GNU bug report logs - #45806
26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

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From: help-debbugs <at> gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: tracker <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#45806: closed (26.3; `menu-bar-separator')
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:04:02 +0000

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Your message dated Tue, 12 Jan 2021 19:03:40 +0200
with message-id <835z42dr4j.fsf <at> gnu.org>
and subject line Re: bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'
has caused the debbugs.gnu.org bug report #45806,
regarding 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'
to be marked as done.

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help-debbugs <at> gnu.org.)


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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 16:32:31 -0800 (PST)

This variable (defconst) doesn't seem to be documented anywhere.

It seems to be used for menus in general; it doesn't seem to be tied to
the menu-bar in any way.  And its only doc is the doc string, which says
only "Separator for menus."  Could it be renamed to remove any mention
of the menu-bar (keeping the old name as alias)?

How is it actually used?  Is it used only in (some?) toolkits?

It's a defconst (why?), so presumably you shouldn't change it.  But
changing it doesn't seem to have any effect anyway, in MS Windows.  If
this is hard-coded then why is it even needed?

In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2019-08-29
Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362
Configured using:
 `configure --without-dbus --host=x86_64-w64-mingw32
 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=-O2 -static -g3''

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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 45806-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 19:03:40 +0200

> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 08:34:04 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Cc: 45806 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now.
> 
> Not a great reason not to rename and alias.

Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the
project maintainers?

> > > How is it actually used?  Is it used only in (some?) toolkits?
> > 
> > Look at menu-bar.el (obviously), it's used all over there.  On all the
> > toolkits and also in no-toolkit builds.
> 
> I already looked at all occurrences in the Lisp sources.

Then I really wonder why are you asking all these questions.

> AFAICT, _none_ of those occurrences show how it's used
> in the sense of explaining its effect.

You see the effect as soon as you look at the menus which use it.

> I'm looking for info about its implementation and what
> it actually does - info presumably available in some C
> code.  HOW it does what it does.

The HOW is always in the code, so filing a bug about the documentation
is not going to reveal that: we won't describe the implementation in
the documentation.

So I'm closing this bug report.

> See also the question about whether it's used only by
> toolkits.  In GUI Emacs on MS Windows, for instance,
> the effect of a separator is a continuous separator
> line, while the effect with `emacs -nw' seems to be a
> pair of hyphen chars.

Each toolkit/UI variant produces its particular visual, but they all
do, and the effect is the same: to visually separate between groups of
menu items.

> > See above.  If you really want to see the effect of changing it
> > (why?), I think you will need to rebuild Emacs.
> 
> You think so?  How about having the doc specify that,
> or whatever the actual behavior is.

I see no reason.  You are looking for the kind of internal details
that are always found in the code.

> FWIW, this bug report is a result of seeing this user
> question:
> 
> "Is it possible to change the menu separator?"
> 
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/62717/105

Not every question means something is wrong with our documentation.
Sometimes the answer is "use the source, Luc".

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