From unknown Sat Aug 09 04:57:00 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#48504 <48504@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#48504 <48504@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) Reply-To: bug#48504 <48504@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:57:00 +0000 retitle 48504 Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) reassign 48504 emacs submitter 48504 Sebastian Urban severity 48504 wishlist tag 48504 wontfix thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 18 15:05:24 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2021 19:05:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57323 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lj51v-0004cd-RN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 15:05:24 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:57290) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lj51t-0004cT-UX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 15:05:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55712) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lj51s-0006I1-63 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 15:05:21 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::531]:40769) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lj51q-0006yQ-6x for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 15:05:19 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id t3so12498063edc.7 for ; Tue, 18 May 2021 12:05:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vB64hMISoHI+BxilLCtI33/X/1gsnRZorfs4Q53rcdU=; b=fVnlsC1bCpHfxRZd6jkwWKsT8zU5qy455wIEZXXDY/3xjBUnVlaD8WQoLt+PxYnSX9 tfLJmQ50EIb3SP+orn+xDiPFj7UK3blS/w6alEYahRc/r6jhlpQPTz7hUBrIfqdf9IrD NiqMYMTDE1oibgmtAbeCJNaKtwrR+cnUI+an7fd7p3A4grArVnWzF+fx5qr/tY3T6tON zw60ZWfRr2hfuoNJwZ437fPzTqc1hV9jgmgjW0yOI/Oy5Fl8W//i8L0df0KsmtxtQNcs eTnlN1WcxnX72pv4RZJQn3cFKRJOWGLtRhiEkjRojQx4zAVnpYrT0JOBtx35nGdM/dg/ Ym7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vB64hMISoHI+BxilLCtI33/X/1gsnRZorfs4Q53rcdU=; b=jUJX8o6oFqe8m/a6FmYTynth3QmSxlekUOxWSMGUkPn2Z0Yiqqy3ZK2w+kPlTNMYoV xHvdssXT9TFsuaEgnYgCJ9xiiVJkVZ9r+0LHXQtK/2x+AZffSdYbXHzZ31Sjec75gMqu +fEULIakZVrQEb9ukH47ze/jR25Jzz31ukpOs89l5KxDHwN7CDjLOJPcWrlO0te5fnJu vIKfjU0qG6vxhzP7oEb0ELdWFaLZq+E1eZlaBp4aniPXLSIZEf1PPdXE/NN7mR0Hqdqd VxskU0IFY+SPrq3SBK2JwlTUUayJiQDQjzfh86sev8Mlo1R+friO4Z5OuvajM89G+5qP oW3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531FjfFJLSfC0k5QuRAk+CnUF+didN4T02Y2yopI4aSZdmJzZx84 74vDkZEY48QY4a3qUQQn+8tWL0hTatw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxOer6tvx006PGlafTrOaLYZwrcY8QV0QbLAkWCENa88uOU1dnHG7MvobmehsKqzils/T0blA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d659:: with SMTP id v25mr8839415edr.271.1621364716170; Tue, 18 May 2021 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:f41:c45:2c67:419e:ea2e:3b53:153e? ([2a00:f41:c45:2c67:419e:ea2e:3b53:153e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id dn4sm6104795edb.88.2021.05.18.12.05.14 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 May 2021 12:05:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Sebastian Urban Subject: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) To: Bug GNU Emacs Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 21:05:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::531; envelope-from=mrsebastianurban@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x531.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Currently, in the Preface of the Emacs manual (EMACS.TEXI - L1291), there is: To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (which is ``control h and then t''). I think, the part between parens should look better, e.g. similar to this part of SCREEN.TEXI (L126): ...(hold down @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{x}, then let go of @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{=})... ...i.e.: ...(hold down @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{t}). That's all. -- S. U. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 18 15:19:26 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2021 19:19:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57335 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lj5FW-00078e-HN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 15:19:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37774) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lj5FT-00078P-5j for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 15:19:24 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48288) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lj5FN-0007Br-Tk; Tue, 18 May 2021 15:19:17 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1383 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lj5FL-0000Jz-Uy; Tue, 18 May 2021 15:19:17 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 22:19:16 +0300 Message-Id: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Sebastian Urban In-Reply-To: (message from Sebastian Urban on Tue, 18 May 2021 21:05:14 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Sebastian Urban > Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 21:05:14 +0200 > > Currently, in the Preface of the Emacs manual (EMACS.TEXI - L1291), > there is: > To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (which is > ``control h and then t''). > > I think, the part between parens should look better, e.g. similar to > this part of SCREEN.TEXI (L126): > ...(hold down @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{x}, then let go of > @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{=})... > ...i.e.: > ...(hold down @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of > @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{t}). We didn't yet introduce the Ctrl etc. notation at that place. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 18 16:35:50 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2021 20:35:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57419 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lj6RR-0000Zr-V2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 16:35:50 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f44.google.com ([209.85.218.44]:44942) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lj6RN-0000ZZ-Ag for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 16:35:48 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f44.google.com with SMTP id lz27so16592018ejb.11 for <48504@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 18 May 2021 13:35:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8qiE4p+Oj1KUNW9eP7dKkcWUVCS7+2QBPwc2RUcQNgw=; b=mUyiuRjWTSihMheJj9dYJcM0EvCZZbqr4vNmbiUZK0fVwT9E4/E6lpgiK3lzO/aV8F AR6dlxpamm+6GIXOWgbTIPYJZ6tnTL3d69XGHoxF1cVjLHE5yQ1rICpsHv8SbyNFB6q7 l5GMM0zGWyPdE58Rnd/usYExvHj9DKHLt98jGGXVo4YE1K9cnZZLAa5d8jJaE24aU3Vf fnkSqx8vv1/Q5Mf6d/lSC105Y8aY5WaMl3tACbNdyuYePPBXF8t6gks2s+pS8PF5UkUo fTJw0Da1JeVuPpiYW2iQc4yG5Ayj/UrJkY5tJG6EXMFq5jYT4GmNO9w+P7UxlRvxu+0n tb+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8qiE4p+Oj1KUNW9eP7dKkcWUVCS7+2QBPwc2RUcQNgw=; b=Ivvvy4pIqfrQOMbzY1Tqb2BcUbanNRTmuwOSwTZjZV9/C0kei+rFCvaEBYWZDzwetO L7FPnVxVRyG4SnguzW6S6mNsZZpGNycrQSYJXpmGNOly3n2w3SOBNuGBQcbQ0XxLvYcp mCI0kLZ7zuum+br2fDyCD4P22KaXK3fsVYMnSwgnz4+s/QlnLtYEZcO1ZTPTE7WLtXCb mqd4fLNM8bcBoOYQtzSNFmR8Jou14PCYQOX4GNoN0+3qYCSD//6MmRlAbdHX6K2dRn8S M4/gDndpDrWDsTbWue2qtrnA8etBmMZVKyNFwU/WKkvrnMgcAtv8lpHeYbDDMeaMCDt9 MD6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XcPzlMvsqu6MfS0A2mY4Z5PCLM/oTqsqMqFZIshPiCcl74ZwY IjRmSIRIzytFMsTU78IMX4HUeruBxyU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzMEokZuuXFPSq2fbWJpBYhPzJKxoXRkFCC0ItcvPCtVd2tGNRm1TVJs48etGTwj6rO3tnTxQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:6289:: with SMTP id nd9mr7838546ejc.384.1621370139398; Tue, 18 May 2021 13:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:f41:c95:4fcf:71d6:4fd9:186:1b56? ([2a00:f41:c95:4fcf:71d6:4fd9:186:1b56]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e23sm12451550edr.80.2021.05.18.13.35.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 May 2021 13:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) To: Eli Zaretskii References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Sebastian Urban Message-ID: <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 22:35:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> Currently, in the Preface of the Emacs manual (EMACS.TEXI - L1291), >> there is: >> To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (which is >> ``control h and then t''). >> >> I think, the part between parens should look better, e.g. similar to >> this part of SCREEN.TEXI (L126): >> ...(hold down @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{x}, then let go of >> @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{=})... >> ...i.e.: >> ...(hold down @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of >> @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{t}). > > We didn't yet introduce the Ctrl etc. notation at that place. What about "Control" instead of "Ctrl"? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 18 22:24:13 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2021 02:24:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57653 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljBsb-0004eo-0R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 22:24:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53924) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljBsZ-0004eb-VQ for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 May 2021 22:24:12 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33226) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljBsU-0006Xx-PV; Tue, 18 May 2021 22:24:06 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3622 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljBsT-0001XE-0h; Tue, 18 May 2021 22:24:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 05:24:10 +0300 Message-Id: <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Sebastian Urban In-Reply-To: <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> (message from Sebastian Urban on Tue, 18 May 2021 22:35:37 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Sebastian Urban > Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 22:35:37 +0200 > > >> Currently, in the Preface of the Emacs manual (EMACS.TEXI - L1291), > >> there is: > >> To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (which is > >> ``control h and then t''). > >> > >> I think, the part between parens should look better, e.g. similar to > >> this part of SCREEN.TEXI (L126): > >> ...(hold down @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{x}, then let go of > >> @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{=})... > >> ...i.e.: > >> ...(hold down @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of > >> @key{Ctrl} and type @kbd{t}). > > > > We didn't yet introduce the Ctrl etc. notation at that place. > > What about "Control" instead of "Ctrl"? You mean, just capitalize what the text already says? no objections here. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 19 07:17:34 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2021 11:17:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58217 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljKCj-0001iN-Qd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 May 2021 07:17:33 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f53.google.com ([209.85.221.53]:45725) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljKCh-0001iA-Lu for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 May 2021 07:17:31 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f53.google.com with SMTP id h4so13560385wrt.12 for <48504@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 19 May 2021 04:17:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nXEvvbbRphFYfhZV1uiFrpUc20ZjvNt0Zr037e3+P/Q=; b=LEmxS3jproO8X2vWWGBBx2hwXaennjqnxvG0p+tK6mumzF6U+M8UhGQWfaXQfOVvWV /Bple6ktB+WfoRVuIaz8bL8Hus7PjLYj7RDPlS/uJQCEd9FUKZtiZe+tA1xa+e2duiyt rHwzd2aVhIjP6PiDFFXqmYko5lCu8+eaiEteAm5AWSMlpVtoWhURYpDHXty6owSM6bHo JAhDvTagmHaolNRtVON4K+hfLaJwvPS+BEmZq3UxyTcUQ0Ugml2xzpOc9mPrbgfq2Gwu YHgGZPefo+IxAXZ+81FbDUOx8kAXKGXMz3Cvn28uhT5b9NA7m9VqRql2f7xoulSzCfZt ItpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nXEvvbbRphFYfhZV1uiFrpUc20ZjvNt0Zr037e3+P/Q=; b=eU0FfHu56s8ysw4YaH5nFO6RfVZaDjW0eotcjJFI6S/0MtvKZYwycdBK1qweTTfwEV h+kww4/xdQQmuzH0JhQUbFLGhZ0p6XVTO0oUQxBvsFq3MtgEHPpvwalh7Q5fCHZUZZw5 NOSMRipiFvBBm7tbuEyHjBBFmwzfbGStMI3uJA0ynCQoHWHJrmOnyEQQ75xjYpMUxnmU IR5mEBibuYWPUlo+A3swxaosomUXaFoyaoT5rfjrUlNYB26OsIzkb9VfWz2BWEEroPoW FgfqFO98kPbqZOHxOOken/lhxM+sJY97/UZyLMDF7rzQtGNzCwMBvHY59lFn5K8CJFrS CU8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530/42Zkr9YNqDv2ufrlIdyjLt9axCWZ5QbudeI6pHVi/kU1sX1c 2tWzF9Kx9QXRvE7+09NcnfdPDGrZLRk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx51pclFBwn9fM54gABWsM97OYxK3KffcSgApSrYOIz8U2pPEH7veQ+k/JeLl6jJ9rGunihjA== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4e8c:: with SMTP id e12mr13974002wru.94.1621423045867; Wed, 19 May 2021 04:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:f41:c65:93d1:4488:e6cf:98bc:71a6? ([2a00:f41:c65:93d1:4488:e6cf:98bc:71a6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y5sm25642716wrp.5.2021.05.19.04.17.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 May 2021 04:17:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Sebastian Urban Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) To: Eli Zaretskii References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:17:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>> We didn't yet introduce the Ctrl etc. notation at that place. >> >> What about "Control" instead of "Ctrl"? > > You mean, just capitalize what the text already says? no objections > here. No, I mean to change this: (which is ``control h and then t'') into this: (hold down @key{Control} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of @key{Control} and type @kbd{t}) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 19 07:56:18 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2021 11:56:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58273 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljKoD-0004sv-Rl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 May 2021 07:56:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53452) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljKoC-0004sh-9E for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 May 2021 07:56:16 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45664) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljKo6-0001Xl-W3; Wed, 19 May 2021 07:56:11 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3079 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljKo6-0007yR-7Q; Wed, 19 May 2021 07:56:10 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 14:56:17 +0300 Message-Id: <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Sebastian Urban In-Reply-To: (message from Sebastian Urban on Wed, 19 May 2021 13:17:28 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Sebastian Urban > Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:17:28 +0200 > > >>> We didn't yet introduce the Ctrl etc. notation at that place. > >> > >> What about "Control" instead of "Ctrl"? > > > > You mean, just capitalize what the text already says? no objections > > here. > > No, I mean to change this: > (which is ``control h and then t'') > into this: > (hold down @key{Control} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of > @key{Control} and type @kbd{t}) That's awkward. How about To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (that is, press and hold Control, then type h, then release Control and type t). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 19 09:45:00 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2021 13:45:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58414 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljMVP-0003WO-S4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 May 2021 09:45:00 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-f54.google.com ([209.85.208.54]:44030) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljMVO-0003W9-AQ for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 May 2021 09:44:58 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-f54.google.com with SMTP id s6so15383528edu.10 for <48504@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 19 May 2021 06:44:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8XAuF8+ppOltcUZk8xkMkGXUWAYEfF0CN/9gop4e+z4=; b=KgMMR/uBnKoT8lnplSmzjy4lxVbT1js92AsGUTPY6X5gqsUj46JAljrpoHlgBdhy/p BOuZRMCHPGlIVLxB1tNnJK+VYWXIWM7+kCBsJcYuxjBwHiD69OHU4bfNrXxJ6m42+BGC AFUC9tPCxgxUMzOzsrtMNMGxCfNLp1nf4ZWtIu7qsOGKW72H52hE43U/4AVMNKUbRVHO E1xR54xnFacIMtRgIJMLysDJ3E+/DQoQ3QPKHuwhybK+cXhcYS9P2HeSF1N3xvVgt28A xFgao8EbZsOY34rlApm+oMLxVHyfa5ABGITb1GegjLWQi96LwE8nc6X4auuTzM4H6Ukp Jqdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8XAuF8+ppOltcUZk8xkMkGXUWAYEfF0CN/9gop4e+z4=; b=IhA+G/JEoBapxr42OT6frH/vpquJsd/cY1qQKm2u5Y6T+2HRViTukdGnOxfGTunJX7 ZquLliHlKNyFuAMXNlxLMKNXO8AqRA78vuMsvCcSG7Q6xctEYFqXEffnRWI8p/9XelMx IfwL1ElOdIQnZD1mDnjsl4AalM7pBiROv2vLtkuyv02JU517AkyzCUseyg/Zy+mT27zW RqCJcWK23k/5obz41RW5f3t1TxPrv2Ixg1NaihYtnO7WcPaBzmJCe0WUdUMEaPQY/YHk ryZsqTPBujhbmOPMNKNkb7Rd+9mCznVQ5IEdyFu4ZOs+sbsTesliaY6hULnAP+lNXvJj Ep4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531NNAs50wl8hPKqsHNHzmj+sN7pGfqSN4+jCFYxtMJn4sfUfB+C rnfdr0Hae4Of6JI4flBIZcL6iio2hsE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQVB8gXFTIuzXKDKk+PcqlpcfxOU5AGCn+kPbvdpgmhx5U9aFaN0MOvYLSi369yVEWWubAzg== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d74a:: with SMTP id a10mr14222882eds.311.1621431892429; Wed, 19 May 2021 06:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:f41:c55:c6a5:d5b2:29ee:75fc:607b? ([2a00:f41:c55:c6a5:d5b2:29ee:75fc:607b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f7sm16374757edd.5.2021.05.19.06.44.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 May 2021 06:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) To: Eli Zaretskii References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> From: Sebastian Urban Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 15:44:51 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> No, I mean to change this: >> (which is ``control h and then t'') >> into this: >> (hold down @key{Control} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of >> @key{Control} and type @kbd{t}) > > That's awkward. What exactly? It's basically copy-paste from SCREEN.TEXI (L126). Is it awkward there as well? > How about > > To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (that is, > press and hold Control, then type h, then release Control and type > t). Why @kbd/@key (commands for indication) can't be used here for "Control"/"h"/"t"? The complete sentence would look (in EMACS.TEXI) like this: To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (that/which is, hold down @key{Control} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of @key{Control} and type @kbd{t}). Whether there will be "that is" or "which is" - it's up to you. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 19 10:06:16 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2021 14:06:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60360 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljMq0-0004cf-Gp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 May 2021 10:06:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58074) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljMpy-0004cP-9p for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 May 2021 10:06:14 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49908) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljMps-0002LP-Uk; Wed, 19 May 2021 10:06:08 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3241 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljMpp-0007WW-LD; Wed, 19 May 2021 10:06:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 17:06:11 +0300 Message-Id: <83tumyq0mk.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Sebastian Urban In-Reply-To: (message from Sebastian Urban on Wed, 19 May 2021 15:44:51 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Sebastian Urban > Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 15:44:51 +0200 > > >> No, I mean to change this: > >> (which is ``control h and then t'') > >> into this: > >> (hold down @key{Control} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of > >> @key{Control} and type @kbd{t}) > > > > That's awkward. > > What exactly? It's basically copy-paste from SCREEN.TEXI (L126). Is it > awkward there as well? Maybe, I didn't look. > > How about > > > > To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (that is, > > press and hold Control, then type h, then release Control and type > > t). > > Why @kbd/@key (commands for indication) can't be used here for > "Control"/"h"/"t"? Because we didn't yet explain this notation, that comes later in the manual. 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([2a00:f41:c06:40df:44c1:eb67:5fc6:f50c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y2sm1825666wrl.92.2021.05.19.23.20.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 May 2021 23:20:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Sebastian Urban Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) To: Eli Zaretskii References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> <83tumyq0mk.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <2dbee0a0-4c4a-cad0-ae8a-91e8ba88cbde@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 08:21:01 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83tumyq0mk.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>> How about >>> >>> To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (that is, >>> press and hold Control, then type h, then release Control and type >>> t). >> >> Why @kbd/@key (commands for indication) can't be used here for >> "Control"/"h"/"t"? > > Because we didn't yet explain this notation, that comes later in the > manual. This is becoming a surprisingly confusing issue... So, we can't present keys or other KBD input with @key/@kbd style, because of the notation, that e.g. makes keys like Control use @key style, which is introduced later? Until that section - "(emacs) User Input" perhaps - we can only write "Control"/"h"/"t" just like an ordinary text? BTW, isn't @kbd{C-h t}, in the same sentence, and @kbd{h}, in the same file (EMACS.TEXI - L128), against this rule as well? What is to explain at all? The fact that - e.g. in PDF - @kbd/@key change font from Roman to Typewriter. It helps to distinguish the input keys/chars from the rest of the paragraph. In your example "h" and "t" may look like leftovers from a partially removed words... which is something I want to avoid. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 20 03:06:22 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 May 2021 07:06:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33005 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljclB-0001bb-RA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 03:06:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36110) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ljcl9-0001bN-7m for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 03:06:20 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50128) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljcl3-0004Yq-1D; Thu, 20 May 2021 03:06:14 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2966 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ljcl2-00076Q-E4; Thu, 20 May 2021 03:06:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 10:06:24 +0300 Message-Id: <83a6opq3yn.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Sebastian Urban In-Reply-To: <2dbee0a0-4c4a-cad0-ae8a-91e8ba88cbde@gmail.com> (message from Sebastian Urban on Thu, 20 May 2021 08:21:01 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> <83tumyq0mk.fsf@gnu.org> <2dbee0a0-4c4a-cad0-ae8a-91e8ba88cbde@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Sebastian Urban > Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 08:21:01 +0200 > > So, we can't present keys or other KBD input with @key/@kbd style, > because of the notation, that e.g. makes keys like Control use @key > style, which is introduced later? Using some notation before explaining it is confusing, especially when you are telling the reader how to start the tutorial, which is probably the first document about Emacs for that reader. > What is to explain at all? The fact that - e.g. in PDF - @kbd/@key > change font from Roman to Typewriter. It helps to distinguish the > input keys/chars from the rest of the paragraph. In your example "h" > and "t" may look like leftovers from a partially removed words... > which is something I want to avoid. Look, you don't have to agree with my reasoning. As long as I explained it, and the explanation is clear (as I think it is, based on your response), we don't have to continue to argue. Just accept that this is my reasoning for doing things this way, and it's based on some experience in this area. 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([2a00:f41:ce6:9b5c:6066:5b1c:ac0f:8fde]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c7sm1563927ede.37.2021.05.20.06.42.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 May 2021 06:42:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Sebastian Urban Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) To: Eli Zaretskii References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> <83tumyq0mk.fsf@gnu.org> <2dbee0a0-4c4a-cad0-ae8a-91e8ba88cbde@gmail.com> <83a6opq3yn.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 15:42:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83a6opq3yn.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> So, we can't present keys or other KBD input with @key/@kbd style, >> because of the notation, that e.g. makes keys like Control use @key >> style, which is introduced later? > > Using some notation before explaining it is confusing, especially when > you are telling the reader how to start the tutorial, which is > probably the first document about Emacs for that reader. This means - for me - that the problem is "C-h t", actually. Perhaps, this is the mysterious notation (next to the Ctrl instead of Control?) you were writing about, from the very beginning? Then, basically the whole sentence, not only the text between parens, has to be rewritten to get rid of "C-h t". BTW, since you didn't write where the definition of this notation is written, I still assume that it's in the beginning of the COMMANDS.TEXI (Kinds of User Input). 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Wed, 29 Sep 2021 05:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 05:07:09 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 19 May 2021 14:56:17 +0300") References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 05:07:09 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: Sebastian Urban , 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> No, I mean to change this: >> (which is ``control h and then t'') >> into this: >> (hold down @key{Control} and type @kbd{h}, then let go of >> @key{Control} and type @kbd{t}) > > That's awkward. How about > > To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (that is, > press and hold Control, then type h, then release Control and type > t). All users already know the notation Ctrl+X if they have ever used a computer. We can safely assume this most basic level of computer literacy. So this is better written as: > To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (that is, > @kbd{Ctrl+H}, then @kbd{T}). (There is no confusion here with regards to @kbd{T} and @kbd{t}, because everywhere else our "T" is written as "Shift+T".) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 08:18:28 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 12:18:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48025 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVYXc-0000Ph-Im for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:18:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51302) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVYXa-0000PU-1k for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:18:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54142) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVYXU-0004GE-Ir; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:18:20 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2260 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVYXS-0006MY-4n; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 08:18:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:18:24 +0300 Message-Id: <83k0izinhr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 29 Sep 2021 05:07:09 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: mrsebastianurban@gmail.com, 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 05:07:09 -0700 > Cc: Sebastian Urban , 48504@debbugs.gnu.org > > > To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type @kbd{C-h t} (that is, > > @kbd{Ctrl+H}, then @kbd{T}). The first @kbd should be @kbd{@key{Ctrl} H}, I think. For two reasons: . "Ctrl" is a single key, not 4 characters C t r l . "+" isn't something the user should type IOW, what you suggest violates our (and Texinfo's) conventions for markup of key sequences. Which is why I proposed a pure-English description that doesn't use any fancy markup that could only confuse at this point. Question: what do we gain from using "Ctrl+H" instead? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 29 09:11:58 2021 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2021 13:11:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48053 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVZNN-0001lz-PA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:11:57 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:35491) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mVZNK-0001lg-3u for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:11:56 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f169.google.com with SMTP id bb10so1496617plb.2 for <48504@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:11:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cPxGdTwuspJGEc2Oyc67hhKV9F+tiXCrtW3mNA4CdKA=; b=qiLUJoBlCP1tI4M3wpLMRtb0qgeNZO5kAdop6F4STIj+RbtuJ0aOq3Y9xcMtbTtc5S SnoA0t1WE8yxJ6orrR26/Rs1qMagO1RlW/Qw70ZluMzs68sLJIaWYXJ9uc2jeC1zI6nW dCwdyhuavFwGetrMojazV5IdidXBIJPL/kPsX4k/7WXQ602vySmmTzCiGdSLn2da/n0x G+HD7Lav16/wdUTLSdthAk1FyVmeeu+Uordcc0z0xXSXYIkm1/dt5Dtman/cSImQEKzV /9WLL68N38kZ097IR5qJbp8rwTEuC5j+WSUxEKVOyDKuk/AT9wXXfl6Q1YZXlso1RUOy MBzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339qtTQFo2P89uIGGZMyFhBiokMSMrxSRON3DxG79za9c9aasiP u9Xu0Bk6dLZ38W/Z7dhYjpS8x44A9MQOehB7Xtc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw51KEfRLXOx3GQ7swLAsZ07ED1AbS2bawn0iTZzKC/KWq6diG2ygTlF/NPY6MSddM5VxHd9hwVwcgRwS6ScoI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d505:b0:13e:b49:9d8d with SMTP id b5-20020a170902d50500b0013e0b499d8dmr10231051plg.22.1632921108302; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:11:47 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83k0izinhr.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0izinhr.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:11:47 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: mrsebastianurban@gmail.com, 48504@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Question: what do we gain from using "Ctrl+H" instead? The benefit is that the text is shorter and less tedious to read. This is all very minor of course, but that's my position. Precisely because this is so minor, I hope that we can just take a decision (any decision), close this bug and move on. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 13 08:01:11 2022 Received: (at 48504) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2022 12:01:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44795 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oBb3H-0005vL-4v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2022 08:01:11 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:50756) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oBb3F-0005o3-MY for 48504@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2022 08:01:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=AFEWLN/0vg9D4ssA9hc/vOARI7v6m08qfCYA5ExuXEU=; b=EkLgT1+kPeSNoMHwVUX141BiDY SSLhD1ah/lMP4BLWTnsLYJc/+CJrdEd8ffAHGpU0VDMCaFTfCCz5q/D+QWQnmo3pKs+XlT5nHkpVy UwLBpooaoqHFost1HbekIEUbH36e/ndQTOt9s/rS+TSC65Wi0Q4GfG33nWlMGmWy+o9k=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oBb36-0005iT-Bo; Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:01:02 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#48504: Improve style of C-h t description (Preface) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 29 Sep 2021 06:11:47 -0700") References: <83im3frgsr.fsf@gnu.org> <3195631d-1f4c-2b55-b7ed-9bb919458c76@gmail.com> <83h7izqx4l.fsf@gnu.org> <837djvq6n2.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0izinhr.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: Dwayne Sodahberk's =?utf-8?Q?=5FFj=C3=A4rilsfalu=5F=3A?= "Dring Mydl" Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:00:59 +0200 Message-ID: <87k08hql1g.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > This is all very minor of course, but that's my position. Precisely > because this is so minor, I hope that we can just take a decision (any > decision), close this bug and move on. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 48504 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 48504@debbugs.gnu.org, mrsebastianurban@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > This is all very minor of course, but that's my position. Precisely > because this is so minor, I hope that we can just take a decision (any > decision), close this bug and move on. Skimming this bug thread, I don't think any of the suggestions here are clear improvements over what we already have, so I'd just rather leave this as is, and I'm therefore closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 13 08:01:19 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2022 12:01:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44798 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oBb3P-00063p-Ia for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2022 08:01:19 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:50774) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oBb3N-0005wo-Vd for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2022 08:01:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=JVvohKdyrR1qKaQ5R9b0jXHMkW3AQ7vvAfMWBA98XNc=; b=GmoLZtHfyu80mJM9MB6b5/Vvo4 G5ixz0RusEyV8FZpxn6qz4ezQQZVH+dU0dSZo1QfYyX0u1yJGGrrMOuVHsHEfX/KL4n7Ef2nUfBIh pLTJS6omMAQPAcUVZ+jtWoVwfKOt7/DffpreXzKa6rbfPawkz4glswDx+2pQxLUaAjSE=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oBb3C-0005ih-Ez for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:01:12 +0200 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:01:05 +0200 Message-Id: <87ilo1ql1a.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #48504 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 48504 wontfix close 48504 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 48504 wontfix close 48504 quit From unknown Sat Aug 09 04:57:00 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 11:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator