From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 01 09:10:50 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Feb 2021 14:10:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59418 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l6Zuk-0004rk-2o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 09:10:50 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:37092) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l6Zuh-0004rb-16 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 09:10:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50740) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l6Zug-0001wh-Ni for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 09:10:46 -0500 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:55328) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l6Zue-00053c-Em for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 09:10:46 -0500 Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DTqbN6j8CzFt4h for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:10:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1612188635; bh=dQPlkXt3AlYFDCs9tdkabpnjZ1Bjdkf9yTMEXl0wOyM=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=ipuDlbRX4I1JDk7UV7QXXxXScASB58WKk8oLRjUUDQy147gNCzMmo7BGaR26lXHZk ok8xYg7QNotTJvgmENmEUrU/n18DeaHwHDgMRuJWcUIgvFKnw31cBeKDtKDnQZl8GI 9rpALz4qi6L0oiHHKtA6eO8a5H8r3oLOoCmIsXVI= X-Riseup-User-ID: EEFAA97C303E0E7963B640FBA181674DDCAC4BFB3FC3AF5559A6741EC7488C3B Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DTqbM6Wvgz5wHQ for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:10:23 -0800 (PST) From: marmot-te To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 26.1; explicit the info files installation Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 14:10:13 +0000 Message-ID: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Received-SPF: pass client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=marmot-te@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) Hello, It is a common issue for many new emacs users to figure out how to get the info files for emacs, for its packages, and eventually for others systems packages. Somes probably never figures it out. It is indeed sad since we all need theses nices info files. I suggest to add a notice in the info/dir file itself (or at least an info link easy to notice, be it to the FAQ or not) that explicit that you probably need to install system-wise : - extra documentations packages such as bash-doc, emacs-common-non-dfsg (non-free repository for debian). - ensure texinfo is installed in order to compile documentation when new emacs packages are installed. Another step may be to trigger a message when an user type "C-h RET" and there is no "emacs the editor" manual (so obviously the user does not have the info files installed when he is asking for it). I already write about this subject here : https://teddit.net/r/emacs/comments/jm4e0k/rtfm_quest_or_the_info_files_like_it_was_supposed/ I know this is specific since it probably only affect debian / fedora & derivatives users but I have no idea to what are the steps for the OS to find and install others info files. -- <:3nn~~ <:3nn~~ <:3nn~~ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 03 00:48:25 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Feb 2021 05:48:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36559 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l7B1b-0007ZI-O4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 00:48:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54526) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l7B1X-0007Z3-KQ for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 00:48:21 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35921) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l7B1S-0006QU-DC; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 00:48:14 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1l7B1R-0007es-1B; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 00:48:13 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: marmot-te In-Reply-To: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> (message from marmot-te on Mon, 01 Feb 2021 14:10:13 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 00:48:13 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: 46236@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I suggest to add a notice in the info/dir file itself (or at least > an info link easy to notice, be it to the FAQ or not) that > explicit that you probably need to install system-wise : > - extra documentations packages such as bash-doc, > emacs-common-non-dfsg (non-free repository for debian). > - ensure texinfo is installed in order to compile documentation > when new emacs packages are installed. In principle this is desirable, but it may be complex. For instance, on various GNU/Linux distros the method is different. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Mar 06 09:26:03 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2021 14:26:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36318 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lIXsY-0004ZN-P1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Mar 2021 09:26:03 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:36837) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lIXsW-0004Z2-8T for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Mar 2021 09:26:01 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8919F160062 for <46236@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:25:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1615040753; bh=xGS2OqqTlfSOGEpuTKSqHEaCgr76IU76bXaEOzjyeKA=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=IdqjBi0Jp5WWBbtbiyQ87NiMs3EwAKPoFxYfZwriOcWH+GtMqUZg74YBsxPNorBLy xk1jDBw034iogvmqkYTi7JtnQlrc9yM4Hl6wd9um3Gtyi7PfmYdpeve1mdDdz8wHl0 vzwuddvH+u2HM7F0G/0vsClFDOzGDrZZtAs+ect8DdMLNRYTnA2V4Fsl1ctX3QMa6U RfOiUGDg4KTWy5Ynh7KapQqQhHfK3Wm4qgV/jrYH0Au49r66yTiDg4OT6XpDO+nkap kEKmCHiKMCzHEq3YhRiBdjmOaAXkXfG17sjklwxCMohwjw/MgpV/Tl9XOPRSHg8vFk ltHTzVKlIdhRg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Dt6N05yJfz9rxT; Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:25:52 +0100 (CET) From: Tomas Nordin To: marmot-te , 46236@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation In-Reply-To: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 15:25:50 +0100 Message-ID: <87sg584avl.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) marmot-te writes: > Hello, > > It is a common issue for many new emacs users to figure out how to > get the info files for emacs, for its packages, and eventually for > others systems packages. Somes probably never figures it out. > > It is indeed sad since we all need theses nices info files. > > I suggest to add a notice in the info/dir file itself (or at least > an info link easy to notice, be it to the FAQ or not) that > explicit that you probably need to install system-wise : > - extra documentations packages such as bash-doc, > emacs-common-non-dfsg (non-free repository for debian). > - ensure texinfo is installed in order to compile documentation > when new emacs packages are installed. Ever since I discovered this issue I have been curious if this (somewhat tragicomic) split in interpretation of what is free documentation will be resolved some day. It has the effect that GFDL documentation will have to be installed from Debian non-free archives. The ease of such installations seem to be the sole reason Debian is not an endorsed Gnu/Linux distro by the FSF. -- Tomas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 07 01:11:59 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2021 06:11:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38775 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lImdz-00013G-Hj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Mar 2021 01:11:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37756) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lImdy-000133-7e for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Mar 2021 01:11:58 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53573) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lImdt-0004me-39; Sun, 07 Mar 2021 01:11:53 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lImds-0000cW-6e; Sun, 07 Mar 2021 01:11:52 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Tomas Nordin In-Reply-To: <87sg584avl.fsf@posteo.net> (message from Tomas Nordin on Sat, 06 Mar 2021 15:25:50 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <87sg584avl.fsf@posteo.net> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2021 01:11:52 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I think it is a shame Debian took that position, and I hope they change it. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 20 23:20:10 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 03:20:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56606 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZ3PO-0005pw-8T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 23:20:10 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f177.google.com ([209.85.215.177]:38859) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZ3PM-0005pU-TO for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 23:20:09 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f177.google.com with SMTP id w10so28431023pgh.5 for <46236@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:20:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=l26SPaDhO/fiO4dmsL1M/LZBmm+APEYLbzwlBv5o5sU=; b=rjCyhxdaHZ+zP1U2EePKUuBKhSUslwRgI2jl6xfOh+yXix5+isheCxuK0Bnm2HJRZB anQ+hZsvjk+BQbsCCdGHFAw4BJ+lvLQrz93giC8g8n570mgPhJkC4Gjjcgv+gRwTgkI1 WdQpJXkL8gSyt9jmiLu6abe+OcvyqnMXOH8bSmTvh0Pjz1xpcGJ4L8sb+LS06uLGRRAT CoCsTtW7OTNqbdWF0p1XWzq+zCfuTdMQUM+ydSeVDnYCufUaaiuYnH7QPYvVTrfBoOpO JYBiLM9FPuMwmkwVRkjBCTRB2BO4K/VjwMow74ll/d3HSAotQyFHo3PeMR30PMrmW7Dv 6pxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533eocrb15LQRu0tYU0eb3XwXKuzxAW0QQ9OcOZbT73HpQ7Djrbf u6YdW+Ev4y/vO2ZOi8au7O9VHbJGZd8QbVXHUOg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwkny3IzKmGgfrdj5ZeoqWaAkzMZ7XPMQ1mHml810XEgbvEaBGFLoOTvxUehsMOMcWVdece4OAUDbt4iVN2tt0= X-Received: by 2002:a63:942:: with SMTP id 63mr20453923pgj.67.1618975203411; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 22:20:03 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 03 Feb 2021 00:48:13 -0500") References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 22:20:03 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation To: Richard Stallman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: marmot-te , 46236@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Richard Stallman writes: > > I suggest to add a notice in the info/dir file itself (or at least > > an info link easy to notice, be it to the FAQ or not) that > > explicit that you probably need to install system-wise : > > - extra documentations packages such as bash-doc, > > emacs-common-non-dfsg (non-free repository for debian). > > - ensure texinfo is installed in order to compile documentation > > when new emacs packages are installed. > > In principle this is desirable, but it may be complex. For instance, > on various GNU/Linux distros the method is different. Let's assume for the sake of argument that we only want to do this for Debian and derivatives. That would require adding the non-free repository, thus indirectly encouraging users to use proprietary software. Is that something we really would want to do? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 05:03:15 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 09:03:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56980 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZ8lO-0006QI-TG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 05:03:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50180) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZ8lM-0006Q2-6n for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 05:03:12 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52739) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lZ8lD-0003Mv-90; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 05:03:06 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1724 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lZ8kk-00063q-P6; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 05:02:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:02:23 +0300 Message-Id: <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 20 Apr 2021 22:20:03 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 22:20:03 -0500 > Cc: marmot-te , 46236@debbugs.gnu.org > > Richard Stallman writes: > > > > I suggest to add a notice in the info/dir file itself (or at least > > > an info link easy to notice, be it to the FAQ or not) that > > > explicit that you probably need to install system-wise : > > > - extra documentations packages such as bash-doc, > > > emacs-common-non-dfsg (non-free repository for debian). > > > - ensure texinfo is installed in order to compile documentation > > > when new emacs packages are installed. > > > > In principle this is desirable, but it may be complex. For instance, > > on various GNU/Linux distros the method is different. > > Let's assume for the sake of argument that we only want to do this for > Debian and derivatives. That would require adding the non-free > repository, thus indirectly encouraging users to use proprietary > software. Is that something we really would want to do? That depend on what we say. We don't have to mention Debian or their repository explicitly -- which would also be better because other distros could have a similar problem. My problem with the suggestion is that I don't have a good idea where to add the message. We could: . display a special message when a manual is supposed to be part of Emacs; or . modify the message in case of a manual that wasn't found to better indicate that the user should try installing it We could also do both. But I don't think we should name the specific distros or their specific package names; that way lies madness of having to maintain those names forever. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 08:06:56 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 12:06:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57094 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZBd9-0005CT-Sf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:06:56 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f174.google.com ([209.85.215.174]:36373) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZBd7-0005CG-5P for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:06:54 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id j7so20175657pgi.3 for <46236@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 05:06:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hIji7e3whnkMwtcOuCEw9o2zHqVaBz2cAPb68OClyrY=; b=n8VyGuAhzUXP5FnK7NF/mT4DDHCKJ3R51w5ueaE+6Ho3zKSqt+CCUEMo/mo4m2HXfb jLlPBYxbQm+dWUNT/J/5lvxFkFtMlNd/XLLeqXFz1l23BkCd77herCSswhNzb+zXMpea PYpWKrHaUKkn4oNjOb1fpu729q4EUnLa3FfXI1iQ94MafOVqRUihdqU4n5nB8FU508ZQ 9jm+7t3PmmCokdOL+QZgxkVhUmLQhdgJ7aJ3bHg/OdJf5Ye/1rxGFrKNIvcNYz3QNEL2 4YVHQ92sBUIjeVGfzA2JPuoAK3F47tP0RV3WNdsOB5mVQ2Bz9D0MntVvbNFkUtv0tQZj 1Mtg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530iOrze42Wg/BwGZwLIUa9ewazruu+M2E+ujFp7FWsh7ZZMOigH DISBEie2WFn9nygldYFJclMoPQhJmUI43kk274s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzEFimXXYYntiM9MIXF7yPZbLWU6dECX/0XurbWLnfLLkKYUB33pKbTTqiPgckm3tMYh7OkFbLv/8GdGXq2xcg= X-Received: by 2002:a63:5b5c:: with SMTP id l28mr21260964pgm.363.1619006807400; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 05:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:06:47 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:06:47 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > That depend on what we say. We don't have to mention Debian or their > repository explicitly -- which would also be better because other > distros could have a similar problem. I have never seen or heard of any other distribution ripping out the manual and distributing it separately from Emacs itself. Do you know of any examples? > My problem with the suggestion is that I don't have a good idea where > to add the message. We could: > > . display a special message when a manual is supposed to be part of > Emacs; or > . modify the message in case of a manual that wasn't found to better > indicate that the user should try installing it > > We could also do both. When I say `C-h r' without `emacs-common-non-dfsg' installed on my Debian machine, I get "Info file emacs does not exist". I get the same message when trying to follow the Info node reference from `C-h f pcase', but it is complaining about the elisp manual. Perhaps we could just find where that message comes from, add a list of manuals that should always exist, and warn the user there if they don't. > But I don't think we should name the specific distros or their > specific package names; that way lies madness of having to maintain > those names forever. Given that Debian and its derivatives have a fairly dominant position, and are the only ones suffering from this, I think this maintenance overhead would be small. Our job also got easier recently since Debian abandoned their "emacsNN" packages (where NN is the major version) in favour of just versioned "emacs". So the packages used to be named "emacs24-common-non-dfsg", but now they are just named "emacs-common-non-dfsg". IOW, I think this would be easy to do technically, but it would need us to recommend the "non-free" repository. I'm therefore starting to think that this should be the responsibility of Debian. They should solve the problems that they have created for their users; such a warning should be added by *them*. Doesn't that make more sense? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 08:17:29 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 12:17:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57105 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZBnN-0005SG-Au for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:17:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35084) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZBnJ-0005S1-OA for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:17:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54728) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lZBnE-0004Mn-4U; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:17:20 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2163 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lZBn5-0003X4-Cq; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:17:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:16:58 +0300 Message-Id: <837dkvrfwl.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:06:47 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:06:47 -0500 > Cc: rms@gnu.org, marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > That depend on what we say. We don't have to mention Debian or their > > repository explicitly -- which would also be better because other > > distros could have a similar problem. > > I have never seen or heard of any other distribution ripping out the > manual and distributing it separately from Emacs itself. Do you know of > any examples? It doesn't matter. I'm saying that we shouldn't name them as a matter of principle, so as to avoid the few pitfalls you've mentioned, like talking about non-free repositories. > When I say `C-h r' without `emacs-common-non-dfsg' installed on my > Debian machine, I get "Info file emacs does not exist". We could, for example, say something like Info manual for Emacs was not found; consider installing it. which would be more explicit and clear, I think. > Perhaps we could just find where that message comes from It comes from Info-find-file. > IOW, I think this would be easy to do technically, but it would need us > to recommend the "non-free" repository. Which is why I suggest not to name them. > I'm therefore starting to think that this should be the responsibility > of Debian. They should solve the problems that they have created for > their users; such a warning should be added by *them*. Doesn't that > make more sense? We could indeed decide that it's not our problem. In fact, the current situation is tantamount to doing just that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 08:32:48 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 12:32:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57137 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZC28-0005rQ-H2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:32:48 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47210) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZC23-0005rE-ME for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:32:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619008358; bh=Ad4x0ERQcdt7j/TPq4VT/j6U9HZeFWySXpMqQH6Bsvo=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=a+sb/Ioi+TciGE4KrOA9P5VWBoxQmXaSZfmw8Q5VozF4b7NirktuEA3P4ou+su6fA UkW4jMYsHSMyEsE3EtRC78lOK/+Qk9k/YLA2othhLtCThH3qqgFsbrBueintL++w+u ImEKszEYL9krJpnodkjDJ+Yyc7qzCD2rh4Zb9U2swhnP7ylY/22tlhX9u18SgVsyaw i5PV7rfkkb2g9WhS8hI6AlB6o5b6s2GPkOM/US+lcmYeyMD1rAYJOeDwqWuaOk6xdP WX7AJPB7mp+G3FOeDgCvcDxswkSeBw6a22+hNlLTNpdWud8OFlVhLf9gt8yBDXhJUM y3OHO+E1EF7Eg== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:32:38 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <192e82f20f22020cd392@heytings.org> References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > When I say `C-h r' without `emacs-common-non-dfsg' installed on my > Debian machine, I get "Info file emacs does not exist". I get the same > message when trying to follow the Info node reference from `C-h f > pcase', but it is complaining about the elisp manual. > A suggestion: when the info files bundled with Emacs cannot be found, download them from info.gnu.org (after asking the user if they're okay with that) and install them into ~/.emacs.d/info. The info files that are supposed to be bundled with Emacs are not that big (about 5 MB, gzipped), and something similar (downloading data from a gnu.org site and install them into a ~/.emacs.d subdirectory) happens with M-x list-packages. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 08:40:08 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 12:40:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57152 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZC9I-00062k-3l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:40:08 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f173.google.com ([209.85.215.173]:36769) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZC9G-000624-II for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:40:06 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f173.google.com with SMTP id j7so20256206pgi.3 for <46236@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 05:40:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=e1rW2uQuk8OiSeZIyjR0oysMiMWM1qLkP2y1hqhwSLM=; b=Aj+KAn08KuYL2ZY8fyb5zsoakr1pddrrqXCUFv9EhhwEUUmDF6Tgt3yPDCIqGQc17c y3sxXtby+xh8CULdbtHB3yqZ67BowrAiag5gFttHV3ei89LythKwHT82J7FF8GrUkeJ/ N3y0tbOiluAKXl70t+y1t8o2zge3eBxFyWqbuVE53JS2HAVZSy1QNJ0CUyBk5vune83M SC+EuOYWRAyC7epWbCPtWZ2EXn/Nn+l4HLNWwSIfJmsLHMDwp/cqrxxmsEOsqILwAjiW UQ1ZQFxtA3NsBIccXpCDJBbX35or5VslW0L/jSHix6PzxudytXeW88ZlDImExdhPXPYZ obTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533w/oDqpky4foRuMb1AgfVLHE8VZturKR8DkWw+LiiWos4YzGuQ B1DJe0gds08t88SxPjQt5fFhrp4SlXlibBx+fIE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyFMy9fZq9ri8bEZfoYPeXnueC1pOcWD+VKLQ5ezAvwzFw72HZUVughavbpnXBjEfunqIdQZjLr3NxZkO7ih/w= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:f0b:: with SMTP id br11mr10715116pjb.179.1619008800844; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 05:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:40:00 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <837dkvrfwl.fsf@gnu.org> References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> <837dkvrfwl.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:40:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > It doesn't matter. I'm saying that we shouldn't name them as a matter > of principle, so as to avoid the few pitfalls you've mentioned, like > talking about non-free repositories. Right, I see now what you are saying and I agree. >> When I say `C-h r' without `emacs-common-non-dfsg' installed on my >> Debian machine, I get "Info file emacs does not exist". > > We could, for example, say something like > > Info manual for Emacs was not found; consider installing it. > > which would be more explicit and clear, I think. That's very good, yes. It points the user to the solution. >> I'm therefore starting to think that this should be the responsibility >> of Debian. They should solve the problems that they have created for >> their users; such a warning should be added by *them*. Doesn't that >> make more sense? > > We could indeed decide that it's not our problem. In fact, the > current situation is tantamount to doing just that. I think the message you suggest above imposes almost no burden on us, so that would be my first choice here. That message is also useful even in cases where there is no shenanigans from the distribution, but just an info manual that wasn't installed. If anyone asks us to do more than that, our reply could then be that it is their problem to fix. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 09:01:22 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 13:01:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57179 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCTq-0006ZF-98 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:01:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45004) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCTo-0006Yz-Fb for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:01:21 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55350) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCTi-0004JJ-GN; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:01:14 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4881 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCTX-0000dj-O1; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:01:07 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:00:49 +0300 Message-Id: <8335vjrdvi.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <192e82f20f22020cd392@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:32:38 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> <192e82f20f22020cd392@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, marmot-te@riseup.net, stefan@marxist.se, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:32:38 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > cc: Eli Zaretskii , marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, > rms@gnu.org > > A suggestion: when the info files bundled with Emacs cannot be found, > download them from info.gnu.org (after asking the user if they're okay > with that) and install them into ~/.emacs.d/info. We already have the latest manuals at https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/emacs.html but what you suggest will require to maintain several versions back, which is a non-trivial complication of the release procedures that are already quite complex and tedious. So I don't think we should take this issue to be our problem to that level. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 09:11:26 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 13:11:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57186 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCda-0006nE-Km for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:11:26 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f170.google.com ([209.85.214.170]:46847) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCdX-0006my-3n for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:11:24 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f170.google.com with SMTP id s20so5775158plr.13 for <46236@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g/UQsJdUP37EDm2qFS9Y4O5ZdgnoWMHBAFsZ+K/ud18=; b=W2mlMZFvVVlX0W+p/B4hQ1jtI0X6Sc6JUM9KNOPnyHh5TN6bi58tFBDKDMviGwyyjG NISxuHy6vPMZNhvkWb/wVA7A3Rk7oa8OIXHqk5GCvaPnQDokQZNTyRDqu3La9kcy1FYu 4abxhsdj696xfhSG8mOfgDSaOtTgq4W18QRxUGFWCXPSIXkrl3FmG01tVMKyuZnIvwIX ZYgtq9qJ9gZph0tzStqRmhOCZuXkMm1y4/MuJDX+NNM3PddCcVK/C2DtEkbFshzjzY// Hjw47fGIpLGpxV1JiWAqKyBfxf43SNJKvPo0JgisMByP4j/bL2CwZuAogQqBfESBqBXQ L/Dw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533xjUpDTNkVGQRJXxYKigPQ4LRywnhYDTWInvjXMU/sufQzc1IB 6aoASU++TQZC+YJPO4HB2zZ/DzRESc06HHpJAtI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwgFVMsItJqjTdwbWPcPtJlzON1hACIMqYiAX0lGD2WEGN+yohvgyoDbENcXOQDdVm28/44dCLBKVVlvPbupqU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e9c4:b029:eb:4626:feba with SMTP id 4-20020a170902e9c4b02900eb4626febamr34919079plk.39.1619010677467; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:11:17 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <192e82f20f22020cd392@heytings.org> References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> <192e82f20f22020cd392@heytings.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:11:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation To: Gregory Heytings Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Gregory Heytings writes: > A suggestion: when the info files bundled with Emacs cannot be found, > download them from info.gnu.org (after asking the user if they're okay > with that) and install them into ~/.emacs.d/info. The info files that are > supposed to be bundled with Emacs are not that big (about 5 MB, gzipped), > and something similar (downloading data from a gnu.org site and install > them into a ~/.emacs.d subdirectory) happens with M-x list-packages. I like the suggestion. It would be a fun hack, if nothing else. But I think the Debian maintainers might be upset, and it would be easy for them to then disable this functionality. So in some ways, I'd rather that users of Debian complain so that they fix the root cause: that they don't ship GFDL manuals. OTOH, that is exceedingly unlikely to happen any time soon. Perhaps the Debian maintainers won't care, and this is a fine solution to the problem that they created. It really is unfortunate that Emacs is so crippled on the most popular GNU/Linux distributions, so we might have reason to take a more aggressive stance. So yeah, I don't know... From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 09:47:49 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 13:47:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57229 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZDCj-0001Nt-G1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:47:49 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47310) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZDCe-0001L6-Mb for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:47:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619012859; bh=08IxvNL+2jM5+ayjRfGPoCqhibofIDWDikgjyHhHe90=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=uP4RKNZj9+fOvhYMc3k/qc59QnsizTHfm+H1RxC1cI1Wcm0GfKu4AkTN8YhxV7Z+F /TEJkoa4Vc9FcK9/a1FZcyz+F6sdKUn5Worah66gsu8lFob6CxIKNOYK+mxfBlPTB+ JZe8AuH2lueNb04FnFa3ScZODjkvbSmfLYdmtDm24PXZuYWT0eoF1cISyTMUwTWmHa nez5h/XASvUqHxnR2tTFi/bS6DR1mAI4Jojme0LpFQBEli0hLiPCr4QZxO5MIX5+QF +IjeXtLxK6qGQHTaBb4FzUqVBHVJuJZcWzIZKNMl6vvl5/biIxr1nYogCHEsTX+2T7 e3FSlJ9GQJZ+g== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:47:39 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation In-Reply-To: <8335vjrdvi.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <192e82f20f0ff16820ef@heytings.org> References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> <192e82f20f22020cd392@heytings.org> <8335vjrdvi.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, marmot-te@riseup.net, stefan@marxist.se, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> A suggestion: when the info files bundled with Emacs cannot be found, >> download them from info.gnu.org (after asking the user if they're okay >> with that) and install them into ~/.emacs.d/info. > > We already have the latest manuals at > > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/emacs.html > > but what you suggest will require to maintain several versions back, > which is a non-trivial complication of the release procedures that are > already quite complex and tedious. So I don't think we should take this > issue to be our problem to that level. > In fact this makes it even easier than what I thought: it would suffice to add 60 files in the https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/info/ directory. Of course there's the version problem. Perhaps an "emacs-version" file could be added in that directory, it would be compared against emacs-version, with a warning when the files are for a more recent version. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 09:54:17 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 13:54:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57244 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZDJ3-0001Xw-9B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:54:17 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47328) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZDJ1-0001Xn-14 for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:54:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619013253; bh=nyMGgI7oOTs9mSMNbbJZXsLFpM3dJDeWtAxjqNx9aKY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=eTETlWl8qX2gfAtz5AnPhrCXPE3NDf6IT9X4kodU+Wr/EIR5vX1lTx9BMxmQ49TGS 35nr5go9f3CR5fhPsE/twJ1+5GYQmV8hCOK/UPbCmzszuZf+70qXLMZYHoWV8RtK0X +6/FnLRvCUdJDYTuBz4cCLH7iirkH6ELt64F8MZVSiyydcMSm1iJ2Zd7D/UjWNKL8l Ot0RZ+lya5TeUMaEAbKJ4fjMaMefjQRqG2ShJbJKJQvWNvPEQ9nZRrCJwFHR5lBjm1 XR2OqqdEfwJRCgrHXCnXFOh7IgpsaVVLIDIqj7T1OouBvgQx/QZObkTQTLG8NkoCKV Z5/6c4YBMAgkA== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:54:12 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <192e82f20f3b71f5def0@heytings.org> References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> <192e82f20f22020cd392@heytings.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > But I think the Debian maintainers might be upset, and it would be easy > for them to then disable this functionality. > Why would they be? They already distribute these files in a separate package, so AFAICS they have no reason to prevent their users from doing the same. > > So in some ways, I'd rather that users of Debian complain so that they > fix the root cause: that they don't ship GFDL manuals. OTOH, that is > exceedingly unlikely to happen any time soon. > I fear it is, indeed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 10:13:14 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 14:13:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59312 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZDbN-0002WL-U4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:13:14 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:33536) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZDbL-0002W9-Vp for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:13:12 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f169.google.com with SMTP id h11so11301812pfn.0 for <46236@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:13:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZmWAgVI7jetOs7FaK2oGZfZc0XazIAVQoa13xxRxGMc=; b=qRI5ptcKkSpdAu/DBPL8UzzGTBAQ6frxHH8NA48+I0gjjPxoh49In9j67njLdF+ijy OWkwk56zglEFLR2GeStvl9tmRKP9ywrphCfUXd59uvlnuW/GJvjDIwdoUjbWdr4sBlwX wnTBEFr+Vgnr3a3EBOUat39TkIfIhfo+o0xrPCFjE6nD1SJKI4+k6izpJtcM+2dWfmfN STuJ6iBGTg+iEZeei7XYsi50Fym8YkYBXZ2x5wY8M/XoumiuiAIkMjlsPgfMNT4tTKhH Nd9GOzJ6Hhef3uY2PLI1RnS1ayOEj67xt+EU8Lwv5DOAMnSdFLWhdPKIbrddFBLIc8ok Qcyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531PnPHhJ7qIcZuUrZq5sdud1PdS4S8F/2J3GAOtAD+6HlWg1y0G VFf+QYGN6H1KI+PBUBFmU8XSeM5eaDILLAPUxKo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxfKoRNCki/oRvkZKxlI7ujVuG9rfzD5wR2C0nLtbZQoC0eKxKY4rXvL8i1/6YKYvp2mOflnoivDnriYaNF4Uk= X-Received: by 2002:a63:5b5c:: with SMTP id l28mr21719862pgm.363.1619014386516; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:13:06 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <192e82f20f3b71f5def0@heytings.org> References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> <192e82f20f22020cd392@heytings.org> <192e82f20f3b71f5def0@heytings.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:13:06 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation To: Gregory Heytings Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Gregory Heytings writes: >> But I think the Debian maintainers might be upset, and it would be easy >> for them to then disable this functionality. > > Why would they be? They already distribute these files in a separate > package, so AFAICS they have no reason to prevent their users from doing > the same. I mean, I don't know, obviously. But we would in a sense short-circuit their [IMO incorrect, pedantic and damaging] decision to mark GFDL manuals "non-free". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 11:32:52 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 15:32:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59508 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZEqS-0004fE-6q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:32:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57180) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZEqO-0004ew-EW for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:32:50 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58035) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lZEqI-0001US-Bo; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:32:42 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lZEqE-00030u-0T; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:32:38 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> <837dkvrfwl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: AFSPC ISS Human to Human bullion Jyllandsposten Plot X-Ran: .\-go3^Bk9T:NL1JkF?j;aGqy|z%|,a=e?9CYfG$G$|Z? (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:40:00 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) IMO it's obviously Debian's responsibility to fix this. If they want to remove an info file, they should replace it with a stub that says that they did so, and explains how to get the original. It would seem simple to do so. But given that this has not happened in 15 years, it seems unlikely to. See eg https://bugs.debian.org/961593 (But I'm sure this must have been discussed before that.) (This problem is of course not specific to Emacs info files.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 12:34:53 2021 Received: (at 46236) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 16:34:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59646 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZFoT-0008WJ-7L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:34:53 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f176.google.com ([209.85.215.176]:35771) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZFoQ-0008Vy-0X for 46236@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:34:51 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f176.google.com with SMTP id q10so30392960pgj.2 for <46236@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:34:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2CIwMdw7WdnxEVLyRDhPT2OLTqGgo1trV9SqpgIUh2U=; b=Vafk5XvxfAJJEaw6JT5BwygcZgiBjFvhprDl8gQSubFIRwOZEYQ7fza7rBWtZA/8ZC X3l/9Hf9AkVyBZxTowOEzd0MTQfR676XkVh0ewG+8ZPFz8GP73tnyyvSxwXM3EP0E9ms r6gN7aVvH+0p1OZtb9QcuvdYD9aB0zKJtER0FZvZswaZwItCYrumyTzXQam9cPyj26+6 0Y3NPdaScEzgMQlfhwjLc7rp+fdC9jmMvkmaNR4gsT/hAZXxfjUOnXmWGvbtxIDMCu2n uyyGCvBg5PRW9hB6pitmqvwgAvHuTXCuXTmECA1h27EHO8L5pBUeH/GVxtsqz2S+B7+q NIvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533g+2rDwGqzADTCSoloRjIcIU8VpU15L3lDM+DjTWiNraHQKxyb XP1jERIptN0WcQyN2FEBKM0fhqdA2XxhXzHfMr4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzPus9ac4SApVjuxS8anXL48SC+gxm08XHpqBYU0FGKsEP8ECYTf4HWO/4GMaT2aix5WVzV/zRWFrd9Z2s8ego= X-Received: by 2002:a63:5b5c:: with SMTP id l28mr22254357pgm.363.1619022884345; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:34:43 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <875z3bq3p6.fsf@host.localdomain> <83fszkqacg.fsf@gnu.org> <837dkvrfwl.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:34:43 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#46236: 26.1; explicit the info files installation To: Glenn Morris Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 46236 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , marmot-te@riseup.net, 46236@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) tags 46236 fixed close 46236 28.1 thanks Glenn Morris writes: > IMO it's obviously Debian's responsibility to fix this. > If they want to remove an info file, they should replace it with a stub that > says that they did so, and explains how to get the original. > It would seem simple to do so. > But given that this has not happened in 15 years, it seems unlikely to. > > See eg https://bugs.debian.org/961593 > (But I'm sure this must have been discussed before that.) > > (This problem is of course not specific to Emacs info files.) That's true. So I installed the improved error message suggested by Eli, and I'm closing this bug. From unknown Fri Aug 15 21:27:36 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator