GNU bug report logs - #50881
C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:10:43 -0700

Severity: minor

Steps to reproduce:
0. emacs -Q
1. C-h C-s f RET

You are now looking at an empty " *Metahelp*" buffer.

My expectation is that the help screen gets displayed before the search
starts.

Message #8 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:09:20 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> Severity: minor
>
> Steps to reproduce:
> 0. emacs -Q
> 1. C-h C-s f RET
>
> You are now looking at an empty " *Metahelp*" buffer.
>
> My expectation is that the help screen gets displayed before the search
> starts.

Yup.  And the doc string isn't very helpful:

Search forward "help window".

Which sounds like it's talking about the *Help* window, not the `C-h
C-h' help-for-help window.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #11 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:54:20 +0300

> Steps to reproduce:
> 0. emacs -Q
> 1. C-h C-s f RET
>
> You are now looking at an empty " *Metahelp*" buffer.
>
> My expectation is that the help screen gets displayed before the search
> starts.

I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights
matching parens on the first line.  This not only makes no sense,
but also distracting for users seeking help.
'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers.

Message #14 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:29:10 +0200

Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:

> I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights
> matching parens on the first line.  This not only makes no sense,
> but also distracting for users seeking help.
> 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers.

Yup.  Perhaps disable it in `special-mode'?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #17 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>, 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:45:31 -0700

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:
>
>> I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights
>> matching parens on the first line.  This not only makes no sense,
>> but also distracting for users seeking help.
>> 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers.
>
> Yup.  Perhaps disable it in `special-mode'?

Sounds good to me, but are there any special-modes where it is useful?

Perhaps we can just disable it in `special-mode', and if we think of
some modes where it seems really useful, we re-enable it for them?

Message #20 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:51:56 +0300

> From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:54:20 +0300
> Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I tried to reproduce this, then typed 'C-h C-h', and it highlights
> matching parens on the first line.  This not only makes no sense,

Please elaborate why it makes no sense.

> but also distracting for users seeking help.
> 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers.

If the problem is with *Help* and other documentation buffers, why
turn it off in _all_ read-only buffers?  The latter is a much broader
category.  For example, debugging Lisp with Edebug makes the source
buffer read-only.

Message #23 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>, 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:36:30 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> Sounds good to me, but are there any special-modes where it is useful?
>
> Perhaps we can just disable it in `special-mode', and if we think of
> some modes where it seems really useful, we re-enable it for them?

I can't think of any special modes where it's useful, so I think that
sounds like a plan.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #26 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:43:57 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Yup.  And the doc string isn't very helpful:
>
> Search forward "help window".
>
> Which sounds like it's talking about the *Help* window, not the `C-h
> C-h' help-for-help window.

I've now fixed the doc string, and I've made `C-h C-s' just signal an
error if the Metahelp buffer doesn't exist.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #31 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:06:38 -0700

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> I've now fixed the doc string, and I've made `C-h C-s' just signal an
> error if the Metahelp buffer doesn't exist.

Thanks.

Message #34 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: "50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
 Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*"
 buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:08:27 +0000

> > 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers.
> 
> Yup.  Perhaps disable it in `special-mode'?

Huh?  Why would we disable it in all read-only buffers?
That would be a backward-incompatible change (and for
the worse).  I count on it in read-only buffers.

Message #37 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:58:08 +0300

>> 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers.
>
> If the problem is with *Help* and other documentation buffers, why
> turn it off in _all_ read-only buffers?  The latter is a much broader
> category.  For example, debugging Lisp with Edebug makes the source
> buffer read-only.

Maybe with Edebug it makes sense, I don't know because I immediately
disabled it globally, and noticed the problem only while trying
to reproduce the reported bug with 'emacs -Q'.

Message #40 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:53:21 +0300

> From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
> Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se,  50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:58:08 +0300
> 
> >> 'show-paren-mode' should be disabled in all read-only buffers.
> >
> > If the problem is with *Help* and other documentation buffers, why
> > turn it off in _all_ read-only buffers?  The latter is a much broader
> > category.  For example, debugging Lisp with Edebug makes the source
> > buffer read-only.
> 
> Maybe with Edebug it makes sense, I don't know because I immediately
> disabled it globally, and noticed the problem only while trying
> to reproduce the reported bug with 'emacs -Q'.

That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are
definitely good for everyone else.  They aren't.

Please, people, just this once, let it go.  We just flipped this
setting on; please let the dust settle at least for a while before you
come up with reasons why it should be turned back off.  It's very easy
to turn it off in your customizations, so if you cannot tolerate it,
just turn it off and move on.  Let's limit any changes related to
show-paren-mode to fixing bugs, like that recursive-load problem
someone just reported.  Everything else let's please filter out.

Message #43 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: "50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
 "stefan <at> marxist.se" <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*"
 buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:57:53 +0000

> That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are
> definitely good for everyone else.  They aren't.

100% agreement, FWIW.  And that goes also for
the descendant bugs, 50894 and 50895.

Message #46 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:20:10 +0300

> That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are
> definitely good for everyone else.  They aren't.

This is not a personal preference.  I looked through the eyes of
a beginner who types 'C-h C-h' to get help, and the first thing
the user sees is that parens are highlighted on the first line:

  (Type <PageDown> or <PageUp> to scroll, C-s to search, or q to exit.)

This is what we trying to tell the user with this information:

  Look, it's very important that the first paren on the first line
  matches its closing paren, so we highlighted these parens for you.

Message #49 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
 "stefan <at> marxist.se" <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*"
 buffer
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:52:38 +0000

> > That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are
> > definitely good for everyone else.  They aren't.
> 
> This is not a personal preference.  I looked through the eyes of
> a beginner who types 'C-h C-h' to get help, and the first thing
> the user sees is that parens are highlighted on the first line:
> 
>   (Type <PageDown> or <PageUp> to scroll, C-s to search, or q to exit.)
> 
> This is what we trying to tell the user with this information:
> 
>   Look, it's very important that the first paren on the first line
>   matches its closing paren, so we highlighted these parens for you.

Mountain out of a mole hill?

Or maybe the new-user takeaway is that Emacs highlights
matching parens by default.  ("Hey, that can be useful!")

Message #52 received at 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: 50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#50881: C-h C-s leads to empty " *Metahelp*" buffer
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:03:28 +0300

> From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
> Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se,  50881 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:20:10 +0300
> 
> > That's the problem with thinking your personal preferences are
> > definitely good for everyone else.  They aren't.
> 
> This is not a personal preference.  I looked through the eyes of
> a beginner

I don't think we can pretend to look at this through the eyes of a
beginner.  We are too far from that, all of us here.

> who types 'C-h C-h' to get help, and the first thing
> the user sees is that parens are highlighted on the first line:
> 
>   (Type <PageDown> or <PageUp> to scroll, C-s to search, or q to exit.)

Yes, and I see no problem with this.  So yes, it is personal
preference of yours.  Let's hear the beginners themselves when Emacs
28.1 hits the street.  Until then, let's stand by our own decision: to
enable this mode by default.

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