From unknown Tue Aug 19 21:02:46 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#45125 <45125@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#45125 <45125@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics Reply-To: bug#45125 <45125@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 04:02:46 +0000 retitle 45125 Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics reassign 45125 emacs submitter 45125 Andreas R=C3=B6hler severity 45125 normal tag 45125 notabug thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 08 14:47:08 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2020 19:47:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59880 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmix2-0005Jy-GQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 14:47:08 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:48702) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmiwz-0005Jq-R1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 14:47:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52096) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kmiwu-0007R2-8L for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 14:47:01 -0500 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.133]:35389) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kmiwn-0000N7-Js for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 14:46:59 -0500 Received: from [192.168.178.39] ([82.207.239.161]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mgebs-1kET3t0HDo-00h98d for ; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 20:46:49 +0100 To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: =?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=c3=b6hler?= Subject: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics Message-ID: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:46:47 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3+RWx9zE/sSAV4FQXZkbtvYZiXmlaYlTbbuwFpRJEE/k6XcweyP 8UFbfksTf2sQeDsRN1ZdQgi0K8XNeZ8j0iBWwlj/kKkwlNGmeyImwnUos3hKQPaWbipoHDc seGRGfN2cgOHaa4ZNK445f+iXYlEpo8iefCQsJ06xfGmCohDlS1uTfxWR8iPmeCDkGMjky7 At8qmzCDRgXK6rKDbeA1w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:mfZXw6XivT4=:KYPiBD1M2PzcPzWz6Bzmdn BHUCJ07szs9jCtJhCjpJeu1gwDJYllSC++iTsKs2pHhIvyLaI9YGf17+DhRF6YZ6/09QxB9SF Z4GY4bBu0DTcYcfWk/7j06bJ8pcy3mogGYalUeFMSwBkru4ah14ExaZlNHxSKov4CyFoBIiah lr6WCmI3DxTBr8F65e8O9hJltNp9c4sdfuZoPYB1yQyBW4AEXBns0AEz5POIlq0/6QSL8la0q JzbnR8xeVR4KpuMXunssZdhVoUwdlrz28esQ1+0ukXmE73q+TY34Z+lfsIBGor8AmAEruCAtb PwViNTd0Lomu8Niaaw8AQVeudEwbKyIKzAokLVLLTYoWB5w7mDwz8mH3UoI3XApcxu1/dyYYs HAz+7ZLfwqO39cbmCtxxml8Q5W23Q4eSz/HZ0znlcDkyTtazJKpHJn8tOjJz6h5qj8Zccydmk ecL0oRmf6zaltVLS+t3RfsXT4egmIs8= Received-SPF: none client-ip=212.227.126.133; envelope-from=andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de; helo=mout.kundenserver.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Recipe: Evaluate defvar forms at bottom in order using C-x C-e, which runs command eval-last-sexp here. Evaluate the message-form C-x C-e message-form outputs "a: 2",  i.e. "a" was dynamically updated This contradicts saying in File: elisp.info,  Node: Defining Variables: "But if SYMBOL is not void, VALUE is not evaluated, and SYMBOL’s value is left unchanged." (defvar a 0) (defvar a 1) (defvar a 2) (message "a: %s" a) --- In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.14.5, cairo version 1.14.0)  of 2020-11-19 Repository revision: 3963aea4f4a22da0c1fb8ca8ca80b59c58373811 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11604000 System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 8 (jessie) Configured using:  'configure --with-modules --with-mailutils' Configured features: XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG CAIRO SOUND DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY INOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE LIBOTF ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE XIM MODULES THREADS PDUMPER Important settings:   value of $LANG: de_DE.UTF-8   locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: ELisp/d Minor modes in effect:   tooltip-mode: t   global-eldoc-mode: t   eldoc-mode: t   electric-indent-mode: t   mouse-wheel-mode: t   tool-bar-mode: t   menu-bar-mode: t   file-name-shadow-mode: t   global-font-lock-mode: t   font-lock-mode: t   blink-cursor-mode: t   auto-composition-mode: t   auto-encryption-mode: t   auto-compression-mode: t   line-number-mode: t   transient-mark-mode: t Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml easymenu mml-sec epa derived epg epg-config gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache json map text-property-search time-date subr-x seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader cl-loaddefs cl-lib sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting cairo move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs) Memory information: ((conses 8 146139 6477)  (symbols 24 30198 1)  (strings 16 65257 1523)  (string-bytes 1 1053500)  (vectors 8 12265)  (vector-slots 4 176703 11288)  (floats 8 22 41)  (intervals 28 209 13)  (buffers 560 11)  (heap 1024 12583 926)) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 08 15:25:30 2020 Received: (at 45125) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2020 20:25:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59934 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmjY9-0006Lg-QW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 15:25:30 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56154) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmjY7-0006LR-C6 for 45125@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 15:25:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RQ6Wuv6fATWDuHOoPwHaBotX8k/Oy672Ztj3NFgaPQM=; b=FT06OR8MYmlxotCIRZ1tVNOCsC JbL5xJuG6QagDWT5ICo2eTGRer17vdrs3zEfn9qM4olr7PP8J+2uqUhOVvRTKMhOfISJRRHu/7jAj 9FzPpsofGCv2BYHHdOzxqj4tv96FFL4V1OMb4gT5mvhjif81cViHd+bE7jIierO0f4dQ=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kmjXy-0007Wo-AM; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:25:21 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Andreas =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler?= Subject: Re: bug#45125: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics References: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> X-Now-Playing: Oneohtrix Point Never's _Magic Oneohtrix Point Never_: "The Whether Channel" Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:25:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> ("Andreas =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler=22's?= message of "Tue, 8 Dec 2020 20:46:47 +0100") Message-ID: <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Andreas Röhler writes: > Evaluate defvar forms at bottom in order using C-x C-e, which runs > command eval-last-sexp here. > > Evaluate the message-form C-x C-e > > message-form outputs "a: 2",  i.e. "a" was dynamically up [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45125 Cc: 45125@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Andreas R=C3=B6hler writes: > Evaluate defvar forms at bottom in order using C-x C-e, which runs > command eval-last-sexp here. > > Evaluate the message-form C-x C-e > > message-form outputs "a: 2",=C2=A0 i.e. "a" was dynamically updated > This contradicts saying in File: elisp.info,=C2=A0 Node: Defining Variabl= es: > > "But if SYMBOL is not void, VALUE is not evaluated, and SYMBOL=E2=80=99s = value > is left unchanged." See NEWS: ** 'eval-last-sexp' now handles 'defvar'/'defcustom'/'defface' specially. This command would previously not redefine values defined by these forms, but this command has now been changed to work more like 'eval-defun', and reset the values as specified. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 08 15:25:35 2020 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2020 20:25:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59937 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmjYF-0006Lx-3N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 15:25:35 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56168) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmjYC-0006LY-U6 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 15:25:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=VQAWFKXUi8huRr7WzkDSCaOJG4uhHi7qOyb1EN2Afas=; b=GfcfWlpBYPUYaYqUnHNR9wj466 GBKSa0TXDEuSjechR7zz2KLstcio0y37bZ9dH5+BiSxyR7vvkj2OdkgsO/eVmrt8j6dhyoYIOR9MF jTLSzBKxiI2OgxaSZv7dD/hOzPaM/Vbi80QMFxxHShnHPNcmHQVbOLNye+ZhuUlRSn/I=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kmjY5-0007X1-98 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:25:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:25:24 +0100 Message-Id: <87mtyo9haj.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #45125 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 45125 notabug close 45125 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 45125 notabug close 45125 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 08 16:54:31 2020 Received: (at 45125) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2020 21:54:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60026 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmkwJ-0004Uc-7p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 16:54:31 -0500 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:37746) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmkwG-0004UK-8w for 45125@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2020 16:54:29 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0B8LnJlb046794; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:54:22 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=DWj2spC0IDhOhsTzPqyXqq3ySj0kwZEoWy9zEcgEenw=; b=leMbXJst+ec8SbL0FLKHbZdzHi/NA6SJogMmoYrXIn2flNcbbsHha8m30kQr+bJByDF+ fUvvrhIQhSUq1cIPxLAH15d8USx7o3F258rt5T0vsT4rYQEoe206G6/LKNt2/exQMNjv hPCHE/V0NAtlJ3uAmsCRQN8SNMMzbJHgT36Gxzxr6THQbu4NhLlxmY6aezEIoNK26V9g 153W+cEcXDO4nsZxwt67M2rMXh2qOXD1hY2DY86IOiKfC6dH+vJ7+1jmra5IfQZfNngP AVKNLvJiDBj7DCycCWAbwEEDoxHsa4ku13LjfTC1ModwIoLJ4ihqUpVXU73XOnSihimW tQ== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 357yqbw9yc-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:54:22 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0B8LieAL067376; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:54:21 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 358kytjfyj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:54:21 +0000 Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0B8LsGop014851; Tue, 8 Dec 2020 21:54:20 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 13:54:15 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , =?utf-8?B?QW5kcmVhcyBSw7ZobGVy?= Subject: RE: bug#45125: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics References: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5071.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9829 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012080135 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9829 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1011 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012080135 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45125 Cc: 45125@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > See NEWS: >=20 > ** 'eval-last-sexp' now handles 'defvar'/'defcustom'/'defface' > specially. > This command would previously not redefine values defined by these > forms, but this command has now been changed to work more like > 'eval-defun', and reset the values as specified. Yes, well, this does mean that you can no longer realize the old behavior. It's good to be able to interactively evaluate an individual defvar, to have updated text take effect. But by putting this on `C-x C-e' it means that you can no longer select a whole bunch of code that might include some defvars, and be able to count on the defvars having their normal behavior (eval only when not yet initialized). It might be good to have some way of getting the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, prefix args of various sorts are already defined, and there's no easy way to have a prefix arg that's orthogonal (i.e., can apply across the other prefix-arg behaviors). Of course, we still have `eval-region'. Still, there's a loss here, even if there's some gain. IIRC, the main motivation for this change was the repeated complaint that `C-M-x' doesn't update a `defface'. How we ended up with a wholesale change of `C-x C-e', including for `defvar', I'm not certain. Seems a bit of a shame, no? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 09 02:34:30 2020 Received: (at 45125) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2020 07:34:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60863 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmtzZ-000097-Rh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 02:34:30 -0500 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.133]:46337) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmtzY-00008m-2X for 45125@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 02:34:28 -0500 Received: from [192.168.178.39] ([94.134.177.126]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MOQyE-1kUekN0618-00PtRO; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 08:34:13 +0100 Subject: Re: bug#45125: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics To: Drew Adams , Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=c3=b6hler?= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 08:34:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1G1TfKQkgNeiMBjwBSYMU5RXP0zwOyMgjo6FuLdtXrr0uGqEqLn bL38eU5LttRfwD+C92A50zYZsoUykdkyOZHlOofDeFZYAVFjkrn+q5Zi0itzjdmRplDGDVz JkIEQIiN+JsUCGke068GWrhOsaSROxFY4ldhBK60/4dKFLFF3VLJwcq8ombTQp3Qt2MOnZu IxG4c+llcOEr1llr6e1Iw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:HwkpQ7LWq1M=:Dd88zdRqe5NgaUXQ610ymt /veU1N6XKbYsq4ytqoSk5Jgfy8K/uhLNNCNTc/MYidEQDfKOTXLPcHYbWDrOSMsoKBEIAGPE/ adXjjnDkTLD68XUmQW1k3+7xZNQEaVRmuVazT05gPP5cDmmWcguvb2Qbwh2avz2wPO2SKhLfP lrauXQ197X0j3IndwRZUIsAT1AivrxS4KFux0VcB9oOD56kZdDdPRdOKdcgJvb7TWLDPtSDYa 2m4F40ucRJmxTLRsakMugVKs4ns3tXacsFQu6ORbI27StPYI2L6hbnTFYbpJqfod7QzbV9oef nkxblSIKzsOqLjR16I5z25orJji2qXzVW4Zb4H226+LhzxX/dtKzZtVhRkLbL2eMGRqqqHGAL MQU0BRNKjB7sibyQ3RR5u2JP84czZsq/JWEgYi0vOM7rotFrUw/8TACw89C4wE7ANVeSBs5E6 yKkYTzMz0Weh2GpEMNwVb9zVY0saJMw= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45125 Cc: 45125@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) IAW: evaluating interactively may yield a different result than loading that code from a script? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 09 07:57:09 2020 Received: (at 45125) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2020 12:57:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33007 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmz1p-0001yq-BK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 07:57:09 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37238) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kmz1n-0001yU-RZ for 45125@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 07:57:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RHJuy2hcnSQmkx0GEB1Nq+U3TAUR00cdRZVsMjBtKY4=; b=JB7QH2neVpMzAswaYXZRqjg7N5 QwsUguIP+p1aB1cmnkabdCWUcuQwXXCiuycylxmqx+XHROTpknlMVui0SDNw4uejTIxzLBzJCl+Jm YhJ5viYQ9CfvY8qlPFajuZs/beEBywUkKp2hWfv3PrjYHV+JlgBHTZPK4aA29zvvhvJQ=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kmz1e-0001AJ-Sm; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 13:57:01 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Andreas =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler?= Subject: Re: bug#45125: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics References: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAGFBMVEVkWFWlmJGahHuJ dW5JODUfGBjRtan////fYGFmAAAAAWJLR0QHFmGI6wAAAAd0SU1FB+QMCQwiLouH4zQAAAGySURB VDjLbZNBcqswDIaVmHRdw4zXTbmAQelb+02lPQv7ALQz3P8IlWyYYIgWTMZffv2SbMHF3jswQ9tw qgIuFi3i0MERXNHaztr3Jh2BLQHnVCX8gWTQWW/e4XYGt+k2fcVbipSIOBKvwNEU/ot7ZAqh4ThJ IZwV8AjGSyNEwkSRNqA2AA1x5eHmUi5AqoFdlmW2994PfKhqFmJt6++c4rN/eFsKsDCmND32oEQL b5KKz+Dnc3mkk7n6L0tHCauR6Gn+As31rLSTWUFsz2OXbL88+RfAuo807fr4HlcyDjL37U4iwbe5 63GLV5TOtz5igmAGBb2/9I1/NhghwJAF/t8vVsBkRffp3YK7R0eSSt17ROfwS3I/AaBKDLoZq4sy XkHrUVNVALM7quJRA8zlovuBShGyhaSyHVENVPAB2CPt34/0IYOVZyUpSST8BKMT0BaQ9kCvQrcA fQ2uehX6EI2vzS/b3pyBy6BRwC8UBEDhFWAplSIfQVeuYgVR3DJA9OuYmMs5UQa95F9Lkl3bAd2z LTutsSkapj0JUDw8bOsfGUI+15F0Yy/u5X/Q6PrKjz/uCgZm66j0+QAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVh dGUAMjAyMC0xMi0wOVQxMjozNDo0NiswMDowMEr0/B0AAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjAt MTItMDlUMTI6MzQ6NDYrMDA6MDA7qUShAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: CocoRosie's _Put the Shine On_: "Where Did All The Soldiers Go" Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 13:56:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: ("Andreas =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler=22's?= message of "Wed, 9 Dec 2020 08:34:11 +0100") Message-ID: <87blf35e92.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Andreas Röhler writes: > IAW: evaluating interactively may yield a different result than > loading that code from a script? That has always been the case with the C-M-x command. C-x C-e is now consistent with that command. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45125 Cc: 45125@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Andreas R=C3=B6hler writes: > IAW: evaluating interactively may yield a different result than > loading that code from a script? That has always been the case with the C-M-x command. C-x C-e is now consistent with that command. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 09 14:03:46 2020 Received: (at 45125) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2020 19:03:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36102 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kn4kc-0003kz-HF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 14:03:46 -0500 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([217.72.192.75]:54905) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kn4kY-0003kh-8C for 45125@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 14:03:45 -0500 Received: from [192.168.178.39] ([94.134.177.126]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MtOOm-1k0JuL2Xgk-00unt1; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 20:03:27 +0100 Subject: Re: bug#45125: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics To: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> <87blf35e92.fsf@gnus.org> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=c3=b6hler?= Message-ID: <3bc0ccfa-099e-b93f-64fb-6610d4cd68e6@easy-emacs.de> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 20:03:26 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87blf35e92.fsf@gnus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:J6fP8zX1MYvZcapIXbfdJsYFVURG34s5arcuCnpvUYUnomqp2QJ CEzO/G4xO1XS4w0JNfmnPn08fUO1c7GjWYrefYY9xYrUXEP3e0xUNOV625J3OK5FIipguP+ ypRymsBhErRI2Fe8ZUICOifGI1qvu3oLX8EEvPiq0qnMAqtHF/u6nverIJ1F8BXaqBPRFW4 vWMssCgDtV1vIltFTcK8A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ibOdTWyvU6I=:7FW9aCSK0JMsG7pse9x2Ki rM3r5jI/zw03wr3qWLhHIUrh6zKHzNedyzMLuYqlTQur//wiShgglA/Iibd+F4B0XmtZyBipD Ba43BZhi7Vg/4q4zFhouzUxJVQ0vQqCs7aS5cKxdlBqK/KuZV6djwx4Li4LzaU1adxj18hDbb hbl9kwFuOGIzaJ5wfDkzHPgwzgt5p9ec+5vvmLIL5fqOVPvwjcEGZNZ/1/TEEr6pVTCh1LZXD aB61NNWlpZp72CslMA2iv295oz6ouQgkgnJ/lNH4iQDznd5k85zJyJq/fLKWMqs5kja2iK0UW zsrdvsHrCtNiIZOxA9SiG9PEeaj33+KJGqoVlyYO5jCOSuUMkSTkP1EWs77aC1bp0yaXcStOQ mHP9qpFi37QeDr3QX+t9sfZmxr6BtyroUCRq3vhSSCIn4OstW2at7sknSpjnG+J6WGD9Kxw1x Q/Vu2lRfLNFIhgMdj2IRP6TT/SvmX0U= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45125 Cc: 45125@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 09.12.20 13:56, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Andreas Röhler writes: > >> IAW: evaluating interactively may yield a different result than >> loading that code from a script? > That has always been the case with the C-M-x command. C-x C-e is now > consistent with that command. > Understand that thought as kind of convenience-feature. However, problems for testing and debugging arise from this inconsistency. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 09 14:17:23 2020 Received: (at 45125) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2020 19:17:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36124 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kn4xm-00045H-So for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 14:17:23 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41606) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kn4xl-000454-It for 45125@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 14:17:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=59aJrOPjI0oiZ74NdzDfJrFqIAKOcgpMf1v0IT1aTDE=; b=X1EgeRl6LLu/lycXUHeT7Sm5V7 LqxhhQryfKwnwcbmVzkNMrV3xM610GehXw99CeJgwqiGfRBp6FqpmQ0oQCfnXMMROGyz0KSrGaLsV vTKmFEHowQAK1RiCUHK2N4x/vpfEZzJC0vFf+orxcqTWnzqmwsRJuaXseqer4BRmEeas=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kn4xc-0004ft-8W; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 20:17:14 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Andreas =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler?= Subject: Re: bug#45125: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics References: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> <87blf35e92.fsf@gnus.org> <3bc0ccfa-099e-b93f-64fb-6610d4cd68e6@easy-emacs.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEV7YWGAZWChdDdz T02DW0WUaTyLY0O/jS3////xjG5rAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+QMCRMPHpoObToAAAGo SURBVDjLdZRtbsMgDIZT7QI7wqRt2v/aYf9nygGWNQeoCVfo9WcbA0mlWiopPP6I4SXTVO3kz9fT 6U2fLxO4xWowz+8272BYfgaYngE2YCOgeKljlIGDASsVK5VfIIjqBdO21JVmGBOw1Qg1ybDN5pPm jNHXSNfOlkEASTLegRmKA/HwELL6nBxEyKGV1uFjIY/41G1A1ggUlxt759c7SXBIGYh0P4IDomsR 8KWtspbBBmruH50yCquAGsCNqL6WbXyPIB0QBiDvzIZQ/3iDCL0O1i3YBoDGLWL2PiRFglok2LSB COnCNRlaUGlnnlZGGJng1sVQgL5tq4oR7gARLnoqpfARzLKtUc8y3VpXTVekOpPi7WCarmYgzqKQ 1qkAE5Eu4VFG02HWNWE1RHzoYggHAFfJc+Ym4Ye3El/s+urAJSog4Si+N2mDNnCJ5gi7F+U2m4g1 cT+sdaRaII0I3NVgDr0+0qF4vYAyFBqXSOSTknkS7d/PIuTSEc73BR+B3Xk6H6/ihB8y/lFT5wBh latZZHHLELJILFvHrkT8XTPaxyWl+o2Bfy5i+pILZg5PAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIw LTEyLTA5VDE5OjE1OjMwKzAwOjAwc4atYgAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMC0xMi0wOVQx OToxNTozMCswMDowMALbFd4AAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Aksak Maboul's _Figures (2)_: "Excerpt from Uccellini" Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 20:17:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3bc0ccfa-099e-b93f-64fb-6610d4cd68e6@easy-emacs.de> ("Andreas =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler=22's?= message of "Wed, 9 Dec 2020 20:03:26 +0100") Message-ID: <87czzix009.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Andreas Röhler writes: > Understand that thought as kind of convenience-feature. However, > problems for testing and debugging arise from this inconsistency. Eval-region and friends still work the same as before. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45125 Cc: 45125@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Andreas R=C3=B6hler writes: > Understand that thought as kind of convenience-feature. However, > problems for testing and debugging arise from this inconsistency. Eval-region and friends still work the same as before. If you're doing an `C-x C-e' on a `defvar' form, it doesn't seem like it should be surprising that something happens. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 09 14:55:30 2020 Received: (at 45125) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2020 19:55:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36212 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kn5Yg-0007Ce-Dl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 14:55:30 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:42800) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kn5Yf-0007CR-0M for 45125@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 14:55:29 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0B9JoX4K042168; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 19:55:23 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=ySeDvHBU35QNIrP3a9aqYdF1AvBxizLAxCuMncxglGc=; b=jghq47Bk62o2Vfc4cJpmBodNHcZu7z7Ag7jpPLfB/bHqnB+XNn2Kugd3Z+wSGIEVnD4H djLXgMg2E23bsjvd1ZjRKc8f6QOypoRIrsO5EyskjEYKgJ5M6/c2zdB1t52vHXAcxYM2 6ZSWS5Laqyiaws51CUllgFFWjSqxpZtJyw/Xu6U/LmWeom/jsce/l2QPpX0VS/DH4o7V 8mWZxV4FFK/Cys/3/KA6n1RnENnpDmQ8HdRmQBgoMXD/9+Yb9ILokUFqgooLTEAUtFRn 4yCkCx2MFxFuJ9agjtBG1eiNKnPsMxhe5d0GBQbRuX9hpFoWOBo5hrh2cCfbhDISBZ4H 1Q== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3581mr21f3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 09 Dec 2020 19:55:23 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0B9Jo2Km164965; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 19:55:22 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 358m514bd8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 09 Dec 2020 19:55:22 +0000 Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0B9JtGEI008522; Wed, 9 Dec 2020 19:55:21 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <8b0e71df-4f37-4df7-9e84-35d32221c433@default> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 11:55:16 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , =?utf-8?B?QW5kcmVhcyBSw7ZobGVy?= Subject: RE: bug#45125: Subject: 28.0.50; defvar dynamics References: <01017daf-0373-e7fe-9cd1-34e27d1795e8@easy-emacs.de> <87o8j49haq.fsf@gnus.org> <87blf35e92.fsf@gnus.org> <3bc0ccfa-099e-b93f-64fb-6610d4cd68e6@easy-emacs.de> <87czzix009.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87czzix009.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5071.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9830 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012090138 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9830 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012090138 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45125 Cc: 45125@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > Understand that thought as kind of convenience-feature. However, > > problems for testing and debugging arise from this inconsistency. >=20 > Eval-region and friends still work the same as before. >=20 > If you're doing an `C-x C-e' on a `defvar' form, it doesn't seem like > it should be surprising that something happens. What if you do `C-x C-e' on a `let' or a `progn' or a `when' or a that contains a `defvar'? For acting on a single `defvar' we already had (and still have) `C-M-x'. Now we've lost the ability to use `C-x C-e' on an arbitrary sexp and have its contained `defvar's be handled as they would be by `eval-region'. At the very least, I think this (big) difference should be prominently called out in the doc (not just doc strings) - letting users know that, in effect', `C-x C-e' (now) behaves differently from `eval-region'. Some differences in behavior can be handy. But quirks can also lead to confusion. The previous behavior has existed for decades, and I'm not aware of any complaints about it. The case of `defface' is different. There, the (longstanding) complaint has been that it is the outlier (IOW, a complaint _against_ an exception) when it comes to `C-M-x'. (And that odd behavior is all the worse because `C-M-x' on a `defface' echoes the face name, just as if it actually did update the face definition.) Really, these constructs deserved (still deserve?) a serious general reconsideration, to perhaps increase consistency and user-friendly behavior. Instead, it looks like we got a quick reflex to a request out of the blue - after long longstanding behavior. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad that the question was at least raised again and finally considered. I just don't think we're really there yet. From unknown Tue Aug 19 21:02:46 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2021 12:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator