GNU bug report logs - #48580
Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: pietru <at> caramail.com
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:56:15 +0200

Currently Outline Mode is confusing because (1) commands begin with describing a tree,
then shifts to describe human beings (body, children); and (2) nomenclature such as branches
and leaves challenge the formal nomenclature of evolutionary trees.

There are also problems with the use of leaves and branches.  Formally, "leaves" are
end-nodes with no children; whereas "branches" are the lines connecting the nodes, their
lengths commonly interpreted as time estimates.  Thusly, "branches" effectively describe
the "body", not nodes themselves.

I advise and lay out a system based on a formal Phylogenetic Tree that implement
Show-Hide Options.

Show All (currently: Show All [unchanged])
Show Offsprings (currently: Show Children)
Show Descendants  (currently: Show Branches)
Show Sub-Tree (currently: Show Subtree [unchanged])
Show Common Level (currently: Hide Sublevels)

Hide Sub-Branches (currently: Hide Leaves - meaning Hide Body after heading)
Hide Branches (currently: Hide Body, leaves all headings visible)
Hide Current Branch (currently: Hide Entry - hide body of this heading)
Hide Sub-Tree (currently: Hide Subtree [unchanged])
Hide Other (currently: Hide Other [unchanged])

Regards
Peter

Message #8 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: pietru <at> caramail.com
Cc: 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 11:10:13 +0300

> From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:56:15 +0200
> Sensitivity: Normal
> 
> I advise and lay out a system based on a formal Phylogenetic Tree that implement
> Show-Hide Options.
> 
> Show All (currently: Show All [unchanged])
> Show Offsprings (currently: Show Children)
> Show Descendants  (currently: Show Branches)
> Show Sub-Tree (currently: Show Subtree [unchanged])
> Show Common Level (currently: Hide Sublevels)
> 
> Hide Sub-Branches (currently: Hide Leaves - meaning Hide Body after heading)
> Hide Branches (currently: Hide Body, leaves all headings visible)
> Hide Current Branch (currently: Hide Entry - hide body of this heading)
> Hide Sub-Tree (currently: Hide Subtree [unchanged])
> Hide Other (currently: Hide Other [unchanged])

FWIW, if I were presented with the menu labels as you suggest, I'd be
mightily confused by the unfamiliar terminology.  "Branches",
"Levels", "Children", and "Tree" are familiar terms when dealing with
tree structures, whereas "Offsprings", "Descendants" and
"Sub-branches" aren't.

Message #11 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: pietru <at> caramail.com
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 10:41:03 +0200

The more familiar (emacs) names can be put in the description and mouse pop-up description.
But internally, a more formal system implemented.

I do not see that developers thought about tree structures in a formal manner
(e.g. leaves, branches).  Leaves are not bodies, and branches are not subheadings.

We are getting even more people thinking badly about tree structures, and having
other developers get used to faulty nomenclature.

What can be changed so that there could be some changes that can be handled, but not
too excessive?  There exists a really thought up system that outline should adopt.
It would need documentation for others to understand.

There can also be a deprecation process.

Regards
Peter

> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 8:10 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> To: pietru <at> caramail.com
> Cc: 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
>
> > From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> > Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:56:15 +0200
> > Sensitivity: Normal
> >
> > I advise and lay out a system based on a formal Phylogenetic Tree that implement
> > Show-Hide Options.
> >
> > Show All (currently: Show All [unchanged])
> > Show Offsprings (currently: Show Children)
> > Show Descendants  (currently: Show Branches)
> > Show Sub-Tree (currently: Show Subtree [unchanged])
> > Show Common Level (currently: Hide Sublevels)
> >
> > Hide Sub-Branches (currently: Hide Leaves - meaning Hide Body after heading)
> > Hide Branches (currently: Hide Body, leaves all headings visible)
> > Hide Current Branch (currently: Hide Entry - hide body of this heading)
> > Hide Sub-Tree (currently: Hide Subtree [unchanged])
> > Hide Other (currently: Hide Other [unchanged])
>
> FWIW, if I were presented with the menu labels as you suggest, I'd be
> mightily confused by the unfamiliar terminology.  "Branches",
> "Levels", "Children", and "Tree" are familiar terms when dealing with
> tree structures, whereas "Offsprings", "Descendants" and
> "Sub-branches" aren't.
>
>
>
>

Message #14 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: pietru <at> caramail.com
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 12:53:40 +0200

> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 8:10 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> To: pietru <at> caramail.com
> Cc: 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
>
> > From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> > Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:56:15 +0200
> > Sensitivity: Normal
> >
> > I advise and lay out a system based on a formal Phylogenetic Tree that implement
> > Show-Hide Options.
> >
> > Show All (currently: Show All [unchanged])
> > Show Offsprings (currently: Show Children)
> > Show Descendants  (currently: Show Branches)
> > Show Sub-Tree (currently: Show Subtree [unchanged])
> > Show Common Level (currently: Hide Sublevels)
> >
> > Hide Sub-Branches (currently: Hide Leaves - meaning Hide Body after heading)
> > Hide Branches (currently: Hide Body, leaves all headings visible)
> > Hide Current Branch (currently: Hide Entry - hide body of this heading)
> > Hide Sub-Tree (currently: Hide Subtree [unchanged])
> > Hide Other (currently: Hide Other [unchanged])
>
> FWIW, if I were presented with the menu labels as you suggest, I'd be
> mightily confused by the unfamiliar terminology.  "Branches",
> "Levels", "Children", and "Tree" are familiar terms when dealing with
> tree structures, whereas "Offsprings", "Descendants" and
> "Sub-branches" aren't.

The problem is not much about Levels, Children, and Tree.

Things got problematic when people required additional words for showing and hiding
structures that go beyond Children, Levels and Tree.  My focus is mostly about "Entry"
and Leaves.

Leaves are always end-nodes, not related to the body ("hide leaves" means "hide bodies"
in outline.el [in addition to not being related to end-nodes either]).  In outline, leaves
are expected to be the bodies of headlines.  And even in standard tree nomenclature, branches
are not nodes (but "show branches means" "show nodes" in outline.el).

Regards
Peter


>
>
>

Message #17 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Christopher Dimech <dimech <at> gmx.com>
To: pietru <at> caramail.com
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 13:47:06 +0200

> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 10:53 PM
> From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 8:10 PM
> > From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> > To: pietru <at> caramail.com
> > Cc: 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
> >
> > > From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> > > Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:56:15 +0200
> > > Sensitivity: Normal
> > >
> > > I advise and lay out a system based on a formal Phylogenetic Tree that implement
> > > Show-Hide Options.
> > >
> > > Show All (currently: Show All [unchanged])
> > > Show Offsprings (currently: Show Children)
> > > Show Descendants  (currently: Show Branches)
> > > Show Sub-Tree (currently: Show Subtree [unchanged])
> > > Show Common Level (currently: Hide Sublevels)
> > >
> > > Hide Sub-Branches (currently: Hide Leaves - meaning Hide Body after heading)
> > > Hide Branches (currently: Hide Body, leaves all headings visible)
> > > Hide Current Branch (currently: Hide Entry - hide body of this heading)
> > > Hide Sub-Tree (currently: Hide Subtree [unchanged])
> > > Hide Other (currently: Hide Other [unchanged])
> >
> > FWIW, if I were presented with the menu labels as you suggest, I'd be
> > mightily confused by the unfamiliar terminology.  "Branches",
> > "Levels", "Children", and "Tree" are familiar terms when dealing with
> > tree structures, whereas "Offsprings", "Descendants" and
> > "Sub-branches" aren't.
>
> The problem is not much about Levels, Children, and Tree.
>
> Things got problematic when people required additional words for showing and hiding
> structures that go beyond Children, Levels and Tree.  My focus is mostly about "Entry"
> and Leaves.
>
> Leaves are always end-nodes, not related to the body ("hide leaves" means "hide bodies"
> in outline.el [in addition to not being related to end-nodes either]).  In outline, leaves
> are expected to be the bodies of headlines.  And even in standard tree nomenclature, branches
> are not nodes (but "show branches means" "show nodes" in outline.el).

The arguments you brought up are fundamentally correct.  Instead of "branches", outline.el
could use "bodies".  "leaves" and "entry" should also be changed.   "Hide Entry" is really
"Hide Current Body".

And "Hide Body" hides all bodies in buffer, but essentially means "Show Tree" (show headlines
only without displaying bodies).

Message #20 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: pietru <at> caramail.com, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 22:09:44 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> FWIW, if I were presented with the menu labels as you suggest, I'd be
> mightily confused by the unfamiliar terminology.  "Branches",
> "Levels", "Children", and "Tree" are familiar terms when dealing with
> tree structures, whereas "Offsprings", "Descendants" and
> "Sub-branches" aren't.

I agree, so I don't think we should change anything here.  Closing.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #25 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: pietru <at> caramail.com
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 22:15:06 +0200

> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 8:09 AM
> From: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> To: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: pietru <at> caramail.com, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> > FWIW, if I were presented with the menu labels as you suggest, I'd be
> > mightily confused by the unfamiliar terminology.  "Branches",
> > "Levels", "Children", and "Tree" are familiar terms when dealing with
> > tree structures, whereas "Offsprings", "Descendants" and
> > "Sub-branches" aren't.
>
> I agree, so I don't think we should change anything here.  Closing.

Could there be something else than leaves, because it actually hides the current body,
and "hide body" hides all bodies.

> --
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
>    bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
>

Message #28 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: pietru <at> caramail.com
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 14:57:54 +0300

> From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 22:15:06 +0200
> 
> Could there be something else than leaves, because it actually hides the current body,
> and "hide body" hides all bodies.

What would you suggest instead of "Hide leaves"?

Message #31 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: pietru <at> caramail.com
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 14:23:17 +0200

> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 11:57 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> To: pietru <at> caramail.com
> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
>
> > From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 22:15:06 +0200
> >
> > Could there be something else than leaves, because it actually hides the current body,
> > and "hide body" hides all bodies.
>
> What would you suggest instead of "Hide leaves"?

What do you think of the following

"Hide Internal bodies", "Hide Inner Bodies", "Hide Connected Bodies"

Message #34 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: pietru <at> caramail.com
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 10:37:16 +0300

> From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 14:23:17 +0200
> 
> > > Could there be something else than leaves, because it actually hides the current body,
> > > and "hide body" hides all bodies.
> >
> > What would you suggest instead of "Hide leaves"?
> 
> What do you think of the following
> 
> "Hide Internal bodies", "Hide Inner Bodies", "Hide Connected Bodies"

How about "Hide Subtree's Bodies"?

Message #37 received at 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: pietru <at> caramail.com
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 09:42:18 +0200

> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:37 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> To: pietru <at> caramail.com
> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#48580: Outline Mode using Phylogenetic Tree Nomenclature
>
> > From: pietru <at> caramail.com
> > Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 48580 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 14:23:17 +0200
> >
> > > > Could there be something else than leaves, because it actually hides the current body,
> > > > and "hide body" hides all bodies.
> > >
> > > What would you suggest instead of "Hide leaves"?
> >
> > What do you think of the following
> >
> > "Hide Internal bodies", "Hide Inner Bodies", "Hide Connected Bodies"
>
> How about "Hide Subtree's Bodies"?

Good too

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