From rgm@gnu.org Wed Sep 23 01:14:48 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 23 Sep 2009 08:14:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.1 required=4.0 tests=AWL,X_DEBBUGS_NO_ACK autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8N8El5J017654 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:14:48 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MqMzu-0002HZ-E0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 04:14:46 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MqMzo-0002Ce-FF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 04:14:45 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=47858 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MqMzn-0002Bu-WE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 04:14:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:52927) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MqMzn-00032X-9f for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 04:14:39 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MqLnW-0005IS-E9; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:57:54 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: toolkit dependence of frame-height X-Spook: MDA government SAPO Treasury fissionable TELINT KGB X-Ran: 8H)V'0Q@]xf*+S"]mkc*/jN0v>}t\s_vWC(&ft{C/Q)6oC[}~NnanDd5rJ X-Hue: magenta X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:57:54 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) As far as I can tell, the result of (frame-height) on GNU/Linux depends on the X toolkit on the following way: gtk : excludes both tool-bar and menu-bar motif : includes tool-bar (height = 2?), excludes menu-bar lucid : like motif no toolkit : includes both tool-bar and menu-bar (height = 1) -nw : includes menu-bar The motif and lucid values seems inconsistent with the Elisp manual: These values include the internal borders, and windows' scroll bars and fringes (which belong to individual windows, not to the frame itself), but do not include menu bars or tool bars (except when using X without an X toolkit). I am happy to update the documentation, if the current behaviour (and my understanding of it) is correct, or not going to be changed. (It is rather confusing though.) Some previous discussion: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2007-12/msg00103.html and to some extent bug #25 From jan.h.d@swipnet.se Wed Sep 23 02:16:08 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 23 Sep 2009 09:16:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8N9G5JQ026801 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:16:07 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MqNxF-0000Ni-8l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:16:05 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MqNx9-0000LK-7R for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:16:03 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=50541 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MqNx8-0000LA-VN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:15:59 -0400 Received: from proxy1.bredband.net ([195.54.101.71]:40458) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MqNx6-0006ci-V7; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:15:57 -0400 Received: from iph2.telenor.se (195.54.127.133) by proxy1.bredband.net (7.3.140.3) id 49F5A15203A86476; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:15:55 +0200 X-SMTPAUTH-B2: X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsttAC+EuUpV4S1uPGdsb2JhbACBUZkdAQEBATe6XYQbBYJLggE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.44,437,1249250400"; d="scan'208";a="46148819" Received: from c-6e2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.110]) by iph2.telenor.se with ESMTP; 23 Sep 2009 11:15:55 +0200 Received: from [192.168.123.108] (host-90-232-232-82.mobileonline.telia.com [90.232.232.82]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with SMTP id 268827FA07B; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:15:54 +0200 (CEST) References: Message-Id: <8DD65DD8-2514-4213-B98B-F0D43BCF817E@swipnet.se> From: "Jan D." To: Glenn Morris , "4535@debbugs.gnu.org" <4535@debbugs.gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7C144) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7C144) Subject: Re: bug#4535: toolkit dependence of frame-height Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:15:17 +0200 Cc: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. Your understanding is correct. Please update the docs. However, it has been an old goal to unify this, i.e. make all toolkits behave as Gtk. Jan D. 23 sep 2009 kl. 08.57 skrev Glenn Morris : > > As far as I can tell, the result of (frame-height) on GNU/Linux > depends on the X toolkit on the following way: > > gtk : excludes both tool-bar and menu-bar > motif : includes tool-bar (height = 2?), excludes menu-bar > lucid : like motif > no toolkit : includes both tool-bar and menu-bar (height = 1) > -nw : includes menu-bar > > The motif and lucid values seems inconsistent with the Elisp manual: > > These values include the internal borders, and windows' scroll > bars and fringes (which belong to individual windows, not to the > frame itself), but do not include menu bars or tool bars (except > when using X without an X toolkit). > > I am happy to update the documentation, if the current behaviour (and > my understanding of it) is correct, or not going to be changed. (It is > rather confusing though.) > > > Some previous discussion: > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2007-12/msg00103.html > > and to some extent bug #25 > > > From rgm@gnu.org Wed Sep 23 20:28:54 2009 Received: (at 4535) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 24 Sep 2009 03:28:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, X_DEBBUGS_NO_ACK autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8O3SqmF021657 for <4535@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:28:54 -0700 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Mqf0m-0000su-8B; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:28:52 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: "Jan D." Cc: "4535@debbugs.gnu.org" <4535@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Re: bug#4535: toolkit dependence of frame-height References: <8DD65DD8-2514-4213-B98B-F0D43BCF817E@swipnet.se> X-Spook: Marxist undercover ASLET Noriega Comirex investigation X-Ran: k?(^hl,uA3,2D_ZAuJeA5Dn,hk|jctVevI9,xnix9GaW]db_Z7sBrV,15Yk<]]LyHzT+N& X-Hue: yellow X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:28:52 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Jan D." wrote: > Your understanding is correct. Please update the docs. Will do. Do the menu bar and tool bar always have height 1 and 2 respectively, or are these numbers variable and/or approximate? From rudalics@gmx.at Thu Sep 24 00:04:15 2009 Received: (at 4535) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 24 Sep 2009 07:04:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with SMTP id n8O74DhO025547 for <4535@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:04:15 -0700 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Sep 2009 07:04:07 -0000 Received: from 62-47-53-69.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.53.69]) [62.47.53.69] by mail.gmx.net (mp019) with SMTP; 24 Sep 2009 09:04:07 +0200 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18ecokzMhweCjziVRmcRxEh0X4X4UncGoQxlFtKKe 7JfIfKdH6uQknf Message-ID: <4ABB19E6.1060505@gmx.at> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:04:06 +0200 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Windows/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Glenn Morris , 4535@debbugs.gnu.org CC: "Jan D." Subject: Re: bug#4535: toolkit dependence of frame-height References: <8DD65DD8-2514-4213-B98B-F0D43BCF817E@swipnet.se> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.71 > Do the menu bar and tool bar always have height 1 and 2 respectively, > or are these numbers variable and/or approximate? It depends on what "always have height 1 and 2" stand for. On Windows I can easily make the menubar occupy three "lines" of my screen estate. And AFAICT such behavior can make frame-size calculations completely random because Emacs (probably due to limitations of the Windos API) does not allow me to get the actual size of my frame in lines. martin From rgm@gnu.org Thu Sep 24 10:45:10 2009 Received: (at 4535) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 24 Sep 2009 17:45:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, X_DEBBUGS_NO_ACK autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8OHj9mF028031 for <4535@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:45:10 -0700 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MqsNQ-0007U6-2z; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:45:08 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: martin rudalics Cc: 4535@debbugs.gnu.org, "Jan D." Subject: Re: bug#4535: toolkit dependence of frame-height References: <8DD65DD8-2514-4213-B98B-F0D43BCF817E@swipnet.se> <4ABB19E6.1060505@gmx.at> X-Spook: diwn CNCIS ASDIC CDMA UFO security Iran Watergate X-Ran: TSyoo%afYYIVeZral([Kd9B,.W8Sjo8&el%mg1''#ll9N7ZkJbq9XdfsJ&"pH6EC[>W)"n X-Hue: yellow X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:45:08 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii martin rudalics wrote: >> Do the menu bar and tool bar always have height 1 and 2 respectively, >> or are these numbers variable and/or approximate? > > It depends on what "always have height 1 and 2" stand for. Well, I hadn't thought it through, because lines may have a variable height. Duh. And I can increase the buffer font-size many times over without changing the result of frame-height (or -width), so now I don't understand what "number of lines available for display" in the doc of frame-height means. I guess it means number of lines in units of the default face? So I guess that's what my original question meant. > On Windows I can easily make the menubar occupy three "lines" of my > screen estate. And AFAICT such behavior can make frame-size > calculations completely random because Emacs (probably due to > limitations of the Windos API) does not allow me to get the actual > size of my frame in lines. I'm not going to be able to document the Windows behaviour in any case; maybe you'd like to do that? From rudalics@gmx.at Fri Sep 25 00:40:06 2009 Received: (at 4535) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 25 Sep 2009 07:40:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_SBLXBL,RCVD_IN_SBLXBL_CBL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with SMTP id n8P7e4Es031684 for <4535@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:40:05 -0700 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 25 Sep 2009 07:39:57 -0000 Received: from 62-47-44-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.44.18]) [62.47.44.18] by mail.gmx.net (mp062) with SMTP; 25 Sep 2009 09:39:57 +0200 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19lKjox0JNl7mh9100LmITsigFuzhpYk7z+G6ljkq fVkobd8RB3tEAw Message-ID: <4ABC73CC.1040101@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:39:56 +0200 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Windows/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Glenn Morris CC: 4535@debbugs.gnu.org, "Jan D." Subject: Re: bug#4535: toolkit dependence of frame-height References: <8DD65DD8-2514-4213-B98B-F0D43BCF817E@swipnet.se> <4ABB19E6.1060505@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.68 >> It depends on what "always have height 1 and 2" stand for. > > Well, I hadn't thought it through, because lines may have a variable > height. Duh. > > And I can increase the buffer font-size many times over without > changing the result of frame-height (or -width), so now I don't > understand what "number of lines available for display" in the doc of > frame-height means. > > I guess it means number of lines in units of the default face? So I > guess that's what my original question meant. Most frame variables seem to have a historical interpretation which somehow got lost with the evolution of GUIs and the adaptations to different operating systems and toolkits. Thinking of frame sizes in lines and columns is asking for trouble in anything but a text-only environment. Documenting the current behavior seems next to impossible to me. > I'm not going to be able to document the Windows behaviour in any > case; maybe you'd like to do that? I can't. I don't understand it. But I'll gladly read anything you come up with for other platforms ;-) martin From rgm@gnu.org Sat Oct 10 17:09:53 2009 Received: (at 4535-done) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 11 Oct 2009 00:09:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, X_DEBBUGS_NO_ACK autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n9B09qBD022178 for <4535-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:09:53 -0700 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Mwm0U-0000iD-2z; Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:09:50 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: 4535-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#4535: toolkit dependence of frame-height References: <8DD65DD8-2514-4213-B98B-F0D43BCF817E@swipnet.se> <4ABB19E6.1060505@gmx.at> <4ABC73CC.1040101@gmx.at> X-Spook: Al Jazeera Jiang Zemin subversive IRA radar Mena Centro X-Ran: 0iA5L*Jz+beV-0:cDz*#Io-N[>&Mvu^Z(hdgw#D;OO\j} X-Hue: cyan X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:09:49 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4ABC73CC.1040101@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:39:56 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have tried to document this as well as I can (though I don't feel I understand it all). From unknown Tue Jun 24 19:11:42 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:24:35 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # A New Hope # A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away # something happened. # # Magically this resulted in the following # action being taken, but this fake control # message doesn't tell you why it happened # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator