From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 15 02:28:13 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 06:28:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50600 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQOOy-0001eI-Kd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 02:28:13 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:32936) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQOOw-0001eA-Ua for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 02:28:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44710) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQOOw-0003Ka-IE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 02:28:10 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f181.google.com ([209.85.214.181]:43855) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQOOu-0006dk-M7 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 02:28:10 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f181.google.com with SMTP id v1so970708plo.10 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 23:28:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uPAZ/QVPnG8c9kl9Wl3b7pL+uRQbxBT2q4xYtXlOkBY=; b=JOnFdkluJypVkXUTYEMhVRdJ0FAJIkBTZyCgmy3RBBzWcxEQCMPrQLE89MDDn8Lmb5 YO4c86Ok/ukqKUvLaHZWSO9igPjqeIFlyBGvU8CeGwy3aTSwq6vVlHMc6ALcc6x38Uq9 9Ue0DDZp1IgfY7gcjDXcq9BpynD7HPwqshn7a2CkMlkK9tsEbu2VLS7/V9juYbZX6ZZe fWI5hs0jCDGjaHk4LGzQ+x1Z1GlGLx1JWzzN8bTinA9Tn13odccIT+Qt6zZOeb4HmWD6 PjCK6U8AaTrmQaz2jS4AhsBxHKu+CXi4NU1UQrghqcgkoBs+uX5SDXZdPbEnFkFJZ4mY YzvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XuPys8x98TYMMXGlPbFNQN+gi23+NoznDb+zdMMkXcBfAv/1q CXUVi66u+yAR2/H5Wt9j3q3wLcVrgWyEVWl6woYiqpEatmc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTDtM4ziVbUgmSH+YIc6beHrHgybD6PlU3hbGvqyiLb1d4KOwE+4gAw3Ip86HSKra0ICbJPnjGk87GtFJm4a0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:185:b0:13a:7ef0:8f43 with SMTP id z5-20020a170903018500b0013a7ef08f43mr18423290plg.32.1631687287171; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 23:28:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Stefan Kangas Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:27:55 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0000000000002308b305cc02cd9e" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.214.181; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-f181.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) --0000000000002308b305cc02cd9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Severity: minor In `(elisp) Documentation Tips', we read: It is not practical to use =E2=80=98\\[...]=E2=80=99 very many times, = because display of the documentation string will become slow. So use this to describe the most important commands in your major mode, and then use =E2=80=98\\{...}=E2=80=99 to display the rest of the mode=E2= =80=99s keymap. When testing this on my machine on a docstring with a large number of substitutions (107), I get the following (in "emacs -Q"): (progn (require 'ibuffer) (let ((times 100)) (/ (car (benchmark-run times (documentation 'ibuffer-mode))) times))) =3D> 0.00499586008 When I increase the number of substitutions in that docstring to around 100= 0 (by duplicating the docstring 10 times), I get: =3D> 0.05029239337 This is 10 times slower, but still fast enough that it does not matter much= . It also suggests that this is O(N) in time. My conclusion is that the above recommendation in `(elisp) Documentation Ti= ps' is irrelevant these days, and I suggest to remove it. Please see the attached patch. --0000000000002308b305cc02cd9e Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset="US-ASCII"; name="0001-Don-t-recommend-against-using-.-substitutions-many-t.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Don-t-recommend-against-using-.-substitutions-many-t.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: f_ktl4gm180 RnJvbSBkM2JjYTJkNjBmMDc4NzZhNTYyMzc4ZjFiNTY4NDQ3NzBhYjg3NDA0IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBTdGVmYW4gS2FuZ2FzIDxzdGVmYW5AbWFyeGlzdC5zZT4KRGF0 ZTogV2VkLCAxNSBTZXAgMjAyMSAwODoxODoyMCArMDIwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIERvbid0 IHJlY29tbWVuZCBhZ2FpbnN0IHVzaW5nICJcWy4uLl0iIHN1YnN0aXR1dGlvbnMgbWFueQogdGlt ZXMKCiogZG9jL2xpc3ByZWYvdGlwcy50ZXhpIChEb2N1bWVudGF0aW9uIFRpcHMpOiBEb24ndCBy ZWNvbW1lbmQgYWdhaW5zdAp1c2luZyBtYW55ICJcWy4uLl0iIHN1YnN0aXR1dGlvbnMgZm9yIHJl YXNvbnMgb2YgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UuICBUaGlzCnJlY29tbWVuZGF0aW9uIGlzIG5vIGxvbmdlciBy ZWxldmFudCwgYXMgdGhpcyBpcyBtb3JlIHRoYW4gZmFzdCBlbm91Z2gKb24gbW9kZXJuIG1hY2hp 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from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54470) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQOZN-0007b6-03; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 02:38:57 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3429 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQOZL-0002VJ-5I; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 02:38:56 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:38:53 +0300 Message-Id: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:27:55 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50599 Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:27:55 +0200 > > (progn (require 'ibuffer) > (let ((times 100)) > (/ (car (benchmark-run > times (documentation 'ibuffer-mode))) > times))) > > => 0.00499586008 > > When I increase the number of substitutions in that docstring to around 1000 (by > duplicating the docstring 10 times), I get: > > => 0.05029239337 > > This is 10 times slower, but still fast enough that it does not matter much. > It also suggests that this is O(N) in time. > > My conclusion is that the above recommendation in `(elisp) Documentation Tips' > is irrelevant these days, and I suggest to remove it. > > Please see the attached patch. Thanks for the research, but the removal you propose is too radical. The text already says "very many times". You are saying that on your system (which has what CPU, btw?) "very many" is a very large number, but even for you 1000 references takes 50 msec, which begins to be significant. So I'm okay with somehow modifying the text to provide a better idea of what "very many" means nowadays, but I think the advice is still valid and shouldn't be removed. We cannot guarantee that arbitrarily large number of such references will not slow down help display. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 15 03:11:21 2021 Received: (at 50599) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 07:11:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50690 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQP4j-0004rm-7R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 03:11:21 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f52.google.com ([209.85.216.52]:55068) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQP4i-0004rX-2o for 50599@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 03:11:20 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f52.google.com with SMTP id i19so1473404pjv.4 for <50599@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 00:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rDi0mzCmHSEZftNq893FbzFgv2hisaH5b8Fb8zNH3d0=; b=til4D92/dkRbp80eOYujGUd9k0vfX8Gl10hQ+VtgJV9gER7Fn1RrwqAIYbB1zI6qZ1 QeL7em2a61CunutY4l+5cOG4ss3yQlnMaoAg2rFURcYhc/HudV/DQACZ2m8ROdwTD7kV UTVU+45T7UR2rJ3bGG8676JRMWKDy2nr1Q35g/99vXMxhzc5CRtTSFJUOFFap+BkW0NW raz/y/q/jLs2KS+Ti3YKDIai4md/PDSkxoLyQNOoTH/8uP5EWKgW4APD0gdU8M8fLjav jkH66dz5vA8cbsgnOlMbOmMOpx1rDt14hFTTgc4z+5QnUVtNLWY17EH32umkxjbmJvEi PBjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wC40cNVFVssj8rypWlXFb8I1Xq8PE3+Ax43eJJZsM/yDgHzgL cwL191hO0XBYBV1/2YYGyeEQ87DMXhbzKVYR1UX2aZUZ42k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxlVBIU0PfjFqcszrnDRlsVFiguFF3+8HowRQJ9nhsA+38bh59yXTHw2sfFXNHk0jgBrY7Gge1fQR3pw2NAeH0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3805:: with SMTP id mq5mr6106843pjb.143.1631689874110; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 00:11:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:11:02 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50599 Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Thanks for the research, but the removal you propose is too radical. > The text already says "very many times". You are saying that on your > system (which has what CPU, btw?) "very many" is a very large number, > but even for you 1000 references takes 50 msec, which begins to be > significant. According to /proc/cpuinfo, machine has a Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz. I believe this CPU was first released in 2013, and if I'm not mistaken was not on the high-end even then. Anything up to 100ms is perceived as instantaneous, so 50ms is still very fast. Note in particular that I only came up with the this result by copying one of our longest docstrings 10 times over. Even the longest docstrings we have in Emacs will still be displayed under 10ms, so let's please use that figure as the basis for this discussion. > So I'm okay with somehow modifying the text to provide a better idea > of what "very many" means nowadays, but I think the advice is still > valid and shouldn't be removed. We cannot guarantee that arbitrarily > large number of such references will not slow down help display. Formally, it is correct that if you throw very large inputs at `substitute-command-keys', you will start to notice performance issues. But when evaluating performance considerations we must also consider what inputs we will realistically expect to see. Even in `ibuffer-mode', which already has a very large number of substitutions (107), this takes only 5ms on my machine. It is in my opinion unrealistic to expect that there exist more than a handful modes out there that has more than an order of magnitude more commands than this one. You will start running out of keys, the docstring will be completely unwieldy, etc., etc. If there exists any highly extreme outliers out there for which this might (!) become a problem, it is only because they are doing something silly like writing major modes with 2000+ commands in them. If they would come to emacs-devel with this problem I expect that we would tell them "then don't do that". But this advice is completely irrelevant for everyone else, and only wastes valuable space in the reference manual. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 15 04:24:26 2021 Received: (at 50599) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 08:24:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50806 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQQDS-0000Mx-1j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 04:24:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51310) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQQDQ-0000Mk-Ks for 50599@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 04:24:25 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:56632) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQQDL-0004Mz-B9; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 04:24:19 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2045 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQQDK-0005xX-Uk; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 04:24:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:24:14 +0300 Message-Id: <83tuimb61d.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:11:02 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance References: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50599 Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:11:02 +0200 > Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org > > According to /proc/cpuinfo, machine has a Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3770 > CPU @ 3.40GHz. I believe this CPU was first released in 2013, and if > I'm not mistaken was not on the high-end even then. Your machine is quite fast, even though it's 8 years old. (Mine is 9 years old, and is faster.) There are many machines in use out there that are much, much slower. > > So I'm okay with somehow modifying the text to provide a better idea > > of what "very many" means nowadays, but I think the advice is still > > valid and shouldn't be removed. We cannot guarantee that arbitrarily > > large number of such references will not slow down help display. > > Formally, it is correct that if you throw very large inputs at > `substitute-command-keys', you will start to notice performance > issues. But when evaluating performance considerations we must also > consider what inputs we will realistically expect to see. We have no idea what could Lisp programmers out there want to do with this. For example, I could envision some programmatically generated help text with many such references. Where there are limitations due to the implementation, we should strive to let people know about them. > But this advice is completely irrelevant for everyone else, and only > wastes valuable space in the reference manual. I disagree with the "completely irrelevant" part, the general advice to keep the use of \\[..] to the minimum is still valid, so deleting that text entirely throws away the baby together with the bathwater. We should adapt the text to modern CPUs without losing the basic idea. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 15 10:14:18 2021 Received: (at 50599) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 14:14:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52814 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQVg2-0005lc-HW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:14:18 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f178.google.com ([209.85.210.178]:39929) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQVg0-0005lO-FD for 50599@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:14:17 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f178.google.com with SMTP id e16so2809587pfc.6 for <50599@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 07:14:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8pUUYKiWnEZaRBYwLrBPEQHBOLoWmNEOAhnMEEmK7FA=; b=Mv0xHpUjB2w6nVLsfh+0jE+fkkF6UMUslAXcYriOXk4cJFVK8o2lBVQUPQd5EN7wcD Rd0Kxq5QgeisDTh/l3IGc0xH/5Zef6uFTUwUsmSHg92JAyzDMdeylTWQE5hgqH5nBGYl Twza8NgCXMI0u8vDgtK+ngdVlNDR/ikVqm1fGFMVfgvOS2DS349LYiAzrxJgDdfafIpz +I7onaXMmkqydQrqgM7CRbEkgh4KtZ/WB7YUHcyTrSVn6OjNs2uHg6FKVFHETfzRJcKX p/sS9OrECgXbLwcFo+fn4z7qlOft50wp71slsHKwGkDM61sEFrpN3SrjC3yoWK+sVvTY f/kA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532449KkchXQ8vP2qcbka/5UtxaNlJyhFVacSz3PVfOwfyGqc0VA osCUeIdO7jJrZKzmwzAMpD4NXgW8obG0s3cDAieT9Em+zt8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRaHC66AjLIIwyiVT2ok9wn3vaSXeYlYXCySaB4R+7ohegeh0lN4DMHBZzeIa+M0XzO+2yRhCvmmKFfbpVlfc= X-Received: by 2002:a62:1c85:0:b0:440:3583:9fda with SMTP id c127-20020a621c85000000b0044035839fdamr198537pfc.0.1631715250548; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 07:14:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> <83tuimb61d.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83tuimb61d.fsf@gnu.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:59 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50599 Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > We have no idea what could Lisp programmers out there want to do with > this. For example, I could envision some programmatically generated > help text with many such references. Where there are limitations due > to the implementation, we should strive to let people know about them. But not every such limitation belongs in `(elisp) Documentation Tips'. Even if one can imagine that there exists specialized applications where this limitation will become a problem, that does not mean that we should mention it here. This section should IMO be about general advice for Emacs Lisp programming, and this is not a general problem. > I disagree with the "completely irrelevant" part, the general advice > to keep the use of \\[..] to the minimum is still valid, I see no reason to keep use of "\\[...]" to the minimum. In any realistic use, my investigation has demonstrated that there is no problem with using it for reasons of performance. Instead of discouraging it, we should encourage its use, as it leads to better documentation. For example, compare the current 'ibuffer-mode' docstring to what you get if you replace the list of commands (with its categories, explanations, etc.) with a blanket "\\{ibuffer-mode-map}". So I find the advice not only irrelevant but misleading. How about this: We change, in my patch, 'checkdoc-max-keyref-before-warn' to a value like 1000 or 500 instead of nil. This would make me happy by not impacting any real use-cases [none of which will have 500+ commands in its docstring, or at least none of the ones that I care about will] and it would (hopefully) make you happy by sufficiently calling attention to any possible performance issues in some other cases. With that, perhaps we could agree that it is okay to delete the paragraph in `(elisp) Documentation Tips'. Running 'checkdoc' is after all recommended in that section as well. WDYT? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 15 11:41:48 2021 Received: (at 50599) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 15:41:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52988 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQX2Z-0001qX-2N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:41:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57756) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQX2W-0001qH-Ew for 50599@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:41:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:40222) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQX2Q-0004GU-By; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:41:30 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1202 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQX2P-0007GL-Ux; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:41:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:41:27 +0300 Message-Id: <83lf3xc0d4.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:59 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance References: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> <83tuimb61d.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50599 Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:59 +0200 > Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org > > We change, in my patch, 'checkdoc-max-keyref-before-warn' to a value > like 1000 or 500 instead of nil. This would make me happy by not > impacting any real use-cases [none of which will have 500+ commands in > its docstring, or at least none of the ones that I care about will] > and it would (hopefully) make you happy by sufficiently calling > attention to any possible performance issues in some other cases. I didn't realize that checkdoc is involved in this. If the problem is that it produces annoying diagnostics for \\[..], then I'm okay with removing it or making it less frequent. I was only talking about the manual. > With that, perhaps we could agree that it is okay to delete the > paragraph in `(elisp) Documentation Tips'. Running 'checkdoc' is > after all recommended in that section as well. WDYT? My reluctance to delete that advice is unrelated to checkdoc or what it does. I don't want to remove that advice completely, as I already said and explained. But I'm okay with making the text be a more general advice as opposed to some rigid rule. 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Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:46:52 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Kangas , Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance Thread-Index: AQHXqjwYjNWV3oiLzEaCXgF5HOCUJKulO79g Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:46:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> <83tuimb61d.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: marxist.se; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;marxist.se; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0621325c-acf7-4361-52a3-08d9786009fd x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5533: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> <83tuimb61d.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf3xc0d4.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83lf3xc0d4.fsf@gnu.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:37:36 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50599 Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) > I didn't realize that checkdoc is involved in this. If the problem is > that it produces annoying diagnostics for \\[..], then I'm okay with > removing it or making it less frequent. Thanks, I've pushed a patch to that effect. For anyone interested in looking at the rest of this bug report, the text that should be deleted is from 1994 (commit 7015aca4520). That was the "initial revision" so the text might been around for much longer than that. (It makes sense to me that this would have been a concern in the late 1980's or early 1990's.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 15 15:03:59 2021 Received: (at 50599) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 19:03:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53261 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQaCN-0007Tr-GS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:03:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53944) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQaCJ-0007Td-W5 for 50599@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:03:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49066) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQaCD-0007ng-U6; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:03:50 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1715 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQaC9-0004yK-LS; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 15:03:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 22:03:42 +0300 Message-Id: <83v931acfl.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:37:36 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance References: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> <83tuimb61d.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf3xc0d4.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50599 Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:37:36 +0200 > Cc: 50599@debbugs.gnu.org > > > I didn't realize that checkdoc is involved in this. If the problem is > > that it produces annoying diagnostics for \\[..], then I'm okay with > > removing it or making it less frequent. > > Thanks, I've pushed a patch to that effect. Thanks, I installed a followup that rewords the manual text. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 16 10:08:54 2021 Received: (at 50599) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2021 14:08:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56154 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQs4M-0005gB-2g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:08:54 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:36986) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQs4B-0005fT-Js for 50599@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:08:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=7JjBPP41PQ8iyhhylRvMYsrnQPELaevU6b0DyBB1OI4=; b=K4MKlqT2Zs/HvxS0b2U+5pl33l /if0z3wKiPOcJh45ZMCKp48wTwv+EKtFf7HIXFzKEvb76pffud37lvDQzhOqsU1l9FoiUmFGdDEyl nnMbCZM5cyeDGoyQ+PNEm1ELPBxMg35GnO5gt/59Zn6kf4RdtMrHtajRpuVweYv1BFrI=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQs43-0005Jk-PX; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:08:38 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#50599: [PATCH] Don't recommend against "\[...]" substitutions for performance References: <83v932bawy.fsf@gnu.org> <83tuimb61d.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf3xc0d4.fsf@gnu.org> <83v931acfl.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:08:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83v931acfl.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 15 Sep 2021 22:03:42 +0300") Message-ID: <871r5o1ul8.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Thanks, I installed a followup that rewords the manual text. Looks OK to me, so I'm now closing this bug report. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50599 Cc: Stefan Kangas , 50599@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Thanks, I installed a followup that rewords the manual text. Looks OK to me, so I'm now closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 16 10:08:51 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2021 14:08:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56152 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQs4I-0005fw-Tq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:08:51 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37000) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQs4G-0005ff-VW for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:08:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RTQ6n0QItqGeS0sEyPc8Il8YtQHWWs7XDmSIS26PP+s=; b=R+4/G2f3Y8E7qCjzmDYi2Vdejx LUo6mws/Pa2ocI0w+r4jIwOCQ76Mu4UxdDkz14FVJHZUzCesFBSi0yBk73PaeOMjPBuHVTOcq6U5P l+xMQk87oeD4ejE+auLYlSwsAI7GRzBfmhc+fzGP6fAd48ivTdavayqcL31sqJyToG4U=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQs49-0005Jv-FV for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:08:43 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:08:41 +0200 Message-Id: <87zgsczk7q.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #50599 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 50599 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 50599 quit From unknown Mon Jun 23 06:00:24 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 11:24:11 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator