From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 08:11:59 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2021 12:11:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39616 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laH8h-0000tH-0u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:11:59 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:35414) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laH8f-0000tA-HP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:11:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36784) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1laH8f-0007gs-4G for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:11:57 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([2a01:4f8:121:346::180]:41111 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1laH8c-00020V-2f for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:11:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxqx.de; s=mail1392553390; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:Cc:To:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=vi2/lmURMq45F6t0O6t22NUwcI+5eotmKnIFBw6ju8s=; b=RibPsbm7IzMnMZMdTt956wcf1Y 3OYVkmQqWYcnnFp94Wu5hValnOcxq6wwdYSSic33kJyNMeZf9bfSkywDbpTcUHrIiJ66PYv9KArWm gpQkqHxIM3MWcHKqhAdB0Emu3SsHLpSjlFfoCdmFebKhxqOZ3rJgeN/PhM57G9/B23bg=; To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Daniel Mendler Subject: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 14:11:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f8:121:346::180; envelope-from=mail@daniel-mendler.de; helo=mail.qxqx.de X-Spam_score_int: -41 X-Spam_score: -4.2 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) (Follow-up to bug#46326 as suggested by Stefan Monnier) The functions `add/remove-hook` make use of `equal` to test equality of hooks. Using `equal` can lead to excessive memory allocations (bug#46326) or hangups (see comment in `set-transient-map`), when large closures or cyclic closures are used as hooks. Right now there are at least three places which have to work around the use of `equal` in `add/remove-hook` using a symbol indirection: * `set-transient-map` * `minibuffer-with-setup-hook` * `eval-after-load` It would be good to change `add/remove-hook` such that it only relies on `eq` to test hook equality. Then the symbol indirection workarounds can be avoided. However making such a change directly can lead to subtle breakage. Perhaps one could introduce some deprecation behavior first, before making the final change to `eq`. If a hook is added/removed and the added/removed object is not found via `eq` but found via `equal`, show a deprecation warning? 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YW4gc2F5cywgdGhlcmU6DQoNCiJJT1cgSSB0aGluayB0aGUgYmV0dGVyIGZpeCBpcyB0byBjaGFu Z2UNCmBtaW5pYnVmZmVyLXdpdGgtc2V0dXAtaG9va2AgdG8gdXNlIGFuIGluZGlyZWN0aW9uDQp2 aWEgYSBzeW1ib2wuIg0KDQpBbmQgdGhhdCBmaXggd2FzIGFscmVhZHkgcHVzaGVkLiAgV2h5IGlu c3RlYWQgbm93DQpwcm9wb3NlIGNoYW5naW5nIGBhZGR8cmVtb3ZlLWhvb2snIHRvIHVzZSBvbmx5 IGBlcSc/DQo= From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 16:24:03 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2021 20:24:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41570 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laOot-0006wp-2c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:24:03 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([178.63.65.180]:50009 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laOop-0006wJ-Ak for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 16:24:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxqx.de; s=mail1392553390; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ea3mu9IQQYWT3O6ArS499MO/1Rl+tsDwn7E7tq1j2BE=; b=QqMPJzQDN+29ZvWLk4/q2vUJgo uVvNZn73BKVGY2ICBYa1bOFJRLv+kDDDds6pdc73masPWUIpaUmqofviLfYguPWIyWX5XbpVM7/dx c7bkiw/Dmv99ojsVE5C8j/y5dSjfIZJTc2d/ISctsz2A67xrexz4FF4RGohe4mSjJD/U=; Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` To: Drew Adams , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> References: From: Daniel Mendler Message-ID: <95dee1b3-10c4-24fb-e483-ec3f36bdf5f0@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 22:23:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 4/24/21 10:12 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > So instead of just advising users not to use lambda forms > (which makes sense), you'd make it no longer work at all > for interpreted lambda forms (except rare cases where > they might actually be `eq' - e.g., same list structure)? I agree that it makes sense to use symbols in case you want to add a plain function as hook. However often you want to add closures; `minibuffer-with-setup-hook`, `set-transient-map` and `eval-after-load` are examples where this happens. In order to improve the support for closures as hooks, this change is necessary. It is not reasonable to require every `add-hook` user, who wants to add a closure, to introduce a symbol indirection. This is neither obvious nor easy. Even a very commonly used macro like `minibuffer-with-setup-hook` got this wrong. Furthermore I would argue there are no plausible scenarios where you want to add a closure or lambda as hook and then remove or add it again afterwards, but not using the identical object, but only an object which is `equal`. This is more than enough motivation for a change to `eq`. Daniel From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 17:20:48 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2021 21:20:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41612 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laPhn-0008JE-Pt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 17:20:48 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:40430) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laPhk-0008Iz-SX for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 17:20:46 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 13OLKCwU145193; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 21:20:12 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=eqJVykD6CLtHGzyZLqK+QZz1Orq9co3XC8ty6NngtxU=; b=KY3rbzOu2Arc+xLv07TWyYTXv9KxRbU3Xe22cJGSAKy9VdC/0dj7QpePYkoFiRdJRTGj 3S6asoZiJKUkUP0uHcVaoUdlezb+1X4XuF0/clXORsDdiV9G1r+DytP5l21GrLhVZrHA OuluoAsLsHUqE8M7ax4eIgw94BIDKHtBPZcdQUJmLdZteNyu2p8FQGruabmeYGGJWSZZ 64zSH1jacT18rCZyJuhXHbigqV4DY/U3m8+9sjuec8wLvS1XvUEkYA1qcZhI9sNdjX8C tOk0gqCQ1MQJqvchUixCr7tul9EEBNYCwAkl+WGW8BT4OLQkk9FRDF3gSK4J2ev0xiEc +A== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 384byp0r3f-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); 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Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` To: Drew Adams , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <95dee1b3-10c4-24fb-e483-ec3f36bdf5f0@daniel-mendler.de> From: Daniel Mendler Message-ID: <4a527e2e-710f-9c8d-8f89-00a97f93175d@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:34:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 4/24/21 11:20 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > Shouldn't your argument be that closure equality should > _always_ be tested (testable) using just `eq'? Is this > really about `add|remove-hook'? Why would they be > special in this regard? This could be discussed. But a change in equality would be much more impactful. There are reasons why one would want to allow structural equality testing for closures. I don't see a problem with it if I opt-in explicitly by using `equal`. It is still the wrong equality for `add/remove-hook` which should be robust. And currently it is not. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 18:30:23 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2021 22:30:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41656 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laQn9-0003ed-2F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:30:23 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:58644) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laQn5-0003eK-4H for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:30:21 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 8E1AD80810; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 825AC80533; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:30:07 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1619303407; bh=XEQsq7hOi9x5j1COM2FvmTleBrn2KLCR9TjBDG6XTUk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=JG0aFkx9Z7QyJmYZrTZvPdgjTBTuIlhIQ5GeZQ8KuYa+8/xXcfa6A/gVxBIzbyc8l ggQSIplG+/P6YFrNPMJ/r1WbzoNrMd3bF+QYbH6pxzKkbcJ1ARLQQxD/EprBcFyXGo Jc2teAwt8if8c3EgokbkuDHsN1bFmr9shmvX3QJf2TlaJURsCqERPsv5lGt/RI/D1D 2ZULonNxY4DLpQv3pfvqHyZmEWUq1cRnhuPFH6BtslWL+NNfuwfGje3lve57XBeqJm 9IAOLgiudQGRlzDtINOQbfKu3n/WIjG4zqoywIlUcq8vMWiUuBiAr9d3zSBVImE4Zw fIxWI/Ypd6uxw== Received: from alfajor (104-222-126-84.cpe.teksavvy.com [104.222.126.84]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3D54812033E; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:30:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Message-ID: References: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:30:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 24 Apr 2021 20:12:26 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.057 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > So instead of just advising users not to use lambda forms > (which makes sense), you'd make it no longer work at all > for interpreted lambda forms (except rare cases where > they might actually be `eq' - e.g., same list structure)? It would still work for lambda forms, just differently (arguably, in a way that's more often right than the current way). > Perhaps `equal' can be fixed to do something better with closures? There's no magic: `equal` has to check the structural equality, so it has to recurse through the whole structure, including all the closed-over variables to which it refers. > E.g., if the `eq' test in `equal' fails for a > closure arg then return nil? (I'm not proposing that.) That's what using `eq` would do, so you seem to agree with Daniel's proposal here. > And Stefan says, there: > > "IOW I think the better fix is to change > `minibuffer-with-setup-hook` to use an indirection > via a symbol." That was written in the context of a fix that needs to work *now*, whereas changing `add/remove-hook` to use `eq` tests can at best be a longer term goal. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 18:38:39 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2021 22:38:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41661 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laQv8-0003pe-TY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:38:39 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([178.63.65.180]:60783 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laQv5-0003pO-4D for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:38:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxqx.de; s=mail1392553390; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ZmBxNQLuZrpwEo1DB6s8fx8EDLqCKYbKlPvkCvNV3DY=; b=rOkMOP/8/CbrWRQSDPcGmM8bxk 5Q7zV+xyT8YLfTnVpJmQqpZmzNZxustwoBH6ixlGxsxDklQi4snrnC4C77+Et3zH9iLNpwLmX0FBc HEVEGgE9gmEiEpoVe9FEpdL275g/gzijcMR96qpIl1z9ZMmkNd75WCaLqDO0w2jHhwNY=; Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` To: Stefan Monnier , Drew Adams References: From: Daniel Mendler Message-ID: <090f8bd5-368c-5684-85e1-65420049d47a@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 00:38:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 4/25/21 12:30 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Perhaps `equal' can be fixed to do something better with closures? > > There's no magic: `equal` has to check the structural equality, so it > has to recurse through the whole structure, including all the > closed-over variables to which it refers. Well, structural equality on closures is an arbitrary choice. One could simply refuse to compare closures structurally and treat them as opaque objects. The structural equality does not even perform alpha conversion. This is probably due to how binding works in Elisp? (equal (lambda (x) x) (lambda (y) y)) Daniel From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 19:04:14 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2021 23:04:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41673 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laRJt-0004Ry-RV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:04:14 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:44471) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laRJr-0004Rl-6y for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:04:12 -0400 Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id A459A100311; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 3D9FB10001F; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:04:04 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1619305444; bh=hEPw85JIE9VgmbPtFRVweB53f7eyzO2ZqCtiVnVe7w0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Y9EU5AphPdwDxlyMbmb9nRQzGGRuexA/eoVGTFI2hF2lqQGgpCmMreqsCLcwYp8Mb 3n29mnxCvxoIm0xRHSNiHtim15a0EHDcBOyYrpC9ZAUYTdMws299wBSG7OVtATIk+a HaD6W8qaWDkB3EvIXkr1MoejcchOF0L1qSrvEzePLSkukGUMtd0u/cl95LeiC2HRtO 6C/rY4KYU5Qt6EAofZ1rCw+6i0PXFd08VZnDkCZz+OBI2pPUpno3PXGv2ad6VX7Ou4 2hX/ekmiTULoVF6mR9XHj8Zkre2Kxa/vCot957fV7gMJFAMLMSZmUBAhA5FPF3cxtg a+8Y4HHyvn7qw== Received: from alfajor (104-222-126-84.cpe.teksavvy.com [104.222.126.84]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 010AE1202C2; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:04:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Daniel Mendler Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Message-ID: References: <090f8bd5-368c-5684-85e1-65420049d47a@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:04:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: <090f8bd5-368c-5684-85e1-65420049d47a@daniel-mendler.de> (Daniel Mendler's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 00:38:25 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.040 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >>> Perhaps `equal' can be fixed to do something better with closures? >> There's no magic: `equal` has to check the structural equality, so it >> has to recurse through the whole structure, including all the >> closed-over variables to which it refers. > Well, structural equality on closures is an arbitrary choice. One could > simply refuse to compare closures structurally and treat them as opaque > objects. Currently we could do that for byte-compiled closures but not for interpreted ones. > The structural equality does not even perform alpha conversion. It partly does actually, by accident, when the code is byte-compiled, but only for the variables internal to the function and not for the formal arguments (because they "escape" into the docstring). Hopefully this will be "broken" at some point, when we add enough debug info to bytecode to be able to find the value of (and set) local variables by name. > This is probably due to how binding works in Elisp? > > (equal (lambda (x) x) (lambda (y) y)) Equality on functions is fundamentally undecidable and it's nigh-on impossible to provide a sane and well-defined "approximation" of it either (at least not without significantly restricting the set of optimizations that the compiler can be allowed to perform). The upside is that this fundamental problem was the motivation for the development of type classes in Haskell which are a great feature (nowadays used in most proof assistants and in several other programming languages such as Scala and Rust). Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 19:38:28 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2021 23:38:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41704 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laRr2-0005I2-Cr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:38:28 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([178.63.65.180]:52053 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laRqz-0005Hp-UJ for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 19:38:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxqx.de; s=mail1392553390; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=gbZ8/fnX88CtP/hhVy+1Pvh56A5iQhVq3rSBiBJ17eA=; b=e9gWxesGrkQjOrhg3rCBWTOack a2WESzBTCVkVrMfbOhUdF1vdG7C8muyHzTsmF0Ww9Bjxe1SoSUU+jI99ywOmVsGWbPWCAisoqGxDz VEDlmltpOFVxa+xBQ3lz1owc7rD8JL9z6L+POXBCPT+/VivDckhbaAce3NAHfZNe0iPk=; Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` To: Stefan Monnier References: <090f8bd5-368c-5684-85e1-65420049d47a@daniel-mendler.de> From: Daniel Mendler Message-ID: <3895c1c1-3387-a6f6-423b-a786bad24a5b@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:38:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 4/25/21 1:04 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> The structural equality does not even perform alpha conversion. > > It partly does actually, by accident, when the code is byte-compiled, > but only for the variables internal to the function and not for the > formal arguments (because they "escape" into the docstring). > > Hopefully this will be "broken" at some point, when we add enough debug > info to bytecode to be able to find the value of (and set) local > variables by name. Hopefully. > Equality on functions is fundamentally undecidable and it's nigh-on > impossible to provide a sane and well-defined "approximation" of it > either (at least not without significantly restricting the set of > optimizations that the compiler can be allowed to perform). Yes, for structural equality of functions there seem to be no other sane choices than the equality of the representation, maybe with additional alpha conversion. It would be okay to use object identity. > The upside is that this fundamental problem was the motivation for the > development of type classes in Haskell which are a great feature > (nowadays used in most proof assistants and in several other programming > languages such as Scala and Rust). Indeed. The Eq type class simply forbids equality for functions. But in proof assistants the equality problem strikes again, when checking if two functions are definitionally equal. And then there is this whole equality rabbit hole in type theory. Daniel From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 21:16:44 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 01:16:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41725 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laTO7-0007Wy-O8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 21:16:43 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:43898) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laTO2-0007Wh-LA for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 21:16:42 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 13P1F7Y1165755; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:16:11 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=xwCysK7OmOIWRuJ/wmb4wtwBgxot0yOseHhYsdESXt0=; b=IyRp3nfChRFkjY2phgjFcr8LRjYOljjxjXnNuL1CJWFd8uY8+iJdn6K7I6VqEAaQleR9 BYjAfZjayxcIu/X25lR7T1iBBPZhHUXUVv3uDpoV3ySKWzo8pH60vEGsbHtKUJa1quV+ /MFriTtcE1CxhHLqv8JMaWdx24cOu0rZvWh6frXa8TRvd2xdGmn0eKaPYIkLdvSWnWDC 0s1FGC3DiaCa/vMRyYn+oDKTlj1CpJ587bp+jxuB/DIGACuD2F2et6cnuCkE2SHy9hGR HZPPGRvtlti1mfeyFJ5H7Tpj7WU5PLTmXG9KRT2prI3BdBJqU3aZ+B4sr8rRZU8o6A24 xg== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 384b9n0v64-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); 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Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:16:09 +0000 Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2109:9725:fd4a:6494]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2109:9725:fd4a:6494%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4065.021; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:16:09 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier , Daniel Mendler Subject: RE: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Thread-Index: AQHXOXCRlAKe4jS4J0a4UimtXIDqyw== Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:16:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <090f8bd5-368c-5684-85e1-65420049d47a@daniel-mendler.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: iro.umontreal.ca; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iro.umontreal.ca; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 061c87d9-277c-4997-8b9f-08d90787b535 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2640: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 061c87d9-277c-4997-8b9f-08d90787b535 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Apr 2021 01:16:09.1143 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: BpQvg3ZiR2fmku3XTMEOgrQQbT1/hyZAxwbFDDseFU2ajrYoKwcN76BPkIxRpS1wnMF0htwFrXEeeJMrSftfvg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2640 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9964 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=836 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250006 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: DJX1OjUA2XbzsAg85kBET2P5XBx_xNKq X-Proofpoint-GUID: DJX1OjUA2XbzsAg85kBET2P5XBx_xNKq X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9964 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250006 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > >>> Perhaps `equal' can be fixed to do something better with closures? > >> > >> There's no magic: `equal` has to check the structural equality, so it > >> has to recurse through the whole structure, including all the > >> closed-over variables to which it refers. > > > > Well, structural equality on closures is an arbitrary choice. One > > could simply refuse to compare closures structurally and treat > > them as opaque objects. >=20 > Currently we could do that for byte-compiled closures > but not for interpreted ones. Also what I hinted at (I didn't know whether we might in fact already do that), and why I spoke specifically of supporting also interpreted code. Emacs users often use Lisp as part of their interaction with the editor, so: interpreted code. Lose that and we lose Emacs. IMHO. And what would we be losing it for? Some performance gain for closures used as hooks? If you're convinced of the need or desirability of such a change... To be clear, by lose that I mean the ease of using Lisp interactively, which today still means interpretation. You'll say that you'll replace all interpretation by on-the-fly jitty compilation... That's also why I wrote that hint about possibly doing something better with closures wrt `equal'. We're not there - not by a long shot. And doing what's been proposed here doesn't get us there.=20 > Equality on functions is fundamentally undecidable and it's nigh-on > impossible to provide a sane and well-defined "approximation" of it > either (at least not without significantly restricting the set of > optimizations that the compiler can be allowed to perform). 100% agreement. And there's no need for it, for Emacs. > The upside is that this fundamental problem was the motivation for the > development of type classes in Haskell which are a great feature > (nowadays used in most proof assistants and in several other > programming languages such as Scala and Rust). Meanwhile, back at the Emacs ranch, for actual users... (Not that a Haskell Emacs wouldn't be an interesting project. Please go for it.) 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9f6d632c-f245-46ff-6ffc-08d90788ac63 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Apr 2021 01:23:03.8561 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: wMeA9LB/5mi3+TmYt7CqkzRiJqhfqo5gePKsWw7Ph4ZwbMiy0bq3LKUo5R44GX2RCRjvHJ1tFJUskA66p0300Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR10MB4491 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9964 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=780 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250007 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: fyU8J6U_RnqXyvBdw0XgtwnQRKouux3d X-Proofpoint-GUID: fyU8J6U_RnqXyvBdw0XgtwnQRKouux3d X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9964 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250007 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > So instead of just advising users not to use lambda forms > > (which makes sense), you'd make it no longer work at all > > for interpreted lambda forms (except rare cases where > > they might actually be `eq' - e.g., same list structure)? >=20 > It would still work for lambda forms, just differently (arguably, > in a way that's more often right than the current way). Please elaborate. Comparing lambda forms using `eq'? Not clear to me how that works in the general case. (eq (lambda () foo) (lambda () foo)) ? I don't see that it works at all, let alone works more often than the current way: (equal (lambda () foo) (lambda () foo)) > > Perhaps `equal' can be fixed to do something better with closures? >=20 > There's no magic: `equal` has to check the structural equality, so it > has to recurse through the whole structure, including all the > closed-over variables to which it refers. That's what I was hinting. I don't see the magic either. > > E.g., if the `eq' test in `equal' fails for a > > closure arg then return nil? (I'm not proposing that.) >=20 > That's what using `eq` would do, so you seem to agree with > Daniel's proposal here. Not at all. I was saying that that's what I understand him to be proposing, in the context of `add-hook'. If that made sense for that case (which it doesn't, to me) then I should think it would make sense in general (which I don't think it does - no such magic). How does comparing closures with `eq' makes sense for `add-hook' but not in general? That was the question. I don't see that it makes sense for either. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 23:09:05 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 03:09:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41766 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laV8r-0001fh-AV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:09:05 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:64804) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laV8o-0001fC-V4 for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:09:03 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id A4209441AFD; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 3B1EE441AFB; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:08:56 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1619320136; bh=PDV0UNc4vsVywe9bmKBcvEplY2use0RdawIieIU0f4w=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=lHNZK4UqVSWKzLlkbbdtchXG9ZuGeA44+GruL6oDFb4TRKimrseKzhwtsbnrNW9Io mjv11q0jQpsduLb7DEBn24lL8rofa3L4ww+yDS0US8VAECRtTHld794CGorhqVj2eg srYYnL6WgSIIbOBpRSMuFN+I9gQ8AKqp24qodmwuEpIhIF65V+KlqEGQcK3R/zd/FH qQfOQv5f/aTJtBLLMwLg85Y4WFhWk9DC9aJhonJ0gUhLlGFXR37By87BIVmCYMOcrd n6fuYXZlBVCln8FG+E3JThvu2GITLVUvTamZu2CHo164GE80dzrep2ZT7u2qAqbqaO KnfinucIm4A0A== Received: from alfajor (104-222-126-84.cpe.teksavvy.com [104.222.126.84]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B2973120185; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:08:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Message-ID: References: <090f8bd5-368c-5684-85e1-65420049d47a@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:08:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:16:09 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.096 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Drew, what does this rant have to do with add-hook? Please stay focused. The only relevant thing I saw in there was: >> Equality on functions is fundamentally undecidable [...] > 100% agreement. And there's no need for it, for Emacs. Huh, without it, there's no `remove-hook`. Stefan Drew Adams [2021-04-25 01:16:09] wrote: > Also what I hinted at (I didn't know whether we might > in fact already do that), and why I spoke specifically > of supporting also interpreted code. > > Emacs users often use Lisp as part of their interaction > with the editor, so: interpreted code. Lose that and > we lose Emacs. IMHO. > > And what would we be losing it for? Some performance > gain for closures used as hooks? If you're convinced > of the need or desirability of such a change... > > To be clear, by lose that I mean the ease of using Lisp > interactively, which today still means interpretation. > > You'll say that you'll replace all interpretation by > on-the-fly jitty compilation... That's also why I wrote > that hint about possibly doing something better with > closures wrt `equal'. We're not there - not by a long > shot. And doing what's been proposed here doesn't get > us there. > >> Equality on functions is fundamentally undecidable and it's nigh-on >> impossible to provide a sane and well-defined "approximation" of it >> either (at least not without significantly restricting the set of >> optimizations that the compiler can be allowed to perform). > > 100% agreement. And there's no need for it, for Emacs. > >> The upside is that this fundamental problem was the motivation for the >> development of type classes in Haskell which are a great feature >> (nowadays used in most proof assistants and in several other >> programming languages such as Scala and Rust). > > Meanwhile, back at the Emacs ranch, for actual users... > > (Not that a Haskell Emacs wouldn't be an interesting > project. Please go for it.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 24 23:10:30 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 03:10:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41770 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laVAE-0001i6-MH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:10:30 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:46800) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1laVAD-0001ht-19 for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:10:29 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id C05BF80BAF; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:10:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 6BD8680801; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:10:22 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1619320222; bh=dKHBc3CAh1l6mdf90ptBhLPJnnV9HuvlKjP08nXmB50=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Zj35e4/3DV4e7BhdGX4UIQZ01+unxS44SuPSMqxoidfwZ8WFMeEI/6PjKPXHf2Ss3 7zhgmZGX3j0mJgMjXa62htEKez+YkGn5CLJNuBOn1KP+Ca+ffY6B6jjVEbtEo1Bz51 Z8AJqtX7s4J2eOIrt1hIkXpxOAALQDQoqFQ1lo1ivEX9hVBHV5fVDtAay3QgD+NMF6 9bdf15Ubn9axSwF6setP3BrOIi8yqP534lGI6ODQdOFoBZW27Mj8sj88yqkslF3nkC 4Em+tLG0Kpzs/u10XcQDNV/ZI2I3l3AtDalzebNE7LosFyg3WFNXPJHgJ6UH2Q1Vgu +eicFquXcAFxg== Received: from alfajor (104-222-126-84.cpe.teksavvy.com [104.222.126.84]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 36B60120337; Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:10:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Message-ID: References: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:10:21 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 01:23:03 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.056 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Please elaborate. Comparing lambda forms using `eq'? > Not clear to me how that works in the general case. > > (eq (lambda () foo) (lambda () foo)) ? > > I don't see that it works at all, let alone works more > often than the current way: > (equal (lambda () foo) (lambda () foo)) IOW, you don't have an opinion either way on the proposed change of semantics. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1cfe3d8b-bd3e-45c7-7633-08d907a6939b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Apr 2021 04:57:07.0925 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FRQlFMcqD8e4N4KbsH70y/BGXh4xpQ5voKZHJVtMZCZeAbn8R3YS1cP6eX5W92bl0fGuaPM6vS4GfCwyQf0GJg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2960 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9964 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=701 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250036 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 0cKGUmEywXWkH9pgPT4CmDcNiWT53qgy X-Proofpoint-GUID: 0cKGUmEywXWkH9pgPT4CmDcNiWT53qgy X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9964 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=995 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250036 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Drew, what does this rant have to do with add-hook? > Please stay focused. Please read what I wrote. I see no rant. > The only relevant thing I saw in there was: >=20 > >> Equality on functions is fundamentally undecidable [...] > > > > 100% agreement. And there's no need for it, for Emacs. >=20 > Huh, without it, there's no `remove-hook`. Read what I said about _real_ functions, which is whose equality is undecidable. As contrasted with the equality of Lisp "functions", represented as symbols, strings, or lambda forms. The latter is certainly decidable, and it's what we use in `remove-hook' to decide. "Of course, real functions don't have structure, and real function equality is altogether problematic. But this is Lisp, and some Lisp representations of "functions", at least when interpreted, do have structure (list, string, vector)." I agreed that equality on functions is undecidable. I added that (fortunately) we can get by with a lesser test of just our simple representations of functions. We can and we do. Our use of `equal' in `remove-hook' to test Lisp "function" equality has nothing to do with the undecidability of (real) function equality. There's no need, in Emacs, for "equality on functions", which "is fundamentally undecidable". 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Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:57:36 +0000 Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2109:9725:fd4a:6494]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2109:9725:fd4a:6494%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4065.021; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:57:36 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Thread-Index: AQHXOY+Bupoj9lhYvUC8hRwkSIh+OA== Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:57:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: iro.umontreal.ca; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;iro.umontreal.ca; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ce75f677-68d5-40c3-79be-08d907a6a4db x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2960: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ce75f677-68d5-40c3-79be-08d907a6a4db X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Apr 2021 04:57:35.9944 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: PrLQjlbUBEleQD2k3s5EVv7knqvgmeX7LHx0iqVtuRe61hwLdR59Rd49Jm6usSAvHpCYv6Yr8g2qC8QsCpOKWQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2960 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9964 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=711 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250036 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: cX06faR82JNgC346dJ4gc2fligXcQ9wW X-Proofpoint-GUID: cX06faR82JNgC346dJ4gc2fligXcQ9wW X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9964 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250036 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> > > you'd make it no longer work at all for >> > > interpreted lambda forms (except rare cases where they >> > > might actually be `eq' - e.g., same list structure)? >> >=20 >> > It would still work for lambda forms, just differently (arguably, >> > in a way that's more often right than the current way). > > > > Please elaborate. Comparing lambda forms using `eq'? > > Not clear to me how that works in the general case. > > > > (eq (lambda () foo) (lambda () foo)) ? > > > > I don't see that it works at all, let alone works more > > often than the current way: > > (equal (lambda () foo) (lambda () foo)) >=20 > IOW, you don't have an opinion either way on the=20 > proposed change of semantics. Seems to be your favorite way of (not) communicating: saying that I have nothing to say. How about actually elaborating: Tell us how using `eq' would enable the interpreter to test equality of lambda forms in the general case (not shared list structure)? How would using `eq' "still work for lambda forms, just differently (arguably, in a way that's more often right than the current way)"? Forgive me for not understanding what you mean by that. ___ As for my opinion on the proposed change: I haven't seen a good argument for using `eq' instead of `equal' to test for equality in `add|remove-hook' (in the code: `memq' instead of `member'). I gave good arguments for continuing to use `equal'. Emacs users use the Elisp interpreter interactively, and they do use lambda forms with `add|remove-hook', even though that's not a great idea. `eq' doesn't cut the mustard at all, for such use. Barring a good argument for using `eq', I'm not in favor of such a change. Given a good argument, I might change my mind. Clear enough? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 06:33:33 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 10:33:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42058 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lac4y-0004SZ-Pd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 06:33:33 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([178.63.65.180]:44283 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lac4v-0004SI-EE for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 06:33:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxqx.de; s=mail1392553390; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=YptK6Q+cYbrxG/JAx49OTqjHcZBcmZfl4ndbpbN/8bo=; b=Sz6nmKLyPoa5wPSA6XqwZNKymG oLfs7/6/JYI+ODuYszp5/Q6kTv24DfawJsBsl0R0JrjYVwj50x4wv+dZWBMdse4hByRezE9OhEiZ8 fLLQTEFvhamV/4RgJKjO5Aiw2SCM+ftr9zEkDs9Be+zEdK99GeMkP6WVMWggj3eink3o=; Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` To: Drew Adams , Stefan Monnier References: From: Daniel Mendler Message-ID: <3e43f9f4-68c1-a797-8bd6-8394d5512ac1@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:33:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 4/25/21 6:57 AM, Drew Adams wrote: > As for my opinion on the proposed change: I haven't > seen a good argument for using `eq' instead of `equal' > to test for equality in `add|remove-hook' (in the code: > `memq' instead of `member'). > > I gave good arguments for continuing to use `equal'. > Emacs users use the Elisp interpreter interactively, > and they do use lambda forms with `add|remove-hook', > even though that's not a great idea. `eq' doesn't > cut the mustard at all, for such use. > > Barring a good argument for using `eq', I'm not in > favor of such a change. Given a good argument, I > might change my mind. Clear enough? Drew, it seems to you don't read the arguments which have been made and just stick to your opinion of "not applying changes". You argue that `equal` is better since the user can then add/remove literally written lambdas interactively. We both agree that this is not a recommended or reasonable usage of the hook functionality. I argue that `eq` is better if you use `add/remove-hook` in a perfectly valid way, adding cyclic/large closures programmatically. This is an accepted practice, since we add closures in `minibuffer-with-setup-hook` and at other places. Furthermore it is a significantly more important use case than the interactive use case you put forward as argument. Now we can stay with the borked semantics of `add/remove-hook` and continue to use `equal` to cater for your example and require all the reasonable programmatic usages of `add/remove-hook` to go through the totally unnecessary symbol indirection. I don't see how your argument holds up here. Daniel From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 09:52:57 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 13:52:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42257 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lafBw-00039k-RX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:52:57 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:31375) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lafBu-00039W-IG for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:52:55 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id C6DE88089D; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 83743807A1; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:52:47 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1619358767; bh=poPKby+nZr/YQOqjYp09v4yafMBSE8ejsici31KxwJo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=hOyvI7VpuUk6QJxTKskLT9vW8VkGD4i2pxXH3nNsmOMzXCOP+pYaReq9AHekPGu8i wgcwqWWLRYGnJCoun+6udtC5lQ51d0i86kDYr+IPXr6tgY53xfpiZav1VeXsaPKwf2 dxxReQqap1h689yog9wVsWvNtYSQQxoOuWtgPK6SLn0+FWp+k1c6cPQOs9KBysb8iP u3bJQ/bdXI4yRfxye+qF8zTkOZywe3zMy+d4HVii4mEnkBsPFMdAhADP/NFEutxZtx +FEOfvOiRJFHfGdcXiyrRnvFBdIw991/kDg0cPw2nK2/G13NqLD1qPp3CtcH9gG/Ml MAg1dPj9NNcsA== Received: from alfajor (104-222-126-84.cpe.teksavvy.com [104.222.126.84]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4212B120323; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:52:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Message-ID: References: <090f8bd5-368c-5684-85e1-65420049d47a@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:52:45 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:57:07 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.055 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Read what I said about _real_ functions, which is whose > equality is undecidable. `add/remove-hook` sadly lives in the real world. > As contrasted with the equality of Lisp "functions", represented as > symbols, strings, or lambda forms. Strings aren't used to represent functions in Lisp, and the case of lambda-forms is the case that's actually causing real performance problems in add/remove-hook (both interpreted and compiled). So, yes, symbols is the only option remaining, to enforce the `eq` semantics which seems to be at least as often what we want and doesn't suffer from performance problems. > The latter is certainly decidable, and it's what we use in > `remove-hook' to decide. My comment about decidability was just a side remark that doesn't really matter for this decision. I now regret mentioning it. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 09:56:24 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 13:56:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43338 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lafFH-0003VD-G2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:56:24 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:7014) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lafFG-0003V3-E9 for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:56:22 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 1439C4402A8; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id DFBAA440530; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:56:15 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1619358975; bh=W/2O+ZkYiErYy/J3iIlWCZgX1Z6W5c2tBh+TE/Z8HhM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UzLZJ+wCc1A77nCmnar2sUqFQft85riPYqT0aTprhP9bWOIB0mRvL+WNErQMN3QNx x4Ub6g3PO2yWCy+y8o6enQ69lCEYt/pZK6BeRmcp94a/LjXsP+QyiR/IuUpJLpMwX1 6FQLIfh6awmg4wT58MG+cmbj419YwUgRrh9k5jMlEWWsm8Lv0OnOOUoaii0ewu251I ITEmm2v5wBS+Ww5QanuAjxAI1L4G3zYUAumyMMiU+TWQj4fNtZ8UMBA85WtRH8RCEF ZIsrm/ba/wg6ged5Geb0jMxL/cp8LiEYwtFUUAKO+CTSijKoTf+xpJ6qOzpIXAnhu4 57dxiVrkGFURg== Received: from alfajor (104-222-126-84.cpe.teksavvy.com [104.222.126.84]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A24E41200C3; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:56:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 09:56:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:57:35 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.094 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Seems to be your favorite way of (not) communicating: > saying that I have nothing to say. Because you've written several pages of text in this thread without giving any concrete example arguing one way or another. I find this to be a very unpleasant way of communicating. Please stay focused. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 02 05:10:03 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2021 09:10:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41680 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ld871-0002Pv-IZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 05:10:03 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56182) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ld86y-0002PR-Vy for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 05:10:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=aiVXYvtOtFqhCCnfXtTVWZFrYfYp5JGeGxPqXIImXpA=; b=LXOvgpOV/A7lq+FoIMuxcsAgHK uoLC05K442txBoB8x9+2xIQzh9jHrfwnlOT4/EPZkCp09vO90oFYzjV9SUFJi5vNG71+WQS+ziJ6D rKJMV+PH1wgjFv3f/FIuo4UYnJvYKcfFUIe0cwwyobI0F1ZSB+B1f91FQFVpZvYIpbf8=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ld86n-0004kW-Cc; Sun, 02 May 2021 11:09:51 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Daniel Mendler Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: X-Now-Playing: Nico's _Do Or Die_: "No One Is There" Date: Sun, 02 May 2021 11:09:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Daniel Mendler's message of "Sat, 24 Apr 2021 14:11:48 +0200") Message-ID: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Daniel Mendler writes: > It would be good to change `add/remove-hook` such that it only relies > on `eq` to test hook equality. Then the symbol indirection workarounds > can be avoided. > > However making such a change dire [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Daniel Mendler writes: > It would be good to change `add/remove-hook` such that it only relies > on `eq` to test hook equality. Then the symbol indirection workarounds > can be avoided. > > However making such a change directly can lead to subtle > breakage. Perhaps one could introduce some deprecation behavior first, > before making the final change to `eq`. If a hook is added/removed > and the added/removed object is not found via `eq` but found via > `equal`, show a deprecation warning? There are two issues here: 1) Should `add/remove-hook' even attempt to do uniqueness checks when adding/removing things that aren't symbols (or more generally, eq-able things), and 2) Should `add-hook' disallow adding such things? Today, it's super common for people to say (add-hook 'some-hook (lambda () ...)) in their .emacs files. This isn't because they have any expectation that add-hook does this uniquely, or that remove-hook will work, but because that's just what they think they should do. So I think 2) is out of the question -- we can't deprecate this, and we can't issue any warnings about doing it this way. (Even if it's "wrong" -- it's just not feasible to disallow this.) And since 2) isn't possible, I don't really think 1) is possible either. People do `M-x eval-buffer' their .emacs files, and since we're using `equal' here, this happens to work -- almost by accident. (If they change the lambda, then they get two instances of the lambda in the hook, so it's "wrong", but it's so common.) So I'm not sure I see any way forward with this. Would adding a new pair of functions (that are `eq' only) help in any way? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 02 06:37:35 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2021 10:37:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42097 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ld9Tj-0003a4-7L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 06:37:35 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([178.63.65.180]:50221 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ld9Th-0003Zy-DH for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 06:37:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxqx.de; s=mail1392553390; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=wbMG+JNJqGNg4vDHPHG24mK/RfswWHGRj7oq0HxMdjU=; b=ZuXUL1fdtlmE+jq43yEORdzxxc uY+wlGqFEyr0HutfmN/vRueaOL+xpa0kVnKC8uscLxidy5v/wrx0L1tBmTxBER5jWj0xRpDUmGjRa 8yRvXlcU8HCRxrkRhqAW3VyLxEG/eiF2W9UtSqhrND+cuTc2OPSbqcGM6hPmt+9wFsug=; Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` To: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> From: Daniel Mendler Message-ID: <8b715c19-e6bf-90a8-75a2-3ae3e1ace563@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 12:37:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 5/2/21 11:09 AM, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:> And since 2) isn't possible, I don't really think 1) is possible > either. People do `M-x eval-buffer' their .emacs files, and since we're > using `equal' here, this happens to work -- almost by accident. I understand. This argument is pretty similar to Drew's argument, but realistic. The problem is that people expect idempotence when evaluating their ".emacs". This property breaks as soon as we require `eq` and if we want to retain this behavior we have no alternative than keeping the current behavior. >From my experience, relying on this accidental idempotence when evaluating buffers almost ever breaks in more intricate scenarios, so I am usually not relying on this behavior. But making it break more often is not a good idea, in particular in this important use case of the ".emacs", which is one of the points where people get first contact with Elisp. There are the following resolutions from my perspective: 1. Do almost nothing, but document the behavior of `add/remove-hook` more precisely. Add a warning, that the functions should not be used with large/cyclic closures and an symbol indirection should be used in such scenarios. Generally it should be recommended to add symbols. 2. As you propose we could either add new `add/remove-hook-eq` variants. 3. Add an argument to the `add/remove-hook` functions, which allows to turn on `eq` equality. I assume the problem is mostly gone now due to the patches applied previously by Stefan to `add/remove-hook`, which removed the depth information to avoid leaks. In particular the problem with the original `minibuffer-with-setup-hook` I observed was gone after the changes to `add/remove-hook`. So my favorite resolution is 1. Daniel From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 03 04:50:33 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2021 08:50:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46190 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ldUHg-0007eO-Vq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2021 04:50:33 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:39262) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ldUHe-0007eD-4I for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2021 04:50:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pglmuWifz2FXN/PyAeu9Jg0TOKtsr2utakJJZGIqC2I=; b=EYMvLus98J2yJz31T2loYZugqd V+upeyQM87axVSbmI5iJTnB0QXBoXgrkML0YOA8wof7U4st0IZoWjAjsM0y0j1C/Q7b6OJ9nSAXtm fFmCxhRlwHOezthDq5Spfh1hoWIFNYKK6tkUvbeu/X/3O7wNuxO/wEEJanBgKKQRYJKk=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ldUHS-0002ZY-PV; Mon, 03 May 2021 10:50:21 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Daniel Mendler Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <8b715c19-e6bf-90a8-75a2-3ae3e1ace563@daniel-mendler.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEX18e6IenU7KCq6 qqP////NhAZvAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UFAwgtITJYGwYAAAF1SURBVDjLnZRrloMg DIVD2YAJGzCwgdDsf29zA45infnT9Gg1H3kSJPpCWOoiysyiAwy91op3KLkQveoJtIm6O2V3I6oL 4KoFYOjTAgaDCfQOT3egbPjbwtPiSmrTZuMpfQDVsXbKLXj7A6jRG87JUcfdAu87kXWfIh+AjvQW C1wnuLmq/wFcrfOGarxH/DVGo7Q9LUquuyWT9wN43ayb9Bp1NFkAGpJ2YXkAaVT22kbheoENd9eC taOfi4UBNI+tD/a60rWuljmAyplViXidkmEi5tasLXFKvoUuVr0WgHGiXeoeJbZ0AI8oeEIG6rFv 7zmi1V7TokSmcraEIyR6mC2y6PyxH5hbnW2W+jlwI7nN+QEEHSyWDXs1gYxTAAs0tzg0uU+gA7Sw Mh+L0wUQOqatxWSdoHicgHASwxa36YpxKHCSMn4oPl8xmOdcTgNbY/ipyTdQfkEocdbyAU5PA4T4 BDeDKWkNbvRrmQ+LNz/lm0/PD+2LX9+nW6Z9AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTA1LTAz VDA4OjQ1OjMzKzAwOjAwv2JNrwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0wNS0wM1QwODo0NToz MyswMDowMM4/9RMAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: The Style Council's _The Complete Adventures (1)_: "My Ever Changing Moods [12'' Version]" Date: Mon, 03 May 2021 10:50:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <8b715c19-e6bf-90a8-75a2-3ae3e1ace563@daniel-mendler.de> (Daniel Mendler's message of "Sun, 2 May 2021 12:37:24 +0200") Message-ID: <87a6pcdwvp.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Daniel Mendler writes: > 1. Do almost nothing, but document the behavior of `add/remove-hook` > more precisely. Add a warning, that the functions should not be used > with large/cyclic closures and an symbol indirection sho [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Daniel Mendler writes: > 1. Do almost nothing, but document the behavior of `add/remove-hook` > more precisely. Add a warning, that the functions should not be used > with large/cyclic closures and an symbol indirection should be used in > such scenarios. Generally it should be recommended to add symbols. I've now added such a recommendation to the add-hook doc string in Emacs 28. > 2. As you propose we could either add new `add/remove-hook-eq` variants. > 3. Add an argument to the `add/remove-hook` functions, which allows to > turn on `eq` equality. Adding another argument to the functions doesn't seem all that attractive... but... neither does adding a new pair of functions, really... I guess the doc change might have to suffice here. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 03 04:50:37 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2021 08:50:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46193 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ldUHl-0007ea-75 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2021 04:50:37 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:39276) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ldUHk-0007eI-AS for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2021 04:50:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=JW2bZrJ0lXd1Ucco9rHR9VAsUTM4JZoL+51UCe7Mbpo=; b=D4TmcpYVdOm812neUsjLDtYEC4 VewTFBCdo76ocT7/zZbcTM+e1oao2L1RuHJFYsaP6rKxZXCYayrzVthmVJDo12HOEstOuIcAiNCs2 5BdAIIEtPlg6tWtpyEgc/X+oiTXV/WErf0uQOENcH6ckg+IVIBZuYLltVmO8EHqffeMU=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ldUHc-0002Zv-SP for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2021 10:50:30 +0200 Date: Mon, 03 May 2021 10:50:28 +0200 Message-Id: <878s4wdwvf.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #47992 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: tags 47992 fixed close 47992 28.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 47992 fixed close 47992 28.1 quit From unknown Mon Jun 23 14:58:46 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 11:24:10 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 03 20:58:46 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 00:58:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40111 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lzqT8-0003sm-C5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 20:58:46 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:52531) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lzqT5-0003sS-RC for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 20:58:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1625360317; bh=e9f1tPjcWKmnhWvwFAIP3EUN1kqtuw0csmMsgBjCHzg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:To:From:Subject; b=KCsLOrSnGIaUDMwq7LV1Hv3rR6ZXCW5oTvTFOGG4yc+fDNvKpVYN9uIQyfKQdvmAi 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s=dbaedf251592; t=1625360359; bh=shd61yMYXOuBrxPqjs7KVGg6GquJTSDz3eosq7IpYWg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Resent-To:Resent-From:Resent-Date: X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=g4Yf6ZwJ6o0uGbAOthZ53c2dl7vk6Xbgln2pTeMd6hN1R0rJllFQ/imIDXVt0za3f ZDng+mPd63xE1+5XApkkhx2hfUBmrKo5IRFN4ecdW2Xyg7RWxiOLlHyABaaVeHnzLv KNQej8RMnU74wDjaixBHPwSc2fUO8jgdxBRVakaU= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.45]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mfc4q-1lXPUF1O9I-00g1ka for <47992@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 02:59:19 +0200 Resent-To: 47992@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Resent-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 02:59:18 +0200 Resent-Message-ID: <8735suuc61.fsf@web.de> Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]) by mx-ha.web.de (mxweb113 [212.227.17.8]) with ESMTPS (Nemesis) id 1MeSY2-1lRskK2lFs-00aSJV for ; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 02:32:12 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1625358708; bh=shd61yMYXOuBrxPqjs7KVGg6GquJTSDz3eosq7IpYWg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=JIabI7PcbwmvXtVv8PJyS4EjfrhEFu+5CDvRHQiKvLgaaAWHF8J+2Kn/sOZMWd34Y bApdGr5dSHW+7sW0HQirwdpAw1lc4sgWEk8mmZ2JC+mmKDHWmJa3kyCDvgNr4UICqL 3xGw6CYrYYVXmxAqVaZMMR6o0Kfg0KdomqX+RLn4= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.45]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MhFlo-1lVkQ53Q9K-00eLrQ; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 02:31:47 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 02:31:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 02 May 2021 11:09:48 +0200") Message-ID: <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) 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Ingebrigtsen writes: > 1) Should `add/remove-hook' even attempt to do uniqueness checks when > adding/removing things that aren't symbols (or more generally, eq-able > things), and > > 2) Should `add-hook' disallow adding such things? That would be going too far. It's perfectly ok to add an anonymous function to a hook and keep a reference to it to remove it later. `eq' testing is ok in my eyes - `equal' might be too much. Are there any reasonable use cases for that? > Today, it's super common for people to say > > (add-hook 'some-hook (lambda () ...)) > > [...] > > So I'm not sure I see any way forward with this. Would adding a new > pair of functions (that are `eq' only) help in any way? If you ask me: that problem exists mainly for end users and their init files, it's not that we have a problem in Emacs. Instead we should try to provide a better tool for users to add stuff to hooks conveniently. Since the problem of identification is not trivial - how about forcing the user to specify a name? How about a macro like (user-add-hook foo-hook my-configure-foo-keybindings code...) ? Here `my-configure-foo-keybindings' would be the unique name (the uniqueness of the name could easily be tested by the byte compiler). The name would be used to avoid multiple adding (a second evaluation could just remove the old version from the code before adding the new, so that changing the CODE... would work). Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 03 21:09:31 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 01:09:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40204 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lzqdW-0006Qh-Vi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 21:09:31 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:42018) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lzqdT-0006QT-FL for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 21:09:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=hZKyYDiCBaGwZtFxAlpSbDB3Mm3HXwWXo1IOF5RTU8E=; b=mDqJUIK7wk1+6SPwd+3MIsmb5i FlXsPssoUG58MkMLTusL9R06xVy1ykJ+QAuiDw/UHUbGR0J4u/o2Bv56cthBcJ4sfWhahdZNrdUmw o0wOcqHSs9CMtknSERtiHL875X2ulnSMZaMbF0wKK5K07L7wVXwmxoUy3vAOmhlxLijE=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lzqdI-0002ZJ-9S; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 03:09:18 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Michael Heerdegen Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAIVBMVEUAAAAWAQQkAgdY AhE2AgpwAhVFAg1lAhMYEAooGQ3////zPJ6kAAAAAWJLR0QKaND0VgAAAAd0SU1FB+UHBAEGCgBS T3kAAACNSURBVDjLY2CgBDAKKmIVFzZ2EhTAIs4SAtKERSIdbBpMSwPCggIwhWkWiwAOCRFcbhXE JSGE03c4JQRwGQgSY8Lmc0ZBBiEnrIYxJWEPQwbGBBzWM2GXYExLD0lxwSahyOIgiN37TA5MOCw3 EsAhkeKIw1UOjCrYdSjgDslRgAZmTiBVoqNhoN1MTwAAOlIMYMcu6tsAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3Jl YXRlADIwMjEtMDctMDRUMDE6MDY6MTArMDA6MDCZmWyiAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIx LTA3LTA0VDAxOjA2OjEwKzAwOjAw6MTUHgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Kate Bush's _This Woman's Work II_: "Them Heavy People" Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 03:09:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 04 Jul 2021 02:31:45 +0200") Message-ID: <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen writes: > If you ask me: that problem exists mainly for end users and their init > files, it's not that we have a problem in Emacs. Instead we should try > to provide a better tool for users to add stuff to h [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: > If you ask me: that problem exists mainly for end users and their init > files, it's not that we have a problem in Emacs. Instead we should try > to provide a better tool for users to add stuff to hooks conveniently. > > Since the problem of identification is not trivial - how about forcing > the user to specify a name? How about a macro like > > (user-add-hook foo-hook my-configure-foo-keybindings > code...) ? Some other languages have the ability to add names to anonymous functions (yes, a contradiction in terms) to aid debugging and the like. We could also extend our `lambda' with an optional name -- it seems like that could be generally useful beyond this particular use case -- and then this new add-hook function could refuse to accept name-less lambdas... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 03 22:36:00 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 02:36:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40235 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lzrzE-0008S3-GM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 22:36:00 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:58661) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lzrzB-0008Rm-9A for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 22:35:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1625366128; bh=90Va2Tc7ruhqN0pJX4IHTK608p/EPWQUhv9ypZMfAQs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=jpqi3zRTM1gohtnMhWqpYeEBQrEArPZk4QfFmnBSbLpseeMwCXA9bE4Uiwr4pPmZn vzi7AU1xtqB7k2VCn8HvRT1WU79C6fyKrh/ncxiLZsu5PY6pHqPKSYm++e2NjiEtS9 0uI/arhMOAYOQKwE6fb/VqwxkqAeCcwV0zEHhhK0= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.45]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mrww5-1lNFV44Bm9-00o2ad; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 04:35:28 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 04:35:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 04 Jul 2021 03:09:15 +0200") Message-ID: <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0QEZ/ZP3b2EyxlAiDbaUGHdHOR9ATPXZU7Re9Y+DK6D7vVB0VUC QRrs5KqAhSu1gNrZ3MXVj7T4KIkrU8Vr++ORtY24vF/FbdTkoRawWMlMF7lX8k/knVQlTX4 duDvlFqbiLUpk5UydyXFHq8nhvaUNonZaCHLxHIDhaoYoqh5yWFJFMWh2ztDojHCJn+Ncmf HzdN5DOPq2iWaEqEPJU1w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:C5Vqs4d7XxY=:lHyBqzI8aSPcMqV9q1UQoB MkcjdgbxBA075S6RU9gWVvGLceVWCHs1aZBKa6xoV4/YDhnC5iyQZXIzvcIh380V7FVVEYN0q C4QWHlUcj4s8IpKKBZa7ZNoJYKN71+mv5FzmgsVEgZQw/XVBlz+AWBpfybGdYUPNXPgnRvCGG 59Q55XzovZ/HhyRaSdBg78diYaeheEdX0o10egv5u7j25uTefYL4E8hK6yXGJs64pLPaOtCB+ iVbV2563dkgzq+a3FTkGdxXrmCiNO7bHA41fmDouGqnoR7QqXOOA6fGbtBgkXRYrjhXNHkEF1 RGSXOaApR8IN8axOZf+/AXAbqBzo7G/fI6mNK5iLD3estBTcofBaum/ijciACk725z0+vA0aM aoQM09/d2Bw+SGdzW0JX+LFMRC2gl8Jfe1TDnj3c4NzaT7xbTEDGCXg/QZeGHGViqyLR8NSBj 6QmaeftMa28Im0dQgiiuxlu5UMyGkFXjhiLaafcVR5jnsNkLmMkquS9CmtZkj6fYB++zPxd2v 2i6F/CQjp9as+HsHReABnV8d7YepSHQYsyGjxxwy8oxx5Q3J7Q3cVwNZ1YAc4bYbZpLHT89Xk KX/14ovY/oYdpbEe8lubFsgTd4MgStTHcDbmlUhx0GQ4W+bHDgZWke6bpgaGteoCqC06x9HpH bkH7DkHrokXwzZ5FbD73sVUR0dhd/PeN1Rk621UV0BAks5w44PRXzd3XtOFGYDvcBRcOGJzDt fu9X2A7FLM+b3fGPA7byllseOtHcZzFPEQZ5xgYurwXCVLMmZe3a3H7HfLu2cmazF6PFP84Vv bQy8QTzyWTsUHskAX5rmnXwMq3LHaFLsR+R90atzCt8Xf9BHaZA82Wd2yrtYpRnRMyco1KWFk 5pEsbhSOFBVsaNQ6WHpAKuD8fKeGfNsQin9c+fSDXTsnoEaAln7H561P/uAi5YaiAG9jcmvgR 6VPUabepXYRe99IIQ2Q8TCHtOEjS3DUFvFXFp7VNQjpJmsDkIqGOvqTJMan+3hh7Tp9SfPEfv Gy0q9hs6tzIsEe+pNrIDNUX3536TZZuLopOWuYePSdC42IcRjdTxG/jymawZL2Rc2Tag/ihZw 8D+GRSa66pefzI0+VHxt1pniQmOa4hkbRra458uknYabq5/hn8mc55tzQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > [...] > and then this new add-hook function could refuse to accept name-less > lambdas... I must say I'm skeptical: in the case of `add-hook', this would be not much different from forcing the use of symbols (aka named normal functions). Why add another name space (and the complexity this implies) - where is one too limiting? Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 03 22:56:36 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 02:56:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40251 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lzsJA-0000Tj-9s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 22:56:36 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:42652) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lzsJ5-0000TR-Mp for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 22:56:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=N5KCud82Rn+MORA+toz/FP4wxGuFcOEWBqxaPlkNt9k=; b=JEUBNurmJvie4WOyT9tGdgyzWx x8VOv6s7rUTK41oTl5g36hMWepsRBHOMKICj4u0lALr3ouXoAxBFLurIQOI+TxGcfPXlR4eHuTbwj 3t0c16XAzCYd7VX8GNSjJ3wEv2G0lCrfZIVzt2KEQnOXO+512fZxZHqTFNJCGha3Aww0=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lzsIu-0003Xm-8w; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 04:56:22 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Michael Heerdegen Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEUeGR+Re3LTxrtY T07///+Xc/odAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UHBAI3IB/yP0QAAAGGSURBVDjLbZOLscQg CEUxNCDYwEoawNB/bw80JjF5zM6OuQf5KAKEMSkgDGsKt5G5UM61JnhaAlbHgLW7TcMmiq16FFZI Mp19XSOQex67f9MERLzHtnCO1DN9EjcC3XKT35KYq0hp+cgR6GlCeog0zrbqYCkDnYleW2olktp+ b2CRXvajvgGJVEqyLbF01Jv9/8i6+GOACii86pD2CBUBXxkwY+HisT65dYui8HUefU8vV/QDol63 rw7sgaSnwBWIGLSzPUeqnTcwNNH0G3IHLZbsbYPk41FULwP7cRsc+QM0xXyMScMbgDWWfwGPFgp8 AfkOtDfwqqRYTNULsNQ4p6XlAVQ5bnAZAhvUp2odHWvXfcy2e0QsY6410XUXAdCIx8ZtpycwqwNg P5LrKsxaHaHKqBCnbjTAsftDizvpolvzCYd4UDyKQjvN9QgSZ2uoqhO53h8u9uawTP9W4tcnoXe9 h3ubVG9wad1gAi9WH/poN95LeVZ16v4MYraeBG6QFGZ7Q/8DDPBBb1+qZyUAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6 Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDctMDRUMDI6NTU6MzIrMDA6MDBriQF5AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAy MDIxLTA3LTA0VDAyOjU1OjMyKzAwOjAwGtS5xQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Peter Gabriel's _Plays Live (2)_: "Shock The Monkey" Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 04:56:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 04 Jul 2021 04:35:26 +0200") Message-ID: <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen writes: > Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > >> [...] >> and then this new add-hook function could refuse to accept name-less >> lambdas... > > I must say I'm skeptical: in the case of `add-hook', t [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: > Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > >> [...] >> and then this new add-hook function could refuse to accept name-less >> lambdas... > > I must say I'm skeptical: in the case of `add-hook', this would be not > much different from forcing the use of symbols (aka named normal > functions). Why add another name space (and the complexity this > implies) - where is one too limiting? These would not be normal functions, but lambdas with an id. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 04 00:29:21 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 04:29:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40283 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lztkv-0002co-Ho for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 00:29:21 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:57311) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lztks-0002cY-DP for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 00:29:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1625372929; bh=6vO0f1jzmkJ9z07Y+MRdNjPsIlqJoh5de03PTBYTzbM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=bomRJv54stjKdv57nF4H7npMBOO9u6MKWohrpYYUtDGFPXlAwUZ9NnyxW8bKgL5Ls XW2CWQcBJXt+8UM8zOsyn4wxGPS9StSxWwz/o+WUFq6lD7yBJb1znxfy+YC/J72I0t 6Wh0ICpoJE4vsjHSIsnmvOVYR4nKpTO22Eabyjes= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.45]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N6sBp-1l8QfO1Eqt-018LZb; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 06:28:49 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 06:28:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 04 Jul 2021 04:56:19 +0200") Message-ID: <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:krR5YkRxZj+Oh3wqb5zr07sUCm/SusHLXzA7ENMLNzxLYGr3MnK JyeNUAOLV3h79m5aIGCA5y3kLc9DjXbhJcZm9qlicv8ejwVJHXGPoSRVKOVmAuFGTmHD1O6 x9Maxx3XbNW+yYEIjW8Q0ziaq5DAoLnMI+ws5yQ8HtBFMPLOI41JsOTW1v4M7JFP4QBbsuE QHfSPeMXATzvRQLqc8qLA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:v8VVxN1g/vo=:MYwchrbQf5X3ucbBR5wepU hlyvbFB0GAUYw12FuPL9KTb0N3MP0V1U1DcYSWicugqk94X67K83LoMskNt0vkSSteqCcrlmu aHprrykiQ4zGmXhC8KFmynH3Lau2B+D5LGlH/252uMxkxBBJfR2WV+W8gd5C4QuvJAWrbTXmT xs1ZQDWAC/B866DPpv8y/MIn7avcrSuYcnzZZmK3p6MN4yHVd+JI7f4ipRKsFTxr05eHiqXLt J0FF9HirwGw8ywY4RLncp44eD/gvaZhx+vJBszGW1OOOn6ceh7TTTjPNYxKv7CdOF6ekhBFxE ZegoktHmZQwEk37AwKbbHGL/SHG34vhAk94aS4ruRU7gABp72Wu4DX0x8z42JQqlnP0B0uz9W vxdZfBeALkDmEnF6PTS1PTjcYR8QoHIzYRU4M3MJOLIua3kavSBCSFmpiWiBZqt01c7WGYaBs b7zhvGNiwnGkCElkx6URsoLjXxqIVIMYGVmql77uWKSCvwJpuLDNZ6pZgzipEW7UV/0MF4yvb TiSPXQ59C1b20UTKdQjN/043eNDj2riM5nnfGPy8EDybLYhzCtL1ja6pUZWnWYtCtK0k410HM lRFcPwvBlGBz7n8tYA87GvSni4GspsZWJIwzfm++zkBpvBlPSgq9tqE5wDQSI5DGPv4U1TGl6 pfy1gvrIUDFC4SnNK5zIH3u4Zcw5Surco1R0hDYwM6gPuM9udSz5zZUsQGhb7v2y+WAgINZMA cjdKOE6fCRIZxdk6S/EARm7XUngUDvlSVSA4FmOGS5Qo9JRsJgqbR4OYgWIZfrKoJGt6QQLEG hFzOAwkSn8L2xTmhx/DndJykXSpW8dP2X7d6yausoGKKiwk5xZ/ujgXJ715KQPYC5cesYUg3n O9duCOUdgIPz4D97rJaakpwUJ21cWxudz51rbhkjoQZiZ4/5VSRZdsr93GaX3RADcoUaBluFF dL1+8nhXNfhr/98ikomNkeVXTetJLrZkSkcY9YtZ/xZvu/ukPBvrCVQB6RGmZ6/xyZxjjyKUg mDuLcY2L5XnJUmGA9R4Mfc6Y7tCV4AqqfuFgGvOTuJLc91ssyOYIPWQGJaKbxYyvshkbfEb9d nw7mW1kYc6abfh5o3grLgrKJkP2T/bLqVIqUqmgtB+3vKQhrEPruyzqJA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > > I must say I'm skeptical: in the case of `add-hook', this would be not > > much different from forcing the use of symbols (aka named normal > > functions). Why add another name space (and the complexity this > > implies) - where is one too limiting? > > These would not be normal functions, but lambdas with an id. That's the part I understood. But what advantage would these offer, compared to standard naming? Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 04 09:36:24 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 13:36:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40575 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m02IK-0003g1-6r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 09:36:24 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47044) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m02II-0003fk-1f for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 09:36:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=kWEn3YjcpQckXgYSVoLvhfVuL/duzPq+ILyjbHNtgJ0=; b=VSF26aqLHrfmdzu0Pr+NjxCuej uctTwFpS4MvU5zC4KorQAYbzyyXxWXRvPqDW4b18rOr5vEsT88sQ3dO/4R6XUq67NUJw2ZYIla8wB EZ9OuxSh2+10q9TQRvLxXZwwTY0g7WkadeqNLtv1nJofpf8zMHP8Bzzg6iK3Mw2boLfs=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m02I7-0000lV-Mv; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 15:36:14 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Michael Heerdegen Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> X-Now-Playing: New Order's _Power, Corruption & Lies_: "Leave Me Alone" Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 15:36:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sun, 04 Jul 2021 06:28:47 +0200") Message-ID: <87r1ge42wk.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen writes: > That's the part I understood. But what advantage would these offer, > compared to standard naming? By "standard naming" you mean "define a function, and then use it in `add-hook'?" Experience shows that people avoid doing so (for various reason), so creating a new form to cater to this use case mak [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen writes: > That's the part I understood. But what advantage would these offer, > compared to standard naming? By "standard naming" you mean "define a function, and then use it in `add-hook'?" Experience shows that people avoid doing so (for various reason), so creating a new form to cater to this use case makes sense. Especially now when people are using lexical binding more, when it would make sense to allow people to add/remove/change these closures in hooks in a convenient manner. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 04 13:08:13 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 17:08:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43205 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m05bJ-0006Wk-5O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 13:08:13 -0400 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:27530) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m05bF-0006WZ-B6 for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 13:08:11 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246631.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 164H3TF6010453; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 17:08:03 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Sun, 4 Jul 2021 17:08:00 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Michael Heerdegen Subject: RE: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Thread-Index: AQHXcNmwC8N3p0vqvUegTRbrzXJfwasy+tJw Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 17:08:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> <87r1ge42wk.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87r1ge42wk.fsf@gnus.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnus.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnus.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e1617d76-9499-404f-ab29-08d93f0e4728 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2671: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e1617d76-9499-404f-ab29-08d93f0e4728 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jul 2021 17:08:00.4022 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4EXTML2mdDpn2USgoEezGVGEUtP94BpifPnbwhqM6muTY8EJdlpoFcaiZ5r+3+CcK1EGRnj5DYS2fu2FHF3B9Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2671 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=10035 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=695 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104190000 definitions=main-2107040107 X-Proofpoint-GUID: DpLncbhSIFTn_dAYFNUp0I3E6C_fXWTH X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: DpLncbhSIFTn_dAYFNUp0I3E6C_fXWTH X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > But what advantage would these offer, > > compared to standard naming? >=20 > By "standard naming" you mean "define a function, > and then use it in `add-hook'?" Experience shows > that people avoid doing so (for various reason), > so creating a new form to cater to this use case > makes sense. FWIW, I disagree. There's no real need for such a "new form". I think the use case you've imagined for it is a s t r e t c h . Users will just as likely avoid making any of your new forms as they avoid named functions now. The "various reasons" amount to laziness (which is often the right approach), and that will be the same reason for not naming lambdas in the new way you envision. There's a reason lambdas are anonymous functions. Here's maybe another hint that it isn't needed: Has anyone ever requested such a feature? And if there really were such a need, you could just check for non-nil `eq'uality of a lambda's doc string, instead of adding yet another "new form" that will likely ~never be used. And even that feature - using a doc string with a lambda - is rarely used. As the doc string of `lambda' itself says: But documentation strings are usually not useful in nameless functions. Let's not add another ~useless "new form" for lambdas. They already have a doc string, which I'm guessing is as much a name as what you have in mind. If you really want to test with `eq', just use `eq' together with function `documentation'. That'll save you implementing the same kind of thing for yet another "name". Same test: (1) are both "names" present (non-nil), and (2) if if so, are they `eq'? And the same problem will persist: few will ever bother to provide such a "name", even if it might help them with `add|remove-hook'. You have a solution in search of a problem, I think. Users just learn the hard way (but the doc of `add|remove-hook' could be improved to help them learn) that they don't want to use lambdas as hook functions. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 04 18:46:13 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 22:46:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43360 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0AsO-0008AX-RV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 18:46:12 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:50563) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0AsJ-00089n-9N for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 18:46:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1625438733; bh=3V8OHZ/bjytnA57G3Mxd+fxTVbXNNUauC7mSF2456MI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Fol21/6TOdcQN0/CkS8iIk6b2FA7DT0UH+WuvTe1bAJ4Ni3LHqjL7nSQPCR8+5uYv fTaviRAbRu288oTNBrqJSShgzEMed/HjzFGwD9xhGXcBSa7eRwuwn62DXo9lkwKwCb i3ixcTeuWCxrd7wAjR4ArffYCXlZQXpHW5ssRon8= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.45]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MKrPw-1m0Arl2Wps-0001gF; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 00:45:33 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> <87r1ge42wk.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2021 00:45:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 4 Jul 2021 17:08:00 +0000") Message-ID: <87czrx1ywk.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:pCA+/e3nVTooc0A76Sn72KNDqNjAhsgCU3A2wQczV9gSi59tAub 6vSxd9YDXJueyB4Q05bxQOJONUgknY6U0QnaG8wYhFjN9Dit6Dj9SZO1JbBFuoQjNgr3dj0 Toen+doreNRYfGmDMZdutFFp7NIHS6lvLwgVZN61/IvbCbj9DuAppKdRv+dO6L6ybEtJJoe F3Jw/5L9Rais6XqXB4zhA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:/DKANEIf/Ss=:urxYm9G1NjMg85csRZPiQ2 rtjEMfD/QIReRc2NvtpZsWeAD9/W23LeHdmBIipgcWmHRzvS+AIu9hr7JfQYGy1xU2V5vKSCV NIVCf11JtdFGCRMcb+QjD7JwlhSq/uaC4gQhHhK6CA4wFbijTB1yUgNVds4fZ1nhRPLHn0gHl 53qxAWFoUGju3SvKC7kEy7Qow9IxL7O10xvT1fG/BxnI1iYuCsPem0SfWVxOvKxqF5IVk8P0W kboOjinLneyJjGZyvvB1miw7phb2762eTy4lk7dYF0wIjRTQCxTRd6OExgCvuw6liQfouDrn8 rS/pto7npufPZeIJXvyflcRoYeUpMxoBJ3+fio+wdZIgpb7bzezIy/kGm1HuTsyVIhxpg5OMd ExKMcDsZgIphbu2TJYVM1NO7DaNmGrBMXKrbHoZnKKSGsDaeURw8TWQfXSw7zOsrzNBoAkF8F WmUuMDmTUM3qQeiL7loFM0pc7mi8EnbZF7RbYiHOhMY6MfVI+fWg98yWWzK+l0G+nj7fAVJuS e3ylHOdJquTtNxiQY0X8L94EhHmbE/cGeqE+Wl7oEGRtChNNWkwmdo2TZt83Aoxh5O9/LzHH4 s0dXg+O1+/qD2JuxqvKsi/yH4UbEXLTmfqZtHL++AAvqPUYRq1AqmVKktyTLZzXK8lJH8LNTe YnI/7IDlrxaIsgMtisczJu1wEu2uoI4YWFbLyfb/b6umzXnnQlesdNIcA1s1YXGHeirPMiI/v yZMAM1rHKpNxNPztcFPElbH3xRjFavf3zlDZWgPEIMxogugItjIO/uWrH/JNjRgDbT2CZtCK9 AO/s4V6XJqYwfdOZCTVuQPmNqwLPlab3ur2QICsipisTqdFRYBAJAXuXj6cNlrbXh2jOWSwJW XB84el8cvhdOEG+aHxgmIbPX3uOMh+l3p32HVt72b5+XgctpR6UpnNXs4KdHYVWqFsKcgh6py FJiAsIqJS/xObHrg3gUsMt3jAa91X4QPjFDkwFy1VWNMwX5uo2Jr8jlVq0QpRN9h3GKqpE0le L19i2rFndgERB8gRl1j+s2q8H26vE/eQlbZLDUvJSFEOTtoR51o45YU88WqlqtNEsJnOWsMVe +wdn+pPEd068jrPP4iGA6bVAiskw1YORmLLklvckBLTO0Aofga6U7dZ6Q== X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , Lars Ingebrigtsen , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew, these are exactly my thoughts so far, thanks for writing these down. I only see disadvantages, and that's why I asked for any concrete advantages I might have missed. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 04 19:15:58 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jul 2021 23:15:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43380 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0BLC-0000PJ-1d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 19:15:58 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:56069) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0BL9-0000P5-5C for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jul 2021 19:15:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1625440527; bh=3vexodtE5JYmwEA0NI6oa1U+NfcKbxzqonh423LAbSA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=XUt9jzRQPPd98reJBRXIxaW46VO0ADXfsF8b+Aclk5yF8Bfmdwfq1JNUI/BB/aRok M9Nax1qdR3Xt1Y9/707ZbqRIVCAWL2m8hIpdkdpTBjmJttbLU1wEF/znl2VIYHkA0c qs79QAvWv09ga+j3SGGRG8AS+zUTDIjCaoJ/Lm+w= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.45]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MJFhX-1lkRtc1IKp-00Kd7S; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 01:15:27 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2021 01:15:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 04 Jul 2021 03:09:15 +0200") Message-ID: <87eecdoelu.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vBZu4daF1CmVUdZfhS/hfqWql/V9/bzvx0wPPk99dfT1x0OBhuA LIlgqBbt+vDl+A7sH8cWXkChN93CC4MySPwXQCADxdMlebss3RMDbg7Y4v/AbFv6Az2DnlI JCnJdzwuNZTy/CBGGsDKJgCcktLs7tTlg+gqDPUO1jX5a8LqRmRxyMe6QwaE7gyutewVTAz MmD2Mhnts1T1n9rbrmPjw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:0qE2XWoXYU8=:9tNz798e05kjg/rXPUhG/H NN77LFoxYb71mE8720Os/1S8qhFXH1Lc/ESgfY0itZ12LFhCtIUkXVM+QFuPP/jWrPoeTf0NO fXyk2jiSgRUjy5Qeqj2CC6oxdQt6SstoXjtWF2BObG3ZnigmvIsOe2ZbX73Cxkke/wUXAL1Gq NN9DaV0z8S0ZHJOcnghMPwuVAbUAd6jq8l8cGxdg478MW6nFSjIGRbiWQd/yXG35unyoPj5C+ IFJKj2QG+h14AF3FxuGZdwOb1h7gu1wgu+9d3Xks66VOXFHSctBzGn08JlmLz3IjsUDbDtrLm sVw35FUXMNeOdWpXPKjLFofTFo/vaTJpwxtC0Hx0jwxBs583UGGtrX77y9JFeEAzR1UQzVa1G h3sd0aZEDtzOgE46LnB8OsNjuETBc4Jszy6RUiUb5pvbtr9fa7IrBw7wt/RwGGYjy22qWR6Lb 0IDCNokZJjfIu5YYchl+9Ak/F3NVz+AtQ6LLNqsgoqedlPNV6FHkkh0hiONF4tlBLfVL0buzY FbmdkVkZH/BhVVWckg4SWtoRIVANuvor0LYCSqdGXRfSxvQ8c+i6c4GLFpZwxyVrzCjQ8iPcv SJ9ytYf2ckvenTUcwU7fweAOUPS7qd6kKeFTGpHnF86NGnf3BS4ACRGOpXCAyVamyrvD82Lqh 6RKpTQrc/9KUplQsDlrn1aviaOl7/UFJhoMk5vrgsR3uKt/EHJD3eGCwMXekWFaTfpxNbJpWy UfwmtxzhwqeO1zf0E7jlwGZAXxhqZeQVWiS3Vm6Ci+XcN4kENQSwaDMWpum+yCxLsIst+PtOK keHmr+2VLPXbZl01Vn4MKOAevWe2A9uxLauzFvQo557P1RpQ3xOWs1DHYu0pBiUNseqYHznAz JhHdAPYiTSNXCE43fSQxvcsYrYp4Xnfw+dAdoxf+LLE/Di2w1BC/auu08y9n5ykW8jWzGT538 UcQvAygYtqkHoKX50P4jbPCDmdAUPAMLzSwhK4Yq0lDXUivhX9DfHIpm0HTH1paxV4tK09XuS rKymoIF/TMA88zBdtUkh6MHbktLY6zWgXcR14u5NgOUN+m5Pap6HnvkDfcrY/Eo2zOASGYMqp QDIjxNRLt9VAW2GKjRuPzfGZjFDkTrV6aicK7cTWMTqESQiAKy45pm7tg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Daniel Mendler , jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Some other languages have the ability to add names to anonymous > functions (yes, a contradiction in terms) to aid debugging and the like. > We could also extend our `lambda' with an optional name -- it seems like > that could be generally useful beyond this particular use case -- and > then this new add-hook function could refuse to accept name-less > lambdas... BTW, I think you can have something like that by misusing advice, e.g. (example at the end): #+begin_src emacs-lisp (defalias 'function-name-advice #'identity) ;just a tag (defun named-function (f name) (unless (and (functionp f) (not (symbolp f))) (error "Not an anonymous function")) (when (advice-function-member-p 'function-name-advice f) (error "Already has a name")) (add-function :filter-return (var f) 'function-name-advice `((name . ,name))) f) (defun function-name (f) (and (advice-function-member-p 'function-name-advice f) (cdr (assoc 'name (advice--props f))))) ;; Example: (setq my-test-lambda (lambda (n) (+ 2 n))) (setq my-named-test-lambda (named-function my-test-lambda "Moon Child")) ;; => [bytecode lambda] (funcall my-named-test-lambda 3) ;; => 5 (works) (function-name my-named-test-lambda) ;; => "Moon Child" #+end_src Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 05 08:40:08 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jul 2021 12:40:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44369 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0NtP-0000eC-WF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 08:40:08 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56856) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0NtN-0000dX-Kv for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 08:40:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=VMkNp1G5QSOCufpSScZlQX3Mgqxly3Jhhmn0uKoaDrs=; b=rwb/VtaUUva7snMm2gpD2SN3yz b/fRiVn5zLPUIDHiO7m0nS2f8zsiAAMZTx/Hl5Rx+OhKIX/TFzfkuvxGkwzp9aZ01ifkraqXRlT98 eCh44lVz7S/5PrxLH1lytWKV/mKlD0cj76wCExMsmagbLLgQg4DHlfyQEsaPAwaRjjZI=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m0NtB-00049F-PC; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 14:39:56 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 4 Jul 2021 17:08:00 +0000") References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> <87r1ge42wk.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-Now-Playing: Narrow Sea's _Caroline Shaw: Narrow Sea_: "Pt. 2 (feat. Dawn Upshaw, Gilbert Kalish)" Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2021 14:39:53 +0200 Message-ID: <87zgv1ylwm.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Drew Adams writes: > FWIW, I disagree. There's no real need for such > a "new form". > > I think the use case you've imagined for it is a > s t r e t c h . Users will just as likely avoid > making any of your new forms [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Daniel Mendler , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Drew Adams writes: > FWIW, I disagree. There's no real need for such > a "new form". > > I think the use case you've imagined for it is a > s t r e t c h . Users will just as likely avoid > making any of your new forms as they avoid named > functions now. Languages that have added naming to their lambdas mostly do so because it eases debugging and the like. We're going to see more and more code in Emacs that's based on closures, which means that our backtraces will just contain a bunch of unnamed lambda forms, called from asynchronous contexts, with no easy way for xref to jump to the location(s) where they were defined, and profiling will have the same problem. It's true that users will commonly avoid naming their lambdas, but library makers (in Javascript, which has named lambdas) often do put them in -- to aid debugging and profiling. My suggestion, though, for the particular usage in hooks we were discussing here, was that the new `push-hook' (or whatever) function would disallow using anonymous lambdas, thereby forcing users to name their lambdas (in this context). -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 05 21:48:22 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2021 01:48:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46928 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0aCE-0007JD-01 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 21:48:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53470) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0aCB-0007J0-G7 for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 21:48:20 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55628) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m0aC3-0004Js-Ve; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 21:48:11 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m0aC3-0004uL-Gh; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 21:48:11 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sun, 04 Jul 2021 06:28:47 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2021 21:48:11 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: mail@daniel-mendler.de, larsi@gnus.org, jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] People are proposing a lot of work on a little wrinkle that isn't worth much effort. There are other changes we could make that would really help users do editing. Here's an easy way to help users avoid such collisions: to say they should include a name in each anonymous lambda that they put on a hook in their init files -- a name based on the user's name. Adding a name to a lambda is easy. Just write the symbol after the argument list (and doc string and interactive spec, if any), like this: (lambda () rms-init-3 (glum-mode 1)) The mame will distinguish it from any otherwise-identical function such as (lambda () j-r-gensym (glum-mode 1)) because they will not be equal. Thus, the only change needed is in documentation. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 05 22:37:21 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2021 02:37:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46945 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0axd-0008Rs-F9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 22:37:21 -0400 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:47026) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0axa-0008Ri-3h for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 22:37:19 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246629.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 1662RxTP011094; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:37:10 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11b::15) by SA2PR10MB4812.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:115::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4287.31; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:37:07 +0000 Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d9c:ca1d:2bc0:c861]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2d9c:ca1d:2bc0:c861%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4287.033; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:37:07 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: "rms@gnu.org" , Michael Heerdegen Subject: RE: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Thread-Index: AQHXcgke1jCqeDz53kW3Nwrd5p8NKKs1MkNg Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:37:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> 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([127.0.0.1]:46974 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0bey-00013N-NJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 23:22:08 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:43709) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0bet-00012n-SM for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jul 2021 23:22:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1625541690; bh=W/Sf3WO+M3IKHDy0Mkb81L4pmZZ2TVa47WXXdK78yms=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=FCy4qDNKjVGklXPGzH0A4I87LZIfh2D0HNnnqy4j+4CUvp9qYqcJpZW9oPuIv/csV RvGZOeISX+dBBYHyvNIOezQ9Mfajpq4zM7Lb1nWodwtgWyFPIj9bf5QQpqrUCqrxhc 9RTjdRrRzfPCL4ue6fXJfSO73GHag8WmRWOFFr5I= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.66.201.45]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb003 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MQeqb-1ldBdU3kqr-00TyLQ; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 05:21:29 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2021 05:21:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:37:07 +0000") Message-ID: <87pmvw2klk.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:qdys1sGAqcHXPONEsXHK3azfkFve4EW4uEoUdxlZ55Y9TYy6j7J faWX/Q8yGmMyldxILg6eJU+GVmqRCLkvDfhz6ttLh3lZYznbDr3RZ36Voajoijb/ezdXQFz 2GsY42zhBtZbTR1p+u0EK459qiWrDaSIhJvjMrE/KnfnMATn3NaQoJvrDyNCixUsQwB0HaR YcAo5K/9paJR9AKqr319w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:hO+FMO60w5o=:GB6ANElh9gtekIFsXBLHM1 HUDr1X2SqSXYN2WiBRE3ALY9C6QrF6dxRvFzBx3DNQS/7rxPYqthigGsHHIUZlWheIpTYZ9xG 6afKtelTPzcw8wBogYFZOz8jwH5sQS8HdOLZA6imw60guuaQgBkoSEd1S1SeMEBEcopSLX5JJ EHn+XTNQslDLKRR8MjMNDF67ez2PCXhGB1j6vBzT5BVMpbinchD3+FjMpQYMI+b9m/WA8lB5z IfTYF045lYTVFU9NHz129njHn6exalg/Y7zYFFwNzRFx6NYOlvP5Ol/g0mviAfqu6RPjgruoU KXozjTciLcovc4as4QJ+FgTHyEJwJOcHqyCt8PibW2/fc5qbCRxOdLYFlVqtzUizmbzL9QNBW qvu0JkfH9T7Acjgapzt8OGTKXv5LRPT/hsQpZcTknxCWfrcin8YA3d2Uwp5MpMEVheJ/2dT8+ vtiHBEo2Yx0mljRZ1ROgpN+y10pEVEMrozlv7RGbMVgHiOo2U2UdogqzoYsS3SRqkeaOsho/u f99CkRkoe9rwIf69nG1cLeHv4ECpT/ASym5MBOm3NgeCwUi3WZQAXP65IThpdG8TzAR4Ejbid e6QxqjIVGhsmjL4LKn5QfUkiA2GsFPJn5maK9SZESmdt33EQNSOc2aW/z+ccdgFA89dkI0kEA 9gS2K4M65RVODDd5gkhOmgGI/R5niAsQFwkwNCLlAGMyHhQs0XhlVipztEFIsRJvFNU4Z4hih sY4koCydu7j6KHuUUopqpLoRdcBPvg3jhEgk9Ct1ZJPwh69HVVBrNGhsEjh+JYWun2QeZSWst o0MXTxSiZDoOK3aO0oxBnPP9euRm8ogn/I154lnyujDOV8uP33Ob+TBS+fRD1MABdtXRwK9k2 fJmZFwDCBOW/Pza7nLAzfk/TuGTcLySSAYOCQ5JA8RJJ25yGOUEUtSBHMMUAqRDIlPzpDTQMd cx/rwZgqfUI3H9KR/iKj98A8m/2KiY0c4dcRTetg2ljvytUQ0ZAA9Q+BwVlAS1iVlnAC8Hk/V SlhTtjxpEJ3Sr7NtZGsPiNj7tO3Zpql+XIQnRUcJ00uhpeAUBz6J8GIzG9tdpYL2OPjGGbp2K f43dIIKMKkLmIkgoH7ly1krGCykWAC++8k8yg5fCNdZbPPOeJsGA8vf+Q== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: "rms@gnu.org" , "jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no" , "mail@daniel-mendler.de" , "47992@debbugs.gnu.org" <47992@debbugs.gnu.org>, "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "larsi@gnus.org" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > But I and some others also think the whole attempt > to provide more or less `eq' testing for lambdas > is maybe misguided The original complaint was about `equal' testing consuming a lot of time. That might be a valid complaint. `eq' testing doesn't create problems unless for those not adding to hooks correctly. So moving to `eq' and providing better help would make sense to me. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 06 05:46:12 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2021 09:46:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47394 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0hed-0000T1-Sk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 05:46:12 -0400 Received: from mail-db8eur05olkn2020.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.89.20]:18977 helo=EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0hec-0000Sn-35 for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 05:46:10 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=dJyKZtOge7qelP/Ov7VzOiSxuUf0gFd0fcIXkcmTHop875aiU+AGkGeAJlUEv+zW1EgtOgB1GtCb4+EwdlWmuGj3exYlcpf5Ur//F3mRFMy6ebtuCQchP6litr0nNYZY8yBDCSEv69pAfhowe6oKMzSDxLPn2YTe4wyTK/zhb+1qXG27l2Pxx2eFkpMB3iuVofiSxc3ooM4QNLBbUaMNFajF39iiATibpap06ceAZ5fPAwlFaTNysl4vJSzXC02YiNzWPHIxwnkJa2ZgxnbZrg1rf8CJQlS4a5vUXa1F//JEN/IhFI6rWT60XhDYvB8+jTVZDwvtwgx81SNtvXZylg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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Tue, 6 Jul 2021 09:46:02 +0000 Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::4f) by AM6EUR05FT036.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::478) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4287.22 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 09:46:02 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:74C57C31D89664B52F26325176199C5C3711284CB9830D0EB83B5A34178AC0CB; UpperCasedChecksum:34DF1EE25A8F68ACB84ABD4019E8D3B81AEE405CAB40B8447E7FB837881E1857; SizeAsReceived:7810; Count:46 Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::656a:1596:f5dc:12ea]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::656a:1596:f5dc:12ea%9]) with mapi id 15.20.4308.020; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 09:46:02 +0000 From: Arthur Miller To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2021 11:46:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 05 Jul 2021 21:48:11 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Content-Type: text/plain X-TMN: [kOxAsj+4iXyrPLZz0aLTJpGP2SjZGt1q] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P194CA0025.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:90::38) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87mtqzg4h2.fsf@live.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from pascal.homepc (81.232.177.30) by AM6P194CA0025.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:90::38) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4287.22 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 09:46:02 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 04f962e4-a964-4a65-ab86-08d94062ddf8 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM6EUR05HT130: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: upv/5/dH3ZsBil0TaN3GWA0K4nXqp15CJ9HCK27+M8ATfGeDYhQxgTz8y4Th30eRdV+AvQi9sAXRhmiOdMncb1AYU+tHGY914+jAQCwnTle2ad983BcPwaHL6AmCNy8Xs4qyDBBsDRNb23HDsjnCI6FbQEyjacf1Mq8OrIOs/QiXX1i6Z2+3u63N5OInLWfA3iBwShBpYveJmEU8WEg6jcTyP9tTfT9n4XQRFN1tBvGWSm/S+c3KUPV6rtaQG4bJZNAy1W5Q927RaVnrKLB3F3YlZM4RWmk6oatqIW6CGAZzT3LZ1KPAPNtiE2p/sGkV/YDfXNBnCPrQQLOQP4KS3kN5/g1hXosTvdN3tnPqh1OqTVKlUy5PJLCVfr6RHt3CZytBB7yHGoLCEvjb+uSc7+n00/rkgqF1KbaGDqkaySEtPt+/F2DndCamaEgwRSVW X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: RCviYciDfg/fSmTd3OrJVyG2kA0IzgMLwUkNG8tkt2fpuHWzHV/WNA53uNFnNV0Lidp7wGM2teQG1APZ4Wtu/81pIwkC72l0pRda367+y5+PSHMWEYZsU7gh87s/nZu3EdbpZZ4FnCp2FwCBE230Qg== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 04f962e4-a964-4a65-ab86-08d94062ddf8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2021 09:46:02.8662 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM6EUR05FT036.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6EUR05HT130 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, Michael Heerdegen , mail@daniel-mendler.de, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > People are proposing a lot of work on a little wrinkle that isn't worth > much effort. There are other changes we could make that would > really help users do editing. > > Here's an easy way to help users avoid such collisions: to say > they should include a name in each anonymous lambda that they put on a > hook in their init files -- a name based on the user's name. > > Adding a name to a lambda is easy. Just write the symbol after the > argument list (and doc string and interactive spec, if any), like > this: > > (lambda () rms-init-3 (glum-mode 1)) > > The mame will distinguish it from any otherwise-identical function > such as > > (lambda () j-r-gensym (glum-mode 1)) > > because they will not be equal. > > Thus, the only change needed is in documentation. If they are equal, why do they need to be distinguished? Also, if we name lambdas, arent they becoming just as functions? What is the advantage of named lambda over named function? Sorry I am not so fluent with elisp yet, so I am trying to understand. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 06 10:58:41 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2021 14:58:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49679 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0mX3-0006xj-3A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 10:58:41 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:49048) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m0mK2-0004dK-Aw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 10:45:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58068) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m0mK2-0002Jv-3L for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 10:45:14 -0400 Received: from smtp5-g21.free.fr ([212.27.42.5]:42566) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m0mK0-0002AN-93 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 10:45:13 -0400 Received: from ravel.localnet (unknown [2.15.208.149]) (Authenticated sender: ocert.dev@free.fr) by smtp5-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24E6260ADB; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 16:44:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Olivier Certner To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2021 16:44:56 +0200 Message-ID: <2012643.zr9gB0fHWZ@ravel> In-Reply-To: <8b715c19-e6bf-90a8-75a2-3ae3e1ace563@daniel-mendler.de> References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <8b715c19-e6bf-90a8-75a2-3ae3e1ace563@daniel-mendler.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: neutral client-ip=212.27.42.5; envelope-from=olce.emacs@certner.fr; helo=smtp5-g21.free.fr X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 06 Jul 2021 10:58:37 -0400 Cc: Daniel Mendler , jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Hi, > > either. People do `M-x eval-buffer' their .emacs files, and since we're > > using `equal' here, this happens to work -- almost by accident. > > I understand. This argument is pretty similar to Drew's argument, but > realistic. The problem is that people expect idempotence when evaluating > their ".emacs". This property breaks as soon as we require `eq` and if > we want to retain this behavior we have no alternative than keeping the > current behavior. I agree with all this. We should aim for idempotence, as much as practical. Just wanted to add that there is really no other simple general way out than naming lambdas (by whichever mechanism this is done) and matching on names. Indeed, even with `equal', and no changes in some lambda's code, idempotence is not guaranteed: Just use in the code some macro that calls `gensym'. Each evaluation of `lambda' will then raise different functions by `equal', since their code differs. -- Olivier Certner From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 19:58:06 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2021 23:58:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53751 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m1HQc-0000MX-1w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:58:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:32828) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m1HQZ-0000Lv-3A for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:58:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48916) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m1HQS-0000J7-F5; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:57:56 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m1HQR-0000S8-WB; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:57:56 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Arthur Miller In-Reply-To: (message from Arthur Miller on Tue, 06 Jul 2021 11:46:01 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:57:55 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, michael_heerdegen@web.de, mail@daniel-mendler.de, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > If they are equal, why do they need to be distinguished? If file A adds such a hook, then file B adds one that is the same, then you unload file B, testing for "the same hook" would leave none. But A won't work right without its hook. My scheme would put on two distinct but equivalent hooks, then delete one of them, leaving the other in place. In some cases, that's what you want. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 19:58:06 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2021 23:58:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53753 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m1HQc-0000Ma-Av for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:58:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:32842) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m1HQZ-0000Lw-Dv for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:58:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48914) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m1HQR-0000J3-PV; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:57:55 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m1HQR-0000RG-Ed; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:57:55 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Tue, 6 Jul 2021 02:37:07 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:57:55 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, michael_heerdegen@web.de, mail@daniel-mendler.de, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] It would not be hard to write a function to remove, from a hook, any lambda expression that has a certain symbol as its name. (memq SYMBOL LAMBDAEXP) can test whether LAMBDAEXP has the name SYMBOL. We could make remove-hook do this if the supplied argument is a symbol with no function definition, or whatever other interface is desirable. It wouldn't be hard to do this with doc strings either. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 07 22:12:09 2021 Received: (at 47992) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2021 02:12:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53905 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m1JWL-0002Gd-A1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 22:12:09 -0400 Received: from mail-oln040092074101.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.74.101]:45792 helo=EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1m1JWI-0002G7-5y for 47992@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jul 2021 22:12:07 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=E9KF3OkbyJ5UOf5jiOL+musuEZ3kGTtnrIiFdL8YxpFZTIwyPRMVIPQnjiXKC+OBr3hePeYcBPL9mSuXhR3KNmYgdcJewYMwl/ArXz+QSELcLh6jS3I5mLgy154PFbVQSkj82B8H0iM0ne5y4Bb976OSgdkfnNQCkNpzIuSi6U6vOPRGWfcOpQTGq9I8d/LD5sup3rqXeZUNuK8vksx74s7ZvwscsF0tGOondNSC/H5l+LN2xqMbq/BK0uA4AgOJ6otpTR/vqHEO2GsEibzEjq7uV6wB+4HLO+OvwvjuxAVRQuzBS2a+h6TlzwDqCFdu9fgl1qNSrXrlmAKw8C4SWA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; 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Thu, 8 Jul 2021 02:12:00 +0000 Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::48) by DB3EUR04FT043.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0c::452) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4308.20 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 02:11:59 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:77673C06361BF92C06199232F4F4851A9E8891FE91E63D2E84D49EAEB2A6D4F4; UpperCasedChecksum:F5640F2F8CDB2031F8F2CAD2A0805C647C88DD42F5EEABF14A8AE581146FF5EE; SizeAsReceived:7919; Count:46 Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::656a:1596:f5dc:12ea]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::656a:1596:f5dc:12ea%9]) with mapi id 15.20.4308.022; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 02:11:59 +0000 From: Arthur Miller To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#47992: 27; 28; Phase out use of `equal` in `add-hook`, `remove-hook` References: <87mttdh57n.fsf@gnus.org> <877di6udfy.fsf@web.de> <87wnq6opfo.fsf@gnus.org> <875yxqrekx.fsf@web.de> <87sg0uokh8.fsf@gnus.org> <87eece66tc.fsf@web.de> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 04:11:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 07 Jul 2021 19:57:55 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Content-Type: text/plain X-TMN: [TAcuzmGxq65dRfKKisuRpICoPqf8WG5z] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM7PR02CA0018.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:100::28) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87mtqx8sgh.fsf@live.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from pascal.homepc (81.232.177.30) by AM7PR02CA0018.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:100::28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4308.20 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 02:11:58 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 30b1cd2f-decc-4b56-f805-08d941b5c477 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB3EUR04HT236: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 0QGRRgZKfe6YdPDkHKjY2SdzpDyDFshqN5ErA0++AnMbXZSURVDBJcXYOtECeCRhHNzSNfWfrPIFrJfL+cfsqpPccm0Qlu8omYvigguQIfQlbmORwQqksaJAJ/o7T0gd6zZ0Iyyb5q+2H2RVGEZ+n8b1JQG14p1YWcBS1lTpfodfo91C49P4E25fGzVBelVvJ67nPGJnVV6wY3HuqihZjYiOVoI/Ep7ojHDcUuK5mqojbIVokPMqfE2PE+Ew1IAY1/6W50t9xC1DDBdN1QTFrS2wfYln0MX4MR2dRjJst3lj2pe4+sxIQRi3LxURGxDOIYEE6sEa5cmqWv7I+BuW96LQlTQLCkBThcz41ZR3a7J4ntmUJG8pMawKBkEAfuqjmQExtEDregg3gSdc8nLhSXrXPwXzIXAoIKAU4vA/NvBHb1W7p4EaUYLGJm3N5D1i X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: gsFE+3WrKSxbvnAld9Z2X6VGx532U/xdzNqpoehR70r/IKyCGFSYmpPtJj2kI94QNz0utm6ACMhU7/oLm1CkeCwIlzWHa0DCrImB4BJZqA3xBg5mvMU0iUB6jdPOvBeZr45kilO9bB+kfud3RzFjFw== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 30b1cd2f-decc-4b56-f805-08d941b5c477 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2021 02:11:59.5427 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB3EUR04FT043.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3EUR04HT236 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 47992 Cc: jakanakaevangeli@chiru.no, michael_heerdegen@web.de, mail@daniel-mendler.de, 47992@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > If they are equal, why do they need to be distinguished? > > If file A adds such a hook, then file B adds one that is the same, > then you unload file B, testing for "the same hook" would > leave none. But A won't work right without its hook. > > My scheme would put on two distinct but equivalent hooks, > then delete one of them, leaving the other in place. > In some cases, that's what you want. Ok, I understand now. Yes, indeed, put name tag would be one solution to the problem. It trades memory for cpu time. From unknown Mon Jun 23 14:58:46 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator