GNU bug report logs - #48023
download.html has better instructions for non-free systems

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: download.html has better instructions for non-free systems
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:49:11 -0500

Severity: wishlist

On this page:

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/download.html

We have better instructions for non-free systems than for free ones.
They include the exact commands you would need to run to install Emacs.

I suggest we add instructions for free operating systems as well.

I don't think this would mean a lot of work, as the commands rarely
change.  We could decide to only include instructions for the top 5 most
popular distributions, scientifically decided by searching online for
"most popular gnu linux distributions" or something:

- Debian/Ubuntu
- Fedora/RedHat
- Arch Linux
- OpenSUSE
- GNU Guix

And we could document in a comment to that file that our policy is to
be very restrictive with adding more (to avoid zealous fan of random
small distribution <foo> to ask it to be added).

Note that just the first entry in that list would probably already cover
a significant proportion of our GNU/Linux users.

Message #8 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 00:42:16 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I suggest we add instructions for free operating systems as well.

In principle, I agree.  And if we handle only five distros of GNU/Linux,
it won't be too much work.

But there is a wrinkle to deal with.

  > - Debian/Ubuntu
  > - Fedora/RedHat
  > - Arch Linux
  > - OpenSUSE
  > - GNU Guix

Of all those, the only one that is a free distro is GNU Guix.
The others are nonfree distros that we don't want to promote.

We could describe Trisquel, and say that the nonfree distros Debian
and Ubuntu are similar.

We could describe Parabola and Hyperbola, and say that Arch GNU/Linux
is similar.

Are there free distros (see https://gnu.org/distros/) that are
lile Fedora and OpenSUSE?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #11 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:54:44 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:49:11 -0500
> 
> I suggest we add instructions for free operating systems as well.

I don't object, assuming that the added text will not need significant
maintenance, like changes with each version, tracking too frequent
changes in the installation tools and procedures of these distros,
etc.  IOW, if it is possible to write the text in a generic way that
will be sufficiently future-proof.

Message #14 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: rms <at> gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:01:46 +0300

On 26.04.2021 07:42, Richard Stallman wrote:
> Of all those, the only one that is a free distro is GNU Guix.
> The others are nonfree distros that we don't want to promote.

Are they even remotely as "nonfree" as Windows or MacOS, which have 
dedicated installation instructions on that web page?

Are you sure that free software movement is well served by painting 
Debian, Arch and Fedora in the same light, using the same turn of phrase?

Message #17 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:10:11 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> I suggest we add instructions for free operating systems as well.

I think that's a good idea.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #20 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 17:30:46 -0500

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

> But there is a wrinkle to deal with.
>
>   > - Debian/Ubuntu
>   > - Fedora/RedHat
>   > - Arch Linux
>   > - OpenSUSE
>   > - GNU Guix
>
> Of all those, the only one that is a free distro is GNU Guix.
> The others are nonfree distros that we don't want to promote.

I don't understand this given that we are fine with mentioning Windows
and macOS.

> We could describe Trisquel, and say that the nonfree distros Debian
> and Ubuntu are similar.
>
> We could describe Parabola and Hyperbola, and say that Arch GNU/Linux
> is similar.
>
> Are there free distros (see https://gnu.org/distros/) that are
> lile Fedora and OpenSUSE?

Is the below acceptable?

In comparison to the old page, it actively discourages using
distributions that GNU and/or FSF thinks are "non-free".  IOW, if I
agreed with your position, I think I would be more happy with it.  But
of course you would know better than me.

(The old page simply dodged the issue, which seems less than ideal.)


--- download.html.~1.23.~	2021-04-26 03:34:59.821526101 +0200
+++ download.html	2021-04-26 23:14:32.913860136 +0200
@@ -66,6 +66,74 @@
                         way to install Emacs unless you always want to use the
                         latest release.</p>

+                    <p>Some GNU/Linux distributions recommend nonfree
+                      software. We cannot recommend their use, see
+                      <a
href="https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html">
+                        Why We Don't Endorse Other Systems</a>.</p>
+
+
+                    <!-- NOTE: We want to be very restrictive with adding more
+                    distributions to this list, as it is a maintenance burden.
+                    The distributions below can be removed at any time.  -->
+
+
+                    <h3>Debian and derivatives</h3>
+
+                    <p>
+                      We do not recommend using this GNU/Linux
distribution and some of
+                      its derivatives (including Ubuntu and Linux
Mint), as they
+                      <a
href="https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html">
+                        include nonfree components and firmware</a>.
+
+                      We recommend using the Debian-based and fully free
+                      <a href="https://trisquel.info/">Trisquel GNU/Linux</a>
+                      instead.
+                    </p>
+
+                    <pre>sudo apt-get install emacs</pre>
+
+
+                    <h3>Arch</h3>
+
+                    <p>
+                      We do not recommend using this GNU/Linux
distribution, as it
+                      <a
href="https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html">
+                        includes nonfree components and firmware</a>.
+
+                      We recommend using the Arch-based and fully free
+                      <a href="https://www.hyperbola.info/">Hyperbola
GNU/Linux-libre</a> or
+                      <a href="https://www.parabola.nu/">Parabola
GNU/Linux-libre</a>
+                      instead.
+                    </p>
+
+                    <pre>sudo pacman -S emacs</pre>
+
+
+                    <h3>Fedora and Redhat</h3>
+
+                    <p>We do not recommend using these GNU/Linux
distributions, as they
+                      <a
href="https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html">
+                        include nonfree components and firmware</a>.</p>
+
+                    <pre>sudo dnf install emacs</pre>
+
+
+                    <h3>OpenSUSE</h3>
+
+                    <p>We do not recommend using this GNU/Linux
distribution, as it
+                      <a
href="https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html">
+                        includes nonfree components and firmware</a>.</p>
+
+                    <pre>sudo zypper install emacs</pre>
+
+
+                    <h3>GNU Guix</h3>
+
+                    <pre>guix package -i emacs</pre>
+
+
+                    <h3>Building from source</h3>
+
                     <p>You can download GNU Emacs releases from a
                         <a
href="http://ftpmirror.gnu.org/emacs/">nearby GNU mirror</a>;
                         or if automatic redirection does not work see
the list of

Message #23 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 23:50:31 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Of all those, the only one that is a free distro is GNU Guix.
  > > The others are nonfree distros that we don't want to promote.

  > I don't understand this

Promoting the free distros of GNU/Linux, in contrast to the others,
is an important goal.

There is more than one way to achieve this goal, but we need
to pay attention to it when we decide what to do.

                            given that we are fine with mentioning Windows
  > and macOS.

These two issues are partially similar, and partially different.

I can't be sure what you're thinking, but it looks like you've assumed
that the similarity determines the decision.

I speculate that your conceptual model is that we order all the
systems from best to worst, draw some line in that ordering, and
everything above that line is ok to promote.  That is not what we do;
it wouldn't give the best results.

The node References in the GNU Coding Standards explains how we look
at issues like this.  Mentioning Windows and MacOS can't do harm
because everyone who would read our pages already knows about them.
Talking about Arch might actually call readers' attention to its
existence.


I don't think you intended that diff as a serious suggestion, but looking at it
I see a serious conclusion to be learned from it.

Namely, _it isn't useful to mention the names of distros_ for which
'apt' is the command to use.  it isn't useful to mention the names of
distros for which 'pacman' is the command to use.  And so on.  There
are too many distro names, and mentioning them is best avoided.

It is more practical to list _only the commands_ that might be the way
to install Emacs.  Something like this:

   Here are some of the commands that various GNU/Linux distros
   use to install a package named 'emacs'.

                   <pre>guix package -i emacs</pre>

                   <pre>sudo apt-get install emacs</pre>

                   <pre>sudo pacman -S emacs</pre>

                   <pre>sudo dnf install emacs</pre>

                   <pre>sudo zypper install emacs</pre>

   On some systems, the package name must include the Emacs
   version number, such as  'emacs-27.1', instead of  'emacs'.

However, there is more complexity than this.  For instance, on
Trisquel you might need to do 'apt-get update' first.  Maybe on Debian
too.  Also, what about using 'apt' instead?


All in all, it may be better to say "see the package installation
instructions for your distro" rather than duplicating that information
from various distros here.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #26 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 16:32:27 +0300

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 23:50:31 -0400
> Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>    Here are some of the commands that various GNU/Linux distros
>    use to install a package named 'emacs'.
> 
>                    <pre>guix package -i emacs</pre>
> 
>                    <pre>sudo apt-get install emacs</pre>
> 
>                    <pre>sudo pacman -S emacs</pre>
> 
>                    <pre>sudo dnf install emacs</pre>
> 
>                    <pre>sudo zypper install emacs</pre>
> 
>    On some systems, the package name must include the Emacs
>    version number, such as  'emacs-27.1', instead of  'emacs'.

This LGTM, thanks.

Stefan, do you like it?

> All in all, it may be better to say "see the package installation
> instructions for your distro" rather than duplicating that information
> from various distros here.

If indeed we cannot says something like the above without confusing
people, maybe this latter way is the best we can do.  But I'd prefer
to use the former, if we can reliably say something like that.

Message #29 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:51:57 -0500

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
>> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 23:50:31 -0400
>> Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>>    Here are some of the commands that various GNU/Linux distros
>>    use to install a package named 'emacs'.
>>
>>                    <pre>guix package -i emacs</pre>
>>
>>                    <pre>sudo apt-get install emacs</pre>
>>
>>                    <pre>sudo pacman -S emacs</pre>
>>
>>                    <pre>sudo dnf install emacs</pre>
>>
>>                    <pre>sudo zypper install emacs</pre>
>>
>>    On some systems, the package name must include the Emacs
>>    version number, such as  'emacs-27.1', instead of  'emacs'.
>
> This LGTM, thanks.
>
> Stefan, do you like it?

Yes, it works for me.  How about extending it slightly, along these
lines?

    If your GNU/Linux distribution includes a graphical package manager,
    this is often the easiest way to install Emacs.  Please refer to the
    documentation for your distribution for full instructions on how to
    install a package.

    You might prefer installing from the command-line.  Here are some of
    the commands that various GNU/Linux distributions use to install a
    package named 'emacs'.

    [commands here]

>> All in all, it may be better to say "see the package installation
>> instructions for your distro" rather than duplicating that information
>> from various distros here.
>
> If indeed we cannot says something like the above without confusing
> people, maybe this latter way is the best we can do.  But I'd prefer
> to use the former, if we can reliably say something like that.

I tend to agree with Eli.

Message #32 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 23:36:52 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >    Here are some of the commands that various GNU/Linux distros
  > >    use to install a package named 'emacs'.
  > > 
  > >                    <pre>guix package -i emacs</pre>
  > > 

  > > All in all, it may be better to say "see the package installation
  > > instructions for your distro" rather than duplicating that information
  > > from various distros here.

I think the two fit together.  We can list those commands, that work
for lots of distros, and say "otherwise, see distro instructions" as
a fallback.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #35 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 23:39:17 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Yes, it works for me.  How about extending it slightly, along these
  > lines?

  >     If your GNU/Linux distribution includes a graphical package manager,
  >     this is often the easiest way to install Emacs.  Please refer to the
  >     documentation for your distribution for full instructions on how to
  >     install a package.

  >     You might prefer installing from the command-line.  Here are some of
  >     the commands that various GNU/Linux distributions use to install a
  >     package named 'emacs'.

  >     [commands here]

LGTM.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #38 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 03:08:19 -0700

tags 48023 + fixed
close 48023
thanks

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

>   >     If your GNU/Linux distribution includes a graphical package manager,
>   >     this is often the easiest way to install Emacs.  Please refer to the
>   >     documentation for your distribution for full instructions on how to
>   >     install a package.
>
>   >     You might prefer installing from the command-line.  Here are some of
>   >     the commands that various GNU/Linux distributions use to install a
>   >     package named 'emacs'.
>
>   >     [commands here]
>
> LGTM.

Thanks, I've installed the below change.

--- download.html.~1.23.~	2021-04-28 11:47:24.726860127 +0200
+++ download.html	2021-04-28 11:52:37.696388947 +0200
@@ -46,7 +46,7 @@
                     <div class="logo">
                         <a href="index.html"><img
src="images/emacs.png" alt="Emacs"/></a>
                         <h1>GNU Emacs</h1>
-                        <h2>Download & installation</h2>
+                        <h2>Download & Install</h2>
                     </div>
                 </div>
             </div>
@@ -59,13 +59,6 @@
 			FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, MacOS, MS Windows and Solaris.
                     </p>

-                    <h2 id="gnu-linux">GNU/Linux</h2>
-
-                    <p>Most GNU/Linux distributions provide GNU
-                        Emacs in their repositories, which is the recommended
-                        way to install Emacs unless you always want to use the
-                        latest release.</p>
-
                     <p>You can download GNU Emacs releases from a
                         <a
href="http://ftpmirror.gnu.org/emacs/">nearby GNU mirror</a>;
                         or if automatic redirection does not work see
the list of
@@ -73,11 +66,45 @@
                         the <a
href="http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs">main GNU ftp</a> server.
                     </p>

-
                     <p>GNU Emacs source code and development is hosted on
                         <a
href="http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/emacs/">savannah.gnu.org</a>.
                     </p>

+                    <h2 id="gnu-linux">GNU/Linux</h2>
+
+                    <p>Most GNU/Linux distributions provide GNU
+                        Emacs in their repositories, which is the recommended
+                        way to install Emacs unless you always want to use the
+                        latest release.</p>
+
+                    <p>If your GNU/Linux distribution includes a
graphical package manager,
+                      this is often the easiest way to install Emacs.
Please refer to the
+                      documentation for your distribution for full
instructions on how to
+                      install a package.
+                    </p>
+
+                    <p>You might prefer installing from the command-line.  Here
+                      are some of the commands that various GNU/Linux
+                      distributions use to install a package named 'emacs'.
+                    </p>
+
+                    <!-- NOTE: We want to be restrictive with adding more
+                    commands to this list, as it is a maintenance burden.  -->
+
+                    <pre>guix package -i emacs</pre>
+
+                    <pre>sudo apt-get install emacs</pre>
+
+                    <pre>sudo pacman -S emacs</pre>
+
+                    <pre>sudo dnf install emacs</pre>
+
+                    <pre>sudo zypper install emacs</pre>
+
+                    <p>On some systems, the package name must include the Emacs
+                      version number, such as  'emacs-27.1', instead
of  'emacs'.
+                      </p>
+
 		    <h2 id="bsd">BSDs</h2>

                     <p>The BSDs provide GNU Emacs in their
repositories, which is the recommended

Message #45 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:41:28 +0300

On 28.04.2021 13:08, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> +                    <p>On some systems, the package name must include the Emacs
> +                      version number, such as  'emacs-27.1', instead
> of  'emacs'.
> +                      </p>

You might want to replace these single quotes with <code>...</code>.

Looking good otherwise.

Message #48 received at 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>, rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 48023 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#48023: download.html has better instructions for non-free
 systems
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 08:14:17 -0500

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> writes:

> On 28.04.2021 13:08, Stefan Kangas wrote:
>> +                    <p>On some systems, the package name must include the Emacs
>> +                      version number, such as  'emacs-27.1', instead
>> of  'emacs'.
>> +                      </p>
>
> You might want to replace these single quotes with <code>...</code>.

Well spotted, fixed.

> Looking good otherwise.

Thanks for checking.

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