, I don't know because I immediately > disabled it globally, and noticed the problem only while trying > to reproduce the reported bug with 'emacs -Q'. That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are definitely good for everyone else. They aren't. Please, people, just this once, let it go. We just flipped this setting on; please let the dust settle at least for a while before you come up with reasons why it should be turned back off. It's very easy to turn it off in your customizations, so if you cannot tolerate it, just turn it off and move on. Let's limit any changes related to show-paren-mode to fixing bugs, like that recursive-load problem someone just reported. Everything else let's please filter out. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ca743626-ff74-47b4-6cd0-08d98372a940 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Sep 2021 17:57:53.8050 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 9d8i5dZFg6JXcWg5MlKqs7v6vJbpLAVpLSorgtpMvOmNMoreNJUsr0uGCBcmNUFaQg6vgcRQa9a78l2iy7cHmg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR10MB2792 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10122 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=444 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2109290103 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: MM8TubMlwkq0XO3bENjMgqtZKggEFfBW X-Proofpoint-GUID: MM8TubMlwkq0XO3bENjMgqtZKggEFfBW X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: "50881@debbugs.gnu.org" <50881@debbugs.gnu.org>, "stefan@marxist.se" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) > That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are > definitely good for everyone else. They aren't. 100% agreement, FWIW. And that goes also for the descendant bugs, 50894 and 50895. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 15:21:07 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 19:21:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50305 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVf8d-0004OS-Nh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:21:07 -0400 Received: from relay1-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.193]:52093) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVf8Y-0004NX-8e for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:21:06 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: juri@linkov.net) by relay1-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DCBC5240006; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:20:53 +0000 (UTC) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83pmsriopv.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee97gwfr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83wnmzgtf2.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:20:10 +0300 In-Reply-To: <83wnmzgtf2.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:53:21 +0300") Message-ID: <874ka3dwgn.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) > That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are > definitely good for everyone else. They aren't. This is not a personal preference. I looked through the eyes of a beginner who types 'C-h C-h' to get help, and the first thing the user sees is that parens are highlighted on the first line: (Type or to scroll, C-s to search, or q to exit.) This is what we trying to tell the user with this information: Look, it's very important that the first paren on the first line matches its closing paren, so we highlighted these parens for you. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6d976cc7-31a3-4c37-5f69-08d98382b103 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Sep 2021 19:52:38.6808 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0oqtIRrGATkg8bmmpHFbO8/4Afa15T2tWuAytEccO5R+C9MZPuxjxiqJk1av923pF/NJX5QOQf5FhYvE7QCm3A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR10MB2965 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10122 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=539 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2109290116 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 6sNAYEVuLR6qfnU_kFcVm8hy7AepH-nX X-Proofpoint-GUID: 6sNAYEVuLR6qfnU_kFcVm8hy7AepH-nX X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: "50881@debbugs.gnu.org" <50881@debbugs.gnu.org>, "stefan@marxist.se" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) > > That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are > > definitely good for everyone else. They aren't. >=20 > This is not a personal preference. I looked through the eyes of > a beginner who types 'C-h C-h' to get help, and the first thing > the user sees is that parens are highlighted on the first line: >=20 > (Type or to scroll, C-s to search, or q to exit.) >=20 > This is what we trying to tell the user with this information: >=20 > Look, it's very important that the first paren on the first line > matches its closing paren, so we highlighted these parens for you. Mountain out of a mole hill? Or maybe the new-user takeaway is that Emacs highlights matching parens by default. ("Hey, that can be useful!") From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 30 03:03:42 2021 Received: (at 50881) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Sep 2021 07:03:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51266 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVq6X-0001uL-St for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 03:03:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56788) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVq6K-0001tt-Ly for 50881@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 03:03:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33552) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVq6D-0001NR-Hb; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 03:03:23 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3786 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVq6C-0005vQ-6d; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 03:03:21 -0400 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:03:28 +0300 Message-Id: <83mtnuh7en.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Juri Linkov In-Reply-To: <874ka3dwgn.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (message from Juri Linkov on Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:20:10 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer References: <87y27fc31m.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83pmsriopv.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee97gwfr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83wnmzgtf2.fsf@gnu.org> <874ka3dwgn.fsf@mail.linkov.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50881 Cc: 50881@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: stefan@marxist.se, 50881@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:20:10 +0300 > > > That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are > > definitely good for everyone else. They aren't. > > This is not a personal preference. I looked through the eyes of > a beginner I don't think we can pretend to look at this through the eyes of a beginner. We are too far from that, all of us here. > who types 'C-h C-h' to get help, and the first thing > the user sees is that parens are highlighted on the first line: > > (Type or to scroll, C-s to search, or q to exit.) Yes, and I see no problem with this. So yes, it is personal preference of yours. Let's hear the beginners themselves when Emacs 28.1 hits the street. Until then, let's stand by our own decision: to enable this mode by default. From unknown Wed Jun 18 23:11:32 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:24:07 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator